Sacrifices suitable of Sainthood

[Mr.Kraken]

We're starting a new campaign soon, and I'm playing as a monk/paladin with Vow of Poverty, Abstinence and Chastity. He's a really good guy, a servant of Phieran who helps those in need and lends his fists to those who can't protect themselves. My goal from the start is to achieve Sainthood and receive the Saint template (from Book of Exalted Deeds).

Thing is, I'm supposed to make a big sacrifice in order to be worthy of receiving it, not necessarily it involving my character's life. That has been posing as a problem for me as, you see, in real life the sacrifices most saints make is actually dying. Canonization occurs mostly after death.

As I'm planning on becoming a Saint without dying (not interested in the Risen Martyr PrC), I can't think of a good sacrifice suitable enough for achieving Sainthood.

Do you have any ideas so I can pass them on to my DM?

[BowStreetRunner]

The actual reason canonization occurs only after death in the real church is that in order to verify sainthood, miracles need to be attributed to situations where people prayed to the saint. Basically, they need to make sure he/she actually made it to heaven. Even if someone led a saintly life, some last-minute failure could theoretically muck things up.

Regardless of whether they needed to be dead before being canonized, not all saints were actually martyred. Many died of natural causes. So instead of some big, momentous, one-time sacrifice like giving your life to protect the innocent, think of long-term sacrifices associated with maintaining a state of virtue. If you look at the Seven Virtues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues) for example, each one would involve giving something up in order to attain the state. Living a life of Poverty, Humility, Chastity living on bread and water and wearing a hair shirt would be particularly saintly behavior, one would think.

[Karl Aegis]

You took Vow of Poverty on a Monk/Paladin. I think that is sacrifice enough.

[Jeff the Green]

Careful on real-life religion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) there.

I wouldn't say that any of the vow feats count as the major sacrifice needed to become a saint. After all, it requires Exalted feats anyway. It should be something important and not mechanical: giving up a primary personal goal to fight evil, allowing oneself to be tortured to spare others, or taking on other significant pains to relieve others'.

[Mr.Kraken]

You took Vow of Poverty on a Monk/Paladin. I think that is sacrifice enough.

Let me clarify, the full build will be gestalt Monk 20 // Paladin 5/Pious Templar 3/Sword of Righteousness 2/Divine Crusader 2/Swordsage 8

I tried to balance character fluff and optimization.

I don't think the vows would be suitable because they are their own reward, in a way. Not all ascetics become saints.

[Bronk]

You took Vow of Poverty on a Monk/Paladin. I think that is sacrifice enough.

I think you're totally right. This character isn't getting sainthood in character, it's part of his back story.

How about this. You were a super rich royal. You started out (at level 1?) by giving up your riches (the better to reap those sweet bonus feats). Later, you gave up your royal title to save the nation (maybe there was some imminent civil war that you headed off through this and a bunch of great diplomacy?) All of that is now in the past and has no direct bearing on your character. Done!

Killing yourself would defeat the purpose, and so would sacrificing someone else.

[Mr.Kraken]

BowStreetRunner, reading your reply something came up in my mind. Like I said before, I don't think a Vow feat should qualify as a sacrifice for sainthood, but living a life with one of the vows is hard, living with three is nigh-impossible. Maybe having one Vow feat wouldn't qualify as a sacrifice, but having three would?

Jeff the Green, I agree with you. Torture seems to be very saintly.

Bronk, my character's backstory is already defined, unfortunately. He was the son of two respected members of the church. His parents were constantly fighting against devils and demons. One day, his house was invaded by a succubus princess that managed to seduce his father. She made him kill his family. My character saw his father killing his mother and ran, but his father got to him and strangled him. Thinking him dead, his father killed himself.

My character survived and was taken in by the church. There, he was well taken care of by servants of Phieran. He volunteered to enter the Fists of Phieran, an order of warrior-monks who vow to protect those who can't fight for themselves. Becoming a full-fledged Fist, now he roams the earth, helping those in need and fighting tyranny, evil and corruption.

[Renen]

He took 20 levels of monk thats sacrifice worthy of becoming a demigod, let alone a saint.

But in all seriousness, you can just say that he DID die doing some noble thing, but his deity not only brought him back, but also made him a saint.
Or he could have been granted sainthood for slaying a lord of hell or some such.
Or he could have rescued a deity's avatar after it got severed from the divine connection, and was about to die because "reasons"

[Lightlawbliss]

Considering the various saints, torturing yourself while begging for other people to be forgiven of their sins is a rather common pass time.

[Renen]

Xept in DnD, where gods dont "forgive" sins. Your soul either goes to them or not, based on how holy you were.

[Karl Aegis]

Unless I'm missing something important, it looks like you sacrificed your ability to deal with Succubi or other evil outsiders with fly speeds. They can do whatever they want and you have no real way of stopping them. I think that's a good enough sacrifice.

[BowStreetRunner]

Careful on real-life religion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) there.
I didn't get that from real-life religion. I picked it all up from reading 'Hellblazer' and 'Constantine'. :smallbiggrin:

[Bronk]

BowStreetRunner, reading your reply something came up in my mind. Like I said before, I don't think a Vow feat should qualify as a sacrifice for sainthood, but living a life with one of the vows is hard, living with three is nigh-impossible. Maybe having one Vow feat wouldn't qualify as a sacrifice, but having three would?

Jeff the Green, I agree with you. Torture seems to be very saintly.

Bronk, my character's backstory is already defined, unfortunately. He was the son of two respected members of the church. His parents were constantly fighting against devils and demons. One day, his house was invaded by a succubus princess that managed to seduce his father. She made him kill his family. My character saw his father killing his mother and ran, but his father got to him and strangled him. Thinking him dead, his father killed himself.

My character survived and was taken in by the church. There, he was well taken care of by servants of Phieran. He volunteered to enter the Fists of Phieran, an order of warrior-monks who vow to protect those who can't fight for themselves. Becoming a full-fledged Fist, now he roams the earth, helping those in need and fighting tyranny, evil and corruption.

Hmm, that is an interesting back story... but remember, that would just be up to level 1. You have 20 more levels of back story to go through.

So, given that, I would first ask your DM if he'd allow the Saint template at all. It's kind of a weird template, after all, but more importantly he/she might have an idea for you, and it would pretty much have to be acceptable in that case.

Alternately, you could alter your back story:

He was the son of two respected (nobles who were) members of the church. His parents were constantly fighting against devils and demons. One day, his house was invaded by a succubus princess that managed to seduce his father. She made him kill his family. My character saw his father killing his mother and ran, but his father got to him and strangled him. Thinking him dead, his father killed himself. My character survived and was taken in by the church. There, he was well taken care of by servants of Phieran. He volunteered (as the sole noble heir, to donate all of his monies and lands to the church and) to enter the Fists of Phieran, an order of warrior-monks who vow to protect those who can't fight for themselves. Becoming a full-fledged Fist, now he roams the earth, helping those in need and fighting tyranny, evil and corruption. (Later, to prevent a civil war in his former lands, he renounced his noble title and passed it to a worthy leader for the region.) (or maybe allowed them to become a republic, etc.)

Basically, since you're still making your character, the sky is the limit. Heck, the story he knows might not even be the correct one... maybe he was mind whammied at some point or lied to in a well meaning, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda kind of way. He could find out the truth using diplomacy, quests, or a legend lore spell.

Another idea: You gave up your freedom somehow (prisoner exchange? demon slave? mixed with the torture idea from earlier?)... but you've overcome it by now.

Another idea: Having taken your various vows, you had to give them up at some point... maybe you had to take up a specific magic item to use against a demon or something, which broke your vow of poverty? Of course, having defeated the demon, all is forgiven and the vows reinstated.

Edit: Hmm, I see I've misinterpreted your character as starting out at L20... Still, see if you can work out that nobility angle, and you might be able to save the title to trade in later. That said... this is definitely something you'll have to work out with your DM!

Good luck!