Help with a Ranger?

[Alejandro]

A friend of mine is going to run the Hoard of the Dragon Queen module for us. My girlfriend, an experienced gamer, wants to play an elven ranger that takes Beast Master and rides on an elk (yes, she likes the Elvenking.)

However, after doing a little reading, it seems to me that not only is the Beast Master Ranger possibly the weakest class setup in the game, but a ranger can't have an elk companion to begin with.

Is there any way to make this work/make it effective?

[Tarrab]

A friend of mine is going to run the Hoard of the Dragon Queen module for us. My girlfriend, an experienced gamer, wants to play an elven ranger that takes Beast Master and rides on an elk (yes, she likes the Elvenking.)

However, after doing a little reading, it seems to me that not only is the Beast Master Ranger possibly the weakest class setup in the game, but a ranger can't have an elk companion to begin with.

Is there any way to make this work/make it effective?

As a DM, in my adventure I ruled a few mods to the Ranger class because it is, honestly, subpar. At least in a mechanics sense (I still think it is awesome with good roleplaying facets, but your DM must be open to interpretation).

Ask him if you can change the class a bit, particularly that archetype (which does work better on smaller races).

The modifications I made to the class are three:
1) When attacking a Favored Enemy, you deal a single aditional die of damage with whichever weapon you have equiped.
2) While in your favored terrain, you gain bonus hitpoints every long rest equal to 5 + 1/2 your level.
3) The Ranger can change his list of known spells every long rest. The amount of spells he can cast must remain the same.

Also, fyi, Rangers are MUCH better with ranged weapons, maybe throw in some sharpshooter and crossbowexpert (hand crossbow and shields are nice together, and so are two hand crossbows).

[Naanomi]

Be a Hunter Ranger (for one level at least) take Beast as your racial enemy, take Forest as your preferred terrain; and use Animal Handling to just track and train an Elk. Take Mounted Combat feat when able.

[Shadow]

Ranger is just fine as is. There's nothing wrong with it. It works and is balanced.
The problem with the BM in this situation is that HotDQ isn't very amiable to large sized or non-stealthy companions.
Beast Master is fine, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it for this adventure path.

And Tarrab: The RAW thread isn't for discussion, it's for questions and answers. It basically says right in the OP not to do what you just did there. The only reason I didn't say this there was because I saw you here. :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

For beastmasters, one fix I've heard is to make commanding it not require the Ranger's action.



The only reason I didn't say this there was because I saw you here. :smallwink:

We have PM for this kind of thing, you know.

[Shadow]

For beastmasters, one fix I've heard is to make commanding it not require the Ranger's action.

Not requiring an action is imbalanced.
You're basically trading one of your attacks for it to attack. 1 for 1, balanced.
The fact that many choices also carry a rider of some kind actually makes the beast's attack better than yours in many cases. So still getting yours on top of that is OP, especially at those low levels. And at higher levels when it gets to attack twice? Then requiring no action is just crazy OP in comparison.
Like I said, BM is fine.

[Mechaviking]

Not requiring an action is imbalanced.
You're basically trading one of your attacks for it to attack. 1 for 1, balanced.
The fact that many choices also carry a rider of some kind actually makes the beast's attack better than yours in many cases. So still getting yours on top of that is OP, especially at those low levels. And at higher levels when it gets to attack twice? Then requiring no action is just crazy OP in comparison.
Like I said, BM is fine.

Potential magical weapon sharpshooter attack for an attack that does at most 2d4+8(at level 20) in my book that is pretty ****ty and why some people call it subpar

You need to be small for some choices to be able to carry a rider, which is fine I have no idea why they didn´t just stick to 1/4 CR or just medium creatures but that is a whole other can of worms.

So at level 17 with some peoples home-brew their ranger can do 4 ranged weapon attacks(instead of 3) and 2 2d4+8 beast attacks assuming the beast lives through incoming attacks and is able to do its attacks at all. It is slightly better, but overpowered? Hardly, but still it goes against the rules written in the game.

If it is killed at any point you have to spend 8 Hours magically bonding with another creature to be able to do this again assuming the world isn´t at stake and you can take your sweet time about it. Also it cannot heal itself(No idea why but), takes full damage from AOE magics is more vulnerable to CC spells(the best use of an animal companion is for it to be the target of an enemy spell) and it cannot relay information to you in any meaningful way. The beast is no smarter or clever than any other beast it simply performs better and is tougher.

The Beast-Master ranger is not fine


In regards to the thread itself I recommend Paladin instead of Ranger since find mount can be a stag. Pick a background that fits with Rangery type skills. Also going Dex+Cha paladin isn´t half bad the rapier is a pretty solid weapon that goes with a shield and you can use longbows, the paladin also has a path that is pretty nature themed. Alternatively just give the ranger find mount as a spell and you should be just fine.

[Balor777]

Not requiring an action is imbalanced.
You're basically trading one of your attacks for it to attack. 1 for 1, balanced.
The fact that many choices also carry a rider of some kind actually makes the beast's attack better than yours in many cases. So still getting yours on top of that is OP, especially at those low levels. And at higher levels when it gets to attack twice? Then requiring no action is just crazy OP in comparison.
Like I said, BM is fine.

Ranger is just fine as is. There's nothing wrong with it. It works and is balanced.
The problem with the BM in this situation is that HotDQ isn't very amiable to large sized or non-stealthy companions.
Beast Master is fine, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it for this adventure path.

And Tarrab: The RAW thread isn't for discussion, it's for questions and answers. It basically says right in the OP not to do what you just did there. The only reason I didn't say this there was because I saw you here. :smallwink:

Dear god at least someone can undestand.
You add your prof. bonus to beasts AC/ATTACKROLLS/DAMAGE ROLLS.
Average damage:
fighter 5 lvl 20STR (gw style) Greadsword rerolling 1-2s
Vs
Ranger5lvl 20DEX 2xshortswords(TWF style) +wolf(has advantage to attacks if you attack the same target)

Both attacking a 16 AC target all included(crits/misses etc)
Fighter 15.80 average DPR
Ranger 17.43 average DPR
Ranger with hunter's mark 19.52 DPR

BM does not need change.The same little wolf at 17 level will atack twice for 2x2d4+8+2d6(hunters mark-shared buffs)(2d6+4d4+16)->33 dpr with + 10 to attack with advantage.
Which means it will hit with 75% probability a 20AC target for 33damage plus a conjure CR=2 Rhinoceros (2d8+5 ->14 damagae +7 to hit~10dpr vs 20 AC enemy) plus your damage (around 15DPR against a 20AC opponent again)is ~ 50 average damage per round( 40 if you exclude the rhino).The same 17 lvl fighter using a +2 GS will deal average 40DPR vs the same target.
BW is VERY good at dealing damage.He does not need any changes whtosoever.
Do you think people at WOTC didnt do the math?Since the release of 5e people are crying for Sorc/BW/Berzerker noone did the math.All these three classes have the tools to deal not the same but better damage
from the supposed not gimbed classses...


If it is killed at any point you have to spend 8 Hours magically bonding with another creature to be able to do this again assuming the world isn´t at stake and you can take your sweet time about it. Also it cannot heal itself(No idea why but), takes full damage from AOE magics is more vulnerable to CC spells(the best use of an animal companion is for it to be the target of an enemy spell) and it cannot relay information to you in any meaningful way. The beast is no smarter or clever than any other beast it simply performs better and is tougher.
The companion beast can have shared protection from energy with you for ressistance to one element or stone skin.A 19AC 68 hp Wolf or a 18AC 68hp Giant owl you can ride to fly and has some 21 passive perception or +11 to perception +10 to stealth with advantage on listen/spot perstpion checks(beast get your prof at skills they ar proficient too).That owl has 8 INT and can undestand languages too.
An axe beak you can ride to fly too will deal 2d8+8 damage per round(without advantage like the wolf).Other beasts have 3d6 poison at every attack vs DC11 cosnt save etc.

You have many tools to be more tha efficient in and out of combat. BM doesnt need any more tools.

[Mechaviking]

@Balor777

Share spells state that when you target yourself the beast also gets the benefit, Hunters mark targets another creature, thus the beast companion will not get the bonus.

Also Str & dex 20 shouldn´t factor into the equation at lvl 5 since point buy is the standard way to generate stats and top stat at that level would be 19.

Also the round you summon creatures and the round following can easily be action surge, you also do not account for either Battlemaster, Eldritch knight or Champion skewing the math even further, furthermore there doesn´t seem to be any GWM calculations which can easily increase damage by 50% skewing the math even further in your favor.

I have no idea what the BW is but I would like to know.

As to the Berserker you can look up the discussion on http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389546-I-ll-NEVER-Die!-(A-Guide-to-the-5E-Barbarian), where I and others have commented on it.

Regarding Sorcerer I haven´t read anything other than that it is extremely good, so good that people have been complaining about quickened cantrips being too good, it also is the only class to be able to haste 2 people at once(twinned haste) and can replicate the lvl 6 Necromancer wizard(again twinned animate dead) among other things.

@Alejandro

Are there any specifics you want to get into? Or did you get enough info already?

[Balor777]

@Balor777

Share spells state that when you target yourself the beast also gets the benefit, Hunters mark targets another creature, thus the beast companion will not get the bonus.

You are right here

Also Str & dex 20 shouldn´t factor into the equation at lvl 5 since point buy is the standard way to generate stats and top stat at that level would be 19.

I gave 20 to both the fighter too so its ok.

Also the round you summon creatures and the round following can easily be action surge, you also do not account for either Battlemaster, Eldritch knight or Champion skewing the math even further, furthermore there doesn´t seem to be any GWM calculations which can easily increase damage by 50% skewing the math even further in your favor.
The fighter is champion with increased critical chances includes inthe equation.
GWM unless you are fighting a VERY low AC opponent does not give 50% DPR.It may actually gimp your DPR because of too many misses.-5 to attack rolls reduces chances to hit(example 18str +3 to prof vs 16 AC target) from 60% to 35% you you gain maybe 3 damage more per round.If you miss your 2 attacks and you have MANY chances you do, unless the DM
likes your party too much the enemy will probably attack your caster who burned his face at the same round.

I have no idea what the BW is but I would like to know.
I ment BM sorry.


As to the Berserker you can look up the discussion on http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389546-I-ll-NEVER-Die!-(A-Guide-to-the-5E-Barbarian), where I and others have commented on it.

Regarding Sorcerer I haven´t read anything other than that it is extremely good, so good that people have been complaining about quickened cantrips being too good, it also is the only class to be able to haste 2 people at once(twinned haste) and can replicate the lvl 6 Necromancer wizard(again twinned animate dead) among other things.

@Alejandro

Are there any specifics you want to get into? Or did you get enough info already?

Ranger is very good.Even if he DOES at the end less damage which he maybe wont he has the utility out of battle.Its a very nice class.

[Mechaviking]

Ranger is very good.Even if he DOES at the end less damage which he maybe wont he has the utility out of battle.Its a very nice class.

Agreed on the out of combat utility.

I haven´t really seen the ranger in action that much, my friend is playing a BM ranger, using a bow and his wolf is mostly ornament, marksmanship is making him awesome(even from level 1) after seeing him level from 1-5 he probably would have been better off being a Hunter ranger, but I´ll never know since he went BM.

[Balor777]

Agreed on the out of combat utility.

I haven´t really seen the ranger in action that much, my friend is playing a BM ranger, using a bow and his wolf is mostly ornament, marksmanship is making him awesome(even from level 1) after seeing him level from 1-5 he probably would have been better off being a Hunter ranger, but I´ll never know since he went BM.
Well if you want to play from range the wolf is a bad choice.Id encourage him to get and axe beack companion for d8+2 damage.Plus he can ride him to attack with the bow while flying probably witha penalty to attack roll.-2 could be ok.

[Mechaviking]

He cant he´s a human.

Also he´s been through several, they just got killed through various AOE´s and hungry monsters.

[Knaight]

If it is killed at any point you have to spend 8 Hours magically bonding with another creature to be able to do this again assuming the world isn´t at stake and you can take your sweet time about it. Also it cannot heal itself(No idea why but), takes full damage from AOE magics is more vulnerable to CC spells(the best use of an animal companion is for it to be the target of an enemy spell) and it cannot relay information to you in any meaningful way. The beast is no smarter or clever than any other beast it simply performs better and is tougher.


Unless the entire campaign is at breakneck pace the whole time (which seems unlikely), the 8 hours thing is a non-issue.

As for the thread as a whole, in the OP it explicitly says that the person playing the ranger is a veteran. I'd expect her to have this under control, which probably includes some way of getting an elk (probably through talking to the GM).

[Alejandro]

She has decided to play a bard instead. We decided Ranger just kind of sucked, especially at low levels compared to everyone else.

[Merc_Kilsek]

For my games as a DM what I did for Rangers (Beast Master) to fit what I want to see:

- Once a action is use on the animal to command it: it will continue to follow that order (within what makes sense). So a order to attack, the animal will continue to do so till something happens to prevent this. If you order your dog to attack the small bear it will continue to do so each round if it can. If that bear climbs a tree to escape the dog will wait at that tree barking at the bear.

- Maybe a little less game changing but helpful to animal companions is I let the proficiency modify include a flat damage reduction to all. Just offers a little more protection to them and helps avoid some deaths.

[Balor777]

He cant he´s a human.

Also he´s been through several, they just got killed through various AOE´s and hungry monsters.

Well he can actualy cause its Large if i remember correct.

[Mechaviking]

Well he can actualy cause its Large if i remember correct.

Ranger animal companion is 1/4 Cr and at maximum medium sized so you cant.

[Malifice]

As a DM, in my adventure I ruled a few mods to the Ranger class because it is, honestly, subpar. At least in a mechanics sense (I still think it is awesome with good roleplaying facets, but your DM must be open to interpretation).

Ask him if you can change the class a bit, particularly that archetype (which does work better on smaller races).

The modifications I made to the class are three:
1) When attacking a Favored Enemy, you deal a single aditional die of damage with whichever weapon you have equiped.
2) While in your favored terrain, you gain bonus hitpoints every long rest equal to 5 + 1/2 your level.
3) The Ranger can change his list of known spells every long rest. The amount of spells he can cast must remain the same.

Also, fyi, Rangers are MUCH better with ranged weapons, maybe throw in some sharpshooter and crossbowexpert (hand crossbow and shields are nice together, and so are two hand crossbows).

I did this:

• Rangers (and the rangers’ animal companion if any) gain advantage on attack rolls against the rangers favored enemies.
• At 9th level Rangers gain Expertise as a Bard.
• At 13th level Rangers gain the improved critical ability, however this only functions against their favored enemies.
• At 19th level Rangers gain extra attack (2).
• The Foe Slayer ability gained at 20th level allows a Ranger to add their wisdom modifier to damage against favored enemies.

[Tarrab]

And Tarrab: The RAW thread isn't for discussion, it's for questions and answers. It basically says right in the OP not to do what you just did there. The only reason I didn't say this there was because I saw you here. :smallwink:

Sorry, still learning the rules of the forum and all. :smallbiggrin:

[Shadow]

Sorry, still learning the rules of the forum and all. :smallbiggrin:

No worries. I saw Pixie/Jan'15 and figured that. The Mods here are much more strict than on many boards, and I don't want to see new people getting in trouble from ignorance. It's easy enough to do when you know the rules and simply post before thinking. :smallredface:
Check out the forum guidelines if you haven't, and always read the OP of any thread. :smallsmile:

[Xetheral]

Ranger5lvl 20DEX 2xshortswords(TWF style) +wolf(has advantage to attacks if you attack the same target)

Remember that, as written, you can't use TWF in the same round that your companion makes an attack. One can only spend a bonus action on TWF if one takes the Attack Action, whereas commanding your companion to attack is its own action (that happens to give you an attack starting at level 5).

Yes, it's stupid, and I would change it, but the necessity of doing so undermines your claim that the Beastmaster doesn't require any changes.

[Balor777]

You burn one weapon attack to make the pet attack.
At 5level you have 1 attack more so a bonus attack too.
Of xourse till 5 only pet or only you can attack because to get a bonus attack with you off hand you have to attack at least once with your main hand.

[Xetheral]

You burn one weapon attack to make the pet attack.
At 5level you have 1 attack more so a bonus attack too.
Of xourse till 5 only pet or only you can attack because to get a bonus attack with you off hand you have to attack at least once with your main hand.

As written, making an attack with the main hand isn't enough to permit a bonus action TWF attack. You have to take the Attack Action, which you aren't doing if you're commanding your pet.

[Giant2005]

As written, making an attack with the main hand isn't enough to permit a bonus action TWF attack. You have to take the Attack Action, which you aren't doing if you're commanding your pet.

I'm sure many would disagree with that assessment (more-so at level 5 when the Ranger is attacking too) but I don't think it is wise for the Ranger to be attacking anyway. He is much better off taking a Cleric level for the Sanctuary spell and having that running imo.
As to the OP, Beastmaster Rangers are immensely powerful but they are also probably the easiest class to gimp with a poor choice of animal companion which imo is their biggest flaw. You either munchkin your Ranger and are OP or you don't munchkin him and end up UP. The class should have had default statistics for their companion and choose the chassis of the beast without it influencing the stats.
Even if the Ranger could have an Elk companion, it would be very inadvisable.

[Santra]

You might also see if she would rather go dex guardian paladin. Similar flavor for a more powerful class. At level five she would get the ability to cast Find steed which summons a permanent (until damaged) mount and one of the explicit options for it is an elk.

[stormywaters]

Which means it will hit with 75% probability a 20AC target for 33damage plus a conjure CR=2 Rhinoceros (2d8+5 ->14 damagae +7 to hit~10dpr vs 20 AC enemy) plus your damage (around 15DPR against a 20AC opponent again)is ~ 50 average damage per round( 40 if you exclude the rhino).The same 17 lvl fighter using a +2 GS will deal average 40DPR vs the same target.
BW is VERY good at dealing damage.He does not need any changes whtosoever.


Why does the beast benefit from Hunter's Mark? It shares spells you cast on yourself, and Hunter's Mark isn't on yourself, it's on a creature.

[archaeo]

As to the OP, Beastmaster Rangers are immensely powerful but they are also probably the easiest class to gimp with a poor choice of animal companion which imo is their biggest flaw. You either munchkin your Ranger and are OP or you don't munchkin him and end up UP. The class should have had default statistics for their companion and choose the chassis of the beast without it influencing the stats.
Even if the Ranger could have an Elk companion, it would be very inadvisable.

I mean, it's hardly difficult to pick a good animal companion; the examples I see in the PHB all seem like pretty good choices, for example. That boar would be an awesome choice for a first companion at level 3.

And, as an aside, I think you'd have to be a real stickler of a DM not to let a player refluff a beast statblock into whatever the player wants their companion to be, within reason. It still has to be a medium CR 1/4 creature, but the sky should be the limit beyond that.