Dragon template question

[j_spencer93]

Would the templates riddled, wandering, ravening, and nameless even be worth adding onto a single dragon?

[WhamBamSam]

You're going to have to explain what exactly you mean. Did you want to add them all to the same dragon? That's probably a bad idea, as they don't all fit together well. For instance, Nameless takes spellcasting away and puts a pretty big penalty on Int-based skills, meaning it actively works against Riddled and Spellhoarding. You also really start to dig into the dragon's Wis and some of its Wis based skills, making it significantly less perceptive and vulnerable to Wis damage/drain. Wandering also lowers the dragon's Con, which lowers the save DC against the breath weapon.

[Bad Wolf]

Would the templates riddled, wandering, ravening, and nameless even be worth adding onto a single dragon?

That'd be one f**ked up dragon.

[j_spencer93]

I meant all on one dragon but good point, that would be really bad. Are vampiric dragons a cool build? I plan on making a dragon that is supposed to represent all that is evil about the race, and he has been sealed away for a very long time only to reawaken because of the BBEG, and am wondering if a vampiric dragon would be a neat battle. IT will be a campaign where the players all play as dragons.

Also considering archdragon, epic dragon, advanced dragon, dracolich (possibly through 20 level deathmaster), and spellhoarding. ghostly was also a thought (lol just realized using deathmaster you could have a ghostly lich dragon.)

Have thought about a Disciple of Ashardalon with binder levels to use the Ashardalon vestige also just because that would be cool (maybe he is even seeking to revive Ashardalon) but idk. OR maybe both dragons with them working together.

[WhamBamSam]

I meant all on one dragon but good point, that would be really bad. Are vampiric dragons a cool build? I plan on making a dragon that is supposed to represent all that is evil about the race, and he has been sealed away for a very long time only to reawaken because of the BBEG, and am wondering if a vampiric dragon would be a neat battle. IT will be a campaign where the players all play as dragons.

Also considering archdragon, epic dragon, advanced dragon, dracolich (possibly through 20 level deathmaster), and spellhoarding. ghostly was also a thought (lol just realized using deathmaster you could have a ghostly lich dragon.)

Have thought about a Disciple of Ashardalon with binder levels to use the Ashardalon vestige also just because that would be cool (maybe he is even seeking to revive Ashardalon) but idk. OR maybe both dragons with them working together.Vampiric Dragons can be fun. If you want him casting spells, I'd recommend giving him a level of Dragonblood Sorcerer so he'll qualify for the Draconic Claw feat, which allows him to make a swift action claw attack if he cast a spell with a standard action cast time that round (even if it's a touch spell), giving him the chance to make a touch attack with a claw (dealing energy drain) and make another claw attack (also dealing energy drain) in the same round. Get some Fell Drain going on whatever spells he's using, make the base dragon a Shadow Dragon, and toss on Breath of Unlife, Quicken Breath, and maybe Ravening and some of the Energy Drain feats in Libris Mortis for good measure.

You can only become the normal type of lich through Death Master 20 or Dread Necro 20. I've said before that Dracolich is generally not as good as regular dragon advancement for the same CR increase if you care about casting. However, a Dracolich in a pile of possessable corpses with its phylactery hidden somewhere within 90ft of said corpses, is one of the most brutal pure melee fights that a party can face, especially if it also has the Xorvintaal template.

Archdragon is awesome, but the Evil version is less awesome than the Lawful and Chaotic ones. Maybe consider combining it with the above Dracolich setup, to try drawing out the fight long enough to do some real damage with the aura. A Hex Dragon (with a bunch of spells traded away for Draconic Auras, Tiger Claw Maneuvers through the variant Wyrm of War, and things before going Xorvintaal), a Howling Dragon, or a Gem Dragon (neither Xorvintaal nor Proto-Dracolichdom take away Psionics unless the dragon has the Magic Mantle) would be good choices for the base dragon.

Disciple of Ashardalon is cool, but likely not worth it for the CR increase compared to more levels in dragon.

[the_david]

Ashardalon represents all that is evil about dragons. Compared to him, Tiamat is a kobold.

And even though Ashardalon had a template, you don't need one to represent all that is evil. You just have to do something really evil.

Like eating unborn souls just so you can become a god.

[j_spencer93]

Oh i just assumed since your a dragon you got your racial version of lich. Love that dracolich idea btw expecially since this is a pure melee party. Archdragon seems a little underwhelming to me. But dracolich are so iconic i have tofit one in

[j_spencer93]

As for the second idea. I freaking love the concept of ashraldon and wanted toincorporate a dragon seeking to copy him into the game someway. Actually using some epic magic (dm bs) ritual the dracolich was going to return him to life in his binders body leading to a fight against the legendary bad ass of red

[j_spencer93]

Wonder if a player will play a hexblade hex dragon

[WhamBamSam]

Oh i just assumed since your a dragon you got your racial version of lich. Love that dracolich idea btw expecially since this is a pure melee party. Archdragon seems a little underwhelming to me. But dracolich are so iconic i have tofit one inNope, that's a reasonable houserule I suppose, but there is no such concept in the rules. Classes that apply templates to you apply that exact template, even if it couldn't ordinarily be applied to the creature in question.

What's your party, specifically (or what do you expect them to be when they fight this thing)? That Dracolich setup is the sort of thing that can end up being unwinnable if the party doesn't have a win condition beyond "keep killing it until it stays dead" (ie, they can't get to the phylactery even if it's close and don't have an efficient way of smashing the corpses) or if they can't get at least some protection against paralysis.

Archdragon is pretty underpriced at CR+1, even for the most underwhelming of them (the Good one). The Evil version admittedly isn't quite as ridiculous as the Law (creatures damaged by its breath weapon are affected as if by an AMF) or Chaos (trying to attack from within the aura? Boom, miss chance), but its aura is still not a nice place to be.

[thethird]

My favorite evil dragon (my players don't think the same)

Riiziidiiv (http://media.wizards.com/2015/images/daily/cardart_SoulSummonsUGINFRF.jpg) Hoarding Nameless Xorvintaal Flame of the Forge Great Wyrm Emerald Dragon. He had two (major) exarchs: the first one was his hoard, who happened to be a soulfused gold golem, the second exarch were two spell to power Erudite Dvati twins, whose purpose was to learn spells/powers and transmit them to Riiziidiiv they would also serve as magic item traders giving magical weapons/equipment to the party (of dragon slayers) at a cheap price.

Riiziidiiv had won the Xorvintaal game before being disqualified for being a psionic dragon, and thus cheating, he was ganged by the other participants and killed and most of his hoard was taken away. His greed though was too strong. His spirit remained and through using his Innate Object reading and being able to communicate with his hoard made him gather it back fast enough. After that he would just mess and screw with Xorvintaal dragons, because he is the winner.

His feats where the posession feat tree from Ghostwalk, and mostly crafter feats he worked behind the scenes funding attacks to other dragons by giving possessed magic items (that he had crafted himself) and passing the possession to the slain corpse of the dragon after it was killed, using it to temporarely replace them and get more hoard.

Oh Riiziidiiv what a **** you were. Fun times.

[j_spencer93]

well uh they will be playing as dragons (i think all of them will be, that or at least one dragon and others are dragon based characters), hoping the dracolich would be interesting but not impossible.
Really liking the idea of a dracolich who seeks to create his own undead army, taking the knowledge of the dead dragons he revives. There is a feat that allows a dragon to absorb undead and heal himself or something like that i need to find, its an eberron feat.
(well fine ill just have a lich dracolich then! jk)

[j_spencer93]

XORVINTAAL DRAGON, so the way i understand this is two dragons basically act as chess masters with pawns or what? Can someone explain exactly what this "game" is? I am really interested in it for my campaign.

[WhamBamSam]

XORVINTAAL DRAGON, so the way i understand this is two dragons basically act as chess masters with pawns or what? Can someone explain exactly what this "game" is? I am really interested in it for my campaign.Xorvintaal is basically Calvinball played with humanoid lives. Dragons understand how it works, but it's beyond the scope of lesser mortals. The rules are entirely up to you.

[j_spencer93]

ok so it seemingly being without any real rules of structure wasnt beyond my scope of understanding. it simply wasnt there. lol makes me feel alot better.
Another note, do any dragon gods beside bahamut and tiamat have stats?