Magic item shop

[Spacehamster]

So in our setting I'm going with it that magic items are quite rare but we are going to go against the rule that there is no magic item shops, they will exist in major cities, think the adventurers mart in baldurs gate 2. I'm afb atm but wondering what pricing you would see as fair for the 19 in a stat items? A pair of 19 STR gloves is prob first magic item my char will try to get his hands on. :)

[Madfellow]

Let's see... Gauntlets of Ogre Power are Uncommon, so they should cost somewhere between 100 and 500gp.

[Thrathgnar]

There are listings in the DMG for magic item prices. If I recall correctly, its 100 for common, 500 for uncommon, 5000 for rare, 50,000 for very rare, and something for legendary

The problem with the gauntlets is that they prevent the player from getting to 20, so they are forever stuck at that +4

[Madfellow]

The problem with the gauntlets is that they prevent the player from getting to 20, so they are forever stuck at that +4

The gauntlets don't prevent you from going higher than 19, they just prevent you from going lower. He can still get to 20 if he wants, but I don't really think he'd need to. With his Strength score basically covered, he could focus on other ability scores and/or just start picking up feats.

[Thrathgnar]

The gauntlets don't prevent you from going higher than 19, they just prevent you from going lower. He can still get to 20 if he wants, but I don't really think he'd need to. With his Strength score basically covered, he could focus on other ability scores and/or just start picking up feats.

Ohhhh thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression that they capped out at 19

[Madfellow]

Ohhhh thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression that they capped out at 19

Here to help. :smallsmile:

[CapnZapp]

You really should glance at the d20 prices first, since the 5E method of basing prices on rarity rather than utility is a pure crapshoot at best and horribly broken at worst.

In 3E Gauntlets of Ogre Power give you +2 Strength and costs 4000 gold.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the benefit in 5E is about the same (i.e. a character with 17 Strength getting +2), which suggests 100-500 gold is way too cheap.

A few arguments and their counterpoints:
Q My warrior already has 19 Strength (or higher) and thus gains +0. Your price is too high!
A Why then take this item? Pricing it for somebody gaining +0 doesn't make sense.

Q My wizard has 8 Strength and thus gains +11! Your price is too low!
A While the price for a general +11 item should certainly be higher (read "artifact priceless") the actual utility for your wizard is limited. To, say, about a general +2 bonus...

Q You don't get the same amount of gold in 5E as in 3E. Any comparison is off!
A Actually, I believe the differences are relatively minor. Certainly small enough that a number such as "4000" can be compared to "100" with you drawing the conclusion "100 gp is probably way too cheap".

Q. But 4000 gp still feels very expensive!
A. Actually, because of bounded accuracy a +2 bonus should be more valuable in 5E than in 3E, so you could probably set a higher price in 5E than in 3E...! But, since the exchange rate between editions isn't precisely known, I'm going with the easiest rate to remember, that is 1:1 :)

Remember, any warrior-type character who feels 4000 gp is too high is welcome to not buy these gauntlets. They're not made for you anyway. For a medium-level wizard 4000 gp will feel like a bargain!

Here's a SRD link:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gauntletsofOgrePower

[Spacehamster]

I think putting the price at around 1500-2000 sounds right since mostly these items will be used to get bit higher on a save or better at a proficiency and mostly not for your main stat that you will max out the normal way.

[Kryx]

Q You don't get the same amount of gold in 5E as in 3E. Any comparison is off!
A Actually, I believe the differences are relatively minor. Certainly small enough that a number such as "4000" can be compared to "100" with you drawing the conclusion "100 gp is probably way too cheap".

The gold, based on Deconstructing 5e: Typical wealth by level (http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2r8kci/deconstructing_5e_typical_wealth_by_level/), is actually higher than 3.5 at top tiers, but lower at low/mid tiers. This is obviously not including selling magic items.

In my 5e conversion of RotRL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391603-Rise-of-The-Runelords-(RotRL)-Converted-to-D-amp-D-5e-(WIP)) I found that PF's treasure is nearly exact for what the 5e's expected WBL up to lvl 11. Though I doubt it will continue after that.

[TrollCapAmerica]

You know its funny.I started playing D&D with 1st/2nd ed.Back then they also had contradictory rules on how there should never be magic items shops while giving you the GP value of all magic items.The reason for this was the shoddy "Nobody would DARE let go of a magic item until you pried it from their cold dead hands" motif they tried to create. This was actually MUCH more focused on trying to keep PCs from sharing magic items ["Not being greedy enough is bad RPing.LOSER EXP NAO"] and to make sure an NPC wouldnt part with a single scroll if it would save your life.Magic item shops were also frowned upon because of the ever popular murderhobo style and a whole shop full of magical gear would be a ridiculous gain in power and EXP once the CN Fighter/Thief in the party decided he wanted to gain a couple levels and backstabbed the guy running the place

and yet in the right circumstances with the right level of security theres no reason somebody powerful enough and with the right connections couldnt sell magical gear especially stuff that high level PCs might not have as much need for

In 3.5 we actually did the same thing.Sure the rules supported Magic shops more but honestly the only way you could reliably pull this concept off was if somebody was powerful well connected and paranoid enough to protect himself from thieves.

I dont think im gonna do it any different in 5E either.Its gonna be a luxury trade but certainly not impossible to find

[DanyBallon]

You know its funny.I started playing D&D with 1st/2nd ed.Back then they also had contradictory rules on how there should never be magic items shops while giving you the GP value of all magic items.The reason for this was the shoddy "Nobody would DARE let go of a magic item until you pried it from their cold dead hands" motif they tried to create...

Actually the reason for an gp value was that in 2e, at least, thieves would gain xp based on the value of treasure found. So if a magic item x is worth 5000gp, that value would be add to the value of treasure the thief found.

[hymer]

Actually the reason for an gp value was that in 2e, at least, thieves would gain xp based on the value of treasure found. So if a magic item x is worth 5000gp, that value would be add to the value of treasure the thief found.

Well, magical items had an XP value, not a GP value. I believe (because the 2nd edition DMG says so) that the XP value is relevant for crafting magical items. It's the amount gained for making such an item.

[DanyBallon]

Well, magical items had an XP value, not a GP value. I believe (because the 2nd edition DMG says so) that the XP value is relevant for crafting magical items. It's the amount gained for making such an item.

They had both. As you said, the XP value was for crafting.

[CrusaderJoe]

One way to make a magic mart is not to have it be a typical "mart".

Have it be more of a bartering shop. The store has one of each item you wish to give the player access to (one set of Ogre Gloves). You can pay in gold for the expendible stuff such as scrolls and potions but if you want the Wand of Cure Wounds.... Well you better give the store something in return that they will be happy to trade you for.

This allows you to not be forced to give gold to tour players if you don't want to.

Also, and here is the best part, the Magic-Barter-Mart (TM) will be a great place to get side quests.

"For the gauntlets of ogre power... There is a prismatic gem in the far end of the cave of no return, if you bring it to me I will trade you for the gauntlets. I have a contact that wishes to have it for their research, but I'm not one to go exploring around places called " the cave of no return".

[kaoskonfety]

Taking a quick glance at the list the provided purchase prices seem in the right ballpark for a world largely saturated in magic,
Where a King can be *expected* to have and number of uncommon and a few rare items and may have more (whose rule may in fact be cemented by a legendary or 2).
Strong as an ogre? 500 gp? More than a peasant will every see, but any ranking noble or wealthy merchant who wants them can get them? seems ok - will it make sense when we look at the economics? Well no. Has it ever?
Either hand wave it away "this doesn't mess up the medieval setting cause it doesn't" - or highlight the gap this magic widens between the rich and poor - if every landed knight can afford/demand/commission Adamant armour, a sword that lights on fire and gauntlets of ogre power... exercise for the reader at this point - we would differ in detail I assume. But things would be a bit weird.

In a setting where there are in total, say, one of each of the non-expendable uncommon items, 12 from the rare list and 3 of legendary power, most of them lost in the deep caves and buried in Ancient dragon hordes? The only set of gauntlets of Ogre power that exist could be bought, they don't make you immortal or anything, but it's a bit of a sellers market "several thousands of gold" seems more reasonable and "a closed auction where the bidding starts at several thousands of gold" would be fine. Or trade them to the crown for a knighthood, family crest, land and vassals. You know, whatever you prefer.

"Bauldur's Gate item shop" seems to land in the "magical common" end spectrum without the mass production implied, so take the prices in the DMG as the *base* price and assume a few things:
- Maintaining a magic item shop is EXPENSIVE - between security on items the size of your thumb that could purchase several homes, guards to stop street gangs rushing the place and whatever taxes are levied by the town/king/guild/whatever else
- the price in the DMG is more or less what the merchant paid for it (they are not in fact personally producing the stuff, they have a supplier or are a pawn shop)
- the merchant wants to get rich(er)
- the merchant is loosing some stock to shoplifting, bandits and similar
- they will never have anything even vaguely reliably available over "uncommon", random rolling is good for this (this would be both due to added risk stocking a 50,000 GP item that can level houses and the near impossibility of someone showing up with that kind of coin/value in trade)
I'd be inclined to set it around 1000 to 5000 for uncommon items, anything that would move in anything close to *bulk* (items useful to most classes/characters, sets of feather tokens, bags of holding, healing potions) would be cheaper with specialized items (i.e. optimization equipment for specialists) at the high end.
Gauntlets of Ogre power come across as somewhere in the optimization end (as most adventurers can do without, and the specialist that wants it REALLY wants it) 3000-4000? Say, the price is showing at 5000 (4999.99) and the shop keep will go down to 3000 if pushed/bargained with.

[Callin]

We did 1,000 for Uncommon, 10,000 for Rare, so on and so forth doubling the price in the DMG and ending at 1 million for Legendary Items. Its worked out fine for the group so far. We each have all 3 Attunement slots filled with 1 or 2 other items. This is with the items that the Rise of Tiamat Adventure is giving us.

[Louro]

1000 for uncommon?
So an uncommon magical item is worth 20 draft horses, or 2 and a half warhorses.

[CrusaderJoe]

1000 for uncommon?
So an uncommon magical item is worth 20 draft horses, or 2 and a half warhorses.

I tend to think that most players and DMs severely overvalue magic items.

This is a game in which you don't need them, one in which the game was actually balanced (90% of the time) around not having said magic items.

So instead of raising the price based on player *want* keep the prices low based on player *need*.

I think basing the price on *want* instead of *need* is kinda of a jerk DM move for this edition. Like you are raising the price and dangling the carrot on a string...

[Louro]

Do they need it?
No.
Do they want it?
No. (How could you want something you don't even happen to know that exists?)

Magic stuff should be related to treasure and quest plots IMO. Maybe some minor items along with potions and scrolls on the adventurer shop, but nothing above that.