Anyone try Gestalt yet? Seems like it would be fun!

[Wolfsraine]

So anyone give Gestalt a try yet with 5e? I have 0 experience as a DM so I don't know the repercussions or how easy it is to accommodate for the increased power pc's would have.

The reason I ask is because I wanted to try to DM a game in the near future and I think characters with more options are always more fun. Also, I was going to try to make the world feel more like an anime as far as fights go. Darting around the battlefield etc. Just wanted to get some opinions on this.

Rule of cool would be the number one rule I would go by. As long as everyone is having fun anything goes really. With that said, are there any tips or anything to handle a more high powered group? Is just increasing HP of monsters enough? Do I need to take further measures to ensure that it isn't too easy, also to make sure that I don't just destroy my players either?

[Gnomes2169]

Well I've made a gestalt system that I'm going to be testing out/ running soon enough (check my signature for the link), but for the most part it should be relatively simple to do. The biggest thing you have to consider is Ability Score Increases and how you will handle them on the player side (with a minor look at multiclassing as well), and the effective character levels you are designing encounters around on the DM side.

There are a few strange things that can go on with ability score increases, since each class gets them at certain levels and we have classes that get them at off levels. Personally I took it as an opportunity to split gestalt into three different "tiers" of gestalt play; standard (you get ONE at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19, and any extras you would get from classes with bonus ability score increases like the fighter/ rogue are granted as normal), high-fantasy (you get TWO ASI's at levels 4, 8, 12 and 19, one from each side of the gestalt. At each level you get these ASI's, one ASI must be spent on stats and the other on feats. Bonus ASI's from fighter/ rogue are still just one bonus ASI) and mythic (Yeah, as silly powerful as you could want. You get an ASI and an epic boon at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19. The ASI's can be spent on whatever you want, and the epic boons can either be spent on epic boons, or on increasing an attribute that's already at 20 or higher by +2. Bonus ASI's from fighter/ rogue give two ASI's, one that must be spent on a feat and one that must be spent on increasing attributes). For most gestalt games standard should be the way to go (it has the least power creep, and should be easiest to find a balance with).

As for DM's building encounters, it really depends on what level the characters are (and in part what king of ASI system you are using). Level 1 gestalt characters, while built from slightly sturdier tissue paper than normal characters, still only have one hit die, 2 spell slots/ long rest (if a non-warlock full caster) or 1 spell/ short rest (if warlock) and one action, move and bonus action/ round, so at level 1 the challenge of encounters shouldn't be modified too much. However, after that point the challenge should slowly scale up with character level to account for the extra options/ silly power creep the characters will eventually gain. I have it capped out at CR +4 by level 16 as of now, but it will require a bit of testing at the higher levels to figure out if this is accurate or not.

[sabayn]

I am actually currently toying with it. My group is currently level 7 main class and they have a secondary class that is level 2. This is explained by story reasons as a past life as they drank of the waters of Styx. Also using story based leveling so we can take our time (mainly so I don't have to do exp budgets) Some stories will level up thier main class, whereas others will level the secondary. I didn't give them all the skills or saves. I did give them one save of their choice, and skill, weapon, and a tool. The main reason I did the whole gestalt thing was they were multiclassing like crazy and I was having a hard time getting a handle on the way they wanted to take their character. Also I wanted to give them a chance to respec. So far it is working pretty well, they really liked the way it was done, and solved a lot of min/maxing going on. Instead they are now focused on their character as a person instead of series of numbers.

[Theodoxus]

My next campaign is going to have different multiclassing options.

Standard multiclassing, out of the book.

Dual Classing, ala 2nd Ed, where you start with one class and at a later time, zero out your XP and adventure as a second class - gaining XP penalties if you use the old class Features, until the new class surpasses the old class's levels.

Gestalt - where you can pick any two, three or four classes from distinct class groups (warrior, priest, mage, knave). There's an inherent XP penalty associated with the choice; 15%, 30% and 45% respectively.

[Yorrin]

I am actually currently toying with it. My group is currently level 7 main class and they have a secondary class that is level 2. This is explained by story reasons as a past life as they drank of the waters of Styx. Also using story based leveling so we can take our time (mainly so I don't have to do exp budgets) Some stories will level up thier main class, whereas others will level the secondary. I didn't give them all the skills or saves. I did give them one save of their choice, and skill, weapon, and a tool. The main reason I did the whole gestalt thing was they were multiclassing like crazy and I was having a hard time getting a handle on the way they wanted to take their character. Also I wanted to give them a chance to respec. So far it is working pretty well, they really liked the way it was done, and solved a lot of min/maxing going on. Instead they are now focused on their character as a person instead of series of numbers.

This sounds brilliant! I ran a couple of gestalt campaigns back in 3.5, and have been trying to figure out if/how I want to do it in 5e. This might just be what I was looking for...

[Wolfsraine]

Well I've made a gestalt system that I'm going to be testing out/ running soon enough (check my signature for the link), but for the most part it should be relatively simple to do. The biggest thing you have to consider is Ability Score Increases and how you will handle them on the player side (with a minor look at multiclassing as well), and the effective character levels you are designing encounters around on the DM side.

There are a few strange things that can go on with ability score increases, since each class gets them at certain levels and we have classes that get them at off levels. Personally I took it as an opportunity to split gestalt into three different "tiers" of gestalt play; standard (you get ONE at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19, and any extras you would get from classes with bonus ability score increases like the fighter/ rogue are granted as normal), high-fantasy (you get TWO ASI's at levels 4, 8, 12 and 19, one from each side of the gestalt. At each level you get these ASI's, one ASI must be spent on stats and the other on feats. Bonus ASI's from fighter/ rogue are still just one bonus ASI) and mythic (Yeah, as silly powerful as you could want. You get an ASI and an epic boon at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19. The ASI's can be spent on whatever you want, and the epic boons can either be spent on epic boons, or on increasing an attribute that's already at 20 or higher by +2. Bonus ASI's from fighter/ rogue give two ASI's, one that must be spent on a feat and one that must be spent on increasing attributes). For most gestalt games standard should be the way to go (it has the least power creep, and should be easiest to find a balance with).

As for DM's building encounters, it really depends on what level the characters are (and in part what king of ASI system you are using). Level 1 gestalt characters, while built from slightly sturdier tissue paper than normal characters, still only have one hit die, 2 spell slots/ long rest (if a non-warlock full caster) or 1 spell/ short rest (if warlock) and one action, move and bonus action/ round, so at level 1 the challenge of encounters shouldn't be modified too much. However, after that point the challenge should slowly scale up with character level to account for the extra options/ silly power creep the characters will eventually gain. I have it capped out at CR +4 by level 16 as of now, but it will require a bit of testing at the higher levels to figure out if this is accurate or not.

Ah, very nice.

The way I was planning on doing it was to just limit it to 2 classes. You get to choose which saves you are proficient in from the 4 usually available and skills you choose from either of the classes you chose +1. So a rogue/fighter would get however many a rogue normally would get +1, or vice versa.

As for ASI, I would say you get one every four character levels and you would be able to get the ones that are off from that track, fighter for example or rogue I believe gets one at an odd level as well. So everyone would get ASI's at 4,8,12,16 and 20.

Extra attacks wouldn't stack. As for spells, might need to work something out on that. If someone wants to go wiz/sorc just seems like a pain for them to track their wizard and sorcs slots and spells seperatly. Perhaps just fuse it together into a mega list with a few more slots than normal. Either way I don't think this will come up in my group, the majority of them will mix martial with caster or martial with martial.

My thinking is that even though they are 2 classes, the action economy is the same. They aren't getting to do a million things a turn.

Anyway, I'm excited to do this!

[Gnomes2169]

Ah, very nice.

The way I was planning on doing it was to just limit it to 2 classes. You get to choose which saves you are proficient in from the 4 usually available and skills you choose from either of the classes you chose +1. So a rogue/fighter would get however many a rogue normally would get +1, or vice versa.

As for ASI, I would say you get one every four character levels and you would be able to get the ones that are off from that track, fighter for example or rogue I believe gets one at an odd level as well. So everyone would get ASI's at 4,8,12,16 and 20.

Extra attacks wouldn't stack. As for spells, might need to work something out on that. If someone wants to go wiz/sorc just seems like a pain for them to track their wizard and sorcs slots and spells seperatly. Perhaps just fuse it together into a mega list with a few more slots than normal. Either way I don't think this will come up in my group, the majority of them will mix martial with caster or martial with martial.

My thinking is that even though they are 2 classes, the action economy is the same. They aren't getting to do a million things a turn.

Anyway, I'm excited to do this!

These are the things I tried to cover in the thread (and a few more besides), so really... check out the link. The only thing I seem to have forgotten from a spellcasting standpoint is if you have known spells (sorc, bard, ranger, warlock, eldrich knight and arcane trickster) and a prepared spellcasting class.

I should also probably change the overpowered abomination having two prepared casters is right now (you have your level+the revelent casting stat on both sides) to having a smaller total over all (your level+both spellcasting stats as total #of spells prepared). I would suggest you do the same, just to make things easier for yourself and your players (a max of 30 exchangable spells vs 50 over all).

I would recommend against giving additional spell slots, or at least limiting it to only +1 slot at each level below 7'th. 7'th, 8'th and 9'th level slots are incredibly potent, and are purposefully left limited to try and keep some balance between classes. Even in a gestalt this will remain true, so I recommend letting the number of options be what makes your gestalt casters more powerful, without really increasing the number of times you can use them.

Something else that might be important, a few combos might be super MAD (paladin// wizard, I'm looking at you) and if you are using the point buy system instead of rolling, perhaps increasing the point buy to 34 to help such combos should be something you look into. If you use the rollinh method, then 4d6b3 7 times, drop the lowest should be something else you look into.

[silveralen]

I'm currently toying with it as a full campaign where everyone is gestalt, though I'm unsure what route to take in regards to certain features. I'm leaning towards having everything stack, including prof (though I'm going to even out the progression so it doesn't jump two at a time).

Of course, spellcasting is the odd ball, I'm leaning towards seperate spell tracks for each half, with some weirdness if you multiclass. So... a sorcerer/bard gestalt levels up to sorcerer/paladin. The sorcerer spell track advances as normal, the bard spell track now advances as if it were a normal bard/paladin multiclass. Or I might just ignore the normal MC method and have each class track spell slots like 3e.

The other option is acquiring higher level spell slots which can be used to cast lower level spells, which seems problematic. For a few reasons, not in the least how they acquire new slots after 10 (starts all over on the MC spell slot table, gaining more low level usages?) I'd probably disallow duel full caster gestalts if I did this.

[Icewraith]

I don't see much of a problem with dual full caster gestalts, since if you go by the table you wouldn't get any more usable spell slots and the action economy isn't wide open to certain casters like it was in 3.5. Or rather, if you think a level 20 sor/wiz gestalt would have two tables worth of spell slots, cap slot advancement at character level, not total class level using the multiclassing rules. Characters still prepare or choose spells known as if they had the slots of their individual class level. (An Eldritch knight 20//Arcane Trickster 20 has level 14 spell slots but picks spells known as if they were a single classed EK (off the EK table) and At (off the AT table).) (A wizard 20//Warlock 11 Sorcerer 9 has level 20 spell slots, selects spells prepared as a level 20 wizard, and selects spells known as a level 11 warlock and level 9 Sorcerer, and has spell points as a level 9 sorcerer)

(Hmm... may need to have some special rules for Warlock since their slots do stack with normal spellcasting unlike all other casters. Alternatively you could have dual casters gain extra spell slots (but not invocations, also possibly not the 6th-9th abilities the Warlock gets) on their second side as if they were a warlock of that side's level using the normal multiclassing rules, so dual casters would gain some actual endurance (5 extra spell slots) but still not have all of their spell slots doubled)

(Alternatively, you could treat a full caster/warlock, the 6th-9th one shot abilities turn into spells known, changeable under the normal warlock rules, but are powered by the normal spell slots instead of being usable separately. Warlock/half casters or lower gain those abilities at their full power).

If using the normal point buy there shouldn't be an issue with two sets of ASIs (your primary stat can't go higher than 20 anyways and anyone who wants to gish will need the help) and fixing them at certain levels removes one of the major drawbacks to multiclassing. You could also specify that you can't boost the same stat more than once every four levels, which prevents people running around with 20 stats at level four.

Skills sort of handle themselves and gestalt characters really do need both sets of skill points to adequately fulfill both class archetypes. (Also, you still only get one background for your character). The guy who rolls bard/rogue was just going to blow feats on skills until he had them all anyways.

So a gestalt character has more saves (but not numerically better on any single save than a regular character with proficiency) and more skills (again, not numerically better than a regular character with proficiency). Melee character damage output increases somewhat with level but you still need eleven levels of fighter to get a baseline third attack from your action.

As long as you don't double proficiency bonuses (they're tracked by character level, not class level for a reason), all the math remains intact, with the possible exception of HP. Characters will either have more damage output or will be more likely to have the right spell for the job available, so overall damage output will go up. You could either use more monsters in a combat to compensate or add 20-50% to the HP of boss monsters you want to stick around for a while.