Does this XP farm work? (for crafting)

[RoboEmperor]

I'm trying to open a magic shop with my wizard. As you all probably know, crafting takes a massive bite out of your XP. So... here's my solution!

1. Build the best construct I can and order it to protect me.
2. Enslave the strongest living creature you and your construct can kill
3. Order it to try its absolute best to kill you until it's knocked unconscious
4. Your 1st construct will protect you and attack the enslaved creature with non lethal damage only, and you'll use your spells to help it win.
5. After the creature is knocked unconscious, you get its full CR XP
6. Heal everyone
7. Repeat 3-6 until you are just about to level up
8. Use the XP to build and sell constructs, magic scrolls, wondrous items, etc.

Before I do this in game, I'd like someone to proofread my plan. Is there a problem? :D

Oh and by the way, this is a semi-retired character, which means the current campaign is finished and she's settling down until the next world ending chain of events start, which is probably in 10ish years. Good thing she's a necropolitan cause they don't age, or die from old age, unless I'm mistaken.

edit: Made some corrections due to flaws pointed out by people. This is why I post in this forum before executing my plans!

[Hamste]

Constructs are immune to non-lethal and are destroyed if below 0 hitpoints. Same thing with undead.

[Psyren]

Without even going into the thematic problems with this idea (you can't really "farm" XP in D&D, since a farmable foe is one that is not challenging by definition, and therefore you won't earn any), this particular plan won't work because constructs are immune to nonlethal damage and therefore your win condition won't ever trigger.

[DrMike105]

Unfortunately, constructs are immune to non-lethal damage.

Edit: swordsaged

[Karl Aegis]

Constructs are not subject to nonlethal damage. It's generally more efficient to have a constant stream of Inevitables trying to kill you rather than building the constructs yourself. A Necropolitan Wizard should have no trouble getting Inevitables after their head.

[thethird]

Is this at any point a challenge for your character?

If yes it has a Challenge Rating (which might or might not be equal to the Challenge Rating of the golem under your character's control attacking your character), if no it doesn't have a Challenge Rating.

If you answer the question with a yes. The next step would be to decide how likely it is for your character to die, and how difficult it is for your character to overcome the challenge to actually tune how much XP your character gets for defeating a construct under his/her control.

[Ashtagon]

No, because there is no risk, and the character knows there is no risk. No risk, no reward.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, thanks for pointing the immunity to nonlethal damage out. Changed 2nd construct to enslaved creature.

There is a danger. You enslave a balor and tell it to kill you, it's gonna be super dangerous. It's just that I'm stronger and win. Not that I'll be enslaving a balor since this character is level 14.

If I told the balor to "almost" kill me, then you'd be right, no danger. But in this case if me or my construct **** up, I die for reals so...

Hey, if you go into a dungeon with a greater stone golem and he bashes every single creature's head open by himself, I get full XP since his CR is factored into my CR since I made him.

What if you only do nonlethal damage in the entire dungeon, and comeback at a later day again and again and again?

What if you somehow trap every creature in that dungeon so they can't ever escape and only wait the impending greater stone golem to bash them again?

No different than that scenario me thinks :D

[thethird]

I guess the question is: is there any chance of dying?

If the answer is yes: how big is the chance of dying?

That's what would be needed to acquire XP and determine how much XP.

[darksolitaire]

Farming xp? Wait, are we talking pen&paper D&D or some computer game?

[RoboEmperor]

I guess the question is: is there any chance of dying?

If the answer is yes: how big is the chance of dying?

That's what would be needed to acquire XP and determine how much XP.

The same chance of dying if I found the creature in the wild and decided to kill it. Or if it found me and tried to kill me. I mean, it will be right? You order it to kill me, it's gonna be equally difficult no? The enslavement is in place just so that he can't go anywhere.

What if I locked him in a giant cage without any enslavement magic, enter the cage myself with my golem and just beat the **** out of him?


Farming xp? Wait, are we talking pen&paper D&D or some computer game?

We're talking about a PC character wanting to craft and sell magical goods as a living D:

In pathfinder it doesn't matter because there is no XP cost :D. This is actually my attempt to port this pathfinder shopkeeper wizard into a 3.5 game.

In 3.5 there's that... super good feeling potion thingy that substitutes 2xp for item crafting, and I really don't like that farm :(

[Amphetryon]

Is there a reason the Pathfinder 'shopkeeper wizard' can't be mechanically expressed as an artificer in 3.5?

[RoboEmperor]

Is there a reason the Pathfinder 'shopkeeper wizard' can't be mechanically expressed as an artificer in 3.5?

1. It's not a wizard D:<. I like my combat role during adventures.
2. Can YOU express it as an artificer? o_O. It's my knowledge that artificers still need XP to craft, and in order to replenish their craft-only-XP they need to buy magical items from shops and destroy it, resulting in a whopping 0 profit.

[Necroticplague]

1. It's not a wizard D:<. I like my combat role during adventures.
2. Can YOU express it as an artificer? o_O. It's my knowledge that artificers still need XP to craft, and in order to replenish their craft-only-XP they need to buy magical items from shops and destroy it, resulting in a whopping 0 profit.

Or you can destroy magic items your party doesn't want. They also do have a craft reserve at every level, which helps to a degree.

[Deophaun]

I'm trying to open a magic shop with my wizard. As you all probably know, crafting takes a massive bite out of your XP. So... here's my solution!

1. Build the best construct I can and order it to protect me.
2. Enslave the strongest living creature you and your construct can kill
Congratulations. You have overcome the opponent. Here is your XP.


3. Order it to try its absolute best to kill you until it's knocked unconscious
4. Your 1st construct will protect you and attack the enslaved creature with non lethal damage only, and you'll use your spells to help it win.
5. After the creature is knocked unconscious, you get its full CR XP
Nope. You already earned that at step 2.

[RoboEmperor]

Or you can destroy magic items your party doesn't want. They also do have a craft reserve at every level, which helps to a degree.

That requires adventuring. So not a full-time shopkeeper. Maybe part-time, you know, you adventure whenever your reserves run out but I'm talking about the magical equivalent of a blacksmith. 0 adventuring, only crafted goods, at least until the world-ending chain of events start.

It always bothers me that there's an infinite supply of magical scrolls in shops but... how do they endlessly supply it if the wizard crafting it is gonna run out of xp?



Nope. You already earned that at step 2.

Can you give post #8 a look? :D. Thing about clearing a dungeon with only non-lethal damage over and over again.

[goto124]

Farming xp? Wait, are we talking pen&paper D&D or some computer game?

I was wondering about that. In TTRPGs don't you gain EXP for 'overcoming challenges' and... well, just playing the game as per normal? Since the DM gives out the EXP when required? Which removes the need to grind for EXP (or anything, really)?

[thethird]

The same chance of dying if I found the creature in the wild and decided to kill it. Or if it found me and tried to kill me. I mean, it will be right? You order it to kill me, it's gonna be equally difficult no? The enslavement is in place just so that he can't go anywhere.

What if I locked him in a giant cage without any enslavement magic, enter the cage myself with my golem and just beat the **** out of him?

The same two questions would apply.

I'm a commoner 1 (even if I wish I was an expert)

I have a cat

If I enter a cage (warning, not a bathtube) with the cat will I gain XP?

---


1. It's not a wizard D:<. I like my combat role during adventures.
2. Can YOU express it as an artificer? o_O. It's my knowledge that artificers still need XP to craft, and in order to replenish their craft-only-XP they need to buy magical items from shops and destroy it, resulting in a whopping 0 profit.

You can use so many XP cost reducers that you are making a whopping [insert unreasonable high finite number] profit.

My preferred method of XP abuse for crafting though is something that cannot be done as a necropolitan. But if you wish to know it involves negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) and psionic restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/restorationPsionic.htm).

[RoboEmperor]

Sigh... there is like 100% opposition. I guess I'll go back to enslaving an army of outsiders with divine spell capability, and spamming distilled joy forever...

[Deophaun]

Can you give post #8 a look? :D. Thing about clearing a dungeon with only non-lethal damage over and over again.
It's the exact same thing. You've already overcome the challenge. This is why you can get the same XP by sneaking through a dungeon without any combat. At some point, the DM has to make a determination that the challenge has been overcome, and then awards you experience. There's no doing it again unless the challenge itself changes.

And this isn't something to be rules-lawyered or gamed, because the above is all based on DM judgement.

[Psyren]

Sigh... there is like 100% opposition. I guess I'll go back to enslaving an army of outsiders with divine spell capability, and spamming distilled joy forever...

What were you really expecting though? What's next, a Tomb of Horrors any% speedrun video using the statue glitch to jump the party to the final room?

If you're playing under what appear to be vastly different gaming expectations than everyone else, opposition is to be expected.

[Vhaidara]

I like my combat role during adventures.


That requires adventuring. So not a full-time shopkeeper.

I'm seeing a contradiction here...

[RoboEmperor]

It's the exact same thing. You've already overcome the challenge. This is why you can get the same XP by sneaking through a dungeon without any combat. At some point, the DM has to make a determination that the challenge has been overcome, and then awards you experience. There's no doing it again unless the challenge itself changes.

And this isn't something to be rules-lawyered or gamed, because the above is all based on DM judgement.

Just to be clear, this "farm" is solely role-play reasons. When the PC does adventure again, he'll have the exact same wealth and XP he had when he quit, except that he'll be famous world-wide for his merchandise.

Your sneak example is sound. My DM rules 1st time you sneak past him, you get the XP, but if you do it again, you're just repeating what you did before so no XP gained, even if the danger is ever present. Because people can make mistakes doing what they do everyday and end up dead.

I'll go back to the ambrosia farm... bleh. I hate that method because the only reliable way of achieving blissful state with prisoners, at no cost to me, is with succubi...


I'm seeing a contradiction here...

I like wizard when I adventure and I want to be able to run a shop for 10 years straight without adventuring in between. I know you understood what I meant D:<



If you're playing under what appear to be vastly different gaming expectations than everyone else, opposition is to be expected.

I remember somewhere on this forum, a guy said "unless you have a farmable source of xp" in some crafting related topic. Anyways total opposition isn't bad, it means I'm in very huge danger of becoming an ******* so I should stop.

I still got more ideas

1. Planar bind an outsider
2. Geas it to kill me
3. Break the circle
4. I kill it

but I'm stopping cause farming XP is very unnerving to DMs I guess.

[kellbyb]

The same two questions would apply.

I'm a commoner 1 (even if I wish I was an expert)

I have a cat

If I enter a cage (warning, not a bathtube) with the cat will I gain XP?

No. You don't get any xp from fights you lose.

[thethird]

Just use nipple clamps.

[Crake]

Why dont you instead get a bed of restoration, enslave a succubus, let her energy drain you down a level, spend the 50% xp that is left on that level, then use the bed of restoration to return to your normal level. Lets you have your level *500 xp available to craft at any point in time. Or alternatively, get a thought bottle. Or just play pathfinder, where there are no XP costs.

[Necroticplague]

I'll go back to the ambrosia farm... bleh. I hate that method because the only reliable way of achieving blissful state with prisoners, at no cost to me, is with succubi...

Well, if yu want, here's my set up for ambrosia farms, though it needs a bit of set-up.

1. Buy a bunch of Nipple clamps of exquisite pleasure.
2.Commision a Symbol of Pain
3.Have said suckers look at symbol of pain while wearing the clamps.
4. Harvest ambrosia

[RoboEmperor]

Well, if yu want, here's my set up for ambrosia farms, though it needs a bit of set-up.

1. Buy a bunch of Nipple clamps of exquisite pleasure.
2.Commision a Symbol of Pain
3.Have said suckers look at symbol of pain while wearing the clamps.
4. Harvest ambrosia

I haven't read BoVD XD.

Problem I have with succubi and... uh... nipple clamps... is that it makes the game not PG-13 anymore... so I get dirty, angry, looks if I mention setting up the ambrosia farms, which is partly the reason i look for alternative crafting XP farms.

But anyways, yeah thanks for informing me of that. I'm gonna find some way to build my courage to try and use your method in my next session.

[Ashtagon]

If you want to harvest ambrosia while keeping it PG, bear inn mind that the pleasure doesn't have to be sexual.

Create an art studio, and invite painters to hire rooms in the studio, and/or run art classes. That's also sufficiently joyful to generate ambrosia. Plus, you get to set yourself up as their agent and get commission off the sales. It's like getting paid twice!

Edit: Three times,. since they're also paying you rent on the rooms.

[Troacctid]

Why don't you just overcome noncombat challenges? You can gain xp without fighting, it's allowed. Do something to enrich yourself. Seize the day.

[Seppo87]

it's bad roleplay and an attempt to abuse the rules

This is the actual reason why it won't work, and the real motivation pushing people to answer that "it's not a challenge" and whatnot, even if they are not inclined to adimit it.

It doesn't work because it sucks, and no serious dm will ever allow it in any game involving even the smallest degree of roleplay

[Jack_Simth]

That requires adventuring. So not a full-time shopkeeper. Maybe part-time, you know, you adventure whenever your reserves run out but I'm talking about the magical equivalent of a blacksmith. 0 adventuring, only crafted goods, at least until the world-ending chain of events start.

It always bothers me that there's an infinite supply of magical scrolls in shops but... how do they endlessly supply it if the wizard crafting it is gonna run out of xp?There's a couple of different ways to harvest XP for use, some darker than others.

Book of Vile Darkness has Dark Craft XP from the Sacrifice rules (starts on page 26, the specific sacrifice reward option starts at the end of page 27 and runs onto page 28).
Book of Vile Darkness lets you harvest souls for crafting XP (page 33).
Book of Vile Darkness lets you harvest pain for crafting XP (Agony, the rules for it are scattered... page 33-34 tells you how to use it, pages 42 & 43 tell you how you can buy it, a spell on page 98 lets you harvest it, and an item on page 115 also lets you extract it... of course, as it's also listed as an alchemical item, you can also just Fabricate it).
Book of Exalted Deeds lets you harvest joy for crafting XP (Ambrosia; page 37 to buy or craft it, page 96 for the spell and the use of the spell)

There's some ways to combine these sorts of things to get an actual farm. An Timed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#timed) Automatic Reset (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#automatic) Magic Device Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost) of Distilled Joy (BoED) or Liquid Pain (BoVD) combined with a suitable living target (note that neither spell requires that the target be intelligent - you could use a cow quite easily) in a suitable state will work. Getting the critter in a state suitable for liquid pain is easy - a Permanent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) or the Eternity of Torture spell (BoVD, 93). Getting a critter in a state suitable for Distilled Joy works the same way, but has one extra step: Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain (BoVD, 115) to turn the pain into pleasure.

So if you're fine with essentially sacrificing chickens, you hire a Cleric-17 with the Pain domain to cast Eternity of Torture on a cow. You then place the comatose cow (which needs neither food, water, nor air, and doesn't age) on an Timed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#timed) Automatic Reset (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#automatic) Magic Device Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost) of Liquid Pain (BoVD, 98), and harvest the free 3 crafting XP each day. If you don't want your equipment to register as evil, you change the trap out for Distilled Joy (BoED, 96), and attach the Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain (BoVD, 115) to the cow's udder, and only get 2 crafting XP/day/cow (you may also get free milk forever). A cow costs 10 GP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins). A suitable Liquid Pain trap would be 14,000 gp and 1,120 xp to craft; a suitable Distilled Joy trap would be 7,500 gp and 600 xp to craft. A Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain has a market price of 8k, and would cost 4,000 gp and 200 xp to craft. Hiring a casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices) of Eternity of Torture costs 1,530 gp (and is a lot cheaper than the Symbol of Pain, plus cuts down on your maintenance). So to get 2 crafting XP/day with no taint on the items costs: 7500+4000+1530+10=13,040 gp and 800 xp. To get 3 crafting XP/day with a little taint on the resulting items costs 14000+10+1530=15,540 gp and 1,120 xp.
If you want to look at it in terms of cost per XP/day once complete:
Distilled Joy: 6,520 gp and 400 xp per crafting XP per day.
Liquid Pain: 5,180 gp and 373 (and a 3rd) xp per crafting XP per day.
The evil method is marginally more resource efficient, but also requires a slightly higher investment to kick it off.
Given the way crafting rules work, one person really only goes through at most 40 xp in crafting in a day without further investment (1 day per 1,000 gp market price of the item, 1/25th the market price in XP, so 40 xp/day crafting), so lets look at how much it takes to meet that rate for both methods:
Distilled Joy: 6,520 gp and 400 xp per crafting XP per day * 40 = 260,800 gp and 16,000 xp (although after the first 800 xp spent, you can slowly increase the number of these to only spend the 800 xp).
Liquid Pain: 5,180 gp and 373 (and a 3rd) xp per crafting XP per day * 40 = 207,200 gp and 14,933.333333333 xp (although after the first 1,120 xp spent, you can slowly increase the number of these to only spend the 1,120 xp).

There's a loophole in the Restoration and Level Drain rules - when you actually lose a level, your XP is set to halfway between the level you were and the next level down; you then spend XP, and score a Restoration - which puts you at the minimum XP for the highest level you had previously attained. This lets you spend GP instead of XP repeatedly, so long as you have a controlled method of losing a level and a way to get it back. When I first figured it out, I called it Do the Wight Thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9917340&postcount=52).

There's also the Thought Bottle Trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9916054&postcount=51).

[Invader]

I'm confused.

If this is purely an attempt to become "word famous" by crafting and selling magic items but in reality it will have 0 mechanical effect on your characters wealth/items/actual XP when you start playing again it's basically just your back story. If you dm is letting you get away with something as ridiculous as XP farming it seems that he'd be reasonable enough to just allow you to say "well in my off time I was able to craft sufficient magic items that I've obtained quite a reputation" without all the cheesy mechanical abuse.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm confused.

If this is purely an attempt to become "word famous" by crafting and selling magic items but in reality it will have 0 mechanical effect on your characters wealth/items/actual XP when you start playing again it's basically just your back story. If you dm is letting you get away with something as ridiculous as XP farming it seems that he'd be reasonable enough to just allow you to say "well in my off time I was able to craft sufficient magic items that I've obtained quite a reputation" without all the cheesy mechanical abuse.

You don't know my DM. You need to explain how you did everything. He also doesn't like players getting richer than WBL, so if I want to setup a magic shop, I gotta play by these rules.

I like being a construct engineer, so becoming a world famous construct manufacturer is something I want, and in order to be one I need to farm xp like a resource.

My DM is also very reluctant to allow BoED material.

That and all my previous reasons make me want to find other ways of farming crafting XP.

Seems everyone is against my suggested method because of balance issues, so I'll merely talk to my DM about it. If he's against it I'll ambrosia it.

Anyways thanks everyone.

[Psyren]

He also doesn't like players getting richer than WBL, so if I want to setup a magic shop, I gotta play by these rules.

He's not supposed to like it! The guidelines are there for a reason.

[RoboEmperor]

He's not supposed to like it! The guidelines are there for a reason.

Which is why I'm not complaining about it!

[Psyren]

Which is why I'm not complaining about it!

Good! We agree!

...I should stop shouting. :smalltongue:

[Vhaidara]

Good! We agree!

...I should stop shouting. :smalltongue:

No! Shouting is the natural form of communication among the manliest of men!

[Banjoman42]

I'm trying to open a magic shop with my wizard.


1. It's not a wizardD:<.
I'm getting mixed messages....

Another thing, since there is presumably a way that commoners and merchants get XP, why do you even need an XP farm?

[Milo v3]

You cannot "farm" experience since this is not a videogame and experience doesn't normally exist in-verse, so there would be no way for the character to know how to gain experience.

[Tvtyrant]

Wait, if you want to be a higher level why not just ask your DM to do a time skip and play at the level you want to play as? There's no reason to play at a low level if you want to play a higher one.

[georgie_leech]

I'm getting mixed messages....

Another thing, since there is presumably a way that commoners and merchants get XP, why do you even need an XP farm?

That was in response to someone saying to make an Artificer. Which, as he noted, isn't a Wizard.

[goto124]

You don't know my DM. You need to explain how you did everything. He also doesn't like players getting richer than WBL, so if I want to setup a magic shop, I gotta play by these rules.

Seems everyone is against my suggested method because of balance issues, so I'll merely talk to my DM about it. If he's against it I'll ambrosia it.


Why is your DM... *comforts you*


If you want to harvest ambrosia while keeping it PG, bear inn mind that the pleasure doesn't have to be sexual. Create an art studio, and invite painters to hire rooms in the studio, and/or run art classes. That's also sufficiently joyful to generate ambrosia.

Nice idea! If the DM is really that insistent on planning everything out, down to the mechanics...

[ericgrau]

Even if there is some risk your xp farm is partly predictable whereas dungeons are less predictable. That reduces the challenge right there and the standard CR/xp isn't fair. Basically any solution that's easier than adventuring should give less, so you may as well adventure.

And crafting doesn't take a lot of xp, so I'm not sure why you'd even need a farm. At level 14 you take down a simple encounter for 2,000 xp and you're good for the next 50,000 gp market value worth of items and the 50 days it takes to make them.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I agree with ericgrau.

1) Craft for a while, until your character feels a little drained.

2) Go ask the local militia if you can join them on patrol for a few days, for free, just to help them out.

3) Kill a few random monsters that threaten the local commoners/farmers.

4) ????

5) Get back to crafting for the next few weeks to months.

6) Profit!

You get credit as an upstanding citizen. You make XP for your needs. The locals will start to trust you more, and either shop at your store more often, or direct other people to said shop.

Why anyone would waste time setting up a videogame exploit when they can play DnD, I'll never understand. You want loot/xp? Play the game! Problem solved!

You wanna auto-grind loot/xp? Go play FF11 or something, I hear you can automate your entire party, and random encounters.

[RoboEmperor]

@ericgrau & Tohsaka Rin

Yeah, you're right.

I'll just go on an expedition to the elemental plane of Earth to grab all of my materials and gain some XP in the process. Why didn't I think of this earlier XD. The magic items (the ones that only require stones, metals, or gems to craft, i.e. CONSTRUCTS), will cost me 0 gp to make.

[Tohsaka Rin]

The beautiful thing about being a crafter is, when you need to gain power, the process is self-sustaining.

Make stuff, to help you get more stuff, to make MORE stuff!

Powaaaah! Statistically-regulated (but easily sustainable) powaaaah!

[Coidzor]

Or you can destroy magic items your party doesn't want. They also do have a craft reserve at every level, which helps to a degree.

This is about a PC turned NPC over downtime that may or may not turn PC again after a timeskip if the next campaign starts at the right level.

If they're actively adventuring or even just going adventuring on the weekend, then they don't need to farm XP, either, because they're going out and harvesting it in the wild.


It's the exact same thing. You've already overcome the challenge. This is why you can get the same XP by sneaking through a dungeon without any combat. At some point, the DM has to make a determination that the challenge has been overcome, and then awards you experience. There's no doing it again unless the challenge itself changes.

And this isn't something to be rules-lawyered or gamed, because the above is all based on DM judgement.

Well, I mean, it's still just as challenging if you go back and do it the next day, even if they haven't noticed that your character came and went yet and thus haven't changed up their patterns, no?

That is to say, I'm pretty sure that's purely a creation of table concerns rather than verisimilitude. Since it's not at the table, or, indeed, actually affecting the game at all, table concerns fall away.


I haven't read BoVD XD.

Problem I have with succubi and... uh... nipple clamps... is that it makes the game not PG-13 anymore... so I get dirty, angry, looks if I mention setting up the ambrosia farms, which is partly the reason i look for alternative crafting XP farms.

But anyways, yeah thanks for informing me of that. I'm gonna find some way to build my courage to try and use your method in my next session.

...

...

...How do you think Succubi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) apply their negative levels, exactly?

Honestly I'd prefer whatever way that must be because it'd mean they couldn't get it off without a number of standard and/or move actions to disrobe their opponents in combat as well as the non-PG-13 actions themselves, nerfing the ability to a significant extent and, indeed, to the point where it basically wouldn't be used outside of non-combat areas save for, maybe, a very, very specific form of combat.

Or are you confused about where kissing falls into the PG vs PG-13 rating system? :smallconfused:

Or what you're actually doing with the Bed of Restoration? :smallconfused:

Also, make them ****ing earrings or something if your group is such babies about something that's not even being used in a sexual manner here. :smalltongue:


it's bad roleplay and an attempt to abuse the rules

This is the actual reason why it won't work, and the real motivation pushing people to answer that "it's not a challenge" and whatnot, even if they are not inclined to adimit it.

It doesn't work because it sucks, and no serious dm will ever allow it in any game involving even the smallest degree of roleplay

It's sort of like anti-roleplay in the service of trying to roleplay after one has stopped playing the character, in a way. :smallconfused:

The DM apparently won't just handwave that his character gets to spend a decade as a magic item crafter and shopkeep by adventuring on the weekend or getting XP through various ways just wherever they're living and/or selling their magic items, so OP has to come up with a convoluted scheme for their character to get crafting XP to craft with during downtime that he won't actually see a profit from that doesn't involve adventuring because adventuring during the time skip is verboten.


He's not supposed to like it! The guidelines are there for a reason.

Then he should ban crafters in the first place, because, without a ridiculous amount of micromanagement or running an implausibly low-wealth game on the part of the DM, they're always going to go over at least a little bit.


@ericgrau & Tohsaka Rin

Yeah, you're right.

I'll just go on an expedition to the elemental plane of Earth to grab all of my materials and gain some XP in the process. Why didn't I think of this earlier XD. The magic items (the ones that only require stones, metals, or gems to craft, i.e. CONSTRUCTS), will cost me 0 gp to make.

Wait. If you could just handwave your character as going on weekend adventuring during the timeskip then why in the Nine Hells of Baator did you go to all this trouble in the first place? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Then he should ban crafters in the first place, because, without a ridiculous amount of micromanagement or running an implausibly low-wealth game on the part of the DM, they're always going to go over at least a little bit.


There's a vast gulf between "go over a little bit" and what the OP was proposing.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) You buy/build a high DC, high damage mechanical trap with its killing implement made of thinaun, contact trigger.

2) You buy a magic trap of Lesser Planar Binding, proximity trigger.

3) You place the traps so that the LPB trap will call a creature on the MT trap's contact trigger.

4) You approach the now set dual trap.

5) A mane is called. The mechanical trap kills it and traps its soul. You harvest the soul for 20 xp.

6) You leave the room and approach again.



This method has major advantages over any other method I've found:

a) Soul-harvesting for power is specifically mentioned in the BoVD thus characters have it as concept, whereas normal xp gains are a metagame concept only players would know.

b) It gives a specific, set amount of XP, not one relying on CR calculations or awarded by the GM.

c) You enslave no mortal being and have to face no danger.

d) You permanently destroy evil outsiders so it is a good act.

[RoboEmperor]

@Coidzor
Ideally I want this wizard to be locked in her shop forever and be able to craft goods forever, so instead of going hunting for creatures I was thinking of hunting the same creatures in the basement. So the elemental plane of earth is not optimal but a compromise.

This is all just a brainstorming process.

As for the succubi thing, they only drain levels upon kissing so... you know... you can do it without kissing, so no negative levels.

What I used to do was enslave a large number of outsiders and succubi, cast distilled joy on all the outsiders, and spend the day drawing ambrosia from all the outsiders. When I was discussing how much ambrosia I would make in a day... well... everyone's faces except my DM's were very disgusted.

Oh, we're ruling that distilled joy is permanent duration spell that lets the target give off ambrosia whenever its blissful. So you only need to cast it once, which is what we think WotC had in mind, instead of the other way to rule it, which is to cast for a day and miraculously time the blissful moment.

[Milo v3]

As for the succubi thing, they only drain levels upon kissing so... you know... you can do it without kissing, so no negative levels.

You have this backwards. They drain levels upon an act of passion. You can do an act of passion without kissing.

[EyethatBinds]

Here's your primary problem with enslaving random monsters (ignoring the thematic reasons) and ordering them to attack you. They're no threat.

The instant you want to end the encounter you simply say "Stop attacking" and the enslaved creature will do so. Why did you think this would work again?

[RoboEmperor]

Here's your primary problem with enslaving random monsters (ignoring the thematic reasons) and ordering them to attack you. They're no threat.

The instant you want to end the encounter you simply say "Stop attacking" and the enslaved creature will do so. Why did you think this would work again?

That's no different than saying there's no risk entering a dungeon with a bajillion buffs that literally make you completely invincible to the dungeon's inhabitants. i.e. Astral Projection


You have this backwards. They drain levels upon an act of passion. You can do an act of passion without kissing.

Yeah, you're right. Oh well, who cares if some 6hd outsiders turn into wights.

[Vhaidara]

That's no different than saying there's no risk entering a dungeon with a bajillion buffs that literally make you completely invincible to the dungeon's inhabitants. i.e. Astral Projection

There isn't, and you shouldn't?

[Psyren]

That's no different than saying there's no risk entering a dungeon with a bajillion buffs that literally make you completely invincible to the dungeon's inhabitants. i.e. Astral Projection

Astral Projection hardly makes you invincible, and the point there is that the monsters in such a dungeon (if they were level-appropriate to begin with) still have all kinds of counters they can use to threaten you or at least make you fail your task. Even if they don't have magical counters to your AP itself, sufficient damage will still snap you back to your body., no different than forcing a contingent retreat.

A monster that you control like a puppet does not have this option - even if it has ways to cripple or kill you, it is constrained so as not to make that outcome a possibility.

[EyethatBinds]

That's no different than saying there's no risk entering a dungeon with a bajillion buffs that literally make you completely invincible to the dungeon's inhabitants. i.e. Astral Projection


No, there's a pretty significant difference. You can stop the fight at any time and make the monster surrender. Though, I guess there should be some level of experience given for fighting in that sense, since otherwise there would be no purpose in practicing.

Kind of hilarious to think that practicing with a wooden dummy or a live opponent with wooden swords won't give any experience according to my own statements.

How would training work if you need to be in danger to gain exp?

[RoboEmperor]

At this point it's picking hairs but, the whole enslavement and non-lethal damage is solely for RP reasons. i.e. i don't want to run a slaughter house. I like my business casualty free.

If I remove the enslavement thing it's
1. Planar bind some outsider
2. Geas it to kill me (hence I can't stop him)
3. Break the circle
4. Kill him. Maybe give him a free round.

Then that will probably, roleplay wise, result in some higher power taking notice in the slaughter of his fellow whatever, and I get marked for life by an entire organization or something. Only outsiders that won't have a higher power seeking revenge is probably demons. They don't really die, they're not organized like devils, and they blame the demon for being too weak to kill the wizard rather than the wizard.

I could alternatively go
1-3 the same
4. Deal non lethal damage and knock it unconscious
5. Lock it inside some super secure cage
6. After it healed up, open the door and fight again.

Enslavement is merely a super secure cage substitute. Of course, the entire "arena' has to be dimension locked.

Anyways, it is to my knowledge every high-op wizard abuses astral projection after scrying the dungeon-to-be-delved and prepare spells/defenses/craft contingencies to ensure at worst case scenario, have 100% chance of escaping the dungeon, aka 0 risk, even without astral projection.

Just saying. Please note that I'm probably not gonna go this route for my crafting xp needs, but if an idea is to be damned, it should be damned properly!

[EyethatBinds]

Why not just do scry and die tactics on local monsters and villains?

[Mystral]

I'm trying to open a magic shop with my wizard. As you all probably know, crafting takes a massive bite out of your XP. So... here's my solution!

1. Build the best construct I can and order it to protect me.
2. Enslave the strongest living creature you and your construct can kill
3. Order it to try its absolute best to kill you until it's knocked unconscious
4. Your 1st construct will protect you and attack the enslaved creature with non lethal damage only, and you'll use your spells to help it win.
5. After the creature is knocked unconscious, you get its full CR XP
6. Heal everyone
7. Repeat 3-6 until you are just about to level up
8. Use the XP to build and sell constructs, magic scrolls, wondrous items, etc.

Before I do this in game, I'd like someone to proofread my plan. Is there a problem? :D

Oh and by the way, this is a semi-retired character, which means the current campaign is finished and she's settling down until the next world ending chain of events start, which is probably in 10ish years. Good thing she's a necropolitan cause they don't age, or die from old age, unless I'm mistaken.

edit: Made some corrections due to flaws pointed out by people. This is why I post in this forum before executing my plans!

I would award you the XP for the creature once, for enslaving it. After that, no XP, because you only overcome a challenge you yourself set up. You might as well bash your head against the wall until you fall unconcious and claim that you have defeated a creature of your challenge rating (i. e. yourself).

[RoboEmperor]

I would award you the XP for the creature once, for enslaving it. After that, no XP, because you only overcome a challenge you yourself set up. You might as well bash your head against the wall until you fall unconcious and claim that you have defeated a creature of your challenge rating (i. e. yourself).

That is an amazing example.

[Troacctid]

In that scenario I would give the xp to the wall.

Many a floor has unwittingly leveled up because a careless wizard forgot to prepare feather fall.

[Allanimal]

Normally, if you fight an opponent who can summon, you only get XP for the opponent, not the summon d creatures. I assume (please correct me if I am wrong) this also applies to other spells for acquiring helper monkeys. If so, then planar binding an opponent should yield zero XP. You aren't overcoming the being that brought the minion to you.

[thethird]

In that scenario I would give the xp to the wall.

Many a floor has unwittingly leveled up because a careless wizard forgot to prepare feather fall.

That reminds me when an NPC in WoW killed a friend of mine and leveled up, with shiny light and music included.

[Coidzor]

No, there's a pretty significant difference. You can stop the fight at any time and make the monster surrender. Though, I guess there should be some level of experience given for fighting in that sense, since otherwise there would be no purpose in practicing.

Then all you'd have to do would be to set up some kind of lose condition for yourself if that's all that's required, though, like payment or freeing the creature when/if it finally succeeds in knocking you out.

Or use Planar Binding where one doesn't have direct control over the minion after setting them to the task. That'd be one way to set it up to be a level and wealth stable system, too, since one would have outlays of gold for at least some of those planar bound minions.


Kind of hilarious to think that practicing with a wooden dummy or a live opponent with wooden swords won't give any experience according to my own statements.

Well, should practicing with a wooden dummy give experience at all? Or should it just be part of the handwavium behind how some people get their first class level in a class that has some emphasis on melee combat?


How would training work if you need to be in danger to gain exp?

It wouldn't. That's the point of making that kind of decision. :smallconfused:

If you require mortal danger to get XP at all, ever, then you make it so that people can't get XP from nonlethal sparring or non-overtly lethal combat, such as boxing or wrestling.

Giving reduced XP, on the other hand, would allow you to have both lethal combat and sparring improve people's capabilities at different rates, but then you wouldn't be able to gainsay someone having a lackey they control try to overcome them nonlethally and then them striving against their lackey.


In that scenario I would give the xp to the wall.

Many a floor has unwittingly leveled up because a careless wizard forgot to prepare feather fall.

So that's how Tippy makes the walls and floors of his fortresses be 20th-40th level characters, minimum, in their own right. :smallamused:


Yeah, you're right. Oh well, who cares if some 6hd outsiders turn into wights.

...And this plan is somehow simpler than having an LE mendicant hospital scheme getting you guaranteed crafting XP how, again? Because really it just sounds like you've made it overly complicated and added in unnecessary steps for no reason.

Unless your intent was to squick out the other players by describing the unnecessarily convoluted way you were using succubi to get distilled joy by having them use their energy drain sex to cause pleasure to outsiders before killing them rather than that their negative reaction was undesired.

That or you were using planar binding and were killing them with succubi to get out of having to pay them anything for their service rather than being able to get it going without having to promise any money at all. :smallconfused:

Or I've missed something here about why you feel succubi orgies are the best way to get distilled joy for crafting.

[RoboEmperor]

@Coidzor
Succubi was what I was doing BEFORE.
Before I knew the existence of nipple clamps + symbol of pain, which maybe debatable about whether or not the pain causes a "blissful" state.
And sexual bliss is the easiest to control among the blissful states listed in the spell description. Dryad happily dreaming under her tree, artists drawing, these are all random, unable to be controlled by me, and succubi are lesser-planar-bind-able, allowing access to this farm at level 9 anywhere, anytime.

I never said it was the best way, it was one way I was doing before.

I haven't heard of LE mendicant hospital scheme.

[Jack_Simth]

I haven't heard of LE mendicant hospital scheme.I am NOT the one who came up with it, but it's pretty straightforward. You open a free hospital. "Wracked with disease" is one of the sample states on the Liquid Pain spell. So you open a hospital, where the beds are all enchanted with the spell (although you can just cast it for the first several). You then provide long-term care as per the Heal skill, at no charge, to anyone who's ill. You get a rather lot of people coming your way (mostly those who can't afford to hire a Cleric for a Remove Disease), and in a standard medieval-esque setting, a steady supply of crafting XP.

[goto124]

How long do patients stay on the beds? Got to find a way to prevent overflowing with them, a problem RL hospitals face!

[EyethatBinds]

This was much easier in 2nd edition. You only needed treasure to gain experience.

[thethird]

So that's how Tippy makes the walls and floors of his fortresses be 20th-40th level characters, minimum, in their own right. :smallamused:

While my google fu isn't as strong as it was I'm certain that Tippy uses a psionic sandwich variation to turn psions into bricks and use those to construct his walls/floors. So the bricks are the ones with levels. :smallamused:

[Jack_Simth]

How long do patients stay on the beds? Got to find a way to prevent overflowing with them, a problem RL hospitals face!

Until they're healed. Given the rules on it, a reasonably built expert-1 doctor (nonelite array with a 12 or 13 in Wis (+1), max ranks in Heal (+4), skill focus heal (+3), and masterwork tools (+2) = +10 modifier), how Heal works (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm), and the Disease Mechanics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#disease) (with associated DC's), that'll usually just be two days (doctor takes 10) for anything short of Devil Chills (3 days) or Mummy Rot (specifically requires Remove Disease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm)). Each doctor can handle six patients. Long-term care and full bed rest means that the victim is regaining 4 points of ability damage per ability score per day, in addition to essentially automatically passing the save for the disease.

A dose of Agony has a market price of 200 gp.
A Pain Extractor (which you put in the beds) has a market price of 8,000 gp.
A Bedroll and a winter blanket cost a total of 0.6 gp.
A trained Hireling (the doctor) is 3 silvers a day (actually, let's go nuts, and call it 1 gp/day, for giggles, as the doc's particularly skilled)
The masterwork tools for the doctor cost 50 gp.
So six beds (one pain extractor each) cost you 6*(8,000 +0.6) gp market = 48,003.6 gp
The tools are 50 gp.
One time expenses for a single-doctor facility: 48,053.6 gp (not counting the building or land).

The doctor costs you 1 gp/day.
I'm assuming that you'll need to feed the patients while they're at the facility. Good meals from the local inn list at 5 sp/person/day. So for six patients, that's 3 gp/day.
Recurring expenses: 4 gp/day

Income: 6 doses of Agony each day.
Each dose of Agony is valued at 200 gp market (or 3 xp for crafting).
If we sell them for half market, that means we've got 600 gp/day in gross income.

Net income per day is thus 596 gp.

To calculate break-even, we divide our non-recurring expenses by our net income. 48,053.6/596=80.63 (rounded).
Break-even point is on day 81. After that, it's pure profit.
Note: If we can take our time selling the Agony, and get market price, then we're netting 1,196 gp/day, and hit break-even on day 41.

Once you hit break-even, you set up a second facility (in the same location if you expect to have enough volume to keep it busy; a different location if you don't). Once you've got a big enough agony farm to keep up with your crafting (40 xp/day for most people, which requires 13.333... beds, so three facilities) you can use most of the Agony for crafting, and sell just enough of it to meet your recurring expenses.