Spell interactions

[ivanbin]

Scenario: You are a wizard. You cast enlarge person and share it with familiar, then polymorph into something.
What happens to the size inclincrease?
A) You are both bigger
B) Only the familiar is bigger because it specifically ignores target limitations of shared spells

[jedipotter]

Nothing.

1. Caster casts enlarge person and it effects both the caster and the familiar, so they both get bigger.
2. Caster casts polymorph, and it effects both the caster and the familiar.

So you could make your Dimutave toad Tiny, and then well polymorph it into anything of most any size as per the ploymorph spell description

The original size for polymorph does not matter much, a medium sized human could ploymorph into an owl. So your familiar owl could become a medium sized human.

Enlarge person does not seem to help much, what was your ''plan''?

[ivanbin]

Nothing.

1. Caster casts enlarge person and it effects both the caster and the familiar, so they both get bigger.
2. Caster casts polymorph, and it effects both the caster and the familiar.

So you could make your Dimutave toad Tiny, and then well polymorph it into anything of most any size as per the ploymorph spell description

The original size for polymorph does not matter much, a medium sized human could ploymorph into an owl. So your familiar owl could become a medium sized human.

Enlarge person does not seem to help much, what was your ''plan''?Jedipotter mmisses the point as usual.
1) This wants to enable new sizes. Polymorph, like alter self only allows new form to be 1 size category away from original size.
2) Question was if Enlarge person will keep working after your type changes as per polymorph rules

[eggynack]

Nothing about a type change would impact already in place spell effects. Target matters on targeting. However, there is a controversy about whether using polymorph to take a larger form qualifies as a magical effect that increases size. If it does, then enlarge person's size increasing ability cannot stack with that of polymorph, assuming you use polymorph to take a larger form. If you pick a form of the same size though, there is definitely no conflict, and you'll be a bigger creature of the form you take.

Incidentally, it's not really clear the extent to which polymorph inherits the size limitation of alter self, as "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine," could plausibly represent a full replacement of the line, "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size," as opposed to just a replacement of the lower end of the range. As a result, there is an interpretation that dictates that there is no maximum size associated with polymorph. Just as is the case with the stacking, the rules here are a bit murky.

[jedipotter]

Jedipotter mmisses the point as usual.
1) This wants to enable new sizes. Polymorph, like alter self only allows new form to be 1 size category away from original size.
2) Question was if Enlarge person will keep working after your type changes as per polymorph rules

If you could expertly comment so much, maybe you could answer the OP questions?

I'll admit I'm not up on all tricks and interpretations of the rules.

Though my Players Handbook does not have the ''one size category limit'' for Polymorph, but maybe I just have a first printing or something.



As a result, there is an interpretation that dictates that there is no maximum size associated with polymorph. Just as is the case with the stacking, the rules here are a bit murky.

So this is a stacking question? It does not seem to apply. Polymorph lets the caster assume a form of any size, but no smaller then Fine. So, it does not matter what size the caster starts as....

[eggynack]

If you could expertly comment so much, maybe you could answer the OP questions?
He is the OP, so probably not.


Though my Players Handbook does not have the ''one size category limit'' for Polymorph, but maybe I just have a first printing or something.
That finds its source from the line, "This spell functions like alter self..." which means that it may inherit the size limit of alter self, as I noted.

[jedipotter]

He is the OP, so probably not.


Oh, really....



That finds its source from the line, "This spell functions like alter self..." which means that it may inherit the size limit of alter self, as I noted.

How about the lines of ''except'' and the four paragraphs after that...

[Kazyan]

How about the lines of ''except'' and the four paragraphs after that...

The four paragraphs don't say anything the contradicts the size limiter. It says you can't take a form smaller than Fine, but doesn't actually tell you what sizes you are allowed to take, so we're forced to assume they're the same as in Alter Self. Compare to Shapechange, which specifically says any size from Fine to Colossal is fair game.

[eggynack]

How about the lines of ''except'' and the four paragraphs after that...
The only exception in this case is that the minimum size is fine. The question, then, is whether that's an exception to the whole rule on sizes in alter self, or only to the low end. I'm inclined to think the former, but the other argument makes sense as well.

[jedipotter]

The four paragraphs don't say anything the contradicts the size limiter. It says you can't take a form smaller than Fine, but doesn't actually tell you what sizes you are allowed to take, so we're forced to assume they're the same as in Alter Self. Compare to Shapechange, which specifically says any size from Fine to Colossal is fair game.

Well, I read that as Polymorph does not have a size limitation, it has a HD limitation. So you can polymorph to any size, but not smaller then fine.

That is my common sense ruling, as otherwise you can't have a human Polymorph into something like a bird or rat without them first casting another spell to shrink themselves.

[ivanbin]

Oh, really....


Yes really. I can assure you that I AM infact the OP.

[eggynack]

Well, I read that as Polymorph does not have a size limitation, it has a HD limitation. So you can polymorph to any size, but not smaller then fine.

That is my common sense ruling, as otherwise you can't have a human Polymorph into something like a bird or rat without them first casting another spell to shrink themselves.
It makes sense to assume that fine does replace the lower end of alter self's size limitation, but not the top end, which would mean that the range goes from fine to one size larger than your own. In any case, rules issues tend to be matters of semantics rather than of common sense, and in this case the semantics in question are rather foggy. Less so on the OP's question though. That one leans heavily towards size altering magic not stacking.

[jedipotter]

Alter self (PH 197), the base spell in the polymorph
chain, says that the new form must be within one size
category of your normal size. Is the same true of other
spells in the chain?
Not necessarily, although the rules aren’t as clear as they
could be. Polymorph, and any spell that refers back to it (such
as polymorph any object), allows the new form to be of any
size of Fine or greater. Shapechange specifically delineates its
size limitations (Fine to Colossal), which is a much clearer way
of saying the same thing.



Of course that is just what the old FAQ says, and SKR in the ''all about ploymorph thread''.

[eggynack]

Of course that is just what the old FAQ says, and SKR in the ''all about ploymorph thread''.
The FAQ doesn't really have any particular bearing on RAW.

[Khedrac]

Heh - Curmudgeon hasn't posted yet!

As C normally points out Enlarge Person states this:

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,.
This means that you cannot use Enlarge + Polymorph to make a non-standard sized version of what you polymorph into.
There's also a strong argument that it means it's not going to alter the range of forms permitted by any size-limited magical form-change either because of the "no stacking" rule.

As for the specific example of Polymorph, Alternate Form states this:

The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.
And the limit is based on "normal size" not "size while I am under the effect of a temporary spell" so it definitely won't work with Enlarge Person or similar.
If you are habitually (so all waking hours and probably most of the time while asleep) in a larger form, then you may be able to declare that your new "normal form", but that is a DM call. Also it would need not to be a magic size change, or one that explicitly states it will stack.

Now Polymorph does state a size limit of Fine, which would appear to replace the "one size smaller" limit, but without explicitly stating it, it does not, but only applies to recipients that small to begin with. It looks as if the intention was to relax the size restrictions, but without explicitly doing so that is DM's houserule territory.

[Necroticplague]

Scenario: You are a wizard. You cast enlarge person and share it with familiar, then polymorph into something.
What happens to the size inclincrease?
A) You are both bigger
B) Only the familiar is bigger because it specifically ignores target limitations of shared spells

When you polymorph, the increased size goes away, essentially. If you turn into an Elf, you end up Medium, regardless of whether you were Medium or Large when you used the polymorph.

Of course, assuming that you don't share the polymorph, its entirely possible to have the end result being your familiar is larger. Say, You Enlarge Person, share it with your familiar, then Polymorph back into a Medium form. Your familiar is still under Enlarge Person, so they're bigger, but you're medium now.

[Duke of Urrel]

I'm not sure what opinion people reading this thread may have of the D&D FAQs (June 30, 2008), but here's a relevant question-and-answer passage from page 77.



Alter self (PH 197), the base spell in the polymorph chain, says that the new form must be within one size category of your normal size. Is the same true of other spells in the chain?

Not necessarily, although the rules aren’t as clear as they could be. Polymorph, and any spell that refers back to it (such as polymorph any object), allows the new form to be of any size of Fine or greater. Shapechange specifically delineates its size limitations (Fine to Colossal), which is a much clearer way of saying the same thing.

I think it's up to the dungeon master to judge whether the effect of the Enlarge Person spell persists (following the general rule) or is made irrelevant by the Polymorph spell – a possibility mentioned in the Player's Handbook on page 172.

I believe the Polymorph spell should make the effect of the Enlarge Person spell (or the Reduce Person spell) irrelevant, because the power of the Polymorph spell to alter a creature's Strength score, Dexterity score, and size category exceeds the power of the Enlarge Person (or Reduce Person) spell. Likewise, I believe the Polymorph spell should make the effect of the Bull's Strength spell (or the Bear's Endurance spell or the Cat's Grace spell) irrelevant, because the power of the Polymorph spell to alter a creature's physical ability scores exceeds the power of the Bull's Strength spell (or the Bear's Endurance spell or the Cat's Grace spell).

In contrast, I don't believe the Polymorph spell should make the Darkvision spell irrelevant, because the Polymorph spell, in contrast to the Darkvision spell, doesn't have the power to bestow Darkvision (because this is an extraordinary special quality).

EDIT: Actually, after reading some astute comments above, I'd like to revise my judgement as follows.

Following the rules on pages 171 and 172 of the Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (2008), one spell does not affect the way another spell operates, except when two spells change the same statistic in the same way. Two spell effects that change the same statistic in the same way do not stack; instead, the greater effect makes the lesser effect irrelevant. For example, the Bull's Strength spell persists when you cast the Alter Self spell, because the Alter Self spell cannot change your Strength score. In contrast, if the effects of the Bull's Strength spell and the Polymorph spell both increase a creature's Strength score, the two effects do not stack, and only the greater increase counts, but if the former spell increases the subject's Strength score and the latter decreases it, both spells count. If two spells have equal and opposite effects, the effect of the second spell cancels out that of the first spell. For example, the Polymorph spell, cast after the Darkvision spell, cancels the Darkvision, but the Darkvision spell, cast after the Polymorph spell, bestows or restores Darkvision.

I agree with other commenters that the spellcaster may choose not to share a spell with his or her familiar, even if the latter remains within five feet, so as to keep sharing the effect of a previously cast spell.

[Renen]

Well actually, id argue that polymorph gives me a new base Str score, while bulls strength actually increases it. As such i see no reason they wouldnt stack.