A Dextrous Barbarian, or a Raging monk Shifter. Please. Help.

[Outback]

Okay, for our new campaign I'm looking at making a Shifter. The setting is a very liberal one, a travelling carnaval of spectacular individuals that move from town to town. Not necesairilly on the same plane or dimension. Basically it's a fallback setting for when our main Campaign (FR's The Night Below) falls through at the last moment. Every new evening of play can be a new session, whoever wants to DM a bit, does so. Very liberal.

Now, I only joined this campaign last game night, and decided on making a Shifter, mostly, because I'd never done so before. What I want to do, is create a savage, feral almost, dexterous fighter. I was thinking Monk/Barbarian even though it's polar opposite. Basically a raging bareknuckle fighter, think most 80s/ 90s martial arts movies etc.

I'm getting stumped for ideas, I only have the concept pretty clear in my head but no idea how to put it onto paper. I even had a look at the Tome of Battle but it was too much to focus on and I couldn't get my head around it (tho I'm not putting it away).

In summary, here are some things I'm considering (concept-wise)
Spiked Chain
Monk-Barbarian
Razorclaw Shifter trait (expanding on this to rip enemies apart).

If you have any ideas or suggestions, please help.

edit: I also might consider a Scout, as they seem to fight like I imagine Native American warriors fight. But I have no clue how to make the Skirmish attack work. I always though moving after an attack would get Attacks of Opportunity against me.

[Flickerdart]

Monk and Barbarian don't mix, unless you start out as Monk and then change alignments and never come back. There are alternatives, though - half-orc paragon grants rage without alignment restrictions, and there's a Chaos Monk in some Dragon magazine. You should also give Unarmed Swordsage some consideration, and definitely pick up Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick from the same book.

The Beast Strike feat will be useful for you - when making an unarmed attack, you also add your claw damage. While it's most often used on Warlocks with Eldritch Claw or Psychic Warriors with heavily augmented Claws of the Beast, every little bit helps when you're fighting unarmed.

[Amphetryon]

If you can get the Race requirements waved or re-flavored, Wildrunner - from Races of the Wild - isn't a terrible fit, conceptually.

[Outback]

If you can get the Race requirements waved or re-flavored, Wildrunner - from Races of the Wild - isn't a terrible fit, conceptually.

Huh, you might have something there. I've looked at the Wildrunner and even tho the Primal Scream scares me (visually), I like it. I'm looking at making it fit with a Scout Shifter now.

[animewatcha]

Is dragon mag on the table?

[Red Fel]

I'm with Flickerdart, Monk and Barb don't mix. You're better off just taking Barbarian with IUS (and SUS if ToB is on the table).

Now, here's the thing: Shifting stinks, and Shifter feats stink. It's sad, but true. That said, Shifting plus Barb rage, even though you only have a few uses per day, turns you into a force of nature. Literally and figuratively. So let's go with that.

First off: Have you read the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?225294-3-5-The-Shifter-Handbook-%28WIP%29)? Read it. Very useful.

Now, I would discourage Spiked Chain. Go with your natural weapons. I would also encourage throwing in some levels of Bloodclaw Master (ToB). Here's why. The class has a feature called Shifting, which you gain 1/day at BCM 1, 2/day at BCM 3, and 3/day at BCM 5. It also lasts for a number of rounds equal to Con modifier + BCM levels. But there is a special provision for Shifters: Instead, it grants you one extra use of your regular Shifting at BCM 1 and 5 (not 3), and increases the duration of your shifts for a number of rounds equal to your BCM levels. It also allows you to treat your character as being a Razorclaw Shifter for the purpose of prereqs, even if he's not one.

Another option is Warshaper. Although most of what it does only impacts you while Shifting, when it does, it's awesome.

If you would rather stay with Barbarian PrCs, I'd suggest Fist of the Forest or Frostrager. Both are brutal unarmed combatants that specialize in breaking faces.

[Outback]

Even Pathfinder is. The idea is D20 in general and having fun. The Carnival (Carnivál) travels multiple realms, so different settings are usable (but I want to stick to Dnd 3.5/ Pathfinder).

[Urpriest]

edit: I also might consider a Scout, as they seem to fight like I imagine Native American warriors fight. But I have no clue how to make the Skirmish attack work. I always though moving after an attack would get Attacks of Opportunity against me.

Scout requires you to move before your attacks, not after, so no worries there. For a melee scout you typically get the Pounce ability from somewhere, so you can do that sort of thing on a charge.

[Flickerdart]

There's also Riposte, the Skirmish ACF from the Cityscape web enhancement which gives you the damage bonus to enemies who attacked you, and the AC bonus against them if you hit. It's not as good, but doesn't require moving.

[animewatcha]

Even Pathfinder is. The idea is D20 in general and having fun. The Carnival (Carnivál) travels multiple realms, so different settings are usable (but I want to stick to Dnd 3.5/ Pathfinder).

if dragon mag is on the table, there is the saurian shifter which swaps out dex for con and lets you pick 2 traits instead of one. Slightly altered list though.

[Zaq]

If you would rather stay with Barbarian PrCs, I'd suggest Fist of the Forest or Frostrager. Both are brutal unarmed combatants that specialize in breaking faces.

I second this. Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) and/or Frostrager (Frostburn) work very well for making an unarmed Barbarian, and the two fit together almost perfectly.

You're still worse off than someone who just picked up a greatsword (let alone a spiked chain), but once Frostrager's one-two punch is on the table, you can make up some lost ground. Combine it with Snap Kick (ToB) for more fun. Who needs Flurry?

[Outback]

Yeah I don't like the idea of Riposte. It just seems lame. You hit me, so I can now hit you for +1d6 dmg. Like they had an idea for it but halfway to writing it, they stopped bothering about it. I like the idea of Skirmishing and I want to work out a way to keep moving every turn to get the bonus. I reckon 5' stepping around my enemy should allow the bonus to begin with right? (Now just a way to avoid those pesky AoO's). Just found the Frostburn book, reading through it now (selectively, I admit). One-two Punch, does that count for just ONE attack per round, or EVERY punch I make per round? Say I have ImpUnarmedStrike, a +9/+4 BAB, does it mean I can make four punches at +7/+7/+2/+2? That would be really cool! (Shifters can't combine Razorclaws with IUS, can they?) Maybe I should suggest it to my DM, make it clear how happy it would make me and remind him he didn't get me anything for my birthday as well -.- Going to look up Fist of the Forest now.


Also I should note, it's not likely these guys'll get massive amounts of playtime. Started at lvl3, no idea how much we'll end up using them eventually, but not planning for lvl 20.

[j_spencer93]

Chaos Monk/Barbarian with twirling frenzy rage variant would make a dexterous monk/barbarian, but when duel wielding only (i think)

[Red Fel]

Yeah I don't like the idea of Riposte. It just seems lame. You hit me, so I can now hit you for +1d6 dmg. Like they had an idea for it but halfway to writing it, they stopped bothering about it. I like the idea of Skirmishing and I want to work out a way to keep moving every turn to get the bonus. I reckon 5' stepping around my enemy should allow the bonus to begin with right? (Now just a way to avoid those pesky AoO's). Just found the Frostburn book, reading through it now (selectively, I admit). One-two Punch, does that count for just ONE attack per round, or EVERY punch I make per round? Say I have ImpUnarmedStrike, a +9/+4 BAB, does it mean I can make four punches at +7/+7/+2/+2? That would be really cool! (Shifters can't combine Razorclaws with IUS, can they?) Maybe I should suggest it to my DM, make it clear how happy it would make me and remind him he didn't get me anything for my birthday as well -.- Going to look up Fist of the Forest now.


Also I should note, it's not likely these guys'll get massive amounts of playtime. Started at lvl3, no idea how much we'll end up using them eventually, but not planning for lvl 20.

In order: A 5-foot-step does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It's a great tactical option for that reason. However, Skirmish only applies during turns where you move at least 10 feet, not 5. It's great for builds that focus on single, powerful attacks (i.e. a standard action attack at your highest BAB) or those which are designed to divert and distract, and provoke AoOs; it's not great if you want to be launching multiple attacks per round. One-Two Punch allows you to make one additional attack when making an unarmed attack, once per round. Thus, on a standard action (one attack), you attack twice; on a full attack action, you attack with your full attack plus one additional unarmed strike. To use your +9/+4 BAB example, that means that on a standard attack (one attack at +9) you would instead make two attacks (at +7/+7); on a full attack (+9/+4) you would make three (+7/+7/+2). First off, natural weapons are separate from iterative attacks. That is, you can only make a fixed number of attacks per round with natural weapons, regardless of your BAB. In the case of claws, that's two claw attacks, regardless of BAB. However, you can mix unarmed strikes and natural weapons. In the example of a +9/+4 BAB, you can make your +9/+4 unarmed strikes, then two claw attacks at +4 (BAB -5) as secondary attacks. Additionally, the Beast Strike feat from Dragon Magazine allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed strikes, effectively allowing you to add it twice (once when making your unarmed strikes, then once again when making your claw secondaries). Note further that as long as you are making any attacks with your unarmed strikes, you may trigger One-Two Punch.

As an aside, if you can, use Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle, which will give you something akin to a Monk's unarmed damage progression, without any Monk levels. If you really want to make it sick, take a dip of Warblade to grab the Punishing Stance stance, which adds 1d6 damage to every attack you make. Every attack. With high enough BAB, that's multiple unarmed strikes, plus One-Two Punch, plus claw attacks. If you're particularly sadistic, you can take the Stormguard Warrior feat, which basically allows you to spike your damage every other round dramatically.

Then just slap on a Necklace of Natural Weapons to make your punches and claws magical, and go to town.

[gorfnab]

For a dextrous unarmed Barbarian I recommend the following set up for the first two levels.

1. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA) or Ferocity (Citys), City Brawler ACF (Drg#349) , Skilled City Dweller (Citys, trade Ride for Tumble) - Feat: Weapon Finesse
2. Barbarian - Wolf Totem ACF (UA)

So you get 2 unarmed strikes per round (3 with whirling frenzy), full attack on charge (pounce), the ability to trip, full BAB, D12 HD, light armor, and Tumble as a class skill.
IF you choose Ferocity instead of Whirling Frenzy you loose out on the extra attack but instead gain a boost to Dex.

[dextercorvia]

Now, here's the thing: Shifting stinks, and Shifter feats stink.

Mostly I agree with you. There is one little glimmer of hope for Shifter feats. Despite what the short description in the table says, some of them don't require you to be shifting. For example, if you are a Longtooth Shifter and can get a bite attack another way (Cloistered Cleric dip for Travel and Knowledge Devotions on a Scout build, for instance, can pick up the Hunger Domain), then Longtooth Elite lets you deal Con damage on every bite. Similarly a Half-Minotaur Gorebrute Shifter gets the knock down effect from Gorebrute Elite as an always on feature.

[animewatcha]

If you choose to go monk, there is a shifter dragon mag feat for forcing a mob to end their shapechanging affect ( polymorph-type stuff ). There is also a feat that lets you expend a daily usage of shifting to ignore any fear effect you get hit with. Hello phantasmal killer. There is also the beast strike feat. The feat that let's you ignore attack penalties ( but not movement ) when entangled and such.

[atemu1234]

Chaos Monk/Barbarian with twirling frenzy rage variant would make a dexterous monk/barbarian, but when duel wielding only (i think)

Still, one of the better dual wielding things out there.

Whirling Frenzy is a decent ACF.

[Outback]

I like alot of things I've seen in this thread, and for the support, I say thank you fine fellows (+100 Internet to all!) I have however developed a strong feeling for a Scout character, possibly Half-orc (don't know why, feels good). Should I start a new thread with a topic about that, or can we just continue the discussion in here? I specially want to explore the angle of moving 10' a round and hit (at least) two enemies with Skirmish bonus damage.

[Zaq]

I like alot of things I've seen in this thread, and for the support, I say thank you fine fellows (+100 Internet to all!) I have however developed a strong feeling for a Scout character, possibly Half-orc (don't know why, feels good). Should I start a new thread with a topic about that, or can we just continue the discussion in here? I specially want to explore the angle of moving 10' a round and hit (at least) two enemies with Skirmish bonus damage.

There are several ways of getting multiple attacks after you move, but there are three that stand out.

First, you can get Pounce from somewhere, which lets you make a full attack at the end of a charge. The easiest way to get Pounce is to dip a level of Barbarian, and use the Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion to trade out your fast movement for Pounce.

Second, you can get Travel Devotion, a feat from Complete Champion that lets you move your speed as a swift action (so you can still take a full attack afterwards, if you want, which you do). By default, Travel Devotion works once per day and lasts for one minute, but you can get extra uses per day by either taking the feat multiple times (not recommended) or by expending uses of Turn Undead (recommended). This means that you have to dip into Cleric or another class that gets TU, but that's not really a bad thing, especially because a Cleric who worships a god with the Travel domain can swap out that domain to get Travel Devotion as a bonus feat.

Finally, if you like making ranged attacks, you can take Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot). Like Manyshot, it lets you shoot multiple arrows as a standard action; unlike Manyshot, it explicitly works with precision damage (which Skirmish is), so each of those arrows gets Skirmish. Since Greater Manyshot relies on your BAB (and things like Rapid Shot don't apply, because it's a standard action and not a full attack), you usually want to take the feat Swift Hunter, from Complete Scoundrel. Swift Hunter lets your Scout and Ranger levels stack for the purposes of Skirmish, meaning that you can take mostly Ranger levels, getting a higher BAB than a pure Scout but keeping full Skirmish. (Rangers have worse skills than Scouts, which is the real tradeoff there, but not so much worse as to be unworkable.)

There are other methods of getting multiple Skirmishes at once, but these three tend to be the best for general purposes.

[Outback]

I was thinking of using spears, both for throwing and stabbing (reading Wheel of Time, Aiel inspired here). So throw one or two, then get in close (with a Pounce, if possible) and become a whirlwind among my enemies. Snap-kick will definitely get a place in there somewhere.

Oh yes also, I don't feel too happy about dipping into non-related classes (like Cleric) for whatever technical advantage. Ranger dipping is fine, it's the same kind of class, even Barbarian dipping I'm happy to do, but not too much. I think I will use Pathfinder system, as I also like their Rangers. Perhaps that feat mentioned which stacks Skirmish damage between the two classes and continue levelling as a ranger from there.

Final edit: it seems Scouts in Pathfinder are actually Rogue Archetypes.