Alchemist WIP based off of Pathfinder/MoE3.5 HELP ME!

[BRKNdevil]

Here is the link to it
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8wfBieQIbTza1FoTERYV0VzOVU/view?usp=sharing

Its to much of an issue to type all of that so that it works here.

Remember constructive comments since this is a wip and everything can be put to change.

As for reasons on why i did this. I was bored. nobody was commenting on the other things i did and so didn't know how to advance their so i chose to do something new.

As for the role it fills. I guess a generalist who can specialize.

Some things that still need to be figured out are Grand Discoveries, Spell list(would like a lot of help here), some more Discoveries and Realizations. Also i need a lot of help balancing out the Archetypes ( called Academic Focus here).

[BRKNdevil]

Added more stuff, but it needs work. Started a spell list, the grand discovery list and one more Discovery and 2 more realizations.

[BRKNdevil]

:smallfrown: So sad, no input on the design.

[Amnoriath]

Right off the bat I can tell you need to vastly tame the bomb. There is a reason why the Eldritch Blast became a 4 attack heavy crossbow rather than the 3.5 original and that is because there isn't that many consistent massive hits without preparation. Just from a single discovery this is dealing out 20d6+10 damage not including AoE, other abilities/spell slots, or more targets. Also in my personal experience the Pathfinder Alchemist is one of the most powerful classes in terms of nova power as well as balancing many strategies without textual tricks so making a 5e class almost word for word isn't a good start.

If the bomb is to be at will(technically the Pathfinder's isn't) it should scale in terms of a standard cantrip as you other abilities can vastly change what you do with it.

[BRKNdevil]

Right off the bat I can tell you need to vastly tame the bomb. There is a reason why the Eldritch Blast became a 4 attack heavy crossbow rather than the 3.5 original and that is because there isn't that many consistent massive hits without preparation. Just from a single discovery this is dealing out 20d6+10 damage not including AoE, other abilities/spell slots, or more targets. Also in my personal experience the Pathfinder Alchemist is one of the most powerful classes in terms of nova power as well as balancing many strategies without textual tricks so making a 5e class almost word for word isn't a good start.

If the bomb is to be at will(technically the Pathfinder's isn't) it should scale in terms of a standard cantrip as you other abilities can vastly change what you do with it.

thats why there are limitations on how often it can be used per day, its half the alchemist level + Prof Bonus + Int mod.
I do like your personal knowledge of the pathfinder alchemist and would like to hear more input on the subject of nova potential and how my 5e version (as is), compares to the nova potential of any other class.
Do you think i should make using a bomb an action by itself and not benefit from the use of extra attack? Do you think i should reduce the die size to d4?

[Amnoriath]

thats why there are limitations on how often it can be used per day, its half the alchemist level + Prof Bonus + Int mod.
I do like your personal knowledge of the pathfinder alchemist and would like to hear more input on the subject of nova potential and how my 5e version (as is), compares to the nova potential of any other class.
Do you think i should make using a bomb an action by itself and not benefit from the use of extra attack? Do you think i should reduce the die size to d4?

1. Your limitations aren't all that different from Pathfinder starting from 6 and growing to 21. While at first it isn't an issue once you start going double digits they are going to be used more than once in every meaningful encounter and eventual in non-meaningful ones. Being that you can throw 2 of these that can still be augmented it means that by using 1/10 of your resources you just did more damage in that action than martials will do for the entire battle. Only 7th-9th level spells have this kind of power.
2. In Pathfinder I actually played more of Mutagen and Extract user but all I needed was a couple of bomb discoveries to shell out damage even the Paladin couldn't at certain times. This was the Fast, Strafe, and Sticky Bomb while you only could use one normally there were extracts that enhanced them further or broke this rule. As a result I was self-buff machine that could deal nasty amounts of damage either way while making some other concoctions for other players.
3. Yes, an action would be more appropriate and decreasing the number a lot but making them at a short or long rest would help keep them through out the day without chaining too much.

[BRKNdevil]

1. so how about i limit it to proficiency bonus + intelligence modifier per long rest? would that correct it?
2. so do you think i should break down the discoveries and weaken the realizations?
3. should the bonus action to throw be removed as well from swift alchemy? would keeping the improvised weapon throwing still be fine as a bonus action?

Does anyone else have pathfinder experience as well as 5e experience? I need as many opinions as possible

[BRKNdevil]

So a new unearthed arcana for eberron came out and so i'm going to adjust the Base Class with this new information in mind. Probably minor, I'm finding that the infuse potion could just be a discovery, but what are everyone elses suggestions? I am still trying to figure out how to adjust the bomb damage. As is, i think that the class's ability to nova can be reduced by reducing the damage die to a D4 but without making it seem to weak. I'm also going to keep the reduction in daily uses as well.

[BRKNdevil]

Added a discovery, moved mutagens and cognatagens into a single thing and simplified the mechanics, then moved that to a discover, added the potion making ability from the most recent UA as a discovery. Need to rebalance the madman and would like suggestions. Broke up some discoveries and finally, reduced the damage of the bomb to d4s. I would like further assessments on the balance of the alchemist.

[Wartex1]

I looked at it, and even though I've never played Pathfinder, this looks really cool.

I really hope that this eventually gets finished.

For the Chirurgeon, you could do something like a Regeneration spell, or maybe even something like spending a spell slot to revive a recently deceased character.

[BRKNdevil]

Ok, so the Chirgeon now has an 18th level ability and i added Revivify to his 10th. Rewrote the Madman for the most part, but it needs looking at. Added a few Realizations, those are added to the end of the Realizations so someone should look at that.

I also made the first draft of the spell list as well as a separate list for the ones from the Elemental Evils Players companion. The ones with the double Asterisks are the ones I will not be moved on, but I want to reduce the spell lists to have between 10 and 15 spells for each spell level except for 4th and 5th with between 5 and 10 spells. I want at least 3-5 spells that could benefit from the Concentrated Dose Class ability, but I dunno what i should add or remove. Especially Remove. I would like everyone's input on that subject.

[Wartex1]

For Final Stages, here are some ideas:

Natural Weapons
Extra boost to AC
Gain a stat bonus/penalty in addition to chosen stats

Also, for Finished Product, instead of preparation being removed, how about reducing prep time to an action, so you can transform the next turn? That way, it's more balanced.

As for the Chirurgeon capstone name, how about Cauterization Blast?

Another note: It says "per rogue level" when in the Hit Dice section.

(slightly disappointed at the lack of an acid bomb)

[BRKNdevil]

For Final Stages, here are some ideas:

Natural Weapons
Extra boost to AC
Gain a stat bonus/penalty in addition to chosen stats

the first two are gained through a realization and a discovery, and the last i wasn't sure would be balanced



Also, for Finished Product, instead of preparation being removed, how about reducing prep time to an action, so you can transform the next turn? That way, it's more balanced.

I dunno on how actually balanced that action would be and thus would prefer more input



As for the Chirurgeon capstone name, how about Cauterization Blast?

Mainly because that seems more like something that would make you stable rather then healed. I'm still trying to find something of the like among holy type attacks from games and such that are based on holy mythological creatures.



Another note: It says "per rogue level" when in the Hit Dice section.

(slightly disappointed at the lack of an acid bomb)

Thanks for the error heads up, and i couldn't think of a extra effect to go along with the acid bomb that would be appropriate, nor a name of some creature in myth that would fit with the concept.

[Wartex1]

Maybe you could do an effect based off of the Contagion spell, such as Flesh Rot, but only for one round. That, or it would damage natural armor or worn armor.

There's an acid spitting worm of Mongolian legend called the Olgoi-Khorkhoi. So, maybe something like Khorkhoi's Spit?

[Wartex1]

Then how about choosing one or two of a handful of special features?

Among those could be flight, blindsense/blindsight, various martial feats, etc.

[BRKNdevil]

So i have been working on the spell list with suggestions from multiple boards (still needs work), and now I messed with the madman line
I'm trying to decide whether or not to keep it as is where they can use their spell attack roll for melee attacks while granting their enemies an advantage to attack them, or if i should switch it to a reckless attack at 2nd level and make its so that while under the effects of the concoction they can use their spell attack instead of their normal attack rolls.

[BRKNdevil]

made further updates to the class, still need spell list help

[vudu]

Level 7 isn't currently in your table, but provides Discovery (2). Not a huge deal, just initially confused me when I reviewed quickly.

I would also add the bomb damage scale up to the table since it is unique to the class and will be easier to track for everyone by table.

[BRKNdevil]

thx and fixed, overall, what do you think of the class and what do you think needs to be done? do you think it has hit the playtest stage?

[BRKNdevil]

Updated

Added more Realizations and cleaned up some wording here and there

Worked on the Spell list

Remember that Realizations are supposed to be weaker then Discoveries. I would like people to check and make sure that holds true
Would like opinion on Spell List
I will not be adding homebrew spells

[bloodshed343]

Well, since you PEACHed my Janissary, I'll PEACH your Alchemist.

The first thing that hits me is that Arcane Recovery is too powerful for a half-caster. A 10th level alchemist has about the same spellcasting ability as a 10th level warlock, since the Alchemist can get a 3rd and 2nd level spell slot back every short rest, in addition to all it's daily slots. The Alchemist casting is less powerful but a lot more versatile. I would replace this feature with something that lets an alchemist trade bomb uses for spell slots, at a rate of 1 level of spell slot for each bomb use traded.

Concentrated Dose is a bit too much. I could see this being the opposite of arcane recovery, allowing the alchemist to trade spell slots for bomb uses, at the rate of one bomb use per level of spell slot.

I don't have time to go over the discoveries/realizations, but I'll get back to you on that.

[BRKNdevil]

K, SO arcane recovery was to help deal with the extra uses and the less spell slots that a half caster gets. The build doesn't automatically get extra attack so i figured it would be fine. The concentrated dose only works on 5th or lower spells that an alchemist gets and is only used to cast those spells at higher spell slots at the cost of having even less spells to use per day. So figured it would be fine. Can you theory craft a situation where it would outshine sorcerer or bard?

Also, it should be only one arcane recovery per long rest, so did i screw up in the wording?

[bloodshed343]

K, SO arcane recovery was to help deal with the extra uses and the less spell slots that a half caster gets. The build doesn't automatically get extra attack so i figured it would be fine. The concentrated dose only works on 5th or lower spells that an alchemist gets and is only used to cast those spells at higher spell slots at the cost of having even less spells to use per day. So figured it would be fine. Can you theory craft a situation where it would outshine sorcerer or bard?

Also, it should be only one arcane recovery per long rest, so did i screw up in the wording?

I misread the arcane recovery. I thought it was every short rest. The two features together would have been op because you could spend a fourth level slot to bump up a spell then immediately gain it back on a short rest.

I think it will depend on the spell list. If you limit it to only utility spells, it should be fine, but if you had spells like prayer of healing or animate dead it could get out on hand, since he has the ability to cast those as 9th level spells up to twice a day at 18th level. This means the alchemist/necromancer is better than a pure necromancer.

I think it makes alchemist 3 the best base for casters because it effectively gives 2 9th level spell slots, albeit one of them only works with spells of 5th level or lower.

This is an insane power boost for minion masters. If you cast animate dead using a level 4 and 5 slot separately, you get 8 skeletons. But if you combine them to a 9th level spell, you get 13 skeletons. If you were clever with this feature you could have the biggest army in the game.

If you just want to increase damage of evocation spells, you could have it be similar to smite where you spend bomb uses to add die to the damage.

[BRKNdevil]

Should I remove Animate Dead? It fits for fluff reasons, but if its mechanically unbalanced, i'm fine with removing it.

Concentrate Dose is supposed to be worded that it only works with Alchemist spells, so if you leave at 3rd you'd only be able to boost 1st and 2nd level spells. If this is no conveyed, how should i reword it?

[bloodshed343]

Should I remove Animate Dead? It fits for fluff reasons, but if its mechanically unbalanced, i'm fine with removing it.

Concentrate Dose is supposed to be worded that it only works with Alchemist spells, so if you leave at 3rd you'd only be able to boost 1st and 2nd level spells. If this is no conveyed, how should i reword it?

That was the problem with animate dead specifically. It's a 2nd level spell, I think.

Simply moving it higher in the chart so you can't combine it with necromancer would be fine.

Another option is to add a clause clarifying that you can only combine alchemist spell slots.

Personally, I would rework alchemist casting entirely. I would let them store spells like bombs, and give them a number of mana points to activate their spellbombs. Something like it modifier + alchemist level creations per day, and use the spell point variant in the dmg. This would make concentrated dose only usable with alchemist creations as well as with alchemist spell points.

[BRKNdevil]

That was the problem with animate dead specifically. It's a 2nd level spell, I think.

Simply moving it higher in the chart so you can't combine it with necromancer would be fine.

Another option is to add a clause clarifying that you can only combine alchemist spell slots.

Personally, I would rework alchemist casting entirely. I would let them store spells like bombs, and give them a number of mana points to activate their spellbombs. Something like it modifier + alchemist level creations per day, and use the spell point variant in the dmg. This would make concentrated dose only usable with alchemist creations as well as with alchemist spell points.

K, so 5e doesn't do alternative spell levels for individual spells among individual spellcasters, so i might as well remove it. It also doesn't do separate spell slots. Spell slots are spell slots. If i switch to spell point variant, then it probably would only be used in games with only spell point variant rules so i figured not to and 5e doesn't have individually prepared spells like it did for 3.5 wizards.

[bloodshed343]

K, so 5e doesn't do alternative spell levels for individual spells among individual spellcasters, so i might as well remove it. It also doesn't do separate spell slots. Spell slots are spell slots. If i switch to spell point variant, then it probably would only be used in games with only spell point variant rules so i figured not to and 5e doesn't have individually prepared spells like it did for 3.5 wizards.

I meant moving the feature up, not the spell. And there is a difference between spell slots gained from the Pact Magic feature and spell slots gained from the Spellcasting feature. Just call it something besides spell casting and say that concentrated dose only works with spell slots gained from x feature.