Looking for some gish build help

[Adalid]

Hello Giantip, i've posted here a few times before and have had great luck with getting responses so I figure why not come back.
So I'm thinking of retiring my current character and introducing a new one starting at lv 10. This would be my 4th character ever made and the first one with arcane spells (I've read the wizard handbook and have like a general idea behind all of it). The character I had in my mind would be a gish dragoon character if that's possible to make. I'd like him to be electric themed as my last character was fire (swordsage with a bunch of desert wind maneuvers). I was also looking at the Magus class in pathfinder as well. But since im still somewhat new to the game I was wondering what are some of the more fun gish class combinations in the game. All books are open except for psionics. Can also mix and match between 3.5 and pathfinder.

[Karl Aegis]

Variant #8 of Little Red Raiding Hood goes like this:

Nonlawful Nonevil Dragonborn Fire Elf Barbarian1/Cleric1/Martial Transmuter4/Ruathar3 (Races of the Wild 122)/Abjurant Champion5 (Complete Mage 51)/Spellsword1 (Complete Warrior 79)/Eldritch Knight5

Key Feats are Battle Jump, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack (Unapproachable East, Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer, respectively.) Red Raiding Hood is generally considered at least a decent Dragoon. Does this work for you?

[Flickerdart]

Do you want a dragoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragoon) or a dragoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_character_jobs#Dragoon)?

[Adalid]

Variant #8 of Little Red Raiding Hood goes like this:

Nonlawful Nonevil Dragonborn Fire Elf Barbarian1/Cleric1/Martial Transmuter4/Ruathar3 (Races of the Wild 122)/Abjurant Champion5 (Complete Mage 51)/Spellsword1 (Complete Warrior 79)/Eldritch Knight5

Key Feats are Battle Jump, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack (Unapproachable East, Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer, respectively.) Red Raiding Hood is generally considered at least a decent Dragoon. Does this work for you?
I'm sorry I didn't specify that on my alignment, I was kinda hoping to make a lawful good Dragoon that worships Bahamut and I believe barbarians can't be lawful good but I could be wrong since I'm still somewhat new to the game. Would the build work if I were human? There could be repercussions to not being a human in the setting we're playing as in this world pandora's box was opened and thats how magic was introduced forgot how many years ago now. Do you know if this build would work with Wu-jen? I'm a huge fan of their flavor.

[Adalid]

Do you want a dragoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragoon) or a dragoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_character_jobs#Dragoon)?

The first, I love how they used Kain seeing as how he is one of my favorite final fantasy characters!

[Flickerdart]

The first, I love how they used Kain seeing as how he is one of my favorite final fantasy characters!
But...Kain is the second link.

[Adalid]

But...Kain is the second link.

I'm sorry the second one was the first one that I clicked, I shat the bed haha. Ignore that but yes dragoon from the FF world is what I had in mind :D

[Troacctid]

The one that does all the jumping? Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is great for that--it gives you +20 to Jump checks (+4 for every 10 feet of speed).

[Warlocknthewind]

Lots and lots.

Hexblades: Have best Familiar & Best spells available to the half casters. Does well mounted.

Duskblade: Damage, plain and simple. Not as effective mounted because channeling doesn't't work with charging

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, for the best single classes gish.

Dread Necromancers: Make surprisingly effective gishes, especially if you took Tomb Tainted Soul at first level.

Wizards... Take Abjurant Champion, regardless of their specialization (which should be conjuration or transmutation, the class makes you a sort of specialist by taking levels), 1 to 4 levels in Spellsword, Dragnslayer level 1, and Eldritch knight, NEVER losing more than one caster level, and as least as possible overall. Trade your familiar, and regain it with Obtain Familiar, Surplus it with Improved Familiar to capitalize on your high BAB. The rest can really be whatever you want, and it should be effective.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If I recall correctly, Sohei gain rage and may be lawful, so you could make that substitution and otherwise use that version of the 'hood. You would need another source of pounce, sadly.

[Adalid]

Thank you everyone for the help! I feel like I'm getting a better grasp of where to start with the build. Regarding the pounce, do you think fitting in a warblade level in there once my intiator level would be high enough to get the pounce maneuver they have? Also is there a point to ruathar? I was reading the class and I dont see anything that tells me "hey this is cool for your dragoon" is there something I'm not seeing?

[Troacctid]

Ruathar is good for boring reasons. You can qualify for it easily and it upgrades your chassis with a slightly bigger hit die, slightly more skill points, and slightly better BAB. It also gives you martial weapon proficiency, which is important for Wizards, who don't normally get martial weapons. Basically, it's just slightly better than the base class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, there's Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) from various sources (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=persistent%20spell) which makes a personal-range or fixed-range (but not touch-range since reach varies) spell last 24 hours instead of its normal duration. There are plenty of buffs that last only a few rounds that you can cast once and make them last all day with this, but you'll want to be able to apply it to your spells without paying the +6 level cost, more on that later.

For a FF Dragoon style of character, you'll probably want to use the feat Leap Attack in Complete Adventurer. That requires you to use Power Attack, which is spectacular when combined with the spell Wraithstrike in Spell Compendium. It just so happens that you can use Persistent Spell with that. Another option would be to use a dive attack from the wings aspect of Dragonborn (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b), which doubles your damage with a piercing weapon, though winged flight isn't possible in low and/or narrow corridors of dungeons, so Leap Attack is the more useful choice.

There's a spell called Thunderlance in Spell Compendium which creates a lance of force that can extend to up to 20 ft., and you can use Persistent Spell with it. You can also put Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) on it, though spells ignore all types of damage reduction by default (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) (first paragraph). You use your spellcasting ability score (Int or Cha) instead of Strength to determine your attack and damage bonuses, so the character doesn't need to be physically strong. Thunderlance also has other benefits, such as being able to strike ethereal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness) and incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality) targets and being able to break other force effects such as Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm) and Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) spells.

Your build will really depend on whether you want to use Wizard or Sorcerer or something else entirely. It also somewhat depends on what base race you would be applying the Dragonborn template to, or whether you're going to skip that. You definitely want to include Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage, and you'll also want to include some way of paying an alternate cost for metamagic, particularly Persistent Spell. Generally the best choices for that are Incantatrix in Player's Guide to Faerun (the 3.5 version, not the 3.0 version that can be found online), Spelldancer in Magic of Faerun, Divine Metamagic in Complete Divine which only works with divine spells, the Illumian race from Races of Destiny with the Naenhoon runeword that's only usable 2/day, and a few other obscure options. Spelldancer has a lot of feat prerequisites, but is one of the easiest to use if done right. Incantatrix requires an unusually high Spellcraft bonus, which can be gained via an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)'s invest skill ranks ability (cheesy) and/or a custom magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) with a competence bonus (expensive). Divine Metamagic would take some extreme shenanigans to use it with arcane spells, unless you want to go with a divine casting class like Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), and even then you would need multiple Night Sticks from Libris Mortis (expensive and cheesy) to use it multiple times each day. Illumian with Naenhoon also requires the ability to turn undead, which is typically gained via Sacred Exorcist in Complete Divine, it won't work if you combine it with Dragonborn, and there are more than two spells you'll want to persist each day. You could always just cast a persistent spell from a higher level spell slot the way the designers intended, and use thing to reduce the level increase such as Practical Metamagic in Races of the Dragon and Easy Metamagic in Dragon issue 325 p62. Even with those, you would need 8th level spell slots to persist a Thunderlance.

If I were making this character, he would be either a Lesser Tiefling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling) or a Lesser Air Genasi with Dragonborn of Bahamut and the wings aspect. Lesser planetouched races are detailed in Player's Guide to Faerun p191, basically their type changes to Humanoid and they have no level adjustment, but they're still vulnerable to anything a native outsider would be vulnerable to (which isn't really anything at all considering the changes from 3.0 to 3.5). An Air Genasi gets +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, medium size, and 30 ft. base land speed, everything else would be replaced by the Dragonborn traits. That's probably the best choice given the lightning theme you're going for. The class build at level 10 would be Wizard 4/ Crusader 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 3, future levels would be Abjurant Champion 5, followed by one more Incantatrix level, and then finish with either Eldritch Knight or Jade Phoenix Mage. Crusader is in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, and if you start taking it at 5th level you can get 2nd level maneuvers such as Battle Leader's Charge. Take Item Familiar at 3rd level and invest every skill point you get after that into it for the greatest return. It should be a ring, which you always wear a glove or gauntlet over so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or slight of hand it. It will be an intelligent item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm), which is regarded as a construct, and constructs and other creatures cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Use this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from Unearthed Arcana to get Power Attack instead of Scribe Scroll. You'll need Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Item Familiar, and Combat Casting, so you'll want to get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) to have two extra feats. Also consider taking Energy Substitution: Electric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#energySubstitution) for your lightning theme. You should also definitely get Combat Reflexes if you have a positive Dex bonus.

You'll want to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor from the Book of Exalted Deeds every day instead of wearing armor, get a Rod of Bodily Restoration in Magic Item Compendium to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when that ends. You can use Persistent Spell with Shield so it lasts all day. Both of those spells will benefit from Abjurant Champion's bonuses once you start taking it. Your weapon will be the Thunderlance with Persistent Spell, and you can get a (Lesser) Metamagic Rod of Extend to use with your hour/level spells such as Luminous Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, and Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire from Complete Mage. You should also cast Greater Resistance from Spell Compendium every day. Other spells to use with Persistent Spell every day include Expeditious Retreat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm), Wraithstrike, Magic Circle Against Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm), Swift Fly from Spell Compendium, Fire Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm) twice (one warm, one cold, both energy substituted to deal electric damage), Ray Deflection in Spell Compendium, Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm), etc. You should also say you used Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) with See Invisibility and Darkvision.

Other than your Item Familiar and your metamagic rods, you should probably get a Circlet of Rapid Casting in Magic Item Compendium, and per page 234 of that same book you can add an Enhancement bonus to Intelligence to that head slot item for the same price as buying a normal Headband of Intellect with the same bonus. Try to get any necessary item effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) that your spell buffs don't cover, and a Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29) is great to have, or just cherry-pick the more useful/fun items from that list.

What spells you don't use on buffs should be used for extremely efficient crowd controls and problem solvers, such as Web, Glitterdust, Benign Transposition, Dimension Door, Shrink Item, Solid Fog, etc. Most of your time in combat should be spent attacking, your spells are to buff yourself, keep multiple opponents from posing a threat to your party, and getting yourself and your party out of situations that attack rolls can't handle. Low level spells in combat should be cast with the Circlet of Rapid Casting so you can still charge or full attack in the same round.

[Adalid]

First of all, there's Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) from various sources (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=persistent%20spell) which makes a personal-range or fixed-range (but not touch-range since reach varies) spell last 24 hours instead of its normal duration. There are plenty of buffs that last only a few rounds that you can cast once and make them last all day with this, but you'll want to be able to apply it to your spells without paying the +6 level cost, more on that later.

For a FF Dragoon style of character, you'll probably want to use the feat Leap Attack in Complete Adventurer. That requires you to use Power Attack, which is spectacular when combined with the spell Wraithstrike in Spell Compendium. It just so happens that you can use Persistent Spell with that. Another option would be to use a dive attack from the wings aspect of Dragonborn (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b), which doubles your damage with a piercing weapon, though winged flight isn't possible in low and/or narrow corridors of dungeons, so Leap Attack is the more useful choice.

There's a spell called Thunderlance in Spell Compendium which creates a lance of force that can extend to up to 20 ft., and you can use Persistent Spell with it. You can also put Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) on it, though spells ignore all types of damage reduction by default (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) (first paragraph). You use your spellcasting ability score (Int or Cha) instead of Strength to determine your attack and damage bonuses, so the character doesn't need to be physically strong. Thunderlance also has other benefits, such as being able to strike ethereal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness) and incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality) targets and being able to break other force effects such as Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm) and Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) spells.

Your build will really depend on whether you want to use Wizard or Sorcerer or something else entirely. It also somewhat depends on what base race you would be applying the Dragonborn template to, or whether you're going to skip that. You definitely want to include Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage, and you'll also want to include some way of paying an alternate cost for metamagic, particularly Persistent Spell. Generally the best choices for that are Incantatrix in Player's Guide to Faerun (the 3.5 version, not the 3.0 version that can be found online), Spelldancer in Magic of Faerun, Divine Metamagic in Complete Divine which only works with divine spells, the Illumian race from Races of Destiny with the Naenhoon runeword that's only usable 2/day, and a few other obscure options. Spelldancer has a lot of feat prerequisites, but is one of the easiest to use if done right. Incantatrix requires an unusually high Spellcraft bonus, which can be gained via an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)'s invest skill ranks ability (cheesy) and/or a custom magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) with a competence bonus (expensive). Divine Metamagic would take some extreme shenanigans to use it with arcane spells, unless you want to go with a divine casting class like Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), and even then you would need multiple Night Sticks from Libris Mortis (expensive and cheesy) to use it multiple times each day. Illumian with Naenhoon also requires the ability to turn undead, which is typically gained via Sacred Exorcist in Complete Divine, it won't work if you combine it with Dragonborn, and there are more than two spells you'll want to persist each day. You could always just cast a persistent spell from a higher level spell slot the way the designers intended, and use thing to reduce the level increase such as Practical Metamagic in Races of the Dragon and Easy Metamagic in Dragon issue 325 p62. Even with those, you would need 8th level spell slots to persist a Thunderlance.

If I were making this character, he would be either a Lesser Tiefling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling) or a Lesser Air Genasi with Dragonborn of Bahamut and the wings aspect. Lesser planetouched races are detailed in Player's Guide to Faerun p191, basically their type changes to Humanoid and they have no level adjustment, but they're still vulnerable to anything a native outsider would be vulnerable to (which isn't really anything at all considering the changes from 3.0 to 3.5). An Air Genasi gets +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, medium size, and 30 ft. base land speed, everything else would be replaced by the Dragonborn traits. That's probably the best choice given the lightning theme you're going for. The class build at level 10 would be Wizard 4/ Crusader 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 3, future levels would be Abjurant Champion 5, followed by one more Incantatrix level, and then finish with either Eldritch Knight or Jade Phoenix Mage. Crusader is in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, and if you start taking it at 5th level you can get 2nd level maneuvers such as Battle Leader's Charge. Take Item Familiar at 3rd level and invest every skill point you get after that into it for the greatest return. It should be a ring, which you always wear a glove or gauntlet over so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or slight of hand it. It will be an intelligent item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm), which is regarded as a construct, and constructs and other creatures cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Use this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from Unearthed Arcana to get Power Attack instead of Scribe Scroll. You'll need Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Item Familiar, and Combat Casting, so you'll want to get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) to have two extra feats. Also consider taking Energy Substitution: Electric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#energySubstitution) for your lightning theme. You should also definitely get Combat Reflexes if you have a positive Dex bonus.

You'll want to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor from the Book of Exalted Deeds every day instead of wearing armor, get a Rod of Bodily Restoration in Magic Item Compendium to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when that ends. You can use Persistent Spell with Shield so it lasts all day. Both of those spells will benefit from Abjurant Champion's bonuses once you start taking it. Your weapon will be the Thunderlance with Persistent Spell, and you can get a (Lesser) Metamagic Rod of Extend to use with your hour/level spells such as Luminous Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, and Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire from Complete Mage. You should also cast Greater Resistance from Spell Compendium every day. Other spells to use with Persistent Spell every day include Expeditious Retreat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm), Wraithstrike, Magic Circle Against Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm), Swift Fly from Spell Compendium, Fire Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm) twice (one warm, one cold, both energy substituted to deal electric damage), Ray Deflection in Spell Compendium, Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm), etc. You should also say you used Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) with See Invisibility and Darkvision.

Other than your Item Familiar and your metamagic rods, you should probably get a Circlet of Rapid Casting in Magic Item Compendium, and per page 234 of that same book you can add an Enhancement bonus to Intelligence to that head slot item for the same price as buying a normal Headband of Intellect with the same bonus. Try to get any necessary item effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) that your spell buffs don't cover, and a Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29) is great to have, or just cherry-pick the more useful/fun items from that list.

What spells you don't use on buffs should be used for extremely efficient crowd controls and problem solvers, such as Web, Glitterdust, Benign Transposition, Dimension Door, Shrink Item, Solid Fog, etc. Most of your time in combat should be spent attacking, your spells are to buff yourself, keep multiple opponents from posing a threat to your party, and getting yourself and your party out of situations that attack rolls can't handle. Low level spells in combat should be cast with the Circlet of Rapid Casting so you can still charge or full attack in the same round.

I'm not sure what address to send the gift basket to because this was an amazing amount of help. Thanks for going into such detail, and thank you everyone for the build help feeling really excited to play this character.

[DMVerdandi]

To be completely honest, If you have true crossover status between pathfinder and 3.5

Any wizard levels you plan on using, simply use the arcanist instead.
Somehow, I would simply go the divine power route and persist that. Get spells from the Draconomicon, races of dragon, and Dragon magic.
If your DM doesn't care, just research divine power, and put it on your list.

Pick up some form of magical armor(Draconomicon has one that gives you dragon scales), Thunderlance was mentioned, And use the Eidetic spell caster feat from dragon.
Then, when your level is high enough, go into spell dancer. It will allow you to persist spells for a perform check.

I know it's all over the place, but essentially, this will end up putting you at the same BAB as a fighter, You won't need a spell book, You will have dragon breath spells and such, and you will be very dragony.