Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXV [Archive]

Heliomance

2015-01-26, 04:32 AM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef LXV. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: The "special ingredient" can be drawn from any legal source. Originally, the plan was to mostly use Core and Completes, but that was 60 threads ago, and we've started running out of interesting classes to use if we restrict ourselves to those.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 09:59 GMT on Sunday, February 8th, 2015 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Heliomance. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 09:59 GMT on Sunday, February 22nd, 2015 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This month's Secret Ingredient is:
Explorer's Handbook's Thunder Guide!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honourable Mention will go to the chairwoman's favourite build.

Allez, optimiser!

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297327)
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall to Orcus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302487)
Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307823)
Iron Chef LI: Black Flame Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312773)
Iron Chef LII: Anointed Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317934)
Iron Chef LIII: Zerth Cenobite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325164)
Iron Chef LIV: Osteomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330890)
Iron Chef LV: Mountebank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336373-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LV)
Iron Chef LVI: Dwarven Defender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342807-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVI)
Iron Chef LVII: Darkrunner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349040-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVII)
Iron Chef LVIII: Spellsword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357412-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVIII)
Iron Chef LIX: Fleet Runner of Ehlonna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364667-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LIX)
Iron Chef LX: Lasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371835-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LX(II): Acolyte of the Ego (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372145-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LXII: Dungeon Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376810-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXII)
Iron Cheff LXIII: WItchborn Binder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?382632-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIII)
Iron Chef LXIV: Slime Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387166-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIV)

Heliomance

2015-01-26, 04:33 AM

FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Heliomance is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirements for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right? No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavourably on it.

WhamBamSam

2015-01-26, 04:39 AM

I'm sure I've done something to deserve this, but I can't think what.

WeaselGuy

2015-01-26, 04:45 AM

I like Eberron, and this one doesn't seem too outlandish or complicated for my second attempt at a formal challenge. I'll cook.

Sian

2015-01-26, 04:51 AM

I'm sure I've done something to deserve this, but I can't think what.

I'm with this ... sure i can find something to cook it with, but the cooking sherry needed probably aren't healthy

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-26, 05:50 AM

I'm with this ... sure i can find something to cook it with, but the cooking sherry needed probably aren't healthy

*pulls out the sake. *

I don't think sherry is gonna cut it.

sideswipe

2015-01-26, 05:57 AM

the thunder guide i have found is a base class. is this correct? i thought they were meant to be prestige? thanks sian

Sian

2015-01-26, 05:58 AM

*pulls out the sake. *

I don't think sherry is gonna cut it.

thats just offensive to sake, using it for helping with this

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-26, 06:18 AM

thats just offensive to sake, using it for helping with this

I never said I was cooking with it silly :p

Sian

2015-01-26, 06:30 AM

vaild point

*breaks out high-proof moonshine*

Dumbledore lives

2015-01-26, 06:57 AM

When a class's only feature at level one is speak language, you know it's something special. I will probably volunteer to judge unless I suddenly come up with an idea.

Darrin

2015-01-26, 06:59 AM

Huh. I'd glanced at this one before, but now that I'm looking more closely at it...

I'm not sure I've ever seen a PrC that is designed so brazenly for plot derailment.

Heliomance

2015-01-26, 07:34 AM

Huh. I'd glanced at this one before, but now that I'm looking more closely at it...

I'm not sure I've ever seen a PrC that is designed so brazenly for plot derailment.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a PrC that is so brazenly trying to assign mechanics to things that really should be handled by plot and roleplay.

Amphetryon

2015-01-26, 08:08 AM

Competing, time permitting (I know, I know, you're all shocked).

OMG PONIES

2015-01-26, 08:50 AM

Finally, something that will answer the question "how do I optimize Speak Language: Argon?"

sakuuya

2015-01-26, 09:22 AM

I was once in an Eberron campaign where like every third NPC had levels in this.

dysprosium

2015-01-26, 09:47 AM

Hopefully real life will cooperate this round (unlike the past couple).

Chronos

2015-01-26, 09:47 AM

Wow, I'd never even heard of this book, much less the class.

Amphetryon

2015-01-26, 10:28 AM

Given that I've never tried to use this PrC before, and given that this PrC is so generally underwhelming, that was surprisingly fast and painless.

WhamBamSam

2015-01-26, 01:53 PM

I was once in an Eberron campaign where like every third NPC had levels in this.Well, at least they'd have been easy to kill if ever they annoyed you too much.

Apart from the general nonsense of making these things class features in the first place, none of them matter at all at the level you get them. 200gp once a month at ECL 9+? Gosh, you're not just a Thunder Guide, you're also a guide to making it rain!

Zaq

2015-01-26, 02:20 PM

I'm not sure I've ever seen a PrC that is so brazenly trying to assign mechanics to things that really should be handled by plot and roleplay.

You haven't spent a lot of time looking at bad Forgotten Realms PrCs, then. (Yes, I know the Thunder Guide is Eberron, but FR PrCs have a horrible tendency to be clumsy attempts to turn a single NPC from some dev's home campaign into a class.)

That said, yeah, this class has a very FR-ish air about it. Unlike the FR PrCs I'm thinking of, this is clearly three or four specfic NPCs rolled into one class, rather than one specific NPC, but the fact remains.

Chronos

2015-01-26, 08:15 PM

Darrin

2015-01-26, 08:32 PM

On the other hand, this is the only class I've ever seen that has a class feature based on meeting a specific, named NPC. What happens if yousome random evildoer kill Kole Naerrin before you reach 8th level?

Who says he's currently alive? The text says he just writes about you. It never mentions a face-to-face meeting. For all we know, Kole Naerrin is being ghostwritten by a nameless copy editor, or the publisher just slaps his name on whatever is currently selling. The real Kole Naerrin may be long retired, or decomposing in a spiked pit trap in a nameless jungle somewhere.

If he's dead and we absolutely have to make him alive again, it's not like there are magic spells that can... oh, wait.

MilesTiden

2015-01-26, 09:45 PM

sakuuya

2015-01-26, 10:17 PM

The best part is, they don't get a choice. They are straight up forced to write a 13 week serial about this one dude's adventures, regardless of their prior knowledge, personal feelings, or even their physical ability. Poor Kole Naerrin.

He's probably got a template that he can just fill in for whatever rando he's forced to write about.

Venger

2015-01-26, 11:44 PM

He's probably got a template that he can just fill in for whatever rando he's forced to write about.

So a... choose your own adventure series, if you will.

Did Kole Naerrin just invent D&D?

I'm in to cook. Thunder guide is basically my favorite, as is eberron explorer's guide.

Heliomance

2015-01-27, 03:56 AM

I'm in to cook. Thunder guide is basically my favorite, as is eberron explorer's guide.

I'm debating using Cataclysm Mage in a future competition. The class features are weird enough to make a good Iron Chef, but on the other hand it's a full caster class.

Y'know, it's almost a shame we ban Dragon mag here. I feel a Charlatan Thunder Guide could be really good fun!

MilesTiden

2015-01-27, 04:08 AM

Charlatan was my first idea! Until I remembered that it was Drag Mag. @_@

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-27, 06:11 AM

i have no idea on how to build it. can i ask for judging?

WeaselGuy

2015-01-27, 06:43 AM

Well, I have my stats and my level progression written out, and an idea for how I want his backstory to go. Now I just have to write it. I'm hoping to finish it in the next few days, so I can participate in another competition that's going on at the same time lol.

sideswipe

2015-01-27, 07:25 AM

does the characters backstory have to take place in eberron? i have never read the campaign setting and i don't feel like reading an entire setting for an iron chef entry lol.

WeaselGuy

2015-01-27, 07:27 AM

does the characters backstory have to take place in eberron? i have never read the campaign setting and i don't feel like reading an entire setting for an iron chef entry lol.

Slacker...

lol, seriously though, that is a pretty decent question, even though I have no issue writing an Eberron backstory...

Heliomance

2015-01-27, 07:31 AM

Normally we're pretty lax about setting requirements. This class is pretty damn setting specific though, very tied into the fluff of the Khorvaire region. This isn't an Official Chair's Ruling, but I find it hard to see how you could do a non-Eberron backstory for this one and have it make sense.

Sian

2015-01-27, 07:32 AM

Drawing board calls again ... my first idea, when getting to the point of looking in assorted handbooks for ideas for feats, ended with me finding the exact same basis build, except with the vastly superior [redacted] instead of Thunder Guide. :smallsigh: At least i highly doubt that my secondary idea would run into that.

EDIT: actually ... in length of Sideswipes question ... do we have to be Eberron at book time or can we walk some bit up or down the timeline?

atemu1234

2015-01-27, 07:59 AM

vaild point

*breaks out high-proof moonshine*

*breaks out chemical grade alcohol and bleach*

Moonshine is for wimps.

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-27, 08:03 AM

I'm not familiar with Eberron either, but surprisingly I've already got my build done, and an interesting backstory I think.

Heliomance

2015-01-27, 08:27 AM

kaffalidjmah would like some tips on how to judge I think, if any of our veteran judges have any good advice.

Amphetryon

2015-01-27, 08:29 AM

kaffalidjmah would like some tips on how to judge I think, if any of our veteran judges have any good advice.

Hmm. I was reading kaffalidjmah's request as one for opinions on his(?) build prior to formally submitting it, honestly.

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-27, 08:55 AM

mmm...

i looked in some previous challenge and i decided is best to post some of my thought.

first of everything, remember that the thunder guide is, obviusly, a GUIDE. is expecting helping people through the various hazard of the xen'drik jungle, or the argonassen, even helping a sailor handle his ship, and in the meantime, reaching the destination.

second, the thunder guide IS NOT A GENERIC GUIDE. is an EBERRON guide. i understand that not everyone want to read the full campaign setting just for a challenge. i suggest reading the explorer handbook, especially chapter 1 and 2 (total 66 pages) will help you figure out what a thunder guide is expected to do, in what envyronment is expected to live and work. in the later chapter are some travel example.

i don't know what else to say

@Amphetryon maybe i am reading your post wrong or i expressed myself wrong, but i don't have a build to propose. and for that reason, i am want to judge. i don't start with an idea that some thunder guide are better than other, i try to stay a impartial judge.

Deadasadoor

2015-01-27, 09:53 AM

I have my class levels and my general idea worked out. Mostly, I may change a few things depending on how the rest of the build goes, and I need to figure out the exact fluff, but other than that I should be able to get done in a timely matter.

WeaselGuy

2015-01-27, 09:58 AM

My backstory is now almost done, trying to decide on whether to keep it as is, or embellish it a little when I get back to my personal computer, with all my books on it...

edit: And it's away! Those Stomach Butterflies of Anxiety +2 are stirring up now...

Venger

2015-01-27, 04:02 PM

I'm debating using Cataclysm Mage in a future competition. The class features are weird enough to make a good Iron Chef, but on the other hand it's a full caster class.

Y'know, it's almost a shame we ban Dragon mag here. I feel a Charlatan Thunder Guide could be really good fun!

I'm for that idea. Cataclysm mage is one of my favorites. We've had actual full casting SIs in rounds past (cataclysm mage is 9/10) so that shouldn't be an issue.

mmm...

i looked in some previous challenge and i decided is best to post some of my thought.

first of everything, remember that the thunder guide is, obviusly, a GUIDE. is expecting helping people through the various hazard of the xen'drik jungle, or the argonassen, even helping a sailor handle his ship, and in the meantime, reaching the destination.

second, the thunder guide IS NOT A GENERIC GUIDE. is an EBERRON guide. i understand that not everyone want to read the full campaign setting just for a challenge. i suggest reading the explorer handbook, especially chapter 1 and 2 (total 66 pages) will help you figure out what a thunder guide is expected to do, in what envyronment is expected to live and work. in the later chapter are some travel example.

i don't know what else to say

@Amphetryon maybe i am reading your post wrong or i expressed myself wrong, but i don't have a build to propose. and for that reason, i am want to judge. i don't start with an idea that some thunder guide are better than other, i try to stay a impartial judge.

I think you're asking for help in formulating your judging criteria. here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287603-Handy-Tips-for-the-Iron-Chef-in-the-Playground-Noob&highlight=cryokineticist+judging) is a helpful guide amph and several other iron chef vets put together on the subject.

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-27, 05:41 PM

I think you're asking for help in formulating your judging criteria. here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287603-Handy-Tips-for-the-Iron-Chef-in-the-Playground-Noob&highlight=cryokineticist+judging) is a helpful guide amph and several other iron chef vets put together on the subject.

i have a judging criteria, i have already readed the guide, thank you :smallsmile: i don't know if i have to post it or no. in some challenge i've seen some post their judging criteria and in some other no. i don't know if posting it is a correct way or not, i decided to do some generic advice for the build. is not "use xxx instead of yyy" is just "remember what you're class are supposed to do".

if i am doing something wrong, please tell me, thanks :smallsmile:

Venger

2015-01-27, 07:16 PM

i have a judging criteria, i have already readed the guide, thank you :smallsmile: i don't know if i have to post it or no. in some challenge i've seen some post their judging criteria and in some other no. i don't know if posting it is a correct way or not, i decided to do some generic advice for the build. is not "use xxx instead of yyy" is just "remember what you're class are supposed to do".

if i am doing something wrong, please tell me, thanks :smallsmile:

If you're going to judge, it's appreciated if you post criteria. That way if people have any questions, we can iron it out now instead of when judging's commenced. OMG Ponies has a really great rubric that a lot of people like to use, so that's a handy jumping off point.

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-27, 08:38 PM

Got most everything figured out just trying to decide on the optimal way to arrange my levels.

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-28, 05:33 AM

as asked, here are my judging criteria.

originality: start at 3. you can gain more point if you can use something that surprise me or you can gain -2 if you use the entry listed in the explorer handbook (lesser penality for a similar one)

power: start at 3. you can gain more point by focusing on the main objective of the thunder guide: can go to point A to point B without losing anyone mid-way. on the other end, creating a build that do not care for your fellow, or fail to go to point A to point B is electible of a penality.

elegance: well, i didn't penalize multi-classing or single-classing, uneathed arcana is allowed, but not gestalt, prestigious class or alternative method of crafting and spell casting (as the creating post). no bloodlines. it start at 3, like the rest, and can increase or decrease depending on...how you builded you pg. again, i didn't penalize multi-classing...just remember the fact that more than 1 level difference cause penality to xp, apart from favored class. remember also that you are in the thunder sea, so you have to take in mind what happens in the various region of it.

use of the secret ingredient: this start at 1. yes it start from the bottom, the reason is pretty simple: this prestige class have the sign "THROW PLOT HOOKS AND BACKGROUND STORY AT ME" NAILED IN THE FRONT. tell me the story of your character for gaining more point. a good backstory is worth easily a +3. a good selection of ability WITH a good backstory is worth a +4. a poor back story most likely a +1, and a prevedible one a +2. be creative. you are the indiana jones of eberron

contestant, i am open for question, pm me if is for something private, for more "FAQ" question post in this topic so everyone can see.

good cook!! :smallwink:

EDIT: weasel guy pointed me that i made an error in elegance, i spelled only the xen'drik region. now i modified to the whole thunder sea (the name of this PrC come from that, in fact) and the various region around it. thank weasel guy!

WeaselGuy

2015-01-28, 05:41 AM

as asked, here are my judging criteria.

originality: start at 3. you can gain more point if you can use something that surprise me or you can gain -2 if you use the entry listed in the handbook (lesser penality for a similar one)

Wait, there's a handbook for Thunder Guide?

elegance: well, i didn't penalize multi-classing or single-classing, uneathed arcana is allowed, but not gestalt, prestigious class or alternative method of crafting and spell casting (as the creating post). no bloodlines or paragon classes. it start at 3, like the rest, and can increase or decrease depending on...how you builded you pg. again, i didn't penalize multi-classing...just remember the fact that more than 1 level difference cause penality to xp, apart from favored class. remember also that you are in xen'drik, so you have to take in mind what happens in certain region of xen'drik.

First of all, I didn't know you can't do paragon classes, but that doesn't affect me anyways. Secondly, you don't actually have to be in Xen'drik, specifically, you operate on the Thunder Sea, from Stormreach to Argonnesson, but the point stands, you should be cognizant of the surrounding areas.

I don't really have any beef with anything else.

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-28, 06:27 AM

Wait, there's a handbook for Thunder Guide?

First of all, I didn't know you can't do paragon classes, but that doesn't affect me anyways. Secondly, you don't actually have to be in Xen'drik, specifically, you operate on the Thunder Sea, from Stormreach to Argonnesson, but the point stands, you should be cognizant of the surrounding areas.

I don't really have any beef with anything else.

1) i mean the explorer handbook. the manual where is the prestige class. i don't think someone created a handbook for this PrC, later i will check.

2) you are right, is not limitated to the xen'drik, is just that when i play in eberron i usually end up fighting giant in xen'drik. professional deformation :smalltongue:

WeaselGuy

2015-01-28, 06:34 AM

1) i mean the explorer handbook. the manual where is the prestige class. i don't think someone created a handbook for this PrC, later i will check.

2) you are right, is not limitated to the xen'drik, is just that when i play in eberron i usually end up fighting giant in xen'drik. professional deformation :smalltongue:

1) Gotcha, in that case, no fighter 4/thunder guide 10/x 6

2) In that case, I feel maybe you should change you're judging criteria post to reflect the applicable zone of operations, instead of limiting it to your personal experience. Even though I'm sure Xen'drik exploration will be included in nearly everybody's build (it is a major exploration area, after all), I am equally sure that some people will want to include trips to Seren, Argonnesson, and Valenar in their backstories.

Amphetryon

2015-01-28, 08:48 AM

i didn't penalize multi-classing...just remember the fact that more than 1 level difference cause penality to xp, apart from favored class.
From the point of view of many Iron Chef contestants, past and present, this means you will, in fact, be penalizing multiclassing. That's perfectly fine - they're your criteria - but it's phrased as if multiclassing won't be penalized. . . unless it's used.

sideswipe

2015-01-28, 09:18 AM

From the point of view of many Iron Chef contestants, past and present, this means you will, in fact, be penalizing multiclassing. That's perfectly fine - they're your criteria - but it's phrased as if multiclassing won't be penalized. . . unless it's used.

ok so no one has ever looked at the penalising multiclassing rules, but that one guy who did can you explain it.
as far as i understand. you get a penalty for having 2 base classes not in your favoured class.
does it count prestiges?
i know it doesnt really penalise either dipping or keeping 2 classes level. which is it?
the build i have in mind im pretty sure wont breach anything, but im just making sure.

dysprosium

2015-01-28, 09:42 AM

Prestige classes never incur XP penalties. I know this to be true from years of seeing this topic on the message boards everywhere. That can be found right in the SRD under the prestige class header (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm).

However this is why I disagree with potential judges posting criteria beforehand. And why when I judge, I do not post it before the dishes are revealed. Though mostly appreciated, what it usually ends up doing is sparking too many needless debates. Also plenty of "personally I don't think you should judge that way . . . "

It changes the focus of the competition from making a character that one can be proud of into making a character to satisfy a particular judge. And that's one particular judge. Just because one satisfied (or min/maxed) one judge's set of criteria doesn't mean that it will satisfy a second or third judges' sets.

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-28, 09:49 AM

From the point of view of many Iron Chef contestants, past and present, this means you will, in fact, be penalizing multiclassing. That's perfectly fine - they're your criteria - but it's phrased as if multiclassing won't be penalized. . . unless it's used.

the xp malus is a rule. I don't give more or less point just for the number of class you have in your build. You can have 20 level in 20 different classes, for me is fine. But because there are rule for xp malus, if you ignore it (or willingly accept it for a greater deed) WILL result in a penality. You can multiclass how much as you want, just do it wisely

sideswipe

2015-01-28, 10:10 AM

the xp malus is a rule. I don't give more or less point just for the number of class you have in your build. You can have 20 level in 20 different classes, for me is fine. But because there are rule for xp malus, if you ignore it (or willingly accept it for a greater deed) WILL result in a penality. You can multiclass how much as you want, just do it wisely

you also said unearthed arcana is allowed. does this mean you won't penalise for flaws?

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-28, 12:48 PM

you also said unearthed arcana is allowed. does this mean you won't penalise for flaws?

no. The head post say a few words around UA, and specifically that flaws may grant penalization.

OMG PONIES

2015-01-28, 12:50 PM

ok so no one has ever looked at the penalising multiclassing rules, but that one guy who did can you explain it.
as far as i understand. you get a penalty for having 2 base classes not in your favoured class.
does it count prestiges?
i know it doesnt really penalise either dipping or keeping 2 classes level. which is it?
the build i have in mind im pretty sure wont breach anything, but im just making sure.

As highlighted above, prestige classes do not count toward XP penalties. However, to clarify the understanding of multiclass penalties:

If you have multiple classes with even levels (such as Fighter 2/Rogue 2) or no more than one level difference between them (such as Paladin 5/Sorcerer 4), you do not incur multiclass penalties. It is only when the gap increases (say, to a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 4) that you could incur multiclass penalties. Check your favored class based on race to see any special considerations based on race to confirm whether or not you do incur multiclass penalties. Using the example of our Pal 6/Sorc 4, a human would not incur the penalty due to the following:

Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
If the same character were a dwarf, he would incur the penalty due to the following:

Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing
Hope that makes things somewhat clearer.

Deadline

2015-01-28, 01:56 PM

kaffalidjmah

2015-01-28, 02:29 PM

Paragon classes have been pretty explicitly allowed in the past. It's your judging criteria, and if I cook I'll be building what I like instead of building to a specific judge, I just found that bit odd.

you are correct. i made a enourmos mistake. edited the judging criteria post. usually bloodlines and paragon are banned in my game, i just...don't know. automated, probably. thank for highlighting it :smallsmile:

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-28, 08:36 PM

Well table is finished. Almost screwed up my entry, but fortunately caught myself and was able to rectify the problem before I got hit with FTQ. Now I just need to do writeup and fluff.

Thurbane

2015-01-29, 01:32 AM

Not being a fan of Eberron, I never looked at the PrC before.

Wow. Just, wow. Fluff wise, it's very cool. Mechanics wise? Just plain awful...

A_S

2015-01-29, 01:54 AM

Wow. Just, wow. Fluff wise, it's very cool. Mechanics wise? Just plain awful...
Yeah, I haven't seen this much fluff text to justify this many insultingly small numerical bonuses since...I dunno, maybe Nightsong Infiltrator?

Venger

2015-01-29, 02:04 AM

Wait, there's a handbook for Thunder Guide?
There isn't.

Not being a fan of Eberron, I never looked at the PrC before.

Wow. Just, wow. Fluff wise, it's very cool. Mechanics wise? Just plain awful...

That's a fair and accurate assessment of the class. This is gonna be a great round. Gotta love SIs that let you pick your own features. It's stoneord all over again.

WeaselGuy

2015-01-29, 02:29 AM

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually like this prestige class... guess it just fits my play style or something, considering I don't play casters or initiators that often...

Thurbane

2015-01-29, 02:33 AM

Yeah, I haven't seen this much fluff text to justify this many insultingly small numerical bonuses since...I dunno, maybe Nightsong Infiltrator?

That's a fair and accurate assessment of the class. This is gonna be a great round. Gotta love SIs that let you pick your own features. It's stoneord all over again.
I love how some of the low-level SLAs you can pick up A). require a material focus, and B). better yet, have a hard cap of CL 3!

A_S

2015-01-29, 02:42 AM

My favorites are the action-economy gems like "spend a standard action to temporarily gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls against a single opponent" or "spend a full-round action that provokes AoO's to temporarily gain a +2 bonus to strength."

In what version of the game are those abilities that I would use, even if I gained them for free?

sideswipe

2015-01-29, 11:16 AM

Troacctid

2015-01-29, 02:33 PM

And the first could be used if you're setting up a surprise round.

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-29, 03:25 PM

Ah the challenge of Iron Chef find the niche uses for crappy abilities :P

Zaq

2015-01-29, 06:28 PM

I thought that [REDACTED] would at least be useful in qualifying for [REDACTED], but I forgot that it doesn't actually meet the prerequisite of [REDACTED]. So that's probably a wash. Beyond that, I'm coming up totally blank. I literally can't find anything that this class does better than anyone else.

This class isn't so much a "class" as it is a "list of small bonuses the GM should give out for good RP."

sideswipe

2015-01-29, 11:07 PM

thats me all entered, it was the quickest build i have ever done. less that 25 hours :smallsmile:

(im very indecisive)

The Viscount

2015-01-29, 11:44 PM

I agree completely, Zaq. I'm reminded much of tactical soldier. Every class feature provokes a "ok that's neat little bonus" but then you realize that's all there is. I'm also kind of reminded of the complete non-feature nature of Sybil, though that technically does something. The very roleplay-bound but not useful features remind me of knight-errant of silverymoon

The BA 4 requirement makes me very unhappy. Why a BA 4 requirement on an average BA class?

Venger

2015-01-30, 02:07 AM

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually like this prestige class... guess it just fits my play style or something, considering I don't play casters or initiators that often...

No, I like this class too, it just doesn't actually do anything.

I agree completely, Zaq. I'm reminded much of tactical soldier. Every class feature provokes a "ok that's neat little bonus" but then you realize that's all there is. I'm also kind of reminded of the complete non-feature nature of Sybil, though that technically does something. The very roleplay-bound but not useful features remind me of knight-errant of silverymoon

The BA 4 requirement makes me very unhappy. Why a BA 4 requirement on an average BA class?

Sybil is a good comparison. At least this one's easier to qualify for.

BA 4?

(checks)

Well, I'll have to start over. Why the BA req? it makes getting a pain.

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-30, 02:37 AM

Well, I'll have to start over. Why the BA req? it makes getting a pain.

How so? Most classes will qualify by either level 5 or 7, even with the skill requirement.

Amphetryon

2015-01-30, 07:25 AM

I agree completely, Zaq. I'm reminded much of tactical soldier. Every class feature provokes a "ok that's neat little bonus" but then you realize that's all there is. I'm also kind of reminded of the complete non-feature nature of Sybil, though that technically does something. The very roleplay-bound but not useful features remind me of knight-errant of silverymoon

I keep getting this image of a designer who looked at Mythic Exemplar and said "That's cool, but I think it's a little too strong for my group. How can we tone it down?"

Zaq

2015-01-30, 12:51 PM

I keep getting this image of a designer who looked at Mythic Exemplar and said "That's cool, but I think it's a little too strong for my group. How can we tone it down?"

That made me literally laugh out loud.

Chronos

2015-01-30, 01:55 PM

I guess that, since attacking is all you can do, and you won't get very good at it from this class itself, the designers wanted to make sure you had at least some competency at it before you entered.

Zaq

2015-01-30, 02:11 PM

Heliomance

2015-01-30, 03:18 PM

Venger

2015-01-31, 02:08 AM

The other way that this class is poorly designed is that you're pulling from the same lists of Thunder Lore and Native Ties for ten levels, but there's no prereqs or anything like that. Which means that you're going to take the best one first, the next best one after that, the next best one after that, and so on. So rather than getting cool and exciting new abilities as you level up, you're getting leftover abilities that you've already passed up. One of your rewards for reaching tenth level is your fifth Thunder Lore choice, meaning the fifth best one to choose from. What a compelling capstone! If you really wanted the one that you get at tenth level, you would have taken it before then. It's not like they're all equally cool and interesting—far from it. So this totally flies in the face of the design principle that you get cooler stuff at higher levels. It's almost punishing you for sticking with the class.

Yup, Stonelord had exactly the same problem.

That's a fair and accurate assessment of the class. This is gonna be a great round. Gotta love SIs that let you pick your own features. It's stonelord all over again.

My thoughts exactly. That's what I meant about "picking your own features." Unlike normal classes such as dark scholar or master thrower, there aren't any prereqs for anything, so you'll start with the "best" ones and work your way down the list, like with stonelord.

OMG PONIES

2015-01-31, 08:34 AM

Wait, we don't pick good prestige classes for this competition? :smalltongue:

Zaq

2015-01-31, 01:23 PM

Wait, we don't pick good prestige classes for this competition? :smalltongue:

Since when has that ever stopped us from kvetching about it?

Mostly I'm just frustrated that I can't think of anything worth doing with this class. I'd like to enter something, but like I said, I literally cannot find anything that this class does better than anyone else. The implied "So why didn't you just take more levels of X, rather than Thunder Guide?" question hangs heavily over any build stubs I come up with. My ideas all commit the sin of taking the SI only because it is the SI, rather than because it's actually a good choice for the build, and what's more, I recognize it happening. And that's frustrating, because I really wanted to enter something this time around. But I can't come up with anything worthwhile. I'm not sufficiently familiar with Eberron fluff to come up with a compelling story about a Thunder Guide, and I can't come up with any mechanical reasons to take the class, so I'm stuck.

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-31, 06:50 PM

Gotta love it when you're almost finished with editing something in your web browser and it decides to crash FNAR, and results in the loss of an hour's worth of work -.-'

Heliomance

2015-01-31, 07:26 PM

Since when has that ever stopped us from kvetching about it?

Mostly I'm just frustrated that I can't think of anything worth doing with this class. I'd like to enter something, but like I said, I literally cannot find anything that this class does better than anyone else. The implied "So why didn't you just take more levels of X, rather than Thunder Guide?" question hangs heavily over any build stubs I come up with. My ideas all commit the sin of taking the SI only because it is the SI, rather than because it's actually a good choice for the build, and what's more, I recognize it happening. And that's frustrating, because I really wanted to enter something this time around. But I can't come up with anything worthwhile. I'm not sufficiently familiar with Eberron fluff to come up with a compelling story about a Thunder Guide, and I can't come up with any mechanical reasons to take the class, so I'm stuck.

This from the guy that wrote a handbook on Truenamers :P

MilesTiden

2015-01-31, 07:28 PM

Well, it could be worse. It could be the Inquisitor from DLCS. :smallamused::smalltongue: (I still want to see that in an Iron Chef one day)

KrimsonNekros

2015-01-31, 10:53 PM

This from the guy that wrote a handbook on Truenamers :P

It's cause he's trying to keep us from realizing his build is the one with truenamer in it!

Chronos

2015-01-31, 11:10 PM

WhamBamSam

2015-01-31, 11:50 PM

Well, it could be worse. It could be the Inquisitor from DLCS. :smallamused::smalltongue: (I still want to see that in an Iron Chef one day)Inquisitor at least has one interesting ability (hell, if it had more uses/day or progressed casting at 1st level, it'd be a popular dip).

Zaq

2015-02-01, 01:51 PM

I just noticed another, ahem, feature of this class. It's got a class feature based on a skill that isn't a class skill. There's also an ability that says a bonus increases, when it never gave you that bonus before then.

You mean Society Peer? That's increasing the bonus you get from Lionized in the Press. (As for the feature based on a skill that isn't a class skill, yeah, that's unfortunate. Reminds me of Dread Pirate. I had to ding soooo many people for treating Diplomacy as a class skill for Dread Pirate. It isn't.)

This from the guy that wrote a handbook on Truenamers :P

Yeah, exactly. You can see how frustrating this is. The bleedin' Truenamer has a couple tricks that it does better than most. I was able to cook up something for Acolyte of the Ego, too (which was another class where you pick the best abilities first and it goes downhill from there, now that I think about it). But this is just leaving me completely stymied.

Venger

2015-02-02, 02:03 AM

WhamBamSam

2015-02-02, 02:06 AM

by my count, there are three of these. this SI is godly.To say nothing of the fact that they're all competence bonuses anyway.

Deadasadoor

2015-02-02, 10:21 AM

sideswipe

2015-02-02, 11:33 AM

I think I'm out for this contest... The new semester is already incredibly busy for me. My original idea also works far better without more than 3 levels in the SI ( powerful character though), and my second idea is something that I expect someone else to do. Good luck to the other chefs!

people say that all the time and then find that no one else did the idea and it would have been original. so i would say enter it.

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-03, 02:24 AM

Entry 1 is in, and Entry 2 is in the prep stages.

Chronos

2015-02-04, 08:04 PM

Just wanted to say that I'm mostly finished with the skeleton of an entry; now I just need to do all of the write-up and tabulation and so forth. I've a feeling that I'm going to get either first place or last, but I'm not sure which.

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-04, 11:09 PM

can't seem to get a good build going with my second idea. Always feels like I'm crippling some aspect of it.

sakuuya

2015-02-04, 11:51 PM

can't seem to get a good build going with my second idea. Always feels like I'm crippling some aspect of it.

If you don't want to cripple your build, you might want to try not taking the SI. :smalltongue:

Thurbane

2015-02-04, 11:55 PM

If I had the time I'd love to enter joke build for this PrC. I could sit back and not worry about power levels or competence, but just try to jam as many gags into the build as possible.

Sadly, though, I'm in the process of getting ready to move house, and the early shifts at work at playing havoc with my sleeping routine...

Venger

2015-02-05, 02:52 AM

kaffalidjmah

2015-02-06, 07:54 AM

Two days left! Are you ready guys? The recipe are good? The ingredient are right? The cooking is creating your masterwork?

Heliomance

2015-02-06, 08:53 AM

I only have three entries so far. Has this ingredient really horrified you all that much?

Amphetryon

2015-02-06, 09:09 AM

I only have three entries so far. Has this ingredient really horrified you all that much?

That or we're all horrible procrastinators. Seems unlikely, but possible.

sakuuya

2015-02-06, 09:13 AM

I only have three entries so far. Has this ingredient really horrified you all that much?

That or we're all horrible procrastinators. Seems unlikely, but possible.

It can be two things!

WeaselGuy

2015-02-06, 10:46 AM

WhamBamSam

2015-02-06, 11:01 AM

Well, with only 3 entries, at least I'm guaranteed a podium slot...

Seriously though, I actually liked this class. I had a lot of fun coming up with a working build and writing a nice backstory for it. Maybe it's not quite up to the standards of some HiOpFu Gurus, but it was still interesting.I spent a little time thinking about it, but every idea I came up with ran into the problems of a) the skill bonuses the SI gives are competence bonuses and therefore basically worthless, b) the fact that I could take 10 levels some low-tier base class and have the build come out significantly better, or c) some combination of the two. There was some potential for flavor, but I didn't really feel like reading up on Eberron fluff, and just wasn't excited by the ideas, so I decided to fool around in side competitions this month instead.

Sian

2015-02-06, 11:32 AM

pretty much in the same boat as WBS ... no matter what idea i had (and some of them was pretty interesting IMO) i kept running head first into a wall with the fact that Thunder Guide, while relevant for the build, was much worse than a number of other prestige classes (or even base classes)

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-06, 12:33 PM

Well, with only 3 entries, at least I'm guaranteed a podium slot...

No! I refuse to finally medal on the grounds of there only being three contestants!

kaffalidjmah

2015-02-06, 01:10 PM

No! I refuse to finally medal on the grounds of there only being three contestants!

Well, with only 3 entries, at least I'm guaranteed a podium slot...

Seriously though, I actually liked this class. I had a lot of fun coming up with a working build and writing a nice backstory for it. Maybe it's not quite up to the standards of some HiOpFu Gurus, but it was still interesting.

different line of thoughs, different intent. remember one thing, you can have built the worst build ever (and with this PrC is most probably the worst build ever) but at least you tried. don't feel shame for being in the top three because there are only 3 people. feel strong because you tried to cook one of the most difficult ingredient that you have only the worty challenger

Zaq

2015-02-06, 03:03 PM

I'm going to do something I may regret.

I'm going to judge.

CRITERIA:

Originality: Did you do anything I didn't expect? Did you use anything fresh, or use something expected in an unexpected way? Did you use old standbys, or did you come up with something new? I may or may not penalize for having a similar build element to another chef, depending on just how similar the build element is. This SI is really easy to qualify for (and thus doesn't have an obvious entry path), so do your best to be unique about it!

Power: To borrow some 4e terminology, is your character worth the extra XP budget? In other words, suppose that you were the 4th member of the party, and the GM is therefore throwing challenges at you that are appropriate for a 4-person party. Is the party better off having you there, or would the party be better off with a 3-person party (fighting challenges appropriate for a 3-person party)?

Beyond that, how do you expand on your entry? You've got at least 10 (though hopefully not more than 10) levels that aren't Thunder Guide—how does Thunder Guide expand upon them and make them better? I will penalize if you rely heavily on items—in Iron Chef, items should generally be a luxury, not a necessity. Furthermore, at what levels is this build sturdy and playable? I don't necessarily expect you to be at full power at level 1, but the longer you take to come into your own, the less happy I will be. Similarly, if you fail to scale past a certain level, I'm not going to be happy about that either—I'm going to be realistic and not necessarily expect that you'll shine at every point from 1 to 20, but the more levels you can really contribute at, the better.

Also, don't neglect out-of-combat usefulness, if you can help it at all. I will be looking at your skills and your out-of-combat tricks just as much as your fighting ability, so try to be well-rounded. Also, the less you make me say "it's very nice, but what does it DO?", the better off you're going to be.

I will also note that I am very much not fond of races that aren't ECL 0. I do NOT assume that LA buyoff is in play. As far as I'm concerned, every LA you take is a level you're not getting. (This means that I'm going to view you as less capable in the early levels, and if your 20th level is in Thunder Guide, it will mean that I assume that you didn't actually complete the SI, which might cost you in UoSI.)

Elegance: If I were looking at your build one level at a time, totally unaware of what you were doing after each level, how often would I say "ah, that choice makes sense" vs. "why the hell did you take THAT at this level?" Prereqs are an unfortunate reality in 3.5, but the less often you have to say "it'll pay off in four levels, trust me," the better.

I don't penalize for dips as long as I can see why you took what you took when you took it. If a dip is totally out there and doesn't seem to make sense, I'll penalize for that, but if it clearly helps you meet a prereq, shore up a weakness, get some kind of new trick, or if it otherwise fits what you're going for, I'm not going to automatically penalize just because you only took a level or two in something (nor am I necessarily going to be automatically impressed with XYZ 10 / Thunder Guide 10). Just make sure that I know why you did what you did. Similarly, whenever you stop taking a given class, try to make it at a natural breakpoint. Don't leave me wondering why you stopped just short of getting a really cool ability, or why you took another level that didn't do much for you after you got the ability you obviously came for.

I don't penalize for drawing from a wide variety of sources. This is a very Eberron-specific PrC, so you would be wise to avoid anything that's too tightly tied to Forgotten Realms or other campaign settings, but if you can strongly justify it to me, I don't care how many sources you had to pull together to make this work.

In total, how well does the build flow from level to level? How well does everything fit together? Did you have any nicely dovetailing prereqs, any elegant ways of covering up weaknesses, or anything like that? Does your usefulness flow smoothly from level to level without "three levels of uselessness followed by a spike of awesome" too often?

Use of Secret Ingredient: This is going to be a hard category to please me in this time around. Your job is to convince me that your build is stronger for having taken Thunder Guide than it would have been for taking more levels in whatever else you are. That's my biggest concern in this category. You need to answer the question "why are you a Thunder Guide and not just a(n) XYZ?" And of course, the answer "because it's the Secret Ingredient and I had to take it" is NOT going to get you a good grade.

Beyond that, I want to see you taking as many levels as possible—I will almost always penalize if you don't take all 10 levels, unless you do a really, really good job of convincing me otherwise. I want to see you using as many class abilities as possible—I know that that's a tough order for this SI, but that's part of the challenge. I want you to convince me that there is something your Thunder Guide does better than any other non-Thunder Guide can do. Good luck.

Presentation/Other: First, cite your sources. I know 3.5 pretty darn well, but I don't want to have to rely on memory to figure out where everything is. Entries without a complete source list WILL take a –1 penalty in Elegance; no exceptions.

Second, I think I'm a pretty smart guy, but I don't want you to rely on that. Explain everything you take and everything you do. I will be much, much happier if you're explaining why you took this feat, that skill trick, that ability, whatever, even if you're telling me something I already know, than if I'm left guessing "and why the hell did you take THAT?" If you're relying on a certain ability to set up a given scenario, tell me that! If you took this class to set you up for another feat, tell me that! If you're planning on using a certain skill to make you better at fighting, tell me that! If you're relying on a given skill trick to cover a certain weakness, tell me that! If you don't tell me what you're doing, there's a good chance that I will assume that you didn't intend for it to be that way, and I might not give you the credit you think you earned.

Finally, please, please make your entry easy to read. That means formatting it nicely, not giving me massive walls of text, not hiding your overall strategy in six different places (PLEASE don't sprinkle your actual build strategy across pages and pages of fluff text), not giving me a headache as I try to follow your skill points, not making me translate your build back from Elvish, and so on. I know that this is a fluff-heavy class, but as far as I'm concerned, less is more—give me enough to have the build make sense, but I'm looking at you for a build, not a novel. I will not directly penalize for fluff or for similar concerns, but I will probably be harsher in my judgments (and/or less likely to show leniency) if you get me in a bad mood by making me dig through a ten-page novella when I'm just trying to figure out why the hell you took a certain feat.

This is a tough class. I'm judging basically because I'm giving up on cooking, and I recognize that. The class really does not offer a ton of benefits, so you've got a tricky job ahead of you. But dammit, I want to be involved somehow, so judging it is.

Don't make me regret this, guys.

WeaselGuy

2015-02-06, 03:28 PM

Well, now I'm starting to wish I had waited to see all this judging criteria, instead of submitting my build 10 days ago. Anyone who enters now will definitely have an advantage, so long as they format their entries to suit a particular judge's criteria. I'm not saying mine is particularly horrible, in fact, I'm pretty sure I covered most of the high-points that judges had since talked about, but I feel that now, if by chance I had missed something and try to dispute it, I will be rebutted with "Well, I said this is what I was looking for, it's your fault for not following my judging criteria."

Of course, with all the hate this class seems to have garnered, I don't see that being as large of a problem as it could be.

Zaq

2015-02-06, 03:47 PM

Heliomance

2015-02-06, 07:29 PM

You've got a couple days left. You can always update your build and send the revised version to the Chair, if you want to. Heliomance is not a dumb person. She'll know to use the revised version and not the original.

Um, I seem to have two copies of one of the builds now. I'm confused - shoujld I just post both?
No, I'm not serious :P

WeaselGuy

2015-02-06, 10:31 PM

Um, I seem to have two copies of one of the builds now. I'm confused - shoujld I just post both?
No, I'm not serious :P

*cough* It was just a few minor tweaks >.>

sakuuya

2015-02-06, 10:40 PM

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-06, 10:55 PM

Grr, I don't think I'm going to be able to enter this. I just don't have the motivation to do a full writeup because of the problem WBS and Sian mentioned. The only thing I'm sad about is that my extremely silly fluff is going to go to waste.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooo! My chance of failure!

sakuuya

2015-02-06, 10:57 PM

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooo! My chance of failure!

That many Os may make me reconsider. :smallwink:

WeaselGuy

2015-02-06, 11:01 PM

The Viscount

2015-02-07, 04:55 PM

Don't lose hope. If I can finish my build you'll get your chance at failure.

Chronos

2015-02-07, 07:05 PM

...And, there's my entry. I always forget how long those fiddly little bits take to finalize. Creating a 20-level build all in one go takes forever.

Venger

2015-02-08, 02:13 AM

I'm going insane trying to finish. this is some SI.

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-08, 02:19 AM

I'm going insane trying to finish. this is some SI.

Welcome, you've become one of us
one of us,
one of us,
one of us,
one of us...

Venger

2015-02-08, 05:10 AM

Welcome, you've become one of us
one of us,
one of us,
one of us,
one of us...

been cooking for 7 an a half hours. my eyes are bleeding.

truly we are blessed to have such a secret ingredient

The Viscount

2015-02-08, 05:52 AM

I certainly know that feeling. This took way longer than I wanted it to. You've got your competition, KrimsonNekros.

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:00 AM

And that's time!

...what are you talking about? I'm not an hour late. Not at all.

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:01 AM

Heading up the League of Extraordinary Adventurers:

Al’ayn Q’tarmayn
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3467/shadowwarrior.jpg

Half-Drow Scout 5/Hit & Run Tactics Fighter 1/Thunder Guide 3/Dread Commando 4/Thunder Guide +7

The Life and Times of Al’ayn Q’tarmayn
Commando with the Extraordinary Gentlemen
Kole Naerrin

This reporter caught up to the prestigious Lord Al’ayn Q’tarmayn, a Half-Drow former military man of quite some repute, as he was docking his small ship in Stormreach. Always the resourceful guide, Lord Q’tarmayn promptly tapped the bow of his vessel, and uttered a command word that was indecipherable to even my learned ears, and his ship proceeded to fold in on itself, until it resembled nothing more than a small book shaped box, engraved with a watery motif. I would come to find that this is just one of many useful items that the legendary adventurer carries on his person at any given time. But let’s take this story back a few years, and start from the beginning.
Al’ayn began his adult life by joining the Brelish Army as a messenger, but quickly proved his mettle in combat and displayed great stealth and cunning, and was soon reassigned as a Scout. He spent his military career in distinguished service as a forward scout, a distance skirmisher, and a guide for strategic insertion forces, operating out of both the Seren and Xendrik theaters. (Levels 1-5)

After separating from the military, Al’ayn decided to spend his retirement commission to start up a small guide service operating on the Thunder Coast. During this time, he successfully treated with a Drow Family that lived slightly inland of Xendrik, and was gifted an enchanted Xendrik Boomerang as a token of their appreciation when he helped them fight off a rampaging Giant that had come to repossess an ancient artifact. Al’ayn still treasures this gift, and regularly employs its use in his travels, along with an unnaturally sharp kukri that he received from a tribe of Sahuagin (sea-devils to those of you used to the slang term), and a greatly enchanted composite longbow, which he initially received during his military service, and has since continuously had re-enchanted to serve his ever growing needs. But, back to the period at hand, it wasn’t long after Lord Q’tarmayn started up his guide company that he was approached by a few other prior servicemen, who inquired after his interest in pursuing a joint venture with them as auxiliary forces for hire. And thus was formed the mercenary group known as “The Extraordinary Gentlemen”. (Levels 6-10)

The Extraordinary Gentlemen (known colloquially as The Ex G’s) acted as a rough and tumble group of experienced former military men for hire, commonly operating as a special forces group focused on stealthy infiltration and sabotage of enemy siege camps, and even removing certain key leaders from the field of battle before the battle even started. Al’ayn’s role in the group was, as during his formal service period, that of forward scout and ranged ambusher. Their successful operations served to gain the future Lord Q’tarmayn the venture capital he would need to bring his guide operation up to competitive status with the other Thunder Guides operating along the Thunder Coast. (Levels 11-15)

Now back in his so-called retirement, Al’ayn focuses more on guiding would be adventurers and kitted up nobles up and down the Thunder Coast, introducing them to his adopted Drow family and showing them the terrifying Sahuagin Marauders that prowl the Shargon’s Teeth off the coast of Stormreach. He also takes adventurers and scholars to Seren Isle, promising safe passage and using his connections on the island with the barbarian natives to allow his customers the time they require for studying the unique statues on the island, as well as offering them a launch point for the Dragon continent Argonnesson. (Levels 16-20)
It was on his return from one of these trips that I finally caught up with Lord Q’tarmayn, who explained to me some of the finer points of his history, including a few awe-inspiring anecdotes about his run ins with large sea creatures, trained Giant Sorcerers, and even his encounters with the raging Humans of Seren. His most dangerous foe so far though?
“House Lyrandar’s eligible Half-Elf bachelorettes at their annual airship galas!”

Half-Drow
Identical to Half Elf (Favored Class: Any, Immune to Sleep Spells and effects, +2 Racial bonus to Will saving throws versus Enchant spells and effects, +1 to Listen, Search and Spot, +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information, except had Darkvision instead of Low-Light Vision, and is Drow-Blooded (which is an extension of Elf-Blooded).

Attribute
Base Score
Bonus from Level
Score at 20

Strength
12
12, 16, 20
15

Dexterity
16
4, 8
18

Constitution
12
-
12

Intelligence
14
-
14

Wisdom
14
-
14

Charisma
10
-
10

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Scout
+0
+0
+2
+0
Diplomacy 2, Hide 4, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4, Knowledge (Geography) 4, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Search 4, Spot 4, Survival 4
Point Blank Shot
Skirmish (+1d6), Trapfinding

2nd
Scout
+1
+0
+3
+0
Hide 5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 5, Knowledge (Geography) 5, Knowledge (Nature) 5, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Search 5, Spot 5, Survival 5
-
Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge

3rd
Scout
+2
+1
+3
+1
Diplomacy 3, Hide 6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 6, Knowledge (Geography) 6, Knowledge (Nature) 6, Listen 6, Move Silently 6, Search 6, Spot 6, Survival 6
Rapid Shot
Fast Movement +10 ft, Skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), Trackless Step

4th
Scout
+3
+1
+3
+1
Hide 7, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 7, Knowledge (Geography) 7, Knowledge (Nature) 7, Listen 7, Move Silently 7, Search 7, Spot 7, Survival 7
Dodge
Bonus Feat

5th
Scout
+3
+1
+4
+1
Diplomacy 4, Hide 8, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 8, Knowledge (Geography) 8, Knowledge (Nature) 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 8, Search 8, Spot 8, Survival 8
-
Evasion, Skirmish (+2d6, +1AC)

6th
Fighter
+4
+3
+4
+1
Handle Animal 2, Ride 2
Mobility, Improved Skirmish
Bonus Feat, Hit & Run Tactics

7th
Thunder Guide
+4
+5
+4
+2
Diplomacy 10
-
Speak Language (Giant)

8th
Thunder Guide
+5
+6
+4
+1
Diplomacy 11, Knowledge (Local) 5
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Xendrik Boomerang)
Thunder Lore (Xendrik Boomerang Expert)

9th
Thunder Guide
+6/+1
+6
+5
+2
Diplomacy 12, Knowledge (Local) 10
Many Shot
Native Ties (Drow of Xendrik)

10th
Dread Commando
+7/+2
+6
+7
+2
Diplomacy 13, Hide 13, Move Silently 9
-
Sudden Strike (+1d6), Team Initiative Bonus

11th
Dread Commando
+8/+3
+6
+8
+2
Diplomacy 14, Hide 14, Move Silently 14
-
Armored Ease 2

12th
Dread Commando
+9/+4
+7
+8
+3
Diplomacy 15, Hide 15, Move Silently 15, Listen 12
Greater Many Shot
Sudden Strike (+2d6)

13th
Dread Commando
+10/+5
+7
+9
+3
Diplomacy 16, Hide 16, Move Silently 16, Listen 16
-
Armored Ease 4, Stealthy Movement

14th
Thunder Guide
+11/+6/+1
+8
+9
+3
Diplomacy 17, Gather Information 5
-
Speak Language (Draconic), Thunder Lore (Ghost of Xendirk)

15th
Thunder Guide
+11/+6/+1
+8
+9
+3
Diplomacy 18, Gather Information 10
Woodland Archer
Lionized in the Press

16th
Thunder Guide
+12/+7/+2
+9
+10
+4
Diplomacy 19, Gather Information 15
-
Native Ties (Sahuagin of Shargon’s Teeth), Rescue Artist, Thunder Lore (Dragonsong)

17th
Thunder Guide
+13/+8/+3
+9
+10
+4
Diplomacy 20, Gather Information 20
-
Speak Language (Sahuagin)

18th
Thunder Guide
+14/+9/+4
+10
+10
+4
Diplomacy 21, Sense Motive 5
Able Sniper
Social Hero, Thunder Lore (Pandin Temn)

19th
Thunder Guide
+14/+9/+4
+10
+11
+4
Diplomacy 22, Sense Motive 10
-
Native Ties (Seren Barbarians)

20th
Thunder Guide
+15/+10/+5
+11
+11
+5
Diplomacy 23, Gather Information 20, Handle Animal 2, Hide 16, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 8, Knowledge (Geography) 8, Knowledge (Local) 10, Knowledge (Nature) 8, Listen 16, Move Silently 16, Ride 2, Search 8, Sense Motive 15, Spot 8, Survival 8
-
Society Peer, Speak Language (Celestial), Thunder Lore (Seren Hide)

At all levels, Al'ayn is primarily a ranged skirmisher. His tactics will always involve hiding, and then moving in order to trigger skirmish damage.

Levels 1-5 At this point in his career, Al'ayn is your standard ranged Scout. His tactics will consist mostly of hiding and moving silently to get within decent range, then breaking cover and skirmishing.
Levels 6-10 Now, Al'ayn's damage goes up a bit, thanks to Hit and Run Tactics, in addition to his initiative. At level 10, he also gets to help his teammates out a bit with his Team Initiative Bonus. We all know it's better if the group gets to attack before the enemies.
Levels 11-15 Al'ayn finishes up with his time as a Dread Commando, allowing him full movement while hiding and moving silently, and dives back into being a Thunder Guide. He uses his Thunder Guide levels to primarily increase his "party face value", and also to negotiate a better deal for himself in his business ventures.
Levels 16-20 More of the same as before. He doesn't really gain any more combat abilities, although his sniping capabilities increase from Able Sniper, allowing him to negate the -20 to hide after shooting from cover.

Thunder Lore

Xen'drik Boomerang Expert: You gain the Exotic Weapon Profi ciency (Xen'drik boomerang) feat. As well, when you throw a Xen'drik boomerang, its range increment increases to 30 feet and you never fail your attack roll to catch a returning Xen'drik boomerang.
Ghost of Xen'drik: In any jungle environment, you gain a +4 competence bonus on Hide, Move Silently, and Survival checks.
Dragonsong (Ex): Once only (and even then but far away), you have heard the dragons wake the hills of Argonnessen with song. Having been witness to the tragic glory of dragonsong, you are immune to the charms of lesser songs (the captivating song of harpies, the fascinate and suggestion spell-like abilities of a bard, and so on). As well, you gain a +4 insight bonus on saving throws made to resist any other charm effect.
Pandin Temn (Ex): You have trained at the side of drow to become a pandin temn, a scourge of giants. You gain a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on attack rolls when fi ghting any creature that is Large or larger.
Seren Hide (Ex): Your skin becomes rough like the hide of the Seren jungle beasts. You gain a +1 natural armor bonus.

Native Ties

Drow of Xen'drik: You forge ties with a family of drow living within 50 miles of the Thunder Sea coast (you designate your drow family's specifi c location). When you visit, your adoptive dark elf brothers furnish you with up to two of any of the following: vials of antitoxin, glyphbooks, fl asks of acidic fire, Mabar crystals, and noxious smokesticks. If you make a DC 15 Diplomacy check, you can also have any one of the following spells cast for you: dispel magic, remove curse, or remove disease (all CL 5th). Other spells might be available at the DM's discretion.
Sahuagin of Shargon's Teeth: You have right of passage through Shargon's Teeth. If sahuagin raiders attack your ship on its way across the Thunder Sea to Xen'drik or elsewhere, you can present yourself and make a DC 20 Diplomacy check to raise the Sahugin's attitude from hostile to unfriendly (though you gain no such benefi t with other sea creatures). Additionally, you can hire mercenaries from the aquatic races of the area, including sahuagin, merrow (aquatic ogres), scrags (aquatic trolls), and locathah. Aquatic mercenaries work anywhere in the greater Thunder Sea, but do not take their dangerous work lightly, hiring on for no less than 70 gp each per day.
Seren Barbarians: You can trade with the Seren barbarians as if you bore a dragonmark. When in a Seren village, you can make a DC 15 Diplomacy check with the village's Shroud of Scales (see page 98) to purchase up to two potions (2nd-level or lower) at half the normal price. As well, with a successful DC 20 Diplomacy check, you can purchase one Quaal's feather token at half the normal price.

While Al'ayn Q'tarmayn can certainly hold his own with just a Composite Longbow, as a "mundane" combatant, it should be noted that he will undoubtedly perform better with a variety of magical items. In his career as a military man and expedition guide, Al'ayn acquired his fair share of wealth, and spent it accordingly.

As such, Lord Q'tarmayn spares no expense when it comes to his equipment. As a military man from the beginning of his career, he learned the three rules of personal maintenance. "You care for yourself first and foremost, your equipment second, and your transportation third". To that extent, he has no shortage of functional gear, including, primarily, his bow. This bad boy is a +2 Precise Force Composite (2) Longbow. It can pretty much handle just about whatever comes in front of Al'ayn. He also carries a +1 Xendrik Boomerang, and a +1 Keen Kukri. He also wears a +1 Soulfire Mithral Breastplate, Skirmisher Boots, Greater Bracers of Archery and a Scout's Headband, and keeps a Piwafwi handy for times of stealth. He also has his own Folding Boat and a Daern's Instant Tent, along with an Everful Mug and his own Everlasting Rations. These items are in addition to any of the standard defensive items you could expect an experienced adventurer to carry, such as a Ring of Protection, Vest of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor and Belt of Magnificence.

Complete Adventurer (Scout)
Complete Warrior (Feats)
Heroes of Battle (Dread Commando)
Races of the Wild (Feats and Gear)
Magic Item Compendium (Gear)
Eberron - Explorer's Handbook (Thunder Guide)
Eberron Campaign Setting (Locations)
Dungeon Master's Guide (Magic Items)
Player's Handbook (Fighter, Feats Skills, and Gear)
Forgotten Realms - Races of Faerun (Half-Drow)
Drow of the Underdark (Fighter ACF)
Picture (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3467/shadowwarrior.jpg) - Google Search for Dark Elf Archer, this one came up in the image panel, referencing back to this post (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2814961)...

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:03 AM

His Eminence, His Excellency, His Academicness, His... oh, who am I kidding?

Lord Prof. Hexler of the thunder guides.

one day a professor at morgrave university looked down on his desk. a collection of parchment
and pens filled it entirely, apart from one ornament that remained in the corner serving as a paperweight.
tomorrows lecture notes were still only half finished time was growing short and inspiration was stretching thin.
taking a sip of wine and trying to get back to it an old tome entered his mind.

he went over to his book case and took out the book, it was a
tome with a brown untreated leather cover and cheap parchment pages.
the only marking on the cover was the number 1.
flicking open the book he read about a stout-hearted young man who toiled through
what a lecturer at this university thought was an abandoned dungeon, only to find
a beholder who had made it its home.
the next page was adventuring through the thunder sea, a shipmate, recounting a close
encounter with a dire shark.
near the end of the book, the writing gets less hectic and more structured, the young man's
penmanship obviously improving.
the last story tells of an encounter with a rogue aereni elf, trying to devise a ritual to
awaken all his ancestors, and him and his party. including an artificer from
morgrave jumped in at the last minute saving the entire region.

picking up books 2 through 24 he sits down to revise his knowledge of this
legendary adventurer, one who was the topic of many of his lectures.
for the next 8 hours he reads from low risk treks through the jungles of xen'rick
and meeting and saving a local family of drow,
to seeing the hills of Argonnessen literally come to life with just the
single song from a group of dragons.
one of his highlights was befriending and forming a bond with a storm giant from xen'drik
a fellow by the name of gaarlex. he appears in many of the later books, whenever
the young man needed advice in an hour of need.
spanning a career of 24 years in the outreach program and one book for each year
that he furthered the knowledge of the university.

at the end of the final book he reads about the legends retirement as an adventurer.
he had been offered a life long job recounting his tales and giving his insights into the world.

looking around his office, you would not think at first glance that this dusty
old venerable professor, who spends his days recounting his amazing knowledge of
the world to students of the university, was once a great and mighty adventurer
who spent his days in the outreach program, protecting those who could be
considered his predecessors.

now, at the ripe old age of 78, he has been a professor for 30 years. he longed
to see all his old friends, to see the wonders of the world that were now distant
but vivid memories in his old age. but alas he had a lecture tomorrow about his journeys
through the demon wastes.
feeling a tear come to his eye he sat down and had another sip of fine wine to finish writing his speech.

an hour later and by candle light he looked down again. seeing his half written speech
laying on the corner of his desk and instead a note written to the faculty of the university.
he grabbed his old belongings, his old cloak and armour. and set off into the night.

a lot of his back story from level 10 onwards is described above.
before becoming a thunder guide he was a young monk living in a monastery in xen'drik.
he did not fit in well as the other monks used there keen senses and wise teachings to develop their abilities,
hexler relied on his quick wits and calculated moves to dodge, and to strike,
this eventually meant he had to leave the monastery as he quickly became the most intelligent member there and no more to learn.

he spent many many years travelling, learning a little bit from everything he could find. devoting his time to more
skills and training then anyone he knew, the more he learned the better his understanding of the world and its people.
this way he always knew what he was fighting and how to best defeat it tactically with as little exertion as possible.

he learned the basics of magic, both arcane and divine, and made many friends.
he was a peoples man and hired himself as a protector and guide to the rich,
one rich man ended up being a professor at morgrave, and invited him to the outreach program, where is vast wealth of skills
earned him a huge reputation. he then joined the thunder guides and spent his time escorting those on the program all over eberron.
eventually becoming so renown that he was given many titles and a professorship.

decisive strike passive way invisible fist monk 2/ factotum 8/thunder guide 10

str 16
dex 8
con 12
int 16 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
wis 10
cha 14

to these add a tome +5 int and a +6 int item. for a total of 32 int.
at some point a +2 wisdom item is wanted to get 4 uses of opportunistic piety. other good stats to improve are str, con and cha (purely fluff for cha really)

you end with 15 inspiration points.

Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features 1st decisive strike passive way invisible fist monk 1 0 2 2 2 (languages - common, elven , draconic, dwarven) knowledge arcana 4, knowledge religion 4, tumble 4, diplomacy 4, sense motive 4, spot 4, listen 4, climb 1, balance 1, jump 1, escape artist 1 kung fu genious, (human) travel devotion, bonus feat - combat expertise. +2 bluff, decisive strike, unarmed strike (1d6), 2nd decisive strike passive way invisible fist monk 2 1 3 3 3 knowledge arcana 5, knowledge religion 5, tumble 5, diplomacy 5, sense motive 5, spot 5, listen 5, swim 1 bonus feat - improved trip. invisible fist. 3rd factotum 1 1 3 5 3 knowledge arcana 6, knowledge religion 6, knowledge local 6, knowledge geography 1,
knowledge dungeoneering 1 knowledge devotion (arcana) inspiration 2, cunning insight, cunning knowledge, trapfinding 4th factotum 2 2 3 6 3 knowledge arcana 7, knowledge religion 7, knowledge local 7, knowledge geography 5, knowledge history 1, knowledge arc and eng 1, knowledge nature 1 arcane dilettante 1 (lvl 0)
inspiration 3, 5th factotum 3 3 4 6 4 knowledge arcana 8, knowledge religion 8, knowledge local 8, knowledge nature 5, nob and roy 1, knowledge psionics 1, spellcraft 1 brains over brawn, cunning defence, arcane dilettante 1 (lvl 1) 6th factotum 4 4 4 7 4 knowledge arcana 9, knowledge religion 9, knowledge local 9, spellcraft 5, diplomacy 7, survival 1 knockdown arcane dilettante 2 (lvl 1), cunning strike 7th factotum 5 4 4 7 4 knowledge arcana 10, knowledge religion 10, knowledge local 10, decipher script 1, appraise 1, disable device 1, disguise 1, forgery 1, gather information 1, handle animal 1 inspiration 4, opportunistic piety (3/day), arcane dilettante 2 (lvl 2) 8th factotum 6 5 5 8 5 knowledge arcana 11, knowledge religion 11, knowledge local 11, heal 1, hide 1, move silently 1, intimidate 1, open lock 1, ride 1, search 1, use magic device 1 9th factotum 7 6/1 5 8 5 knowledge arcana 12, knowledge religion 12, knowledge local 12, sleight of hand 1, use rope 1, auto hypnosis 1, psicraft 1, use psionic device 1, martial lore 1, truespeak 1, diplomacy 8 font of inspiration +1 arcane dilettante 3 (lvl 2) 10th factotum 8 7/2 5 9 5 knowledge arcana 13, knowledge religion 13, knowledge local 13, knowledge dungeoneering 5, craft alchemy 1, craft poisonmaking 1.
skill tricks, collector of stories (2pts) arcane dilettante 2 (lvl 3), cunning surge, inspiration 5 11th thunder guide 1 7/2 7 9 5 knowledge arcana 14, diplomacy 14, profession sailor 1, survival 2
speak language - undercommon 12th thunder guide 2 8/3 8 9 5 knowledge arcana 15, diplomacy 15, profession sailor 2, survival 6, gather information 2, knowledge geography 6, font of inspiration +2 (+3) thunder lore - malenti pearl trick, 13th thunder guide 3 9/4 8 10 6 knowledge arcana 16, diplomacy 16, profession sailor 3, knowledge geography 7, bluff 5 native ties - drow of xen'drik 14th thunder guide 4 10/5 9 10 6 knowledge arcana 17, diplomacy 17, profession sailor 5, knowledge geography 8, spot 7, listen 7 speak language - giant, thunder lore - dragon song 15th thunder guide 5 10/5 9 10 6 knowledge arcana 18, diplomacy 18, knowledge geography 10, spot 10, listen 9 font of inspiration +3 (+6) lionized in the press 16th thunder guide 6 11/6/1 10 11 7 knowledge arcana 19, diplomacy 19, spot 12, listen 12, survival 9 native ties - storm giant gaarlex, rescue artist, thunder lore - savage of the storm 17th thunder guide 7 12/7/2 10 11 7 knowledge arcana 20, diplomacy 20, spot 13, listen 13,
survival 15 speak language - celestial 18th thunder guide 8 13/8/3 11 11 7 knowledge arcana 21, diplomacy 21, spot 16, listen 16, survival 17 font of inspiration +4 (+10) serial hero, thunder lore - savage of the mists 19th thunder guide 9 13/8/3 11 12 8 knowledge arcana 22, diplomacy 22, spot 18, listen 18, survival 21 native ties - elves of pylas talaear 20th thunder guide 10 14/9/4 12 12 8 knowledge arcana 23, diplomacy 23, survival 23, spot 21, listen 18 society peer, speak language - aquan , thunder lore - seren hide

skills - every skill has 1 point in it so that you can add cunning knowledge to it.
brains over brawn means that skills with few ranks in that are str/dex have a huge boost. so although i have little in climb or the likes i add my int and my relevant score and can boost with my factotum level, i am very capable due to this.
the skill amounts may not look very neat, and i have only included the new skill points gained rather then keep the whole skill list in, they are in the order i felt the character would gain them from his experiences (like more bluff whilst around drow, more survival and spot/listen whilst a thunder guide, profession sailor as he sails at the beginning of thunder guide, and knowledges as a travelling intelligent man trying to learn anything and everything.)

low levels, using travel devotion i can move up to and then full round decisive strike my opponents. dealing double damage on my (pretty average) unarmed strikes, or i can trip (adding int as its a str check at level 5) and cause an attack after. i am usually denying dex due to invisible fist, and kung fu genious gives int to AC,
gaining knowledge devotion at level 3 offsets some of my decisive strike or non full BAB penalties. giving me a good chance to hit. and using my few points of inspiration to hit rather then anything else would give me a bonus to hit comparable to a full BAB melee combatant so i don't fall behind, and i even overtake it
lvl 5 example, barbarian 16 str +rage + 5 BAB +m/w weapon = 11 ish to hit,
me, BAB 3, 16 str, +3 int + 1-3 knowledge = 10-12 ish to hit.
i also gain a 1st level spell 1/day, grease is a good example, or glitterdust, pick a BFC or long term buff for my spell if i don't know what i will need.

after level 5 up to 10 i gain more spells up to 3 spells up to level 3. same guidelines as above.
at level 6 i get knockdown, meaning i no longer have to pick between strike or trip, i essentially double my one double damage strike as well as have them tripped. with my bonus to tumble i can usually avoid AoO from people that have a greater reach as i charge.
opportunistic piety can be used to fuel travel devotion, so it is more then 1/day it gives turn attempts, and it requires attempts, not the class feature (i have checked)
my inspiration pool has started to grow a little, up to 5 points and when i hit level 10 i get cunning surge. this is my sweet spot.
using this i have travel devotion up to them, with enough boosts to avoid AoO with tumble.
i full round action to decisive strike, i hit due to my bonuses from int to hit and knowledge devotion, double damage, get a free trip (with int to trip passively), double damage again, then cunning surge to get another attack (which is double damage by the way decisive strike works).
if they survive and want to stand then blah de blah AoO from me.

after level 10, fonts of inspiration give more inspiration points to use more boosts and more extra attacks,
i gain immunities and resistances to song based stuff and charm or compulsions respectively.
charm person and obscuring mist 1/day
ability to boost my strength.
a bonus to natural armour.
and a few nice friends along the way, including gaarlex the storm giant.
rescue artist goes well with my nice shiny pony bought from my income i get. and i get a reasonable boost in wealth later.

all in all i combine my knowledge of basicly everything, my ability to help those in need, get out of there fast if needed and my ability to punch enemies to death in a calculated manor to be a great thunder guide. and being able to stay alive that long earned me my professorship.

as said before a tome and a few ability boost items are useful, a necklace of natural attacks and a monks belt work. just the standard stuff other then that. not heavily reliant on it being needed.
that being said, a way of turning my fists into touch attacks would be really useful, as well as ghost touch e.t.c

PHB (monk and basic feats)
PHB2 (decisive strike acf pg. 51)
Exemlars of evil (invisible fist acf pg.21)
unearthed arcana (passive way acf)
dungeonscape (factotum)
dragon compendium (kung fu genius acf)
complete champion (devotion feats)
WOTC online web enhancemant (font of inspiration)
sword and fist (knock-down feat)

and of course
special thanks to the explorers handbook and thunder guide.

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:09 AM

I'm sure I used to have an easier time coming up with witticisms for these things.

http://dreamworlds.ru/uploads/posts/2011-10/thumbs/1319276042_572_max.jpg
Noamuth, The Aberrant
Half-Drow, CN, Whirling Frenzy Spiritual Totem Barbarian 2/ Champion of the Wild (Ranger) 4/ Heir of Khyber 4/ Thunder Guide 10
It was a usual day at the Wavecrest Tavern. The chatter of regulars and new arrivals talking kept the atmosphere buzzing. Aida was ever her cheerful self, kept busy by the orders of customers. The majority of the buzz seemed to die in an instant however as a scorpion of seemingly abnormal size wandered into the tavern. Aida turned to see what the commotion was and smiled.

“Hello Kassi. If you're here, then that means,” She looked up to see a hooded figure walk in. “Noamuth isn't far behind. I'll get your regular going and see if I can't find something for Kassi as well.” The figure pulled his hood down revealing his long white hair and dark skin. White tattoos adorned the left side of his face, and a Dragonmark wrapped up his neck. He nodded to the girl and made a quick snap of his fingers walking to a table in the back. The scorpion let out a loud chirp and followed him.

As he took a seat the buzz resumed in the tavern as everyone resumed their conversations. One of the patrons looked at him curiously before turning to the ogress sitting next to him. “Regular here?”

“Kassinel or The Aberrant?” The confused look gave her a little chuckle. “Noamuth is one of the better Thunder Guides around here. He knows the jungles of Xen'drik and it's dangers better than anyone else. Course it makes sense given that he was born and raised out there.”

The patron quirked an eyebrow. “He's one of those infamous drow then?”

The gnome sitting across the table chimed in. “Half-drow technically. Claims his father's one of the Seren barbarians, but he hasn't been able to find out who he is, so it's anyone's guess, including his, if he's actually telling the truth there. Still wouldn't want to question him on it. He's very protective of his tribe. He may come to the city a lot, but the boy's Vulkoori through and through.”

The new patron seemed utterly confused. “Vulkoori? What do you mean?”

The ogress spoke. “He worships Vulkoor like most of the drow tribes. The tribal drow are very protective of their families, and don't speak of them much. Fortunately he's not one of the one's that's bent on ousting every nondrow from Xen'drik. He just wants to find the most dangerous game he can. To that end, he'll go anywhere, and he's the best tracker you're going to find this side of Khorvaire.”

“And he's got the influence and ties to get a hunting party in just about anywhere in Thunder Sea region.” The gnome seemed almost impressed as he spoke. “The Aberrant's your best bet if you want to be hunting these lands make no mistake.”

Strength Dexterity Constitution Intelligence Wisdom Charisma Reason
14 16 10 14 10 14 32-point buy
15 16 10 14 10 14 4th
15 17 10 14 10 14 8th
15 18 10 14 10 14 12th
15 19 10 14 10 14 16th
15 20 10 14 10 14 20th

Languages Spoken At 1st Level
Drow, Common, Giant, Draconic

Level Class BAB Fort Ref Will Skills Feats Features
1 Champion of the Wild +1 + 2 + 2 + 0 Climb (Str) 2, Diplomacy (Cha)2, Handle Animal (Cha) 4, Hide (Dex) 2, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 2, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 2, Listen (Wis) 4, Move Silently (Dex) 4, Spot (Wis) 4, Survival (Wis) 4 Blessed of Vulkoor, Track Favored Enemy (Giant), Wild Empathy, 1/day (Acid Splash, Detect Poison, Pass Without a Trace)
2 Champion of the Wild +2 + 3 + 3 + 0 Climb (Str) 2, Diplomacy (Cha)2.5, Handle Animal (Cha) 5, Hide (Dex) 2, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 4, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 2, Listen (Wis) 5, Move Silently (Dex) 5, Spot (Wis) 5, Survival (Wis) 5 - Combat Style (TWF)
3 Barbarian +3 + 5 + 3 + 0 Climb (Str) 2, Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Handle Animal (Cha) 6, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 2, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 4, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 2, Listen (Wis) 6, Move Silently (Dex) 5, Spot (Wis) 5, Survival (Wis) 6 Abberant Dragonmark Whirling Frenzy, Spiritual Totem (Lion), 1/day (Shield)
4 Barbarian +4 + 6 + 3 + 0 Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Handle Animal (Cha) 7, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 4, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 2, Listen (Wis) 7, Move Silently (Dex) 5, Spot (Wis) 5, Survival (Wis) 7 - Uncanny Dodge
5 Thunder Guide +4 + 8 + 3 + 0 Balance (Dex) 2, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Handle Animal (Cha) 7, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 4, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 2, Listen (Wis) 7, Move Silently (Dex) 5, Spot (Wis) 6, Survival (Wis) 8 - Speak language (Argon)
6 Champion of the Wild +5 + 8 + 3 + 1 Balance (Dex) 2, Climb (Str) 3,Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Handle Animal (Cha) 9, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 4, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 4, Listen (Wis) 9, Move Silently (Dex) 5, Spot (Wis) 7, Survival (Wis) 9 Drow Skirmisher, Endurance -
7 Champion of the Wild +6/+1 + 9 + 4 + 1 Balance (Dex) 2, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 9, Move Silently (Dex) 5, Spot (Wis) 8, Survival (Wis) 10 - Animal Companion (Medium Monstrous Scorpion)
8 Heir of Khyber +6/+1 + 11 + 6 + 3 Balance (Dex) 2.5, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 11, Move Silently (Dex) 6, Spot (Wis) 8, Survival (Wis) 10, Tumble (Dex) 2 Lesser Abberant Dragonmark Aberrant Affinity, 2/day (Shield, Touch of Idiocy)
9 Thunder Guide +7/+2 + 12 + 6 + 3 Balance (Dex) 3, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Gather Information (Cha) 3, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 11, Move Silently (Dex) 6, Spot (Wis) 9, Survival (Wis) 11, Tumble (Dex) 2 Dodge Thunder Lore (Ghost of Xen'drik)
10 Thunder Guide +8/+3 + 12 + 7 + 4 Balance (Dex) 3.5, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 3, Gather Information (Cha) 6, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 11, Move Silently (Dex) 6, Spot (Wis) 10, Survival (Wis) 12, Tumble (Dex) 2 - Native Ties (Stormreach Irregulars)
11 Thunder Guide +9/+4 + 13 + 7 + 4 Balance (Dex) 4, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 5, Gather Information (Cha) 6, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4 Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 11, Move Silently (Dex) 6, Spot (Wis) 11, Survival (Wis) 14, Tumble (Dex) 2 - Speak Language (Sahaugin), Thunder Lore (Viscious Barbarism)
12 Heir of Khyber +10/+5 + 14 + 8 + 5 Balance (Dex) 4, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 5, Gather Information (Cha) 6, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 8, Spot (Wis) 11, Survival (Wis) 14, Tumble (Dex) 4 Mobility Additional Action Points, Improved Aberrant Dragonmark, 2/day (Touch of Idiocy), 3/day (Shield)
13 Thunder Guide +10/+5 + 14 + 8 + 5 Balance (Dex) 4.5, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 7, Gather Information (Cha) 6, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 8, Spot (Wis) 12, Survival (Wis) 16, Tumble (Dex) 4 - Lionized in the Press
14 Thunder Guide +11/+6/+1 + 15 + 9 + 6 Balance (Dex) 5, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 7, Gather Information (Cha) 7, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 2, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 8, Spot (Wis) 13, Survival (Wis) 17, Tumble (Dex) 4 - Native Ties (Sahuagin of Shargon's Teeth), Rescue Artist, Thunder Lore (Pandin Temn), Clarity of Vision
15 Heir of Khyber +12/+7/+2 + 15 + 9 + 6 Balance (Dex) 5, Climb (Str) 3, Diplomacy (Cha) 7, Gather Information (Cha) 7, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 5, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 10, Spot (Wis) 13, Survival (Wis) 17, Tumble (Dex) 5 Spring Attack Improved Lesser Aberrant Dragonmark, 3/day (Shield, Touch of Idiocy)
16 Thunder Guide +13/+8/+3 + 15 + 9 + 6 Balance (Dex) 5, Climb (Str) 5, Diplomacy (Cha) 7, Gather Information (Cha) 7, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 5, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 10, Spot (Wis) 13, Survival (Wis) 19, Tumble (Dex) 5 - Speak Language (Elven), Nimble Charge
17 Thunder Guide +14/+9/+4 + 16 + 9 + 6 Balance (Dex) 5, Climb (Str) 7, Diplomacy (Cha) 8, Gather Information (Cha) 7, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 5, Jump (Str) 4, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 10, Spot (Wis) 13, Survival (Wis) 20, Tumble (Dex) 5 - Serial Hero, Thunder Lore (Xen'drik Boomerang Expert), Twisted Charge
18 Thunder Guide +14/+9/+4 + 16 + 10 + 7 Balance (Dex) 5, Climb (Str) 9, Diplomacy (Cha) 9, Gather Information (Cha) 7, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 5, Jump (Str) 6, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 10, Spot (Wis) 13, Survival (Wis) 21, Tumble (Dex) 5 Skewer Foe Native Ties (Elves of Pylas Tylaear)
19 Thunder Guide +15/+10/+5 + 17 + 10 + 7 Balance (Dex) 5, Climb (Str) 11, Diplomacy (Cha) 11, Gather Information (Cha) 7, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 5, Jump (Str) 7, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 10, Spot (Wis) 13, Survival (Wis) 22, Tumble (Dex) 5 - Speak Language (Undercommon), Society Peer, Thunder Lore (Breath of Shargon)
20 Heir of Khyber +16/+11/+6/+1 + 18 + 11 + 8 Balance (Dex) 5, Climb (Str) 11, Diplomacy (Cha) 11, Gather Information (Cha) 7, Handle Animal (Cha) 10, Hide (Dex) 10, Jump (Str) 7, Knowledge (Geography) (Int) 6, Knowledge (Nature) (Int) 7, Listen (Wis) 13, Move Silently (Dex) 10, Spot (Wis) 13, Survival (Wis) 23, Tumble (Dex) 5 Greater Abberant Dragonmark 1/day Cloudkill, 4/day (Shield, Touch of Idiocy)

Item Source Page
Eberron Half-Drow Wizard's Archive http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebxe/20060224a
Spiritual Totem Barbarian Complete Champion 46
Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Unearthed Arcana 66
Champion of the Wild Complete Champion 50
Heir of Khyber Wizard's Archive http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20070416a
Blessed of Vulkoor Secrets of Xen'Drik 134
Drow Skirmisher Secrets of Xen'Drik 134
Abberant Dragonmark Eberron Campaign Setting 47
Lesser Abberant Dragonmark Dragonmarked 141
Greater Abberant Dragonmark Dragonmarked 140
Skewer Foe Champions of Ruin 22
Skill Tricks Complete Scoundrel 82

Levels 1-4 lay down the foundation for what our build does. Ranger provides us with Track at first level as a bonus feat as well as the favored enemy ability. We take Giant for our favored enemy in this build for flavor, as a Vulkoori drow likely wouldn't have any enemy more hated than the giants. At second level we get Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat givng us a second attack at level 2 with a penalty. Barbarian gives us rage which functions as a 1/day nova power, but while a nice boost isnt' the main reason for multiclassing. The Spiritual Totem ACF let's us trade our increassed movement for the pounce ability. Pounce let's us perform a full attack on a charge. This is invaluable for a two weapon fighting build. The next level of barbarian provides uncanny dodge which allows for the retention of Dex to AC under most circumstances.

At level 15 we get Spring attack which allows us to tie everything together. As long as we keep within 10-15 feet of our opponent, we can continue to make charge attacks triggering Drow Skirmisher. Mobility provides protection from AoOs, and Dodge makes it harder for our target to hit us. By grabbing Weapon Finesse, we have a better chance to hit using our higher dex mod. By charging each turn we offset the penalty for dual wielding and pounce let's us make a full attack action. At level 15 that's 3 attacks plus our offhand with our highest attack bonus being +16. Assuming that each attack hits, and we're using Drow Long Knives in each hand, that's an average of 24 damage each attack. This will improve further at level 18 when we take Skewer foe, adding +1d6 to each attack with our long knives.

Our AC is likewise well built. During our attacks we have a total AC of 21 against our chosen target, assuming we use an unenchanted chain shirt. Standing we have a total AC of 18 against standard opponents. If we need an extra boost, we can trigger our Dragonmark 3/day for a +4 Shield bonus that doesn't interfere with our attacks at all.

Our real fun is our potential Nova Strike that we can use once per day to really deal some damage against our opponent. With Whirling Frenzy active, we drop to a +14 Attack Bonus, but gain a +2 to AC offsettting the penalty from charging, a +2 to damage to each attack from the strength boost, and an additional attack at our highest attack, resulting in an additional 12 damage each round that our rage lasts.

Other useful abilities are Ghost of Xen'drik which augments our abilities in the jungle making us better stalkers, and Pandin Temn which provides additional bonuses against Large enemies. Heir of Khyber is taken to augment our Dragonmark without interfering with our feat progression towards Spring Attack. This build is fully functional without the Abberant Dragonmark feat, however I feel it adds a nice dash of flavor, and combined with the ability to speak Draconic, it mitigates the need to take Native Ties with the Seren Barbarians, leaving the door open for other choices.

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:13 AM

Charlatan was banned, but someone managed this build anyway.

Kole Naerrin

And then, as the evil drow lord loomed ominously over Princess Syra, Garret swooped past on his horse and lopped the dark elf’s head off his shoulders with one stroke of his sword...

No, no, that’ll never do. That’s much too violent for the fainting lilies in the readership, and if they get upset, the Editor gets upset. Let’s see, here:

And then, as the evil drow lord loomed ominously over Princess Syra, Garret swooped past on his horse and swept her up into his saddle with a single fluid motion. Together, they rode off into the sunset, as the dark elf swore eternal vengeance.

Ah, much better; the populace will surely not object to that. And now I can keep the drow around as a recurring villain, if need be.

Most of the Thunder Guide's class features are based on their reputation for mighty deeds... but none of their features actually enable such deeds. Thus, the inspiration for my entry: The notion that the much-vaunted "Thunder Guides" are entirely the invention of the reporter who chronicles the "true stories" of their adventures. Thus, Kole Naerrin, a fast-talking, quick-witted con artist, who disguises himself as his creations to give public appearances by them, all the while ensuring their notoriety by splashing invented deeds all over the pages of the Korranberg Chronicle, and getting paid both by his editors and by the adoring public.

Kole Naerrin
Chaotic neutral changeling rogue 1/bard 4/spymaster 2/thunder guide 10/spymaster +3

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 8
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 18 + all level-ups
Initial languages: Common, Elven, Giant

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Changeling rogue 1
+0
+0
+2
+0
48: Bluff 4, Craft (writing) 4, Decipher script 4, Diplomacy 4, Disguise 4, Forgery 4, Gather information 4, Knowledge (local) 4, Perform (oratory) 4, Sense motive 4
Able Learner
Sneak attack 1d6, social intuition

2st
Bard 1
+0
+0
+4
+2
56: Bluff 5, Craft (writing) 5, Decipher script 4, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Forgery 5, Gather information 5, Knowledge (local) 4, Perform (oratory) 5, Sense motive 5

Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1

3rd
Bard 2
+1
+0
+5
+3
64: Bluff 6, Craft (writing) 6, Decipher script 4, Diplomacy 6, Disguise 6, Forgery 6, Gather information 6, Knowledge (local) 4, Perform (oratory) 6, Sense motive 6
Skill Focus: Bluff

4th
Bard 3
+2
+1
+5
+3
72: Bluff 7, Craft (writing) 7, Decipher script 4, Diplomacy 7, Disguise 7, Forgery 7, Gather information 7, Knowledge (local) 4, Perform (oratory) 7, Sense motive 7

Inspire Competence

5th
Bard 4
+3
+1
+6
+4
80: Bluff 8, Craft (writing) 8, Decipher script 4, Diplomacy 8, Disguise 8, Forgery 8, Gather information 8, Knowledge (local) 4, Perform (oratory) 8, Sense motive 8

6th
Spymaster 1
+3
+1
+8
+4
90: Bluff 9, Craft (writing) 9, Decipher script 5, Diplomacy 9, Disguise 9, Forgery 9, Gather information 9, Knowledge (local) 5, Perform (oratory) 9, Sense motive 9
Disguise Spell
cover identity (Farjest), undetectable alignment

7th
Spymaster 2
+4
+1
+9
+4
100: Bluff 10, Craft (writing) 10, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 10, Disguise 10, Forgery 10, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 10, Sense motive 10

quick change, scrying defense

8th
Thunder Guide 1
+4
+3
+9
+4
106: Bluff 11, Craft (writing) 11, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 11, Disguise 11, Forgery 11, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 11, Sense motive 10

Speak Language: Argon, cover identity Fajest replaced by Garret Halstrom

9th
Thunder Guide 2
+5
+4
+9
+4
112: Bluff 12, Craft (writing) 12, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 12, Disguise 12, Forgery 12, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 12, Sense motive 10
Practiced Spellcaster
Thunder Lore: Malenti pearl trick

10th
Thunder Guide 3
+6
+4
+9
+5
118: Bluff 13, Craft (writing) 13, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 13, Disguise 13, Forgery 13, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 13, Sense motive 10

Native Ties: Stormreach irregulars

11th
Thunder Guide 4
+7
+5
+10
+5
124: Bluff 14, Craft (writing) 14, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 14, Disguise 14, Forgery 14, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 14, Sense motive 10

Speak Language: Drow, Thunder Lore: Xen'drik Boomerang Expert

12th
Thunder Guide 5
+7
+5
+10
+5
130: Bluff 15, Craft (writing) 15, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 15, Disguise 15, Forgery 15, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 15, Sense motive 10
Obtain familiar (snake)
Lionized in the press

13th
Thunder Guide 6
+8
+6
+11
+6
136: Bluff 16, Craft (writing) 16, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 16, Disguise 16, Forgery 16, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 16, Sense motive 10

Native ties: storm giants of Xen'drik, rescue artist, thunder lore: savage of the mists

14th
Thunder Guide 7
+9
+6
+11
+6
142: Bluff 17, Craft (writing) 17, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 17, Disguise 17, Forgery 17, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 17, Sense motive 10

Speak language: Draconic

15th
Thunder Guide 8
+10
+7
+11
+6
148: Bluff 18, Craft (writing) 18, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 18, Disguise 18, Forgery 18, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 18, Sense motive 10
Deceitful
Serial hero, thunder lore: dragonsong

16th
Thunder Guide 9
+10
+7
+12
+7
154: Bluff 19, Craft (writing) 19, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 19, Disguise 19, Forgery 19, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 19, Sense motive 10

Native ties: Elves of Pylas Talaear

17th
Thunder Guide 10
+11
+8
+12
+7
160: Bluff 20, Craft (writing) 20, Decipher script 6, Diplomacy 20, Disguise 20, Forgery 20, Gather information 10, Knowledge (local) 6, Perform (oratory) 20, Sense motive 10

Society peer, speak language: Sahaguin, thunder lore: breath of Shargon

18th
Spymaster 3
+12
+9
+12
+7
170: Bluff 21, Craft (writing) 21, Decipher script 7, Diplomacy 21, Disguise 21, Forgery 21, Gather information 11, Knowledge (local) 7, Perform (oratory) 21, Sense motive 11
Negotiator
Magic aura, sneak attack +1d6

19th
Spymaster 4
+13
+9
+13
+7
180: Bluff 22, Craft (writing) 22, Decipher script 8, Diplomacy 22, Disguise 22, Forgery 22, Gather information 12, Knowledge (local) 8, Perform (oratory) 22, Sense motive 12

Cover identity (Thrush Xivdrad), slippery mind

20th
Spymaster 5
+13
+9
+13
+7
190: Bluff 23, Craft (writing) 23, Decipher script 9, Diplomacy 23, Disguise 23, Forgery 23, Gather information 13, Knowledge (local) 9, Perform (oratory) 23, Sense motive 13

Dispel scrying

Bard spells known:
0: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Lullaby, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
1: Alibi, Scholar's Touch, Serene Visage
2: Suggestion, False Lie

At first level, Kole Naerrin begins a promising career as a journalist by disguising himself as a warforged to investigate indentured servitude in Thrane. When the resulting story sells, he decides to further develop his skills at disguise, relating to others, and writing, to try for further success.

By fifth level, Kole has found that those who recognize his name often ask him to re-create the warforged disguise he used for his first story. He sees an opportunity in this, and decides to create a heroic character from scratch, and to develop this new character to the point where he can convincingly make public appearances as that character.

By seventh level, it becomes apparent to Kole that his first attempt at creating a hero from whole cloth, Farjest, lacks credibility, and hence is profiting him nothing. He proceeds to establish a false expedition to the Byeshk Mountains, under the supposed sponsorship of the noble Sarnap. Through assorted disguises and use of the Alibi spell, he gives the impression of great preparations for this expedition, which includes both himself and "Farjest". Any witnesses who suspect his sham is subjected to a False Lie spell, to ensure that none will credit their claims. When he returns as the expedition's sole survivor (as the only real person to actually set out on it), there is none to question his story, and so Farjest's career is effectively ended. From this point, Kole realizes that to make any further characters plausible, he must himself set out on a facsimile of their adventures.

As of thirteenth level, Kole's storytelling has impressed both the street urchins of Stormreach and the giants of Xen'drik enough that they both help him with his researches. His new character of Garret Halstrom is thriving, to the point where his public appearances as Garret can earn as much as 200 GP each, and he sometimes supplements his speeches with displays of his skill with the Xen'drik boomerang. He has also learned the trick of vanishing into mist, for the increasingly-rare occasion that his performances are not well-received.

At 15th level, Kole's big score comes: His editors agree to pay him 5000 GP for a thirteen-part serial on Garret's adventures.

By 20th level, Kole is living a life of luxury, with free travel throughout the Thunder Seas region, and free accommodations in Pylas Talaear. He has by this time created a second major character, a nemesis for Garret Halstrom named Thrush Xivdrad, and is making profitable public appearances as each of them. His fame extends even beneath the waves, and he has given brief displays of his characters (up to 8 minutes) to the sahaguins of Shargon.

His total bonuses to key skills at this level are Bluff +42, Disguise +46, Forgery +27, Perform (oratory) +29, even before any items, and he can take 10 on Bluff even under stress.

Explorer's Handbook (Thunder Guide, character names and backgrounds)
Eberron Campaign Setting (Changeling)
Races of Eberron (Changeling Rogue racial substitution level)
Core (Bard, Skill Focus, Deceitful, Negotiator)
Complete Adventurer (Spymaster, Disguise Spell)
Races of Destiny (Able Learner, Scholar's Touch; note adaptation section in Chameleon for changelings to take Able Learner)
Exemplars of Evil (Alibi)
Spell Compendium (Serene Visage)
Complete Arcane (Practiced Spellcaster, Obtain Familiar)
Complete Mage (False Lie)

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:18 AM

Come one, come all!
Welcome to the world's greatest entertainment since the fall of the giants!
Life, death, victims, voyeurs, the best of society, the lowest of plebeians!
And to keep it all extremely interesting, today's patrons could very easily be tomorrow's entertainment!

The Speaker

http://www.worstcartoonsever.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/satan-mask-291x300.jpg

The funny thing is, you can’t even remember how you got this ticket in the first place. Probably one of those inserts in the paper, although it’s hard to figure whether it was the Chronicle or the Ledger.

All you know is you have a Saturday night with no particular plans. Besides, you’d always meant to go see one of these lectures at the university. You always just kept putting it off for one reason or another.

It’s only a short journey away by lightning rail, you realize, once you’re there and you hardly notice you’ve left. You really should do this more often. After all, it’s not exactly like the tickets to these things were expensive. The speakers must have either made it up in bulk, although that hardly seems likely since while they draw a respectable crowd, it’s not enough to draw them from their adventures on its own.

Perhaps the university pays them a stipend? It’s at once the question you want to ask most once you settle into your seat in the mostly full lecture hall, and it’s also the question you know you won’t dare raise.

The speaker du jour is introduced under some nom de plume, although considering the places he’s been, nom de guerre might be more appropriate. It’s the kind of clever thing you want to congratulate yourself for but know there’s no point in sharing with anyone, who’d want to hear it? The speaker’s name is marred with quite a few apostrophes and it’s hard not to feel bad for the professor introducing him.

While you’re considering how he must’ve prepared, the speaker swings down from the rafters right onto the stage to a greeting of applause. He actually slid down a vine. It doesn’t look familiar. He must’ve brought it along with him from the deepest darkest just for this purpose. You’re giddy with the thought of such extravagance, even secondhand.

The speaker draws a sheet off a rectangular glass case about your size with a dramatic flourish. Within is some scaled creature, a sauhaugin, the speaker says. From far further than anyone in your social circles has traveled.

He perished of quite natural causes, the speaker says, although the same isn’t the case for the next brute he unveils, one of the inhabitants of the jungles, or what remains of it anyway. The next case is just as large, but within is merely a single hand from something so huge as to be positively prehistoric. To think only a few thousand miles separates you from this place.

The rest of the lecture passes quickly. Not because you’re not paying attention, quite the opposite in fact. The speaker’s rhythm is so perfect, flow so captivating, it’s almost like music. You can’t recall the last time you had as good a time at a proper symphony, as a matter of fact.

And then it happens.

Of all the faces in the crowd, of all the actual regulars, professors, scholars, reporters and various hangers-on, you see his eyes meet yours.

You couldn’t say how you knew, exactly, only that you did, and that you hoped you weren’t wrong.

After some demonstration of trick boomerang throwing met with raucous applause once the anthropological portion of the lecture had concluded, people began to drift from the crowd in twos and threes, in tens and twenties. But you stayed where you were. When the show ended, the speaker gestured to you, ever so slightly with his hand. There was something else to be displayed, something not for the prying eyes of the public.

Once polite goodbyes are exchanged between the speaker and his hosts, he approaches you, right in your seat, saying he doesn’t recognize you. You tell him this is your first show and it won’t be the last.

He asks if you’d like to see something he’s preparing for his next lecture. You don’t know how to say no, so you don’t and are backstage in a trice. Just you and him amongst his effects. Shark’s teeth as long as your arm. A menagerie of insects you’ve never even seen before in amber. Many things in between.

Finally he comes to what he wants to show you next. You’re a bit let down when you see beneath its sheet, so clean and white, that it’s just another glass display box, much like the ones that held the monsters he showed you earlier. He informs you that it’s best seen from the inside and you oblige, not seeing the harm in it. After all, someone must’ve seen you go in with him.

Once you take your first step inside, you feel the pinprick on the back of your neck. There’s just enough time for you to turn, the speaker’s mouth shut tight around some savage blowgun, the feathered dart already having found its mark in your flesh.

You know precisely what’s happening as the exotic jungle venom swims through your veins, your blood turning to ice in your veins.

He says his next tour will be quite the event. After all, his next audience has never seen someone from Breland before.

The last thing you wonder is how he’ll manage to pull it off. You’re lucky enough to get an answer before your eyes close for the last time and you see the speaker’s face melt and shift until it’s like looking in a mirror even though the door remains open.

If you asked anyone you knew the next day whether they saw you leave the theater last night, they’d swear they did.

They always do.
10/12/14/18/10/10 increases to int

starting languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Gnome

NE changeling rogue3/warblade 2/thunder guide 10/cabinet trickster 5

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Changeling Rogue 1
+0
+0
+2
+0
balance 4, bluff 4, diplo 4, disguise 4, escape artist 4, hide 4, jump 4, know (local) 4, know (nobility/royalty) 4, move silently 4, sm 4, tumble 4, umd 4, use rope 4
persona immersion
Sneak attack +1d6, social intuition

2nd
Rogue 2
+1
+0
+3
+0
balance 1 (5), bluff 1 (5), diplo 1 (5), disguise 1 (5), escape artist 1 (5), hide 1 (5), jump 1 (5), know (local) 1 (5), know (nobility/royalty) 1 (5), move silently 1 (5), sm 1 (5), tumble 1 (5), umd 1 (5), use rope 1 (5)

evasion

3rd
Warblade 1
+2
+2
+3
+0
concentration 6, diplo 1 (6), tumble 1 (6),
ironheart aura
battle clarity (ref saves), weapon aptitude

4th
Warblade 2
+3
+3
+3
+0
balance 2 (7), concentration 1 (7), disguise 2 (6), diplo 1 (7), know (local) 1 (6), tumble 1 (7)

Uncanny dodge

5th
Warblade 3
+4
+3
+4
+1
concentration 1 (8) disguise 2 (7), diplo 1 (8), jump 1 (6), know local 2 (8), tumble 1 (8)

Battle ardor (critical confirmation)

6th
Thunder Guide 1
+4
+5
+4
+1
bluff 4 (9), diplo 1 (9), survival 3
ms: emerald razor
Speak language: Undercommon

7th
Thunder Guide 2
+5
+6
+4
+1
bluff 1 (10), diplo 1 (10), survival 4 (7), tumble 2 (10)

thunder lore:xen’drik boomerang expert

8th
Thunder Guide 3
+6/+1
+6
+5
+2
bluff 1 (11), diplo 1 (11), sm 2 (7), survival 4 (11), tumble 1 (11)

Native ties: stormreach irregulars

9th
Thunder Guide 4
+7+2
+7
+5
+2
bluff 1 (12), diplo 1 (12), sm 5 (12), survival 1 (12), tumble 1 (12)
boomerang daze
Speak language: sahuagin, thunder lore: vicious barbarism

10th
Thunder Guide 5
+7/+2
+7
+5
+2
bluff 1 (13), diplo 1 (13), know geography 4, sm 1 (13), survival 1 (13), tumble 1 (13)

Lionized in the press

11th
Thunder Guide 6
+8/+3
+8
+6
+3
bluff 1 (14), diplo 1 (14), know geography 4 (8), sm 1 (14), survival 1 (14), tumble 1 (14)

Native ties: storm giants of xen’drik, rescue artist, thunder lore: seren hide

12th
Thunder Guide 7
+9/+4
+8
+6
+3
bluff 1 (15), diplo 1 (15), know geography 4 (12), sm 1 (15), survival 1 (15), tumble 1 (15)
stormguard warrior
Speak language: drow

13th
Thunder Guide 8
+10/+5
+9
+6
+3
bluff 1 (16), diplo 1 (16), know geography 4 (16), sm 1 (16), survival 1 (16), tumble 1 (16)

Serial hero, thunder lore: breath of shargon

14th
Thunder Guide 9
+10/+5
+9
+7
+4
bluff 1 (17), diplo 1 (17), know geography 1(17), sm 1 (17), survival 1 (17), tumble 1 (17), swim 3

Native ties: sauhaugin of shargon's teeth

15th
Thunder Guide 10
+11/+6/+1
+10
+7
+4
bluff 1 (18), disguise 4 (9), diplo 1 (18), know geography 1(18), sm 1 (18), tumble 1 (18)
ms: sudden counter
Society peer, speak language: giant, thunder lore: ghosts of xen’drik

16th
Cabinet Trickster 1
+11/+6/+1
+ 10
+9
+6
bluff 1 (19), disguise 9 (18), sm 1 (19)

Detect thoughts 2/day, doppelganger insights

17th
Cabinet Trickster 2
+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+7
bluff 1 (20), disguise 2 (20), gather info 7, sm 1 (20)

Thought trick (daze), bonus feat (racial emulation)

18th
Cabinet Trickster 3
+13/+8/+3
+11
+10
+7
bluff 1 (21), disguise 1 (21), gather info 8 (15), sm 1 (21)
quick change
Detect thoughts 4/day, thought trick (disrupt)

19th
Cabinet Trickster 4
+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+8
bluff 1 (22), disguise 1 (22), gather info 7 (22), perform oratory 1, sm 1 (22)

Thought trick (confuse), bonus feat (disturbing visage)

20th
Cabinet Trickster 5
+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+8
bluff 1 (23), disguise 1 (23), gather info 1 (23), perform oratory 7 (8), sm 1 (22)

Change shape, detect thoughts at will, thought trick (stun)

warblade 1: moment perfect mind (diamond) , douse the flames (raven), steel wind (iron)
warblade 2: steely strike (iron)
warblade 3: wall of blades (iron)

You play as a somewhat straightforward skulk here. Warblade will give you a little extra beef, so don’t be afraid to go on the offensive. Keep an eye on your weapon aptitude for later. the SI really helps you get your money’s worth

you’re in the SI! congratulations. you’ve got a couple abilities already. due to the structure of the class, you’re gonna pick your favorites and work your way down the food chain.

your training in xen’drik has introduced you to the boomerang and lets you get more punch out of it than normal. boomerang daze lets you daze enemies with a pretty respectable save. weapon aptitude lets you chuck whatever you feel like as long as you have an hour to kill, so enjoy your proficiency with martials and kick some tail. vicious barbarism will help seal the deal when you’ve got your enemies on the ropes.

your bond with the stormreach irregulars helps you gallivant more quickly around the city, so make use of it when you’re in town. your numbers are good enough to back you up.

stormguard warrior bolsters your damage, so save your aoos to boost your numbers in subsequent rounds.

sudden counter lets you attack and still save aoos to power stormguard warrior. you’ve reached the end of the secret ingredient and have gotten everything it has to offer. you can now skulk around more efficiently, hold your breath, and parlay with giants and sahuagin. combat will look largely the same. your skills have quietly grown, making you primed for the final step in your evolution.

now for the spice I added to really make this secret ingredient pop: cabinet trickster. thunder guide is all about exposing yourself to a wide variety of different peoples all across the land. cabinet trickster lets you synthesize all those experiences and really make them work for you.

it gives two fantastic bonus feats (in this instance, racial emulation and disturbing visage) to make your shape changing more potent.

your doppelganger powers allow you to read minds and even quietly alter them to suit your ends.

dazing, disrupting, confusing, and even stunning are in your repertoire, so use them wisely.

the real gem comes as the capstone. you gain the change shape ability. you no longer just look like the people who you’ve been hanging out with, you can truly become them.

mechanically this means you get their size, nat weapons, movement modes (swim! burrow! fly!), and ex special attacks. you can stay this way indefinitely and it can’t be dispelled.

quick change even lets you use it as a move.

disappear into the crowd wherever you are and don’t come out again til you’re good and ready.

roe: persona immersion, cabinet trickster, changeling rogue, boomerang daze, quick change
srd: rogue
tob: warblade, iron heart aura, martial study, storm guard warrior
cityscape web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) skilled city dweller

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:23 AM

A Thunder Guide that actually earned their reputation? Whatever next!

Azrael

LG Human Marshal 3/Paladin 2/Thunder Guide 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Thunder Guide 10/Exemplar 4

Stats
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 15 (increases here)
Build

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Marshal 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (local) 4, Listen 4, Perform (oratory) 4, Spot 4, Survival 4, Tumble 4 (Bonus Language: Drow)
Nymph’s Kiss, Power Attack, (B)Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Minor Aura (Motivate Charisma)

2nd
Marshal 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Diplomacy 5, Knowledge (arcana) 1, Knowledge (local) 5, Listen 5, Spot 5, Survival 5, Tumble 5

Major Aura +1 (Steady Hand)

3rd
Marshal 3
+2
+3
+1
+3
Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1, Knowledge (nature) 1, Listen 6, Spot 6, Survival 6, Tumble 6
Brutal Throw
Minor Aura (Motivate Dexterity)

4th
Paladin 1
+3
+5
+1
+3
Diplomacy 7, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 3, Tumble 7

Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day

5th
Paladin 2
+4
+6
+1
+3
Diplomacy 8, Heal 1, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 5, Tumble 8

Divine Grace, Lay on Hands

6th
Thunder Guide 1
+4
+8
+1
+3
Craft (Weaponsmithing) 3, Diplomacy 9, Survival 9
Power Throw
Speak Language (Sahuagin)

7th
Thunder Guide 2
+5
+9
+1
+3
Diplomacy 10, Spot 10, Survival 10, Tumble 9
(B)Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Xen’drik Boomerang)
Thunder Lore (Xen’drik Boomerang Expert)

8th
Thunder Guide 3
+6/+1
+9
+2
+4
Diplomacy 11, Jump 2, Spot 11, Survival 11, Tumble 11

Native Ties (Sahuagin of Shargon’s Teeth)

9th
Thunder Guide 4
+7/+2
+10
+2
+4
Diplomacy 12, Jump 5, Spot 12, Survival 12, Tumble 12
Weapon Focus (Xen’drik Boomerang)
Speak Language (Giant), Thunder Lore (Seren Hide)

10th
Exotic Weapon Master 1
+8/+3
+12
+2
+4
Intimidate 5

Close-Quarters Ranged Combat

11th
Thunder Guide 5
+8/+3
+12
+2
+4
Diplomacy 14, Spot 13, Survival 14, Tumble 14

Lionized in the Press

12th
Thunder Guide 6
+9/+4
+13
+3
+5
Bluff 2, Diplomacy 15, Spot 15, Survival 15, Tumble 15
Boomerang Daze
Rescue Artist, Thunder Lore (Vicious Barbarism), Native Ties (Storm Giants of Xendrik)

13th
Thunder Guide 7
+10/+5
+13
+3
+5
Bluff 5, Diplomacy 16, Spot 16, Survival 16, Tumble 16

Speak Language (Draconic)

14th
Thunder Guide 8
+11/+6/+1
+14
+3
+5
Diplomacy 17, Sense Motive 3, Spot 17, Survival 17, Tumble 17

Serial Hero, Thunder Lore (Eye of the Chamber)

15th
Thunder Guide 9
+11/+6/+1
+14
+3
+5
Diplomacy 18, Sense Motive 6, Spot 18, Survival 18, Tumble 18
Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
Native Ties (Drow of Xen’drik)

16th
Thunder Guide 10
+12/+7/+2
+15
+3
+5
Diplomacy 19, Sense Motive 9, Spot 19, Survival 19, Tumble 19

Society Peer, Speak Language (Argon), Thunder Lore (Breath of Shargon)

17th
Exemplar 1
+12/+7/+2
+15
+3
+7
Diplomacy 20, Listen 13, Spot 20, Survival 20, Tumble 20

Skill Artistry (Tumble), Skill Mastery (Survival, Spot)

18th
Exemplar 2
+13/+8/+5
+15
+3
+8
Diplomacy 21, Listen 21, Spot 21, Survival 21
Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
Lend Talent, Skill Mastery (Listen)

19th
Exemplar 3
+14/+9/+4
+16
+4
+8
Autohypnosis 7, Diplomacy 22, Listen 22, Spot 22, Survival 22
(B)Track
Bonus Feat (Track), Skill Mastery (Diplomacy)

20th
Exemplar 4
+15/+10/+5
+16
+4
+9
Autohypnosis 14, Diplomacy 23, Listen 23, Spot 23, Survival 23

Skill Artistry (Spot), Sustaining Presence, Skill Mastery (Tumble)

Backstory
Azrael had an uneventful childhood in Khorvaire, and he always found the city boring. He always wanted to explore somewhere untamed, somewhere not planned out to routine and paved and built over. When the war began he leapt at the opportunity to get out of his dead-end hometown. He kept his head down during basic and proved himself on the battlefield, until eventually they trusted him enough to give him a squad of men to command. They lost some, they won some, and through it all kept together. Azrael began to grow in esteem, though he was only a war hero by his hometown’s standards. When the war was drawing to a close they began swapping stories of what they would do when they got back home. Azrael noticed that half of his men, like him, had no good answer.

Eventually the end did come, and his squad was discharged from service. As they were leaving the camp, one of his soldiers asked where he was going. On the spur of the moment, Azrael said he was going to blow his pension on a ship and go exploring. At this the man’s eyes lit up. He asked if Azrael was planning this as a solo mission, clearly still thinking in the military mind. Azrael was surprised, and so said the first thing that came to mind, which was “It doesn’t have to be.” By this point a small number of men had gathered around the discussion, and several more voices asked if they could come along.

“What could there be out there on the ocean for you lot? You’re infantrymen, not sailors.”

“There’d be a good commander who treats us right, sir, and that’s a hell of a lot more than we’ve got waiting back home.”

Azrael couldn’t think of any reason to argue with them further (after all it wasn’t as if he had much experience at sea) and so he told them to meet up at a nearby tavern after he had found them a ship.

The first few weeks were slow, mostly spent getting sea legs and figuring out how to work their ship. They had hired a few experienced hands to make sure they didn’t sink the thing, but they were eager to learn to do everything themselves. Azrael eventually learned how to steer the thing comfortably, and bought himself a garish tricorn to celebrate, feather and all.

After a while the crew realized pensions wouldn’t cut it, and saw what work they could find. They soon learned the only job a small ship with men-at-arms could get was escorting merchants. They would most likely avoid any actual fighting, since the presence of armed men was usually enough to deter raiders. Not the most glamorous job, but the merchants were heading to Xen’drik, which was exotic enough to satisfy their lust for adventure.

The journey there was long, uneventful, and mostly uninteresting, but Azrael and the crew had anticipation making every day shorter. Once they reached Xen’drik they had a few days shore leave while the merchants did their business, half guarding the goods, half exploring the wilderness. It was everything Azrael had dreamed of as a child. The exotic jungles, the foods, the people. All of it was wonderful, and he was sad to leave when business was concluded. The way back was not so uneventful.

Not long after they set sail, they were attacked by Sahuagin raiders. Their cargo wasn’t particularly desirable, they had just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. The merchants were petrified; they had heard the tales of Sahuagin ferocity. Fate seemed to smile on them that day, because the raiders decided to board the ship with Azrael’s men first. It was clearly a batch of young ones trying to prove themselves, and they were expecting scared traders, not a squad of trained men. Azrael’s commanding skills hadn’t rusted in the sea air, and neither had his soldiers’ blades. Their injuries were light, and the raiders fled once they realized it wouldn’t be an easy fight.

When they made port again, the merchants were ecstatic. They had clearly seen little of battle, and were impressed with the skill of Azrael’s squad. It must have been a slow news day, because the next morning papers read “Heroes Repel Sahuagin Savages!” Azrael would have laughed, if he hadn’t been interrupted by messages from four different ships asking for his squad to provide security detail, and another from the paper asking for an interview.

This first job set a pattern that would last for years. Jobs flowed in, and he was able to pick those that would take him to the most exotic locales. Just as the papers back home had told of his fight, so the scared raiders had told their clan of a team of veteran human fighters, led by a captain in outlandish dress with a voice that carried over the ocean. The next time raiders struck his ship, they were cautious to be fighting the man they knew had beaten their kind. Azrael smelled their weakness and rebuffed them with a strong defensive front. This cemented his reputation as a skilled commander in the eyes of the traders. The superstitious lot of sailors began to view him as a good luck charm, and took him with them to the most dangerous places.

Azrael got to see places he had only heard tall tales of, and he eventually gained enough money to explore independently. He went into the wilds and came back with exotic weapons, foods, and stories of the people. His good relation with the papers came in handy, and whenever he returned he would relay his tales. He knew how to play the press. He punched up his stories a bit with exciting details, spent time cultivating an outfit he knew would look good in pictures, learned to use the most impressive looking weapon he could find (even though he always thought it looked a bit like a starfish).

As years passed, things only got better. Money kept pouring in, and he began to make real relationships with the cultures he would now visit frequently. But he knew he had truly arrived when at a remote island and the barbarian chieftan greeted him with the simple line of “I have heard your legends.”
Level 5
Marshal’s a good mix of skill fighting that will provide a stable base we build on. Paladin brings up the BA, and Lay on Hands will always be appreciated. Divine Grace means you’re good on defenses, Motivate Dex means you have a good chance of going first, and Motivate Cha makes social environments a breeze. Power Attack is your main source of damage here, and Brutal Throw means you can begin using thrown weapons if you want, and Steady Hand will help on that front, but don’t feel pressured. Nymph’s Kiss adds on to defense and gives more skill points, which are never wasted. Skilled City Dweller trades Ride for Tumble, which is used extensively (and made better by motivate Dex).
Level 10
Now with some levels in the SI, the focus of this build comes forth. Yes it’s the Xend’rik Boomerang (and totally not the glaive from Krull). It’s a thrown weapon with a range of 30 (from the SI’s help), and you don’t have to worry about the silly attack to catch. Exotic Weapon Master means you don’t provoke AoOs for using it, so I’d begin to use it quite heavily. Keep some spiked armor/gauntlets so you still threaten around you, but begin chucking the thing at everything. Power Throw is what it sounds like, Power Attack for thrown weapons, so you can now switch over completely to it instead of melee combat (and Steady Hand offsets the penalty). You don’t even need more than a few, since they auto-come back now. Natural armor never hurt anybody, it might even save you.

You have a lot of diplo bonuses stacked up, so that DC 20 for the Sahuagin isn’t as hard as it seems.
Level 15
Now we’re getting wild and crazy. Boomerang Daze requires an enemy make a fort save of DC (10+damage dealt) or be dazed for 1 round. Daze is punishing, and with a DC based on damage it’s in your interest to crank it up, which is what Power Throw is for. This is going to happen a lot. Shadow Jaunt is great for when you need to get into position, but there’s no easy path to get there, both in and out of combat.

You can automatically succeed on the check for Lionized in the Press to get paid. Spending money is nothing to sneeze at. Eye of the Chamber is another bonus to hit to offset Power attack, and 1 round is a cheap investment. Savage Barbarism is another reason to keep something like spiked armor on hand, since it functions like a mini-CDG but without spending a full round action. The giant research is useful when you’re trying to find something in particular, and the Drow are good for resupply. Their Diplo is also easy to make. I’m not going to pretend like Serial Hero does anything but give you 4,000 gp.
Level 20
Breath of Shargon is useful if you ever have to bail out on your ship and swim to shore. A minute is a long time.

Now we enter Exemplar, the fun fluffy part of the build! Any swashbuckling serial hero needs to be good at a lot of things, and that’s just what exemplar does. Skill Masteries mean you can take 10 at any time, and these are skills you will be using a lot. Lend talent lets you aid allies in Tumble or Spot, and with your large modifier it can help even those who tossed a rank into it. Sustaining Presence means cha to fort saves (plus the cha from divine grace, and con of course) for a total modifier of +28, which is comfortably high. Even poison’s not looking so scary, and any adventurer worth his salt can shrug off poison.

The other notable bounty is a free feat, which I’ve used on Track (which is what all those Survival ranks are for). Any jungle explorer needs to be able to track his quarry, and with your mod you will likely be able to hunt them down and boomerang them into next week.
Assassin’s stance means more damage, and with all the damage piling on Boomerang Daze, it may easily be a case of strike first, strike last.
Sources
Marshal: Heroes of Battle
Exemplar, Brutal Throw, Power Throw: Complete Adventurer
Exotic Weapon Master: Complete Warrior
Martial Study: Tome of Battle
Boomerang Daze: Races of Eberron
Nymph’s Kiss: Book of Exalted Deeds
Paladin, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Skill Focus, Track: srd

Heliomance

2015-02-08, 06:24 AM

That's the lot! Get judging, folks!

Sian

2015-02-08, 06:49 AM

The idea i played around with was some variant of Warforged Scout Urban Druid 4 / Martial Rogue 2 / Reforged 3 / Thunder Guide 10 / Exemplar 1, based out of Sharn and secondarily Stromreach (gaining wis-mod for a number of cha checks in those cities), attempting to gain resources and support for establishing a nation (swearing vassalage to Breland) for the Warforged somewhere in Northern Xen'drik, and trying to figure out a way to make warforged able to recreate. (Incarnate construct maybe?), but really it was more the story that ran that one than Thunder Guide.

Amphetryon

2015-02-08, 07:02 AM

I looked at Half-Fey Crusader 4/Thunder Guide 10/Jaunter 4, but it did nothing I couldn't do without the SI.

Chronos

2015-02-08, 08:14 AM

Funny how we doubled our number of entrants in, what, the last 12 hours of the contest?

kaffalidjmah

2015-02-08, 11:11 AM

Started judging. I am taking my time for reading everything, i think next sunday i will post the final vote. I preread some background and are really cool, great job from everyone. I smell something seriously nice here

Deadline

2015-02-08, 12:23 PM

Had an idea for this. Coriander Kincaid, halfling chef and adventurer of house Ghallanda. Travels the lands surrounding the Thunder Sea searching out ancient recipes. Marshal 2/Crusader 3/SI 10/Exemplar 5. No time to cook though.

Deadasadoor

2015-02-08, 01:38 PM

Congrats to those who managed to get a build in in and best of luck to you all. My idea was a gross mishmash of 1 bard/5 warblade/10 thunder guide/4 bloodstorm blade focusing on using Xen'Drik boomerangs to full attack and daze on hit with boomerang daze, but it didn't fit together as well as I wanted it to. I could have just gone 10 warblade/10 thunder guide to focus purely on white raven... but that was a fairly boring build. A 1 bard/9 bardblade was also something I kicked around, but lacked levels on both sides to do anything worthwhile. I would definitely like to play a boomerang focused BSB at some point though.

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-08, 02:17 PM

been cooking for 7 an a half hours. my eyes are bleeding.

truly we are blessed to have such a secret ingredient

http://s.quickmeme.com/img/f8/f88ed5baefd38f9755b527426587e942406f1cc8e880255b21 651cf519c999b3.jpg

On other notes, it seems like originality should score decently well this round. There are two of each race presented, Human, Half-Drow, and Changeling. But, outside of two rogues, it doesn't seem that anyone duplicated classes.

Thurbane

2015-02-08, 03:04 PM

WhamBamSam

2015-02-08, 03:23 PM

Looks like most of my thoughts on this SI ended up being used. I considered a sort of "Sword Hunter" type based around shuffling the EWP (Xendrik Boomerang) around with Weapon Aptitude, and Boomerang Daze stuff, and the components of both showed up (though it looks like The Speaker is Weapon Aptitude-ing Boomerang Daze rather than the proficiency itself).

I also thought about trying to optimize Rescue Artist with some manner of Dvati build, but just couldn't be bothered, especially as flight makes it so irrelevant by the level you get it anyway.

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-08, 03:40 PM

The build i couldn't get working was a Kalashtar Soulknife x/ Barbarian x/ Thunderguide x. Kept having to pull out levels of TG to optimize the others leaving the question of why even bother.

Venger

2015-02-08, 03:42 PM

The build i couldn't get working was a Kalashtar Soulknife x/ Barbarian x/ Thunderguide x. Kept having to pull out levels of TG to optimize the others leaving the question of why even bother.

That seems to be thunder guide in 5 seconds, doesn't it?

"I tried to do thing, but then realized that thunder guide was in no way helping me, so decided to cut some. I finished my idea and realized it had no thunder guide in it, so I elected not to send it in."

I'd had an idea about doing something with zhentarim spy, but ultimately decided against it. It managed to overshadow the secret ingredient, which made me weep with dissatisfaction.

The Viscount

2015-02-08, 03:59 PM

Congrats to everyone who submitted a build for what, IMHO, may just be the worst/hardest IC ingredient so far.

If I'd gotten a build in, it was going to be either a joke build: Commoner/Survivor/Monk X/Thunder Guide 10...

...or if I was trying to be serious, a ToB based build that focused on stunning people with boomerangs.

I can certainly understand that. This is quite bad, though personally I'd say worst/hardest IC is between acolyte of the ego, initiate of pistis sophia, and cipher adept. None is easy to enter (literally 3 restrictive ways for initiate) and none of them does much of anything. I made rather a joke build with cipher adept using fixer, and it worked out. Then again, I made a joke build for Shadow Blade, and that didn't. Joke builds are hard.

Chronos

2015-02-08, 07:41 PM

Venger

2015-02-08, 07:44 PM

Y'know, there's a part of me that wants to look through the other entries to see how they managed it... but then, there's a part of me that never wants to have anything to do with this again. I expect that's probably typical of Iron Chef, though.

I know that game. There's only 5 other dishes, so you can look 'em over pretty quickly. I know before, I had a much more romantic idea about thunder guide than after actually trying to cook one.

arkangel111

2015-02-09, 12:11 AM

I had a dish cooking but finals got in the way. It wasn't fully hashed out but it was Warforged Warblade X/TG 10/Bloodstorm blade 4 or 5. BSB 5 was effectively a dead level so was WB 6 so I was trying to figure out how to fill the dead level. Basically he was gonna be a C3PO with combat ability. I was planning on having a lot of languages and his main role being a diplomatic translater. using BSB and boomerang stun he was gonna be quite nice but again, finals got in the way.

things look interesting I'll have to fully read things when my finals are turned in good luck to all and hopefully I'll be able to help with judging but no guarantees.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-09, 09:45 AM

I tinkered around with a few, but here were the standouts:
A Ranger 4/Thunder Guide 10/Prime Underdark Guide 6, using the bonus languages of TG to qualify for PUG with the idea that the gal could function as the ultimate tour guide in any world. Abandoned due to cross-setting funkiness.
A Thunder Guide/Royal Explorer using his skill mastery for all the "Thunder Guidey" skills. However, I thought a 3.0 PrC with the old skills would be frowned upon. So I settled in for a long winter's nap on...
A swashbuckler 4/Thunder Guide 9/Elemental Scion of Zilargo 7--basically a pirate lass who chose all of the aquatic class features of the SI, grafted some water elementals to herself, and ended her career by literally becoming one with the seas. But I didn't know why she'd ever bother with Thunder Guide in the first place.
All that goes to say, I might be tempted to judge...

Y'know, there's a part of me that wants to look through the other entries to see how they managed it... but then, there's a part of me that never wants to have anything to do with this again. I expect that's probably typical of Iron Chef, though.
Welcome to the jungle. :smallamused:

Nettlekid

2015-02-09, 01:09 PM

Zaq

2015-02-09, 01:27 PM

Hmmm. Judging this is going to take some thought, definitely. I saw a few things I didn't expect, a few things I very much did expect (including one major problem that I knew we'd have people fall into), and a few things that I could go either way with.

I'm still in the "preliminary notes" phase of judging. So maybe like 5% done, though that's the squishiest number ever. I may end up being "the mean judge," as I'm immediately seeing a lot more problems than I am things that really impress me, but I've got a lot of work to do before I'm done, so who knows where my scores will end up.

To Noamuth and Kole, though, let me say on behalf of judges everywhere: next time, please do something to visually distinguish new skill points from old skill points. Checking the skill points on those two entries is giving me a headache and a half. Please don't do that again.

sakuuya

2015-02-09, 01:34 PM

Despite being a big fan this is the first time I've posted on one of the Iron Chef threads, just to say that the idea behind that fourth character entry there is absolutely hilarious. That's just a genius way to approach a class with such a unique class feature as the Thunder Guide.

I didn't manage to submit my build, but it was super, super close to that one: A changeling Bard 6/Thunder Guide 10/Chameleon 2/Master of Masks 2, who also happened to be named Kole Naerrin. The main difference was that instead of making up all the Thunder Guides, he was cursed to write about them.

You're welcome for me not submitting, whoever's build that is! :smalltongue:

Chronos

2015-02-09, 06:57 PM

Venger

2015-02-09, 07:03 PM

And now that I've read through the other five builds, I'd really like to comment on them, except now I have to wait for the judging. :smallfrown:

A strange game... The only winning move is not to play.

we'll just have to wait til the reveal to judge one another. I think I know which one's yours. We'll see when the time comes.

Zaq

2015-02-11, 01:16 PM

Update: 1/6 complete, and I've got at least a preliminary paragraph or two for each of the remaining 5. If all goes well, I'll finish one more today, though I've got several other things that also command my attention today, which I won't get into (this isn't Facebook; you don't care about the details of my life, I hope).

I will say that the one I finished did not do well. I don't necessarily judge them in the order they were presented, though, so the fact that I finished it doesn't indicate which one it was. But it did not do well.

Venger

2015-02-11, 01:22 PM

sideswipe

2015-02-11, 01:30 PM

ahhh internet is back, i really want to say things but i can't give away which is mine. but well done to the rest of the competitors.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-11, 08:02 PM

"the mean judge,"

http://i.imgur.com/ZUzfh.jpg

To Noamuth and Kole, though, let me say on behalf of judges everywhere: next time, please do something to visually distinguish new skill points from old skill points. Checking the skill points on those two entries is giving me a headache and a half. Please don't do that again.

Seconded. Little things like that help to avoid added disputes about skill point misallocation or a judge's eyes getting all glassy from staring at skill points. In other news, I am 0% done but what else is new?

EDIT: While I'm here...

Lord Al'ayn Q'tarmayn: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18787004&postcount=124) Half-Drow Scout 5/Fighter 1/Thunder Guide 10/Dread Commando 4
Lord Professor Hexler: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18787005&postcount=125) Human Monk 2/Factotum 8/Thunder Guide 10
Lord Noamuth: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18787013&postcount=126) Half-Drow Barbarian 2/Ranger 4/Thunder Guide 10/Heir of Khyber 4
Lord Kole Naerrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18787020&postcount=127) Changeling Rogue 1/Bard 4/Thunder Guide 10/Spymaster 5
Lord The Speaker: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18787028&postcount=128) Changeling Rogue 3/Warblade 2/Thunder Guide 10/Cabinet Trickster 5
Lord Azrael: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18787030&postcount=129) Human Marshal 3/Paladin 2/Thunder Guide 10/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Exemplar 4
Man...we were 4 short.

My Criteria
Each entry will start at a base score of 12 (3 in each category), with deductions or bonuses awarded based on the following questions:

Originality:
Does the entry present a compelling backstory, concept, or theme aside from the mechanics of the build?
Does the entry enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
Does the entry make use of any unique mechanical tricks/feat chains?
Does the entry avoid known cheese and overused optimization suggestions?
Power:
Does the entry surpass a hypothetical build that continues in the base class used for qualification (i.e. does the entry follow established breakpoints for base classes or make a compelling case for the breakpoint selected)?
Does the entry function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers or limited resources?
Does the entry thrive without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other "add-ons" for its power?
Does the entry contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and utility? Here an answer of "No" denotes that the build thrives in one or fewer of those three categories, "yes and no" denotes that the build thrives in two of those three categories, and "yes" denotes that the build wins the elusive triple crown--pulling its weight in terms of all three of those categories.
Elegance:
Does the entry qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry qualify for all feats and skill tricks taken?
Does the entry avoid reliance on any questionable rules interpretations, as well as providing a list of source material while avoiding cross-setting material or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
Does the entry avoid multi-class penalties and dipping* more than once?
UoSI:
Does the entry qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of all entry requirements?
Does the entry complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry synergize the unique mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build and/or present a novel use of said mechanical abilities?
Does the entry complement the background, concept, or theme of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?
*Where "dipping" is defined as taking two or fewer levels in a base class or prestige class.
Each of the questions above can be answered in one of three ways. A straight "yes" will earn a +0.5 bonus to the category in question. A straight "no" will suffer a -0.5 penalty to the category, and an ambivalent "yes and no" will wash out with no adjustment to the category. Other scoring rules (like a flat -1 penalty per Flaw used, for instance) will be followed as requested by the Chairperson in the thread. If there are any questions about the clarity of my criteria in general, please post them openly so I can address. If there are any disagreements with particular scores, please PM the chairperson as part of the regular dispute process.

Heliomance

2015-02-12, 05:12 AM

For you, dear judges.

Because I don't want judges' eyes to bleed, let me clarify Kole Naerrin's skills: His lowest-skill class is Thunder Guide, at 4+int (or 6). At every level, he maxes out Craft (Writing), Forgery, Bluff, Disguise, Perform (Oratory), and Diplomacy. During bard levels, when he has 8 skill points, he also puts points in Gather Information and Sense Motive. During spymaster and rogue levels, he additionally puts points into Decipher Script and Knowledge: Local.

...and, I just realized that I forgot to account for the changeling rogue's 10+int, meaning that he's got 8 more skill points at first level. So just assume those are maxed out Craft (Basketweaving) and Profession (Contest entrant), I guess.

Zaq

2015-02-12, 05:29 PM

3/6 done. No one has yet scored at or above average (12 points). No idea if that'll stay true for the remaining three, but we'll find out.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-12, 06:30 PM

Heliomance

2015-02-13, 01:22 AM

Does posting this count as Chairperson Approval to treat this as an official addendum to the entry?

Seeing as it's just clarification and not additional content, yes.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-13, 09:12 AM

Seeing as it's just clarification and not additional content, yes.

Duly noted.

kaffalidjmah

2015-02-13, 09:37 AM

EDIT: due to a mistake from my part, i have to re-do everything. hope for monday to do the stuff

Heliomance

2015-02-13, 09:46 AM

kaffalidjmah

2015-02-13, 09:50 AM

Uh... Use of the Secret Ingredient is not a category for how good your backstory is. It's for how well you used the SI, whether you're getting full use out of all its class features, whether it's obvious why you're in this class as opposed to something else, that sort of thing. Backstory is... pretty irrelevant to it.

i writed in a previous judging post that i looked for it in that way, why everyone haven't me noticed this? damn *pick up stuf and re-do everything*

EDIT: at least the format was correct?

Venger

2015-02-13, 12:06 PM

i writed in a previous judging post that i looked for it in that way, why everyone haven't me noticed this? damn *pick up stuf and re-do everything*

EDIT: at least the format was correct?

people did ask you questions about your judging and provided resources for how to judge, including myself. the reason people haven't been more specific (especially us chefs) is that we've been slapped on the wrist when getting proactive re: judging criteria in the past. also since this round is so small (only 6 dishes) most of the spectators have no personal stake in understanding your criteria.

there isn't a problem if you want to sit this one out and gather more experience before judging an IC. no shame in that. we're all having a lot of trouble understanding your posts as it stands, and I can imagine that will only be exacerbated in judging proper.

WeaselGuy

2015-02-13, 12:10 PM

First, let me say, that I wholeheartedly agree with and appreciate the diversity on this site, and with the D&D community as a whole. That being said, sometimes I feel like I should have gone into cryptology instead of IT...

Chronos

2015-02-13, 12:23 PM

Was this another one of those cases where someone edits away a post as soon as it's commented on, leaving the rest of us in the dark as to what the comment was about?

Venger

2015-02-13, 12:28 PM

Was this another one of those cases where someone edits away a post as soon as it's commented on, leaving the rest of us in the dark as to what the comment was about?

Yes, although given the context, it's not difficult to figure out:

early in the thread, kaffalidjmah made an ambiguous statement about judging. most of us interpreted it as him asking if people would judge his dish/pitch before the reveal and that was it for then.

he then refined his statement somewhat and said he wanted to judge. he asked for guidelines which I gave in two separate forms. he posted his judging criteria which no one could make heads or tails of and a few posters offered suggestions on how to improve them.

just a few posts above, I gather he posted his judgings, but they were incorrect, somehow taking the view that backstory goes under UotSI (?) and heliomance graciously stepped in and told him that's wrong. he retracted his judgings.

given how things are going, I suggest kaffalidjmah just sit on them. i have an ill feeling and dont' want another green star adept on our hands.

dysprosium

2015-02-13, 12:37 PM

Yes, although given the context, it's not difficult to figure out:

early in the thread, kaffalidjmah made an ambiguous statement about judging. most of us interpreted it as him asking if people would judge his dish/pitch before the reveal and that was it for then.

he then refined his statement somewhat and said he wanted to judge. he asked for guidelines which I gave in two separate forms. he posted his judging criteria which no one could make heads or tails of and a few posters offered suggestions on how to improve them.

just a few posts above, I gather he posted his judgings, but they were incorrect, somehow taking the view that backstory goes under UotSI (?) and heliomance graciously stepped in and told him that's wrong. he retracted his judgings.

given how things are going, I suggest kaffalidjmah just sit on them. i have an ill feeling and dont' want another green star adept on our hands.

You are correct. I did read that post before it was edited though. Scores were high with backstory being a focal point in the Use of Special Ingredient category.

Personally, considering the SI for this round, I would have thought backstory would have to be considered somewhat.

I've also haven't seen a Chair come in a say that judging was incorrect before. It would have been quite helpful in certain rounds past considering a certain judge's style . . . And you regulars know exactly to whom I am referring.

Venger

2015-02-13, 01:00 PM

You are correct. I did read that post before it was edited though. Scores were high with backstory being a focal point in the Use of Special Ingredient category.

Personally, considering the SI for this round, I would have thought backstory would have to be considered somewhat.

I've also haven't seen a Chair come in a say that judging was incorrect before. It would have been quite helpful in certain rounds past considering a certain judge's style . . . And you regulars know exactly to whom I am referring.

Backstory goes in originality. Simple as that. No one is saying backstory shouldn't be considered. Most judges don't care about it one way or another. Some, such as ponies and myself treat it as a bonus to beef up a flagging originality. However, it doesn't belong in UotSI.

It's got some precedent, but it hasn't happened a while. Yes. Yes we do. Personally, I'm all for it for just that reason.

Heliomance is changing much as chair. I'm in full support of this. We've got other judges, so losing this one won't disrupt anything.

Amphetryon

2015-02-13, 01:08 PM

Venger

2015-02-13, 01:14 PM

I recall asking a judge to reconsider scores, based on the apparent criteria used, at least once during my run as Chair. I hope Heliomance's experience with that goes. . . more smoothly. . . than mine.

Yyyyyyeah.

I think it might be easier to sidestep the issue, myself, rather than roll the dice with that again.

dysprosium

2015-02-13, 02:07 PM

I was just reporting what was there.

I consider backstory in Originality as well. I wasn't trying to say that backstory should be for the Use of Secret Ingredient. I just meant that considering that some of the class features were fluff based, I would think that backstory would have some weight in judging.

I know that different Chairpersons are going to have different styles. And I can see that Heliomance runs the show different than Kuulvheysoon did. Since my participation in these contests started with Kuulvheysooon as Chair, I have never seen a Chair point to a judging and say, "That's not really what we're looking for here." It was surprising to me, that's all.

The point of these contests is supposed to be to have fun and make a character that fits the parameters of the contest itself, right?

WhamBamSam

2015-02-13, 02:26 PM

kaffalidjmah

2015-02-13, 03:20 PM

Heliomance

2015-02-13, 04:11 PM

If you want to consider backstory under UotSI, I don't really have that many objections, especially with an SI as fluff-heavy as this one - although, I'd certainly be inclined to put it under Originality myself. I only mentioned it because kaffalidjmah didn't actually cover how well the secret ingredient was used at all in the Use of the Secret Ingredient category, which I feel rather defeats the object.

...have I really changed that much? Now you're making me nervous, guys! I hope I'm not screwing the contest up :smalleek:

Zaq

2015-02-13, 04:36 PM

Nothing helps you work on a project like having a bigger, more important project that you don't really want to work on. In this case, the Iron Chef judging is the smaller project, so as far as this forum is concerned, you're coming out ahead.

4/6 fully complete, and one more about half done, give or take. Still haven't had anyone crack a score of 12 or higher, but hey, if everyone's doing below average, then it evens out, right?

I'm also above 7,400 words and counting, for what that's worth. I think it's less verbose than I was when I was judging Dread Pirate, but there were more entries for Dread Pirate, so I dunno.

The Viscount

2015-02-13, 04:57 PM

Don't be worried, Heliomance. You're not changing that much, it's just that Chairs after you have been largely conservative. I welcome the changes; I think stuff like dungeon lord injects some new life into the competition. Iron Chef was yours to begin with, so you can't really "ruin" it.

Sian

2015-02-13, 05:04 PM

... Might be a wee bit premature (in terms of when next contest start), but considered revisiting some of the previously done dishes?

Heliomance

2015-02-13, 05:15 PM

... Might be a wee bit premature (in terms of when next contest start), but considered revisiting some of the previously done dishes?

Psh, I'm gnot going to run out of ingredients any time soon!

Strange, since part of the reason I abandoned the chair in the first place was running out of ideas, but now I'm generally running with ideas for at least the next three contests at all times.

Not sure how mad I'm going to drive you with the next ingredient. On the one hand, the class features are utter garbage. On the other, it does have full casting, which makes it hard to go wrong.

Troacctid

2015-02-13, 06:53 PM

You know what ingredient I'd like to see? Elocater. It's a cool class, but I've been looking at potential builds for it and it's not obvious to me how to get the best use out of it.

Venger

2015-02-13, 07:18 PM

Hello guys! I thinked a lot in this afternoon and again a lot this evening. I am not ready for judge, as someone have stated, and i will gladly accept this statement as true. I am able to understand that i have made some error (some? I want to say many) and i want to say just one thing: if i remember correctly, everyone can say his honorable mention vote. If i'm right, my mention goes to

KOLE NAERRIN!!!

After that, good cooking!

Thanks a lot for being a good sport, kaffalidjmah. You have a lot of class (pun intended)

Yes, it's perfectly all right for us to air our HMs either in PM or in public. Thanks for the reminder. I want to give mine to Azrael because I'm a 90s kid and fondly remember Knightfall.

...have I really changed that much? Now you're making me nervous, guys! I hope I'm not screwing the contest up :smalleek:

Don't be worried, Heliomance. You're not changing that much, it's just that Chairs after you have been largely conservative. I welcome the changes; I think stuff like dungeon lord injects some new life into the competition. Iron Chef was yours to begin with, so you can't really "ruin" it.

As the viscount said, don't you worry about a thing (cuz every little thing's gonna be all right)

It's your contest to start with in the first place, and I too really enjoy the new life you've injected into the event with nonstandard classes like dungeon lord (even if I didn't place, I had a blast with both of my dishes) and by starting the down-home cookin' round. while we wait on judgings to help people feel less of the pain of waiting.

Nothing helps you work on a project like having a bigger, more important project that you don't really want to work on. In this case, the Iron Chef judging is the smaller project, so as far as this forum is concerned, you're coming out ahead.

4/6 fully complete, and one more about half done, give or take. Still haven't had anyone crack a score of 12 or higher, but hey, if everyone's doing below average, then it evens out, right?

I'm also above 7,400 words and counting, for what that's worth. I think it's less verbose than I was when I was judging Dread Pirate, but there were more entries for Dread Pirate, so I dunno.

But what could possibly be more important than iron chef?

srsly though, thanks for judging and getting it done so quickly.

holy symbol! each dish has ~1850 words? I feel like none of us is going to have any disputes if you went into that level of depth with each of our dishes.

in my defense, my dish only sucks so hard because it has 10 levels of thunder guide. :p

... Might be a wee bit premature (in terms of when next contest start), but considered revisiting some of the previously done dishes?

Personally, I'd like to vote against this as well. We have hundreds and hundreds of prcs to sustain us until kingdom come. No need to double dip (to use the food metaphor)

Psh, I'm gnot going to run out of ingredients any time soon!

Strange, since part of the reason I abandoned the chair in the first place was running out of ideas, but now I'm generally running with ideas for at least the next three contests at all times.

Not sure how mad I'm going to drive you with the next ingredient. On the one hand, the class features are utter garbage. On the other, it does have full casting, which makes it hard to go wrong.

Psh, I'm gnot going to run out of ingredients any time soon!

gnot going to run out of ingredients

gnot

g
Oh sweet merciful Rao, no. Anything but that.

I wish you a long and happy reign as chair, heliomance. I've really enjoyed your rounds even if I haven't been able to cook in all of them. If the gnext one is full casting, then it can't be what I think.

You know what ingredient I'd like to see? Elocater. It's a cool class, but I've been looking at potential builds for it and it's not obvious to me how to get the best use out of it.
I would be behind that, to be honest. It's interesting, but I've never had an excuse to use it in practical play due to how easy it is to get flight.

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-13, 08:42 PM

DotU Arachnomancer!

WhamBamSam

2015-02-13, 09:13 PM

You know what ingredient I'd like to see? Elocater. It's a cool class, but I've been looking at potential builds for it and it's not obvious to me how to get the best use out of it.
I would be behind that, to be honest. It's interesting, but I've never had an excuse to use it in practical play due to how easy it is to get flight.Wow, yeah. I've never really looked at it before, but Elocater is a great IC class. On the one hand, it's a mess of dysfunction (the downside of Scorn Earth appears to kick in even if you move more than 1ft from a surface via some other means of flight). On the other, it's cooler than the other side of the pillow.

Others that I'm still looking forward to include Thief of Life, Beast Heart Adept, Rage Mage, Shiba Protector as a non dip, and Shining Blade of Heironeous (no really, I've got something lined up for that one).

Venger

2015-02-13, 09:21 PM

Wow, yeah. I've never really looked at it before, but Elocater is a great IC class. On the one hand, it's a mess of dysfunction (the downside of Scorn Earth appears to kick in even if you move more than 1ft from a surface via some other means of flight). On the other, it's cooler than the other side of the pillow.

Others that I'm still looking forward to include Thief of Life, Beast Heart Adept, Rage Mage, Shiba Protector as a non dip, and Shining Blade of Heironeous (no really, I've got something lined up for that one).

Isn't it perfect?

Those are all good choices. I'm personally holding out for either Bayushi Deceiver (really anything from oriental adventures, they're all perfect IC classes) or cloud anchorite.

I do not want shining blade of herionymous, WhamBamSam I am

sakuuya

2015-02-13, 09:32 PM

Slime Lo--wait, crap. Um...Doomlord?

Michael7123

2015-02-13, 09:47 PM

If we're talking about future builds, may I humbly suggest the Cavalier from complete warrior?

Also, for future reference, how many builds are we allowed to submit per competition?

Chronos

2015-02-13, 09:49 PM

OK, what's with the G thing?

I could totally get on board with an elocator contest: I'm rather fond of the class myself. I can think of a few ways I could go with it, though, so I'd have to focus in on one of them.

And have we really not already done Shining Blade of Heironious?

WhamBamSam

2015-02-13, 10:13 PM

Isn't it perfect?

Those are all good choices. I'm personally holding out for either Bayushi Deceiver (really anything from oriental adventures, they're all perfect IC classes) or cloud anchorite.

I do not want shining blade of herionymous, WhamBamSam I amOoh yeah, Bayushi Deceiver's a good one. It's one of those classes where the features all thematically seem like they ought to line up, but don't quite do so without a bit of fiddling. I could've sworn Cloud Anchorite was the SI from an early Iron Chef round, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I can't say I'm all that enthused about it, but I'd probably try to put something together.

Would you build it in a house? Would you build it with a mouse? (Related, I'm still a bit surprised that none of the Slime Lords made Bartholomew and the Oobleck references in their fluff.)

Slime Lo--wait, crap. Um...Doomlord?Oh yeah, Doomlord's hilarious. I'd forgotten about that one.

EDIT:
OK, what's with the G thing?

I could totally get on board with an elocator contest: I'm rather fond of the class myself. I can think of a few ways I could go with it, though, so I'd have to focus in on one of them.

And have we really not already done Shining Blade of Heironious?People have been suggesting Gnome Giant Slayer for a while now. The G is a gnome thigng.

Venger

2015-02-13, 10:22 PM

Ooh yeah, Bayushi Deceiver's a good one. It's one of those classes where the features all thematically seem like they ought to line up, but don't quite do so without a bit of fiddling. I could've sworn Cloud Anchorite was the SI from an early Iron Chef round, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I can't say I'm all that enthused about it, but I'd probably try to put something together.

Glad you like it. My thoughts exactly.

Would you build it in a house? Would you build it with a mouse? (Related, I'm still a bit surprised that none of the Slime Lords made Bartholomew and the Oobleck references in their fluff.)

I would not build it in a house, I would not build it with a mouse. I would not build it here or there, I would not build it anywhere. I think this class is quite a sham. I do not like it, WhamBamSam.

Oh yeah, Doomlord's hilarious. I'd forgotten about that one.
It's weirdly similar to cipher adept to me.

EDIT: People have been suggesting Gnome Giant Slayer for a while now. The G is a gnome thigng.
The viscount and I have been pushing for GGS for years. However, the silent g actually has its roots from a short time before.

back on the old wizards boards, one of the showcases they did was beguiler20, called the "Gnowhere Gnome." It did standard beguiler/illusion stuff. One of the conceits in its writeup was starting everything with silent G's. that's where he and I got it from.

WhamBamSam

2015-02-13, 10:34 PM

I would not build it in a house, I would not build it with a mouse. I would not build it here or there, I would not build it anywhere. I think this class is quite a sham. I do not like it, WhamBamSam.You may like it. You will see. You may like it in a tree!

It's weirdly similar to cipher adept to me. Not surprising. They're from the same book. I imagine one of the designers had a thing for wanton destruction.

The viscount and I have been pushing for GGS for years. However, the silent g actually has its roots from a short time before.

back on the old wizards boards, one of the showcases they did was beguiler20, called the "Gnowhere Gnome." It did standard beguiler/illusion stuff. One of the conceits in its writeup was starting everything with silent G's. that's where he and I got it from.The Gnowhere Gnome is itself a reference to one of those "things I am no longer allowed to do in RPGs" lists. Something about there being no such thing as gnome gninjas, and how even if there were the silent g wouldn't make them stealthier. I hognestly dogn't gnow how deep that particular rabbit hole goes.

Venger

2015-02-13, 10:36 PM

You may like it. You will see. You may like it in a tree!

Not surprising. They're from the same book. I imagine one of the designers had a thing for wanton destruction.

The Gnowhere Gnome is itself a reference to one of those "things I am no longer allowed to do in RPGs" lists. Something about there being no such thing as gnome gninjas, and how even if there were the silent g wouldn't make them stealthier. I hognestly dogn't gnow how deep that particular rabbit hole goes.

I'm sure it has roots going back as far as the word gnome itself. The desire to make stupid puns is a basic human drive.

sakuuya

2015-02-13, 10:49 PM

It can't be GGS, can it?

Not sure how mad I'm going to drive you with the next ingredient. On the one hand, the class features are utter garbage. On the other, it does have full casting, which makes it hard to go wrong.

I don't even know how to feel about this.

kaffalidjmah

2015-02-14, 06:18 AM

Thumbs up for elocater!!! I actually build one in one of my previous game, it was very funny and my master used it as villain when it turned evil

Amphetryon

2015-02-14, 07:09 AM

Psh, I'm gnot going to run out of ingredients any time soon!

Strange, since part of the reason I abandoned the chair in the first place was running out of ideas, but now I'm generally running with ideas for at least the next three contests at all times.

Not sure how mad I'm going to drive you with the next ingredient. On the one hand, the class features are utter garbage. On the other, it does have full casting, which makes it hard to go wrong.

I'm almost certain I know the PrC you're hinting at, here.

Heliomance

2015-02-14, 08:05 AM

I'm almost certain I know the PrC you're hinting at, here.
Is be very surprised if you did. It's pretty underground, you've probably never heard of it.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-14, 09:42 AM

The point of these contests is supposed to be to have fun and make a character that fits the parameters of the contest itself, right?

Sure, as long as you win.Blue text? We don't need no steenkin' blue text!

...have I really changed that much? Now you're making me nervous, guys! I hope I'm not screwing the contest up :smalleek:

I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.

OK, what's with the G thing?

It ain't nothing but a Gn thang.

Would you build it in a house? Would you build it with a mouse?

I would not build it in a house, I would not build it with a mouse. I would not build it here or there, I would not build it anywhere. I think this class is quite a sham. I do not like it, WhamBamSam.

Make it stop. No, keep going.

It's pretty underground

I see what you did there...

Michael7123

2015-02-14, 09:49 AM

Is be very surprised if you did. It's pretty underground, you've probably never heard of it.

Underground, you say?

Opens up Drow of the Underdark and Underdark

Prime Underdark Guide? It has casting, but that's independent of casting from previous levels.

Sea Mother Whip has full casting. Seems neet. Not great, but anything is better than the thunder guide.

Shadowcrafter? You get 10 DR at the end, could be worse.

Vermin Keeper. Please no. Please, PLEASE no.

Heliomance

2015-02-14, 10:04 AM

Vermin Keeper. Please no. Please, PLEASE no.

Anything that warrants that reaction is worth looking into. I'll have to take a look at that one :smallevil:

Michael7123

2015-02-14, 10:41 AM

anything that warrants that reaction is worth looking into. I'll have to take a look at that one :smallevil:

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Heliomance

2015-02-14, 12:32 PM

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

...okaay, I've looked at it, and I don't understand the fuss. It looks fairly decent to me - pretty much on par with a straight Druid.

Zaq

2015-02-14, 03:13 PM

Judging time! Let's do this! This is too long to submit as a single post, so I'm going to have to break it in two. I'd appreciate it if everyone would wait until I do that. Thanks!

Al'ayn Q'tarmayn

I feel like I'm missing a reference here, but who knows, that may end up working in your favor. Let's get started.

Originality: 3.25 Well, I didn't expect half-drow, that's for sure. That's mostly because half-drow really doesn't do much for you, but it's true that it's unexpected. That said, you somehow weren't the only half-drow, so I can't in good faith give you that many points for it. Why were there two half-drow? Beats me, but there you have it. (0) Other than that, we've got some Scout with Greater Manyshot, some Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter, nothing new there . . . haven't seen a Dread Commando in a while, though, so I can toss you some points for that. (+0.25)

Power: 3.0 No Precise Shot? That's not a good thing, my friend. Precise Shot is an absolute necessity if you want to do anything ranged. I see that you tacked Precise onto your bow, but (1) that doesn't help you with your boomerangs, (2) I explicitly stated that I don't like seeing people rely too heavily on specific items in Iron Chef, and (3) a +1 Precise bow costs 8,000+ gp, making it out of reach for quite a few levels, probably at least 6th or 7th, which is a whole lot of levels to be sucking down a –4 penalty on nearly every attack. I almost took away a whole point for this, but I'll allow the item to serve as a mitigating factor. (–0.5) (How could you have avoided that, if you wanted to acknowledge that the Precise weapon enhancement is a thing? Simple: take Precise Shot as a feat, and then in the equipment section, say “If we can count on the Precise weapon enhancement being available, we'd definitely take it, and we'd take XYZ with the newly open feat slot.” But I don't like it when chefs assume they have full access to whatever items they please.)

(Improved) Skirmish and Greater Manyshot is a classic combo, and while you don't have as many dice (or as many shots—real shame you had no way to hit that magic 16 BAB) as a Swift Hunter would, that's about as much offensive might as I've seen in this round. You just might even be able to hide well enough to pull off Sudden Strike, at least on the first round of the encounter, and Hit-and-Run Tactics is a nice enough trick for an ambush. (+0.5)

I don't think you have quite enough juice to pull of reliable hiding after being attacked—Able Sniper only gives you a +4, which is a far cry from negating the –20 penalty for sniping. Woodland Archer's Moving Sniper option is a cool trick when it works, but I'm not convinced it will work against anything with a half-decent Spot check. Still, you've got enough stealth to convince me that you'll at least start most encounters hidden, even if I don't think you'll stay that way for long. The fact that you don't have Darkstalker is a mark against you (blindsense and the like are so very, very common, after all), so I can't give you too many points for this, but at least you're trying. Your other skills are also pretty good overall, so it looks like you have some skills covered. (It's unnerving to see a Scout without Tumble, but I guess you didn't want to make Mobility totally obsolete, am I right?) Overall, I think you pull your weight in the skill department. (+0.25)

It does look like you stagnate in the latter half of your career, though. Thunder Guide doesn't make you any stronger, so your damage kind of sags, and while Woodland Archer and Able Sniper will help you a lot against low-level enemies, I'm not convinced that they'll do much against CR-appropriate foes. You're better than average in that your stealth gives you at least some ability to set the terms of the encounter (and you might be able to avoid some foes that other characters would have to engage), but once you leave Dread Commando, you don't really improve. Your attack power is kind of lacking at the start of that era, and by the end of it, you've really failed to scale. Your late-game feats are passable, preventing me from giving you a bigger penalty, but you're still a lot more valuable in an ECL 13 group than in an ECL 20 group. (–0.25)

Elegance: 3.0 The level of Fighter was a good choice. You needed to squeeze in a bonus feat somehow, and since you're good at starting encounters with flat-footed opponents, Hit-and-Run Tactics is a pretty natural choice. I like seeing a lot of utility packed into one level like that, though it's a shame you couldn't spend those skill points on something better. (+0.25)

It looks like you overspent your skill points at level 3, but since you underspent your skill points at level 2, I assume you were taking a half-rank in Diplomacy at both levels? It shouldn't be my job to figure that out—you really should list half-ranks when you take them. I won't penalize this time, but trust me, you don't want to gamble on the judges figuring that stuff out, because I was all set to take away points for overspending.

Dodge is an unfortunate prereq feat. I really wish you would have taken Expeditious Dodge, Desert Wind Dodge (I know you didn't have a DW maneuver, but still), or Midnight Dodge instead, since you don't have any feats or class features that rely on the single-target nature of Dodge, so those would have been a strict upgrade. Expeditious Dodge would have been the best, since you actually do have a 40' move speed. (I do understand that you took Dodge as a Scout bonus feat, and the Scout list doesn't have Expeditious Dodge, but you could have just taken Expeditious Dodge at 3rd level, grabbed Mobility with the bonus feat, and taken Rapid Shot later, since it's not like you use Rapid Shot as anything but a prereq, what with your mobile fighting style.) Prereqs are prereqs, but it's your job to make the most of them, and I feel like you missed a good opportunity here. (–0.25) It's a shame that you needed a feat with so many prereqs (Greater Manyshot) to keep yourself relevant at the later levels, since Rapid Shot and Manyshot really don't do you any good, but there's not much you could have done to prevent that from happening. Still, it's a shame that your early feats don't really help you that much.

Your skill points are kind of jumpy in places, but at least you never totally neglect your core skills while shoring up new ones. It's a little awkward to jump 10 ranks in two levels (especially when you're not just trying to hastily meet a prereq of some kind), let alone 20 ranks in four levels, but I understand why you did it. (0)

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.5 Well, you use Ghost of Xen'drik reasonably well, since you're actually trying to hide a lot of the time. I was expecting you to take Eye of the Chamber, since a stealthy character who starts encounters on their own terms is about the only character who could use that correctly. I'm not sure why you took Xen'drik Boomerang Expert (it's strictly inferior to using your bow, and you don't have any special tricks with it), though at least your other Thunder Lore choices are passable—if very small and situational—bonuses. You don't have enough Ride or enough STR-based skills to use Rescue Artist to the fullest (or much at all, really), so that's unfortunate, since that's one of the very few unique class features that Thunder Guide gets. Your Native Ties are fluff-appropriate enough, and at least you have enough Diplomacy to reliably make the associated checks, though it's not like they do much. (All those 2nd level potions would normally just break the bank at ECL 19, but not for you!)

Unfortunately, you didn't convince me that you're better off as a Thunder Guide than you would have been with just more levels in Scout. I know that you use Thunder Guide to take Diplomacy and other face skills, which I guess is better than nothing, but your other skills would have been much better as a Scout, not to mention your damage capabilities. (For that matter, a few levels in Rogue would have been more effective than Thunder Guide.) I don't see anything that you can do better than a non-Thunder Guide can do, and if I had to pick one as my teammate, I'd much rather have your build minus ten levels in TG and plus ten levels in Scout than I would your build as presented. You didn't really go out of your way to take advantage of any of the bonuses beyond Ghost of Xen'drik, and you just didn't make the class pop. (–1.5)

Final Thoughts: The non-Thunder Guide parts of your build are as good as any I've seen this round (you've almost surely got the highest base damage potential, or at least close to it), but like so many others, you really didn't do anything to sell me on being a Thunder Guide. The Secret Ingredient ultimately made you weaker instead of stronger, and you never managed to get past that.

Total Score: 10.75

Lord Professor Hexler

Okay, wow, that's a pain in the butt to read. Comma splices, no capitalization, bizarre spacing. I'm getting a headache just looking at it. We'll talk about this more in Elegance.

Originality: 2.5 All of your Monk abilities are Iron Chef standbys—I know that I've personally made an Iron Chef Monk with Decisive Strike, Improved Trip/Knockdown, Travel Devotion, and Invisible Fist, and I know I'm not the only one. A Factotum with Improved Trip, Knowledge Devotion, and a hellaton of Fonts of Inspiration is certainly not going to raise any eyebrows, either. I'm not seeing anything you do to break new ground, really. (–0.5) You're almost the only chef who didn't latch on to the Xen'drik boomerang, but I can't really give you credit for something you didn't do (and you're not quite alone).

Power: 2.25 It's a good thing that you pointed out that Kung Fu Genius (not “genious”) gives you INT to AC, because I was all set to chew you out for having 9 AC for your first two levels. You still have a mere 12 AC at the start of your career, which is pretty shameful (especially with low CON), but at least it's not 9. Of course, you very carefully took the ACFs that don't care if you wear armor anyway (I know, because I've done 100% exactly that trick in an Iron Chef before, ending up making a Monk in full plate), so you actually would have had better AC by just taking Light Armor Proficiency and wearing a damn chain shirt. Sure, it would have been rendered useless when you took Factotum and earned medium armor proficiency, but so is Kung Fu Genius. See, without magic items—and I told you explicitly not to rely too heavily on items—you end up with an INT mod of +5, so if you don't wear armor, you have equivalent AC to if you wore a nonmagical breastplate. If we assume your extravagant tome and headband usage, you have an INT of +11 . . . but if we're assuming you get whatever items you want, you could just make that breastplate magical, pick up a Ring of Protection here and an Amulet of Natural Armor there (and maybe even a shield, since you allegedly fight unarmed and thus have no use for an empty off-hand, but we don't even need to assume a shield for you to come out behind), and end up with the same AC for less investment (and without having spent a precious feat). You would have been better off staggering your levels as Factotum 1 / Monk 2 / Factotum 2-8, because then you would have weapon and armor proficiency from the get-go, you'd have better starting skills, and you'd have a free feat that you didn't have to waste on Kung Fu Genius (as the only WIS-based Monk feature that you didn't trade away is unarmored AC, so it's not like any of the other benefits of the feat apply to your character). Overall, this just ends up counting against you. Between the sucky AC and the wasted feat, you can't get out of this unscathed. (–0.5)

Anyway, let's look at what you get out of Factotum. Taking Improved Trip on a Factotum is never a bad idea, even though using unarmed strikes instead of a basic weapon isn't a smart thing to do. (+0.25) (I would have made that +0.5, but you're effectively giving up a +4 bonus by using unarmed strikes instead of a weapon, and I can't reward that. If you're thinking “but I use a weapon, not an unarmed strike,” it's your fault for not telling me that in your build strategy section.) Knowledge Devotion is always useful, and you've got enough Knowledges to make it decent, though I really wish you would have taken Collector of Stories to turbocharge it a little earlier. (+0.25) Based on your comments about Tumble, I think you forgot that Cunning Knowledge can only boost a given skill once per day, no matter how much inspiration you spend, so I can't really give you as much credit for your skills as you'd probably like, since it looks like you're relying on Cunning Knowledge more than you really should.

Decisive Strike + Travel Devotion is a classic combo, though it's really dicey if you can sacrifice Opportunistic Piety pseudoturns for more uses of it. (The wrinkle is that you have to sacrifice multiple turn attempts at once to fuel Travel Devotion, but Opportunistic Piety gives you a single turn attempt for a standard action and an inspiration point, so it's not at all clear that you can generate enough turn attempts at once to actually give you more uses of Travel Devotion.) Since I don't think you can actually use it more than once per day, I can't give you too many points for it. (+0.25) It's also worth mentioning that Invisible Fist conflicts with Travel Devotion, so you might want to be aware of that.

I see that you made sure to fit Cunning Surge into your build, but unfortunately, I don't see why you bothered. You have a couple low-level SLAs from Factotum and from Thunder Guide, but none of them are high enough level to turn the tide of a battle at ECL 10+, even if they show up as a “free” standard action. You don't have anything interesting to do with your standard actions other than attack. If you had, say, some martial maneuvers or something like that, it might be interesting to combine them with Decisive Strike (because DS explicitly doubles the damage of every attack you make in the round, so the standard-action maneuver would be doubled), but you don't. You spent four feats on Font of Inspiration to make sure that you'd be able to fuel Cunning Surge, but I think you forgot that Cunning Surge is great because it gives you actions to spend on other things, not just on its own. Action economy may be king, but if you don't have anything worthwhile to DO with your actions, it doesn't matter how many of them you get. (0)

After you go into Thunder Guide, nothing you do really gets any better. You didn't tell me why I should care about any of the tiny little bonuses you get from Thunder Guide. You devoted three big paragraphs to the abilities you get from Monk and Factotum, and one tiny little paragraph to what you get from Thunder Guide (which is more a listing of the class features than any rationale of why you care about them or what good they do you). Based on this, I'm forced to conclude that you stop scaling at level 10, and you don't actually bring anything new to the table for the second half of the game. You keep up your K: Arcana checks, so Knowledge Devotion will give you a slightly bigger set of numbers against certain enemies, and you keep a few other skills at a passable level, but that's it. No new tricks, not even really bigger numbers, no nothing. Just blah. The tricks that worked at level 10 are not going to be that effective at level 15, let alone level 20, so it seems to me that you simply gave up trying to contribute after level 10. I know that you keep gaining inspiration points with FoI, but like I said above, the amount of good that does you is pretty limited, so I don't see that as making you sufficiently stronger to avoid this penalty. (–1.0)

Elegance: 3.0 Your entry was really, really hard to read, and that does not make me happy. First, you did not make it easy for me to determine your race. You're lucky that you listed your 1st level feat as “human,” because that was literally the only indication I had of your race. That's not okay. Second, my eyes twisted in on themselves trying to read your text. Like I said, there's no capitalization, you've got several comma splices, I can't figure out your spacing scheme, and it just isn't easy to read. Making me unhappy results in a penalty. (–0.5)

Your classes themselves flow nicely enough before you enter Thunder Guide. Two levels of Monk is a classic dip, and using the levels of Monk to easily get Improved Trip is effective, if not exactly new and exciting. (+0.25)

I don't like how random your skills are—as I said in Power, Cunning Knowledge only works once per skill per day, so while it makes sense for a few skills to have that option in your back pocket, some of them just seem weird. (How often are you going to need exactly one Swim check, or exactly one Ride check? Why did you bother putting a point in Truespeak when Truespeak literally cannot do anything without utterances or similar abilities?) Overall, I see your goal of having back-pocket options for a lot of skills, but I feel like not that many of them are actually going to be useful with a single good check per day, so I don't feel inclined to give you any points for it. (0)

You don't have any weird prereqs lying around forever, and I approve of that. Your score in Power probably suffered for not building toward any particular goal, but at least you basically never said “it'll pay off in four levels, trust me,” and that's something to be at least a little bit proud of. (+0.25)

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.25 Well, you entered Thunder Guide really late, as late as you possibly could to actually finish it on time. This is bad for two reasons. First, it means that by the time you actually get any bonuses from Thunder Guide, it's probably too late in the game for them to really be terribly noticeable. Second, it indicates to me that you value Thunder Guide less than you value the rest of your build—that it's just there because it has to be there, not because it really makes the build stronger. You probably managed to make your build slightly stronger in the early game by not having Thunder Guide in it, but that's still not something that's going to serve you well when we're considering UoSI. Furthermore, you explicitly stated that your sweet spot happens at level 10, which is before you took your first level in Thunder Guide. While that's probably true, that means that I can't really give you too many points for using Thunder Guide, now can I? I see absolutely no reason for you to be a Thunder Guide. You don't use any of its abilities in your strategy. You don't go out of your way to incorporate its features into your style, or to make any of its features better or more relevant. It's the quintessential example of taking the Secret Ingredient only because it is the Secret Ingredient, not because it actually does anything for the build. You did at least take all 10 levels, so I won't give you a rock-bottom score, but you did nothing to convince me that this build should be a Thunder Guide. There's nothing you do better than a non-Thunder Guide does (you don't even have enough points in STR-based skills to make Rescue Artist, one of the class's only unique features, relevant), and there's no reason for you to actually be a Thunder Guide. (–1.75)

Final Thoughts: This build did not make me happy. It was a pain to read, it seemed to actively avoid doing anything with the Secret Ingredient, it didn't bring anything to the table that I've never seen before, and it doesn't bring enough early power to the table to survive the late-game slump.

Total Score: 9.0

Noamuth, the Aberrant

Originality: 4.0 Well, you weren't the only half-drow, which probably surprises you as much as it surprises me. You were the only half-drow who used half-drow to qualify for anything, which is a bit of a mark in your favor, but I can't really give you credit for using half-drow when I didn't give Al'ayn credit for using half-drow. Aberrant (not “abberant.” by the way) dragonmarks aren't something you see very often, though, and I didn't even know Child of Khyber existed, so you do get credit for that. It takes a lot to bring in a whole class I literally had no idea about, so you'll be rewarded for that. (+1.0)

Power: 1.0 I'm not sure why you took a lot of what you took. Spring Attack doesn't play nice with Pounce—or rather, Pounce is almost strictly better than Spring Attack, so that's three whole feats you're spending to make yourself worse than if you just used Pounce. I don't like seeing wasted feats. (–0.75) You gave up your spells to take Champion of the Wild, but you never selected a Champion of the Wild bonus feat, so I'm really not sure what you were intending to do there. I see very few times when it's worth it to spend a standard action in combat to cast your Shield SLA, though I suppose Shield is, at least, one of the Least Aberrant Dragonmarks that doesn't offer a saving throw. I can kind of respect the flavor of Blessed of Vulkoor and of Drow Skirmisher, but they seem like pretty much wasted feats—the SLAs of BoV are so minor as to be nearly useless, and I don't see what benefit a non-scaling Medium Monstrous Scorpion offers you (especially with no ranks in Craft: Poisonmaking, so you can't use it just as a source of venom); Drow Skirmisher seems like it's not giving you anything more than drow long knife proficiency (though I'm not sure why that's important, as the DLK isn't really an amazeballs weapon—since you have no ranged combat capabilities, they're totally equivalent to short swords for you) and a conditional +1 to damage, which is about as lame a benefit as you can get for a feat, flavor or no flavor. (–0.5) Skewer Foe is about your only feat that's actually worth anything as far as your chosen combat style goes, and even it's not that impressive, especially at ECL 18+.

Whirlpouncebarian is a classic dip for a reason, and I'm glad that you actually do have Pounce. It's a shame that you wasted so many feats—you could have taken ITWF, and maybe something else that would actually increase your damage, but at least you can move and make a few attacks. (+0.25)

I'm not impressed by your skills. A lot of them have too little investment to really be worth anything (or the investment comes really weirdly late in the game), and you don't really excel at anything but Survival. I do understand that you max out Survival to make Track useful, but it looks like that's about the only skill you can be relied upon to handle for the party. Late in the game, you can hit a few low DCs for face skills, but I wouldn't feel comfortable having you serve as the party's front man. In short, your out-of-combat tricks do not impress me, so I don't feel like your adventuring utility shores up your combat abilities. (–0.25)

Child of Khyber gets you a couple tricks, I suppose, but I don't see them as being really amazing. Touch of Idiocy is probably the best one, though since penalties don't usually stack with themselves and it can't bring the target's scores below 1, it's unlikely that it will actually do anything to bring combat to a close faster. Cloudkill isn't very impressive at ECL 20, especially with only 14 CHA backing up the save DC. Overall, I don't see why you bothered with the whole Aberrant Dragonmark chain—it's flavorful in some regard, but it's not actually very useful. (0)

Thunder Guide doesn't make you any stronger, except insofar as you get BAB from it. Nothing more than BAB increases your damage dealt between Drow Skirmisher and Skewer Foe, which is pretty sad, since it's not like you had a lot of power to begin with. TWF without a source of bonus damage is a pretty sad state of affairs, and if you actually use Spring Attack instead of Pounce, then you're just attacking once for what, 1d6 + 3 (2 STR, 1 Drow Skirmisher) before items? Maybe 1d6 + 5 if you're lucky enough to be fighting your Favored Enemy? I'm not impressed by that at level 1, but you never seem to scale above that. Level 3 is your sweet spot, when you can (in one encounter per day) make three attacks a round, which is pretty nice at level 3 (even if the damage is still pretty low). And then you never really improve on this baseline. An NPC Warrior with Power Attack is going to do more damage than you are. In short, I don't think you're worth your share of the XP budget. (–0.75)

Elegance: 2.25 Your skills, your skills, they burn my eyes! It's bloody impossible to see how you actually spent your skill points at each level. I implore you, the next time you enter Iron Chef, do something to visually distinguish new skill points from old ones. Either put the new ones in boldface, or specify the change as well as the total (for example: “Climb +1 (3)”), or don't list the old ones alongside the new ones, or something. That was really, really hard to read. (–0.25)

Speaking of your skills, they're pretty weird in a lot of places. Why so much more Move Silently than Hide? For that matter, why bother with Hide/Move Silently if you're not going to max them out? Why is your Tumble so low? (I know you used it for Twisted Charge, but it's hardly a useless skill on its own.) Why do you have any ranks in Climb and Jump if you're only going to have so few of them? Why wait so long to get the critical 5 ranks in Balance? In short, your skills didn't seem to flow naturally for me. It doesn't make sense to me why you took what you took when you took it, and that's not elegant. (–0.25)

Given that you use the stat bump up to 15 STR to qualify for Skewer Foe (and nothing else), wouldn't it make more sense to bump DEX at levels 4/8/12, and then bump STR at 16? I guess it technically makes your carrying capacity a little better, but you're delaying the actual progression of your DEX by four whole levels, when you don't need the bump for a whopping 14 levels after you first take it. That just seems totally inelegant to me. (–0.25)

Whirlpouncebarian is, as I said in Power, a good dip for a reason. You get more power out of your first level in Barbarian than you get out of any other level in your whole build, and I like seeing a lot of utility crammed into a small investment. I think you might have gotten more use out of a level in Fighter or another full BAB class rather than Barb 2, but it's not like it's bad to have Uncanny Dodge. (+0.25)

Taking one level of Thunder Guide at 5th level is really weird—Thunder Guide 1 is nearly a dead level, and I don't see it letting you qualify for anything else by spacing out your other levels, so that's just weird to me. Why take it at all if you're going to ignore it for three levels? (–0.25)

I don't see anything that would let you cleverly cover a weakness, I don't see any elegant ways of meeting prereqs, I don't see anything that's especially synergistic (I guess TWF + Pounce, but that's so elementary that I can hardly give you credit for it)—in short, nothing about this screams elegance to me.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.5 Why are you a Thunder Guide? What does Thunder Guide give you? I suppose Pandin Temn fits thematically with your FE: Giants, but that's the only Thunder Lore that does you much good (your attacks are too wimpy to ever trigger Vicious Barbarism, you don't have Quick Draw or Precise Shot or anything else you'd need to get any use out of Xen'drik Boomerang Expert, and you don't have any ranks in Swim to use Breath of Shargon—I guess Ghost of Xen'drik bumps up your Survival a little, though your Hide/MS are too low to take advantage of the Hide/MS bonuses). You put a few token ranks in Gather Info to make your Stormreach Irregulars Native Ties make a little bit of sense, I guess, and you can PROBABLY make the Diplomacy checks associated with the other Native Ties you have, but I don't see you really going out of your way to really make your picks do anything for you. You have a couple token ranks in some STR-based skills, so I guess you can use Rescue Artist a little bit better than some of your fellow chefs, but not enough to make me really sit up and take notice. I don't think you're better off being a Thunder Guide than you would have been for taking more Barbarian and/or Ranger. Truth be told, I'm not sure you'd be worth your share of the XP budget even without Thunder Guide, since you're really not bringing anything to the table, but if I had to have you as a partymate, I'd rather have you be a normal Barbarian than a Thunder Guide. About the only things I can say in your favor are that you did take the first level as soon as possible (though that didn't actually do your build any good), and you did take all ten levels, so I guess that counts for something. But you did nothing to sell the class to me, there's nothing you can do better than a non-Thunder Guide can do, and I just don't see the point. (–1.5)

Final Thoughts: This is one of the weakest characters I've seen in an Iron Chef context. Some of your feats seem flavorful on paper, but they don't actually let you do anything that would let that flavor shine through in the game. Combine that with a really lackluster SI (that you didn't do anything special with), and this is what you get.

Total Score: 8.75

Zaq

2015-02-14, 03:16 PM

Kole Naerrin

All I can say is this: You cheeky bastard, that's brilliant.

Originality: 5.0 I feel like you're angling to get most of your points in Originality, huh? Well, you've definitely earned something good here. I did not see this coming. At all. You know what, just go ahead and have a perfect score for leaving me totally gobsmacked with your premise. You earned it. (+2.0)

Power: 3.5 This is not an easy category for this character. You're very clever in that you've clearly changed the expectations of how this character is going to perform—you are, quite simply, not intended to be a combat character, and I understand that. With 8 STR/CON, if you can't talk your way out of a problem, your best bet is probably to bravely run away—a combat that actually starts pretty much counts as a loss for you, as your whole character is designed around out-of-combat problem solving. To that end, you did a good job making it clear what your intentions are—you didn't split the difference and show up with some half-assed combat tricks that don't really do much but take up build resources; you showed up with no combat tricks at all, and that tells me that you're fully aware that you're not capable of contributing once initiative is rolled. And that takes guts in Iron Chef, because 3.5 is a game that centers a whole lot around combat, like it or not. So I'm in kind of a tough spot with you. I need to recognize that this simply isn't intended to be a combat king (and I need to judge you based on what you're trying to do, not on what you're not trying to do), but I also need to recognize that combat is a part of the game, and it's a part that you just can't do. Hmm.

Let's just take it one step at a time. Out of combat, you're a brilliant party face. You've got killer totals in most of the key face skills, you've got the ability to take 10 on a lot of them, and you've even got enough languages to serve as the party face pretty much wherever you want to go. Spymaster fits the concept like a glove—your cover identities are exactly what you need to reify the concept of the Thunder Guide, and your ability to pretend to be these fake “Thunder Guides” is unimpeachable. Even Deceitful and Negotiator somehow make sense for this character—+2 to a couple of skills isn't very handy when that's taking up a feat slot that could make you better at combat, but when those skills are the only thing actually keeping you away from combat (which you just don't do), it makes a lot more sense to spend that feat in that way. I do wish you prioritized Sense Motive just a little bit higher, because I view Sense Motive as being one of the really key face skills, but it's not like you ignored it entirely, and you do have some decent bonuses to it, along with Skill Mastery. I feel like that's worth a lot. If you're in your element, you're about as good as it's going to get, and I recognize that. (+1.0)

I also have to recognize that, like I said above, a combat that starts is a combat that you've basically lost. Having you in the party (though it looks like you're more intended as a loner, sort of) in an actual game would be a little bit frustrating, because you either get us out of trouble with no combat (which might make the more combat-focused characters—you know there's some in every group—restless), or you sit around in combat being useless (which would probably be less than fun for you, and which might make some other party members feel resentful of your “dead weight” once initiative is rolled). In that regard, you're not a team player. You're not quite an Apostle of Peace, but you have sort of the same problem in that your character comes to the table with a fundamental shift in how you expect the game to be played, and that shift can't just be ignored by the rest of the table (on either side of the GM screen) without completely ruining your character concept. I do understand that Kole is more intended to be an NPC than an adventuring party-bound PC, but the fact remains, there's a major component of the game that you just can't contribute to. I feel like the fact that you're obviously not trying to contribute in combat is a mitigating factor (like I said, this would be much worse if you pretended that you could actually do anything worthwhile in a fight, when you really would just come up short), but I'm not comfortable just throwing away such a major aspect of the game. (–0.5) Kole kind of feels more like a Shadowrun character than a D&D 3.5 character—I've only ever played in one Shadowrun game, but it seems to me like that's a system where it's more natural to have characters who just can't fight at all, in contrast to D&D's expectation that everyone is going to do SOMETHING once initiative is rolled.

Elegance: 2.5 Thank you for having the Chair update your entry with an explanation of how your skill points were spent. That was a pain to read without the explanation, and that explanation prevented you from taking a penalty here for lack of ease of reading. But yeah, in the future, please visually distinguish new skill points from old ones. (0)

Overall, everything seems to line up. Changeling Rogue is just about the best level 1 class to take for any talky-type character, and that's doubly true for someone like you who needs to talk their way out of whatever trouble they come across. Bard gets you some magic tricks to augment your exploits (Disguise Spell was a really good choice there), and Spymaster sets up the whole gamble. Everything has a reason to be there, and there's nothing messy or out of place. Hell, even Skill Focus (Bluff), which I'd normally deride as being kind of a weak feat, makes sense for you, both as a prereq and as a feat on its own. (+0.25)

There is some bad news, though. You don't qualify for two of your feats. Obtain Familiar requires 4 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), and Practiced Spellcaster requires 4 ranks in Spellcraft, neither of which you have. I'm going to have to assess you a half-point penalty for each of those—you probably could shuffle your skill points in some manner to qualify for those, but it's more than just a simple obvious swap, so I've gotta mark off. (–1.0)

I appreciate that you don't have any prereqs just lying around. The only thing you take that's a prereq is Skill Focus (Bluff), and even that makes sense for you at the level you take it. You never have to say “it'll make sense in four levels, trust me,” and I like to see that. (+0.25)

Even Deceitful and Negotiator are elegant for you, in their own way. I was thinking that it might be better to have something like Shape Soulmeld (Silvertongue Mask) or Bind Vestige (Naberius), but then it occurred to me that those would inevitably give you some kind of distinguishing feature, which is something you just couldn't afford when you're pretending to be someone else. The only feats that might have been more appropriate are those two social feats from PHB2 (Master Manipulator and Wanderer's Diplomacy), but not to the extent that I'd say you're strictly worse for having taken Deceitful and Negotiator. And let me tell you, it takes a pretty special character to make me think that Deceitful and Negotiator are anything other than wasted slots.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.0 This is another tricky category to judge you in. Your reification of the very concept of the Thunder Guide is brilliant—you're a Thunder Guide because you have to be a Thunder Guide, because only by being a Thunder Guide can you convince people that the Thunder Guide exists, even though it doesn't exist in the way you say it does. Except it does, because you are one. Kind of. It's brilliant and I love it.

You did even kind of use some of the abilities that Thunder Guide gives you, which is neat. Some of them are a pretty big stretch (yeah, Breath of Shargon is nice, but how can you actually give a presentation while holding your breath?), but it pretty much makes sense for you to be a Thunder Guide.

The tricky part is that I recognize that this is total shenanigans on your part, and while I'm very impressed with your chutzpah and your mind tricks, I'm not totally hoodwinked. You've established that you want to be a Thunder Guide because Thunder Guide's abilities help you pretend to be a Thunder Guide, which you can do better than any non-Thunder Guide because you're a Thunder Guide. Your goal is to pretend to be a Thunder Guide, so of course Thunder Guide's abilities help you pretend to be one. As brilliant as that is, it's still kind of circular logic, and it doesn't really prove to me that you're better off being a Thunder Guide than you are being more Spymaster and/or Bard. Sure, being able to chuck around a Xen'drik boomerang in front of a crowd might add some credibility to your performance as a Thunder Guide, but is it actually better than having more cover identities, or being able to fool divination spells with those cover identities, or getting enough Bard magic to learn Glibness? Is the bonus to Gather Information you get from the Stormreach Irregulars better than having enough Bard to learn and cast Improvisation at a high CL? I'm not convinced that that's the case. On the one hand, Thunder Guide mechanically forces the GM to give you specific fluff benefits, so you could argue that more Bard wouldn't guarantee that you'd end up able to use the title “Lord,” and it wouldn't guarantee that you could give presentations to packed university halls, and it wouldn't guarantee that you'd get free lodging in Pylas Talaear, but if anyone could earn those benefits through RP and other tricks, it would be Kole here. Thunder Guide gives you the ability to fake being a Thunder Guide as written in the book, but I don't think it's the best way of faking being a lowercase thunder guide, defined as “a well-known and well-traveled adventurer in the Thunder Sea region who gets along with the natives in that area better than most.”

So I'm kind of stuck. I want to reward you for being a Thunder Guide because you have to be a Thunder Guide, but I can't just let myself be totally won over by your shenanigans. In the end, I think I'll just chuck a point at you and be done with it. (+1.0)

Final Thoughts: I do believe that this is the cheekiest Iron Chef entry I have ever seen. You basically reified the Secret Ingredient. You successfully shifted the lens through which you want the character to be viewed, and you did it with panache. I like this entry. You went far enough to pull it off (this would have absolutely bombed if you half-assed it), and I have to respect that. (Also, using the names of example Thunder Guides as your cover identities was an excellent touch—good show, sir or madam.)

Total Score: 15.0

The Speaker

At least you don't have quite the same hatred for capital letters that Hexler does, but still, did I or did I not ask you to make it easy to read? Please try a little harder on that front next time, okay?

Originality: 3.0 Your fluff wasn't bad, at least. Changeling Rogue is nothing new, though I didn't expect anyone to try to bring in a Cabinet Trickster, so I can at least give you some credit for that. (+0.25) Boomerang Daze is the obvious thing to do with the SI's boomerang trick, though as we'll discuss in Power, I don't think you really do anything effective with it. Still, it's pretty obvious, so it's not exactly original. (–0.25)

Power: 2.25 Well, Warblade tricks are always nice, but I can't tell what range you want to be fighting at. Stormguard Warrior and the majority of your offensive maneuvers are melee-only, but Boomerang Daze implies, well, fighting with a boomerang at range. I don't see you having too many tricks to get your damage up for Boomerang Daze's save DC, you don't have Precise Shot to mitigate the penalties associated with ranged combat, and you don't have Quick Draw to actually use more than one boomerang per turn (this isn't Zelda—a boomerang only comes back to your hand if you miss, not if you hit, so you've gotta spend the actions to draw a new one each time you want to throw one), so Boomerang Daze doesn't actually seem like it's doing much for you. Wait . . . are you using Aptitude shenanigans to try to apply Boomerang Daze to your melee attacks? Are you using Aptitude to get EWP with a different weapon than the boomerang? It's not at all clear from your strategy. I'm not even sure if it's RAW-legal to use Aptitude to make Boomerang Daze apply to melee attacks. Overall, I'm confused, and it's not a good idea to confuse the judges. Even if you are using Boomerang Daze at melee range, you don't seem to be very effective with it—with 10 STR, you aren't going to be terribly accurate, and you aren't going to do a lot of damage when you do hit (a lone die of Sneak Attack does not impress me), unless you spend a round charging up with Stormguard Warrior, which comes online pretty darn late (and which still requires you to hit). Overall, I'm not impressed. I can't tell what range you're fighting at, and really, with 10 STR and 12 DEX (and no real tricks to shore up those weaknesses), you're not in a position to fight at any range. (–0.75) I do understand that you're using Emerald Razor to make the occasional touch attack, but again, that attack has basically no power behind it (and it's just a single swing), so I'm not impressed.

Anyway, Cabinet Trickster. Cabinet Trickster is a nice class, but by the time you take it, it's probably too late to matter, don't you think? Most of its tricks are tied to your class level, and I don't know about you, but I'm not too scared by a DC 11 (10 + 1 class level + 0 CHA) Will save at ECL 16. (A 10 WIS Fighter with no Cloak of Resistance will succeed against that 75% of the time at that level.) You don't have any CHA to get the save DCs up, and you don't have the class levels to make them matter (either in terms of DC or in terms of uses per day) until reeeeally late in the game, so I can't see you succeeding with any of your Cabinet Trickster tricks with anything approaching reliability. The bonus feats are minor at best at the levels you get them (Disturbing Visage is flavorful, but the mechanical effects are nearly negligible by ECL 19+), and while Change Shape is useful, I'm not impressed by a level 20 power that mimics a level 2 spell, even if it is at will. No penalty, but I don't feel like it adds enough to your power to warrant a bonus, either. It's just too little too late. (0)

You seem to be relying on Stormguard Warrior's ability to sacrifice AoOs for hit/damage bonuses, but I'm not at all clear where you're getting these AoOs to sacrifice. You make no mention of using a reach weapon, tripping your foes, making difficult terrain to impede Tumbling, snagging Thicket of Blades, using Mage Slayer, hiding next to enemies, inciting foes to flee from you, generating AoOs through Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit, or otherwise actually getting AoOs through any method other than trusting in the GM being boneheaded with the enemies. You also don't have Combat Reflexes, not that you have the DEX to really take advantage of it. I understand using Rapid Counter (not Sudden Counter—that took me a few minutes to puzzle together) in place of Combat Reflexes, but that comes online awfully late, and again, I don't see how you're actually going to trigger it except against very stupid foes. Since Stormguard Warrior seems to be your only “reliable” source of damage bonuses, I think your core offense really falls flat. (–0.25)

Your skills are passable. Changeling Rogue is one of the best things to take at level 1 for a reason, after all—skill points are juicy, and Skill Mastery at level 1 is bonkers. You keep your Bluff, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy at acceptable levels, and Skill Mastery makes your lack of CHA less painful. Some of your skill choices are odd (why put 3 ranks in Swim at level 14, then never touch it again? That's not enough to succeed reliably, after all), but overall, you've got enough skills in the right places that you're at least not embarrassing out of combat. (+0.25)

You didn't tell me what stance you took. Since you have Ironheart Aura, I assume that it's Punishing Stance, but I don't know that for certain. I guess Punishing Stance adds a pinprick of extra damage to your attacks, but since you didn't actually tell me about that, I can't really count it in your favor. Plus, with that DEX and CON, you might not want to be eating a penalty to AC in the early levels.

Elegance: 2.5 Having a minimally useful prereq feat (Ironheart Aura) sitting around for nine levels isn't exactly elegant. Like I said, prereqs are all but unavoidable, but a nine-level gap between investment and payoff is way too big to just let that go. (–0.25) (I'm also a little less than thrilled with the 15 levels between Persona Immersion and Cabinet Trickster, though at least Persona Immersion's base effect is reasonably okay, so it's not just taking up space for all those levels. I wish you'd mentioned why you care about it aside from it qualifying you for CT, though.)

You spent too many skill points at level 2. Changeling Rogue only gets 10 + INT at levels that offer a substitution, so you should only have 12 points to spend, not 14. (–0.25) You did underspend your skill points at level 16+ (since your INT went up to the next notch then), but the fact remains that you overspent, and I have to penalize for that. Also, next time you use Skilled City Dweller to take Tumble or something similar, mention it somewhere. I won't penalize, because your sources did indicate to me where you got Tumble as a Thunder Guide class skill from, but it should not have been my job to figure that out on my own.

I don't see any cleverly aligned prereqs, nor do I see any elegant ways of covering weaknesses. Your first five levels are reasonable enough (Changeling Rogue is a classic starter, and Warblade is one of the best full-BAB classes, so they make a reasonable base to build off of), but you still aren't really doing anything especially elegant with them. Warblade with no good physical stats is kind of out there, really. I'm just not seeing anything here that makes me say “yeah, that's pretty elegant.”

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.5 I have to ask that question that every Iron Chef entrant hates to hear: It's very nice, but what does it DO? The only Thunder Guide thing you really focused on was proficiency with the Xen'drik boomerang, but if I understand your intentions with your wacky Aptitude shenanigans properly, you didn't actually try to take advantage of the unique portions of Xen'drik Boomerang Expert (the increased range increment and the ability to automatically catch a returning boomerang), since you tried to shuffle Boomerang Daze onto a melee weapon! In other words, you just used the proficiency, which you could have gotten from a level of Fighter or from just taking EWP, without using one of the only unique tricks that Thunder Guide gets. Sad. You don't have any ranks in Ride, and you have hardly any ranks in STR-based skills, so you can't really take advantage of Rescue Artist, which is one of the other only unique tricks that the SI has. You eventually used Cabinet Trickster to pick up enough Perform (Oratory) to use Lionized in the Press, which I appreciate, but like everything else you got with Cabinet Trickster, it's really too late to matter.

Aside from your half-hearted semi-use of Xen'drik Boomerang Expert, your other Thunder Lore choices don't make a ton of sense. Why have Breath of Shargon with a mere 3 ranks in Swim? Do you really feel like 5 ranks each in Hide/MS (and no Darkstalker, HiPS, on-demand concealment, or other stealthy tricks) is enough to make Ghost of Xen'drik useful? Do your melee attacks have enough oomph that Vicious Barbarism will ever trigger? I just don't see you putting in any effort to actually use the class's abilities. Sure, they may just be small bonuses, but you're not even doing anything to take advantage of those small bonuses. You're just letting them sit there, and they don't do you any good at all.

Overall, you just didn't sell me on why you wanted to be a Thunder Guide. Sure, what the class gives you isn't really anything spectacular, but you pretty much ignored everything it actually did give you. About the only thing you did with it was keep some skills up at a decent level, and you could have done that better by just taking more levels in Rogue. (–1.5)

Final Thoughts: I'm not sure what you're trying to do with this build. Even if we accept your dubious premise that Weapon Aptitude lets you use Boomerang Daze with melee weapons, you don't have enough melee oomph to make it actually matter. You claim to be a melee character, but you've got terrible physical stats and nothing to really cover the weakness. You're a Cabinet Trickster with 10 CHA, and I don't understand how Cabinet Trickster meshes with Thunder Guide, either in fluff or in crunch. The best part of this build was the little vignette at the beginning (and it didn't exactly rock my socks off), but since I'm not directly grading on fluff, I can't really give you any points for that.

Total Score: 9.25

Azrael

Nothing terribly special to say about this one, so let's just dive right in.

Originality: 3.0 Marshal actually makes a fair bit of sense for a Thunder Guide, so I'm a little surprised to see that we only had one of them. That works in your favor, though—I didn't actually predict it ahead of time (my reaction is a retroactive “ah, that makes sense” and not “yup, I knew we'd see that one”), and we didn't get any other chefs with the same idea, so I can toss you some love there. (+0.25) Boomerang Daze is about the most obvious strategy to try to do with Thunder Guide's abilities (their increased aptitude with the Xen'drik boomerang is pretty much their only unique ability, after all), so I can't really reward you for that. (–0.25)

Power: 2.5 Ah, Boomerang Daze. It's the obvious thing to do with Thunder Guide's proficiency with boomerangs, right? But there's a hole in your plan, I'm afraid. You aren't Link—boomerangs only come back to you if they miss their target, not if they hit. (ECS pg. 119 is quite clear about this.) This means that you need lots of boomerangs, and you need a way of getting them into your hands (in other words, Quick Draw). You also don't have Precise Shot, which is absolutely critical for anyone making ranged attacks in 3.5—eating a –4 on nearly every attack just plain sucks, though at least that might actually make the boomerang miss, so you can use it again. I'm forced to conclude that your boomerang tricks aren't nearly as effective as you want them to be—it's a real shame, because you spent a fair amount of build resources trying to use them, but you missed a few really, really critical elements. (–0.5) You do, at least, have some bare minimum competence with melee weapons (decent STR and Power Attack, if nothing else), but not enough for me to really reward you for it. I really wanted to give you more credit for your boomerang tricks, but without the ability to throw more than one a turn and without the ability to avoid the penalty for throwing into melee, I can't in good conscience hand out any points. (I might have reconsidered if you told me that you expected to only be throwing one a round, indicating to me that you know how these things work, but from your description, I'm forced to conclude that it's an oversight.)

Assassin's Stance is confusing to me. You're fighting at range, not in melee, which means that you can't rely on flanking to get Sneak Attack. Your initiative is okay (but not great—Motivate Dexterity helps, but with 10 DEX, you're still fundamentally adding only one stat to your initiative, so you're not better off than someone with good DEX), but aside from going first and catching them flat-footed, I don't see how you're planning on denying your target their DEX and getting Sneak Attack. (Remember, a dazed character takes no penalty to defenses—you need stunned for that.) I don't see any Hide ranks, I don't see any way of getting a Grease-style effect to force balancing, and I don't see any other tricks that deny DEX. While there is some value in having Shadow Jaunt in your back pocket, it seems like you're spending two feats to get +2d6 to a mere one attack per encounter, and that doesn't impress me, especially at ECL 18. (–0.25)

You are handy with skills, at least. Marshal auras are always good fun (who doesn't love double-dipping on Charisma?), and Exemplar is a good way of saying “everyone chill out, I've got these skills covered.” The two combine nicely to let you help your party quite a bit as well, so I like what I'm seeing in the skill department. (+0.25)

Elegance: 3.25 I'm always a fan of elegant ways of meeting prereqs, so using the Skill Focus you got for free from Marshal to qualify for Exemplar gets you a thumbs up from me. (+0.25)

Two levels in Paladin is a respectable dip if you can handle the Code—you might have been better off taking two levels of Fighter to get Precise Shot, but I already got you for that in Power, and there's nothing inelegant about two levels of Paladin. Of course, you have to maintain an Exalted alignment anyway, thanks to your Nymph's Kiss, so you should be able to handle the Code. You don't seem to get a ton out of it other than +CHA to your saves (Smite 1/day is lame, and Lay on Hands isn't much with only two levels in Paladin), but hey, you could do worse than having good saves.

I don't see anything that elegantly covers a weakness, really. Exotic Weapon Master is okay so far as it goes (though as we discussed in Power, your boomerangs don't work the way you think they do), but beyond that, I don't see anything amazingly elegant. I don't see much that's awfully inelegant either, though, so you mostly come out okay.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.75 Well, at least you tried to use the unique parts of Xen'drik Boomerang Expert, even if some details got in the way. So I appreciate that. Your other Thunder Lore choices weren't amazing—you claim to fight at range, so Vicious Barbarism isn't that useful to you; you have very few ranks in Swim, so Breath of Shargon is of limited use to you; I appreciate you putting on your game face and telling me that Eye of the Chamber is worth something, but you and I both know that a standard action for a +1 bonus is really not worthwhile, pretty much ever (unless you can somehow reliably use it before combat starts, like in an ambush). You don't have enough Ride or enough STR-based skills to really use Rescue Artist, which is a little disappointing. I do think I have to dock you at least a little bit for that. (–0.25)

Overall, at least you're trying. You made a good-faith effort to use at least one of the SI's unique abilities, which is (sadly) more than I can say for some of your fellow chefs. I wish you'd set things up so that you could take advantage of more of them, though. You made the gamble of starting with very frontloaded classes, so it's not like it would have been automatically better to take more levels in Marshal or more levels in Paladin, so at least you partially address the “why aren't you just more of your base classes?” question. I'm still not unshakably convinced that Thunder Guide is the best choice for this character, but I can tell that you at least put some thought into it, and it doesn't feel totally tacked on. (Still a little tacked on, of course—more Exemplar would have been better than the last few levels of Thunder Guide, once you meet the prereqs—but not totally so.) If there was something that you clearly did better than any non-Thunder Guide could do, I'd be a lot more impressed, but with this class, I'm at least happy that you tried.

Final Thoughts: Maybe you should have just used your boomerangs as improvised melee weapons. You'd take the same –4 that you do for lacking Precise Shot, but you'd actually keep them in your hands (so you'd only need one, and you could full attack with it), and you could have saved the feats you spent on Brutal Throw and Power Throw.

Total Score: 11.5

Word count: 10,404. Whee. Enjoy, everyone!

Venger

2015-02-14, 03:45 PM

All done reading. Thanks for judging, Zaq.

Deadasadoor

2015-02-14, 04:03 PM

Well that was an essay. At least it got judged quickly and won't need to go on for any longer than necessary. Shame about the low scores, but hey, this was a very poor ingredient. Still, congrats to anyone who did manage an entry.

The Viscount

2015-02-14, 04:06 PM

Accurate judgings, but that doesn't make it sting any less. This is like a round with Ponies in the old days. Thanks all the same, Zaq.

Venger

2015-02-14, 04:07 PM

rankings after one judge:

Kole Naerrin 15.0
Azrael 11.5
Al'ayn Q'tarmayn 10.75
The Speaker 9.25
Lord Professor Hexler 9.0
Noamuth, the Aberrant 8.75

Amphetryon

2015-02-14, 04:57 PM

I have no horse in this race, but I figure I'll ask a question I've asked before: What would an entry have needed to look like to get a 5 in Power, Elegance, and/or UoSI this round?

Troacctid

2015-02-14, 05:00 PM

5 in Power is easy, just don't use the secret ingredient. :smalltongue:

WhamBamSam

2015-02-14, 05:02 PM

Underground, you say?

Opens up Drow of the Underdark and Underdark

Prime Underdark Guide? It has casting, but that's independent of casting from previous levels.

Sea Mother Whip has full casting. Seems neet. Not great, but anything is better than the thunder guide.

Shadowcrafter? You get 10 DR at the end, could be worse.

Vermin Keeper. Please no. Please, PLEASE no.Sea Mother Whip is only 5 levels. Not impossible, but doesn't seem likely to me.

Shadowcrafter is a bit too good and sees semi-regular use in the "more real than reality" illusionist builds alongside Shadowcraft Mage. The DR is actually the least useful feature, since DR/magic stops being useful at a level well before you can finish the PrC.

I'm sort of worried that it's going to be Coiled Cabalist. I would like for it not to be, but I get the sense that it might be.

Underground probably means it's not Winterhaunt of Iborighu, which is the full casting PrC I've heard the most clamoring for.

Divine Prankster maybe? It'd fit in with the gnome thing and is at least fun from a fluff perspective.

Venger

2015-02-14, 05:34 PM

Sea Mother Whip is only 5 levels. Not impossible, but doesn't seem likely to me.

Shadowcrafter is a bit too good and sees semi-regular use in the "more real than reality" illusionist builds alongside Shadowcraft Mage. The DR is actually the least useful feature, since DR/magic stops being useful at a level well before you can finish the PrC.

I'm sort of worried that it's going to be Coiled Cabalist. I would like for it not to be, but I get the sense that it might be.

Underground probably means it's not Winterhaunt of Iborighu, which is the full casting PrC I've heard the most clamoring for.

Divine Prankster maybe? It'd fit in with the gnome thing and is at least fun from a fluff perspective.

More importantly, kuo-toa have a pretty heinous ECL.

My thoughts as well on shadowcrafter.

I skimmed through a list of prcs and don't see anything else especially obvious. I'd considered verdant lord, being nature-themed but not specifically underground. but you're right, it's probably divine prankster .

Chronos

2015-02-14, 05:50 PM

Quoth Amphetryon:

I have no horse in this race, but I figure I'll ask a question I've asked before: What would an entry have needed to look like to get a 5 in Power, Elegance, and/or UoSI this round?
With this secret ingredient? I'm not sure it's possible. But that's OK, because we're all stuck with it, so it's a level playing field.

Venger

2015-02-14, 05:55 PM

With this secret ingredient? I'm not sure it's possible. But that's OK, because we're all stuck with it, so it's a level playing field.

well, it should always be possible, otherwise the rubric is false. It might not be practical, but some kind of ideal has to exist.

Heliomance

2015-02-14, 06:16 PM

Yare, yare. The judging is controversial this round. A note: I'm sure I've said this before, but if you want to send me a dispute, put the build's name in your post. Don't make me trawl through my inbox to work out which build you sent me.

zaq awarded too many points to kole naerrin. he got perfect marks in originality purely on the merit of backstory, while other dishes had to justify themselves with mechanical innovation to gain (or in all the rest of their cases lose) points.

a purely fluff bonus because the mechanics are nothing original is fine, but 2 whole points?

zaq acknowledges that kole is completely helpless in combat, but he still walks away with a 3.5 in power?

kole takes a huge number of garbage feats (deceitful? negotiator?) and not only is he not penalized, he is actively rewarded.

everything he does mechanically comes from his spymaster levels and yet he walks away with a 4 in uotsi?

no justification is provided for such a high score in the category, just a bunch of sentences saying "thunder guide" a lot.

the content expressed basically says "because I liked your fluff, you should get really high marks here too," which isn't fair since the other dishes had to gain (or again, in the rest of their cases lose) points in uotsi based on how well they used the ingredient, not how good their backstory was

For the most part I find your criticisms accurate, there are a few things I want to address.

I understand your criticisms of Boomerang Daze as the obvious choice, and the problem with drawing Xen'drik boomerangs, but you seem overly dismissive of the strategy. Lack of Precise shot is certainly irritating, but I don't feel it's as incapacitating as you make it out to be. In the first round, an enemy isn't very likely to already be engaged in melee, in which case the penalty doesn't apply. As for following rounds, the bonus from flanking, steady hand, and eye of the chamber completely negate it. While two levels of fighter would have given me these feats as you say, the benefit is minor, and I preferred the paladin as it fits better with the heroic adventurer, and supports the high Cha for Exemplar and Marshal.

While one does need more than a few boomerangs, they're extremely cheap. As for drawing them, I should have laid that out, since it clearly wasn't apparent. Boomerang Daze has a DC based on damage dealt, which is why focus went into maximizing damage to ensure dazing will happen frequently. Assassin's stance is a constant boost to damage, and its application is where I failed to explain. It will indeed apply on the first round, but following rounds it will still work. Yes, boomerangs work at range, but you incorrectly discount flanking in melee, which is precisely what the level of Exotic Weapon Master is for. Close Quarters Combat removes AoOs from attacking within reach, which means you can fight in melee range, and when the target doesn't move (due to being stunned) you can set up more easily to flank following rounds. It's a simple matter of holding a weapon in your off hand or wearing armor spikes to threaten, and then you can apply SA to further boomerang attacks. Shadow Jaunt doesn't just qualify for Assassin's Stance, it's for positioning for flanking. The opponent is denied any action when dazed, so you can simply draw and attack every round, or potentially attack and draw on one round, then attack and finish iteratives with spikes (if it doesn't count as TWFing).

Eye of the Chamber's standard action does mean it's not an every encounter tactic, but the fact that you can wait an hour between spotting and engaging (especially with high spot mod and taking 10 from mastery) and the fact that there is no in-combat duration for the bonus makes it certainly worth considering.

Originality: Glad you liked the fluff. You say that Boomerang Daze is obvious, but Azrael and I were the only ones to use it. It is indeed the only worthwhile mechanical thing the SI gives, so why am I being penalized for using it?

Power: As Azrael has said, the lack of Precise Shot doesn’t make Boomerang Daze wholly worthless. Daze is still a difficult condition to mitigate and helps a lot in combat.

Aptitude says it can take weapon-specific feats and apply them to any weapon any time you have an hour to yourself. There isn’t much else to say about it: pick different weapons and make it a (great sword) daze or a (longspear) daze or what have you. I can’t really even call it a “trick” since this is literally all warblade’s weapon aptitude ability actually does.

While I understand your criticism of taking the staid base class 5/si 10/ other stuff 5 approach delaying cabinet trickster to 16-20, can you honestly say I wouldn’t have fared worse by moving my cabinet trickster levels earlier? If I’d taken them as soon as I could qualify, I would’ve simply been criticized for putting off entry to the SI too long and lost points in UotSI. It’s a sort of damned if you do damned if you don’t scenario. Change shape will be largely for utility.

Reach is one way to gather AoOs to harvest for stormguard warrior. Past experience has taught me never to mention equipment in Iron Chef, lest I lose points for being “item-dependent.”

Since Boomerang Daze can be shunted to any weapon, I didn’t think it was wise to list weapons.

You gush about Kole’s use of changeling rogue, but I do not seem to enjoy the same benefit. I have almost the same breadth, versatility, and numbers, in addition to being less helpless in combat.

I don’t need ranks in swim because of cabinet trickster and racial emulation. I can get aquatic subtypes and swim speeds

Elegance: As explained earlier, using the 5/10/5 formula was to forestall a worse score in UotSI. Due to prereqs, they’re the only place feats would have space to be slotted in.

My apologies about skilled city dweller. My intent was neither to confuse you nor to make your job more difficult. I use it in almost every iron chef and have never had a complaint about it, but I will be more explicit in the future.

UotSI: If I had taken a level of fighter and/or EWP, you surely would have penalized me in power, elegance, and/or originality. Boomerang is the best feature the SI offers, so of course I made use of it. Using warblade’s aptitude is a unique feature to my dish, scaffolding on something the SI gives.

I have no way to make use of mounted combat, so Ride would not do anything. As addressed earlier, I turned Ride into Tumble, a much better skill.

As you mentioned before the reveal of the ingredients somewhere upthread, you pick the abilities you want best first and work your way down. The pickings are relatively slim, so I just worked my way down. Holding your breath actually does something instead of just giving a situational bonus.

My focus is not primarily on stealth. As you noted, I have little sneak attack. The SI does not give hide or MS, so focusing on them would be a waste, and I have no real room for darkstalker, so I never claim to be a skulk.

Sian

2015-02-14, 06:43 PM

while it doesn't quite reach full casting, Iron Mind is deliciously terrible (but probably to dull)

Venger

2015-02-14, 06:53 PM

while it doesn't quite reach full casting, Iron Mind is deliciously terrible (but probably to dull)

that's a distinct possibility, but it is pretty blah. I'd rather tool around with either elocator or divine prankster, personally

Heliomance

2015-02-14, 07:34 PM

No-one's mentioned the next SI yet. In fact, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere except when I've Googled it specifically, aside from the original source.

The Viscount

2015-02-14, 07:47 PM

Venger

2015-02-14, 08:03 PM

WhamBamSam

2015-02-15, 03:05 AM

As for engaging in our speculation, I would personally love Elocator, it's like Tactical Soldier, only not the worst.

I'd have fun with Arachnomancer, but nobody would have fun with Shameful Blade of Heironeous.

Bayushi Deceiver is tons of fun, Cloud Anchorite is puzzlingly difficult, and Doomlord is stupid but interesting (it's reminiscent of Cipher Adept because its form the same book).

My first thought for this next SI is Alienist, but that can't be it....Even Shining Blade will have more to work with by way of class features than Thunder Guide. I've actually got my build all stubbed out for when Heliomance inevitably decides to stick us with that one, and I like it pretty well. It'd be better with something else of course, but it doesn't do too badly with Shining Blade, and justifies the presence of the class, I'd say.

After fooling around with it a bit tonight however, Beast Heart Adept has jumped to the top of my list of SIs I want.

I almost want to guess one of the Scion PrCs from UA, because of the underground hint, but they have this whole weird "build your own prereqs" thing which doesn't really work for Iron Chef. I'm gonna guess that Venger's probably right and it's something buried in some adventure module or something. Probably not Doomdreamer though. It's only 5 levels long and looks halfway decent to me. Also it forces everyone's builds to be too similar, since it only advances Cleric. Not a good SI candidate.

Amphetryon

2015-02-15, 06:15 AM

Even Shining Blade will have more to work with by way of class features than Thunder Guide. I've actually got my build all stubbed out for when Heliomance inevitably decides to stick us with that one, and I like it pretty well. It'd be better with something else of course, but it doesn't do too badly with Shining Blade, and justifies the presence of the class, I'd say.

After fooling around with it a bit tonight however, Beast Heart Adept has jumped to the top of my list of SIs I want.

I almost want to guess one of the Scion PrCs from UA, because of the underground hint, but they have this whole weird "build your own prereqs" thing which doesn't really work for Iron Chef. I'm gonna guess that Venger's probably right and it's something buried in some adventure module or something. Probably not Doomdreamer though. It's only 5 levels long and looks halfway decent to me. Also it forces everyone's builds to be too similar, since it only advances Cleric. Not a good SI candidate.

I thought it might be Solar Channeler, but that's not full casting.

arclance

2015-02-15, 09:37 AM

Al'ayn Q'tarmayn

I feel like I'm missing a reference here, but who knows, that may end up working in your favor. Let's get started.

His name is referencing Allan Quatermain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Quatermain).
I don't remember if the fluff does as well.

Venger

2015-02-15, 11:37 AM

His name is referencing Allan Quatermain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Quatermain).
I don't remember if the fluff does as well.

His fluff loosely references Quartermain's basic backstory, but is couched more on the "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" film rather than the original novel series or comic.

Zaq

2015-02-15, 01:17 PM

I knew there'd be a dispute or three. No rest for the wicked, it seems. I did try to explain myself as best as I could, which is why I spent 10,000 words on this endeavor, but hopefully I can explain myself a little more here.

zaq awarded too many points to kole naerrin. he got perfect marks in originality purely on the merit of backstory, while other dishes had to justify themselves with mechanical innovation to gain (or in all the rest of their cases lose) points.

a purely fluff bonus because the mechanics are nothing original is fine, but 2 whole points?

zaq acknowledges that kole is completely helpless in combat, but he still walks away with a 3.5 in power?

kole takes a huge number of garbage feats (deceitful? negotiator?) and not only is he not penalized, he is actively rewarded.

everything he does mechanically comes from his spymaster levels and yet he walks away with a 4 in uotsi?

no justification is provided for such a high score in the category, just a bunch of sentences saying "thunder guide" a lot.

the content expressed basically says "because I liked your fluff, you should get really high marks here too," which isn't fair since the other dishes had to gain (or again, in the rest of their cases lose) points in uotsi based on how well they used the ingredient, not how good their backstory was

You're looking at it wrong, my friend. I'm not impressed with Kole's backstory. I'm impressed with Kole's premise. There's a very big difference. Kole had the audacity to turn the entire concept of the Thunder Guide on its ear. He had very little backstory itself, and that's not what I graded him on. Everyone else was trying to make a Thunder Guide into a valuable character, but Kole went in another direction, and tried to merely make the appearance of a Thunder Guide a valuable character. Everyone else tried to do something and failed; Kole succeeded at everything he actually attempted to do, and he brought enough out-of-combat tricks to the table to convince me that he wouldn't necessarily have to do what he didn't try to do. That is why I scored him as high as I did. He left me totally gobsmacked with his premise, and he managed to bring in a character that fundamentally shifts the expectations of how the game is played. I graded him on what he was, not on what he wasn't. Even Deceitful and Negotiator had reasons to be there—as I said in my actual judgment, those are junk feats when taken on a character who's trying to do something useful in combat, but when taken on a character who actively avoids combat specifically by means of the skills that those feats boost, the feats are actually making his main trick stronger rather than weaker, which is something you don't see every day.

I wasn't intending to make the point disparity between Kole and the rest of the pack so large, but when I added up the points, I felt like everyone earned what they earned.

For the most part I find your criticisms accurate, there are a few things I want to address.

I understand your criticisms of Boomerang Daze as the obvious choice, and the problem with drawing Xen'drik boomerangs, but you seem overly dismissive of the strategy. Lack of Precise shot is certainly irritating, but I don't feel it's as incapacitating as you make it out to be. In the first round, an enemy isn't very likely to already be engaged in melee, in which case the penalty doesn't apply. As for following rounds, the bonus from flanking, steady hand, and eye of the chamber completely negate it. While two levels of fighter would have given me these feats as you say, the benefit is minor, and I preferred the paladin as it fits better with the heroic adventurer, and supports the high Cha for Exemplar and Marshal.

While one does need more than a few boomerangs, they're extremely cheap. As for drawing them, I should have laid that out, since it clearly wasn't apparent. Boomerang Daze has a DC based on damage dealt, which is why focus went into maximizing damage to ensure dazing will happen frequently. Assassin's stance is a constant boost to damage, and its application is where I failed to explain. It will indeed apply on the first round, but following rounds it will still work. Yes, boomerangs work at range, but you incorrectly discount flanking in melee, which is precisely what the level of Exotic Weapon Master is for. Close Quarters Combat removes AoOs from attacking within reach, which means you can fight in melee range, and when the target doesn't move (due to being stunned) you can set up more easily to flank following rounds. It's a simple matter of holding a weapon in your off hand or wearing armor spikes to threaten, and then you can apply SA to further boomerang attacks. Shadow Jaunt doesn't just qualify for Assassin's Stance, it's for positioning for flanking. The opponent is denied any action when dazed, so you can simply draw and attack every round, or potentially attack and draw on one round, then attack and finish iteratives with spikes (if it doesn't count as TWFing).

Eye of the Chamber's standard action does mean it's not an every encounter tactic, but the fact that you can wait an hour between spotting and engaging (especially with high spot mod and taking 10 from mastery) and the fact that there is no in-combat duration for the bonus makes it certainly worth considering.

I see what you're saying, but I'm afraid I judged the way I did for a reason. Regarding Quick Draw, the ability to make more than one attack per round is pretty much absolutely critical to anyone who wants to make attack rolls as part of their main strategy (with the exception of certain ToB characters). Before your iteratives come online, Quick Draw is pretty much just a luxury on a ranged character (who doesn't need to move as much as a melee character), but once your numbers are high enough to make multiple attacks a round, the inability to do so places a very hard cap on how useful you can actually be. (There's a reason that we sneer at the Soulknife's Psychic Strike ability, and why Scouts aren't considered useful at high levels unless they get Pounce, Travel Devotion, or Greater Manyshot.)

Regarding your argument about flanking, the rules don't bear you out. Pg. 153 of the PHB specifies "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent's opposite border or opposite corner." (Emphasis added.) No matter whether you're throwing a boomerang from 30 ft away or from right up in their grill, unless it's a melee attack, flanking doesn't apply. (Even if the rules did work in your favor, this is 100% exactly what I meant in my criteria when I told you to explain everything to me. There wasn't anything in your strategy about getting up close and trying to flank people, and that's not a strategy that most ranged-heavy characters would try to do, so I wasn't about to assume that you were going to do that.)

Precise Shot is still a necessity. Remember that the bonuses you're saying offset the penalty would still apply even if you had Precise Shot. Let's pretend that flanking works (it doesn't) and that Eye of the Chamber is better than spending an action attacking (it isn't)—say that your attack bonus without anything else is, I dunno, +10. It's not the difference between attacking at +10 (total with Precise Shot) and +10 (–4 for firing into melee, +4 for flanking/Steady Hand/EotC). It's the difference between attacking at +14 (no penalty for firing into melee, +4 for flanking/etc.) and +10 (–4 for firing into melee, +4 for misc.). Those bonuses would apply with or without Precise Shot—they're not mutually exclusive, and a –4 to hit is the equivalent of attacking with a nonproficient weapon. I suppose you have a point that you might not eat the Precise Shot penalty on your first attack each encounter, but as I said about your Sneak Attack, while the first attack each encounter matters, so do all the subsequent attacks. No score change.

Originality: Glad you liked the fluff. You say that Boomerang Daze is obvious, but Azrael and I were the only ones to use it. It is indeed the only worthwhile mechanical thing the SI gives, so why am I being penalized for using it?

Power: As Azrael has said, the lack of Precise Shot doesn’t make Boomerang Daze wholly worthless. Daze is still a difficult condition to mitigate and helps a lot in combat.

Aptitude says it can take weapon-specific feats and apply them to any weapon any time you have an hour to yourself. There isn’t much else to say about it: pick different weapons and make it a (great sword) daze or a (longspear) daze or what have you. I can’t really even call it a “trick” since this is literally all warblade’s weapon aptitude ability actually does.

While I understand your criticism of taking the staid base class 5/si 10/ other stuff 5 approach delaying cabinet trickster to 16-20, can you honestly say I wouldn’t have fared worse by moving my cabinet trickster levels earlier? If I’d taken them as soon as I could qualify, I would’ve simply been criticized for putting off entry to the SI too long and lost points in UotSI. It’s a sort of damned if you do damned if you don’t scenario. Change shape will be largely for utility.

Reach is one way to gather AoOs to harvest for stormguard warrior. Past experience has taught me never to mention equipment in Iron Chef, lest I lose points for being “item-dependent.”

Since Boomerang Daze can be shunted to any weapon, I didn’t think it was wise to list weapons.

You gush about Kole’s use of changeling rogue, but I do not seem to enjoy the same benefit. I have almost the same breadth, versatility, and numbers, in addition to being less helpless in combat.

I don’t need ranks in swim because of cabinet trickster and racial emulation. I can get aquatic subtypes and swim speeds

Elegance: As explained earlier, using the 5/10/5 formula was to forestall a worse score in UotSI. Due to prereqs, they’re the only place feats would have space to be slotted in.

My apologies about skilled city dweller. My intent was neither to confuse you nor to make your job more difficult. I use it in almost every iron chef and have never had a complaint about it, but I will be more explicit in the future.

UotSI: If I had taken a level of fighter and/or EWP, you surely would have penalized me in power, elegance, and/or originality. Boomerang is the best feature the SI offers, so of course I made use of it. Using warblade’s aptitude is a unique feature to my dish, scaffolding on something the SI gives.

I have no way to make use of mounted combat, so Ride would not do anything. As addressed earlier, I turned Ride into Tumble, a much better skill.

As you mentioned before the reveal of the ingredients somewhere upthread, you pick the abilities you want best first and work your way down. The pickings are relatively slim, so I just worked my way down. Holding your breath actually does something instead of just giving a situational bonus.

My focus is not primarily on stealth. As you noted, I have little sneak attack. The SI does not give hide or MS, so focusing on them would be a waste, and I have no real room for darkstalker, so I never claim to be a skulk.

I penalized for Boomerang Daze because it's what I expected everyone to do with the Secret Ingredient. It was literally the first trick I thought of when I was reading the class trying to cook up my own entry. I didn't dock you in Power or Elegance because I expected Boomerang Daze, but when I expect a given build element to be common, and two chefs bring that build element to the table, I don't see how that can possibly be worth points in Originality.

Using Aptitude with Boomerang Daze is dubious because Aptitude is, like much of ToB, clumsily worded. I've played under GMs who argue that Aptitude only applies to feats that require you to choose a specific weapon, like Weapon Focus or Improved Critical, and not to feats that themselves specify a single weapon, like Boomerang Daze. I'm kind of sympathetic to those arguments myself. You will notice, however, that I graded you mostly with the assumption that your Aptitude shenanigans are legal, so it's not like I said "your main combo is illegal, –2 points." I maintain that even if your Aptitude shenanigans are legal, you don't have the power to make them really work. 10 STR on a melee character is not something that you can just ignore, and while a couple of your maneuvers give you bonuses to hit (for a single attack, which is not good at the later levels), they don't give you bonuses to damage, which is what Boomerang Daze requires. Also, as I said, your Aptitude shenanigans mean that you're not using the unique part of Xen'drik Boomerang Expert. Anyone can get proficiency with a Xen'drik boomerang and take Boomerang Daze, but only a Thunder Guide can use those boomerangs with a 30 ft range increment and automatically catch the ones that miss. By turning Boomerang Daze into a melee ability, you're ignoring the Thunder Guide-specific tricks, which cost you in UoSI.

Regarding your comment on reach weapons, I can't speak for other judges, but I don't consider it poor form to mention what nonmagical gear you use. (You will notice that in my criteria I specify that I don't want you relying on magic items.) I want you to stay away from relying on specific magical items, but saying "I fight with a guisarme" or "I wear the best light armor I can afford, whether that's a chain shirt or a mithral breastplate" is a totally reasonable thing to do. Even if you didn't want to specify a reach weapon, though, I listed nine separate ways you might have generated AoOs, and you didn't tell me how you could take advantage of any of them. I'm not going to read tactics into your build that aren't there, so if you don't tell me that you're fighting with a reach weapon, I'm assuming that you're not fighting with a reach weapon. You didn't show me any ways of generating AoOs, so I'm left to conclude that you're relying on the GM being stupid, which I don't consider to be a sound strategy.

Regarding Cabinet Trickster, you will notice that I did not take away any points for it being too little too late. I don't feel like it gives you enough power to earn any points, but neither did I penalize you for taking it. I can't say for certain how I would have graded if you put the CT levels earlier—I judged your build as it was, not every permutation of what it might have been. Balancing Power, Elegance, and UoSI is always tricky, especially when dealing with classes that have the possibility of overshadowing the SI. There's no one-size-fits-all answer, and that's probably a good thing, even if it's a little frustrating. I strongly doubt that putting Cabinet Trickster earlier would have caused me to put your Power lower, but I can't say for certain if it would have ended up higher. Doing that may or may not have impacted your UoSI—your score in UoSI mostly stemmed from me not being convinced that you really used Thunder Guide's abilities in any meaningful way, and that may or may not have been exacerbated by putting it later. I'm not going to go into a full new judgment about a different theoretical build that doesn't even really exist. But it's always work to balance Power/Elegance/UoSI, and there isn't always a right answer. I judged the build as I saw it.

Michael7123

2015-02-15, 01:43 PM

How many more judges are we waiting for at this point?

Venger

2015-02-15, 02:28 PM

How many more judges are we waiting for at this point?

I think it was just Zaq.

Heliomance, is the next SI halfling whistler?

Thurbane

2015-02-15, 02:55 PM

I'd wish for Elemental Warrior (PlH), but it's only 5 levels.

Instead, I'll cast my wish for Dragon Samurai (MH).

WhamBamSam

2015-02-15, 03:04 PM

I think it was just Zaq.

Heliomance, is the next SI halfling whistler?Halfling Whisperer has a pretty good chassis to go along with its full casting, and its class features don't seem bad enough.

Dwarven Chanter, from a similar part of the web archive looks plausible though.

EDIT: On Reflection, Dwarven Chanter has a similarly good chassis, though it's class features are certainly worse (seriously, what does Trance even actually do from a mechanical standpoint?).

Heliomance

2015-02-15, 03:50 PM

How many more judges are we waiting for at this point?

Ponies is working on it.

Another dispute!

zaq, I know the professor is not a great build, or a fully integrated build when it comes to the secret ingredient.

Firstly I apologise for the way I have written him, I am dyslexic and I often forget grammar.

the only dispute I have is with the use of secret ingredient. everything you say is correct.
however, I do ask that you reconsider your marking a little bit, I came up with the idea after (for the first time) reading eberron lore, then thunder guide.
The mixture of a travelling man who helps and protects others made me think that he would gain a wealth of knowledge.
I wrote the main bit of back story before I even had my build stub.
The second part that justifies the rest of my 10 levels was written after the build stub.
The reason I took thunder guide so late is the section in its fluff about being a seasoned veteran and being able to defend yourself well before you can join them, also that I decided after thunder guide he would retire and become the professor, otherwise I would have taken it much sooner.
The whole idea of the character came from a spark from reading fluff of the ingredient and the way of life a thunder guide might have.
I believe that warrants a slightly higher mark then what you gave. The whole build was based around the story I made of his life, not mechanics.
But you are the judge. I will accept whatever you decide.

Venger

2015-02-15, 04:19 PM

Halfling Whisperer has a pretty good chassis to go along with its full casting, and its class features don't seem bad enough.

Dwarven Chanter, from a similar part of the web archive looks plausible though.

EDIT: On Reflection, Dwarven Chanter has a similarly good chassis, though it's class features are certainly worse (seriously, what does Trance even actually do from a mechanical standpoint?).

props to you, I've never even heard of this class before.

Trance does do something mechanically, the thing is it's nothing good.

you meditate on the nature of the universe for 10 minutes and pick a thing to do.

then, every 4 hours, you threaten yourself with 1d4 con damage unless you make an ever-increasing save and hypnotize yourself to do one specific repetitive task until a post-hypnotic suggestion snaps you out of it.

the best (read: worst) part is unless that thing happens, you're trapped in a loop. so if you said "clean the apartment until my friend gets home" and he got held up in traffic or was kidnapped by pirates or something, you're just trapped that way forever.

If you reach 0 con, you die.

my favorite part of this is that you could just continuously do whatever task already in D&D. this offers you no benefit at all.

I'd wish for Elemental Warrior (PlH), but it's only 5 levels.

Instead, I'll cast my wish for Dragon Samurai (MH).

yikes, dragon samurai. that would be a painful ingredient.

Zaq

2015-02-15, 04:21 PM

zaq, I know the professor is not a great build, or a fully integrated build when it comes to the secret ingredient.

Firstly I apologise for the way I have written him, I am dyslexic and I often forget grammar.

the only dispute I have is with the use of secret ingredient. everything you say is correct.
however, I do ask that you reconsider your marking a little bit, I came up with the idea after (for the first time) reading eberron lore, then thunder guide.
The mixture of a travelling man who helps and protects others made me think that he would gain a wealth of knowledge.
I wrote the main bit of back story before I even had my build stub.
The second part that justifies the rest of my 10 levels was written after the build stub.
The reason I took thunder guide so late is the section in its fluff about being a seasoned veteran and being able to defend yourself well before you can join them, also that I decided after thunder guide he would retire and become the professor, otherwise I would have taken it much sooner.
The whole idea of the character came from a spark from reading fluff of the ingredient and the way of life a thunder guide might have.
I believe that warrants a slightly higher mark then what you gave. The whole build was based around the story I made of his life, not mechanics.
But you are the judge. I will accept whatever you decide.

This is kind of the problem that I had with Noamuth—fluff is an important part of the character, but without sturdy mechanics to back it up, it won't get you very far. I didn't get the impression from reading your strategy that you didn't feel ready to enter the SI until 11th level—I got the impression that you wanted to get your Factotum tricks on the field as soon as possible, and to hell with the SI. Ultimately, though, what really determined your score in UoSI was your admission that your sweet spot happened before you took your first level in Thunder Guide. While that's absolutely correct, it still doesn't indicate to me that you wanted to be a Thunder Guide; quite the opposite. The late entry didn't help your case, but it was your admission that your build was strongest without the SI, combined with the fact that you didn't really go out of your way to make any of the SI's features meaningful to you, that made me decide to grade you the way I did.

I do kind of appreciate the idea that your fame is built up before you take Thunder Guide, and Thunder Guide actually represents a retirement from adventuring life (thereby tacitly admitting that Thunder Guide doesn't actually give you strong abilities), but that wasn't sufficiently clear in your build itself to sway my judgment.

The Viscount

2015-02-15, 04:22 PM

Might it be a similar dwarf chanting class (deathwarden chanter) instead?

Chronos

2015-02-15, 06:35 PM

Troacctid

2015-02-15, 06:51 PM

I've seen threads about Halfling Whisperer here before, and it's actually a pretty strong class for everyone but rangers (the apparent intended entries). I don't think we'd see something that useful as a Secret Ingredient.

Iron Chef isn't about cooking with bad ingredients. It's about cooking with unusual ingredients. Or it should be, anyway. I much prefer the rounds that are cool but esoteric, like Geomancer or Dungeon Lord or Zerth Cenobite, to the ones that just don't actually do anything, like Acolyte of the Ego or Thunder Guide.

WhamBamSam

2015-02-15, 07:01 PM

props to you, I've never even heard of this class before. I just happened upon it today while tracking down Halfling Whistler in the archive.

my favorite part of this is that you could just continuously do whatever task already in D&D. this offers you no benefit at all. This is what I was getting at. In the absence of any "boredom checks" or whatever to actually make it difficult to do repetitive tasks without risking a slow death by Con damage or a quick death by stabbing (though most adventurers would probably establish the latter as a possible way of triggering the end of their trance) it doesn't really have an upside. Maybe if it also explicitly did away with things like fatigue, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

yikes, dragon samurai. that would be a painful ingredient.Depends how you read the breath weapon damage stacking. The example of a half-dragon is not particularly edifying. For example, would a Dragon Shaman/DFA/Dragon/whatever add [class level]d8 every time they used a breath weapon of the same type, or only once per day? The RAI is probably the latter, awful way of doing it. The cheesier reading isn't all that great, but you can at least do lots of damage until you start running into things with resistance/immunity that you can't get through.

Might it be a similar dwarf chanting class (deathwarden chanter) instead?As chanting dwarves go, that's a considerable improvement.

Chronos

2015-02-15, 07:40 PM

Quoth Troacctid:

Iron Chef isn't about cooking with bad ingredients. It's about cooking with unusual ingredients. Or it should be, anyway. I much prefer the rounds that are cool but esoteric, like Geomancer or Dungeon Lord or Zerth Cenobite, to the ones that just don't actually do anything, like Acolyte of the Ego or Thunder Guide.
Sure, but I'm not sure that Halfling Whisperer is unusual enough to be interesting. How does a whisperer work? Mostly, it works like a full caster. The class has some nifty features, but most of what makes a character with that class what they are is whatever casting base class they had. Which is an issue with most full-casting-progression classes, really, unless they have really weird prerequisites or other limitations, or their additional features are actually more powerful than full casting.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-15, 10:46 PM

Hey folks, I'm done about 3/6. Just a heads up.

Amphetryon

2015-02-16, 07:31 AM

Sure, but I'm not sure that Halfling Whisperer is unusual enough to be interesting. How does a whisperer work? Mostly, it works like a full caster. The class has some nifty features, but most of what makes a character with that class what they are is whatever casting base class they had. Which is an issue with most full-casting-progression classes, really, unless they have really weird prerequisites or other limitations, or their additional features are actually more powerful than full casting.

Whistler. Halfling Whistler.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-16, 08:00 AM

Whistler. Halfling Whistler.

Son of this woman? http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2003/05/28/overbearing_mother-toe.jpg

Chronos

2015-02-16, 10:00 AM

Y'know, I actually double-checked before I posted to make sure I wasn't making that exact typo. Funny how you can repeatedly read what you think is there, rather than what actually is.

sakuuya

2015-02-16, 10:03 AM

Y'know, I actually double-checked before I posted to make sure I wasn't making that exact typo. Funny how you can repeatedly read what you think is there, rather than what actually is.

It could be worse! I repeatedly misread the prereqs for Slime Lord last round, for instance.

Chronos

2015-02-19, 10:58 PM

Just a bump so Ponies (and any other judges we might have; are there any?) don't forget about this.

OMG PONIES

2015-02-21, 08:28 AM

Just a bump so Ponies (and any other judges we might have; are there any?) don't forget about this.

Who are you? Where am I? What are the prerequisites for Dodge? :smallconfused:

4.5 out of 6 done. Busy today, but with the snow expected my way I may get a chance to complete tomorrow. Failing that, could I humbly request a one-day extension of the deadline so I could get judging in by Monday morning (US East Coast time)?

Zaq

2015-02-21, 11:33 AM

While I have no authority on the matter, in the interest of not being the only judge, I second Ponies's motion for an extension.

sakuuya

2015-02-21, 11:46 AM

Home Cooking could also use an extension for entries, so if both got extended, they'd still sync up! I also have no authority, but I like this plan.

Heliomance

2015-02-22, 04:40 AM

Happy to extend for the sake of having two judges and Ponies' work not going to waste. Home cooking is likely to need more than one more day though!

KrimsonNekros

2015-02-22, 05:09 AM

Extend them both a week for disputes here, and cooking on home cooking

OMG PONIES

2015-02-23, 09:25 AM

Happy to extend for the sake of having two judges and Ponies' work not going to waste. Home cooking is likely to need more than one more day though!

Thanks Heliomance!

Extend them both a week for disputes here, and cooking on home cooking

Nah, see, that's my trick; I get the deadline extended long enough to judge but not long enough for anyone to question me. :smalltongue: Hey, speaking of...

My Scores

Lord Al'ayn Q'tarmayn: 13 (3.25 average)Originality: 2 I got a sketch of Al'ayn, but aside from a quick homage to LXG I didn't really get a feel for him (0). Half-drow was a repeated race this time around, and even though it was only a splash fighter levels were used in the sample entry. Aside from that, the scout and dread commando levels were a welcomed addition that lent a military feel to the build (0). Nothing mechanically unique was at play here, as most of the key archery feats were in focus here. However, Precise Shot's omission is felt (-0.5). Unfortunately, this feels much like a cut and paste from the feats section of an archery handbook (-0.5).Power: 2.5 Continued advancement in scout outclasses Thunder Guide by providing increased skirmish and awesome class features like blindsense. Whether it's scout or more fighter levels, either one would give us some more much-needed feats. Lastly, this build was such a Swift Hunter in progress that the omission of ranger levels and the Swift Hunter feat felt like they were done simply to shoehorn in the SI (-0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). Some of the items you mentioned aren't too crazy, but it's the sheer number of items mentioned here that made me feel uncertain about letting this one skate away with full points. My main concern here is the lack of Precise Shot unless utilizing one specific bow. I know you're trying to go first, but you're still going to need to be useful in a bevy of situations in rounds 2 and beyond (0). Offensively, you fall short of your fourth iterative attack and the skirmish/sudden strike damage dealt is a bit outpaced (even with Hit and Run Tactics). Defensively, you've got a few small things going for you like +1 natural armor, but not a ton of tricks. In terms of utliity, you've got ranks in a few face skills but lack the CHA or tricks to make them truly useful (-0.5).Elegance: 5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements aside from maxing out Diplomacy (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). While you listed which class features were chosen, I would have appreciated some attention to making these class features work in unique ways with the rest of the build and highlighting those interactions for the judges (-0.5). Weirdly, the concept of Thunder Guides as tired old mercenaries actually worked for me (0.5).
Lord Professor Hexler: 13.5 (3.375 average)Originality: 2.5 While the beginning of the professor's backstory had a distinctly "Bilbo Baggins" vibe to it, by the end it actually felt a bit disjointed. I walked away knowing that Hexler was a monk who was too smart to be a monk, so he wandered around and then became a professor...but I wanted to get more of a glimpse into him (0). Humans are the bread & butter of the D&D world, but as I've stated before they'll never earn you a deduction. Your class selection was unique enough that it stood out from the crowd, though I would have loved to see a more original racial selection. Even still, you were the only monk/factotum and human has been designated as a "free space" in my judging rubric so you've earned full points here (0.5). Nothing mechanically unique was at play here (-0.5). Most things at play outside the SI were standard factotum handbook fare (-0.5).Power: 2.5 Monk 2 is a favored splash, and Factotum 8 gets you most of the class' juiciest abilities (0.5). You tout how frequently you can use Travel Devotion, but you can only use it 2/day (once from the feat and once from burning 2 of your 3 opportunistic piety uses for the day). You only have 3 spells/day from your arcane dilletante ability, and the cunning knowledge you mention for boosting skills will only work once per skill per day. The only "all day" part of a factotum is inspiration and cunning surge--two class features that receive the least mention (-0.5). While you don't list too many items, you talk a whole bunch about stat-boosting items, which don't come on the cheap (0). Offensively, you lack the number of attacks or bonus damage to contribute significantly (even with Decisive Strike). In terms of defense, your monk splash helps with AC and Invisible Fist. Utility is a factotum's strong suit, but you've painted yourself as far more versatile than you actually are (-0.5).Elegance: 5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements aside from maxing Diplomacy (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). None of the class features received any particular treatment in your write-up (-0.5). I dug the Bilbo Baggins vibe of the Professor, the aged adventurer who took the wanderer's mantle back up (0.5).
Lord Noamuth: 11.5 (2.875 average)Originality: 4 The hometown hunter seemed like a perfect fit for the Thunder Guides (0.5). Another half-drow makes its appearance. A pity, too, because I really liked the use of ranger and aberrant dragonmarks (0). Aberrant dragonmarks aren't used too frequently, and you definitely selected a few feats that had me book diving (0.5). You just couldn't stay away from the barbarian splash for Pounce, could you? Aside from that, this entry avoided the usual handbook fare (0).Power: 2 Ranger 4 is always a good breakpoint for the class, but I was confused about the inclusion of barbarian 2. Usually it's a 1-level splash to snag pounce…why the extra level here? (0). If you're calling something a "nova power" in the write-up itself, chances are that you're going to wind up with a deduction here. Outside of your whirling frenzy, your TWF pouncing routine is actually fairly weak (-0.5). I hate to take away points for this because you mention that the build functions without it, but it seems like the Aberrant functions at a greatly reduced capacity if you're playing with a DM who's unfriendly to Aberrant Dragonmarks (0). Offensively, you've got your four iterative attacks…but you're a TWFer so I expected more attacks than that. Bonus damage was a bit lagging. Defensively, you're lacking significant tricks without your aberrant dragonmark (and you were hard up when you had it). In terms of utility, you've got middling ranks in a few skills and an animal companion, but we were looking for a little more here (-0.5).Elegance: 2 Without the ability to qualify for Aberrant Dragonmark (see below), you're unable to qualify for Heir of Khyber (-0.5). To have an aberrant dragonmark, you must be a member of a dragonmarked race like humans or elves. The link provided for Eberron half-drow, though, states that they have drow blood instead of human or elven blood, so I don't believe you qualify for the feat (-0.5). I'm not really sure how I feel about the Eberron half-drow used, as the link provided wasn't an online source per se but a collection of cards listed in the article as only being available at conventions. Also, Champions of Ruin is a Forgotten Realms sourcebook, so we've got cross-setting material here (-0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). While some of the class features are mentioned, they don't receive any particular synergizing treatment in your write-up (-0.5). The hunter with a web of connections made sense as a Thunder Guide (0.5).
Lord Kole Naerrin: 14.5 (3.625 average)Originality: 4.5 I was waiting for someone to play the role of the writer himself, but nobody else snagged the premise but you. On top of that, you did it with grace and aplomb (0.5). Bard and Spymaster were great picks, but unfortunately you weren't the only changeling in this competition (or the only one to snag the racial sub levels in rogue). Because of that, I can't award full points here (0). I like that you actually focused in on low-level spells like Alibi and False Lie to really solidify your schtick. It doesn't hurt that you sent me book diving to even figure out what they did (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 2.5 Sneak attack lags significantly, but the changeling rogue dip was more for social skills than combat prowess. You're a social-focus bard who doesn't stick it out for 2 more levels to snag Suggestion as a class feature? That seems like a big miss here, as that's the bread and butter of most bards and especially one with a career like yours. Its absence will be felt so much that I can't say you surpass a similar bard chassis who holds on just a little bit longer. I do see it listed among your 2nd-level spells, but that gives you only 2/day after bonus spells, whereas staying with bard at least until level 6 would give you many more uses per day (and still afford the option to have it as a spell known) (-0.5). As a social skill user, your high modifiers continue all day long. Though it's not the primary focus of your build by any means, you've also got limited spellcasting as a bard. Some fantastic uses are mentioned in your write-up, but once you've burnt through all 9 of your spells in a day, you've got nothing but skill ranks and disguises to contribute. I get that this is the idea with Lord Kole, but the name of the game is building characters that are both interesting (which you've nailed) and competent adventurers (which we've missed) (0). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). With 2d6 sneak attack, a +13 BAB, and only +1 inspire courage, Kole isn't made to win any fights. He's got plenty of disguises, but once an enemy knows who they're fighting he's practically a sitting duck. Utility is where the build shines; it's not exclusive to social interaction alone as you've actually maxed out a Craft for a meager income and become a master forger. In Eberron, having the right paperwork in a pinch is always handy...I just wish that Kole had learned some real combat tricks along the way; for instance, Combat Panache seems right up his alley (-0.5).Elegance: 4 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The most common elegance error I see folks making in Iron Chef, round after round, is missing the requisite 4 ranks in Spellcraft to take Practiced Spellcaster. Additionally, without 4 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you don't qualify for Obtain Familiar (-0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements to max out Diplomacy and qualify for Spymaster (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). I really wanted to hear how you were going to uniquely amp up these class features to support your tricky storytelling, but I was disappointed to see a lack of any actual class feature synergy here (-0.5). I keep going back and forth on this on. On one hand, I love the "Good Will Hunting" vibe that Kole puts out--he knows all about Michaelangelo but can't tell you what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. On the other, I'm not sure how he'd pick up this knowledge in the first place (0).
Lord The Speaker: 14 (3.5 average)Originality: 4 I thought nobody could rival Kole's concept and then you bring me a nefarious twist on a big game hunter, taking down the most dangerous game? Me likey (0.5). Warblade levels fit right in here, and Cabinet Trickster is one of my all-time favorite PrCs despite its power issues. Unfortunately you weren't the only changeling in this competition (or the only one to snag the racial sub levels in rogue). Because of that, I can't award full points here (0). When I saw the boomerang proficiency, I hoped someone would go the Boomerang Daze route. Even though two of you did, I like how you blended it with Warblade Shenanigans to make it "Pick a Weapon Daze" instead (but see Elegance below) (0.5). As much as I hoped to see it, Boomerang Daze sprang to mind because it's all over charop suggestion forums; likewise with Emerald Razor. However, I loved the changeling shenanigans and love for the under-appreciated cabinet trickster so much that we'll call this a wash (0).Power: 3.5 This one stings. Rogue advancement would have given social skills and sneak attack progression, but the real miss is boosted Initiator Level and maneuvers from more Warblade. Especially on an INT-focused build, taking warblade to 7 later in the build could have snagged some great maneuvers as well as leveraging your INT in a few places for a "hunt smarter, not harder" vibe (-0.5). I go back and forth on this one. Your rogue and warblade levels give you great staying power with "always on" abilities and refreshable maneuvers. It's actually the late placement of Cabinet Trickster that makes this teeter. Detect Thoughts (and the subsequent thought tricks) become a bit of a nova power (and a low-DC nova at that) until they're finally locked in at will once you hit 20th level. Had that come to its fullness earlier (and with a way to boost DCs), you'd have a much more consistent power base throughout the day (0). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, Boomerang Daze can't be overrated. You pay the necessary attention to boosting save DCs via decent damage boosts like Stormguard Warrior, Sneak Attack, etc. Emerald Razor helps you make touch attacks, but you're still not boasting a large number of attacks. Boomerang Ricochet would have provided more offensive oomph than some other things like Rapid Counter, but it would have just been icing on the Boomerang Daze cake. Defensively, you've got wall of blades...but that's about it. In terms of utility, you shine between your skills and everyhing that Cabinet Trickster allows. Cabinet Trickster also adds enough combat oomph to make up for your lack of defense; who needs defense when you can shut down your opponents? Granted, you have low DCs on your thought tricks but they're a nice addition. Nice enough to snag you full points here (0.5).Elegance: 3 I hate to be this guy, but there's a story-based requisite for Cabinet Trickster that didn't come up. It could have been woven in nicely with the Cabinet of Faces using The Speaker's catches for shapechanging purposes, etc. It's minor enough that I don't want to cause a fuss by taking away points, though, so let's call it a wash (0). Since you haven't listed your Warblade stance selected, it's impossible to tell if you qualify for Ironheart Aura (and thus Stormguard Warrior as well). Granted, you could easily be taking Punishing Stance and thus qualifying, but you've got to let us judges know. Also, I'm assuming that instead of Sudden Counter you meant Rapid Counter for your Martial Study at level 15. If so, you qualify, but it's another point of confusion (0). There's already question about whether Weapon Aptitude applies to feats where you don't specifically designate a weapon (like Boomerang Daze, Lightning Maces, etc). I'm of the opinion that it does, but that's hotly contested on these boards and gaming tables alike. The problem here is the idea that Boomerang Daze and Weapon Aptitude "lets you chuck whatever you feel like," to use your words. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It's a great way to apply a daze effect to melee attacks, but you won't go chucking bastard swords without additional feat or item investment (-0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). You said it yourself; ten levels in Thunder Guide and combat is largely the same. I was excited to hear how it was all a set up for Cabinet Trickster synergy…but then you sold me on how fun Cabinet Trickster is (trust me, I agree) without giving me any ways it actually synergized with Thunder Guide (-0.5). I can't give you enough points for your concept of shipping in whatever the locals consider exotic as a lure to snag a local and ship them off to somewhere else. I'm still giggling (0.5).
Lord Azrael: 17 (4.25 average)Originality: 4.5 I dug the tale of the ex-military man turned ship captain…but it honestly had more of a Dread Captain vibe than that of a Thunder Guide (more on that under UoSI below) (0.5). As I've mentioned before, humans are basically a "free space" in my book so I'll never deduct points for using them. Aside from that, you were the only one to pick up Marshal and Exotic Weapon Master, and I didn't expect a paladin whatsoever (0.5). When I saw the boomerang proficiency, I hoped someone would go the Boomerang Daze route. I really liked your inclusion of Power Throw to boost the damage (and thus the save DC), but see Elegance below (0.5). As much as I hoped to see it, Boomerang Daze sprang to mind because it's all over charop suggestion forums (0).Power: 4.5 Marshal's rarely taken for more than a splash, but the additional levels snag you more auras and pair nicely with the standard paladin 2 dip (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, Boomerang Daze is great (especially with a reliable way to boost damage output like Brutal Throw). Assassin's Stance is more of a melee option, but at the worst it's an unreliable source of more bonus damage and thus a higher daze save DC. Boomerang Ricochet would have gone miles, but what can you do? Defensively, Divine Grace is there and partners with Sustaining Presence to really beef up your fort saves. However, that's not enough for me to award full defense points here; you've got to have solutions for more types of problems. When it comes to utility, it's no surprise that you're versatile--most exemplars are. This build came the closest in this round to obtaining the Triple Crown of offense/defense/utility, but just fell a bit short in the defense category (0).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Without Power Attack, you sadly don't qualify for Power Throw. EDIT: Except you DO have Power Attack, something I clearly overlooked (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). Multiclass penalties were avoided, but the dips into both paladin and Exotic Weapon Master may be too much for some DMs (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by maxing Diplomacy and using those ranks to qualify for Exemplar (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Here we had a series of peaks and valleys. Some things mentioned (like your high Diplo bonus) aren't unique synergies, as a lot of folks could hit the DCs this round. I know that you used Nymph's Kiss, Motivate CHA, etc. to get those bonuses, but in the future please be more specific about spelling that out. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth that you said you're "not going to pretend serial hero does anything but give you 4,000 gp..." What unique things did you plan on doing with that gold? The one thing that was truly missing was the synergy between Rescue Artist & Exemplar--you can take Skill Mastery in the skills that class feature boosts! Still, you paid some attention to the class features, so it's not a total bust here. One of the things that saved this from deduction land was the use of Survival and Track; I agree with your assessment that it feels almost necessary on a Thunder Guide (0). I get where you were trying to take this, but the exquisite backstory felt like a great setup for something like Dread Pirate, Legendary Captain, or Scarlet Corsair. The Thunder Guide didn't strike me as a logical next step (even with the thought of the only work available being merchant escorts) (-0.5).

Lest anyone forget...

My Criteria
Each entry will start at a base score of 12 (3 in each category), with deductions or bonuses awarded based on the following questions:

Originality:
Does the entry present a compelling backstory, concept, or theme aside from the mechanics of the build?
Does the entry enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
Does the entry make use of any unique mechanical tricks/feat chains?
Does the entry avoid known cheese and overused optimization suggestions?
Power:
Does the entry surpass a hypothetical build that continues in the base class used for qualification (i.e. does the entry follow established breakpoints for base classes or make a compelling case for the breakpoint selected)?
Does the entry function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers or limited resources?
Does the entry thrive without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other "add-ons" for its power?
Does the entry contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and utility? Here an answer of "No" denotes that the build thrives in one or fewer of those three categories, "yes and no" denotes that the build thrives in two of those three categories, and "yes" denotes that the build wins the elusive triple crown--pulling its weight in terms of all three of those categories.
Elegance:
Does the entry qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry qualify for all feats and skill tricks taken?
Does the entry avoid reliance on any questionable rules interpretations, as well as providing a list of source material while avoiding cross-setting material or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
Does the entry avoid multi-class penalties and dipping* more than once?
UoSI:
Does the entry qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of all entry requirements?
Does the entry complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry synergize the unique mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build and/or present a novel use of said mechanical abilities?
Does the entry complement the background, concept, or theme of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?
*Where "dipping" is defined as taking two or fewer levels in a base class or prestige class.
Each of the questions above can be answered in one of three ways. A straight "yes" will earn a +0.5 bonus to the category in question. A straight "no" will suffer a -0.5 penalty to the category, and an ambivalent "yes and no" will wash out with no adjustment to the category. Other scoring rules (like a flat -1 penalty per Flaw used, for instance) will be followed as requested by the Chairperson in the thread. If there are any questions about the clarity of my criteria in general, please post them openly so I can address. If there are any disagreements with particular scores, please PM the chairperson as part of the regular dispute process.

Standings
EntryPlaceTotalAverage
Lord Kole NaerrinGold29.53.6875
Lord AzraelSilver28.53.5625
Lord Al'ayn Q'tarmaynBronze23.752.96875
Lord The SpeakerFourth23.252.90625
Lord Professor HexlerFifth22.52.8125
Lord NoamuthSixth20.252.53125