Sanity Check these Tigers please.

[Elkad]

Trying to downsize tigers for a Druid who wants to keep the same one from L1. So I need a L1 and L4 version for animal companionhood.
This is for an essentially Core game. Druids have a houserule that they can choose either Wild Shape or Animal Companion, and she wants "a big kitty".

I started with the SRD base - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm

For Young, I reduced by 2hd, 1 size category(-2str/+2dex, reduced damage die), and an additional -4str -2con adjustment, -1 Natural Armor, adjusted skill points, and removed Improved Natural Attack-Bite

Same reductions again for Cub, also removing INA-Claw. Added Weapon Finesse(B). Some internal debate about taking away Pounce (or Rake?) at the same time, I left it in for now. How about Dex to Climb/Jump?

Please sanity/proofread my stat adjustments, and any feedback about power level compared to normal L1 and L4 companions would be great as well. Is the cub OK vs the standard Wolf companion?

I actually didn't even look at the rules for reducing creatures, I built it by hand (looking at Leopard for the youth, and trying to beat the Faerun lynx for cub, since the Lynx is pretty weak)

Tiger Youth
Size/Type: Medium Animal (3/4BAB, Good Fort+Reflex, Skills 2+int)
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (28 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+0 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d6+3) and bite +2 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d6+1
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +2 (Base +4,+4,+1)
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills(7): Balance +7(0), Hide +8(1)*, Listen +3(0), Move Silently +10(3), Spot +3(0), Swim +6(3)
Feats: Alertness, and Improved Natural Attack (claw).
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3?
Advancement: 6-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —
Young Tiger, 180lbs

Combat
Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a tiger must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Pounce (Ex)
If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Rake (Ex)
Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d6+1.

Skills
Tigers have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

Cub edit. Removed erroneous +1 dmg on claw attacks.
Edit2. Added +1 size bonus to attacks.
Tiger Cub
Size/Type: Small Animal (3/4BAB, Good Fort+Reflex, Skills 2+int)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 size, +4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d3+0)
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d3+0) and bite +2 melee (1d4+0)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d4+0
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +1 (Base +3,+3,+0)
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills(5): Balance +8(0), Hide +13(1)*, Listen +3(0), Move Silently +11(3), Spot +3(0), Swim +1(1)
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse(Bonus)
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 2? 1?
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —
Tiger Cub, 80lbs

Combat
Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a tiger must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Pounce (Ex)
If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Rake (Ex)
Attack bonus +5 melee, damage 1d4+0.

Skills
Tigers have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.Tiger Cub (Bobcat?)

[DrMotives]

You could also just use these: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm

These jungle cats are about 4 feet long and weigh about 120 pounds. They usually hunt at night. The statistics presented here can describe any feline of similar size, such as jaguars, panthers, and mountain lions.

Right there, that's a generic "big cat" stat block that's 3 HD, CR 2 and all the work done for you.

[Elkad]

You could also just use these: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm

Right there, that's a generic "big cat" stat block that's 3 HD, CR 2 and all the work done for you.

There was nothing to work from for a suitable cat pet for a L1 druid that I could find. So in making the cub, getting the in-between step of the Youth was easy. It should match up to the Leopard fairly well (1 more HD, lower dex, loss of climb speed and bonus, different skill allocation.)

[OldTrees1]

Well you can compare them to existing options like so:

Cub:
Dog: 1HD Small Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Wolf: 2HD Medium Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Young:
Cheetah/Leopard: 3HD Medium Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Tiger: 6HD Large Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

So I would probably go
1HD Small -> 3HD Medium -> 6HD Large
13/19/13 Str/Dex/Con -> 19/17/15 Str/Dex/Con -> 23/15/17 Str/Dex/Con

[Karl Aegis]

Both of them manage to fit into the level - 3 category with the leopard and the dire badger.

[Elkad]

Both of them manage to fit into the level - 3 category with the leopard and the dire badger.

So what gets the cub down to Wolf (top of the L1 category)? Keeping 2HD please.

Loss of Pounce and Rake? Finesse? All of the above?

[OldTrees1]

So what gets the cub down to Wolf (top of the L1 category)? Keeping 2HD please.

Loss of Pounce and Rake? Finesse? All of the above?

Wolf: 2HD Medium Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Cub: 2HD Small Str 11, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Have Cub be Medium with Str 13, Dex 15 and Con 15?

[DrMotives]

Just remembered the lynx stats from Races of the Faerûn, page 174. They're 1 HD, CR 1/2, Str 7, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7, and they have pounce. Seems not too dissimilar to your cubs.

[Hiro Quester]

If it was me, I'd make the young tiger exactly based on the leopard's stats and abilities. And I'd make the cub exactly like a riding dog's stats. I'd even give it the ability to learn to trip from druid levels 1-3.

Having the rake damage be 1d6 as a youth seems too high. The leopard gets 1d3 plus 1/2 str. That seems more balanced.

It would probably be good to make the pounce and rake attacks come in slowly. E.g. Rake and pounce at level 4.

Having it switch from dex to strength for climb and jump seems odd. And dex getting lower 19 cub ->17 youth seems odd too. Why not just make the cub stats equivalent to the riding dog (15,15,15,2,12,6) and bite attack the same dice for damage, etc. and the young tiger basically be a striped leopard, and leave it like that?

You will also want to control for the increases the druid's AC gets as the druid levels. The leveled up from a cub tiger at 7th level shouldn't be tougher that the one other Druids get at 7th. Honestly it's often still as melee effective as a fighter.

The extra +4 to HD and natural armor, and +2 to str/dex, on top of the Tiger's already impressive stats, would be overpowered.

Perhaps just rule that the cub becomes a young tiger (stripey leopard) at druid level 4, and becomes a full grown tiger at level 7, (and you could even give the player the option of it growing into a level-adjusted tougher tiger as normal, or growing into a dire tiger at 16th, but losing all the level adjustments).

The benefits to longer history together of 3 extra tricks known, plus shared history, loyalty, etc, would probably be sufficient.

[Elkad]

Have Cub be Medium with Str 13, Dex 15 and Con 15?

Is a couple points of stats more of an issue than 3-5 attacks (at very low dmg) vs the wolf with 1 attack+trip?


Just remembered the lynx stats from Races of the Faerûn, page 174. They're 1 HD, CR 1/2, Str 7, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7, and they have pounce. Seems not too dissimilar to your cubs.

Yup, I looked at that too. CR½ is pretty weak for a companion, was trying to squeeze up to Wolf power. I do think I may have gone over though (plus I've already caught 2 mistakes since I originally posted.)

[MilesTiden]

Have you considered the Serval from Sandstorm? Small size, 1 HD, CR 1, 12/17/13, improved grab, pounce, and rake. Maybe lower the stats a bit and give it one more HD? It's actually a normal starting animal companion for druids.

[Elkad]

If it was me, I'd make the young tiger exactly based on the leopard's stats and abilities. And I'd make the cub exactly like a riding dog's stats.
I'd even give it the ability to learn to trip from druid levels 1-3.
Trying to avoid a reflavored dog here. More attacks for less damage is catlike. As is pounce instead of trip.


Having the rake damage be 1d6 as a youth seems too high. The leopard gets 1d3 plus 1/2 str. That seems more balanced.
Youth does have INA-Claw still. Tiger flavor says rake is same die as claw. Think I'll split it and go with 1d4+½str


You will also want to control for the increases the druid's AC gets as the druid levels. The leveled up from a cub tiger at 7th level shouldn't be tougher that the one other Druids get at 7th. Honestly it's often still as melee effective as a fighter.

The extra +4 to HD and natural armor, and +2 to str/dex, on top of the Tiger's already impressive stats, would be overpowered.

Perhaps just rule that the cub becomes a young tiger (stripey leopard) at druid level 4, and becomes a full grown tiger at level 7, (and you could even give the player the option of it growing into a level-adjusted tougher tiger as normal, or growing into a dire tiger at 16th, but losing all the level adjustments).

The benefits to longer history together of 3 extra tricks known, plus shared history, loyalty, etc, would probably be sufficient.

Bit of a misunderstanding there. Intent is to replace the pet (thus resetting druid level adjustments). The replacement is just flavored as "the same pet, grown up a bit" with the new stat block. At 4 and 7, Druid would have the Young or standard Tiger as written, not with the stat/NA boosts on top.

[Karl Aegis]

Tiger vs Wolf
AC: 16 vs 14
Saves: +4 +7 +1 vs +5 +5 +1
Skills: Tiger adds Swim to Class Skills
Racial Skill Mods: +12 total (+16 under common circumstances) vs +4 when tracking (Not even all the time)
Attacks on charge: 5 vs 1

The list keeps getting bigger. If you want more skills, you need to give up something. Wolves and Riding Dogs already give Fighters in Splint Mail a run for their money. They don't need to be better than Rogues at sneaking as well.

[Elkad]

Have you considered the Serval from Sandstorm? Small size, 1 HD, CR 1, 12/17/13, improved grab, pounce, and rake. Maybe lower the stats a bit and give it one more HD? It's actually a normal starting animal companion for druids.

Ooh! Missed that one. Thanks.

More proof that I should probably give up on the 2nd hit die though.

[Hiro Quester]

The serval does seem ideal stats. But only one HD seems very fragile. The second HD seems appropriate to me for a tiny tiger.

Does it seem weird to have dex to jump at early levels then not later? It would seem appropriate to drop that, give it a couple of points more str for its jumps and attacks instead, and less dex (e.g. 15,15, 13 instead of 12, 17,13?) and treat that as a tiger cub.

[OldTrees1]

Is a couple points of stats more of an issue than 3-5 attacks (at very low dmg) vs the wolf with 1 attack+trip?

I don't think it would be a problem either way. But if I wanted to hedge against argument, I would adjust numbers since they are more visible than abilities.

[Bronk]

If you're going to do this for your player anyway, why not go all out? Start with a baby tiger with house cat stats, go through lynx, serval, leopard, tiger, dire tiger, and finally homebrew a decent legendary template to overlay the dire tiger.

I love the pictures and descriptions of legendary animals, but their stats don't back it up, not even with their size.

If you go epic, go for the behemoth template (maybe even before).

That progression would be fun for the player, and would at least start to make up for missing out on wild shape.