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rs2excelsior
2015-01-23, 08:46 AM
Hello all,

This evening I'll be running my first session of my first campaign as DM. I'll be using Pathfinder rules, and I've got five players--as of now, Human Monk, Warpriest, and Ranger, a Dwarf Druid, and something else (he hasn't gotten back to me about his character yet).

The thing is, based on the setting, arcane magic is basically nonexistent--arcane magic classes aren't allowed to the PCs, they won't be running across any Wizards (though possibly a low-level Sorcerer here and there outside of "civilized" lands). I want to know how this would affect the overall course of the game.

I know that magic items should be harder to come by, since most require an arcane creator. I think they won't be uncommon in the civilized areas, but more expensive/limited, since no new ones are being created. The main source ought to be old treasure hoards and rogue magic users on the fringes of civilization. Alternately, I can re-fluff magic items to be divine in nature instead, and still about as common/cheap as in the core book.

Any other thoughts? Adjusting encounters, etc?

Surpriser
2015-01-23, 09:41 AM
As this is your first campaign, I suggest keeping it simple.

At low level (which I assume you are playing on), the mechanical difference won't be that great - magic is rare at this level anyway, so simply removing arcane casters should not be a big deal.
The same goes for magic items. If necessary, the option to find them as treasure or buy/get rewarded with divine versions of it still remains, so you won't actually have to change the mechanics.

If you are playing at a higher level, the situation is completely different - the game assumes that PCs (and their enemies) have access to spells of all kinds after some point. So you would have to think very carefully about balancing the type of adventures and encounters you use. The fact that you do have divine casters helps here, although many important higher level spells are arcane only. Again, simply refluffing magic items as "divine gifts" of some kind can alleviate some of these concerns (and might even make for very interesting situations if each item is inherently keyed to a specific deity).

goto124
2015-01-23, 11:31 AM
Will it help to cap the maximum level?

JusticeZero
2015-01-23, 02:25 PM
That isn't "low magic", it's "No arcane magic". Redo any items that have prerequisite spells that aren't available to setting divine casters and continue as normal. Full divine casters just means that magic users all come out of churches, and doesn't actually change the amount of magic use. There will still be lots and lots of magic items around, just now, they're holy relics instead.
If you wanted to E6 it you could. It would keep top level Clerics from dominating everything. You already have a Druid - are they using their animal companion and wildshape? Because low level are very kind to them. You could actually break the Druid class into its spellcasting component and its class features and have two balanced and powerful classes.

Beta Centauri
2015-01-23, 02:40 PM
I recommend the approach Tolkien took. I don't know that he was deliberately going for "low-magic" as I'm not sure "high-magic" really existed as a style in or prior to his day, but there's not much "everyday" magic in his stories. What I'm primarily thinking about is when the elves give everyone cloaks and someone asks if they're magic. The elves are confused by this question and state that they're just made with skill. I think the same is generally true for the weapons, too: sure, some of them glow, but Aragorn's sword is just really, really strong and sharp.

So, you could still have enhanced weapons and armor and items, but just have them not be "magical," per se.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-23, 03:06 PM
Wouldn't that mean that the churches likely wield a lot of power? They're the only spellcasters after all, and the only source for magical items. You also have several divine casters, so depending on the world, they'll have ties to these churches.

redwizard007
2015-01-23, 04:21 PM
Guys, first campaign. This guy's head is probably spinning right now.

he already stated that arcane magic does exist. It's just rare. this will affect things at higher levels but it can certainly be done.

As for churches wielding lots of power... Well um... Kind of like RL pre 1800 or so.

Run your game man. Let us know how it goes.

rs2excelsior
2015-01-23, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the advice, all. To respond to some of it:


As this is your first campaign, I suggest keeping it simple.

At low level (which I assume you are playing on), the mechanical difference won't be that great - magic is rare at this level anyway, so simply removing arcane casters should not be a big deal.
The same goes for magic items. If necessary, the option to find them as treasure or buy/get rewarded with divine versions of it still remains, so you won't actually have to change the mechanics.

If you are playing at a higher level, the situation is completely different - the game assumes that PCs (and their enemies) have access to spells of all kinds after some point. So you would have to think very carefully about balancing the type of adventures and encounters you use. The fact that you do have divine casters helps here, although many important higher level spells are arcane only. Again, simply refluffing magic items as "divine gifts" of some kind can alleviate some of these concerns (and might even make for very interesting situations if each item is inherently keyed to a specific deity).

Yep, starting at level 1. I'm a bit concerned about balancing encounters at higher levels, though, since CR is based on a 4-man party of a fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric (or substitutes)--and the wizard is usually the top damage-output for the party.


I recommend the approach Tolkien took. I don't know that he was deliberately going for "low-magic" as I'm not sure "high-magic" really existed as a style in or prior to his day, but there's not much "everyday" magic in his stories. What I'm primarily thinking about is when the elves give everyone cloaks and someone asks if they're magic. The elves are confused by this question and state that they're just made with skill. I think the same is generally true for the weapons, too: sure, some of them glow, but Aragorn's sword is just really, really strong and sharp.

So, you could still have enhanced weapons and armor and items, but just have them not be "magical," per se.

I actually really like this idea. Then specific special powers can be divine blessings on the equipment. I think I'll go with this in general.

To be honest, the explanation of "it's magic, so it hits more accurately," especially for melee weapons, doesn't make as much sense to me as an extremely finely balanced weapon.


Guys, first campaign. This guy's head is probably spinning right now.

he already stated that arcane magic does exist. It's just rare. this will affect things at higher levels but it can certainly be done.

As for churches wielding lots of power... Well um... Kind of like RL pre 1800 or so.

Run your game man. Let us know how it goes.

Heh, a bit. First session starts in about two hours. I've got a relatively simple hack-and-slash encounter planned to get the PCs a bit of renown before getting into the main plot.

And I don't imagine divine casters will be purely associated with the church. I'd imagine a suitably devoted follower of a god could get divine power himself outside of the church hierarchy, although obviously the church would be opposed to those "rogue clerics."

JusticeZero
2015-01-23, 05:09 PM
Honestly, slicing off extra magic types makes world building EASIER. Yes, churches will be powerful. They were, historically, anyhow, and since there are several types of Cleric, you already know what a major set of conflicts are. Having several distinct types of magic really muddies things.
Wizards are NOT the DPS. You lose a few utilities, but if it really matters, Clerics will research those effects.

Surpriser
2015-01-23, 07:00 PM
Yep, starting at level 1. I'm a bit concerned about balancing encounters at higher levels, though, since CR is based on a 4-man party of a fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric (or substitutes)--and the wizard is usually the top damage-output for the party.

In that case I strongly recommend worrying about balancing higher levels when you reach the higher levels. For now, get familiar with the basics of DMing and once you have found a routine, there will still be enough time (and levels) left for you to make necessary adjustments.
For the first few levels, you can use the standard mechanics without any changes besides the absence of arcane magic.

rs2excelsior
2015-01-23, 11:30 PM
First session went well. I had the players clear out a bandit nest. Turns out for my good-aligned campaign we have 3 CN and 2 LE characters, but it seems to be working out so far. Much hilarity was had by all, and I had generally good responses from the players.

Yeah, the lack of casters meant we have a lot of martial characters, which was pretty fun. With 5 players, though, the XP gain is really slow. So the fact that time is limited and there are a couple of campaigns going with the same group means we likely won't have to worry about very high level stuff.

Thanks for the advice, all. The Playground is an invaluable resource, as always. :smallsmile:

TheThan
2015-01-24, 04:19 AM
My advice is DO NOT DO THIS at least don’t do it with 3.5. If you want to do a low magic setting, get away from the D20 system, it’s not designed for it.
Let me explain. When they built monsters for 3.X, they took magic into account, as characters grow in level and gain access to more magic, the monsters they face grow progressively more resistant to said magic. I’m not just talking about things like rust monsters that are designed to destroy magic items.
I’m talking about spell resistance, element resistance and damage reduction. These three things combine make monsters very resistant to damage from magical arms and spells being slung at them. If you have spell resistance, and element resistance it’s difficult to hurt them with magic. Now that doesn’t sound like a big deal, no spells to sling renders spell resistance useless, and you’d be right.

Except that monsters also have Damage reduction, which means that you have to do more than the amount of damage listed to even hurt the thing. Or have a weapon that happens to correspond to that particular creature’s weakness. This is the exact reason why you always carry silvered weapons when dealing with werewolves, to override their damage reduction. Damage reduction 10/ silver suddenly stops great sword and great axes in their tracks. Gargoyles actually require magical items to kill, they have DR10/magic, meaning you need spells and magical weapons to hurt them. Without magic, you’re in deep trouble.

Now you could spend a lot of time and effort to modify all the monsters in the game (and there are a lot, trust me) to better fit a non-magical world. I’ve tried and it’s a bit more complicated than just removing the DR of monsters. That DR is figured into their challenge rating and is very much a part of what makes that monster challenging.

Your best bet is to find a different system to learn and play in, one that better fits a low magic world. There are plenty of them out there, you just have to look. But it looks like you've already started, so i guess good luck. I just hope you and your players can handle it.

JusticeZero
2015-01-24, 04:35 AM
Fortunately enough, the OP has full list Divine casters, so all it means in practice is that all of the people who want to learn how to cast mighty magics and forge items of legend have to go to church and pray a lot. That isn't low magic at all, as described.

Kol Korran
2015-01-24, 10:36 AM
A few thoughts:
1) About adjusting challenges, the world and so on: A little secret- it doesn't matter if it's your first campaign, or your fifth, at the start, there is usually some uncertainty on how things will work out. We usually don't repeat the exact same thing in each campaign, but try new things, so there is always an unknown factor.

So how do you deal with it? You play, you observe, you analyze and you adjust. I like to start fairly simple if I can at the start, something that isn't so full of tons of options. The first session or so lets the players get comfortable with their characters, you with them, and everyone with the world, and the group dynamics. I like to introduce 1-2 main themes/ concepts of the campaign and test it on the players: It's all underground, You are outlaws, Magic works differently or... magic is rare.

You then see how players and game react, and learn from it, and adjust things. you then continuously do so as you game. With all due respect to the CR system for example, some groups have a different set of skill, competence, optimization and a whole more other factors. The only way to really know is to test things.

For example: A DM of mine tried a short campaign ("It began with a crash" in my signature) with some different premises: Low magic and wealth world (I got a bow in 5th level! :smalltongue:), arcane caster are outlawed and considered demonic, far vaster difference between the races and monster races (When a giant hit you, you REALLY felt it!) and such. The first two session were run once in running away from goblins, the other in a mystery in a small town. He did it small, he did it manageable, and both we and he could "test the waters".

2) About XP: Unless your players are sticklers for this damn stupid mechanic (Mine have grown so for the last campaign. :smallannoyed:) I suggest you have a talk with them, that you just level them up whenever a really big achievement was done. It also leads to more creativity in a goal- oriented adventuring style, (You don't need to beat most creatures), lessen the headache considerably, enables you to plan more fluidly and adjust, and one important thing- leveling up happens when it damn fells like it's worthy!

Good luck with your game! If you're keeping a log, add it to my project? :smallbiggrin: