"Mystic Theurge" in 5e

[JackPhoenix]

If I understand it correctly, with multiclassed Cleric1/Wizard19 (or vice versa), I have spell slots as level 20 caster, and can use them to prepare spells from either class. Preparing and casting spells says I can prepare spells of any level I have spell slot for. Does it means I need only 1 level dip to be able to prepare spells up to 9th level from both lists? I can do something like druid1/cleric1/wizard18 to be able to prepare almost every spell in the game...

It sounds...wrong, even If I use only one class worth of spell slots. Have I missed something preventing that?

[silveralen]

You prepare spells for each class as though you were a single classed version of it. So all cleric spells you'd know would be what a lvl 1 cleric could do. You could use higher level spell slots for those spells though.

[Tarrab]

If I understand it correctly, with multiclassed Cleric1/Wizard19 (or vice versa), I have spell slots as level 20 caster, and can use them to prepare spells from either class. Preparing and casting spells says I can prepare spells of any level I have spell slot for. Does it means I need only 1 level dip to be able to prepare spells up to 9th level from both lists? I can do something like druid1/cleric1/wizard18 to be able to prepare almost every spell in the game...

It sounds...wrong, even If I use only one class worth of spell slots. Have I missed something preventing that?

Cleric 10/ Wizard 10 and that good old feeling that the Mystic Theurge always had of being a piece of sh**. At least, while roleplaying, they... were always a piece of sh**...

Wonder why they made such and underwhelmed waste of time? And then my answer was: "hey, look what we did to 5th´s Ranger! Don´t you just NOT want to play it now?"

[JackPhoenix]

You prepare spells for each class as though you were a single classed version of it. So all cleric spells you'd know would be what a lvl 1 cleric could do. You could use higher level spell slots for those spells though.

Thanks...I've missed that somewhere. I guess my level 1 dip will be only for armor and weapon proficiences, then

[Rogue Shadows]

Thanks...I've missed that somewhere. I guess my level 1 dip will be only for armor and weapon proficiences, then

And guidance. +1d4 to any one ability check as an at-will ability? In an edition this starved for pluses? I'll take two.

[JackPhoenix]

Now I'm thinking... I'm not willing to lose access to wizard's 9's, but that still give me some flexibility with 3 levels. I'll be taking cleric dip (Death domain) on my necromancer wizard, I'll lose Signature Spell anyway and I have good enough stats rolled that I don't really need wizard level 19 for ASI...are level 2 cleric spells (+ always prepared Blidness/deafness and Ray of Enfeeblement from Death domain) worth losing Spell Mastery?

[Rogue Shadows]

Now I'm thinking... I'm not willing to lose access to wizard's 9's, but that still give me some flexibility with 3 levels. I'll be taking cleric dip (Death domain) on my necromancer wizard, I'll lose Signature Spell anyway and I have good enough stats rolled that I don't really need wizard level 19 for ASI...are level 2 cleric spells (+ always prepared Blidness/deafness and Ray of Enfeeblement from Death domain) worth losing Spell Mastery?

http://www.bumperstickerz.com/images/10000183-01-02-00-00_lg.png

[Kornaki]

Definitely a personal choice. I will note that Enhance Ability is a second level cleric spell, and that initiative checks are dexterity checks (confirm with DM, your mileage may vary).

[SharkForce]

spell mastery is pretty danged good. you can swap out as needed, which means that (for example) you can always have blindness/deafness prepared with that, and also have unlimited casts... and then the next day replace it with web, or hold person, or mirror image, etc.

while also giving you unlimited shield spells. or mage armour, if you're an abjurer. or a damage spell, if you're a necromancer.

generally speaking, spell mastery is *really* good, and in terms of optimization I would think long and hard before I gave it up.

[Gnaeus]

Remember that spell mastery is only an issue in high level games and theory builds. If you are playing 1-20, here's what happens.

Wizard 1.

Wizard 1/Cleric 1 is better than wizard 2 (more flexible casting)

Wizard 3 is better than Wizard 2/Cleric1 (2nd level wizard spells)

Wizard 3/Cleric 1 is better than wizard 4 (more flexible casting)

Wizard 5 is better than wizard 4/Cleric 1 (3rd level wizard spells)

Until the highest levels, unless there is some key feat you need, you will in general be a little better on even levels with multiclassing, and a little worse on odd levels. You are also one level behind for feats, but the cleric benefits are better than just cleric casting (Nature for example, adds armor, a proficiency, a druid cantrip). Also, remember that cleric, with its prepared spells from a larger list, is a little bit better for a fixed list caster like bard or sorcerer than another prepared caster like wizard. Also, chart above notwithstanding, if you know you are planning to wizard/cleric, remember that you will want to take the cleric at first level for shields and better weapons.

[SharkForce]

Remember that spell mastery is only an issue in high level games and theory builds. If you are playing 1-20, here's what happens.

Wizard 1.

Wizard 1/Cleric 1 is better than wizard 2 (more flexible casting)

Wizard 3 is better than Wizard 2/Cleric1 (2nd level wizard spells)

Wizard 3/Cleric 1 is better than wizard 4 (more flexible casting)

Wizard 5 is better than wizard 4/Cleric 1 (3rd level wizard spells)

Until the highest levels, unless there is some key feat you need, you will in general be a little better on even levels with multiclassing, and a little worse on odd levels. You are also one level behind for feats, but the cleric benefits are better than just cleric casting (Nature for example, adds armor, a proficiency, a druid cantrip). Also, remember that cleric, with its prepared spells from a larger list, is a little bit better for a fixed list caster like bard or sorcerer than another prepared caster like wizard. Also, chart above notwithstanding, if you know you are planning to wizard/cleric, remember that you will want to take the cleric at first level for shields and better weapons.

sure, but he asked if having level 2 cleric spells was worth more than spell mastery, which is the question I was trying to answer. and generally speaking, no it is not (though I would be fairly tempted by the knowledge domain to get on-demand proficiency with any tool in existence once per short rest, for use with fabricate, personally... which requires level 2 of cleric :P but that doesn't necessarily give up access to spell mastery, though it certainly pushes it back far enough that it's unlikely to come into play)

[JackPhoenix]

Thank you all for answers.

To be fair, I have a tendency to look at level 20 advantages, even though it's likely the actual game will only get to about 10 or 15th level.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

I have perused 5e. Perhaps a side by side comparison in actual spell slots should be done. Anyone have there phbs handy? I am away from home and on. Moble device. 3.5 just to get to mystic thurge you need 3 levels of wizard and 3 levels of cleric. At this point you are casting 2nd level wizard and 2nd level cleric and your budy playing pathfinder trying to do the same thing is not faring any better. While the person playing 5 has reached 3rd level spells in both classes. This person has fewer wizard spells than a single class 6th level wizard and fewer cleric spells then a single class 6th level cleric. Now lets go forward a few two levels. 3.5 3W 3 C 2 MT you are now casting 3rd level spells, but you have the full spell slots of a 5th level wizard and a 5th level cleric. The guy playing pathfinder samething with some extra goodies thrown in. The guy playing 5e has made it to 8th level spells but again fewer spell slots in each class. By 20 3.5 has made it to 8 and 8 with the full spell slots of a 15th level wizard and a 15 level cleric, toss in praticed spell caster for a 19/19 caster level. pathfinder samething except with a mix of kick but goodies. 5e has made it to 9th level wizard and 9th level cleric spells, but at the cost of half his wizard spells if he had gone single class wizard or cleric spells if he had gone single class cleric. The mystic thurge has the equivlant of 30 full levels. Which is why pathfinder or a mix of pathfinder and 3.5 will probally still kick 5E's but. These my inital finders and bare further invetigation.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

As an avid fan of 3.5 I have found various ways of reducing arcane spell failure to 0
mithril -10%
twilight a +1 enhancment -10%
mastercraft -5%
thistledown undercoating (metal armor only) - 5%

combined you could take up to 30% off an armor and have the most expensive suit of armor in your party.

[Chronos]

Nessa, what does this have to do with 5e? In 5e, any combination of full-casting classes has exactly the same number of spell slots of each level as any single-classed full caster, and there's no such thing as "arcane spell failure": You can cast in any armor you're proficient with, and can't in any armor you're not proficient with.

[SharkForce]

5th edition just has fewer spell slots in general. comparing to 3rd edition or pathfinder is not really a proper comparison.