How to "counter" these suggestions (spell)?

[gogogome]

I don't have a problem balance wise. I just want to know if there's some alternate, unintended behavior I can make the NPCs perform to make the player think harder, or if there is some rule that prevents some of these suggestions.

1. "You're fighting the realm's best team of masseuses right now! Throw down your arms, apologize, unequip your armor, and lie down so they can do what they do best."

The enemy who failed his will save is now unarmed, no armor, and prone.

2. "You're fighting the realm's best magic surgeon! Throw down your arms, apologize, and let him strap you down so he can perform the necessary procedure to make you incredibly stronger"

The enemy who failed his will save is now helpless for a coup de grace.

3. "The gods are incredibly angry at you! Get down on your knees and pray like crazy if you don't want them to splatter you across the floor and send you to hell!"

The enemy who failed his will save is now blind, unarmed, and prone.

4. "These are all illusions trying to kill you! Close your eyes and block your ears so you can't perceive them!"

The enemy who failed his will save is now blind, deaf, unarmed, and refuses to fight back.

5. "Your mother just died. Go to her place so you can bury her."

Enemy withdraws from the fight, and arguably, gives his full CR xp.

6. "You can bend the world around you if you close your eyes and concentrate. So close your eyes and try to make your enemy's heads explode"

The enemy who failed his will save is now blind, deaf, and refuses to fight back.

7. "The cliff is actually an invisible road to the secret mansion of pleasure! Step over the cliff and go there!"

The enemy who failed his will save will now take fall damage, unless he's a spellcaster, in which case he probably will cast fly or feather fall just in case.

All these suggestions rely heavily on the example in the PHB: Telling a guy a pool of acid is actually water and that he should take a refreshing dip. The example changed the guy's awareness of the situation (what's hostile and what's passive) and made him perform a damaging act on himself.

I don't have a problem balance wise, it's just a single target save-or-die with a lot of creatures being totally immune to it, and it can be "cured" by a protection from evil/good cast by the enemy spellcaster. Also, doesn't work on most creatures since you don't know their language. He had another suggestion: "Death is the ultimate salvation! Kill everyone you care about", but that doesn't work because the target will kill himself after killing everyone, violating the no-suicide rule in the suggestion spell.

edit: Made some corrections

[Jack_Simth]

I don't have a problem balance wise. I just want to know if there's some alternate, unintended behavior I can make the NPCs perform to make the player think harder, or if there is some rule that prevents some of these suggestions.

1. "You're fighting the realm's best team of masseuses right now! Throw down your arms, unequip your armor, and lie down so they can do what they do best."

The enemy who failed his will save is now unarmed, no armor, and prone.

You're still FIGHTING them, so laying down doesn't sound reasonable.


2. "You're fighting the realm's best magic surgeon! Throw down your arms and let him strap you down so he can perform the necessary procedure to make you incredibly stronger"

The enemy who failed his will save is now helpless for a coup de grace.

You're still FIGHTING them, so laying down doesn't sound reasonable.


3. "The gods are incredibly angry at you! Get down on your knees and pray like crazy if you don't want them to splatter you across the floor and send you to hell!"

The enemy who failed his will save is now helpless for a coup de grace.

Blind and kneeling for a few rounds, maybe, if the target's culture has praying done with eyes closed. Still very vulnerable, but not Helpless.


4. "These are all illusions trying to kill you! Close your eyes and block your ears so they can't affect you!"

The enemy who failed his will save is now helpless for a coup de grace.


Blind and Deaf != Helpless.


5. "Your mother just died. Go to her place so you can bury her."

Enemy withdraws from the fight, and arguably, gives his full CR xp.

Given that it requires a failed Will save... not so bad, balance-wise. You're not going to use it often, though, as you miss out on the loot.


6. "You can bend the world around you if you close your eyes and concentrate. So close your eyes and try to make your enemy's heads explode"

The enemy who failed his will save is now helpless.

Blind != Helpless. Very much weaker, yes, but not helpless.


7. "The cliff is actually an invisible road to the secret mansion of pleasure! Step over the cliff and go there!"

The enemy who failed his will save will now take fall damage, unless he's a spellcaster, in which case he probably will cast fly or feather fall just in case.

Requires a cliff to be nearby. Very situational. Depending on the cliff, less useful than Fireball (although it does also get the target out of the way for a while, even if the target survives the damage).



All these suggestions rely heavily on the example in the PHB: Telling a guy a pool of acid is actually water and that he should take a refreshing dip. The example changed the guy's awareness of the situation (what's hostile and what's passive) and made him perform a damaging act on himself.

I don't have a problem balance wise, it's just a single target save-or-die with a lot of creatures being totally immune to it, and it can be "cured" by a protection from evil/good cast by the enemy spellcaster. Also, doesn't work on most creatures since you don't know their language. He had another suggestion: "Death is the ultimate salvation! Kill everyone you care about", but that doesn't work because the target will kill himself after killing everyone, violating the no-suicide rule in the suggestion spell.

Save or suck, sometimes save or lose, not save or die. The second-level spell Glitterdust is more reliable.

Edit:
Oh yes, and point of order: Suggestion doesn't grant ongoing control, so isn't actually stopped by Protection From Evil.

[Psyren]

Why would "get on your knees and pray" make you helpless? Nothing says you have to close your eyes or even stop fighting while praying. Heck, clerics pray while fighting all the time, just look at any swift-action spell.

"You can bend the world, make yourself defenseless to try it!" isn't reasonable by any stretch.



4. "These are all illusions trying to kill you! Close your eyes and block your ears so they can't affect you!"

The enemy who failed his will save is now helpless for a coup de grace.

This one's just plain ridiculous - if you convince the target they are illusions, the second part of the statement makes no sense, because illusions trying to kill you is not threatening.

[Cazero]

All these suggestions rely heavily on the example in the PHB: Telling a guy a pool of acid is actually water and that he should take a refreshing dip. The example changed the guy's awareness of the situation (what's hostile and what's passive) and made him perform a damaging act on himself.

Actually, there is a huge difference between your examples and the one in the PHB.
Your examples are based on believing bull*hit lies. The PHB example is based on a need made imperious enough to forget something critically important.

So I would say none of these works, but the cliff (edit : assuming coastal cliff) one could if you suggest to the target that he really, really wants to dive in sea water right now.

[jedipotter]

I would not allow most of your examples to work in combat. The rest are very situational....and might not always work. With suggestion, it's best to stick to things that are known or can be seen.

Once your in combat, you can't suggestion someone to do something that will be obviously harmful like ''drop your weapons and let us kill you''.

[Kid Jake]

4. "These are all illusions trying to kill you! Close your eyes and block your ears so they can't affect you!"

The enemy who failed his will save is now helpless for a coup de grace.


First thing that popped into my head:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/UnLegend/Disbelieve_zpsf51185f1.png

[Cazero]

To illustrate my point, here is an example of suggestion based on a blatant lie (starting mid page).
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html
See how Nale acts? That requires at least a succesful bluff check before even trying to cast the spell, and the spell suggestion was made as simple as possible. What stopped the suggestion was not countradicting the suggested emotionnal state, but revealing the setting up lie.

[Troacctid]

Absent context, I don't think 1 and 2 sound reasonable. If you were all dressed as masseuses, maybe, but I assume you're not. And you wouldn't stop in the middle of a battle to get surgery, that's just silly.

3 seems like it would work, but it's not a very powerful effect--you just get them to drop to their knees, which is only a -2 penalty to AC against melee attacks (but +2 against ranged) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). Whatever.

4 seems okay provided they don't understand how illusions actually work (not everyone is trained in Spellcraft), but it only makes them blind and deaf, not helpless. And they'll probably open their eyes again if you attack them, so you get one shot.

5 is a pretty risky gambit. What if their mother is already dead? What if their mother is on another plane? What if their mother isn't living alone, and there's someone else who should be burying her? And so on. It might work on some people, but another person might just say "Me mum died years ago, mate. Fell in the outhouse, drowned in her own ****. It were real tragic, aye. The neighbors brought flowers an' everything."

6 and 7 are pretty far-fetched. Neither of those sounds reasonable to me. Especially that cliff one. Reminds me of that old joke:

See, there were these two guys in a lunatic asylum… and one night, one night they decide they don’t like living in an asylum any more. They decide they’re going to escape! So, like, they get up onto the roof, and there, just across this narrow gap, they see the rooftops of the town, stretching away in the moon light… stretching away to freedom. Now, the first guy, he jumps right across with no problem. But his friend, his friend didn’t dare make the leap. Y’see… Y’see, he’s afraid of falling. So then, the first guy has an idea… He says, “Hey! I have my flashlight with me! I’ll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk along the beam and join me!” B-but the second guy just shakes his head. He suh-says… He says, “Wh-what do you think I am? Crazy? You’d turn it off when I was half way across!
"Like, what kind of moron do you take me for, dude? I go down that invisible road and it probably leads me right into, like, an invisible prison cell or something! I'm not stupid."

[Ashtagon]

I wouldn't allow most of those.

Suggestion let's you propose a course of action. It does not allow you to convince the target that reality has changed. Believing that the water is acid (or vice versa) is one thing, since they basically look like each other. Believing that the orcs are masseuses (or vice versa) really depends on whether you are in an high-class orc village or not.

[gogogome]

Yeah, it still seems I have trouble understanding this spell.

So blind+deaf != helpless, so at best some of the examples will make the guy blind+deaf+unarmed. I guess you need to be unconscious to be helpless for a coup de grace. But if the guy is own his knees, praying, with his eyes closed, I have a hard time picturing him defending against a guy going behind him to slit his throat or to bash his head with a two handed metal object.

Let me try my best to understand this spell since one of my players is an absolute fanatic of this spell.


Guy sees pool of acid, and determines it is dangerous and should steer clear of it.
Suggestion spell changes his judgement that the pool of acid is pool of water.
Suggestion mind controls the guy to take a dip in the "water" mid-battle.


Red is the truth
Green is the lie
Blue is the course of action

So in that specific PHB example, I think my player is saying "You can make the guy believe one lie, and suggest a course of activity."

But after reading the replies, it seems there might be a limit to the lie, so what's the limit? The guy is staring at a bubbling pool of green goop and the spell makes him think it's sparkling spring water, so it's clear the spell allows you to change how the target perceives the reality around him.

A common example I've been allowing is "Your allies are going to stab you in the back! Kill them all and surrender to your pursuers if you don't want to die!"

But I see the difference, though i can't explain it, between the two examples in this post and saying "Your god is gonna kill you" or "you have super telekinetic powers." Could someone put the difference into words for me?

As for the masseuse and magic surgeon, what if you add "apologize" next to "throw down your weapons"?

D&D becomes mind bogglingly hard if you get one of these types of players in the group. He's a sorcerer by the way, so I can't really blame him trying to get the most versatility out of a spell.



Oh yes, and point of order: Suggestion doesn't grant ongoing control, so isn't actually stopped by Protection From Evil.

Doesn't suggestion last 1hour/CL? And has the mind-affecting and compulsion tags? The other PHB example shows the party "controlling" a dragon with this spell as a mercenary.

[Ashtagon]

For me, the lie would have to pass the "bovine excrement" test. Acid (real acid, not Hollywood Acid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodAcid)) does not glow green and does not bubble or fizz. In point of fact, it generally is visibly not that different from water.

Going through the list...


1. "You're fighting the realm's best team of masseuses right now! Throw down your arms, apologize, unequip your armor, and lie down so they can do what they do best."

Lie is unbelievable, and ignored (unless the PCs actually were dressed up as vulnerable masseuses). The command would fail because they are clearly in a life-or-death situation. On the off-chance the PCs actually were dressed up as masseuses, I'd say it depends on their instructions. They might call on the PCs to surrender, or if they had specific orders, they might just continue fighting anyway. Possibly opposed Charisma checks between their commander and the caster. That all depends on the PCs mode of dress in the first place though.


2. "You're fighting the realm's best magic surgeon! Throw down your arms, apologize, and let him strap you down so he can perform the necessary procedure to make you incredibly stronger"

Fails the bovine test, unless magical surgery (and FREE magical surgery at that) is actually a common thing in your campaign.


3. "The gods are incredibly angry at you! Get down on your knees and pray like crazy if you don't want them to splatter you across the floor and send you to hell!"

The gods may well be angry, but there's someone else right in front of him right now trying to kill him. Basic survival instincts would mean he'd continue fighting. Outside of combat, this may well be a good way to get a guy off-guard though.


4. "These are all illusions trying to kill you! Close your eyes and block your ears so you can't perceive them!"

Even if the suggestion spell works, disbelieving an illusion doesn't require a character to render himself blind and deaf. I'd allow him to roll a disbelieve check against the "illusions", wasting a standard action of his (but he'd still be dodging etc.). If he believes the "illusion", no further effect. If he disbelieves the illusion, he'd be vulnerable enough to get one good hit on him, then the "illusion" would be proven to be real.


5. "Your mother just died. Go to her place so you can bury her."

In combat, he'd carry on fighting - life or death struggle. This could work quite well out of combat, especially if the PCs cast it immediately upon meeting him. If they'd been in his company for an hour then they did this, bovine test comes into play.


6. "You can bend the world around you if you close your eyes and concentrate. So close your eyes and try to make your enemy's heads explode"


Yer a wizard, Harry.

Unless he'd just levelled up right that minute, or had delusions of being a spellcaster already, bovine test applies. Even so, assuming he has ever had any contact with spellcasters at all, he'd know casters don't cast spells by rendering themselves blind and defenceless.


7. "The cliff is actually an invisible road to the secret mansion of pleasure! Step over the cliff and go there!"

In combat, life or death struggle takes priority. Out of combat, I'd let it work, but give him a second save +4 right before he takes the final step.

[Deophaun]

Guy sees pool of acid, and determines it is dangerous and should steer clear of it.


I'm not sure where this comes from, as it's not part of the example. In fact, considering the spell says taking obviously harmful acts negates the spell, it seems as though ignorance of the liquid's true nature is required.

[gogogome]

I'm not sure where this comes from, as it's not part of the example. In fact, considering the spell says taking obviously harmful acts negates the spell, it seems as though ignorance of the liquid's true nature is required.

Huh... you maybe right. The example also doesn't say it was cast in combat. For all we know the guy doesn't know water from acid, and had the spell cast on him out of combat. But then again acid in d&d is literally, bubbling green goo is it not? They don't say it's HCl specifically, otherwise there could be "base" damage since bases are equally destructive as acids, and I'm pretty sure there is not a single real life acid or base that is green, unless it's some sort of weak acid.

Can't have a discussion with my player debating that acid fact because he would throw a massive fit.

Actually, I'm leaning towards my player's interpretation because if you can't use it in combat, what's the point?

Anyways, after a lot of thought, I think I have an idea. The target must have at least some suspicion of the lie for the spell to take effect. i.e. you can suggest a bandit his underlings are gonna murder him in his sleep, but not a paladin who completely and totally trusts his comrades. Same thing with the illusion and god thing. The target must believe he has angered his god at least slightly for the god example to work, and the target must have experienced some sort of illusion spell in the past for the illusion example to work. Suggestion gotta grow something, not out of the blue.

Thanks guys I think I have my answer.

[ericgrau]

There is a lot of DM involvement with this spell but "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. " and "A very reasonable suggestion causes the save to be made with a penalty (such as -1 or -2). " The spell is meant to be something semi-reasonable. I don't think that includes a free +50 bluff check. Yes what's reasonable is up to the DM, but I'd say "your enemy is X so make yourself vulnerable to immediate death" is obviously harmful to you. Sure there are varying levels of gullibility and little concrete, but I think most of what is in the original post should make most DMs say "N'uh, too obviously hurtful."

I've told an enemy to flee because he will not win the fight. The DM seeing that one of his allies already dropped, gave him a penalty on his save. Then there are the three PHB examples. One is go take a refreshing dip in that nice pool of water. The water is really acid, and btw real acid does look like water. No need to even bluff it. The second is join in a mutually beneficial venture instead of fighting us. The 3rd is asking a noble knight to give his horse to a beggar. Why would these be the book examples when you could say "If you believe me then do this thing that would get yourself killed if I'm lying"? It's not b/c everyone is smarter than the examples. Quite the opposite; the book examples require way more finesse.

If you're struggling then I think a good rule of thumb would be to say "Would the target even consider the action if his buddy told him to do it?" Maybe he'd give it a lot of thought and usually say no, but the key here is would it even be remotely reasonable to him? If he'd say "Haha no way you're full of it I'll die" in an instant even to his friend then I don't think that "makes the activity sound reasonable" and that's not a usable suggestion.

TL;DR: The counters to 1-7 are "Lol no" b/c suggestions have to sound reasonable.

[Deophaun]

But then again acid in d&d is literally, bubbling green goo is it not?
There is nothing that defines a general appearance for acid in D&D that I am aware. There may be specific descriptions in some adventures that say such, and there are some spells (e.g. acid storm) that do specify the acid's appearance as being similar to that description, but in general it only appears as bubbling green goo if the DM says it does. In which case, the given suggestion is probably unreasonable.

Actually, I'm leaning towards my player's interpretation because if you can't use it in combat, what's the point?
To use it out of combat, naturally. A standard Bluff check only gets you a round of compliance. So, the guard may let you pass due to indecision, but then he's going to go "Hey.... wait a minute..." and now you better run. A suggestion, meanwhile, convinces him to let you in, and he doesn't think anything of it until hours later (at which point, he probably won't say anything, because he's now an accomplice).

You can also use it in combat, although those examples maybe not be ones that are appropriate. However, suggesting to a thief that his partner is going to stiff him on the loot, and therefore he should prevent his partner from escaping could set up a three-way fight.

[Kid Jake]

To use it out of combat, naturally. A standard Bluff check only gets you a round of compliance. So, the guard may let you pass due to indecision, but then he's going to go "Hey.... wait a minute..." and now you better run. A suggestion, meanwhile, convinces him to let you in, and he doesn't think anything of it until hours later (at which point, he probably won't say anything, because he's now an accomplice).



"These aren't the droids you're looking for."

[Ashtagon]

"These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Pretty much this. Suggestion is the classic Jedi mind trick spell.

[Crake]

All these suggestions rely heavily on the example in the PHB: Telling a guy a pool of acid is actually water and that he should take a refreshing dip. The example changed the guy's awareness of the situation (what's hostile and what's passive) and made him perform a damaging act on himself.

I find people seem to assume that, in this example, the target is aware that the pool of acid is in fact acid. Considering there are many acids out there that are visually indistinguishable from water, suggesting that someone take a dip in said pool of acid would seem quite reasonable at a glance. I would never let the example suggestion work if the target was aware that the pool was actually acid. Suggestion doesn't change your awareness, just give you a push in a direction.

[Psyren]

I find people seem to assume that, in this example, the target is aware that the pool of acid is in fact acid. Considering there are many acids out there that are visually indistinguishable from water, suggesting that someone take a dip in said pool of acid would seem quite reasonable at a glance. I would never let the example suggestion work if the target was aware that the pool was actually acid. Suggestion doesn't change your awareness, just give you a push in a direction.

This. Sulfuric acid is both clear and odorless for instance.

[P.F.]

I'm pretty sure there is not a single real life acid or base that is green, unless it's some sort of weak acid.

Pickle juice. :smallwink:


Can't have a discussion with my player debating that acid fact because he would throw a massive fit.

Problem player. :smallannoyed:

[jedipotter]

A common example I've been allowing is "Your allies are going to stab you in the back! Kill them all and surrender to your pursuers if you don't want to die!"

The first problem is with the word ''ally''. What if the target has none? Or what if the target already knows they will stab him in the back? Take a group of thugs. Telling one ''your fellow thugs are going to stab you in the back'' is not news.

The ''kill them'' is also a problem as that makes twice as many foes for the target(his allies and the PCs). If if your ally is a untrustworthy backstabber, they are still an ally against the PCs. So attacking them makes no sense.

The ''surrender'' part only works if they know they will be safe. To ''surrender'' to a group of PCs does not make any sense.

I would do more ''Your companions here are going to betray you, flee and live to fight another day''.



As for the masseuse and magic surgeon, what if you add "apologize" next to "throw down your weapons"?


Nope.




Actually, I'm leaning towards my player's interpretation because if you can't use it in combat, what's the point?


It's more that you can't suggest someone be helpless in combat or do something they know is wrong. You want to suggest something to the target that they would want to do. A suggestion should be something that the subject might decide to do on his own if the circumstances were appropriate or if the subject shared the caster's point of view. You can word a suggestion so as to make the requested activity seem reasonable.



Though suggestion is much more for ''these are not the droids your looking for, move along''.