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Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 11:56 AM
I just wanted to share a tiny little revelation I had some time ago about the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight class ability. See, as you may already realize, the ability lets you hide even under direct observation and with nothing to actually hide behind anytime you're within 10 feet of some kind of shadow, other than your own.

Now that seems powerful enough at first blush, but at first, it's easy enough to convince yourself that sometimes, the character wouldn't actually be within 10 feet of some kind of shadow ... until you start seriously thinking about the way the world around you actually looks.

As an exercise, try going for a walk in broad daylight, and while you're out walking, count the number of times you manage to get more than 10 feet away from any kind of shadow. Bear in mind that any tiny pebble on the ground casts a shadow (a miniscule shadow, but a shadow nonetheless). So will a twig. Any little cracks in the sidewalk have shadows in them, as do the regularly spaced gaps. All of the grass casts shadows. So might the curb, depending on the position of the sun. In fact, every raised feature around you casts a shadow! Even the tiny ones!

And, of course, even if you can't hide in your own shadow, that doesn't mean you can't hide in other people's shadows. :smallbiggrin:

It seems to me that per the rules as written, a Shadowdancer can hide virtually anywhere, under virtually any conditions. The only real exceptions I can come up with are the following:

- An absolutely flat, absolutely featureless (no grass, no pebbles, no bumps ... nothing) surface, in broad daylight (or light of some kind)

- A situation wherein light is coming in from all directions simultaneously, washing out any shadows

- High up in the sky (flying or levitating)

- The DM houserules new restrictions beyond the rules as written (shadows have to be at least X size, etc.)

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-03, 12:03 PM
1: Could a shadowdancer just drop something (like, a rock) and then hide in the rock's shadow?

3: Clouds cast shadows. :smallbiggrin:

BlueWizard
2007-04-03, 12:09 PM
Or the shadow person has so much power that they can access the shadow plane by opening portals in the universe's fabric of reality... or something. Ah, the days of only 4 classes...

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:11 PM
What about the requirements in a PrC that say something like:
"Spells

Ability arcane spells of 3rd level or higher."

You have the ability to cast those spells from a scroll at level one. You just need to make a spellcraft check.

Falconsflight
2007-04-03, 12:12 PM
Night with no moon and your in the wilderness with no lights. (i.e torches, sunrods, etc)

It's dark, it isn't shadow.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:13 PM
1: Could a shadowdancer just drop something (like, a rock) and then hide in the rock's shadow?

I thought of that, too. I'd love to see the look on the DM's face when you add "bag of rocks" to your equipment list ... :smallbiggrin:

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:14 PM
What about the shadow your weapon casts? Your cloak? Would that count as "your shadow"?

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:16 PM
Night with no moon and your in the wilderness with no lights. (i.e torches, sunrods, etc)

It's dark, it isn't shadow.

Actually, technically it is. All a shadow is is an area of darkness created by blockage of a light source (such as the sun). All night is is a huge area of darkness created by the entire planet blocking the sun's light from reaching that side of its surface.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:17 PM
What about the shadow your weapon casts? Your cloak? Would that count as "your shadow"?

I would think it probably does, since you'd have to be nude to only cast "your" shadow. Not that you really need to use those things since you'd be hard-pressed ever to not be within 10 feet of a shadow of some kind, short of flying.

Falconsflight
2007-04-03, 12:18 PM
Probably not, Most likely that's covered in "Your shadow"

What you can do is drop your backpack or some other larger item. If your fighting, you won't need it. and it's big enough just in case the DM say's no to hiding in a shadow cast by a rock.

You know how much fun sniping is when you have Hide in plain sight like that? Especially if your a rogue. When sniping, they lose they become flat-footed. (at least, that's how I remember it.)

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-03, 12:18 PM
Yeah, I think the ability is MEANT to allow you to hide anywhere. The restriction of being within 10' of a shadow is mostly to emphasize the fluff of how you're hiding, specifically to distinguish it from the Ranger ability of the same name, which requires "natural terrain." So you could really do it in the middle of a featureless salt flat...somehow...

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:20 PM
Yeah, I think the ability is MEANT to allow you to hide anywhere. The restriction of being within 10' of a shadow is mostly to emphasize the fluff of how you're hiding, specifically to distinguish it from the Ranger ability of the same name, which requires "natural terrain." So you could really do it in the middle of a featureless salt flat...somehow...

That's what your trusty bag of plain rocks is for.

Player: "I throw a rock on the ground and hide!"

DM: "... damnit."

prufock
2007-04-03, 12:20 PM
I think the houserule is reasonable and darn-near necessary. Particles of dust cast shadows! Who needs a bag of rocks? Just pluck a hair off your head!

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:22 PM
How shadowy is shadowy?
The atmosphere casts a small shadow, absorbing some light as it filters down to the surface.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:23 PM
I think the houserule is reasonable and darn-near necessary. Particles of dust cast shadows! Who needs a bag of rocks? Just pluck a hair off your head!

That's why it really depends on what the DM wants to have happen. If he/she is okay with you hiding basically anywhere (other than while flying or in certain special, really unusual cases where light is coming in from all directions), then you can. If not, there will be a houserule.

It's powerful, but at least it's not instant-win like the stuff wizards can do ... or anywhere near it. It can even be directly countered (by Spot/Listen, not to mention really nasty anti-stealth abilities like Blindsense and Blindsight).

Aquillion
2007-04-03, 12:26 PM
The problem is that it's not like there are any written rules for shadows, anywhere...

I think just "assume there's a shadow in 10 feet unless there's a reason why there wouldn't be" is the best policy, though. Don't forget that a simple general-area light spell can still shut a shadowdancer down; that's probably the real purpose behind the restriction here.

Indon
2007-04-03, 12:28 PM
Well, the thing with Hide is that someone may well still know (or at least, have an idea) where you are hiding without being able to see you.

Player: "I throw a rock on the ground and hide!"

DM: "The enemy wizard fireballs the rock."

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:29 PM
Well, the thing with Hide is that someone may well still know (or at least, have an idea) where you are hiding without being able to see you.

Player: "I throw a rock on the ground and hide!"

DM: "The enemy wizard fireballs the rock."

Fortunately, rogue types have good reflex saves and evasion.

I'm not sure how you would dodge a fireball and not get hurt while also hiding in the shadow cast by a rock. Magic, I guess.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:34 PM
The problem is that it's not like there are any written rules for shadows, anywhere...

I think just "assume there's a shadow in 10 feet unless there's a reason why there wouldn't be" is the best policy, though. Don't forget that a simple general-area light spell can still shut a shadowdancer down; that's probably the real purpose behind the restriction here.

Well, not really, since such a spell -- which only creates a single light source -- will only create other shadows. The only way to really get rid of shadow is to have light coming in from literally all directions, or else filling the entire area. A light spell in a cramped room might do the trick, assuming the light isn't blocked anywhere in the room (say, by a shelf, a bed, or whatever), but out in the open, it would just make new shadows.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:37 PM
There's a psionic power that let's you control ambient light levels. Wonder if that would do it....

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:37 PM
Fortunately, rogue types have good reflex saves and evasion.

I'm not sure how you would dodge a fireball and not get hurt while also hiding in the shadow cast by a rock. Magic, I guess.

I don't think you could. If the only shadow you have is that rock, and someone fireballs the rock, (I would say that) you're going to have to evade away from the rock, which will lead to you revealing yourself again.

But then, if there's an enemy wizard around, why not use his/her shadow instead? :smallbiggrin:

Falconsflight
2007-04-03, 12:40 PM
becuase if a wizard casts firball at you, He is so not within 10 feet. (considering the area of a fireball is 20.)

Personally, if I was Dm, I would just put a -X to your hide check based on what your trying to hide behind. It wouldn't be detrimental, but it would stop you from saying "I pull out a hair and hide behind it." I don't really know what X would be, but I would figure it out.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:46 PM
becuase if a wizard casts firball at you, He is so not within 10 feet. (considering the area of a fireball is 20.)

I meant "instead of" the rock. You have move actions; you should use them! Unless the wizard was waaay far away, I'd go for hiding in his/her shadow, not behind a rock I tossed on the ground. But I guess if I'm starting on a flat, featureless salt flat in broad daylight with only a rock to use for hiding against a wizard who's really far away but close enough to see me, it will get tricky. :smalltongue:

Latronis
2007-04-03, 12:49 PM
Actually, technically it is. All a shadow is is an area of darkness created by blockage of a light source (such as the sun). All night is is a huge area of darkness created by the entire planet blocking the sun's light from reaching that side of its surface.

Shadow can also specifically refer to an image cast on a surface by the blockage of light. In which case you'd need to be within 10 ft of a surface above the dark side of the planet.

So it depends on the definition of shadow.

kellandros
2007-04-03, 01:37 PM
Can two shadowdancers hide in each other's shadows?

Latronis
2007-04-03, 01:41 PM
aye

what the hell is with this post limit? cant even say a simple yes

Mewtarthio
2007-04-03, 02:47 PM
I'm not sure how you would dodge a fireball and not get hurt while also hiding in the shadow cast by a rock. Magic, I guess.

We're talking about a guy hiding in the shadow cast by a rock he can hold in one hand. His ability to dodge incoming Fireballs without revealing himself is trivial compared to that (particularly since it's already been confirmed that he can dodge an explosion while tied to an anchor within a 10x10x10 ft room).

blacksabre
2007-04-03, 02:50 PM
My House rule:
To allow the hide anywhere ability, the total area of the shadow cast must equal 36 square inches (6in X 6in) per 100 lbs total weight (including Equip)of the Shadow Dancer.
The shadow must have a defined edge.

To clarify, to keep players honest and making extremely small and light characters but with warped abilities..I use the following ....Note I make exceptions of course for some circumastances..(ie divine abilities, racials etc..)
I equate characters Weight with Constituion ansd STR scores..Height is irrelevent
Base human weight =Male 180LB / Female 110
Base Dwarf weight =Male 150LB / Female 70
Base halfling =Male 100LB / Female 60
Base elf weight =Male 140LB / Female 100
Use the ability multiplier of 5lbs for CON and 10Lbs for STR.
A Human male with Con of 14, Str of 16=180 BASE + 30LBs(STR+3) + 20LBS(CON+2)=Character weights:230lbs
A Human female with a Con of 7, and Str of 8=100 BASE -10 (CON-2) -10 (STR-1)= Character weight:90lbs

Back to the Shadowdancer..
Using the Human male shadowdancer above 230lbs, plus 40 lbs (armor,weapon Equip) =270lbs
270/100=2.7*36= 97 Square inches req'd to hide
A shadowdancer can travel lighter to make it easier,and obviously smaller races can hide easier as well
Example
Halfling Con 12, Str 16=base 100 +5 (Con +1), +30 (STR+3)=135
No equip..135/100=1.35*36=49 Sq inches req'd
The halfling requires a 3 inch sign post to cast a shadow only 16 inches long to hide
The Human requires the shadow be almost 3 feet.. or the object casting the shadow be larger..

A shadowdancer at high noon should have a problem finding a places to hide standing in the middle of the street

redwood
2007-04-03, 03:31 PM
A shadowdancer at high noon should have a problem finding a places to hide standing in the middle of the street


However there's likely shadows cast by the eves of buildings alongside the street. If the street is 20 feet wide with roofed buildings on either side, your shadowdancer can, in fact, hide in the middle of the street at high noon.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-03, 03:39 PM
Well, not really, since such a spell -- which only creates a single light source -- will only create other shadows. The only way to really get rid of shadow is to have light coming in from literally all directions, or else filling the entire area. A light spell in a cramped room might do the trick, assuming the light isn't blocked anywhere in the room (say, by a shelf, a bed, or whatever), but out in the open, it would just make new shadows.

Four light spells, one in each corner of the room, two at low heights and two at high. No shadows.

martyboy74
2007-04-03, 03:41 PM
Hide in the shadow of the person who's looking for you.


Four light spells, one in each corner of the room, two at low heights and two at high. No shadows.

What if the room's a hexagon?

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 03:41 PM
- A situation wherein light is coming in from all directions simultaneously, washing out any shadows
So many times when this would apply...

Fax Celestis
2007-04-03, 04:08 PM
What if the room's a hexagon?

Doesn't matter. Four bright light sources (such as a light spell, but not a torch) equidistent from each other surrounding the target should get rid of pretty much any shadow.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 04:14 PM
We're talking about a guy hiding in the shadow cast by a rock he can hold in one hand. His ability to dodge incoming Fireballs without revealing himself is trivial compared to that (particularly since it's already been confirmed that he can dodge an explosion while tied to an anchor within a 10x10x10 ft room).

Unless the anchor weighs more than his light load. But yeah, I know, evasion doesn't make the most sense.

CharPixie
2007-04-03, 05:42 PM
Of course, if we are being TRULY inane, a dancer could hide in the shadow of a torch on the OTHER side of the planet. She's still in the shadow of the torch even if she's lit by seven other light sources.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-03, 05:44 PM
Of course, if we are being TRULY inane, a dancer could hide in the shadow of a torch on the OTHER side of the planet. She's still in the shadow of the torch even if she's lit by seven other light sources.

Shadow's gotta be within 10'.

The_Snark
2007-04-03, 05:57 PM
Shadow's gotta be within 10'.

Arguably, you're actually in the shadow, because the planet is blocking out all the light cast by the torch. No matter that you wouldn't be able to see the light from the torch even if the planet were to suddenly vanish. Silly, but still arguable.

Apparently, the shadowdancer is much improved by ranks in Knowledge (philosophy).

I'd say that within an area of magical light there aren't shadows. It's illuminating the area; unless there's a sizable object, meaning one taking up at least a 5-ft square, to block the effect, there will be no shadows within the area. Basically, unless it would grant cover from an area effect, I'd say no shadows.

Raum
2007-04-03, 07:17 PM
Apparently, the shadowdancer is much improved by ranks in Knowledge (philosophy). Aren't all classes? :)


I'd say that within an area of magical light there aren't shadows. It's illuminating the area; unless there's a sizable object, meaning one taking up at least a 5-ft square, to block the effect, there will be no shadows within the area. Basically, unless it would grant cover from an area effect, I'd say no shadows.I'd agree with you if the light / daylight spell was an area spell. But it's a targeted spell...and it specifically states "...the object sheds light..."

Might be an interesting change to make...you could shape it with metamagic feats then...

dungeon_munky
2007-04-03, 07:53 PM
I don't think you could. If the only shadow you have is that rock, and someone fireballs the rock, (I would say that) you're going to have to evade away from the rock, which will lead to you revealing yourself again.



As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.


You don't actually have to be in the shadow to be hiding, just 10 feet or closer. Unless evading fireballs moves you out of this range, you aren't going to reveal yourself.

Course, I could be missing a "You cant make reflex saves while hiding" rule.

Indon
2007-04-03, 07:58 PM
You don't actually have to be in the shadow to be hiding, just 10 feet or closer. Unless evading fireballs moves you out of this range, you aren't going to reveal yourself.

Course, I could be missing a "You cant make reflex saves while hiding" rule.

Well, it's one of those "How can you evade a fireball without moving!" things, when Fireball has a 20-foot radius. So if you fireball the only shadow availible...

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 08:33 PM
Well, it's one of those "How can you evade a fireball without moving!" things, when Fireball has a 20-foot radius. So if you fireball the only shadow availible...
How can you evade a fireball that detonates in a 5'x5'x10' room? Every square millimeter is filled, yet anyone with Evasion or greater can take no damage from said fireball.

Why? Magic.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-03, 08:39 PM
Unless the anchor weighs more than his light load. But yeah, I know, evasion doesn't make the most sense.

You're assuming he's carrying the anchor or strapped to it tightly enough to be rendered helpless. I don't recall any restriction that states that, say, being tied to a pole with a length of chain nullifies Evasion.

But how to make Evasion realistic? I suppose you could houserule that an Evasion character can, on a successful Reflex save, take an Immediate action to move out of the targetted area (or make a Jump check to Jump over it), expending some of its move from the next turn, but why complicate matters?

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 10:14 PM
Four light spells, one in each corner of the room, two at low heights and two at high. No shadows.

That's going to take some work! I guess you could do it, but you'd really need the shadowdancer to sort of stand around and do nothing while you went about it.

Unless you're casting Time Stop first because you really really want to find her ... :smallbiggrin:

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 10:17 PM
Arguably, you're actually in the shadow, because the planet is blocking out all the light cast by the torch. No matter that you wouldn't be able to see the light from the torch even if the planet were to suddenly vanish. Silly, but still arguable.

Apparently, the shadowdancer is much improved by ranks in Knowledge (philosophy).

I just had this image of a shadowdancer calmly reasoning out what you just said, and then, at the end of the monologue, suddenly successfully vanishing because she'd made her case. That was worth a giggle. :smalltongue:

Caledonian
2007-04-03, 10:23 PM
Well, not really, since such a spell -- which only creates a single light source -- will only create other shadows.

Daylight doesn't create shadows. Its light is ambient and omnidirectional.

No, wait - that's not how it works anymore. When was it changed?

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 10:44 PM
Daylight doesn't create shadows. Its light is ambient and omnidirectional.

No, wait - that's not how it works anymore. When was it changed?

In any case, all you do when you cast some kind of light spell (unless you're in a small enclosed area, like a room) is shift where the shadows are located. Light, after all, still ultimately throws shadow. At most, you might force the shadowdancer to run out of the area of the spell to find shadows and hide again, except ... oh, wait, no. She can still hide using yours. You know, the shadow your own light spell is creating using your body?

Raum
2007-04-03, 10:46 PM
Note the target and description for both Light and Daylight in 3.5...they shed light from a specific source.

Galdor Miriel
2007-04-04, 07:54 AM
For anyone interested in how this would really work you should read the novel, "Jack of Shadows" by Roger Zelazny, the great american scifi/fantasy author of Amber fame. The protaganist, Jack, lives on a world that does not rotate wrt the sun, so there is a night side and a day side. He has the ability to hide in shadows like the shadowdancer PrC, but which for him only works in the region bewteen. The idea is that total darkness has no shading, hence no shadows, total light is so bright even the shadows are not that dim so he cannot hide in them.

Its a cool book but not completely relevant, because its just not D&D.

Latronis
2007-04-04, 09:48 AM
Arguably, you're actually in the shadow, because the planet is blocking out all the light cast by the torch. No matter that you wouldn't be able to see the light from the torch even if the planet were to suddenly vanish. Silly, but still arguable.

Apparently, the shadowdancer is much improved by ranks in Knowledge (philosophy).

Again it depends how shadow is defined, and ive never seen it defined in rules. Common usage of the word specifically refers to the reflected image of an object obscuring the light. Hence Your hand casts a shadow on the ground, but the lack of light underneath your hand is not shadow.

Wooter
2007-04-04, 11:22 AM
Couldn't your Shadowdancer just carry a parasol?

Everyman
2007-04-04, 12:26 PM
See, I like to operate a system or mechanic like that based on how I feel it was meant to be ran. In the case of shadowdancers, I feel WotC intended there to be a bit more than a pebble's shadow to hide in. As a rule in my campaigns, if you can't find a shadow at least half your size, you can't hide in it. At high noon, a shadowdancer is pretty limited in his hiding spaces.

Curmudgeon
2007-04-06, 05:18 AM
How can you evade a fireball that detonates in a 5'x5'x10' room? Every square millimeter is filled, yet anyone with Evasion or greater can take no damage from said fireball. Actually, Rigeld2, the part I bolded is your interpretation. Fireball just says that it affects things in a 20' radius spread, not that it has even and total coverage of that volume. "Saving Throw: None" is what I take to mean total coverage.

Rigeld2
2007-04-06, 07:24 AM
Actually, Rigeld2, the part I bolded is your interpretation. Fireball just says that it affects things in a 20' radius spread, not that it has even and total coverage of that volume. "Saving Throw: None" is what I take to mean total coverage.
From Fireball:

Area (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area): 20-ft.-radius spread
Defining spread:


A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalCover) from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.
A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
It has the central target point. It spreads out from there, turning corners. It fills the entire area.

Lolzords
2007-04-06, 10:47 AM
It's dark, it isn't shadow.

It could be considered as shadow. The earth is in it's own shadow because the sun is on the other side of it, so the sun shines light onto the earth, which from the other side, is blocked by the earth.

(I doubt that made sense)

Indon
2007-04-06, 10:52 AM
It has the central target point. It spreads out from there, turning corners. It fills the entire area.

Grenades have a spread, as well, but that doesn't mean you can't dodge shrapnel.

The point is, yes, it could be viewed as a perfectly spherical ball of fire, or, it could be viewed as an explosive blast with huge gouts of fire flying out from the origin; gouts that could be evaded, if you were to have some exceptional ability to do so.

Rigeld2
2007-04-06, 11:36 AM
Grenades have a spread, as well, but that doesn't mean you can't dodge shrapnel.
Good luck dodging a grenade in a 5x5x10 room.


The point is, yes, it could be viewed as a perfectly spherical ball of fire, or, it could be viewed as an explosive blast with huge gouts of fire flying out from the origin; gouts that could be evaded, if you were to have some exceptional ability to do so.
Grenades also dont go around corners. Fireballs do.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-06, 02:35 PM
You get a reflex save when you're asleep. Trying to make sense of reflex saves isn't going to work, and you'll be driven mad by the attempt.

Latronis
2007-04-06, 02:52 PM
can you choose to fail a reflex save while you're asleep?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-06, 03:03 PM
"Sleeping" is considered "Helpless," so no, you do not get a reflex save.

Latronis
2007-04-06, 03:07 PM
eh i couldnt be bothered loading up the srd to check.

It's a simple matter to rule that you actually need the room to make a reflex save to avoid damage.

As for the shadowdancer whats the actual fluff behind HiPS?

Indon
2007-04-06, 03:07 PM
Good luck dodging a grenade in a 5x5x10 room.

I'd need a natural 20; I have a negative dex mod and a poor will save.




Grenades also dont go around corners. Fireballs do.

Uh... a Wizard did it?

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-06, 03:12 PM
See, I like to operate a system or mechanic like that based on how I feel it was meant to be ran. In the case of shadowdancers, I feel WotC intended there to be a bit more than a pebble's shadow to hide in. As a rule in my campaigns, if you can't find a shadow at least half your size, you can't hide in it. At high noon, a shadowdancer is pretty limited in his hiding spaces.

Unfortunately, doing that makes certain races just better shadowdancers than others (halflings over humans, pixies over almost anyone) -- yes, I know halflings were already naturally better at hiding, but now they have a much wider selection of places to hide ... which they would never normally have.

Going further, while the poor, underpowered, non-spellcasting shadowdancers are now highly limited in their options, the arcane trickster with a one-level shadowdancer dip (and probably Practiced Spellcaster to get caster level back to character level) can use one of the spells in the polymorph line to become much, much smaller to gain a huge advantage while using Hide in Plain Sight.

And once again, the wizard wins. Especially with your houserule.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 03:21 PM
Unfortunately, doing that makes certain races just better shadowdancers than others (halflings over humans, pixies over almost anyone) -- yes, I know halflings were already naturally better at hiding, but now they have a much wider selection of places to hide ... which they would never normally have.

Going further, while the poor, underpowered, non-spellcasting shadowdancers are now highly limited in their options, the arcane trickster with a one-level shadowdancer dip (and probably Practiced Spellcaster to get caster level back to character level) can use one of the spells in the polymorph line to become much, much smaller to gain a huge advantage while using Hide in Plain Sight.

And once again, the wizard wins. Especially with your houserule.

You mean not all races were created equal?? :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

Indon
2007-04-06, 03:29 PM
Unfortunately, doing that makes certain races just better shadowdancers than others (halflings over humans, pixies over almost anyone) -- yes, I know halflings were already naturally better at hiding, but now they have a much wider selection of places to hide ... which they would never normally have.

Going further, while the poor, underpowered, non-spellcasting shadowdancers are now highly limited in their options, the arcane trickster with a one-level shadowdancer dip (and probably Practiced Spellcaster to get caster level back to character level) can use one of the spells in the polymorph line to become much, much smaller to gain a huge advantage while using Hide in Plain Sight.

And once again, the wizard wins. Especially with your houserule.

You know, small things _already_ get a positive modifier to hide based on their size. And it's kind of, well, obvious that something that's smaller, would be able to hide in smaller shadows.

No, this does not mean reality is broken.

Raum
2007-04-06, 03:31 PM
"Sleeping" is considered "Helpless," so no, you do not get a reflex save.You do get a Reflex save while sleeping. Your Dex is considered to be 0 giving you a -5 to the save, but you do get a save. The same applies if you're paralyzed, unconscious, or helpless for any other reasons.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-06, 03:37 PM
Grenades have a spread, as well, but that doesn't mean you can't dodge shrapnel.

The point is, yes, it could be viewed as a perfectly spherical ball of fire, or, it could be viewed as an explosive blast with huge gouts of fire flying out from the origin; gouts that could be evaded, if you were to have some exceptional ability to do so.

Nope; shrapnel from grenades would be considered a "burst." Shrapnel doesn't turn corners. The Reflex save against Fireball normally represents the character throwing his hands over his face or otherwise minimizing the damage.

Indon
2007-04-06, 03:41 PM
Nope; shrapnel from grenades would be considered a "burst." Shrapnel doesn't turn corners. The Reflex save against Fireball normally represents the character throwing his hands over his face or otherwise minimizing the damage.

So Evasion would represent going above and beyond that sort of measure, kind of like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0208.html) it seems to me...

Though, requiring a lead sheet to be able to use Evasion in all circumstances would be rather encumbering on both the rules, and the player-characters.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 03:48 PM
Nope; shrapnel from grenades would be considered a "burst." Shrapnel doesn't turn corners. The Reflex save against Fireball normally represents the character throwing his hands over his face or otherwise minimizing the damage.

Except fireball goes around corners. It fills an area with magic fire- not an explosion. Covering your face wouldn't really work, unless you could cover your face air tight. Even then, the fireball would damage your skin in places, and push through the barrier into your face.

Reflex saves don't make much sense.

Latronis
2007-04-06, 03:55 PM
reflex save vs fireball is more like diving out of the way and only getting hit by the very edges of the spread, hence half damage.

With evasion\improved evasion its evading it completely.

That's why it doesn't make sense that you can evade a fireball even in a tiny room.

Although HP is also an abstract system so a case could be made that covering your face does indeed do less damage because getting burnt in the face is worse then your arms. You can't just it fills an entire place completely either, because your mere presence blocks some of it, even if it swarms around you, otherwise fire is going completely through you. If there is a barrier protecting your face so that theres nothing between barrier and face then it goes around the corners of your arm, over the corner of your head and around the corners of the sides of your head.

You take half damage because you've protected the most vital part.

It's all abstract in the end

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-06, 03:58 PM
You know, small things _already_ get a positive modifier to hide based on their size.

Yes, I do know. In fact, I specifically addressed it ... in the text you quoted! I don't know how to react to someone who quoted my post without reading it.

So yes, small races get a positive modifier to hide based on their size and always did. What they don't get, never got, and were never supposed to get, was a larger selection of available places where they're allowed to attempt to use the Hide skill at all than larger races.


And it's kind of, well, obvious that something that's smaller, would be able to hide in smaller shadows.

Sure, if that's what the ability did. But it isn't, and it never was. Normal people hide in shadows -- that's actually a perfectly legitimate normal way to hide, even in the real world. You don't need a special class ability to do it.

Shadowdancers hide because of shadows. It's not a normal ability, it's not even an extraordinary ability; it is a supernatural ability (read the ability description). They don't even have to be in the shadow at all -- only within 10 feet of it!


No, this does not mean reality is broken.

Since when did reality have anything to do with D&D abilities, especially D&D supernatural abilities? Is D&D magic real now? :smallamused:

Interesting aside: one other place a shadowdancer can't use HIPS is in an antimagic field or a dead-magic zone. Since it is a supernatural ability, those situations will actually prevent its functioning ...

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 04:00 PM
reflex save vs fireball is more like diving out of the way and only getting hit by the very edges of the spread, hence half damage.

With evasion\improved evasion its evading it completely.

How do you do that without leaving the 5 foot square?

Mewtarthio
2007-04-06, 04:08 PM
Except fireball goes around corners. It fills an area with magic fire- not an explosion. Covering your face wouldn't really work, unless you could cover your face air tight. Even then, the fireball would damage your skin in places, and push through the barrier into your face.

Reflex saves don't make much sense.

Try this experiement: Find a good, sturdy tree. On a windy day, try standing behind the tree to block the wind. Now have somebody start firing paintballs indiscriminately in your general direction, and hide behind the tree to avoid them. That's the difference between a spread and a burst. Now try blocking the wind by ducking your head and covering yourself. That's how reflex saves work.

Latronis
2007-04-06, 04:09 PM
you jump 20 ft into the air obviously

>_<

or dive to the side roll forwards kick off a againest a wall and are back where you started in the time it took the fireball to fill a 20' sphere and contract.