House Ruling Jump

[Atmosk]

So I'm playing an eldritch knight that is about to hit 4th level and am considering switching out Expeditious Retreat for Jump. I had to look up the rules for jumping and found that with a 20 in STR (which I'll have at level 4 due to high rolls and racial bonuses) my normal horizontal jump is 20 ft. and with the jump spell I could leap 60 feet!

My imagination was immediately arrested by thoughts of pouncing on foe's from across the room and leaping from building to building like batman.

My DM then pointed out that jumping costs 1 foot of movement for every foot cleared by the jump. We talked about it for a moment and he made the impromptu ruling that I could jump one turn and land the next turn, using movement from both turns to complete the jump. Which satisfied me at the time, but after thinking about it that seems kinda problematic.

How would ending the turn while still being mid-air work? Also, I dislike the idea of creatures, who I am lunging at, being able to simply walk upto me and knock me out of the air like a fly or go 30 feet to the left and fire arrows at me. Overall it gives of the impression that im floating around like a balloon rather then hurtling at them like a cannon ball. Spending two turns worth of movement is kinda a big commitment too
and I don't want to be forced to stand around looking like an idiot because my target is no longer where I expected him to be.

I was thinking about trying to convince him to just make jumps that are made while under the effects of the jump spell cost 1 foot of movement for every 3 feet cleared by the jump.

I can see how that could become imbalanced under certain conditions. Taking my own character as an example he could move 10 ft. normally then make a 60 ft. jump giving him an effective movement of 70 ft. Your getting that with a duration of a minute without using concentration and only need to expend a level 1 spell slot. Putting it that way makes it sound kinda egregious, but that's mainly because I have an unusually high STR score for my level.

So what do you think of house ruling Jump? Do you think it would disrupt game balance?

Personally our group has no reason to worry about unbalancing combat. We mostly focus on RP and political intrigue. I'd say on average we have 0-1 combat encounters per 4 hour session, although we have had two combats our longer sessions. As a result out of combat utility overshadows combative efficiency by an overwhelming degree in our game, which is why I initially wanted to get rid of expeditious retreat in the first place.

For the most part the only reason I'm arguing for it in the first place is because I think it sounds cool and the fact that the RAW mechanics are pretty lame.

[heavyfuel]

How would ending the turn while still being mid-air work? Also, I dislike the idea of creatures, who I am lunging at, being able to simply walk upto me and knock me out of the air like a fly or go 30 feet to the left and fire arrows at me. Overall it gives of the impression that im floating around like a balloon rather then hurtling at them like a cannon ball

Simply becaue turns and rounds are the ONLY way you can have a table-top game, it doesn't mean the character stopped doing what they were doing as soon as their turn is over. You won't be "flying", and if an enemy hits you while you're in the air, it's seen as if you had jumped and hit while you jumped.

[Kryx]

You should not be able to move further with jump than your normal movement speed. It likely would've specified so if it was intended to give you extra movement. Expeditious Retreat for instance lets you more more. Jump is imo intended to get to high places.

You could either jump your movement speed or do what the person above said: visualize it a bit better.

[Glarnog]

A dwarf in our party has the Boots of Springing and Striding. DM didn't like to stop jumps mid turn either. He ruled she can complete movement from jumping even if it's more than she could move normaly in a round. All the other players are new to rpgs and DND specficly so they are all pretty low op having fun so it hasn't been abused yet.

[Atmosk]

Simply becaue turns and rounds are the ONLY way you can have a table-top game, it doesn't mean the character stopped doing what they were doing as soon as their turn is over. You won't be "flying", and if an enemy hits you while you're in the air, it's seen as if you had jumped and hit while you jumped.

I realize that is how it works officially (all turns in a round happen simultaneously within a 6 second time span), I was commenting on how the flow of action "feels" if that makes sense. Being able to be beaten up while in the air gives off the impression that your dangling in the air like a pinata rather then zooming through the air, which is a problem.

As I stated in the latter half of my post combat is somewhat of a rarity in our group and when it does happen, its not about DPR or anything we just want to show off some of our abilities. I'd much rather have something that is showy and cool sounding then mechanically relevant. Call me a chunni if you wish, but I'd much rather take enlarge/reduce then haste any day.

I'm not sure what type of distinction your attempting to make with the term "flying". Of course I'm not flying in the same sense as the spell Fly, nor did I mean to imply that my movement type would be considered "flying" (although that may be a decision made by the DM), however I am suspended in the air at the end of the current turn and would also be at the beginning of the next turn unless something causes me to be dislodged in the interim according to the ruling made by my DM.

[AvatarVecna]

For the average person (that is, with 30 ft movement and Str 10), this isn't a problem, which might be why it didn't come up. If I were DMing, I'd houserule the Jump spell to read as thus:

"You touch a creature. Until the spell ends, the creature touched multiplies their jump distance by 3, and can exchange a foot of ground movement for 3 feet of jumping movement."

The monk ability with similar mechanics would be reworded similarly. Of course, that's just what my ruling would be, so make of that what you will.

[MinaBee]

I agree, ending a turn in mid air feels weird.

I'm away from book at the moment, but if my understanding is correct:
Your character can jump exactly 60ft while under the effects of the spell?
The jump rules state you can only clear a distance equal to your speed?

Seems to me like, in order to make a sixty foot long jump, it would take your move and your action. You spend your action "dashing" to double your move, then make the jump using all 60ft of your move for that round.

[Kryx]

Seems to me like, in order to make a sixty foot long jump, it would take your move and your action. You spend your action "dashing" to double your move, then make the jump using all 60ft of your move for that round.

Exactly this.

[Bubzors]

Seems to me like, in order to make a sixty foot long jump, it would take your move and your action. You spend your action "dashing" to double your move, then make the jump using all 60ft of your move for that round.

Yea this is how I would do it. Though if your not trying to abuse as you have stated, and talked to the DM, I would totally allow the rule of cool to apply here.

On a tangent, something like this came up in the last session I ran. I had the party fighting a boss fight that had rotating platforms they had to leap across to destroy certain pylons. Completely forgot about the awesomeness of the Barbarian. I had given him boots of springing and striding a few sessions ago and kind of forgot about them since they hadn't come into play. But the last session the Barbarian had haste casted on him. With the boots and strength score of 20 he was leaping across the map, causing death and destruction in his wake. It was mighty entertaining.

[charcoalninja]

I vote that the rule be completely removed. It's a terrible rule that serves 0 purpose other than to punish athletic characters. Is jumping faster than your speed ever really a problem? I can't fathom a situation where it could be anything but awesome.

[Atmosk]

When you perform a running long jump you have to move atleast 10 feet before performing the jump, a standing long jump's distance is halved. So If you cast jump as an action your first turn then took the dash action the following turn you could either make a 50 foot running jump covering a total of 60 feet or a 30 foot standing jump followed by 30 movement worth of running, swimming etc.

Not a very useful or interesting way to use your resources, but yeah that's how jump works by RAW.

Anyway, does anyone see a reason why jump shouldn't be house ruled to decrease the movement cost from a foot for a foot to a foot for three feet?

[Naanomi]

I vote that the rule be completely removed. It's a terrible rule that serves 0 purpose other than to punish athletic characters. Is jumping faster than your speed ever really a problem? I can't fathom a situation where it could be anything but awesome.
Shoot around the world hundreds of feat a round? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391682-Boing!

[charcoalninja]

Shoot around the world hundreds of feat a round? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391682-Boing!

Like I said. I've yet to see an instance where this is anything but awesome.

[Kryx]

Like I said. I've yet to see an instance where this is anything but awesome.

If awesome = massively overpowered and unbalanced, yes.



Anyway, does anyone see a reason why jump shouldn't be house ruled to decrease the movement cost from a foot for a foot to a foot for three feet?

It increases complexity - two rulesets for jumping. Plus the massive jump linked above.

If you're going to do it then do it in another way: allow a dash like Expeditious Retreat does. However that is not the intention of Jump. Jump is primarily useful for jumping up so if you buff its ability to jump horizontally then it becomes much better than Expeditious Retreat

[Human Paragon 3]

If you could jump farther than your movement, everyone would move their movement then jump another 10-20 feet every single round. The world would be full of people jumping all the time constantly to get everywhere because it's so much faster, and in combat, every movement would end with a jump.

It would be ridiculous.

[Atmosk]

Im not sure if those jump multipliers all stack or not, but even if they do I cant see how jumping ridiculously far is necessarily imbalanced. Jumping on someone in combat doesn't provide any type of benefit that I know of and the increased mobility is only useful if your kiting, in which case:

A) Why is your DM letting you kite monsters?
B) Using fly or similar methods are safer/better

Outside of combat more mobility is slightly more useful, but if you need to go somewhere far away why not just teleport? In my campaign we have airships which is probably a much safer and comfortable way to travel. Horses are also an option, In any case the amount of time it takes to go somewhere is usually not important and if it is your DM will make sure you get there just in the nick of time no matter how you go about it. The only difference is whether or not you get to brag about jumping over Mt. Everest to all the barmaids.

I guess the plausibility of a warlock/monk/wizard who can jump 150 ft. could come into question, but subjective.

[charcoalninja]

If awesome = massively overpowered and unbalanced, yes.




It increases complexity - two rulesets for jumping. Plus the massive jump linked above.

If you're going to do it then do it in another way: allow a dash like Expeditious Retreat does. However that is not the intention of Jump. Jump is primarily useful for jumping up so if you buff its ability to jump horizontally then it becomes much better than Expeditious Retreat

Please. There's nothing OP about moving around quickly. Readied actions and opportunity attacks are a thing, as are fliers, as is teleporting. That link was a 20th level character with access to merely 4th level spells via warlock. Oh so scarey.

A 20th level anyone else is doing other things far more powerful than running 900 feet a round burning all of their actions, like actually killing things, or entire cities, or animating armies of deathmachines or transforming the party into dragons, or having unlimited hp.

But sure. Building your character solely for the ability to run fast is OP. Gimmi a break.

[Once a Fool]

Combat in D&D is not assumed to be a series of sequential actions taken by one individual while everyone else remains static. The turn structure merely breaks down a fluid abstract into mechanical pieces. For this reason, there is no real narrative reason to worry about someone moving away from a character that demonstrates great hang-time. Or any of the other apparent oddities that such leaps could produce.

If you do make such a character, though, be sure to name him "Air" Jordan. (Does that reference date me?)


Simply becaue turns and rounds are the ONLY way you can have a table-top game

While I agree with the rest of your post, I have to call this out as untrue. I point to Dungeon World as an example of a table-top RPG that has neither rounds, nor formalized turns. It's mechanics are triggered by narrative, so it has no need for the artifice of rounds, nor the sequence of turns within them.

[Kryx]

I cant see how jumping ridiculously far is necessarily imbalanced.

It's the massively increased movement. There is a reason the spells are at the power level that they are. I explained it above, but that doesn't seem important to you.

[Atmosk]

It's the massively increased movement. There is a reason the spells are at the power level that they are. I explained it above, but that doesn't seem important to you.

You didn't explain why increasing movement is a problem at any point in this thread, if you do not like the house ruling being discussed then that is your opinion, but that doesn't make it unbalanced.

[Naanomi]

Meh jumping over people to and from beyond their movement range and too high for anyone but the most dedicated snipers to shoot at while Eldritch Blasting them round after round could get moderately degenerate.

[Atmosk]

Meh jumping over people to and from beyond their movement range and too high for anyone but the most dedicated snipers to shoot at while Eldritch Blasting them round after round could get moderately degenerate.

If I'm not mistaken warlock gets expeditious retreat and fly which are both better options. Expeditious retreat because A) its a bonus action, B) gives 60 ft. a turn without any stat investment.

Flying is clearly better because running is for suckers.

[Naanomi]

This thread proposes an instant travel jump as part of your move; I need no bonus action. I'll take a 900ft jump over 30ft of flight any day; and at 400ft vertical clearance even fliers are going going to take a while to out altitude me.

[MinaBee]

You didn't explain why increasing movement is a problem at any point in this thread, if you do not like the house ruling being discussed then that is your opinion, but that doesn't make it unbalanced.

The ability to move 60-90 feet in a round AND make your attacks is a Monk ability that takes HELLA levels to come online.

You should not be able to replicate that with a first level spell and the right stat spread.

Also, your house rule is needlessly complex, and it doesn't play well with the overall approach, style, and intent taken by the 5th edition rule set.

[Kryx]

You didn't explain why increasing movement is a problem at any point in this thread, if you do not like the house ruling being discussed then that is your opinion, but that doesn't make it unbalanced.

I explained exactly why it's unbalanced: it makes jump the prime choice over other options that are intended to be good for their own purposes. For instance expeditious retreat.

Beyond that extra movement is always nice. It allows you to get around the battlefield and get to the prime targets. It's not very easy to get and is the class feature of barbarians, monks, and rogues. Making it available to other classes in unintended ways devalues those class features and therefore those classes.


The ability to move 60-90 feet in a round AND make your attacks is a Monk ability that takes HELLA levels to come online.

You should not be able to replicate that with a first level spell and the right stat spread.

This is exactly my point.

Unbalanced doesn't mean "OMG OVERPOWERED". It simply means the system and classes are balanced around this not working how he is proposing.

[charcoalninja]

I explained exactly why it's unbalanced: it makes jump the prime choice over other options that are intended to be good for their own purposes. For instance expeditious retreat.

Beyond that extra movement is always nice. It allows you to get around the battlefield and get to the prime targets. It's not very easy to get and is the class feature of barbarians, monks, and rogues. Making it available to other classes in unintended ways devalues those class features and therefore those classes.



This is exactly my point.

Unbalanced doesn't mean "OMG OVERPOWERED". It simply means the system and classes are balanced around this not working how he is proposing.

Expeditious retreat actually lets you turn with it, Use it indoors, or when swimming. Fly actually lets you hover and constantly engage enemies in mid air possibly thousands of feet up. Jump lets you move in a straight line somewhere and though cool for sure, has severe limitations that ensure that it's not a problem.

As for fixing the issue with a house rule:
I recommend making jump it's own move action. Thus a character can leap at an enemy, by spending their movement to make the jump, either leaping from standing or moving 10' first and jumping at their option, and thus allowing them to make an attack, or grab onto something with their action at any point in the movement.

Since you're trading you move action to do this, it has a defined cost, the distance you travel using it is solely based on your skill and you can't tack a jump on the end of your actual movement.

Seems elegant and functional on the surface at least.

[Kryx]

Do you mean bonus action? There is no move action.

If that's the case just take the wording from Expeditious Retreat and apply it to jumping. It's likely the move balanced option for what he wants.

[charcoalninja]

Do you mean bonus action? There is no move action.

If that's the case just take the wording from Expeditious Retreat and apply it to jumping. It's likely the move balanced option for what he wants.

No, I'm saying make it a move action.

Edit: if you make it a bonus action then you have everyone A) jumping around all the time because it's faster which is dumb, and B) you limit jumping to once per round forcing it to compete with other build defining abilities such as two weapon fighting. By making Jump it's own movement action that can replace an instant of movement such as dash, you ensure that jumping isn't abused to go a bit faster (by jumping at the end of their movement) resolve the verisimilatude issue of jumping being restricted by your speed (I somehow jump a shorter distance after a 20' run than a 10' run if I'm REALLY good at jumping which is the current situation) and you open up cool acrobatic manuevers to the classes that SHOULD have them such as rogue and Monk by allowing them to substitute their awesome leaps for their additional bonus action Dashes. Ninja's jumping around stabbing people is awesome and an iconic fantasy fighting style that this houserule allows.

[Kryx]

No, I'm saying make it a move action.

There is no move action in 5e. You have movement which is limited to your normal speed.

[charcoalninja]

There is no move action in 5e. You have movement which is limited to your normal speed.

That's why it's a houserule -_-.

How is this a difficult concept? All I am saying is do this:
Change Movement from "move up to your speed" to "Move up to your speed OR perform a jump. Jumps are no longer limited in distance by your speed."

See? Simple. Both jump and expeditious maintain their functionality, jump makes your jump bigger, exped lets you jump twice a turn.

[JAL_1138]

If you could jump farther than your movement, everyone would move their movement then jump another 10-20 feet every single round. The world would be full of people jumping all the time constantly to get everywhere because it's so much faster, and in combat, every movement would end with a jump.

It would be ridiculous.

Sooo...Morrowind (or any Bethesda game) with a maxed-out Acrobatics, then.

[ProphetSword]

How is this a difficult concept? All I am saying is do this:
Change Movement from "move up to your speed" to "Move up to your speed OR perform a jump. Jumps are no longer limited in distance by your speed."


So what happens if I have 40' of movement, and as part of that movement I have to clear a 10' pit in the middle of that movement? With this rule, it would require three rounds. I would need to run up to the pit and stop. Jump the following round. And then continue my movement.

Nope. Can't see that working.

[Kryx]

Simple.

Any houserule where you have to add an action to the action economy is the antithesis of simple.

[charcoalninja]

Any houserule where you have to add an action to the action economy is the antithesis of simple.

Yeah... Beg to differ. You're defining an already existing mechanic.

Regarding running up to a 10' pit to clear it, as it stands now it takes 2 rounds to do anyway. If the jump is at the end if your movement you can't clear it because somehow running 25' means our 24 Str athletic Barbarian with boots of striding and springing magically makes him unable to clear a 5' gap he could hop over with ease any other time. Both have their issues, but I'd rather manage actions than deal with Batroc the Leaper being unable to do just that because reasons.

Edit: Also forgot to add, but my rule would let you do it in one round, you'd just have to burn your action on it, unless you were a monk or rogue in which case you'd use your bonus mid movement.

[ProphetSword]

Regarding running up to a 10' pit to clear it, as it stands now it takes 2 rounds to do anyway.

It does not take 2 rounds to do it. I specified the pit is in the middle of that movement. With 40' of movement, I can move 20' toward the pit, jump 10' over it and then move an additional 10'. Now that is simple, and it doesn't take 3 rounds to accomplish.

The idea of adding a ruling that allows an either/or condition on jumping or moving needlessly complicates simple rules and slows down gameplay.

[C-Dude]

I am reminded of this comic by the Giant:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html

It seems the problem with jump is that it is not defined as a velocity like other movements but rather as a distance. If I were seeking a house rule, I would say that jumping defines the velocity of the motion but if you are combining motion types you take the lowest as your limit.

That is, if you have a land speed of 30 but a horizontal jump speed of 60, you could jump the total 60 feet in one movement or run 10 feet, jump 10 feet, and run another 10 feet in one movement (for a total of 30 feet, the limit defined by the lowest velocity 'run'). This also makes sense for vertical jumps: it's rather hard to jump straight up when you've been running at full speed, what with inertia and all.


I'd also say there needs to be some drawback to jumping, such as granting advantage to ranged attacks against you as you pass since you're up in the air (You know, the opposite of prone). It could give disadvantage to melee attacks to balance, since airborne is sort of the anti-prone.
Just a brainstorm, take or leave what you please.

EDIT: Yes, you could run 25 feet and start a jump, ending the turn in midair and finishing the jump the following turn. This would be a classic case of granting the Airborne state; advantage to ranged attacks against you and disadvantage to melee attacks against you.
In such an instance you would move 30 feet the first turn, and 55 feet the following turn if you make the full jump.

[Atmosk]

Under the section about jumping theres a passage that says: "In some circumstances, your DM might allow you to make a strength (athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can."

So if you really want to stay true to the RAW then I guess you could force the player to make checks each turn.

My DM did get back to me tho, he was fine with 60 ft. jumps in combat.