Belkar & Elan Prophecy Collision [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

rev elc eman

2015-01-24, 08:39 PM

I had an odd idea about a possible intersection between the prophecies about Belkar's death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) and Elan's happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).

Specifically, what if the Oracle meant Belkar's death in a "certain point of view" way of looking at things and that Belkar will really survive past the one year deadline? To paraphrase Obi-Wan the Oracle could eventually say something like "Your ranger was unseduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be a psycopath and became mild mannered. When that happened, the evil halfling who was your ranger was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."

That could then influence whether or not Elan agrees that "for him" the story has a happy ending since in the illusory happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html), Elan's at least temporarily unhappy about Belkar's death. If Belkar survives by turning over a new leaf, maybe he'll retire from adventuring and start a restaurant (with bread supplied by Inkyrius).

One potential problem with is the fact that the Oracle acknowledged (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) that at least some complicated verbal games to change the meaning of a prophecy don't fly, and he was pretty explicit about Belkar drawing his last breath, but it could be fun.

Jaxzan Proditor

2015-01-24, 08:50 PM

Like other interpretations of Belkar's prophecy, it is possible that the Oracle was fudging things in some way, either by being ultra-literal (e.g. Belkar becomes Undead and therefore draws no breath) or by being a little more abstract, like you suggested. I tend toward the interpretation that Belkar's prophecy will not be subverted.

Also, I think that Elan's happy ending will be more influenced by things like the Order's success, defeating Tarquin, and having Roy and Haley live, although Belkar turning over a less bitter leaf would probably make him happy.

littlebum2002

2015-01-24, 09:15 PM

Belkars prophecy may indeed be subverted, but "he is going to draw his last breath before the end of the year".and "he shouldn't bother finding his IRA" don't really fit your conclusion

YossarianLives

2015-01-24, 09:18 PM

Honestly I think Belkar getting vamped is definitely the most likely interpretation of the prophecy.

ti'esar

2015-01-24, 10:23 PM

The whole point of the "for you" was to establish that a happy ending for Elan didn't necessarily mean a happy ending for everyone, and his character development in BRitF just reinforces that. While Elan will be presumably sad when (and I for one do think it's "when") Belkar dies, I don't see it as being an issue with his prophecy.

Rogar Demonblud

2015-01-24, 10:49 PM

Plus, if memory serves, the Giant has stated outright that Belkar's death will be DEATH, not some semantical twist.

Ron Miel

2015-01-25, 02:31 AM

Plus, if memory serves, the Giant has stated outright that Belkar's death will be DEATH, not some semantical twist.

I don't recall seeing any such quote. Can you find it?

To help, here's the index of The Giant's comments.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335909-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-III-We-ve-Left-a-Banana-In-Charge

rodneyAnonymous

2015-01-25, 02:36 AM

Plus, if memory serves, the Giant has stated outright that Belkar's death will be DEATH, not some semantical twist.

That is not true.

goto124

2015-01-25, 04:47 AM

(e.g. Belkar becomes Undead and therefore draws no breath)

We already have Durkula!

Jaxzan Proditor

2015-01-25, 10:10 AM

Plus, if memory serves, the Giant has stated outright that Belkar's death will be DEATH, not some semantical twist.
I doubt it, or else it probably would have been referenced before now in previous threads.

We already have Durkula!
Actually, the High Priest of Hel's presence make it easier for him to become a vampire, though the details of vampirization show that becoming a vampire isn't really keeping Belkar around.

rev elc eman

2015-01-25, 03:03 PM

I definitely leaned towards it being an odd thought, and I completely forgot about the IRA reference which makes it less likely still; sorry about that.

ti'esar

2015-01-25, 03:35 PM

though the details of vampirization show that becoming a vampire isn't really keeping Belkar around.

That's an excellent point. I'm not sure why people continue to think that becoming a vampire is a good way to "cheat" Belkar's prophecy now that we know what vampires actually are.

Peelee

2015-01-25, 03:55 PM

That's an excellent point. I'm not sure why people continue to think that becoming a vampire is a good way to "cheat" Belkar's prophecy now that we know what vampires actually are.

Same reason "he becomes good, so his old self is 'dead'" keeps lingering. People don't think, "i like this character, and fundamentally changing who he is may alter how i feel about him."

ti'esar

2015-01-25, 04:11 PM

Same reason "he becomes good, so his old self is 'dead'" keeps lingering. People don't think, "i like this character, and fundamentally changing who he is may alter how i feel about him."

But a vampire Belkar would literally be a different character. At best he'd impersonate the real Belkar.

Keltest

2015-01-25, 04:14 PM

But a vampire Belkar would literally be a different character. At best he'd impersonate the real Belkar.

In a hypothetical desire like that, it isn't that far of a jump to say something like "Belkar could overpower the vampire spirit somehow!"

Ive certainly seen more outlandish theories about people Belkar could overpower once dead to regain a semblance of life. The IFCC for example.

BeerMug Paladin

2015-01-29, 07:16 PM

Wasn't there a comic making fun of the very idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) of using silly wordplay and questionable logic to circumvent plainly stated prophecies? Right before a plainly stated prophecy came true?

That's my answer to this question.

rodneyAnonymous

2015-01-29, 07:33 PM

It was not plainly stated, though. That's exactly what makes me (personally) suspicious: despite several opportunities, he never says "Belkar will die."

Windscion

2015-01-30, 12:21 PM

The one thing the oracle said "officially" was the bit about Belkar drawing his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year.

And for what it is worth, my money places the Belkster's death in the context of someone stomping Mr Scruffy and Belkar goes librarian-poo, not even caring about dying if he can get revenge. In the notes on BRitF, the giant said something about character deaths being due to their own agency (choices), not random factors.

Also, with regard to the OP: Even in the dream sequence//epic illusion Belkar dies and Elan isn't really perturbed.

Jasdoif

2015-01-30, 12:28 PM

In the notes on BRitF, the giant said something about character deaths being due to their own agency (choices), not random factors.He's mentioned that on the forums, too.
And I've never killed a developed character where that character's death wasn't a direct result of their own choices.

Peelee

2015-01-30, 12:54 PM

It was not plainly stated, though. That's exactly what makes me (personally) suspicious: despite several opportunities, he never says "Belkar will die."

In a world where resurrection exists, "will die" is not necessarily as final as "take his last breath ever."

The one thing the oracle said "officially" was the bit about Belkar drawing his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year.

OK, this always bothers me. Everything that the Oracle says can be regarded as "official." He speaks of the future constantly outside of the spotlight. From all indications, the only thing that makes a prophecy "official," as you say it, is that it passes through the memory charm. The Oracle even said, "you want it on the record?" As in, said in such a way that it would bypass the Memory Charm placed on the valley. His foretelling of his next death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) is not an "official" prophecy, but dollars to donuts says it's 100% accurate. And doesn't trigger the Memory Charm, as it appears it needs to be physically passed through to trigger.

dancrilis

2015-01-30, 01:23 PM

Keltest

2015-01-30, 01:29 PM

I personally find it more likely that Belkar survives by the Oracle seeing his death in the illusion, the funeral etc and not looking past it. Like he didn't bother to check if Roy would forget his trip when banished.

I highly doubt that Belkar would prove to be completely and utterly inconsequential to anything the Order does for the entire rest of his life.

Rakoa

2015-01-30, 02:02 PM

I have a feeling that Rich had the Oracle word the prophecy in the way he did ("draw his last breath") specifically to get people thinking about the ways it can come true without Belkar's permanent death just so that - surprise! - Belkar will permanently die anyway.

SirKazum

2015-01-30, 02:49 PM

Man, I just don't get why people go through all this effort to come up with those theories. Belkar is gonna die, folks, get over it. If anything, the "draw his last breath ever" line only makes it even more final - after all, as has been pointed out, Ressurrection and such mean that just dying isn't the end of the line. Belkar is not only dying, he's not getting brought back - which, honestly, isn't much of a surprise. It's a wonder the Good-aligned OOTS has hung on to him up to this point. If he dies, the whole "Roy keeping Belkar close to himself to make sure he doesn't wreak havoc" becomes a moot point, and if the quest is over or almost over by then, they won't need the additional fighter anyway. So nobody will bother ressurrecting the lil' guy.

As to why the Oracle used the specific words he did in different occasions rather than simply stating "Belkar will die" in a straightforward manner - well, part of making a good webcomic is writing good dialogue, and characters just rattling off information in the most straightforward way possible isn't good dialogue, it would be boring. The Oracle has a whole style of his own, which involves using a lot of figures of speech. Heck, that's part of why we love him so much.

And no, there's no conflict between Belkar's and Elan's prophecies. The oracle specifically said the happy ending was "for you (Elan), at least", which definitely opens up the possibility of at least one member of the OOTS ending badly. And the episode with the epic illusion helped develop Elan's character in regard to accepting that not everything has to be perfect for everyone all the time.

(For the record, I do think the simulacrum technically fulfills Elan's prophecy, though I'm aware of the Giant's comments on the topic, which is why I'm sure it will apply to the actual ending of the OOTS comic as well.)

Peelee

2015-01-30, 02:56 PM

(For the record, I do think the simulacrum technically fulfills Elan's prophecy, though I'm aware of the Giant's comments on the topic, which is why I'm sure it will apply to the actual ending of the OOTS comic as well.)

May I ask why? Not to start an argument or flout the authorial intent, but I don't understand how it can be seen as a happy ending. It wasn't a happy ending. Tarquin was a terrible person, and having Elan's mom end up back together with him was a terrible thing. That's even what snapped Elan out of it. It was rose-colored, sure, but it wasn't really happy.

SirKazum

2015-01-30, 03:20 PM

May I ask why? Not to start an argument or flout the authorial intent, but I don't understand how it can be seen as a happy ending. It wasn't a happy ending. Tarquin was a terrible person, and having Elan's mom end up back together with him was a terrible thing. That's even what snapped Elan out of it. It was rose-colored, sure, but it wasn't really happy.

No, I think it was a happy ending... and the fact that a lot of ugly truths (mainly revolving around Tarquin's evil) got swept under the rug for the purpose of making this ending as perfect as possible (for Elan, at least - sounds familiar?) is what tipped Elan off. Honestly, your question is surprising... I've seen people question this interpretation on the basis that it isn't an ending (or not the end), but not because it isn't happy. I thought the fact that it's a happy ending was pretty well-established - heck, it's even in the comic title. Not dismissing your question - it's great to have all angles of a theory questioned - just saying why it sounds baffling to me.

(In any event, it is an ending, even if not the end, and it's contained within Elan's story, so - assuming it's happy - it does fulfill the prophecy of the story having a happy ending... for Elan, at least. In fact, more for him than for anyone else. Again, I still believe the prophecy will also be fulfilled by the very-definitely-final ending of the OOTS comic.)

littlebum2002

2015-01-30, 03:22 PM

dancrilis

2015-01-30, 04:57 PM

I highly doubt that Belkar would prove to be completely and utterly inconsequential to anything the Order does for the entire rest of his life.

Which has nothing to do with what I said.
In the illusion Belkar died and Elan got a happy ending - so the Oracle could have been fooled (as could a reader).

Imagine that the Giant wrote that ending over the course of 50+ stripes (or hundreds) who can blame the Oracle for not seeing how it all ended given that the questions he was answering were answered.

As an unrelated aside - the Oracle could be deliberately trying to keep Belkar alive by spilling hints and letting Roy remember them, after all if the Order lose without Belkar he might be a bit screwed, thereby he could have mentioned the prophecy to be self-defeating.

Ultimately I think that the most obvious Belkar will die is the most likely - but the two above I don't see is beyond the realm of the narrative (even if some people would likely complain that they are cheap ways out - but some people will complain no matter what).

Jasdoif

2015-01-30, 05:21 PM

Honestly, your question is surprising... I've seen people question this interpretation on the basis that it isn't an ending (or not the end), but not because it isn't happy. I thought the fact that it's a happy ending was pretty well-established - heck, it's even in the comic title. Not dismissing your question - it's great to have all angles of a theory questioned - just saying why it sounds baffling to me.The ending of the illusion was centered around the realization that the happiness in the illusion was fake. "Happiness is fake" does not strike me as the tone of a happy ending :smalltongue:

Keltest

2015-01-30, 05:21 PM

Which has nothing to do with what I said.
In the illusion Belkar died and Elan got a happy ending - so the Oracle could have been fooled (as could a reader).

Imagine that the Giant wrote that ending over the course of 50+ stripes (or hundreds) who can blame the Oracle for not seeing how it all ended given that the questions he was answering were answered.

As an unrelated aside - the Oracle could be deliberately trying to keep Belkar alive by spilling hints and letting Roy remember them, after all if the Order lose without Belkar he might be a bit screwed, thereby he could have mentioned the prophecy to be self-defeating.

Ultimately I think that the most obvious Belkar will die is the most likely - but the two above I don't see is beyond the realm of the narrative (even if some people would likely complain that they are cheap ways out - but some people will complain no matter what).

It has everything to do with what you said, unless you think the Oracle literally never looked at the Order beyond Elan's vision at all, ever. Because that would be the only way Belkar could participate without the Oracle noticing.

Rakoa

2015-01-30, 06:18 PM

It has everything to do with what you said, unless you think the Oracle literally never looked at the Order beyond Elan's vision at all, ever. Because that would be the only way Belkar could participate without the Oracle noticing.

Is there any evidence that the Oracle has looked further into the future of the Order? The only example I can think of is Elan's happy story, but that just means that Elan's happy story doesn't necessarily involve Belkar.

Jasdoif

2015-01-30, 06:37 PM

Is there any evidence that the Oracle has looked further into the future of the Order? The only example I can think of is Elan's happy story, but that just means that Elan's happy story doesn't necessarily involve Belkar.Well, Durkon hasn't returned to his homeland yet. Even in the illusion, Illusory-Durkon said he's still exiled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html).

littlebum2002

2015-01-30, 07:43 PM

The ending of the illusion was centered around the realization that the happiness in the illusion was fake. "Happiness is fake" does not strike me as the tone of a happy ending :smalltongue:

Stop reading after strip #887.

Do you see a happy ending?

Keltest

2015-01-30, 07:54 PM

Stop reading after strip #887.

Do you see a happy ending?

I don't see any sort of ending. As Elan pointed out, one of the things that was wrong was that his part of the story just sort of drifted away without being dealt with, hovering around but not showing up even when it logically should.

dancrilis

2015-01-31, 03:12 PM

It has everything to do with what you said, unless you think the Oracle literally never looked at the Order beyond Elan's vision at all, ever. Because that would be the only way Belkar could participate without the Oracle noticing.

Not think precisely - but it is a possibility.

Further as for Durkon it is possible that the Oracle sees snapshots rather then the full story (unless he looks).

So he could have seen panel six of page 886, and panel 7 of 887 - and went 'dead and gone Belkar'.
For Elan he could have seen page 887 in its entirety and went 'happy ending for Elan'.
For Durkon he could have seen a trip home (that is yet to be in the comic).

We simply don't know with absolute certainty unless the Giant wants to confirm if they have been met by Oracle standards.

Note that I don't consider these the most likely - merely possible.

Keltest

2015-01-31, 03:51 PM

Not think precisely - but it is a possibility.

Further as for Durkon it is possible that the Oracle sees snapshots rather then the full story (unless he looks).

So he could have seen panel six of page 886, and panel 7 of 887 - and went 'dead and gone Belkar'.
For Elan he could have seen page 887 in its entirety and went 'happy ending for Elan'.
For Durkon he could have seen a trip home (that is yet to be in the comic).

We simply don't know with absolute certainty unless the Giant wants to confirm if they have been met by Oracle standards.

Note that I don't consider these the most likely - merely possible.

I think its entirely probable that he doesn't see the entire story every time he looks into the future, however it behooves him to understand the context of the event in order to properly tell people so as to prevent them from seeking refunds. Also, the 4th wall doesn't exist for him. The same thing that would let him see what was going on in the vision would let him understand that it was an illusion right from the start.

Peelee

2015-01-31, 04:56 PM

Stop reading after strip #887.

Do you see a happy ending?

No. I see them trapped in an illusion, thinking they are living on their lives. If I were to stop reading, that would be an incredibly depressing ending. It isn't even a happy ending "for Elan." Elan is trapped, for seemingly all of time, and no way to get out of it. Sure, he thinks it's all nice, but it's not. Oracle didn't say, "Yes. At least, you'll think it is." Elan would still be getting a terrible, depressing, downer ending - being trapped in his own mind until the Linear Guild or Xykon and Redcloak kill him, or the Plan is enacted, or various other ways for him to be slaughtered.

BannedInSchool

2015-01-31, 05:04 PM

Elan's actually the Snarl and we don't want him to be happy. :smallwink:

SirKazum

2015-01-31, 05:55 PM

No. I see them trapped in an illusion, thinking they are living on their lives. If I were to stop reading, that would be an incredibly depressing ending. It isn't even a happy ending "for Elan." Elan is trapped, for seemingly all of time, and no way to get out of it. Sure, he thinks it's all nice, but it's not. Oracle didn't say, "Yes. At least, you'll think it is." Elan would still be getting a terrible, depressing, downer ending - being trapped in his own mind until the Linear Guild or Xykon and Redcloak kill him, or the Plan is enacted, or various other ways for him to be slaughtered.

Well OK, if we look at what's really going on - which we as readers knew, although Elan himself didn't at first - then being trapped in a dungeon and living an illusion is quite sad... or is it? False or not, the OOTS actually felt happy at the time. I guess this veers into a more philosophical debate over whether being deceived into happiness is really happiness or not - in other words, whether Cypher had the right idea in Matrix. Regardless, I think it can be argued that an illusional happy ending is still a happy ending. It's not a completely uncontroversial interpretation, I agree, but I think it could count if it really came to that.

Although the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecies so far has been in the most straightforward way possible - Vaarsuvius did get ultimate arcane power by saying the right four words to the right people for the wrong reasons, Haley did get her speech back by accepting the "gift horse" of Nale's date (although there were twists to that story), Xykon did get to Girard's gate before Kraagor's, and despite his attempts to rules-lawyer-up a more obscure interpretation, the Oracle did get murdered by Belkar. The only outcome that's shaping up to be a subversion of expectations is Durkon getting back to his homeland as a vampire (if that's how it turns out), although even then it's a minor subversion.

Jasdoif

2015-01-31, 06:01 PM

Well OK, if we look at what's really going on"What's really going on" is the story, the one that's presumably supposed to have a happy ending.

rodneyAnonymous

2015-01-31, 07:48 PM

So the Oracle can see into the illusion, but doesn't know it's an illusion? Uh...

littlebum2002

2015-01-31, 08:07 PM

SirKazum

2015-01-31, 09:01 PM

Me too, actually. Once again, I do believe Elan's prophecy applies to the "real" end of the OOTS's story. I'm just trying to argue that the illusion offers another potential interpretation of it. No, I don't think the Oracle "believes" the illusion is real or whatever. Just that, if you want to get really technical about it (sorta along the lines of what he did with Belkar's "killing people" prophecy, though arguably a little better substantiated), it could count.

BenbaBoffin3025

2015-01-31, 09:24 PM

So, in roleplaying games, it is rather hard to get rid of a character "for ever" but....
We have seen it happen in this strip before. Does anyone remember what happened to the "Greek" pantheon? Personally, the only way I can see a character being "destroyed to the point of _______ (fill in the blank)" is for the fundamental nature of the world to be change. Which is essentially what the Snarl is. So, maybe, the Snarl will devour the Belkster, and that is why he will "draw his last breath ever."

Or maybe, Belkster will be so content tormenting the souls of the damned that he will not want to be resurrected. He is, after all, a little demon.

YossarianLives

2015-01-31, 11:48 PM

I think Belkar will die, and finally. But I'd like to occasionally see cutaways to him going on rampages in hell.:smallamused:

dancrilis

2015-02-01, 05:40 PM

I think Belkar will die, and finally. But I'd like to occasionally see cutaways to him going on rampages in hell.:smallamused:

Whether Belkar's alignment shifts out of evil or not remains to be seen - but I don't see any evidence that it might shift to lawful so I doubt that we would see him rampaging in hell.

iyaerP

2015-02-06, 08:19 PM

I think that the crystal golem will kill Belkar. I was going through the archives, and in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html I notice that belkar says: "You, kill me? Never going to happen." Right before he dropped her like the bass. And given that we know that the Giant likes to foreshadow, AND has plotted out the entire comic arcs in advance, that would be an awesome call-back. Also, we know that given her high DR, the Crystal Golem would be highly resistant to Belkar's preferred method of attack, as DR is best against multiple rapid attacks, like those of Belkar.

Ramien

2015-02-07, 03:26 AM

ti'esar

2015-02-07, 03:36 AM

Won't happen.
A flashback panel near the end foretells that Belkar will save Hinjo's life twice. We've only see it happen once so far, so until he shows up again, Belkar's fairly safe.

That's not a certainty. Depending on interpretation,
Belkar may have saved Hinjo's life twice during the Battle of Azure City.

Though either way, I think he's perfectly safe now. Could the Crystal golem kill him at some point in the distant future? Perhaps, but it would be extraordinarily anticlimactic on a couple of different levels for him to die at this moment.

Ramien

2015-02-07, 03:42 AM

That's not a certainty. Depending on interpretation,
Belkar may have saved Hinjo's life twice during the Battle of Azure City.

Though either way, I think he's perfectly safe now. Could the Crystal golem kill him at some point in the distant future? Perhaps, but it would be extraordinarily anticlimactic on a couple of different levels for him to die at this moment.

I only count once, and I'm having a hard time seeing a second time that would seem valid. Still, I'm betting Belkar survives to die at a bit more plot-critical moment.

rodneyAnonymous

2015-02-07, 04:40 AM

Is there any way that was supposed to be "Durkon will save Hinjo twice"? Because he did.

hamishspence

2015-02-07, 06:44 AM

I only count once, and I'm having a hard time seeing a second time that would seem valid. Still, I'm betting Belkar survives to die at a bit more plot-critical moment.

How about this one?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html

Is there any way that was supposed to be "Durkon will save Hinjo twice"? Because he did.

The strip showed Shojo's decision to free Belkar (with a Mark on him) on the advice of Sangwaan, his diviner. It was she who said "I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."