What are the best ways to do Ranged Sneak Attack?

[aleucard]

I'm in a campaign where I'm going to be more or less the party ninja. Specific build is here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=77027) if you're interested, but the majority of my sneak-attacking comes from a modified version of the Craven feat (since the fear aspect makes absolutely ****ing zero sense whatsoever), which amusingly enough is still enough to roughly double my damage whenever it happens. As such, I'm wanting to have it apply as often as possible. I got the Truedeath and Demolition crystals for obvious reasons, but I've apparently underestimated just how difficult it is to apply precision damage at range (and I'm squishy enough that I'm wanting to maintain that range when possible). What can I do to make ranged sneak-attack viable as what is primarily a cleric? We will be going into Epic levels at some point, so class suggestions that don't progress casting (which will be much more viable once I already have 9th's) are welcome. I might also be able to convince my DM to allow me to take certain feats outside the normal progression if necessary (though I'll probably take a hit elsewhere), so that's fine too.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

[Darrin]

Well, first on my list would be to get an elvencraft bow with a wand chamber, and put a wand of sniper's shot (Spell Compendium) in there ASAP. This isn't a cleric spell, so you'd want to grab the Magic domain, buff UMD, or maybe dip into Prestige Ranger.

Second would be getting the Penetrating Strike ACF, but glancing at your build, I'm not sure how to do that without losing two more caster levels.

[aleucard]

Distance hasn't been an issue thus far, though if it becomes an issue I can ask my DM for the cost of a permanent item of Sniper's Shot. I already have my bow, though, so modifications to the tune of elvencraft probably won't fly.

I have no idea where Penetrating Strike is, though. Can you provide a source?

[Darrin]

Distance hasn't been an issue thus far, though if it becomes an issue I can ask my DM for the cost of a permanent item of Sniper's Shot.


According to the DMG, it should cost around 8000 GP: 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 2000 (continuous) x 4 (1 round duration).



I have no idea where Penetrating Strike is, though. Can you provide a source?

Sorry, should have mentioned the source. Penetrating Strike is a Rogue ACF from Dungeonscape. Trades Trap Sense for the ability to do half of your sneak attack damage when flanking a crit-immune creature. There's a slightly better version in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, that says you get half your damage *dice* rather than half damage. There's another similar version in Complete Champion called Death's Ruin, but it only works against undead. All of them require three levels of Rogue, though.

[Urpriest]

In general, ranged sneak attack is just a matter of being undetectable at range. You want some version of Hide in Plain Sight, and a source of concealment or cover if your version of Hide in Plain Sight doesn't cover that. Add Darkstalker, and make sure your source of concealment/cover isn't negated by True Seeing.

[LooseCannoneer]

For if all else fails, Improved Feint. It'll only get one attack off, but your sneak attack damage should counterbalance any damage you could have done with extra non-sneak attacks.

[Zirconia]

One other possibility is to encourage your party crowd controller to use spells that remove Dex bonus. The most common way of doing this is by Blinding them, and fortunately things like Glitterdust are popular choices already (and, since it is not mind-affecting, works on undead, constructs, etc.). Flashburst (Spellcaster's Compendium) is a really large blinding spell at 3rd level, Pyrotechnics at 2nd if you can get a fire going, say a lantern. Orb of Cold has a 1 round blinding rider when it hits, if your mage likes to blast.

[Jowgen]

Since you can't flank or feint, you NEED a reliable way of denying dex. The most reliable one for this (barring some very specific stuff) is being hidden/ having total concealment.

The "deluxe" option here -imo- is the Shadow Blend ability gained from the Shadow Creature template. It's a +2 LA, but you get a great swagload of stuff; and effectively night constant total concealment if you can reliably modulate ligthing condition (e.g. Dark Lantern, ToM). Need to have LA-buy-off in play though for this to gell well with most builds. Watch out for the ban/nerf hammer on that though.

The cheaper, still very good and likely more practical alternative is the Dark template; IF your DM accepts the re-print in the Forgotten Realms adventure "Comyr: The tearing of the weave" as over-riding the ToM version; since only the later version gives the Su version of HipS, which allows you to hide without concealment. An additional kicker on this, the aforementioned adventure also has a Magical Location -the Failed Shadow gate- which can give you the Dark template for 5000 GP equivalent, provided you jump through some hoops and are okay with being irrevocably evil. Either scenario, if you have LA buy-off available and no other templates in mind, the Su HipS Dark template is an excellent choice.

Other than that, Sniper's Shot and Guided Shot spells should ideally be accessed somehow to make your SA more versatile/reliable, as others have already mentioned.

[LooseCannoneer]

You can feint. Feinting is a perfectly acceptable strategy here.

[Urpriest]

You can feint. Feinting is a perfectly acceptable strategy here.

Read the rules for Feinting. It's explicitly melee-only.

[Troacctid]

You could try ye olde snowsight and obscuring snow combo. Grants concealment to you, but you can see normally through it, and it's not penetrated by true seeing like an invisibility or ebon eyes type thing would be.

[Chronos]

Quoth Jowgen:

...since only the later version gives the Su version of HipS, which allows you to hide without concealment.
There are many different versions of HiPS. Some are supernatural, some are extraordinary. Most either remove the need for concealment or provide concealment; so far as I know, the ToM Dark template is the only one that does not. It happens to be (ex), but that doesn't mean that that's a problem for all (ex) versions of the ability, and the best versions are both (ex) and remove the need for concealment. Personally, I'm inclined to think that, since the Dark template is the only one that doesn't do that, that the omission there was just an editing mistake, though your DM might of course disagree.

Oh, and the other standard way of setting up sneak attacks is for the opponent to be flat-footed, which you can get by getting surprise and/or winning initiative. Doing both (not all that hard for a rogue) means a full attack plus one with Sneak Attack, which is usually enough to kill.

[LooseCannoneer]

Read the rules for Feinting. It's explicitly melee-only.

My bad. I was looking at the actual feint maneuver, not the bluff skill. It says nothing about melee-only in the maneuver description.

[Troacctid]

Why would it make sense for the Dark template to let you hide in plain sight without concealment? You're supposed to be hiding in darkness. Darkness provides concealment. Bam.

[Curmudgeon]

There are many different versions of HiPS. Some are supernatural, some are extraordinary. Most either remove the need for concealment or provide concealment; so far as I know, the ToM Dark template is the only one that does not.
Actually, practically none of the Extraordinary versions of Hide in Plain Sight remove the need for concealment or provide concealment. Instead, most of those are paired with a second class ability (Camouflage) which independently removes the need for concealment in a limited set of environmental conditions.

[Chronos]

Well, yes, but that amounts to the same thing, given that Camouflage is useable in exactly the same situations as Hide in Plain Sight, and is always gotten first. A ranger's hide in plain sight ability might not let the ranger ignore lack concealment, but a ranger with HiPS who can use that ability can always ignore lack of concealment.

[Urpriest]

My bad. I was looking at the actual feint maneuver, not the bluff skill. It says nothing about melee-only in the maneuver description.

:smallconfused:


Feint

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, yes, but that amounts to the same thing, given that Camouflage is useable in exactly the same situations as Hide in Plain Sight, and is always gotten first.
No, it's not always the same thing. For instance, the Factotum trying to use Scout Hide in Plain Sight via Cunning Brilliance without also picking up Camouflage.

[aleucard]

Alright, so the general consensus seems to be that the best method is to make myself undetectable, which does double duty in helping with my stealth in general. What's the best way of doing this in your opinion? I'm thinking that Ring of Blinking would probably do best, especially if I can get it upgraded to the Greater version (thus negating the 20% miss chance, along with other benefits). I have a free ring slot too, which helps there. Any other good ideas, preferably ones that I can implement quickly? Ones for later on would work too, but keep in mind that I don't have all that much space in my build.

[gorfnab]

I'm thinking that Ring of Blinking would probably do best, especially if I can get it upgraded to the Greater version (thus negating the 20% miss chance, along with other benefits).
The feat Pierce Magical Concealment can be used to ignore the miss chance from the normal Blink, but depending on your situation throwing more money for the greater version might be an easier option.

[DEMON]

The feat Pierce Magical Concealment can be used to ignore the miss chance from the normal Blink, but depending on your situation throwing more money for the greater version might be an easier option.

Pierce Magical Concealment has has heavy pre-reqs sadly.

Seeking bow enhancement might help here, too, depending on your DM. If it does, the +1 price is very much worth it.

[aleucard]

PMC is for non-casters, and I'm primarily a cleric. Improved Precise Shot might work, though, but then I have to convince the DM to 1) let me have bonus feats and 2) waive the Dex prereq.

I already have Seeking on my bow, so there is that. Maybe a way for Blindsense or better out to at least 30' and an Eversmoking Bottle?

[WeaselGuy]

Wand of Grease or Bags of Marbles could be useful. If you force someone to make a balance check, and they don't have 5+ ranks in balance, then they are flat-footed. Flat-footed means sneak attack status.

Also, check out this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) for more Rogue goodness...

[Urpriest]

PMC is for non-casters, and I'm primarily a cleric. Improved Precise Shot might work, though, but then I have to convince the DM to 1) let me have bonus feats and 2) waive the Dex prereq.

I already have Seeking on my bow, so there is that. Maybe a way for Blindsense or better out to at least 30' and an Eversmoking Bottle?

Blindsense won't work, you'll need at least Blindsight.

[Telok]

There is a feat to feint with a bow. I do not recall where it is though.

[DEMON]

There is a feat to feint with a bow. I do not recall where it is though.

Bow Feint. Dragon #350.

Works within 30 ft.

[aleucard]

Grease and Marbles are nice, but that particular hole's massive enough that a savvy DM can't be expected to leave it alone too often. I do have the ice version of Grease on my list, though, so there is that.

Blindsense would work because I have the bow enchantment that means concealment doesn't do **** as long as I get the right square. The issue now becomes finding a way to get it that won't cost an arm and a leg.

I'm allowed to take flaws post-chargen apparently, but my DM is also not stupid enough to allow a nonsensical or too-weak flaw, and I am not all that sure which ones can be sensibly taken after the ones I already have save one (I'm allowed to pull from any source I can reference for him including others' homebrew, but he has to OK it before I get it).

EDIT: Thus far, the best option I can find is a combo of Blindfold of True Sight (MIC 75) and the Eversmoking Bottle (DMG 256), though now that I look at it more closely 50' in one round and 100' in another is very liable to mess with my allies. Any ideas for something a little more compact would be GREATLY appreciated, though I might also be able to convince the DM to call my bottle modified (he's near the top of the food chain for a group of well-funded assassin-types, they do their homework with R&D) if it is necessary.

EDIT 2: Scratch that thing about flaws, I already maxed out my available number of them.

EDIT 3: Another idea, somehow acquire the Dark template from Tome of Magic 161 and something to turn off the lights as needed (especially since it looks like the only way to prevent its HIPS variant outside of daylight is active magic use). I can either treat it like a funky PrC or find some method of LA buyoff, though likely the latter isn't going to go over too well. The DM (rightly, in my book) finds the XP is a river concept to be horse****, and something like that forces it upon him, not to mention that it's functionally getting buffs for free.

[WeaselGuy]

Or you can spend the 22000 gp and get the continuous version of the Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis, from ToM...

[Curmudgeon]

Or you can spend the 22000 gp and get the continuous version of the Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis, from ToM...
That gives you Hide in Plain Sight (except if it's daylight, when it ceases to work) to bypass the "not being observed" requirement to use the Hide skill. I doesn't give you cover/concealment, which is also required to be able to Hide.

[WeaselGuy]

That gives you Hide in Plain Sight (except if it's daylight, when it ceases to work) to bypass the "not being observed" requirement to use the Hide skill. I doesn't give you cover/concealment, which is also required to be able to Hide.

The point was to get him the Dark template...

[Curmudgeon]

The point was to get him the Dark template...
I understand that's what the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis does. The Dark Creature template provides the single worst version of Hide in Plain Sight in all of D&D. So what's your point?

[WeaselGuy]

EDIT 3: Another idea, somehow acquire the Dark template from Tome of Magic 161 and something to turn off the lights as needed (especially since it looks like the only way to prevent its HIPS variant outside of daylight is active magic use). I can either treat it like a funky PrC or find some method of LA buyoff, though likely the latter isn't going to go over too well. The DM (rightly, in my book) finds the XP is a river concept to be horse****, and something like that forces it upon him, not to mention that it's functionally getting buffs for free.

That was my point. An easier way for him to get the template he wants.

[aleucard]

Sadly, my DM is aware of that item and finds 22k to NOT equal 1 LA, so that item is off the table. I'm thinking the LA would potentially be worth it after I get 9ths, though.

[Jowgen]

Dark creature is meant to be a "cheap" template. Tome of Magic talks about how it was designed to be stream-lined player-friendly Shadow-creature-Light; suggests the option of acquiring it in lieu of a level (very convenient with LA buy off), and gives the aforementioned Collar as a way to get it for simply 22k gp.

Moreover: Comyr -The Tearing of the Weave- not only provided a Forgotten-Realms upgrade to the Template by making Hide in Plain Sight better, but also gave a magical location that can bestow the template with an equivalent ability cost of 5K gp.

There is literally no single other template that WotC have made so incredibly easily accessible. Your DM should take this into consideration when adjudicating your getting it.

[aleucard]

Dark creature is meant to be a "cheap" template. Tome of Magic talks about how it was designed to be stream-lined player-friendly Shadow-creature-Light; suggests the option of acquiring it in lieu of a level (very convenient with LA buy off), and gives the aforementioned Collar as a way to get it for simply 22k gp.

Moreover: Comyr -The Tearing of the Weave- not only provided a Forgotten-Realms upgrade to the Template by making Hide in Plain Sight better, but also gave a magical location that can bestow the template with an equivalent ability cost of 5K gp.

There is literally no single other template that WotC have made so incredibly easily accessible. Your DM should take this into consideration when adjudicating your getting it.

The upgrade to the template is nice, but one-time activation of 10 minutes a day is not enough in my book. Unless if you have something that might be used to convince my DM to let me have it without LA that doesn't invoke XP Is A River, I'll probably have to just swallow the adjustment.

EDIT: And no, going through the arch 10 times would probably not go too well, seeing as to how I'm playing a Good character and I'd like it to stay that way. I might be able to convince my DM to let me ignore the Alignment change, though.

[aleucard]

Alright, so. I've done a little more playing with the character as is, and I'm finding that I'm just not going to be able to do too well with Sneak Attack without scrapping my build entirely, so I'm going to be swapping out the SA for something else. Currently, as the relevant part is Rogue 1 as my first level, the ideas I have so far are Martial Rogue (because there's some useful feats out there that I may appreciate, and it'd free up some of my other feats too) and Scout 1 (because it lets me have a more usable version of precision damage, and means I don't have to change anything else, and I get some other minor bonuses to). If you have any better ideas for what to slot in at my first level that lets me keep my stealth focus and maybe Trapfinding (not AS necessary, but I'm the only guy in the party with it right now) or a recommendation for one or the other, I'm all ears.

[aleucard]

Anyone want to give some input on my previous post? This'll probably be my only bump of this topic, though. Also, I'm playing a Dragonfire Adept in another campaign with Changeling Rogue 1 as my starting level. Would Martial Rogue be compatible with Changeling Rogue, or is that a no-go? I'm coming to the realization that if I'm doing anything but breathing when I have it available, I'm doing it wrong, and Sneak Attack don't fit too well there. A Fighter feat might, though.

[Darrin]

Anyone want to give some input on my previous post?


Well, if you've already got Travel Devotion and TU to get multiple uses out of it, I think I'd vote for Scout.



Would Martial Rogue be compatible with Changeling Rogue, or is that a no-go?


There's no overlap between Martial Rogue and the Changeling Substitution levels, so you should be able to combine them (with DM approval).

The only other option that comes to my mind is Ranger with the Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape), which switches Track for Trapfinding.

[Derpldorf]

Best ranged sneak attack?

Throwing Returning Bannanna Creame Pies. Nothing demoralizes the BBEG more than a pie to the face mid monologue.

[aspekt]

I have a Pixie Scout. Greater Invisibility takes care of all of that.

[WeaselGuy]

I have a Pixie Scout. Greater Invisibility takes care of all of that.

My wife played a Pixie Scout in our 2013 campaign. Greater Invisibility is ridiculously useful. So is Flight and flyby attack.

On a related note, our DM has banned Pixie Scouts from future campaigns. And Pixie Sorcerers. And Pixie Rogues.

Actually, I'm pretty sure my wife isn't allowed to play Pixies at all. But that's fine, because she likes Tibbits just as much.