How Should I Build a Necromancer of Nethys?

[5w337x7007h]

My main goal is to make a necromancer that would make even Pharasma herself question whether or not the undead truely deserve nothing but destruction.

I do not intend to summon undead unless absolutely necessary, and I'll probably benefit from Summon Monster spells and the skeleton summoner feat. I know that clerics can make amazing necromancers as well as wizards, and some sorcerers. Alchemists are kinda dull because they can't control their undead without proper multi-classing.

Is there any way I could get some help on this build? I'm not sure where to start, immediately, but I've been looking at Clerics and their ability to channel energy and spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

[ghanjrho]

Short answer? You don't. Pharasmirans do not do undead. Period. End of story. Big P even alters the Death domain for her clerics to remove spells that make undead.

By creating undead, you're spitting in the face of three of her four purviews; birth(making a tortured reflection of life), death(denying the dead rest) and fate(preventing them from being judged). Also, the goddess of the undead, Urgathoa, is one of two gods, that Pharasma does not get along with. The other is Rovagug.

[Psyren]

As stated, Pharasma would never agree to this. Inner Sea Gods:


Though she allows resurrection, the Lady of Graves opposes undeath as a desecration of the memory of the flesh and a corruption of a soul's path on its journey to her judgment. She encourages her followers to hunt undead, as the souls of the destroyed undead will then reach her for judgment.


Pharasmin inquisitors hunt down the undead and those who seek to create such monstrosities, but all priests have a solemn duty to oppose such abominations when they find them. Creating undead is forbidden, and controlling existing undead is frowned upon, even by evil members of the faith.

She does have so-called "white necromancers" among her clergy, but these are the folks that focus on everything in that school of magic except animating undead, and using control magic only very sparingly (as above.)

[5w337x7007h]

I imagine somebody has to be fine with using an undead as a shield/fodder in a dire situation, it bites the dust, and you spared yourself the hit points.

And "White" Necromancer is what I'm thinking of, in a sense. The immortal souls of the character's ancestors or warriors who died and wish to fight on, inhabiting the corpses for the purposes of self-defense against greater threats.

Is there any way I could build a Necromancer that would follow the faith of the Priests of Rathma from the Diablo Universe?

[ghanjrho]

The problem is that that runs counter to the Golarion cosmology, where undead are aberrations in the cycle. Person is born, lives, dies, is sent to an alignment/religion satisfying afterlife, becomes one with the Outer Plane, is swallowed by the Maelstrom, and finally recreated in the Positive Energy Plane, then born once more.

The problem here is that you're trying to adapt a concept from one setting to another. Not that that is in itself a bad idea, but sometimes you have to accept that things run at cross purposes. As a Pharasmiran cleric, your job would be to release your ancestors to be judged at The Spire, not work to keep them on the Prime Material.

You're essentially asking "how can I make a slaver Caydenite", or "how can I make an actual pacifist Gorumite"; Pharasma's clerics who make undead for any reason get busy signals when they pray the next morning. And every morning thereafter. You can assume control of undead, yes. Provided you then return them to their rest as soon as the steel stops ringing, because the only reason you were that close to a vile perverter of the restful dead was to send him to be judged by the Lady.

I really don't mean to be rude, or dismissive. I find the followers of Rathma to be interesting characters. But Golarion and the world of Diablo work on two very different source codes.

[5w337x7007h]

I would basically be striving to balance the control over life and death in an effort to maintain a balance in the material world, preventing any one alignment from holding sway over the material plane.

I'm not trying to pervert the cycle or anything like that, but a balance must be upheld to prevent any outside plane from holding sway over the material plane. It is not some playground for gods, but a place made for the mortals that inhabit it. Nethys is a prime example! He became a god through sheer will and knowledge! It drove the god king insane and he became an epitome of this belief! Proof that the material plane cannot handle the sway of any one deity or alignment! The balance must be kept or everything is lost!!!
(sorry random character rant, and kinda weird how I channeled my character like that..)

I kinda wish the Summon Undead spells still existed because the Skeleton Summoning feat sucks. It's a terrible nerf of what could make a formidable necromancer without the demand for bodies or onyx, and the undead created by such spells last 1 round/level.

[avr]

If you want to confuse Pharasmirans take Craft Construct and make golems which look like undead. Any actual making undead will remove their confusion. Remember: Pharasma is true neutral, not good. Doing good deeds will not allay their anger.

If you want to be a good guy and still make undead, maybe be a wizard and take the Spirit Binder archetype from the familiar folio. Your familiar now has the spirit of your loved one bound to it (though not actually undead). You're required to have access to necromancy, which is a sort of justification for using it OOC at least. IC you have at least one example of doing necromancy which was not a bad thing.

[avr]

Basically, in Golarion you can make undead and think you're doing good (or preserving a balance, whatever), but OOC you just have to accept that your character is the one in the wrong.

[5w337x7007h]

So would it be more beneficial to make a Necromancer of Nethys?

[avr]

Folllowers of Nethys would be a lot more relaxed on the subject on average, yes.

[ghanjrho]

So would it be more beneficial to make a Necromancer of Nethys?

Nethys would get an enormous kick out of a mortal using a tool for destruction to create; using decay to preserve. Just remember that Nethysians are more likely to be Arcane than Divine. Not to say there aren't Nethysian clerics, but the punk down the street who has mastered a cantrip outranks a cleric20

[5w337x7007h]

So how would I go about making this work? Maybe the Arcanist class, because of it's versatility granted by exploits?

I know that I'd gain more benefit from using BFC and using spells in an abstract manner.

[5w337x7007h]

Would this work? Destroy a large, solid structure, put down a nice red x where the structure used to be, have a single piece or something you can focus on, and wait for an enemy to get in that square. Ready Make Whole as you wait. As soon as they get into the square, you cast Make Whole, focusing on the piece and you entomb the poor sap inside the structure, either crushing him/her to death, or dealing a bunch of crushing damage while still trapping the victim in the structure.

[avr]

Make whole takes 10 minutes to cast so you can't ready it, no. You can only ready standard, move, swift or free actions.

I'd go with the wizard with the spirit binder archetype (& the necromancy arcane school) as described above, but an arcanist would do the job too. You want either the school savant (necromancy) or maybe the blood arcanist (undead) archetype of course. The necromancy school gives you more control over the undead, the undead bloodline lets you dig up weird mind affecting spells to use on them.

The school understanding exploit could work, but you'll burn through arcane reservoir points to make it act at your full level. You could possibly go with the twilight sage archetype instead and this exploit ... How do you feel about killing livestock to be able to command undead?

Make sure you get Use Magic Device, because there are a few cleric spells (e.g. Desecrate) which you probably will want to have available at some point.

[Psyren]

Nethys would absolutely allow you to animate undead. You'd still be evil and still have to worry about Sarenrites, Pharasmins, psychopomps etc. coming after you, but you wouldn't get kicked out of his church.


Basically, in Golarion you can make undead and think you're doing good (or preserving a balance, whatever), but OOC you just have to accept that your character is the one in the wrong.

This. In some ways it's even clearer than in 3.5 that this type of necromancy is capital-E Evil.

[5w337x7007h]

I guess I'm just disheartened by the fact that I can't, by rules, create undead, or at least control them, without looking evil in the process.

My main problem is the group. Full of undead hating pharasman fools! They don't understand the practical applications that you can use the undead for. Self-defense, manual labor, and other miscellaneous things. It allows for the living to further their talents and expand their horizons. They will be able to choose a path for themselves, noone would be forced into a labor that wouldn't suit them.

[Callin]

I guess I'm just disheartened by the fact that I can't, by rules, create undead, or at least control them, without looking evil in the process.

My main problem is the group. Full of undead hating pharasman fools! They don't understand the practical applications that you can use the undead for. Self-defense, manual labor, and other miscellaneous things. It allows for the living to further their talents and expand their horizons. They will be able to choose a path for themselves, noone would be forced into a labor that wouldn't suit them.

That right there is just asking for in group conflict. OOC are they ok with you wanting to persue this type of character?

[5w337x7007h]

If I build a Nethysian Necromancer, I'm going to need to be completely subversive with the group and the popular faith of the city. Maybe turn the city against the Pharasmans? Trick everyone into believing that the current clergy is full of betrayers and blasphemers?

Start with a simple rumor that someone in the clergy is secretly practicing with undeath. That'd lead to suspicion within the clergy, and it'll build from there!

[5w337x7007h]

That right there is just asking for in group conflict. OOC are they ok with you wanting to persue this type of character?

I'll have to ask the group OOC if they're fine with me preparing a backup that subversively practices necromancy. Though I'd probably have to minimize the overwhelming obviousness and go with a single undead that I can dress up, quite well, to look like a simple-minded idiot of a soldier. Though I'd have to find a suitable candidate that would be 'willing' to go with my idea.

[Psyren]

I guess I'm just disheartened by the fact that I can't, by rules, create undead, or at least control them, without looking evil in the process.

Again, if your DM says you're fine then you're fine. Not to belabor any points, but we're not the ones you need to be convincing here... and you're not really going to find a Paizo/Golarion source that says "animating undead is a-okay!"

[5w337x7007h]

I'm not worried with convincing my GM, I'm worried about how I should go about building a Necromancer that is good at what he does as well as hiding the truth.

[Psyren]

I'm not worried with convincing my GM, I'm worried about how I should go about building a Necromancer that is good at what he does as well as hiding the truth.

Er.... how do you plan on hiding anything from the GM? :smallconfused:

[avr]

If you want to hide what you're doing the Sculpt Corpse or Youthful Appearance spells may stop people realising that you've reanimated Aunt May.

Alternately you could go with a different character class - Oracle with the Juju mystery, and considering what you're doing likely the Haunted curse - and people you charm look as dead as those you reanimate which may confuse the issue.

If your DM's OK with it you could ask for the pre-errata version of that mystery which allows you to create non-evil undead. ("Necromancy spells that create undead lose the evil descriptor when you cast them. Mindless undead created by your magic are of neutral alignment, while thinking undead possess your alignment. " - removed precisely because it didn't fit Golarion.)

[Coidzor]

I guess I'm just disheartened by the fact that I can't, by rules, create undead, or at least control them, without looking evil in the process.

My main problem is the group. Full of undead hating pharasman fools! They don't understand the practical applications that you can use the undead for. Self-defense, manual labor, and other miscellaneous things. It allows for the living to further their talents and expand their horizons. They will be able to choose a path for themselves, noone would be forced into a labor that wouldn't suit them.

Of course not, it doesn't really feel like a fantasy kitchen sink unless there's very conspicuous things that you can't do in it. No, never, no not even then. :smallamused:

Ahh, RPG Groups. Can't live with them, can't play without 'em.


I'm not worried with convincing my GM, I'm worried about how I should go about building a Necromancer that is good at what he does as well as hiding the truth.

I'm sorry, what? Are you trying to sneak this past your GM or is he both simultaneously on board with the idea but not throwing you a ****ing bone to actually make it possible? :smallconfused:

[5w337x7007h]

Let me rephrase that, I'm not worried about convincing my GM, because if my GM doesn't think it's a good idea for this campaign, I can just hold onto the build for later. I don't hide my intentions from my GMs. But considering how well my Life Oracle is doing right now, and how pharasman-extremist the group tengu rogue is, I don't need to have this character on the spot. I just felt challenged when the Tengu player stated he'd outright kill a character for even mentioning using the undead, so I'd want to shove it right under his black beak and see how long it takes for his character to notice, all the while planning on how best to make the Tengu disappear if necessary. A big fish told me that they taste just like chicken.
(my tengu, in another campaign, got eaten by a rather large gar)

[thematgreen]

Let me rephrase that, I'm not worried about convincing my GM, because if my GM doesn't think it's a good idea for this campaign, I can just hold onto the build for later. I don't hide my intentions from my GMs. But considering how well my Life Oracle is doing right now, and how pharasman-extremist the group tengu rogue is, I don't need to have this character on the spot. I just felt challenged when the Tengu player stated he'd outright kill a character for even mentioning using the undead, so I'd want to shove it right under his black beak and see how long it takes for his character to notice, all the while planning on how best to make the Tengu disappear if necessary. A big fish told me that they taste just like chicken.
(my tengu, in another campaign, got eaten by a rather large gar)

I play a necromancer who works a little differently. He literally just goes around laying the dead to rest. If they are controlled somehow he ursurps that control and then lays them to rest. The longest he ever controlled a group of the undead was three days, and that was just a force march back to their ancestral grounds, where he laid them to rest. He doesn't use the undead to fight or for any task, he doesn't do anything but lay them to rest (Barring one special incident that was allowed by the gods).

At the beginning of the campaign our Paladin hated him for being a Necromancer, but now has to respect the fact that he is doing good in the world by using an "evil" class for good.

Maybe do something that way.