Most evil superhero

[danzibr]

I was reading about Batman v. Superman the other day, and I saw there's a story arc for Batman where he "regains his humanity." I can only imagine he, well, lost it before then. I know Batman killed people back in the old days. And... I think he's considered a superhero.

So here's my question: across all versions of superheroes, which has done the most shady deeds? Unfortunately my superhero lore is very poor, so I can't contribute much to the discussion.

[Cheesegear]

Punisher & Black Widow.

[chainer1216]

Not counting times when possessed or temporarily crazy, the punisher comes to mind, due to how quickly he just murderes thugs and the like. Spawn is another, I'm fairly sure he has literally unleashed hell on earth once or twice.

And then there's any character Frank Millers writes, who magically turns into racist sexist scum.

[arcane_asp]

From the way you've described it, I would vote for "The Homelander" from the comic book series 'The Boys'. He is widely considered a hero but is pretty evil and ruthless. Come to think of it, a lot of the so-called Heroes from that series were unsympathetic at best, and downright villainous at worst.

I guess they would stop being heroes after the really evil:smalleek: acts...

[Peebles]

The Punisher is pretty bad, yes. The Hal Jordan Green Lantern has done some pretty awful things too.

Does the Phoenix Force count as possession to absolve someone of culpability? If not, Jean Grey has one heck of a rap sheet. Scarlet Witch wiping out almost all of the worlds mutants also comes to mind. Again though, chaos magic, so not her fault, right?

[Raimun]

Superman. Superman is a... jerk (http://superdickery.tumblr.com/post/24369178926/heirofsparda-how-is-that-fair-bullets-dont). (I know this forum doesn't allow Nightwing's first name).

But yeah, seriously.

Punisher's morality is rather questionable, since his brand of "heroism", makes him an actual criminal and a murderer... even if the local cops only give a really half-hearted "pursuit", because they know he only seeks other criminals.

Deadpool is also a rather questionable fellow. True, it's likely that he's insane but he is a murderous gun for hire and is sometimes about as casual with violence and murder as The Joker. Sure, he has intentionally saved the world at least once or twice (once by kicking Captain America to the groin, it's a long story) but that doesn't really excuse his psychopathy, even if it is played for laughs. Deadpool's mission agenda isn't really to fight crime or save the world but fight and murder for money, even if he sometimes listens his conscience.

[Benthesquid]

Does the Phoenix Force count as possession to absolve someone of culpability? If not, Jean Grey has one heck of a rap sheet.

Phoenix Force possession might or might not, but for the record, what actually happened was that the Phoenix Force stuck Jean Grey in a pod at the bottom of the Hudson and duplicated her body and to a certain extent her mind. This was a way to get around the editorial stance of the day, which was that having committed planetary genocide on the peaceful broccoli people, Jean couldn't return to the X-men as a hero.

Comics, people!


Scarlet Witch wiping out almost all of the worlds mutants also comes to mind. Again though, chaos magic, so not her fault, right?

Scarlet Witch may have been having a breakdown related to the whole mess with her powers and kids/not kids, may have been controlled by Doctor Doom (for reasons that have never made a lot of sense to me, as Doom didn't do superwell in the Fantastic Four House of M tie-in), or may have just gone full supervillain. In any case, it's worth noting that what she did was depower all the world's mutants, not kill them. A pretty huge jerk move, for a variety of reasons (getting into the identity politics and whatever minority group mutants are a metaphor for at the moment treads perilous close to violating some board rules) but probably not on the level of Jean/not!Jean's star eating.

[Lurkmoar]

Phoenix Force possession might or might not, but for the record, what actually happened was that the Phoenix Force stuck Jean Grey in a pod at the bottom of the Hudson and duplicated her body and to a certain extent her mind. This was a way to get around the editorial stance of the day, which was that having committed planetary genocide on the peaceful broccoli people, Jean couldn't return to the X-men as a hero.

Comics, people!

Problem is that some writers refuse to see the Phoenix Force as separate from Jean Grey. It's so infused in her character that the Phoenix is the first thing that comes to mind when you mention Jean Grey.

For my money, I'd say the Plutonian from Irredeemable. The body count he racks up over the course of the series is in the millions. He wiped out Singapore with tsunamis.

[Tengu_temp]

Do intentionally evil characters count? Because the Plutonian is pretty much supposed to be a deconstruction of Superman, and a villain. Similarily, Deadpool is intended to be a killer for hire, and is not supposed to be a hero.


Superman. Superman is a... jerk (http://superdickery.tumblr.com/post/24369178926/heirofsparda-how-is-that-fair-bullets-dont). (I know this forum doesn't allow Nightwing's first name).


Eh, in reality 99% of superdickery comes from three sources:
1. Taking panels out of context.
2. Silver Age, when writers didn't give jack about consistent characterization, and also many covers were bait-and-switch and barely related to the actual story.
3. Writers who hate Superman and intentionally write him as a **** (coughfrankmillercough).
Other than that, he's a pretty upstanding fellow.

[Raimun]

Do intentionally evil characters count? Because the Plutonian is pretty much supposed to be a deconstruction of Superman, and a villain. Similarily, Deadpool is intended to be a killer for hire, and is not supposed to be a hero.



Eh, in reality 99% of superdickery comes from three sources:
1. Taking panels out of context.
2. Silver Age, when writers didn't give jack about consistent characterization, and also many covers were bait-and-switch and barely related to the actual story.
3. Writers who hate Superman and intentionally write him as a **** (coughfrankmillercough).
Other than that, he's a pretty upstanding fellow.

I was joking, of course. Hence, "But yeah, seriously." :smalltongue:

Even then, Superman does look like a total jerk in many silver age comic cook covers if you don't read the actual comics. Especially now days since the characterization in covers is consistent, even if it is exaggreted.

Even if Superman was merely bluffing the criminals every time there was a cover like that, you can't help but wonder if he liked to play a jerk a bit too much.

Superman: "What's this? Lex Luthor is robbing the bank again? I should burn Lois' and Jimmy's favorite clothes with my heat vision so that I look like I finally turned evil. If that doesn't lull Luthor in a false sense of security, I don't know what will! Sure, I could just fly in and punch him in the face but it's more fun this way!"

[HandofShadows]

Deadpool is also a rather questionable fellow. True, it's likely that he's insane but he is a murderous gun for hire and is sometimes about as casual with violence and murder as The Joker. Sure, he has intentionally saved the world at least once or twice (once by kicking Captain America to the groin, it's a long story) but that doesn't really excuse his psychopathy, even if it is played for laughs. Deadpool's mission agenda isn't really to fight crime or save the world but fight and murder for money, even if he sometimes listens his conscience.

As you say Deadpool isn't supposed to be a hero. But he does have a set of morals that he sticks to. Also he seem to turn his "killing for hire" only on bad guys these days. He also has developed a habit of going after some bad guys the law can't touch for no payment (but he does kill them). But the important thing is, he is NOT a hero.

[TheThan]

Punisher's morality is rather questionable, since his brand of "heroism", makes him an actual criminal and a murderer... even if the local cops only give a really half-hearted "pursuit", because they know he only seeks other criminals.

Deadpool is also a rather questionable fellow. True, it's likely that he's insane but he is a murderous gun for hire and is sometimes about as casual with violence and murder as The Joker. Sure, he has intentionally saved the world at least once or twice (once by kicking Captain America to the groin, it's a long story) but that doesn't really excuse his psychopathy, even if it is played for laughs. Deadpool's mission agenda isn't really to fight crime or save the world but fight and murder for money, even if he sometimes listens his conscience.

Since when was punisher and Deadpool heroes?

Punisher is a vigilante waging a one man war on crime, a war in which he kills his enemies.
Deadpool is a mercenary and assassin for hire.

Neither of these two are white hat wearing good guys. They both hold to morals that arn't exactly the norm for superheroes.

[Durkoala]

I don't know much about superheroes, but this pair and their friends should have a decent chance at the title.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322592-quot-Let-s-get-this-straight-YOU-RE-the-sidekick!-quot-A-Mutants-amp-Masterminds-Camp-Journal

Guilty of Murder, assault, GBH, ABH, more murder, conning the public, misogyny, robbery and other stuff. It's also a great series.

[BeerMug Paladin]

My suggestions might not count for much, as I've only ever read a handful of comics before. The things that instantly pop into my mind are stuff like Ozymandias, The Comedian or Rorschact from Watchmen. (But they may not count for the definition of a superhero.)

Various superheroes from the Empowered series are not nice people, as most of them are just kind of jerks, and not evil (with one majorly notable exception!). But that setting is about the only example I can think of as a superhero that is evil. The thing is, superheroes are typically identified by their behavior, so by definition if someone does evil things, they're not a superhero.

I don't know about many universes where superhero is an actual job description, and not some kind of hobby that people do on the side. But that's the case in Empowered.

[Metahuman1]

Deadpool is an Anti Hero. He has questionable mental stability at best, and these days he's trying to do better. Not good, just, better.



I'd say Phoenix and emerald twilight era Hal Jordan and Scarlet Witch get a pass due to effects of outside forces.



Iron Man and Reed Richards, however, literally went so far into fascist territory, they were a goose step, uniform, salute and Swastika away form being full on Nazi's in and around the Civil War storyline.

And leave us not forget our dear friend Mr. Peter Parker, who made a deal with the devil to erase his marriage form time and abort his daughter in the process, willingly committed torture on an already subdued super villain, and is in general a loathsome creature all on his own.

I'd also submit that most of Rob Liefields characters, particularly circa early 1990's, were horrible horrible people.

[t209]

Iron Man and Reed Richards, however, literally went so far into fascist territory, they were a goose step, uniform, salute and Swastika away form being full on Nazi's in and around the Civil War storyline.
Ironically, they really do have a point in supporting Registration act, especially it providing training for super heroes, along with insurance for both heroes and the bystanders.
You could count in Senator Kelly's argument too.
For the villainous superheroes, I was going to say....Captain Hammer (Dr. Horrible may not be sympathetic but he's a jerk).

[McStabbington]

Rorschach or Ozymandius, depending on whether you like your evil scaled to horrible and personal or horrible and cataclysmic.

[Metahuman1]

Ironically, they really do have a point in supporting Registration act, especially it providing training for super heroes, along with insurance for both heroes and the bystanders.
You could count in Senator Kelly's argument too.
For the villainous superheroes, I was going to say....Captain Hammer (Dr. Horrible may not be sympathetic but he's a jerk).

Yes, cause it's not like they came 1 well timed movie release away from Norman Osborn having complete and permanent control over every super powered being on earth with that idea and forgot that civil rights was ever a concept as an intrinsic part of such a mandatory registration.

Oh. Wait. They did. (Seriously the only reason Osborn didn't get it was they figured out people were Livid at comic book Stark being pro-reg when it flew in the face of all previous characterizations, and then the Iron Man movie came out and was a smash hit and they wanted to mirror that and realized a Stark that made people take polls on how long it would be till he started saying "Zig Hail" to people was not conductive to that, so a change was mandated.

That's it. )

Stark and Richards were utterly irredeemable monsters during those story lines, and they've done crap all since then to properly redeem them. (No, literally making them forget it ever happened, in universe, does not excuse them.)

[Man on Fire]

I was reading about Batman v. Superman the other day, and I saw there's a story arc for Batman where he "regains his humanity." I can only imagine he, well, lost it before then. I know Batman killed people back in the old days. And... I think he's considered a superhero.

So here's my question: across all versions of superheroes, which has done the most shady deeds? Unfortunately my superhero lore is very poor, so I can't contribute much to the discussion.

Spectre once genocided entire country. It was torn in Civil War and Spectre decided to punish leaders of two fractions. He killed everyone else, razed the country to the ground and left these two to fight who gets to rule the ruins.

Namor started his career by causing tsunami that killed more people than many terrorist attacks. Over the years he went all the way to New Avengers #21
In which he destroys altrnate Earth, killing billions.

[Cheesegear]

Stark and Richards were utterly irredeemable monsters during those story lines, and they've done crap all since then to properly redeem them. (No, literally making them forget it ever happened, in universe, does not excuse them.)

Remember that time they tricked Hulk and then shot him into far space? Fair enough. But Bruce Banner was their friend, he was terribly upset. Hulk was just mad. Then Hulk came back and started doing some questionable things, then Ghost Rider shows up to stop them, then falters, 'cause it turns out, Hulk making a gladiatorial arena and getting the people who sent him to space to kill each other isn't actually all that bad - 'cause vengeance is right in Ghost Rider's wheelhouse. If Hulk was going something actually bad, Ghost Rider'd be the one to know.

Stark and Richards are a-holes, but they're not necessarily 'evil', everything they do is generally for the greater good. The Mutant Registration Act is totally understandable, and no different to any number of real-world watch lists.

Punisher and Black Widow straight up murder people. Although I'm pretty sure BW doesn't do that anymore in Marvel NOW! continuity. But, I can only point out that she's called Black Widow for a reason.

[TheThan]

But, I can only point out that she's called Black Widow for a reason.

Is it because she eats her lovers after... doing it...?

[Kitten Champion]

I'd have to say Namor too. There's no real justification for his actions, as opposed to the likes of Jean Grey, Wanda Maximoff, or Hal Jordan. He has a definite lack of scruples and is consumed by overwhelming egoism, coming off more as a grey-and-grey sword-and-sorcery pulp anti-hero than a modern superhero.

To be fair to the writers, as far as I can tell he's always been like that. One step away from being a villain, and will take that step when he thinks the situation demands it.

[Man on Fire]

I'd have to say Namor too. There's no real justification for his actions, as opposed to the likes of Jean Grey, Wanda Maximoff, or Hal Jordan. He has a definite lack of scruples and is consumed by overwhelming egoism, coming off more as a grey-and-grey sword-and-sorcery pulp anti-hero than a modern superhero.

To be fair to the writers, as far as I can tell he's always been like that. One step away from being a villain, and will take that step when he thinks the situation demands it.

I think Grant Morrison summed up Namor well in Supergods:

Prince Namor (Roman spelled backward) of Atlantis, the Sub-Mariner, was the creation of seventeen-year-old Bill Everett. In photographs, the handsome Everett has a shock of hair like Rimbaud, geek glasses, a pipe clenched between his teeth, and a demonic glint in his eye. Superman sometimes flouted the law, but decent people had nothing to fear from the essentially upstanding Man of Steel. Prince Namor was different: This half-human terrorist was prepared to inundate the just and unjust alike as he rode on whaleback at the foaming apocalyptic crest of the devastating mega-tsunami that he unleashed on New York in his first adventure. Everett’s version of the crude, comic pulp style was edgier, more angular, and more fantastic than anything seen previously.

With his jet-black widow’s peak, piercing eyes, pointed ears, bladelike cheekbones, and winged feet, the otherwise naked prince of the deep wore only a pair of scaly green briefs as the badge of his nobility. Namor was the face of JD insolence, awaiting rock ’n’ roll, Marlon Brando, and James Dean to ratify his power. Driven by passions and brief allegiances, Namor faced the entire world with a ****-you snarl, committing acts of high anarchy on a scale undreamed of by terrorists in the real world.

There was no shortage of sea stories, tales of Atlantis, storms, piracy, dynastic succession, and imperial vengeance from which to draw inspiration for Namor’s fertile new fantasy playground.

[Aotrs Commander]

I vote for Scarlet...Witch, on the basis that the level of atrocity commited by M-day is on an unfathomably massive level. I try not to even think about how many millions of people she probably erased or created them erased, leaving aside the mindrape of the everyone else on the planet. I absolutely and permenantly lost all ability to view her as anything other than the very worst kind of scum after that little... incidnent and I don't give even the slightest care as to the circumstances that lead to it.

There are some lines you don't cross and she crossed all of them several times while laughing.

[Man on Fire]

I vote for Scarlet...Witch, on the basis that the level of atrocity commited by M-day is on an unfathomably massive level. I try not to even think about how many millions of people she probably erased or created them erased, leaving aside the mindrape of the everyone else on the planet. I absolutely and permenantly lost all ability to view her as anything other than the very worst kind of scum after that little... incidnent and I don't give even the slightest care as to the circumstances that lead to it.

There are some lines you don't cross and she crossed all of them several times while laughing.

Doctor Doom. It's been revealed she has done it under unfluence by Doctor Doom and not by her own will.

But good you're not reading XMen anymore, you would be very angry by Amazing X-Men #15

[turkishproverb]

Spider-man. We all know why.

[MLai]

Doctor Doom. It's been revealed she has done it under unfluence by Doctor Doom and not by her own will.
WTF does Dr. Doom gain from erasing Spiderman's marriage????
I'm not sure I want to know. But... wh...

[chainer1216]

DOOM is a being so far beyond you plebian masses, DOOMs intellect far surpasses anyone else's, as such, DOOMs plans and goals cannot even be comprehended by ones such as you, so do not dare to question DOOM lest he turn his ire on you!

[MLai]

Such an overreaction...? Ahh...!
Clearly DOOM's got the hots for redheads.

[Cheesegear]

WTF does Dr. Doom gain from erasing Spiderman's marriage?

Think you got your posts mixed up there buddy.

Scarlet Witch erased a bunch of mutants from existence, mindraping a bunch of people in the process to forget about certain mutants. Under the influence of Dr. Doom - probably.
Mephistopheles erased Spidey's marriage and mindraped everyone on the planet to forget that Spidey was Peter Parker after he outed himself during Civil War. Mephistopheles is evil to begin with and an analogue for the Devil, so he's allowed to mindrape people.

[Avilan the Grey]

We definitely have to separate, I feel, Heroes that are written... questionably but the writer still intend to be viewed as heroes, and anti-heroes and villains that are protagonists (also covers possessed or temporarily crazy heroes) which are not MEANT to be heroes (Rorschach, Punisher when he starter out (and still, depending on writer), Harley Quinn, etc etc).

I always feel both a bit awkward and uneasy when people hold up these protagonists as "awesome" and their "favorites".

[MLai]

I always feel both a bit awkward and uneasy when people hold up these protagonists as "awesome" and their "favorites".
I don't think you need to feel moral consequences to ppl liking such characters. Because it's obviously a liking akin to liking a video game character with a 5-digit body count; all their arson and manslaughter has no bearing on the real world. What does matter is that they get to do things according to their desires, give a 1-finger salute to authority, and come off looking stylish doing so.

[Cheesegear]

I always feel both a bit awkward and uneasy when people hold up these protagonists as "awesome" and their "favorites".

Punisher - and to a lesser extent, Red Hood and Deathstroke* - has reasons for doing what he does, and he generally only targets a very select few on whatever arbitrary list that he's got going. It's still vigilantism and ignores due process, and Punisher is fairly ruthless at doesn't really have any mercy (except when he does). At the end of the day, Punisher has a purpose, and it's made very clear to the audience what that purpose is. Along the lines of "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.", I wont discuss the moral implications of that message because of Forum rules, but it's there, and Punisher's audience knows it.

*Deathstroke often falls into the category of Anti-Villain, rather than Hero.

[lord_khaine]

Remember that time they tricked Hulk and then shot him into far space? Fair enough. But Bruce Banner was their friend, he was terribly upset. Hulk was just mad. Then Hulk came back and started doing some questionable things, then Ghost Rider shows up to stop them, then falters, 'cause it turns out, Hulk making a gladiatorial arena and getting the people who sent him to space to kill each other isn't actually all that bad - 'cause vengeance is right in Ghost Rider's wheelhouse. If Hulk was going something actually bad, Ghost Rider'd be the one to know.

The only thing this shows is that Ghost Rider is an incompetent moron who cant tell evil from his left foot.
Because, besides the obvious difference between launching someone into space, and making them kill their friends in a duel, then how many peoples lives were ruined by Hulk comming crashing back? and im pretty certain he were not paying for the construction materials for his little arena.
Heck, for that matter, where were Ghost Rider when Hulk were smashing a town for the 117th time..?

[Aotrs Commander]

Doctor Doom. It's been revealed she has done it under unfluence by Doctor Doom and not by her own will.

*sigh*

Of COURSE they're pulling that one.

Lichmuffin forfend any heroes (other than MAYBE Wolverine, but only when they can use it to screw him over more) actually ever take any responsibilty for their bad actions or anything.

And at the cost of making Doom a more cartoonish villain as well.

Or even making sense.


But good you're not reading XMen anymore, you would be very angry by Amazing X-Men #15

Still reading adjectiveless-with-Jubilee1, but go on, depress me, then, what happens? Assuming the above wasn't it and it gets worse.



1Literally, I'm now only reading Marvel because Jubilee, and as soon as that stops, so do I. They have just stopped telling stories I want to hear.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't really hold One More Day against Peter Parker so much as I hold it against whatshisface. It's not like the character can control the fact that there was an editorial mandate that forced an absolutely awful story after all.

Yes, making a deal with the literal devil is beyond stupid, and the fact that Mephistopheles was even CAPABLE of doing that is beyond stupid, but it's not like being in-character, or consistent writing matter when there's an editorial mandate that forces things to go a certain way. Hell, when Peter goes to beg EVERYONE HE CAN to fix his aunt May, how the hell were all of them not capable of treating a mere BULLET WOUND? Everything in that storyline makes so damn little sense I honestly don't even consider it worth considering canon.

Also, this is just based off the review by Linkara, but it honestly seems like Mary Jane is the one at fault here. She's the one who encourages Peter to actually listen to Mephisto when he's about to tell him where he can stuff his offer, and literally tells Mephisto Peter won't take the deal unless she tells him to. I consider Mary Jane the worse one here, because she decides to drag Peter down with her, because freakin' whatshisface wanted Spiderman to date his daughter, which is beyond creepy.

[comicshorse]

I vote for Scarlet...Witch, on the basis that the level of atrocity commited by M-day is on an unfathomably massive level. I try not to even think about how many millions of people she probably erased or created them erased,

Hold it, I thought she didn't actually kill anybody just removed their mutant powers. (Obviously not counting the poor devils whose power was flying and were flying when she performed her mojo)

[Man on Fire]

*sigh*

Of COURSE they're pulling that one.

Lichmuffin forfend any heroes (other than MAYBE Wolverine, but only when they can use it to screw him over more) actually ever take any responsibilty for their bad actions or anything.

And at the cost of making Doom a more cartoonish villain as well.

Or even making sense.

Well, look at it this way - Wanda has fans and is known as supehero. After thing like this you youself said there is no redemption for her. Taking esponsibility would mean pobably a life sentence or electric chair and she could never be a hero again. Imagine if one of your belowed characters was in that position - wouldn't you want it retconned? Or would you preffe to see you belowed chaacter in prison always emembered as mass muderer?


Still reading adjectiveless-with-Jubilee1, but go on, depress me, then, what happens? Assuming the above wasn't it and it gets worse.

You know Pixie, right? You know how she uses magic? X-Men finally decided to bring in a magician to teach her something more than just few simple spell.
So they called Wanda.

A lot of fans on /co/ were outraged by it and Wanda being allowed to even set foot at the school. And jokes about what kind of lies Storm must be pulling off to keep fact Scarlet Witch is there from all hese people who would gladly murder her.
Granted, it's not like X-Men have any better options n that regard...


1Literally, I'm now only reading Marvel because Jubilee, and as soon as that stops, so do I. They have just stopped telling stories I want to hear.

Don't worry, soon they'll reboot everything anyway. And 90s versions of X-Men are in secret wars apparently.


As you say Deadpool isn't supposed to be a hero. But he does have a set of morals that he sticks to. Also he seem to turn his "killing for hire" only on bad guys these days. He also has developed a habit of going after some bad guys the law can't touch for no payment (but he does kill them). But the important thing is, he is NOT a hero.

True that. Last year he went after Carnage for no reason other that Carnage disgusted him. I haven't finished that story but I think he might actually killed Shriek, Carnage's murderous girlfriend. Then he made a joke about fridging.

[Ebon_Drake]

Rorschach or Ozymandius, depending on whether you like your evil scaled to horrible and personal or horrible and cataclysmic.

Since Rorschach has been brought up, I'll nominate his partial inspiration: Mr A (http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/297/). Whereas Rorschach was written as a deconstruction of that kind of moral absolutist hero, Mr A was intended to be a genuine hero that readers would see as completely sane, justified and correct even when he's telling regular street-level criminals that they're irredeemably evil and deserve death. Dude is terrifying.

[Avilan the Grey]

Punisher - and to a lesser extent, Red Hood and Deathstroke* - has reasons for doing what he does, and he generally only targets a very select few on whatever arbitrary list that he's got going. It's still vigilantism and ignores due process, and Punisher is fairly ruthless at doesn't really have any mercy (except when he does). At the end of the day, Punisher has a purpose, and it's made very clear to the audience what that purpose is. Along the lines of "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.", I wont discuss the moral implications of that message because of Forum rules, but it's there, and Punisher's audience knows it.

*Deathstroke often falls into the category of Anti-Villain, rather than Hero.

I was more thinking of Rorschach, Harley Quinn, Lobo (at least when he's written like he was at the start) and others like that, clear psycho- or sociopaths that kill innocents or at least people that are not even close to deserving anything close to death.


The only thing this shows is that Ghost Rider is an incompetent moron who cant tell evil from his left foot.
Because, besides the obvious difference between launching someone into space, and making them kill their friends in a duel, then how many peoples lives were ruined by Hulk comming crashing back? and im pretty certain he were not paying for the construction materials for his little arena.
Heck, for that matter, where were Ghost Rider when Hulk were smashing a town for the 117th time..?

1. DISCLAIMER: this is not a real life argument Actually you are wrong. Ghost Rider CANNOT be incompetent in this way, because he channels divine justice.

2. I do consider shooting someone out in space AT LEAST as evil as forcing them to fight

3. Hulk smashing the town (any town) isn't evil (unless he is in his Joe Fixit persona). He isn't evil, he's a force of nature.

[Tengu_temp]

Since Rorschach has been brought up, I'll nominate his partial inspiration: Mr A (http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/297/). Whereas Rorschach was written as a deconstruction of that kind of moral absolutist hero, Mr A was intended to be a genuine hero that readers would see as completely sane, justified and correct even when he's telling regular street-level criminals that they're irredeemably evil and deserve death. Dude is terrifying.

I was about to say this guy isn't really a superhero, but I suppose Super Black And White Worldview counts as a superpower.

[lord_khaine]

1. DISCLAIMER: this is not a real life argument Actually you are wrong. Ghost Rider CANNOT be incompetent in this way, because he channels divine justice.

2. I do consider shooting someone out in space AT LEAST as evil as forcing them to fight

3. Hulk smashing the town (any town) isn't evil (unless he is in his Joe Fixit persona). He isn't evil, he's a force of nature.

1. Unless Ghost Rider in that case is a incompetent channel, then thats pretty terrifying.. because it means whatever divine force that is using him is incompetent.

2. Not when it was as much less into space.. and more though space to a planet more suited for housing Hulk.

3. With that argument its even more acceptable to shoot him into space, forces of nature are there to be defeated or channeled into something useful.

4. Still dont cover much suffering Hulk brought to a lot of casual bystanders when he came back.

[Man on Fire]

Actually you are wrong. Ghost Rider CANNOT be incompetent in this way, because he channels divine justice.

Just a reminder that recently the same power didn't work on Punisher. Punisher for chrissake!

[chainer1216]

Just a reminder that recently the same power didn't work on Punisher. Punisher for chrissake!

well, ghost rider is the spirit of vengeance, not justice. maybe ghost riders powers simply don't effect those pursuing vengeance. i mean, he IS/WAS a servant of the devil.

[Traab]

Remember that time they tricked Hulk and then shot him into far space? Fair enough. But Bruce Banner was their friend, he was terribly upset. Hulk was just mad. Then Hulk came back and started doing some questionable things, then Ghost Rider shows up to stop them, then falters, 'cause it turns out, Hulk making a gladiatorial arena and getting the people who sent him to space to kill each other isn't actually all that bad - 'cause vengeance is right in Ghost Rider's wheelhouse. If Hulk was going something actually bad, Ghost Rider'd be the one to know.

Stark and Richards are a-holes, but they're not necessarily 'evil', everything they do is generally for the greater good. The Mutant Registration Act is totally understandable, and no different to any number of real-world watch lists.

Punisher and Black Widow straight up murder people. Although I'm pretty sure BW doesn't do that anymore in Marvel NOW! continuity. But, I can only point out that she's called Black Widow for a reason.

The MRA might be understandable if it wasnt for the well established fact that there are large portions of the government salivating over the chance to get their hands on that list to kill all mutants, enslave all mutants, or segregate all mutants. Evil portions of government aside, they live in a world where the most powerful secret agencies get hacked all the time, infiltration is so common noone bothers to lock the doors to their record rooms anymore, and everyone just assumes other nations and various evil organizations already know everything you do. Which leads to slaughtered mutants, enslaved mutants, brainwashed mutants, and lord knows what else.

[HandofShadows]

Remember that time they tricked Hulk and then shot him into far space? Fair enough. But Bruce Banner was their friend, he was terribly upset. Hulk was just mad. Then Hulk came back and started doing some questionable things, then Ghost Rider shows up to stop them, then falters, 'cause it turns out, Hulk making a gladiatorial arena and getting the people who sent him to space to kill each other isn't actually all that bad - 'cause vengeance is right in Ghost Rider's wheelhouse. If Hulk was going something actually bad, Ghost Rider'd be the one to know.


The Hulk blamed them for the death of his wife and the nuking of a major city. Crimes they were NOT guilty of. (One of the Hulks own followers did it). They shot the Hulk into space and aimed him for a nice quite planet with no one around to bother him. (As Richards pointed out, he always said he want to be left alone). Shooting the Hulk into space was not a very good thing to do, but how much damage did the Hulk regularly cause? And that's if he didn't develope another personality that liked killing people. BTW, how many people died because the Hulk kicked everyone out of New York City? How many people couldn't be moved from hospitals, killed in accidents, died because of lack of specialized medical care? No one seems to think about that very much.

[Raimun]

Since when was punisher and Deadpool heroes?

Punisher is a vigilante waging a one man war on crime, a war in which he kills his enemies.
Deadpool is a mercenary and assassin for hire.

Neither of these two are white hat wearing good guys. They both hold to morals that arn't exactly the norm for superheroes.

I assumed OP wasn't thinking about the semantics and meant with "superheroes" comic book characters who:

1) Dress in super costumes. You know, spandex, colorful jumpsuits, masks, capes etc.
2) Have super powers or are Badass Normal.
3) Aren't outright villains. No kidnapping damsels, deathtraps or mustache twirling. Holding the world hostage with a doomsday device is also right out.
4) Do fight crime and/or try to save the world. Or fight for some other reason. Point is that they struggle against odds.
5) Are/have been protagonists in their own weekly/monthly/limited/etc. series of comic books.

Because let's face it, "evil superhero" is an oxymoron if we use the modern day definition of the word "hero" as the people's champion who is morally upright.

Remember, in ancient times a "hero" was pretty much just a protagonist who killed a lot of people and/or monsters in combat.

[Lurkmoar]

Just a reminder that recently the same power didn't work on Punisher. Punisher for chrissake!

The Punisher worked for the Angels. No, really, he did. Obviously a Dork Age, but still canon.

[Anteros]

Hal Jordan committed genocide on an intergalactic scale. It has been retconned, but it was canon for a long time.

[Man on Fire]

well, ghost rider is the spirit of vengeance, not justice. maybe ghost riders powers simply don't effect those pursuing vengeance.

Or maybe his powers canno beat bad writing. Ghost Rider only showed up in World War Hulk because his series was sellng low and they needed to bust sales. But of course he should have clean up the deck, beat the Hulk and judge Illuminatti by himself and writers wouldn't have that, so they made up a reason why Penance Stare won't work on Hulk. Same with Punisher, they just wanted a reason for Frank to win so Penance Stare got hit by a nerf.
WWH was full of plot-inducted stupidity to make it work. Doctor Strange should easily take down Hulk, he could just banish him to other dimension with nap of his fingers. But nooo, they had to make him clinically stupid so Hulk can win because othertwise the plto doesn't work. See also: every single writer to write Doctor Strange for years (Bendis, Hickman, Pak, Fraction) all going out of their way to first nerf him and then make him sell his soul just because they cannot think of a reason why he won't solve all problems before Captain America has an opportunity to throw his stupid shield at the enemy. See also: Spectre at DC. I mean things like Nekron were just stupid, plain and simple.

Long story short: I hate how science-fition writers treat magic in superhero comics. It's horrible and those people shouldn't use magic characters at all.

[Avilan the Grey]

The Ghostrider discussion has once again reminded me why I haven't read any Marvel Comics comics since One More Day.

[Cheesegear]

The Ghostrider discussion has once again reminded me why I haven't read any Marvel Comics comics since One More Day.

Good for you. But there have been plenty of good stories since OMD. Besides, OMD is probably going by the wayside in 2015 with whatever Renew Your Vows is doing, and Miles Morales is in continuity and he's great. One More Day was seven years ago, and you're still not over it? That's...Kind of sad, really.

[Avilan the Grey]

Good for you. But there have been plenty of good stories since OMD. Besides, OMD is probably going by the wayside in 2015 with whatever Renew Your Vows is doing, and Miles Morales is in continuity and he's great. One More Day was seven years ago, and you're still not over it? That's...Kind of sad, really.

Well, since they haven't retconned it yet... Why would I be over it.
Besides, the whole doc ock stupidity happened just as I was thinking about picking up Spidey again, and the loathsome way they treated their fans (and writers!) in that one made me decide that Joe Quesada will never get my money, ever. He's just creepy.

...And yes I know, technically he has a say in the movies too. But I am a hypocrite just like everyone else in the world...

And it's not only Marvel. I HATE everything New52 from DC.

...Or maybe I have just outgrown superhero comics. But why do I enjoy the Marvel movies if that was the case...?

[Brother Oni]

...Or maybe I have just outgrown superhero comics. But why do I enjoy the Marvel movies if that was the case...?

The Marvel movies are on a separate continuity (mostly inspired from the Ultimate line), so don't suffer too much from all the continuity baggage from the last decade or so?

Plus movies get to do fun things like in the Age of Ultron trailer where they're all just hanging around shooting the breeze and playing silly games like 'who's worthy enough to pick up Mjolnir?' while having a drink.

[Cheesegear]

Excuse me thread, while I go off topic...


Plus movies get to do fun things like in the Age of Ultron trailer where they're all just hanging around shooting the breeze and playing silly games like 'who's worthy enough to pick up Mjolnir?' while having a drink.

The movies are a snap-shot of the best that that character has to offer. They only have to please you for 90-120 minutes, and then they're done. I'm sure if you went over to the Marvel Comics thread and said "Which Iron-Man story is really good?", I'm sure somebody would be able to rattle off two, maybe three arcs where Tony Stark was at the top of his game, and doing fun stuff while beating up bad guys.

The comic industry doesn't work that way, it can't work that way. Comic writers need to sell a book every two weeks, maybe one a month, and they have to push that indefinitely until the Editor tells them to quit it. Maybe the story-line changes every six months, maybe a story-line can take a whole year to finish. Don't matter. They have to keep that book going for as long as it takes for the story (or their run) ends. They constantly have to bring up new storylines, some are good, some are bad, but, at the end of the day, they have to be long, sometimes you get filler, sometimes the writers introduce story threads that they don't know how to end, it just happens. That's how the comic industry works.

"But Cheesegear, why don't writers just end arcs and finish the series, like Manga does?" because ending a money-making title doesn't make any more money. Instead of One More Day, why not just retire Parker as Spider-Man and have someone new? Simple. Because that new character wont be Peter Parker, he'll be some other person who people don't like. Perfect examples are Thor and Captain America. If Thor Odinson can't be Thor, God of Thunder, then it's not really Thor anymore, right? If Captain America isn't Steve Rogers, then it's no longer Captain America, right? Yes, you have some SJW issues where Thor, God of Thunder is a lady and an African-American is now Captain America, but, anybody with a working brain's complaint isn't about that, it's about the character who they like - Thor Odinson and Steve Rogers - not being the identity behind the book. It doesn't matter to these people who they put under the mantle, 'cause none of them will ever be Thor Odinson or Steve Rogers, SJW issues or not.

TL;DR
Where was I? Right. A movie has to entertain you for 90-120 minutes, and uses already-positive reviewed (old) material that people already like, they just have to translate the comic storyline onto the silver screen, which for any decent screenwriter and director should be easy (that's why adaptions are so popular after all, you're already working with something with a proven audience). A currently-running comic has to entertain you indefinitely using new material, generally under editorial mandate, and writers don't know that people will like new stuff until its printed.

[Brother Oni]

TL;DR
Where was I? Right. A movie has to entertain you for 90-120 minutes, and uses already-positive reviewed (old) material that people already like, they just have to translate the comic storyline onto the silver screen, which for any decent screenwriter and director should be easy (that's why adaptions are so popular after all, you're already working with something with a proven audience). A currently-running comic has to entertain you indefinitely using new material, generally under editorial mandate, and writers don't know that people will like new stuff until its printed.

Oh, I fully agree and understand the issues that the comics have in comparison to the movies, but it still doesn't change why Avilan prefers the movies over the comics.

The enforced continuation of a character and their story is one of the reasons why I stopped reading most mainstream comic books and started shorter (comparatively speaking) running series or manga instead.

[Avilan the Grey]

Having an end in sight usually improves writing just by itself.
An example is Two and a Half men which has improved with several 100% percent.

[Traab]

I never really had what you might call a solid backing in comics. The way I read my comics was, once every year or two, my aunt would send me a garbage bag or two full of comic books from pretty much every line marvel had in no particular order. So I got a lot of random bits and pieces that rarely made much sense because im being dropped off in the middle of the story with no idea how it happened or what happened next.

Now, when it comes to the big story arcs like civil war m day etc, I get my info through fanfiction. I get to see enough details in my various crossover fics to figure out what happened and how people seem to react to them. Speaking of which, No Reading is an interesting one. Naruto pops into the marvel universe shortly before the whole civil war thing kicks off. That book ends with the end of the civil war, another story was started then abandoned though.

[Man on Fire]

Well, since they haven't retconned it yet... Why would I be over it.
Besides, the whole doc ock stupidity happened just as I was thinking about picking up Spidey again, and the loathsome way they treated their fans (and writers!) in that one made me decide that Joe Quesada will never get my money, ever. He's just creepy.

...And yes I know, technically he has a say in the movies too. But I am a hypocrite just like everyone else in the world...

Well if you want to be technicall, he has more to say in the movies than in the comics. He's been kicked upstairs and now is responsible of comics properties being well-represented in all media, which means movies, video games, tv shows - that's Quesada. People who should be held responsible for Marvel Comics since he's been out and all the bad stuff, be it Spock, Spider-Verse, Avengers vs X-Men, Avengers Arena, Avengers Undercover, Avengers A.I. and all other horrible books, are:
* Marvel Vice-President and senior editor Tom Brevoort
* Marvel Editor In Chief Axel Alonso
And in all honestly, Alonso has a reputation as an editor he gives writers a lot of creative freedom so I don't know how much you can blame him. Plus when they announced Secret Wars and death of Ultimate Universe this week he looked so bored and sad I thought he's going to fall asleep.


And it's not only Marvel. I HATE everything New52 from DC.

Even Gotham Academy? But it's adorable, c'mon!


...Or maybe I have just outgrown superhero comics. But why do I enjoy the Marvel movies if that was the case...?

Idea of outgrowing a genre is silly. You might just preffer it on different medium. I for example cannot stand science-fiction books but like science-fiction anime.


The Marvel movies are on a separate continuity (mostly inspired from the Ultimate line), so don't suffer too much from all the continuity baggage from the last decade or so?

Sorry, but I have to call bullmanure. Since start of Avengers continuity had become increibly confusing and sufferign fro mthe same problems comics one does. I mean, ook at what happens if I want to follow a character, what a mess it is:
* Iron Man: Iron Man -> Iron Man 2 -> Avengers -> Iron Man 3 -> Avengers: Age of Ultron -> Captain America: Civil War
* Thor and Loki: Thor - Avengers -> Thor: the Dark Realm -> Avengers: Age of Ultron -> Thor: Ragnarok
* Black Widow: Iron Man 2 -> Avengers -> Captain America: Winter Soldier -> Avengers: Age of Ultron
* Infinity Gems: Captain America: First Avenger -> Thor -> Avengers -> Thor the Dark Realm -> Guardians of the Galaxy
It doesn't sound any less confusiong that say, reading order for modern Loki (Joe Straczynski's run on Thor -> Kieron Gillen's run on Thor + Brian Bendis Siege Miniseries -> Kieron Gillen's Journey Into Mystery -> Young Avengers vol.2 -> Loki: Agent of Asgard)
Also, here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/10001-Age-of-Heroes-Marvel-DC-Comics) is excellent video explaing how this continuity is working in favor of MCU.


Plus movies get to do fun things like in the Age of Ultron trailer where they're all just hanging around shooting the breeze and playing silly games like 'who's worthy enough to pick up Mjolnir?' while having a drink.

Avengers #24 has his:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-x2CoFzoVzjA/Ur9c9ozfmyI/AAAAAAAAY0s/bfVV6h_jL3c/s1600/av24t.jpg
And next page, which I cannot find has Hulk carrying hundreds of hot dogs on his shoulders.


]The movies are a snap-shot of the best that that character has to offer. They only have to please you for 90-120 minutes, and then they're done. I'm sure if you went over to the Marvel Comics thread and said "Which Iron-Man story is really good?", I'm sure somebody would be able to rattle off two, maybe three arcs where Tony Stark was at the top of his game, and doing fun stuff while beating up bad guys.
Or just give you this:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdd1snOzhL1rpok63o1_1280.jpg
I bet Superior Iron Man will be added to this list in the future, /co/ loves it.



"But Cheesegear, why don't writers just end arcs and finish the series, like Manga does?" because ending a money-making title doesn't make any more money.

Besides, most popular mangas have also been running long past expiration rate. Akira Toyirama wanted to end DragonBall 3 times before they let him - after Freeza Saga, after Cell Saga and after Buu Saga and only wih the last one he got it. Bleach was only allowed to end when sales plummeled hard and it still haven't got to the end anyway.


Instead of One More Day, why not just retire Parker as Spider-Man and have someone new? Simple. Because that new character wont be Peter Parker, he'll be some other person who people don't like. Perfect examples are Thor and Captain America. If Thor Odinson can't be Thor, God of Thunder, then it's not really Thor anymore, right? If Captain America isn't Steve Rogers, then it's no longer Captain America, right? Yes, you have some SJW issues where Thor, God of Thunder is a lady and an African-American is now Captain America, but, anybody with a working brain's complaint isn't about that, it's about the character who they like - Thor Odinson and Steve Rogers - not being the identity behind the book. It doesn't matter to these people who they put under the mantle, 'cause none of them will ever be Thor Odinson or Steve Rogers, SJW issues or not.

And you lost me. First of all, stop using SJW. It's more often than not used in mocking manner by opponents of people who care about social justice and it's kinda disrespectfull. Second, you seem to be confusing here few things and making big generalisation. It's not that it's impossible to make replacement for existing character, there are examples of it being done well. Venom going from Eddie Brock to Flash Thompson, Ghost Riders, etc. It's just that in these big franciches there is a strong sense of nostalgia, so if new characters in the role stops selling well (and these are firs-of-all money-making decisions) somebody will pitch an idea to bring the original back. So it was with Green Lanterns. But it doesn't sop you from enjoying or preffering Sam Wilson as Captain America or current Thor.



Where was I? Right. A movie has to entertain you for 90-120 minutes, and uses already-positive reviewed (old) material that people already like, they just have to translate the comic storyline onto the silver screen, which for any decent screenwriter and director should be easy (that's why adaptions are so popular after all, you're already working with something with a proven audience). A currently-running comic has to entertain you indefinitely using new material, generally under editorial mandate, and writers don't know that people will like new stuff until its printed.

Agreed on this through. Plus, with adaptations you can take best of various interpretations of characters or plot elments and weld them together.

[Avilan the Grey]

A lot of fans concluded Marvel HAD replaced PP with someone else. Or One More Day would not have happened...\

Edit: Gotham Academy? Wasn't that a failed cartoon pilot?
...No wait, that was Gotham High.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/5/55/Batman-gotham-high-cancelled-project-Class_Photo.croc.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120216231849

[Man on Fire]

Edit: Gotham Academy? Wasn't that a failed cartoon pilot?
...No wait, that was Gotham High.


http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TMSGA-promo-675x1024.jpg
It's a teen mystery series about adventures of group of kids in prestigious school in Gotham. Think Gunnerkrigg Court with Batman cameos and one of main girls is huge D&D* geek.

* - or rather lawyer-friendly D&D equivalent

[BeerMug Paladin]

Sorry, but I have to call bullmanure. Since start of Avengers continuity had become increibly confusing and sufferign fro mthe same problems comics one does.
Yeah, I agree with this, but for a different reason. Apparently there were things in that movie that I was supposed to know which the movie made absolutely no effort to set up during its own runtime.

I know this is apparently the case because someone offered an explanation to me for something that, as far as I know, wasn't actually noted within the movie at any point. Well, plus when I recently expressed my thoughts on the movie to my friends, they also told me that entire crossover movie franchise universe heavily relies on its audience already being fans and knowing a lot of stuff about the universe before the movie starts.

Suddenly, the utter discombobulated experience of watching the Thor movie makes a lot more sense now.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yeah, I agree with this, but for a different reason. Apparently there were things in that movie that I was supposed to know which the movie made absolutely no effort to set up during its own runtime.

I know this is apparently the case because someone offered an explanation to me for something that, as far as I know, wasn't actually noted within the movie at any point. Well, plus when I recently expressed my thoughts on the movie to my friends, they also told me that entire crossover movie franchise universe heavily relies on its audience already being fans and knowing a lot of stuff about the universe before the movie starts.

Suddenly, the utter discombobulated experience of watching the Thor movie makes a lot more sense now.

It's more a matter of them counting on you having seen ALL the other movies than them relying on you having knowledge of the comics.

[Tvtyrant]

Man on Fire, can you spoiler that please? It warps my screen.

I think the most evil Superhero is probably Green lantern. He has done some good things, some bad things, but mostly he hasn't done things. The opportunity costs his character accrues are crazy. He could terraform any none-inhabitated planet in seconds, end world conflicts, and fix environmental damages. Instead he punches bad guys.

[Man on Fire]

It's more a matter of them counting on you having seen ALL the other movies than them relying on you having knowledge of the comics.

And this is better how?

[lord_khaine]

I think the most evil Superhero is probably Green lantern. He has done some good things, some bad things, but mostly he hasn't done things. The opportunity costs his character accrues are crazy. He could terraform any none-inhabitated planet in seconds, end world conflicts, and fix environmental damages. Instead he punches bad guys.

Ahh.. i kinda think you have confused the Power Ring with a Ring of Wishes..

But even if it were the case that he could do that.. then it isnt something he should be doing. To start with his responsibility is a lot bigger than a single world, he has an entire space sector he needs to look out for.
And even then, what would terraforming other worlds do besides create a buttload of problems if people could not get there, or there for that matter wasnt the nececary infrastructure to handle it..?
And end world conflicts..? the best he could do there would either be to take over the world.. or else at the most enforce a cease fire to give time for some negotions.
As for for fixing enviromental damage.. if he did that.. dont you think people would just continue damaging it even more...?

[Prime32]

Does Superior Spider-Man count as an evil superhero?

[Tengu_temp]

Having an end in sight usually improves writing just by itself.
An example is Two and a Half men which has improved with several 100% percent.

Unfortunately, 200% of 0 is still 0.

[Avilan the Grey]

And this is better how?

It's possible, for one thing. And it is actually not an unrealistic expectation.

[Man on Fire]

Does Superior Spider-Man count as an evil superhero?

Well, he actually tried to be good even in his own twisted way. I suspect Superior Iron Man will easily top him.


It's possible, for one thing. And it is actually not an unrealistic expectation.

But you don't need to know 60 years of history to read today comics. Hell, it's actually discouraged from, because these days comics often contradicts old continuity. You're buying in one of dumbest myths in history of comics.

[BeerMug Paladin]

It's more a matter of them counting on you having seen ALL the other movies than them relying on you having knowledge of the comics.
My friends seemed to contradict that particular idea directly from what they told me. But whether or not that's actually true doesn't matter and wasn't what I meant to say. Some people just haven't seen all the movies.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's bad writing (but it is bad practice!) to completely ignore setups for a movie because another movie did the setup beforehand, but it certainly ensures the audience that can enjoy your movie is exclusively going to be a diminished one. And it's only going to get smaller with each new movie constructed with this approach.

Also, audiences can forget things over time, so it's usually a good idea to have refreshers for details that will become relevant for the plot. (If there is a plot.)



And this is better how?
It's possible, for one thing. And it is actually not an unrealistic expectation.
Hmm, I believe the entire point was that in order to enjoy the latest movie, you have to have seen all the other movies in the franchise, some of which may have nothing to do with what you'd like to see.

Anyway, I'm sure they'll fix this growing continuity snarl after their 50th movie in this universe. Probably about as competently as any comic company manages to tone down the continuity mess. They generally have a good track record for that kind of thing, right?

Oh, and I have read a handful of things that used long-established characters, of which I was ignorant of the larger continuity behind the character, and which somehow still managed to tell me what was going on.

Oh, and back to the topic of the thread, lots of superheroes depicted in Kingdom Come were pretty evil, generally speaking. I mean the ones engaging in open warfare in the city streets and causing general havok. But I can't off-hand remember names, if they even had names.

[Hyena]

I've just read up on superior Iron Man. Jesus, what a jackass.

[Prime32]

Does Superior Spider-Man count as an evil superhero?Well, he actually tried to be good even in his own twisted way. I suspect Superior Iron Man will easily top him.
I've just read up on superior Iron Man. Jesus, what a jackass.
See, while I haven't read his stories, I'm not sure if Superior Iron Man still counts as a hero rather than a villain. "Spock" meanwhile mostly tried to save people just to prove he was better at it than Peter (excepting rare cases where he could relate to the victim in some way).

[Devonix]

Man on Fire, can you spoiler that please? It warps my screen.

I think the most evil Superhero is probably Green lantern. He has done some good things, some bad things, but mostly he hasn't done things. The opportunity costs his character accrues are crazy. He could terraform any none-inhabitated planet in seconds, end world conflicts, and fix environmental damages. Instead he punches bad guys.

He's a space cop, not a god. You are severely overestimating his abilities. And some of the things that he could do such as flat out ending world confilcts are against the laws of the Corp, and would get any member kicked out on their emerald asses.

[Man on Fire]

Oh, and I have read a handful of things that used long-established characters, of which I was ignorant of the larger continuity behind the character, and which somehow still managed to tell me what was going on.


That's because a good comics makes use of existing continuity but is not slave of it. Good comics if it needs to bring up past story, in my opinion, should do it the way manga or tv does when character brings up an event from the past - they present it as a part of this story not a vague refference to other books. Keep it brief but don't make it too confusion, summary it up around. And honestly, it's more a matter of keepign the spirit of the characters than continuity, so that it feels we're reading about the same people.


I've just read up on superior Iron Man. Jesus, what a jackass.

Yup. Tha's the selling point - Tony, once you take his inhibitions and morals, becomes suprisingly hialrous.


See, while I haven't read his stories, I'm not sure if Superior Iron Man still counts as a hero rather than a villain.

No, so far in Superior Iron Man he is a villain protagonist. Bu in post-timeskip new Avengers he is still inverted but he tried to do a good thing and take down Cabal and now is outplaying their femme fatale/master manipulator Black Swan at her own game (or just flirting with her, hard to tell), so while he is top level jackass, it seems there is still some good in him.

[Starwulf]

Since when was punisher and Deadpool heroes?

Punisher is a vigilante waging a one man war on crime, a war in which he kills his enemies.
Deadpool is a mercenary and assassin for hire.

Neither of these two are white hat wearing good guys. They both hold to morals that arn't exactly the norm for superheroes.

Oddly enough I"m not one much for comic book heroes anymore(hence it's a surprise I'm in this thread), but after reading this I felt the need to add my two bits in and say that I certainly consider The Punisher a hero, as well as anyone else whose primary motive is to beat down the bad guys when other people refuse to even try. I don't give one copper pence whether or not they kill the bad guys, who cares if they do? That doesn't make them "not a hero" in my book, personally I find it a hell of a lot more realistic, and a hell of a lot smarter then your typical superhero who just captures and throws the bad guys in prison for them to escape YET again, thus allowing the bad guy to continue to wreak havoc, and more then likely kill people. Personally I think guys like Superman are the real "anti-hero" characters, their actions more often then not result in lots of people dying or at least being seriously injured because they lack the resolve to put the bad guy down for good. Give me Punisher or Deadpool any day of the week.

[Kitten Champion]

Oddly enough I"m not one much for comic book heroes anymore(hence it's a surprise I'm in this thread), but after reading this I felt the need to add my two bits in and say that I certainly consider The Punisher a hero, as well as anyone else whose primary motive is to beat down the bad guys when other people refuse to even try. I don't give one copper pence whether or not they kill the bad guys, who cares if they do? That doesn't make them "not a hero" in my book, personally I find it a hell of a lot more realistic, and a hell of a lot smarter then your typical superhero who just captures and throws the bad guys in prison for them to escape YET again, thus allowing the bad guy to continue to wreak havoc, and more then likely kill people. Personally I think guys like Superman are the real "anti-hero" characters, their actions more often then not result in lots of people dying or at least being seriously injured because they lack the resolve to put the bad guy down for good. Give me Punisher or Deadpool any day of the week.

I wouldn't include Deadpool in that argument. From a certain perspective Punisher does have heroic aspirations, even if his means are suspect.

Deadpool's just a crazy mercenary.

[Starwulf]

I wouldn't include Deadpool in that argument. From a certain perspective Punisher does have heroic aspirations, even if his means are suspect.

Deadpool's just a crazy mercenary.

My apologies then, as I said I don't read comics nowadays(the last time I did I don't even think Deadpool existed, it was back when Superman had fought and lost against that big hulking monstrosity(doomsday?) and supposedly "died"), I was just going off what a few other comments had mentioned about how this Deadpool guy mostly went after the "untouchable" bad guys nowadays.

[TeChameleon]

Eh- even the 'Pool had his moments, at least before he became the head clown in Marvel's three-ring circus. Back before he had to be all-wacky-all-the-time, he was surprisingly introspective (at least for Deadpool), and genuinely wanted to be a hero. That being said, he's still pretty psychotic and murderous.

As far as 'evil superheroes'... I'd have to nominate the Authority, and maybe the Ultimates, at least during certain portions of their respective runs. The Authority were a bunch of hedonistic self-serving jackasses for a good chunk of their early run, happily rewriting the world to their whims with functionally zero understanding of the consequences of their actions or even really what they were doing. Sure, they probably had sorta-kinda good intentions, but eesh... As far as the Ultimates go... meh. Not evil, maybe, but definitely a bunch of prima donnas with vicious attitude problems and more dysfunctions than multiple seasons of Family Guy.

EDIT- Oh, and as far as 'superheroes killing people' goes... in the state the industry's in nowadays, the point's pretty moot. The Justice League have killed (or good-as-killed- people coming back from the dead actually happens more often than someone coming back from being chucked into the Source Wall) Darkseid on multiple occasions, and the only real difference it's made has been the next writer who wanted to use him needing a slightly more convoluted explanation than normal for him to show up. Hell, even back in the Silver Age, Magneto 'died' basically every time he showed up. Doctor Doom as well, for that matter.

Honestly, it gets to the point that this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL6J7FJmy1c) actually seems less silly than the actual comics >.O

So yeh, even if Superman started crushing his enemies' heads like grapes and Spider-Man stole Punisher's armory and started using it on every villain he could find, it wouldn't matter. They'd just show back up again with some contrived explanation, or even with no explanation. I'm not even sure how many of the various major villains haven't died -_-;

[Starwulf]

So yeh, even if Superman started crushing his enemies' heads like grapes and Spider-Man stole Punisher's armory and started using it on every villain he could find, it wouldn't matter. They'd just show back up again with some contrived explanation, or even with no explanation. I'm not even sure how many of the various major villains haven't died -_-;

Sometimes I've considered going back to comics, but that line right there is a prime reason why I won't. I hate the revolving door for life in stuff like comics, and even in anime(it's really the only real gripe I have with stuff like Bleach, I'd be happy if someone who dies actually stayed dead, it adds a sense of realism), if someone dies, they should stay dead. I'd be happy if the Superheroes went with a "Kill on sight" policy for super villains, but like you said, the next writer would just find some convoluted reason to bring them back instead of inventing a new villain and maybe breathing new life into the comic realm.(Reboots don't count, if anything they annoy me more then revolving door life policies)

[Bhu]

A few who definitely deserve mention:

The Chief (Doom Patrol)

Ant Man

Professor X

[Man on Fire]

Deadpool's just a crazy mercenary.

http://i.imgur.com/PTuugYf.jpg

There was also time in Uncanny X-Force where their mission ended with Fantomex killing kid who was reborn Apocalypse, which lead to Deadpool chewing entire team for killing a kid. Later sad kid has been brought back (long story) and deadpool became his best friend, leading to touching moments like this (http://hellyeahteensuperheroes.tumblr.com/post/66263137972/uncanny-x-force-2010-35).


As far as 'evil superheroes'... I'd have to nominate the Authority, and maybe the Ultimates, at least during certain portions of their respective runs. The Authority were a bunch of hedonistic self-serving jackasses for a good chunk of their early run, happily rewriting the world to their whims with functionally zero understanding of the consequences of their actions or even really what they were doing. Sure, they probably had sorta-kinda good intentions, but eesh

Depending on who's writing. Warren Ellis Authority had a bit of authoritarian thendencies and were willing to commit mass murder to save the world, things yo describe didn't kick in until Mark Millar took the book over.

[Brother Oni]

Sorry, but I have to call bullmanure. Since start of Avengers continuity had become increibly confusing and sufferign fro mthe same problems comics one does.

I agree that the movies have their issues, but it's still significantly more simple to bring someone up to speed on the MCU than the comics - if someone asked "I'd like to know more, where do I start?", the simple answer is 'Watch them in chronological order, starting with Iron Man in 2008".

Your use of modern Loki is a excellent example of how impenetrable starting out can be (I wouldn't even know where to start unless you told me and it still took me some digging to find all those titles). A quick look at modern Spiderman indicates ~5 different titles with Peter Parker as Spider man (admittedly one of those is a reprint) and at least 2 different continuities.



Avengers #24 has his:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-x2CoFzoVzjA/Ur9c9ozfmyI/AAAAAAAAY0s/bfVV6h_jL3c/s1600/av24t.jpg
And next page, which I cannot find has Hulk carrying hundreds of hot dogs on his shoulders.

As mentioned, I stopped reading superhero comics a while ago, but it's nice to see them showing fun scenes like that.

[MLai]

There was also time in Uncanny X-Force where their mission ended with Fantomex killing kid who was reborn Apocalypse, which lead to Deadpool chewing entire team for killing a kid. Later sad kid has been brought back (long story) and deadpool became his best friend, leading to touching moments like this (http://hellyeahteensuperheroes.tumblr.com/post/66263137972/uncanny-x-force-2010-35)..
While that's cute in and of itself, it's also entirely bull**** if you consider the character as a whole. Deadpool would not bat a single cancerous eyelash to killing a boy who seems to be in his mid-teens. Random gangbangers he mows down on the mean streets are probably that old, and they deserve to die far less than Apocalypse.


As mentioned, I stopped reading superhero comics a while ago, but it's nice to see them showing fun scenes like that.
And it's also complete bull****. How long has Thor lived on Earth? How long had he inhabited a human host? He knows what hotdogs are, for F's sake.

Like someone else has already said, this is the cost of interminable background history weighing these characters down, and one of the big reasons why people like us never read regular comics anymore.

[Cheesegear]

Like someone else has already said, this is the cost of interminable background history weighing these characters down

Welcome to 20xx, that argument no longer holds water. With access to the internet, many characters currently running have their entire 40+ year history written down, and much of that is even retconned and therefore irrelevant. Nobody needs to read 40, 20, or even ten years' worth of comics to get up to date. Maybe you'll get something like Blackest Night where everyone who is dead comes back to life and everyone whose been dead gets mind controlled, and you may need to know who some of these 'new' characters are and how the heck did your favourite character die twenty years ago? But Blackest Night is far from a regular thing.

As Man On Fire pointed out for Iron-Man, /co/ has a bunch of story arcs for you to read if you're really interested in a character for you to get up to date. If you want to read about a certain story-line, you can pick up a Trade, they are things that exist. If you want to read a character, just read them. If you want to read a story-line, just read it. If you don't want to read comics because you've grown out of them, or you don't really feel like spending money on them, fine (the good stories will make it to trade, and have already-positive reviews so you know what you're getting). But don't pretend that a character's long, long history is weighing you down and preventing you from reading them, because we're in the Internet Age, and you can get backstory whenever you want.

In order to watch Nolan's Batman trilogy, I need to have watched the Batman 1966 TV Series, right?

[MLai]

Welcome to 20xx, that argument no longer holds water. With access to the internet...
You don't seem to understand the thrust of my post. I don't care how many times Deadpool or Thor has died. I don't care about what they did 50 issues ago, 100 issues ago.

I do care that when the writer makes a joke "Hurr hurr Thor doesn't know what a hot dog is", even someone like me who is completely out of the loop can point to that and say "That's bull****" because even I know that Thor masqueraded as a human dude (or possessed the human dude or whatever) for many years. And even I know that whatever cute little moment Deadpool gets with Apocalypse Jr doesn't mean jack because he is still a psychotic prick before and after that issue. Deadpool does not have genuine character growth or redemption, so that issue means nothing in the end.

That's the weight of interminable history. These characters don't get to have thematic arcs. They get filler episodes which are forgotten or retconned. They get character moments which are fundamentally unbelievable because you know in your gut that they're rehashed from when the character was new. When I look at a comics hero, instead of seeing a person I see an amorphous blob who is everybody and nobody.

[Man on Fire]

While that's cute in and of itself, it's also entirely bull**** if you consider the character as a whole. Deadpool would not bat a single cancerous eyelash to killing a boy who seems to be in his mid-teens. Random gangbangers he mows down on the mean streets are probably that old, and they deserve to die far less than Apocalypse.

Kid Apocalypse they killed was actually quite younger, still a pre-teen. And Deadpool never killed a kid (http://i.imgur.com/YAhlBxT.jpg). When they brought him back there was some time-related bullmanure so he lived to his teenage years...on a farm, raised by two decent people (see what they did here?). And became good person. When villains tried to force him to be Apocalypse, Deadpool saved him. Now the guy is in Wolverine's school and adopted codename Genesis (getit?).
The thing about him is a question of nature vs nuture, whenever or not Evan is bound to become Apocalypse or can avoid this fate, which tied to the theme of that series whenever or not it's actually right to kill villains before they commit their crimes.


And it's also complete bull****. How long has Thor lived on Earth? How long had he inhabited a human host? He knows what hotdogs are, for F's sake.

Really? You're going to throw a fuss over such insignifican joke? I get people who were mad about giving Carol Darvens beer pie in the same issue but this is just silly.
And as a matter of fact, Loki has been on Earth as long as Thor, scheming on many levels of social structure, and until being reborn as a kid he didn't knew what hot-dogs are either.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/Tee-Cee/scan0004.jpg


Like someone else has already said, this is the cost of interminable background history weighing these characters down, and one of the big reasons why people like us never read regular comics anymore.

No, it's just people like you who want to wight it down so you can have an excuse. Continuity in comics is in many places loose. Sure, there are important places where consistency matters, like character development or powers, but there are those in which it doesn't and Asgardians eating hot-dogs is one of them.


Welcome to 20xx, that argument no longer holds water. With access to the internet, many characters currently running have their entire 40+ year history written down, and much of that is even retconned and therefore irrelevant. Nobody needs to read 40, 20, or even ten years' worth of comics to get up to date. Maybe you'll get something like Blackest Night where everyone who is dead comes back to life and everyone whose been dead gets mind controlled, and you may need to know who some of these 'new' characters are and how the heck did your favourite character die twenty years ago? But Blackest Night is far from a regular thing.

As Man On Fire pointed out for Iron-Man, /co/ has a bunch of story arcs for you to read if you're really interested in a character for you to get up to date. If you want to read about a certain story-line, you can pick up a Trade, they are things that exist. If you want to read a character, just read them. If you want to read a story-line, just read it. If you don't want to read comics because you've grown out of them, or you don't really feel like spending money on them, fine (the good stories will make it to trade, and have already-positive reviews so you know what you're getting). But don't pretend that a character's long, long history is weighing you down and preventing you from reading them, because we're in the Internet Age, and you can get backstory whenever you want.

Agreed on all of this. Except maybe that Trade thing, because there are good comics that haven't been collected in trades (like Dwayne McDuffie and Garth Ennis' runs on Etrigan the Demon) but their number decreases steadily anyway.


And even I know that whatever cute little moment Deadpool gets with Apocalypse Jr doesn't mean jack because he is still a psychotic prick before and after that issue. Deadpool does not have genuine character growth or redemption, so that issue means nothing in the end.

Spoken as somebody who clearly never read Deadpool. It might suprise you, but there is a lot of personal growth for this guy, he is, in good hands, very introspective. And hell, there are moments when he can be downrigh depressing because at the end of the day he is a tragic character, funny makeup or not. "the Good, the Bad and the Ugly" storyline had one such moment:

Deadpool tries to get a guy who was kidnapping him for years and using his body parts to create supersoldiers for North Korea, save victims of said experiments and woman who might or might not have gave birth to his child. And his actions are reckless and lead to this:
http://i.imgur.com/PEgBGr6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/j9CBleU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FQ51h4t.jpg

[MLai]

Really? You're going to throw a fuss over such insignifican joke?

No, it's just people like you who want to wight it down so you can have an excuse. Continuity in comics is in many places loose. Sure, there are important places where consistency matters, like character development or powers, but there are those in which it doesn't and Asgardians eating hot-dogs is one of them.
No, I'm going to use it as an example of the disease. Which I did.

Only in comics is continuity subjective and selective.
"Of course it's stupid that they don't know what hot dogs are, but c'mon it's just a joke." You try that in a book and people will tell you it's immersion-breaking and downright unbelievable like you never lived in the USA, but in a comic book apparently it's okay for the sake of a joke.
"There are important places where consistency matters... but there are those in which it doesn't..." Yeah try that in a book. On page 26 you tell the readers the protag is lactose intolerant. On page 226 he's scarfing down pizzas. It's called piss poor writing. But it's okay in a comic book because comic book.

Yeah and sometimes Deadpool is a coldblooded killer, and sometimes he has a nervous breakdown because he sees some dead ppl. He's not a character he's an amorphous blob.

[Metahuman1]

Stark Trek, Star Wars and Dr. Who's none comic book expanded universes all say Hi.


And that's literally just SOME of the examples that come instantly to mind.

[Man on Fire]

"There are important places where consistency matters... but there are those in which it doesn't..." Yeah try that in a book. On page 26 you tell the readers the protag is lactose intolerant. On page 226 he's scarfing down pizzas. It's called piss poor writing. But it's okay in a comic book because comic book.

First, something like that actually is important, just like if somebody is an alcoholic. Health problems, addicions, traumas, But whnever or not guy has eat a hot dog is not one of them.
But you see...comics are not books. You aren't reading one big huge-a*s book that never ends. It's more like a series of novels. Specific writer's run on a character might be an equivalent of a novel or few, maybe a trilogy depending how big it is. But series made by multiple writers is more like a series of books in expanded universe and they DO have continuity errors, not to mention authors outright retconning things or arguing over potrayal of some things (Star Wars EU). Doctor Who EU is so big nad convoluded they had to exclude some series from it into it's own separate canons, if I understand it correctly (Fraction Paradox?) and it still operates under the rule that anything contradicting tv series is excluded from continuity. And even in the show we have instancs of incosistences - I mean every time Weeping Angels showed up they were operating under completely different rules. With long runners even under writing of the same creator inconsistences happen - Terry Prachett himself had this problem.

[Cheesegear]

These characters don't get to have thematic arcs.

Strongly disagree. Are you trying to say that Batman: Hush isn't a good story because at some point it was retconned away? The Killing Joke isn't an amazing book? Superman: Red Son, or All-Star Superman aren't some of the best Superman stories that exist because they're not in mainstream continuity? Or the Spider-Verse books for a Marvel example?

Morrison's run on Batman & Robin where Grayson steps up to become Batman, with Damien as Robin, and Yost writes Red Robin and Tim turns out to be more like Bruce than Grayson ever was? That's some really good stuff. Then New 52 came out with an entire new set of continuity. But, see, the thing is, I still have Battle for the Cowl, and Grayson-as-Batman books, and Tim-as-Red Robin. The New 52 can't change the books I already own. The New 52 can only change what comes later, in its separate continuity after Flashpoint Paradox (another terrible story because it's out of continuity, right?). New 52 can't change Hush. New 52 can't rewrite Killing Joke.

At worst, I can treat pre-New 52 Batman & Robin and Red Robin as a series that ended on a good note, which is what people want, right? For the series to end before it becomes stale, like Manga (except not really in a lot of cases)? If I want to read New 52 Batman, I can if I want, but whatever happens in the New 52 wont change the fact that the Battle for the Cowl was a thing that actually happened, and that Grayson really was Batman for a while.

I shouldn't read Court of Owls, Night of the Owls or Death of the Family, 'cause one day, maybe, they might be removed from continuity? No. Just no.

Also, you're not allowed to enjoy Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy anymore because Ben Affleck's Batman is going to be different. Also, Batman: The Animated Series is also terrible because there have been several iterations of Batman cartoon since then which remove it from continuity, so you're not allowed to like that, either.

Now we've veered far off-topic.

[007_ctrl_room]

Punisher & Black Widow.

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)

[Mystic Muse]

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)

That's entirely a point of view thing. Plenty of people believe revenge is NEVER justified.

[Avilan the Grey]

Point is that a lot of people see the initial act of vengeance as justified. Massacring small time drug dealers who operate out of college? Not so much. Which is why he kind of stopped doing that after he got his own book, and stopped being "that villain that tries to shoot Daredevil all the time" (he was, after all introduced as a pure villain).

[t209]

Spoken as somebody who clearly never read Deadpool. It might suprise you, but there is a lot of personal growth for this guy, he is, in good hands, very introspective. And hell, there are moments when he can be downrigh depressing because at the end of the day he is a tragic character, funny makeup or not. "the Good, the Bad and the Ugly" storyline had one such moment:

Deadpool tries to get a guy who was kidnapping him for years and using his body parts to create supersoldiers for North Korea, save victims of said experiments and woman who might or might not have gave birth to his child. And his actions are reckless and lead to this:
http://i.imgur.com/PEgBGr6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/j9CBleU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FQ51h4t.jpg

Kinda sad for the goofy psychopath to have a breakdown like this since
Pinkie Pie in Party of One, Thorfinn in Vinland Saga after his half Welsh captain killed by Royal Guard when the king planned to invade Wales, and Mako after his dad's death in Saga..

[Cheesegear]

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)

Ghost Rider says 'Yes.'

As I said earlier in the thread, The Punisher ignores due process and goes straight to execution first-degree murder, second-degree murder, third-degree murder and manslaughter. Depending on who you ask, this may or may not be okay, and is brought up several times in his title all the time. Sometimes it is justified, sometimes it's not. Which brings us to the second point of Punisher - he's his own arbiter. There's no oversight committee on Castle (except when there is). Who decides who is guilty? Frank does. Who judges who gets executed murdered? Frank does. Who decides if Punisher is doing the right thing? Frank does. He does what he wants, when he wants.
(Also see; Superior Spider-Man)

There's a lot of problems with how Frank Castle does business.

[Starwulf]

Ghost Rider says 'Yes.'

As I said earlier in the thread, The Punisher ignores due process and goes straight to execution first-degree murder, second-degree murder, third-degree murder and manslaughter. Depending on who you ask, this may or may not be okay, and is brought up several times in his title all the time. Sometimes it is justified, sometimes it's not. Which brings us to the second point of Punisher - he's his own arbiter. There's no oversight committee on Castle (except when there is). Who decides who is guilty? Frank does. Who judges who gets executed murdered? Frank does. Who decides if Punisher is doing the right thing? Frank does. He does what he wants, when he wants.
(Also see; Superior Spider-Man)

There's a lot of problems with how Frank Castle does business.

Has he(The Punisher) ever executed someone who was totally innocent of the crimes he believed them to have committed? If no, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he's done. Due process rarely pans out in favor of justice, if he's executing crime lords who are responsible for hundreds/thousands/more people being murdered or addicted to drugs, then he's doing society a favor.

[theNater]

Has he(The Punisher) ever executed someone who was totally innocent of the crimes he believed them to have committed?
He's absolutely tried. The one I know of managed to survive thanks to Spider-Sense, but if you're thinking of things realistically, they can't all have been so fortunate.

If no, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he's done.
He has opened fire on litterbugs. In fairness, they were actually guilty of littering.

[Starwulf]

He's absolutely tried. The one I know of managed to survive thanks to Spider-Sense, but if you're thinking of things realistically, they can't all have been so fortunate.

He has opened fire on litterbugs. In fairness, they were actually guilty of littering.

Alright, then I can see where his actions are pretty damn bad. If his executions were solely reserved for serious crime committers, I personally wouldn't see an issue with it, but if he's gone after litterbugs, and even other Superheroes, then yeah, he's got issues ^^

[Frozen_Feet]

Retribution is just only when it's proportionate. Disproportionate retribution leads to escalation and a circle of revenge, increasing the amount of suffering in the world each step. This is why characters like the Punisher or Rorscach are at best anti-heroes; the reasons why they do what they do maybe valid, but what they do isn't.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=theNater;18726298
He has opened fire on litterbugs. In fairness, they were actually guilty of littering.[/QUOTE]

Wsn't that explained by the fact he was drugged by his enemies at the time ?

[Traab]

Wasnt the spiderman thing due to bad intel on his part? With the bugle and who knows what else constantly accusing him of crimes, it was fairly reasonable to think he was a bad guy. And before you point out his heroics, keep in mind even the king pin wipes out various criminal elements, if only to maintain his control over the city. Not too mention numerous philanthropist type charities and such to keep his public image up. Its not a stretch to see spiderman as a bad guy protecting his turf. "Noone is allowed to rob these banks but ME!"

On an unrelated note, I still cant believe how long it took me to notice how freaking STRANGE it is that spiderman is in the superhero capitol of the world, and yet he almost never sees a fellow hero around, or gets any help. This dude is constantly punching above his weight class, not even counting events like the sinister six popping up on a bi monthly basis. How many other heroes or teams find themselves facing half to three quarters of their entire rogues gallery at once on such a regular basis? I know why from the meta direction it happens that way, but it just seems so out of place that he is virtually on his own despite numerous other solo heroes and small to large teams of heroes all situated in new york as well.

[Kitten Champion]

On an unrelated note, I still cant believe how long it took me to notice how freaking STRANGE it is that spiderman is in the superhero capitol of the world, and yet he almost never sees a fellow hero around, or gets any help. This dude is constantly punching above his weight class, not even counting events like the sinister six popping up on a bi monthly basis. How many other heroes or teams find themselves facing half to three quarters of their entire rogues gallery at once on such a regular basis? I know why from the meta direction it happens that way, but it just seems so out of place that he is virtually on his own despite numerous other solo heroes and small to large teams of heroes all situated in new york as well.


He's Marvel's Batman, essentially. One of very few characters capable of routinely selling a solo title profitably, and with a deep enough fictional world to his own that he doesn't really need the rest of the Marvel Universe to function.

That said, he has been an Avenger, and team-ups are a pretty frequent thing with him as well. In fact they made a whole title around just Spider-Man related team-ups. So, if you want those stories, they're there, but they tend to fall to the way-side for his main book.

[theNater]

Wasnt the spiderman thing due to bad intel on his part?
Yes, which is exactly why operating like the Punisher is a bad thing. However careful one is, one will get bad intel at some point. In the long run, killing criminals also means mistakenly killing innocents.

[Metahuman1]

Course the same thing can be said of law enforcement. Hell, frame ups are a long standing plot line for story's that involve law enforcement for that reason.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Except the point of law officers isn't to kill lawbreakers.

The point of the Punisher is simple. He's action-genocide-man. You know, like Liam Neeson in Taken. Or The Fixer in Holy Terror.

Placed in a real universe, instead of a fictional black and white fantasy universe, makes him a bad guy. He can't really be anything but that in a more contemplative story.

[theNater]

Course the same thing can be said of law enforcement. Hell, frame ups are a long standing plot line for story's that involve law enforcement for that reason.
Indeed, most superheroes with any kind of history have gone after someone innocent at one point or another. But it's worth noting that when Spider-Man webs someone innocent to a wall, they are inconvenienced for a couple of hours, not dead.

[Traab]

Indeed, most superheroes with any kind of history have gone after someone innocent at one point or another. But it's worth noting that when Spider-Man webs someone innocent to a wall, they are inconvenienced for a couple of hours, not dead.

Meh, this is marvel, most dead people are inconvenienced for a couple hours tops.

[theNater]

Meh, this is marvel, most dead people are inconvenienced for a couple hours tops.
I'll grant that death is usually a temporary condition, but as far as I'm aware a couple of months is closer to average, and there's often side effects to coming back that keep the inconvenience running even after the death is over. See: Winter Soldier.

[Anteros]

Wasnt the spiderman thing due to bad intel on his part? With the bugle and who knows what else constantly accusing him of crimes, it was fairly reasonable to think he was a bad guy. And before you point out his heroics, keep in mind even the king pin wipes out various criminal elements, if only to maintain his control over the city. Not too mention numerous philanthropist type charities and such to keep his public image up. Its not a stretch to see spiderman as a bad guy protecting his turf. "Noone is allowed to rob these banks but ME!"

On an unrelated note, I still cant believe how long it took me to notice how freaking STRANGE it is that spiderman is in the superhero capitol of the world, and yet he almost never sees a fellow hero around, or gets any help. This dude is constantly punching above his weight class, not even counting events like the sinister six popping up on a bi monthly basis. How many other heroes or teams find themselves facing half to three quarters of their entire rogues gallery at once on such a regular basis? I know why from the meta direction it happens that way, but it just seems so out of place that he is virtually on his own despite numerous other solo heroes and small to large teams of heroes all situated in new york as well.

It was definitely bad intel (at least in the story I own.) However, you should probably at least do some research on your targets before you take it upon yourself to murder people for their "crimes".

Also, Spider Man runs into other heroes all the time. There are plenty of stories where he even calls other heroes and asks for help if he knows his current villain outclasses him.

[Avilan the Grey]

It was definitely bad intel (at least in the story I own.) However, you should probably at least do some research on your targets before you take it upon yourself to murder people for their "crimes".

Also, Spider Man runs into other heroes all the time. There are plenty of stories where he even calls other heroes and asks for help if he knows his current villain outclasses him.

Also, he came very close to killing Daredevil, just because he was protecting small time crooks from him.

[Metahuman1]

Repeatedly.



And no, death is not a temporary condition for everyone. You can try to sell me on that when you can show me modern, in canon, panels of bystanders killed by super villains coming back to life in mass.

Hell, try to tell me that when you can show me a main universe Lian Harper alive and well and not a new born infant again.

[Lizard Lord]

I would say all the members of Marvel's Illuminati. Using your influence to control the world from the shadows is what villains do (or at least try to). Specifically Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Black Bolt, Namor, Mr. Fantastic, Beast, and Hulk (I am including after he becomes the intelligent Doc Green).

I initially agreed with the Registration Act, but was extremely bothered by the lengths they went to enforce it. Most of those lengths were the fault of Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Hank Pym, and Maria Hill. However, I think that I was making an invalid assumption and possibly making a subconscious decision to misinterpret the S.R.A.'s goal. Namely, for a while in the story, I had mentally translated the name to the Super Hero Registration Act when it is in fact Superhuman. Though I was not the only one who was mistaken as She-Hulk, someone that was Pro-Registration, fought for the freedoms of those that had powers but did not use them to fight crime. I started to wake up with Luke Cage's speech about how the S.R.A. was persecuting those that were different. Also when Punisher only got involved because Iron Man was recruiting villains to his side in exchange for a pardon. Meaning that one of, if not the, most dangerous and violent rogue vigilantes in the Marvel Earth was being left alone merely because he didn't have powers. Iron Man and the other leaders of the Registration Act might as well be racists, especially with Inhumans and Mutants being entire races with super powers. If they remake the registration act to actually be anti-vigilante rather than anti-supers I would be all for it.

Then Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Namor, Black Bolt, and Dr. Strange sent Hulk, a friend and teamate off planet rather than try to use their near infinite resources, unmatched intelligence (in the case of I.M. and Mr. F) and Strange's magic powers to try and cure the Hulk. (Sure there are story reasons why the Hulk will never be permanently cured, but that doesn't really excuse the characters. They aren't Deadpool.) Then when the Hulk comes back he isn't looking to conquer the world or destroy New York. He only wants the Illuminati. Instead of turning themselves in to face what they did (even if they didn't do what Hulk was really mad about) they not only risk countless civilians, heroes, and property damage to fight the Hulk. They also go to extreme lengths to fight him such as Iron Man trying to convince the insane (and hesitant because he knows he is insane) Sentry and Dr. Strange allowing a demon to possess himself. This is not what Heroes do. Heroes make the sacrifices so that others don't have to be sacrificed. They do not risk everything just to save their own lives. (Anti-heroes, anti-villains, and straight up villains may do what they did in World War Hulk, but not heroes.)

Then there is the whole incursion thing and time runs out thing where they all handled it badly. Namor may have been the only one to actually manage to pull the trigger (not to mention that he freed Thanos and led the Cabal to destroy more worlds) they all intended to commit genocide. With time runs out, rather than just telling Steve Rogers right awat that they would answer for what they did once they take care of the Cabal and solve the incursions problem, they continuously run away wasting not only a bunch of their own time and resources but Shield's as well (who is only trying to do what Super Heroes do and make sure genocidal criminals and their accomplices find justice for what they have done). Mocking the former Captain America while they do so no less.

I am honestly not sure if I should give Black Panther a pass since he had put aside his vengeance, accepted exile from his people, and then decided against pushing the button. On the other hand he was still partially responsible for getting that far with it and, unlike the others (Namor included), refused to accept punishment for it. Granted it may be because he feels like he was punished enough, but I don't think that should be his call.


Black Bolt gets extra villain points for intentionally causing the whole Inhumanity thing, forcing countless people to transform against their will. I am pissed that it seems like he is going to be king again.

I want to also give Beast villain points for pulling the original X-men out of their own time, but I am honestly not familiar enough with that story to pass judgement on it.

Though I honestly get the feeling that that's the point. That they became bad people somewhere along the way in the course of their hero careers. (Beast was yelled at by his past self and Wong flat out told Strange that he isn't a good person anymore.) I feel like I would have picked up Superior Iron Man if it were a natural progression instead of a magic spell that caused him to be an anti-hero/villain protagonist.

[Lurkmoar]

And no, death is not a temporary condition for everyone. You can try to sell me on that when you can show me modern, in canon, panels of bystanders killed by super villains coming back to life in mass.

Hell, try to tell me that when you can show me a main universe Lian Harper alive and well and not a new born infant again.

Do cosmic retcons count? Like when Nebula snatched the Infinity Gauntlet from Thanos who at that point wiped out half of all life in the universe? Because that did happen, and as far as I can tell, still canon. I feel that's an exception though.

Every time I start to get over Lian, a new wound opens up. :smallfrown:

[Killer Angel]

I first thought of The Punisher too on this question, but revenge/vengeance is justified, isn't it? :)


That's entirely a point of view thing. Plenty of people believe revenge is NEVER justified.

IMO, to be fully justified, vengeance must fulfill justice, and it also must be the only possible solution. (case in point: Inigo Montoya)

[HandofShadows]

Then when the Hulk comes back he isn't looking to conquer the world or destroy New York. He only wants the Illuminati. Instead of turning themselves in to face what they did (even if they didn't do what Hulk was really mad about) they not only risk countless civilians, heroes, and property damage to fight the Hulk. They also go to extreme lengths to fight him such as Iron Man trying to convince the insane (and hesitant because he knows he is insane) Sentry and Dr. Strange allowing a demon to possess himself.

Actually the Hulk DID say he intended to destroy New York. How is destroying the city leaving MILLION homeless justice? If the Hulk had really only wanted justice, then he would have only gone after the Illuminati. But no, he was looking for revenge against them for a crime they did NOT commit. He just dressed it up as justice.

[Traab]

I was actually kidding about the death thing, sorry, shoulda put a :smalltongue: smiley there to show it. Was making a joke about the revolving death door of comic land. Just for arguments sake though, once again, most bad guys will from time to time team up with the heroes. Usually to face a bigger threat or as a plot to gain advantage later. And im pretty sure if castle went to the avengers or the fantastic four or whoever, he would quickly find himself incarcerated, what with him being a killer and all. So really, aside from taking a few months to spy on spiderman (which wouldnt be easy and could take forever to setup a way to follow him without getting caught) all he has to rely on is word of mouth. Which is mixed at best.

[theNater]

Just for arguments sake though, once again, most bad guys will from time to time team up with the heroes. Usually to face a bigger threat or as a plot to gain advantage later. And im pretty sure if castle went to the avengers or the fantastic four or whoever, he would quickly find himself incarcerated, what with him being a killer and all. So really, aside from taking a few months to spy on spiderman (which wouldnt be easy and could take forever to setup a way to follow him without getting caught) all he has to rely on is word of mouth. Which is mixed at best.
This isn't a mitigating factor, because Punisher knows word of mouth is unreliable, but still tries to kill people based on it. That's worse, not better.

[Reverent-One]

Then Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Namor, Black Bolt, and Dr. Strange sent Hulk, a friend and teamate off planet rather than try to use their near infinite resources, unmatched intelligence (in the case of I.M. and Mr. F) and Strange's magic powers to try and cure the Hulk. (Sure there are story reasons why the Hulk will never be permanently cured, but that doesn't really excuse the characters. They aren't Deadpool.) Then when the Hulk comes back he isn't looking to conquer the world or destroy New York. He only wants the Illuminati. Instead of turning themselves in to face what they did (even if they didn't do what Hulk was really mad about) they not only risk countless civilians, heroes, and property damage to fight the Hulk. They also go to extreme lengths to fight him such as Iron Man trying to convince the insane (and hesitant because he knows he is insane) Sentry and Dr. Strange allowing a demon to possess himself. This is not what Heroes do. Heroes make the sacrifices so that others don't have to be sacrificed. They do not risk everything just to save their own lives. (Anti-heroes, anti-villains, and straight up villains may do what they did in World War Hulk, but not heroes.)

In addition to what HandofShadows pointed out, they DID try to cure Bruce. Many times. They go over in the comic how they've tried everything they can to fix him, but he's still a time bomb waiting to go off and Banner still would commit suicide if he was able to. Sending the Hulk out to a calm planet to live out his days in peace (where Bruce doesn't have to worry about hurting innocents anymore) doesn't mean that the "heroic" thing to do would be to turn themselves over to the Hulk when he comes back angry for something else entirely, even if he wasn't going to destory all of New York too (though, as mentioned, he totally was). Notice that once he learned the truth about Sakaar, even the Hulk wasn't angry at them anymore.

EDIT: Also, there was even a "What if?" comic, which included the ""What If Hulk landed where the Illuminati intended" possibility, and the Hulk ended up being totally happy.

[Metahuman1]

Except for the fact that the Illuminati screwed up on this little self appointed endeavor, which means there just as responsible as if they'd intended to send him there.

And then they blew it again by killing his wife after he'd FIXED there little screw up in order to try to impose there no longer necessary original idea on him because they've all got god complexes by now.




So, no, coming back and demanding there heads made perfect sense.




Edit: Ok, that was one. Can I now get all of Carnage's victims back? All of Whip Lash and Crimson Dynamo's? All of Abominations? All of Red Skulls? All of Kingpin's? Can I get Gwen Stacy back? Peggy Carter? Howard Stark?

Yeah, that was a one time thing.

[Reverent-One]

Except for the fact that the Illuminati screwed up on this little self appointed endeavor, which means there just as responsible as if they'd intended to send him there.

So? The point being they weren't being evil, but attempting to find a solution to a problem that would have benefitted everyone.


And then they blew it again by killing his wife after he'd FIXED there little screw up in order to try to impose there no longer necessary original idea on him because they've all got god complexes by now.

Except, as was discovered during that arc, they didn't kill his wife. It was Red King loyalists. Which is why after finding out the truth, he no longer wanted their heads.

[Traab]

This isn't a mitigating factor, because Punisher knows word of mouth is unreliable, but still tries to kill people based on it. That's worse, not better.

Its not worse, its just all he reasonably has to work with without spending a year on every single target he goes after trying to confirm "for realisies" that this one is actually a bad guy. I could draw a number of rl comparisons here, but that would get me warnings from the mods, but bottom line is, he is doing the best he can to go after the right targets and his other options are to either let them run around being criminals forever, or put on a cape and give them a short vacation in prison before they go back to work killing everyone around them. I mean think about it, how many people has the joker killed since the first time batman caught him? How much death and destruction has lex luthor or the parasite or whoever in supermans rogue gallery caused since their first bit of combat? Frank Castle knows dang well and good that arresting mob bosses and criminals doesnt do anything but slow them down most of the time. If he wants to waste his time doing hard work and getting nowhere, he can buy 100 gallons of paint and keep working on the same wall of his apartment.

[Man on Fire]

I'm suprised nobody had still bought up Doctor Strange has proably by now killed hundreds of billions of people with Black Priests.

[theNater]

Its not worse, its just all he reasonably has to work with without spending a year on every single target he goes after trying to confirm "for realisies" that this one is actually a bad guy. I could draw a number of rl comparisons here, but that would get me warnings from the mods, but bottom line is, he is doing the best he can to go after the right targets and his other options are to either let them run around being criminals forever, or put on a cape and give them a short vacation in prison before they go back to work killing everyone around them. I mean think about it, how many people has the joker killed since the first time batman caught him? How much death and destruction has lex luthor or the parasite or whoever in supermans rogue gallery caused since their first bit of combat? Frank Castle knows dang well and good that arresting mob bosses and criminals doesnt do anything but slow them down most of the time. If he wants to waste his time doing hard work and getting nowhere, he can buy 100 gallons of paint and keep working on the same wall of his apartment.
There's two major flaws with this argument. The first is that the Punisher isn't getting anywhere. No matter how many criminals he kills, he's still facing a major crime boss every month, just like Batman. He's just filling more graves and causing more collateral damage in the process.

The second is that it leads to nasty "greater good" conclusions, like it being okay to blow up an elevator with the Joker and 10 innocent people in it, because killing those 10 innocents saves the hundreds of people the Joker will kill down the line. Some may think that sounds like a bargain, but it fails to recognize that the innocents who get killed have friends and family, who may take up villainy out of revenge, and it makes everybody feel less safe, leading to more people acting aggressively out of fear.

[Traab]

There's two major flaws with this argument. The first is that the Punisher isn't getting anywhere. No matter how many criminals he kills, he's still facing a major crime boss every month, just like Batman. He's just filling more graves and causing more collateral damage in the process.

The second is that it leads to nasty "greater good" conclusions, like it being okay to blow up an elevator with the Joker and 10 innocent people in it, because killing those 10 innocents saves the hundreds of people the Joker will kill down the line. Some may think that sounds like a bargain, but it fails to recognize that the innocents who get killed have friends and family, who may take up villainy out of revenge, and it makes everybody feel less safe, leading to more people acting aggressively out of fear.

The problem with a slippery slope argument is when people use it they dont slide down, they drop straight to the bottom of the hill and pull out worst case scenarios. Thats just as easy to do against the "good guys" "What if because a hero refuses to finish off his opponent fast enough, said bad guy then proceeds to explode a school, killing hundreds of innocent children?! Why, think what kind of madness that could spark! All for refusing to kill a dangerous criminal." Heh, I knew my comment would get responses along those lines, all i can say is, the rules change in a society where prison is meaningless, death is an unlocked door good and bad guys pass through on a regular basis, and the only people capable of enforcing the law are vigilantes because actual law enforcement is laughably overmatched. You talk about how castle faces new crime bosses every month? That may be true, but at least he isnt fighting the same guy every other week, letting him go so he can kill even more people later.

[theNater]

The problem with a slippery slope argument is when people use it they dont slide down, they drop straight to the bottom of the hill and pull out worst case scenarios.
I'm not slippery sloping you. Punisher's methods will result in him occasionally killing innocents. Defending his methods means saying it's okay to kill innocents as long as it stops the bad guys.

You talk about how castle faces new crime bosses every month? That may be true, but at least he isnt fighting the same guy every other week, letting him go so he can kill even more people later.
I fail to see how it's better, because the number of people being killed by villains is the same either way.

[Ravens_cry]

Grrr, I hate the Punisher. It's like someone looked at Rorschach (yes, I know he predates him) and thought 'Man, what if we made his body count even bigger and made him even more of a psychopath!'. The fictional vigilante generally has the advantage of living in a world where he's almost always right, where things like due process and innocence until guilty are things getting in the way of justice.
Really, they tend to be just as idealistic (for given ideals) as a world where Superman drops off the baddies at the police station and flies away with a song in his heart. They don't have to deal with the fact that while someone was convicted in the court of public opinion, that does not mean they actually did the crime or any crime at all, how many innocents would get caught in the crossfire, as bullets take more to stop than people imagine, where the evils are completely evil slime who have no reasons for what they do besides 'Hey, how evil can we be?'

[Man on Fire]

I fail to see how it's better, because the number of people being killed by villains is the same either way.I fail to see how it's better, because the number of people being killed by villains is the same either way.

Actually, when you think about it, there are constantly new villains introduced in comics, yes? So that means that while Spider-Man or Superman face both new and old foes, Castle is keeping his rogues gallery at the same level.
There was time when Frank fought Jigsaw. Then he fought Barracuda. Both died. Now he fights new guy.
There were times when Spidey fought guys like Doctor Octopus, Shocker, Vulture, Rhino, Electro and Green Goblin. These days he fights Venom, Carnage, Morlun, Massacre, Tombstone, Boomerang, the Beetle, Spot, Shriek, White Rabbit or Mr. Negative while also fighting Doctor Octopus, Shocker, Vulture, Rhino, Electro and Green Goblin in between.
Tell me who has more criminals with opportunity to kill the innocents?
Second, Castle's enemies are dead so it's pretty hard for them to get togther and plan some villainy as a team. Meanwhile Sinister Six is a thing.

[theNater]

Actually, when you think about it, there are constantly new villains introduced in comics, yes? So that means that while Spider-Man or Superman face both new and old foes, Castle is keeping his rogues gallery at the same level.
There was time when Frank fought Jigsaw. Then he fought Barracuda. Both died. Now he fights new guy.
There were times when Spidey fought guys like Doctor Octopus, Shocker, Vulture, Rhino, Electro and Green Goblin. These days he fights Venom, Carnage, Morlun, Massacre, Tombstone, Boomerang, the Beetle, Spot, Shriek, White Rabbit or Mr. Negative while also fighting Doctor Octopus, Shocker, Vulture, Rhino, Electro and Green Goblin in between.
Tell me who has more criminals with opportunity to kill the innocents?
It's the same, because Doctor Octopus doesn't have the opportunity to kill the innocents while he's in jail. You'll notice that when Doc Ock stages a jailbreak, Spidey (generally) isn't also fighting a new villain that month.

Second, Castle's enemies are dead so it's pretty hard for them to get togther and plan some villainy as a team. Meanwhile Sinister Six is a thing.
It's also pretty hard for dead villains to reform and become heroes. Sandman, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Riddler, Scarlet Witch...

[Metahuman1]

Tell that to the Russian and Jigsaw, who do have a nasty habit of not getting and staying dead despite franks best efforts.

[Traab]

It's the same, because Doctor Octopus doesn't have the opportunity to kill the innocents while he's in jail. You'll notice that when Doc Ock stages a jailbreak, Spidey (generally) isn't also fighting a new villain that month.

It's also pretty hard for dead villains to reform and become heroes. Sandman, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Riddler, Scarlet Witch...

Mercy to the guilty is treason to the innocent you dumbledoore groupie!

"Oh! But what if one day they get TIRED of murdering hundreds of people at a pop and decide to become good guys?"

"Im sure that will be of great comfort to the thousands of dead they left behind them being evil."

And yes, during the brief period of time he is in jail doc ock isnt killing people. The bad guys castle shoots in the face till they stop twitching also stop killing people, only they stop killing people for a much longer time. Like, forever.

[Cheesegear]

Is Punisher right or wrong?

Hooray. Exactly the topic that the Playground is allowed to discuss.

[theNater]

Mercy to the guilty is treason to the innocent you dumbledoore groupie!
And what of the innocents the Punisher personally kills? Let me guess, mercy to the innocent is also treason to the innocent.

And yes, during the brief period of time he is in jail doc ock isnt killing people. The bad guys castle shoots in the face till they stop twitching also stop killing people, only they stop killing people for a much longer time. Like, forever.
They're gone longer, but replaced faster. Why is it better for 5 different crime lords to kill 20 people each than for Doc Ock to kill 100 over the course of 5 appearances?

[Traab]

And what of the innocents the Punisher personally kills? Let me guess, mercy to the innocent is also treason to the innocent.

They're gone longer, but replaced faster. Why is it better for 5 different crime lords to kill 20 people each than for Doc Ock to kill 100 over the course of 5 appearances?

Because those heroes choose to let doc ock live to continue his reign of terror despite knowing what will happen every single time. They are deliberately taking actions they know will result in more innocent lives being lost. They just prefer to never actually acknowledge that fact. You know, until they run into another frank castle and try to justify themselves.

As for the innocents the punisher personally kills, yep, that sucks, accidents happen, of course, even spiderman has killed innocent people. Neither goes after them deliberately, neither wants innocents to die, but its an unfortunate fact of life that when you keep rolling the dice trying to save people, sometimes your actions will lead to them getting hurt or killed. Of course, sitting back and doing nothing leads to far more getting hurt or killed, so there is that little snag to consider.

[Man on Fire]

It's also pretty hard for dead villains to reform and become heroes. Sandman, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Riddler, Scarlet Witch...

Believe me, there are kinds of supervillains who could reform and there is Barracuda.
Besides, Frank can actually give some criminals benefit of doubt. There were instances where he told some low-rank crook to turn his life around, most of times it failed and he had to kill the guy anyway.

[Lizard Lord]

Except for the fact that the Illuminati screwed up on this little self appointed endeavor, which means there just as responsible as if they'd intended to send him there.

And then they blew it again by killing his wife after he'd FIXED there little screw up in order to try to impose there no longer necessary original idea on him because they've all got god complexes by now.



As I said before (or maybe strongly hinted at would be better wording) the Illuminati did not do that. It was Red King loyalists that blew up Sakaar and killed Hulk's wife. They did still send him to space and thus were still responsible for provoking Hulk's rampage.

Although I could have sworn he only wanted the Illuminati. I mean sure he was smashing up New York, but only because the Illuminati weren't surrendering themselves. Not only did he not turn on the rest of Attilan after beating Black Bolt, but he didn't continue to smash New York once the rest of the Illuminati were captured. (Well not until Sentry challenged him to a fight) Granted I'm not saying the Hulk was innocent in all this, but that is beside the point.

Er....actually no it isn't. He becomes one of the Illuminati after all during the whole incursion/time runs out thing. Again he may have decided not to pull the trigger at the last minute, but he was still an accomplice to it. Hulk, alongside Beast, left a hologram to mock Steve Rogers while they escaped justice for what they did.

[Metahuman1]

I could swear hulks wife died when the Illuminati sent a second ship to recover hulk and it freaking landed on her.

Beyond that, I didn't know or for that matter care about anything after that point because after One More Day happened I finally said "Screw it, I refuse to give them my money until they fix this crap.".

I'd like to say I'm looking forward to the reboot for that reason, but Quesada's not only employed, he got promoted, so, yeah, not too optimistic. Maybe they'll surprise me. (And I know there teasing it, and I don't care, because it's Quesada.)

[Lizard Lord]

Personally I don't think One More Day ruined Marvel as a whole. Spider-Man...arguably though I still read Spider-Man. That's more because of 90's nostalgia than anything.

I don't see it as me giving Quesada money for One More Day. The only way I would be giving Quesada money for One More Day would be if I bought One More Day or anything that directly references it. I see Spider-Verse as about as distant from One More Day as Spider-man could be without actually reversing it. If anything I am giving Quesada money despite One More Day, not because of it I assure you.

Of course if you see buying any Marvel comic as giving Quesada money than what about Marvel merchandise and movies? He is the Chief Creative Officer meaning all branding, movies, comics, and other merchandise included, is within his domain. Or do you not spend money on those either?

[Reverent-One]

As I said before (or maybe strongly hinted at would be better wording) the Illuminati did not do that. It was Red King loyalists that blew up Sakaar and killed Hulk's wife. They did still send him to space and thus were still responsible for provoking Hulk's rampage.

No, they're not, because it was his wife dying that provoked his rampage. That's exactly why Meik let it happen, because he wanted Hulk to get back in the destroying business again. Why would being sent to a planet where he fits in better and finds a wife provoke a rampage?

[theNater]

Because those heroes choose to let doc ock live to continue his reign of terror despite knowing what will happen every single time. They are deliberately taking actions they know will result in more innocent lives being lost. They just prefer to never actually acknowledge that fact. You know, until they run into another frank castle and try to justify themselves.
Punisher's killing isn't actually saving lives. Nothing any superhero does saves lives in the long run, because the basic nature of superhero stories is "villain is killing people, superhero stops villain". If the other superheroes know that redemption and containment are impossible, then Frank knows that for every villain he kills another is created. If you're going to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him believe that he's making a difference, you have to also give the other heroes the benefit of the doubt and let them believe prison can work.

Seriously, if Doc Ock is murdered then a writer comes up with a good Doc Ock story, he's either going to come back from the dead or be replaced by Count Cuttlefish. Killing him achieves nothing.

[ThePhantom]

Jawsaw died? I thought his thing was being about the only guy who survives the Punisher going after him.

[Killer Angel]

Is Punisher right or wrong?

Hooray. Exactly the topic that the Playground is allowed to discuss.

Well this threat is all about controversial characters... :smallwink:

[Brother Oni]

Believe me, there are kinds of supervillains who could reform and there is Barracuda.

Wait, Barracuda is not just in the Max imprint? :smalleek:


Punisher's killing isn't actually saving lives. Nothing any superhero does saves lives in the long run, because the basic nature of superhero stories is "villain is killing people, superhero stops villain". If the other superheroes know that redemption and containment are impossible, then Frank knows that for every villain he kills another is created.

It depends. In the Punisher Max continuity, there's a two page scene where Frank is getting some intel from a prostitute and he notices a young working girl of about 17. He gets her story and it turns out she's just a small town girl virtually straight off the bus who's falled in with a bad crowd before being recuited by a pimp. Frank disappears for 5 minutes then comes back with a couple hundred dollars, asks his contact to get the girl on a bus home and pass on a message to the new pimp to be more careful about who he recruits when he takes over.

There's also the Dirty Laundry short (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWpK0wsnitc) which is an excellent example of what the Punisher does.

[Man on Fire]

Wait, Barracuda is not just in the Max imprint? :smalleek:

I consider MAX part of regular continuity, at least before Jason Aaron, which clearly isn't.
But 'Cuda also showed up in this
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111022132648/marveldatabase/images/6/6d/Eminem_punisher.jpg



There's also the Dirty Laundry short (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWpK0wsnitc) which is an excellent example of what the Punisher does.

Man, I love this short. And the one they did for Venom.

[Traab]

Punisher's killing isn't actually saving lives. Nothing any superhero does saves lives in the long run, because the basic nature of superhero stories is "villain is killing people, superhero stops villain". If the other superheroes know that redemption and containment are impossible, then Frank knows that for every villain he kills another is created. If you're going to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him believe that he's making a difference, you have to also give the other heroes the benefit of the doubt and let them believe prison can work.

Seriously, if Doc Ock is murdered then a writer comes up with a good Doc Ock story, he's either going to come back from the dead or be replaced by Count Cuttlefish. Killing him achieves nothing.

The difference is, the Punisher isnt responsible for knowing that jimmy two tones jenkins will rise up from his pickpocket status to take over the wreckage punisher left behind. He cant see the future. Spiderman doesnt have to see the future to know that despite capturing doc ock 271 times, he always breaks out or is let out or whatever and comes back to continue his rampages.

The Punisher stops the criminals he goes after, the other heroes slow the criminals down a bit.

[HandofShadows]

The Punisher stops the criminals he goes after, the other heroes slow the criminals down a bit.

So basically you are suggesting that superhero's should take it upon themselves to decide who lives and who dies?

[hamishspence]

A superhero decides "who lives" whenever he's got multiple people to rescue and can only rescue a few of them.

Most superheroes don't actively judge and mete out punishment on their own initiative though.

[Traab]

So basically you are suggesting that superhero's should take it upon themselves to decide who lives and who dies?

Im just saying the punisher gets the job done. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

[Man on Fire]

To be fair it's not like punishment and forgiveness cannot coexist - one of the reason why Wonder Woman doesn't have many iconic rogues is that most of her villains she either redeemed or killed. She is first to offer you a second chance and forgiveness but if you won't take it you coudl as well buy a coffin.

[theNater]

The difference is, the Punisher isnt responsible for knowing that jimmy two tones jenkins will rise up from his pickpocket status to take over the wreckage punisher left behind. He cant see the future. Spiderman doesnt have to see the future to know that despite capturing doc ock 271 times, he always breaks out or is let out or whatever and comes back to continue his rampages.
Jimmy "Two Tones" Jenkins, or someone like him, has risen up from pickpocket status to take over the wreckage Punisher left behind just as many times as Doc Ock has gotten out of jail. Why is it that Spider-Man expected to learn from these patterns, but the Punisher is not?

Im just saying the punisher gets the job done.
If the job is stopping a criminal, then yes, the Punisher does that. If the job is stopping crime, then the Punisher is no more effective than any other superhero, as evidenced by the fact that there's a new criminal around for each new Punisher storyline.

On a meta-level, the actual job is participating in entertaining stories, in which case the Punisher and Spider-Man are equally essential, due to the different sorts of stories in which they fit.

[Traab]

Jimmy "Two Tones" Jenkins, or someone like him, has risen up from pickpocket status to take over the wreckage Punisher left behind just as many times as Doc Ock has gotten out of jail. Why is it that Spider-Man expected to learn from these patterns, but the Punisher is not?

If the job is stopping a criminal, then yes, the Punisher does that. If the job is stopping crime, then the Punisher is no more effective than any other superhero, as evidenced by the fact that there's a new criminal around for each new Punisher storyline.

On a meta-level, the actual job is participating in entertaining stories, in which case the Punisher and Spider-Man are equally essential, due to the different sorts of stories in which they fit.

Well, Unless you want the punisher to start slaughtering people who havent even done anything on the level of capitol crimes yet, he cant exactly go after mister pickpocket now can he? There really isnt anything the punisher can do to make his work more effective, spiderman however does have another option, one he ignores utterly.

With the punisher, admittedly I dont read his comics much, so im not entirely sure, but if he went after say, the cast of The Godfather, He would take out the boss, the underboss, possibly the consigliere, and the capos as well. The soldiers he probably wouldnt go after specifically, but there would likely be many that get gunned down on his kill mission to take out the capos and up. He isnt going to go after the associates because most of them are so small fry they havent done anything to merit an execution. He also isnt going to spend the next 5 years investigating them to make sure. If one of these no names is able to take over the family and go back to business as usual, he will gladly wipe them out again. But he wont kill people who havent done anything to deserve it yet. And before you get into the whole moral and ethical argument of "deserving it" I dont know, whatever line frank drew for himself.

[Man on Fire]

Superheroes stops criminals and other evildoers. The only superhero who tries to destroy crime and evil themselves is Spectre and i has something to do with the fact he is more overpowered than anyone. And even he does it as a punishment that will never end.

[Metahuman1]

Also, Punisher has and does kill people for minor petty crimes. Often, in fact. Hell, he was at one point gonna gun down the runaways, one of whom was an 11 year old girl at the time.

[theNater]

Well, Unless you want the punisher to start slaughtering people who havent even done anything on the level of capitol crimes yet, he cant exactly go after mister pickpocket now can he?
Okay, so we're in agreement that killing people doesn't actually stop the flow of criminals unless one goes to extremes.

There really isnt anything the punisher can do to make his work more effective, spiderman however does have another option, one he ignores utterly.
What option? Killing people? We just saw that doesn't work for the Punisher, unless he goes to extreme lengths like murdering pickpockets. Why do you think it will work better for Spider-Man? Or are you suggesting Spider-Man should start murdering pickpockets?


Superheroes stops criminals and other evildoers.
Which Spider-Man does, just as reliably as the Punisher. Stopping one criminal twice and two criminals once each are not meaningfully different in a world where there is one criminal to be stopped a month, no matter what.

[Man on Fire]

Also, Punisher has and does kill people for minor petty crimes. Often, in fact. Hell, he was at one point gonna gun down the runaways, one of whom was an 11 year old girl at the time.

To be fair, and I'm speaking here as Runaways fan, it was written by Joss Whedon who absolutely HATES Punisher.
And you can drop the "at time", with how Marvel timeline works I doubt they'll ever let Molly stop being 11, even if they allow rest of the team to grow up. On an off-topic note through, lately I have to agree with Nick Spencer and Tom Breevoort - what's the point in aging teen superheroes? You rarerly make sucessfull story from it (for exampel Marvel let their 90s teens grew up and only Richard Rider and Monet St. Croix were sucessful, while rest couldn't fit anywhere and two, Justice and Speedball, were even de-aged) and it only takes away huge part of their appeal, making them less likely to succeed.

[Metahuman1]

And yet it worked wonderfully for the Titans.

[Man on Fire]

And yet it worked wonderfully for the Titans.

No all of them. Raven and Beast Boy for example have been de-aged at least twice (after ressurection Raven went from adult to high-schooler and Beast Boy could date her without a problem and I'm pretty sure they're both teens in rebooted Universe). Tim Drake has been teenager since his creation, that's how long now, 3 decades? Back when it worked Titans were having HUUGE sales, they were DC's answer to X-Men and they could afford to age the characters. And speaking of X-men only few X-teens actually have been aged sucessfully. Kitty Pryde and M. New Mutants sit in limbo and rarerly show up and nobody had any idea for them until recently Hickman gave Sunspot and Cannoball big role in Avengers, rest of Generation X do nothing and Jubilee has been de-aged to being 17.
And then there is Spider-Man where people at Marvel made him ino colossal manchild by having him as an adult and yet giving him teenager's mentality. As Linakra said - if Marvel is so determined keeping him in high school, why isn't he there?

[Lizard Lord]

Jubilee has been de-aged to being 17.


She is a vampire with an adopted kid. Even if she will forever be physically 17 (which they now have an excuse for) she is certainly not mentally 17 anymore.

[Metahuman1]

I thought they devamped her when she was gonna be put back into the all women X-men team?

[Traab]

Okay, so we're in agreement that killing people doesn't actually stop the flow of criminals unless one goes to extremes.

What option? Killing people? We just saw that doesn't work for the Punisher, unless he goes to extreme lengths like murdering pickpockets. Why do you think it will work better for Spider-Man? Or are you suggesting Spider-Man should start murdering pickpockets?


Which Spider-Man does, just as reliably as the Punisher. Stopping one criminal twice and two criminals once each are not meaningfully different in a world where there is one criminal to be stopped a month, no matter what.

Look, bottom line, my point is simple, punisher does a damn fine job, as fine as any other superhero out there for taking down criminals at least. You might not like his methods, but im fairly sure he wouldnt give a bucket of lama droppings if he heard that. While spiderman fights the same old bad guys, frank castle takes out his and the lesser bad guys take over. Honestly, you could make a case for that meaning the capability of the bad guys dropping over time. After all, if they were good enough to take over before the vacuum, they would have already. So freddy down in the mailroom finds himself promoted to ceo. I bet he sucks at his job. Certainly he is worse than big daddy warbucks.

[theNater]

Honestly, you could make a case for that meaning the capability of the bad guys dropping over time.
Making that case means making the case that the Punisher is eventually killing people too incompetent to get out of jail; is that a case you want to make? 'Cause if not, we could just drop the whole thing.

[Starwulf]

Making that case means making the case that the Punisher is eventually killing people too incompetent to get out of jail; is that a case you want to make? 'Cause if not, we could just drop the whole thing.

If they are willing to step up and fill the shoes of the guys that Punisher offed, they deserve the same punishment, because they are committing the same crimes.

[Cheesegear]

No all of them. Raven and Beast Boy for example have been de-aged at least twice (after ressurection Raven went from adult to high-schooler and Beast Boy could date her without a problem and I'm pretty sure they're both teens in rebooted Universe).

The current Grayson title makes me want to punch someone in the head. But, before New 52, Grayson and Barbara Gordon had aged fantastically into adults, and Grayson's relationship with Damien Wayne was really, really good. But what was Grant Morrison's writing, and he's always on point. Then New 52 happened and...Ugh.

[theNater]

If they are willing to step up and fill the shoes of the guys that Punisher offed, they deserve the same punishment, because they are committing the same crimes.
The entire defense of killing villains, to date, has been based on prevention of future crimes, not on death being an appropriate punishment for their past crimes. And I'm pretty sure the discussion of which, if any, crimes for which death is an appropriate punishment is going to run right into discussions of real-world politics and morality, so I am not going to participate in such discussion.

[Man on Fire]

The current Grayson title makes me want to punch someone in the head. But, before New 52, Grayson and Barbara Gordon had aged fantastically into adults, and Grayson's relationship with Damien Wayne was really, really good. But what was Grant Morrison's writing, and he's always on point. Then New 52 happened and...Ugh.

Whait, did the de-aged Di*ck Grayson? I thought he is at least in his 20s if Midnighter could make comments about his butt.


She is a vampire with an adopted kid. Even if she will forever be physically 17 (which they now have an excuse for) she is certainly not mentally 17 anymore.

Speedball is now one of most hated people in, suffering from severe case of PTSD. Didn't stop him from being sixteen both mentally and physically and being written as such.


I thought they devamped her when she was gonna be put back into the all women X-men team?

No, they let her be a vampire but had her adopt a baby. But then I have no idea what went through, I suspect somebody might have devamped her as well.

[Cheesegear]

Whait, did the de-aged Di*ck Grayson? I thought he is at least in his 20s if Midnighter could make comments about his butt.

No, 'The D' is still an adult, but at the conclusion of Forever Evil, The D stops being Nightwing and becomes an agent of Spyral. Now, instead of the Nightwing title, he's running under Grayson (Agent of Spyral), and I hate it, now The D is less like DC's answer to Spider-Man, and more like DC's answer to Black Widow, which, frankly, was not a move that needed to be made.

EDIT: That said, the current Grayson book makes the fanfics with The D and Black Widow make even more sense. Not that I read fanfics.

[Avilan the Grey]

Again I feel this page is (http://hasdcdonesomethingstupidtoday.com/) relevant.

[Starwulf]

The entire defense of killing villains, to date, has been based on prevention of future crimes, not on death being an appropriate punishment for their past crimes. And I'm pretty sure the discussion of which, if any, crimes for which death is an appropriate punishment is going to run right into discussions of real-world politics and morality, so I am not going to participate in such discussion.

Actually, I was arguing since I posted that I felt the Punisher killing the criminals for the crimes they committed was a good thing. I was never arguing that it was about prevention, that was other posters ^^

[Man on Fire]

now The D is less like DC's answer to Spider-Man, and more like DC's answer to Black Widow, which, frankly, was not a move that needed to be made.

I dunno, the core aspect of what makes him work as DC's answer t Spider-Man is still there:
http://scontent-b.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/s306x306/e15/10903776_407410172751552_1131463845_n.jpg

[Cheesegear]

Again I feel this page is (http://hasdcdonesomethingstupidtoday.com/) relevant.

Not especially. Having read Forever Evil (it's a trade now, so people can buy it, so I wont spoil it), but events transpire so that The D can no longer be Nightwing anymore - I'd make a reference to a Marvel arc where something similar happens to a certain other character, but then you could easily guess it, and I'm trying to stay away from spoilers. Point is, The D can't be Nightwing. Fair enough. I just didn't think The D would join up with Spyral - that's not really in his wheelhouse. But I know something is going to come out of it because writers don't usually start major character changes without end-games in mind. So while I, personally, don't like it, I don't think it's particularly stupid.


I dunno, the core aspect of what makes him work as DC's answer t Spider-Man is still there

I don't know, that panel makes it Seeley's answer to Hal Jordan. :smalltongue:

[HandofShadows]

Im just saying the punisher gets the job done. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

That's it. He does NOT get the job done. He just kills people and someone else just slides into the vacated opening and nothing ever really changes.

[-D-]

What about Marvelman? He is technically a super hero, and he does toss bus full of innocents to stop a bad guy.

[Lizard Lord]

I thought they devamped her when she was gonna be put back into the all women X-men team?

She was still a vampire in the most recent comic I read.


Speedball is now one of most hated people in, suffering from severe case of PTSD. Didn't stop him from being sixteen both mentally and physically and being written as such.

You aren't legally allowed to adopt unless you are at least 18, nor would she be allowed if it was felt that she was not mature enough. I could look it up, but I am feeling pretty confident on the accuracy of that.

[Man on Fire]

You aren't legally allowed to adopt unless you are at least 18, nor would she be allowed if it was felt that she was not mature enough. I could look it up, but I am feeling pretty confident on the accuracy of that.

She shouldn't be allowed to adopt a baby from different country that she stolen from the hospital anyway? Or maybe the writer just didn't do the research?
And you're kinda missing my point. My point is that Speedball also shouldn't be mentally teenager anymore, even if they de-aged him. Yet here he is, acting even younger than he is supposed to be, even with all the mental scars. If they want Jubilee be written as teenager, she will be written as teenager, be her a vampire, single mother or CEO of Umbrella.

[theNater]

Actually, I was arguing since I posted that I felt the Punisher killing the criminals for the crimes they committed was a good thing. I was never arguing that it was about prevention, that was other posters ^^
Indeed, I had forgotten your posts, what with this other discussion going on so long. Sorry 'bout that.

However, didn't you decide that Punisher's occasional targeting of the innocent out of misinformation put him in the wrong regardless?

[Starwulf]

Indeed, I had forgotten your posts, what with this other discussion going on so long. Sorry 'bout that.

However, didn't you decide that Punisher's occasional targeting of the innocent out of misinformation put him in the wrong regardless?

Yeah, which means he is an evil superhero after-all, but that doesn't mean I disagree with his approach towards REAL criminals.(Please keep in mind though, that my view on his actions are noticeably different then what I would consider to be appropriate in the real world. Comic book worlds are vastly different then RL).

[Lizard Lord]

She shouldn't be allowed to adopt a baby from different country that she stolen from the hospital anyway? Or maybe the writer just didn't do the research?
And you're kinda missing my point. My point is that Speedball also shouldn't be mentally teenager anymore, even if they de-aged him. Yet here he is, acting even younger than he is supposed to be, even with all the mental scars. If they want Jubilee be written as teenager, she will be written as teenager, be her a vampire, single mother or CEO of Umbrella.

I just kinda figured it was implied that teenagers are just as susceptible to trauma as anyone else. Maybe even more so. So I don't really see what Speedball's situation has to do with it. There is also precedent for people with trauma putting up a front for it, which I understand that's what Speedball does now.


Anyways, in the current all-female X-Men series, I just don't see Jubilee as a teenager. Maybe that is just me though.

[HandofShadows]

I have done a little research on PTSD and it seems that kids and teenagers are more susceptible.

[Aotrs Commander]

No, they let her be a vampire but had her adopt a baby. But then I have no idea what went through, I suspect somebody might have devamped her as well.

Unless there have been development in the last three issues that I haven't gotten around to reading yet, Jubes is still a vampire (to my great disgust. If it were ANY other character than Jubilee, I would have given up long ago...)

[Zmeoaice]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/Powerpuff_girls_characters.jpg

yes, these sweet little girls are objectively the most morally repugnant "heroes" in history. In the majority of their appearances they cause massive and unnessary destruction to the city and brutally beat up criminals who they could simply reprimand with their super strength.

List of other crimes (not exhaustive):



Buttercup knocking the teeth out of non-active criminals to get money from the tooth fairy
Bubbles robbing the Townsville treasury because a guy on the TV told her to give him money (he didn't even tell her to steal it)
Bubbles viciously beat up a man for accidentally missing a garbage can when throwing paper, and a dog for holding up traffic
Blossom stealing the Pro Excellence 2000 Golf Club (and later trying to frame Mojo)
Brutally beating up Big Billy after he saved them and admitted what he did was wrong
Brutally beating up Rainbow the Clown after he reformed
Letting a female supervillain commit crimes because the's a shortage of female villains
Breaking Mojo Jojo from prison multiple times and letting him wreck havoc in the city so they could stop him and be rewarded Candy
Letting the Professor rob stores during his sleepwalking to get them toys
Fighting each other to find a key to take over the world and establishing a dystopian totalitarian state (Buttercup) or Matriarchy (Blossom) or give free puppies for everyone (Bubbles... okay this one isn't bad).

[Metahuman1]

Do they count though? There kinda more a parody of super hero's.

[Zmeoaice]

List of other crimes (not exhaustive):

Buttercup knocking the teeth out of non-active criminals to get money from the tooth fairy
Bubbles robbing the Townsville treasury because a guy on the TV told her to give him money (he didn't even tell her to steal it)
Bubbles viciously beat up a man for accidentally missing a garbage can when throwing paper, and a dog for holding up traffic
Blossom stealing the Pro Excellence 2000 Golf Club (and later trying to frame Mojo)
Brutally beating up Big Billy after he saved them and admitted what he did was wrong
Brutally beating up Rainbow the Clown after he reformed
Letting a female supervillain commit crimes because the's a shortage of female villains
Breaking Mojo Jojo from prison multiple times and letting him wreck havoc in the city so they could stop him and be rewarded Candy
Letting the Professor rob stores during his sleepwalking to get them toys
Fighting each other to find a key to take over the world and establishing a dystopian totalitarian state (Buttercup) or Matriarchy (Blossom) or give free puppies for everyone (Bubbles... okay this one isn't bad).



Do they count though? There kinda more a parody of super hero's.

That still makes them superheroes so it does count. Plus almost every other superhero is based off of Superman, Batman, F4, and/or Spider-Man anyways.

[Lizard Lord]

In that case, do the Watchmen count? :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

TV Tropes lists Watchmen as a superhero story.

[Metahuman1]

So, yes. Ozy and Rorschach are hero's for our purposes. I think they trump the powerpuff girls in this somehow.

[Zmeoaice]

So, yes. Ozy and Rorschach are hero's for our purposes. I think they trump the powerpuff girls in this somehow.

In terms of their brutality, the Powerpuff Girls probably are equally matched to Rorschach if not worse, Rorschach just kills his victims after going through with them.

I guess it depends on how evil is defined. The Powerpuff Girls have violated their personal code for selfishness multiple times. Ozy truly believed he was helping the world when he pulled his stunt. So his actions may have been worse than what the PPGs have done, but he didn't do it out of malice or callousness. Plus there's debate on whether he counts as a superhero or not.

Although the superhero with the highest body could would probably be Marvel Girl in the Dark Phoenix Saga (2 billion), although it could be argued that she wasn't in full control of herself.


Both Namor and Doctor Strange have now body counts in dozens of bilions.

Well... I haven't read those comics, so they don't count! :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

[Man on Fire]

Although the superhero with the highest body could would probably be Marvel Girl in the Dark Phoenix Saga (2 billion), although it could be argued that she wasn't in full control of herself

Both Namor and Doctor Strange have now body counts in dozens of bilions.

[Metahuman1]

In terms of their brutality, the Powerpuff Girls probably are equally matched to Rorschach if not worse, Rorschach just kills his victims after going through with them.

I guess it depends on how evil is defined. The Powerpuff Girls have violated their personal code for selfishness multiple times. Ozy truly believed he was helping the world when he pulled his stunt. So his actions may have been worse than what the PPGs have done, but he didn't do it out of malice or callousness. Plus there's debate on whether he counts as a superhero or not.

Although the superhero with the highest body could would probably be Marvel Girl in the Dark Phoenix Saga (2 billion), although it could be argued that she wasn't in full control of herself.



Well... I haven't read those comics, so they don't count! :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

1: The Powerpuff girls are young enough to be in kindergarden. Watchmen's cast are middle aged or older adults. BIG difference in cognitive processes for things like Impulse Control or weighting consequences of actions.

2: PP are form a COMEDY universe, were the overwhelming majority of this stuff doesn't have lasting negative consequences and they know it. Watchmen, not the case.

3: Marvel Girl was Canonically not in her right mind at the time. Like "I Just had 100 Gallons of Acid and Angel Dust pumped into my system against my will." levels of not in her right mind if not worse. I give her a pass on that front.

[Starwulf]

Both Namor and Doctor Strange have now body counts in dozens of bilions.

Out of curiosity, is Dr. Strange still one of the most powerful people in the universe? I seem to recall back when I read comics that he was like this wickedly powerful person matched only by the likes of Superman and stuff like Galactus and what not.

[Metahuman1]

Out of curiosity, is Dr. Strange still one of the most powerful people in the universe? I seem to recall back when I read comics that he was like this wickedly powerful person matched only by the likes of Superman and stuff like Galactus and what not.

Dr. Strange could actually take superman and with little effort assuming the writer hasn't taken extra doses of stupid the day he does the script.


And yes, he's in Thor and Silver Surfer and Hulks weight class last I checked.

[Man on Fire]

Out of curiosity, is Dr. Strange still one of the most powerful people in the universe? I seem to recall back when I read comics that he was like this wickedly powerful person matched only by the likes of Superman and stuff like Galactus and what not.

Yes and no. On the one hand he proved time and time he can take incredibly powerful villains and once even punched Galactus, so compared to other supers he is insanely powerful. However in scale of Marvel Magic he is actually pretty weak and many of his opponents dominate over him and require to be outsmarted instead of taking head-on. And in recent years writers have bad habit of either nerfing him or repowering him through dark magic. So first he loses his power then sells his soul for more power then loses it when next writer comes along only to then be given new dark powerup....his fans came to utterly hate "Doctor Strange sells his soul" plots, that's how much they're overdone.
Also in later years he's been under strong worf effect - he jobs a lot to show how dangerous the threat is. Just like pretty much all magicians - it's jobbing, death or heel turn. Sadly that's what happens when you give comics to people raised on Conans, science-fiction and Star Wars where magic was nothing but evil to be defeated by action/science heroes.

[Traab]

Yes and no. On the one hand he proved time and time he can take incredibly powerful villains and once even punched Galactus, so compared to other supers he is insanely powerful. However in scale of Marvel Magic he is actually pretty weak and many of his opponents dominate over him and require to be outsmarted instead of taking head-on. And in recent years writers have bad habit of either nerfing him or repowering him through dark magic. So first he loses his power then sells his soul for more power then loses it when next writer comes along only to then be given new dark powerup....his fans came to utterly hate "Doctor Strange sells his soul" plots, that's how much they're overdone.
Also in later years he's been under strong worf effect - he jobs a lot to show how dangerous the threat is. Just like pretty much all magicians - it's jobbing, death or heel turn. Sadly that's what happens when you give comics to people raised on Conans, science-fiction and Star Wars where magic was nothing but evil to be defeated by action/science heroes.

NERRRRRDDDDDSSSS!!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU)

[Lizard Lord]

So, if Watchmen counts, then what about the Comedian? How many other super heroes attempted to commit rape? Not to mention he killed a women that was pregnant with his child.

I mean...sure he drew the line at Ozymandias' plan (unlike the others minus Rorschach), but that doesn't make up for everything else.

[Metahuman1]

He certainly get's mention as well.

[Lizard Lord]

He certainly get's mention as well.

I'd say he gets the prize. The Powerpuff Girls are little kids that are still learning right from wrong as well as impulse control. Rorschach, Ozymandias, and a lot of the other heroes mentioned in this thread at least believed that what they were doing was either right or necessary.

The Comedian has no such excuses.

[Bob of Mage]

I'd say he gets the prize. The Powerpuff Girls are little kids that are still learning right from wrong as well as impulse control. Rorschach, Ozymandias, and a lot of the other heroes mentioned in this thread at least believed that what they were doing was either right or necessary.

The Comedian has no such excuses.

But is the Comedian even a hero? I would put him as an antihero. As for the reasons for his actions, I would put it down to a very bad case of fatalism. In other words the case could even be made that he was mentally ill to some dergee (the things that he did and saw likely made things worse too). If that were the case, it would be hard to call him evil, and instead he would be more a tragic hero whose life was full of suffering.

[TeChameleon]

Mmph... not sure on that. From the snippets we get, the Comedian started off trying to do the right thing, but he had some pretty serious problems even before he went off the deep end. It likely doesn't help that he was based off the Charlton Comics' Peacemaker character, who, while the narrative treated him as a serious, careful, and brilliant mind, his actions were those of a murderous nutjob whose killer instincts happened to be directed against relatively socially-acceptable targets (or at least ones that were socially acceptable enough that most people would keep quiet in hopes that he wouldn't go after them next :smallamused:)

But yeh, I'd tend to agree that the Comedian should have been kept someplace quiet with padded walls and professional help, not loaded up with weaponry and sent out to murder everything :/

And while I'm not sure I'd count this (since it mostly didn't happen while he was heroing), while we're talking about heroes with bodycounts, I'm pretty sure that the Silver Surfer is at least indirectly responsible for multiple billions of deaths, since he was leading Galactus around for who knows how long to chow down on worlds.

[Lizard Lord]

But is the Comedian even a hero?

Identifying whether or not he counts for our purposes was the point of my previous questioning.





And while I'm not sure I'd count this (since it mostly didn't happen while he was heroing), while we're talking about heroes with bodycounts, I'm pretty sure that the Silver Surfer is at least indirectly responsible for multiple billions of deaths, since he was leading Galactus around for who knows how long to chow down on worlds.

Silver Surfer officially started out as a villain and was officially a villain when he did those things.


His super hero career was about trying to make up for that by saving as many worlds as he helped destroy. So, aside from debates about whether or not he can wipe out that much red in his ledger, as a hero Silver Surfer was a pretty decent guy as a result.

[gomipile]

Yes and no. On the one hand he proved time and time he can take incredibly powerful villains and once even punched Galactus, so compared to other supers he is insanely powerful. However in scale of Marvel Magic he is actually pretty weak and many of his opponents dominate over him and require to be outsmarted instead of taking head-on. And in recent years writers have bad habit of either nerfing him or repowering him through dark magic. So first he loses his power then sells his soul for more power then loses it when next writer comes along only to then be given new dark powerup....his fans came to utterly hate "Doctor Strange sells his soul" plots, that's how much they're overdone.
Also in later years he's been under strong worf effect - he jobs a lot to show how dangerous the threat is. Just like pretty much all magicians - it's jobbing, death or heel turn. Sadly that's what happens when you give comics to people raised on Conans, science-fiction and Star Wars where magic was nothing but evil to be defeated by action/science heroes.

I disagree with your use of the term "jobbing" unless the character Dr. Strange is actually throwing a large number of fights in-story to make in-story paychecks.

[Man on Fire]

I disagree with your use of the term "jobbing" unless the character Dr. Strange is actually throwing a large number of fights in-story to make in-story paychecks.

That would be better explanation than what we're actually getting 9 times out of 10.

[goto124]

Speaking of Powerpuff Girls, I only remember "Letting the Professor rob stores during his sleepwalking to get them toys", and I had the impression they didn't know how their 'father' managed to get those toys in the first place, or even cared about that when they had TOYS!

[Wardog]

So, if Watchmen counts, then what about the Comedian? How many other super heroes attempted to commit rape? Not to mention he killed a women that was pregnant with his child.

I mean...sure he drew the line at Ozymandias' plan (unlike the others minus Rorschach), but that doesn't make up for everything else.

I'm not sure I'd count Ozy and the Comedian as "evil superheros".

In universe they were/are treated as "superheroes", but to me, from a "real world" perspective, they don't really fit the literary / cultural concept.

Ozy is functionally a super villain (although this isn't revealed until near the end of the story), while the Comedian is basically a government thug that (outside the 'verse itself) is never portrayed as a hero. I'm not even sure he technically counts as an antihero, as that usually means a protagonist who lacks normal heroic qualities.


As characters, they fulfil a fundamentally different role to people like the Punisher, or the leaders of the Pro-Registration faction, etc, who are written as protagonists you are supposed to support/empathise with, but who do all sorts of horrible things.


(I'm not quite sure where Rorschach would come, given that he was intended to be a horrible person like the Comedian, but has a lot of fans agreeing with him and treating him as though he is a hero).

[Zmeoaice]

Speaking of Powerpuff Girls, I only remember "Letting the Professor rob stores during his sleepwalking to get them toys", and I had the impression they didn't know how their 'father' managed to get those toys in the first place, or even cared about that when they had TOYS!

The mayor told them that the toy store was robbed, and they connected the dots. The store was robbed several days in a row and they would confront the store owner and pat him on the back, shrug their shoulder and smirk. They definitely knew.

[Avilan the Grey]

But is the Comedian even a hero?

Definitely yes. Of course I am talking about the original meaning of the word...

[t209]

The mayor told them that the toy store was robbed, and they connected the dots. The store was robbed several days in a row and they would confront the store owner and pat him on the back, shrug their shoulder and smirk. They definitely knew.
To be fair,
The professor woke up when the toy rang, told the mayor, and probably staged a fake-shoot out to trick them.