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View Full Version : The Sophisticate (Bard Archetype): A Useful and Fun Option?



JonathonWilder
2015-01-26, 02:37 PM
Found in the book Class Acts: Bard Archetypes

THE SOPHISTICATE (BARD ARCHETYPE)
A sophisticate is an academic adventurer, a regal performer, a classically-schooled rider, and a formidable fencer and man-at-arms. What these erudite bards lack in magical aptitude, they make up for with unrivaled prowess in any number of fields.
A sophisticate has the following class features.
Class Skills: Sophisticates add Handle Animal and Ride to their list of class skills.
Armor Proficiency: Sophisticates are proficient with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Academic Training (Ex): At 2nd level and at every even-numbered level thereafter, a sophisticate gains one bonus feat from the following list. A sophisticate must qualify for a feat in order to select it. Feats marked with a “1” are featured in the Pathfinder® Roleplaying Game: Advanced Player’s Guide ™, and feats marked with a “2” are featured in the Pathfinder® Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Magic ™ sourcebook. The bonus feats available to a sophisticate are:
Animal Affinity, Antagonize 2, Combat Expertise, Cosmopolitan 1, Deceitful, Extra Performance, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Lingering Performance1, Lunge, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Persuasive, Prodigy 2, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (any class skill), and Weapon Finesse.
This ability replaces the bard’s spells.

Bardic Performance (Ex): A sophisticate’s inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, frightening tune, and inspire heroics performances are extraordinary effects (Ex). A sophisticate gains the following types of bardic performance:
Counterpoint (Ex): Against any creature within 30 ft. of the sophisticate that would be the target of a Diplomacy or Intimidate skill check made to either demoralize or improve the subject’s attitude, the sophisticate may substitute his Perform skill check (if higher) for the DC of the skill check required to demoralize or improve the subject’s attitude. This performance requires an immediate action to use. Counterpoint relies on audible components.
This ability replaces countersong.
Logical Fallacy (Ex): As a standard action, the sophisticate can grant all allies within 30 ft. a +4 morale bonus on Will saving throws made to disbelieve illusions. Logical fallacy relies on audible components.
This ability replaces distraction.
Inspire Camaraderie (Ex): A sophisticate can end his performance as a standard action to grant each ally within 30 ft. a +2 bonus on all attack rolls made while flanking. This bonus stacks with the usual bonuses granted by flanking with an ally. Inspire Camaraderie relies on audible components.
This ability replaces fascinate.
Gather Crowd (Ex): At 6th level, the sophisticate gains the ability to quickly gather a crowd. This is identical to the gather crowd ability of the celebrity and demagogue bard archetypes (see the Pathfinder® Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Magic ™ sourcebook).
This ability replaces suggestion.
Aiding Action (Ex): At 12th level, the sophisticate can use the aid another action to aid the Armor Class or attack rolls of all allies within range as a standard action. The bard must threaten each enemy against whom any given aid is meant to apply, as normal. The sophisticate may aid the Armor Class of some allies and the attack rolls of others, choosing to grant different bonuses with each aid another attempt performed this way. Aiding action relies on audible components.
This ability replaces soothing performance.
Improved Aiding Action (Ex): At 18th level, the sophisticate can use the aid another action on any and all allies within 30 ft. as a standard action, even if he does not threaten enemies against whom the granted aid is meant to apply. Improved Aiding Action relies on audible components.
This ability replaces mass suggestion.
Formal Education (Ex): A sophisticate adds half his class level (minimum +1) to all trained Knowledge skill checks.
Condescend (Ex): At 4th level, the sophisticate can attempt to demoralize a creature with the Diplomacy skill as a standard action. Such an attempt is performed in the same way that an Intimidate check made to demoralize a creature would normally be performed. Furthermore, the sophisticate can veil the infuriating verbal barbs in such a way that allows the bard to delay the results of the check for up to 1 minute, after which the cleverness and impact of the verbal setup becomes lost. At any time before then, the bard may bring to bear the results of the last demoralizing Diplomacy check that he made against one target as a free action by delivering some verbal insult or punch line that casts his earlier remarks in an infuriating new light.
Denounce (Ex): At 20th level, the sophisticate can turn entire throngs of listeners against an opponent with a Diplomacy skill check and a minute-long oratory performance, worsening the indifferent or worse attitudes of all who hear him as they pertain to the subject by one step, plus one additional step for every 5 points by which his check exceeds the DC. The DC of this skill check is equal to the DC required improve the attitudes of the listeners normally. Helpful or better attitudes are not affected.
This ability replaces deadly performance.

Erik Vale
2015-01-28, 04:20 AM
No, it's not worth it.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 05:12 AM
Well what is needed to make it worth it? Also lets consider how the archetype matches up with the rogue and the fighter, heck even the ranger. The above archetype would make for the very best face and skill monkey... especially mattering how one rules the ability Formal Learning. It doesn't say whether it replaces Bardic Knowledge or if it can stack with it.

Xerlith
2015-01-28, 05:32 AM
Utility. I can't see any bard wanting to trade his versatility that spells bring to instead gain some (mostly numeric) bonuses. It also promotes a very specific playstyle, and it gives literallyl next to nothing more than what the bard couldn't do already.
It doesn't bring any utility a good diplomacy check couldn't. That's about it, I think.
As for what is a good tradeoff... Well, martial maneuvers from Path Of War are a good example, to give just one. It CHANGES the entire concept of the class to a pure martially minded one.
Kind of what arcane duelist does, but the other way round, giving up versatility for pure martial oomph.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 06:14 AM
You do realize that this archetype offers 10 extra feats that can be used to improve combat ability and even that of mounted combat right? It offers much the same combat as a fighter though with a more limited selection of feats and not all for combat. This is a more combat style bard and also offers what some people actually want... an non-spellcasting bard. Much like a ranger without spells and the one archetype for the paladin.

Erik Vale
2015-01-28, 06:25 AM
Even with that, it's still not worth it.

Remember, Magic trumps Mundane. If someone's going for the fluff, sure, go ahead. But Bard+Magic trumps Bard+[Not-Quite]Fighter Feats.

However, if you can still use magic-based masterpieces, I suppose you get some redemption, particularly when you get planar binding available at level 11.


However, if Formal Education stacks with Jack of all Trades, then a Catfolk Sophisticate would know everything much more literally than normal.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 06:33 AM
Sighs, perhaps. Not every class needs magic, as long is there is a full caster such as a Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer other classes can go without spells I feel but that is just me. I find some players insistence that spells must be kept to be somewhat annoying. If I like a class or concept idea I will use it, even if it means losing spellcasting.

Any ideas for strengthening this archetype and making ir more worth getting? At least what are you suggestions for Formal Learning? What should it replace and would it be a bad idea to have that ability stack with Bardic Knowledge?

goto124
2015-01-28, 08:38 AM
Doesn't it depend on whether magic is really that good compared to non-magic, and if you can rely on another PC for spells? Which depends on system?

Amphetryon
2015-01-28, 08:43 AM
Doesn't it depend on whether magic is really that good compared to non-magic, and if you can rely on another PC for spells? Which depends on system?

The system is pretty clearly labeled in the OP's first post, though, so we have a fairly good idea of how good magic is compared to non-magic for this comparison.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 11:30 AM
Yet, only because of many DMs and Players allowing magic to be the easy answer for so many problems and because of a strong magic bias. Sighs I miss see more of the players and DMs that looked to a character not for their power but because of their concept and role. The I want to play the fighter, the knight, the silent swordsman. I want to play the priest, the healer, the defender, the protector. Magic can be lazy, stifling roleplay and taking the easy out of challenges.

And here with the with the 'I want to play the spy, the scholar, the diplomat, the charmer, the entertainer, and the agile fencer.' As the pampered noble trained in the arts, the blade, in mind and body, with horses and with tongue.... all without the use of magic. One who gets by through their wits and luck, to live or die by merit of their own smarts and naturally trained gifts not through the casting of magic. This archetype can be the playable Aristocrat and Noble.

The bard, whether with spells or with the above can offer so much. Laughs, is spells really so much a lose when it comes to the role a bards is best at? He is party support, the scholar and jack of trades, the party face and the party buffer or enemy debuffer with performances. The bard loses not the role it was meant to play and in many ways is given the chance to thrive in it if perhaps in different ways. Instead of support with magic is is able to focus on in skill of tongue, song and poem, and with blade.

Sighs, I don't know why I waste my breath. So few care about roles of characters and the story, so many care far more about how much power they can squeeze out of their character. I wont get any help for this archetype here. -grumble, grumble, grumble-

roko10
2015-01-28, 11:35 AM
....maybe it's because you asked in the Optimization board. Where people, y'know, optimize their characters for crunch. Not for fluff

If your character concept involves no spellcasting, by all means go for the Archetype. Just note that your Bard would not be as strong the one who still has spellcasting.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 11:42 AM
Oh? I must have missed that distinction since I went from Forum main, to Gaming, to Roleplaying Games with no distinction that it was only for Optimization.

I was seeking help with people giving their thoughts on the archetype and how to strengthen it a bit if needed (at least offer advice for Formal Education)... not 'don't do it you give up spells and that is stupid'. Don't tell me not to use a resource because you think it is a weaker option, help me make use the resource and strength that.

Seriously, there is no way it can be worth giving up spells??!

roko10
2015-01-28, 12:12 PM
Oooooops :smallredface: Thought this was the DnD 3.5 subforum, which this actually belongs, but I disgress.

Grab Leadership. It is the single best feat in the game, because you can double your action economy-triple, even, if your cohort is a Summoner- and it'll migate the sting of losing spells. Also grab Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and MWP:Lance with your bonus feats., as you can and will grab a special mount(or your cohort's eidolon; we are not picky here.). Pick up Spirited Charge and Power Attack with your regular feat slots, and you can deal some pretty hairy damage from your mount. Take Perform(Oratory/Acting/Comedy), since you can hold on to your Bardic Music without sheathing your weapons or dismounting.

As for races, grab Gnome, and take the Eternal Hope racial feature. Rerolls on a 1 are better than a situational bonus against Giants.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 12:23 PM
Oooooops :smallredface: Thought this was the DnD 3.5 subforum, which this actually belongs, but I disgress.

Grab Leadership. It is the single best feat in the game, because you can double your action economy-triple, even, if your cohort is a Summoner- and it'll migate the sting of losing spells. Also grab Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and MWP:Lance with your bonus feats., as you can and will grab a special mount(or your cohort's eidolon; we are not picky here.). Pick up Spirited Charge and Power Attack with your regular feat slots, and you can deal some pretty hairy damage from your mount. Take Perform (Oratory/Acting/Comedy), since you can hold on to your Bardic Music without sheathing your weapons or dismounting.

As for races, grab Gnome, and take the Eternal Hope racial feature. Rerolls on a 1 are better than a situational bonus against Giants.
Thank you, this is most helpful in suggestions. ^^

Also I plan on taking Perform (Oratory) and I must admit to being surprised with the choice of Gnome. What of a human with their extra feat and additional skills?

Though what should I do with Formal Learning? It offers not what it is exchanged for or whether or not is can be stacked with Bardic Knowledge. Honestly when I first find this archetype I felt that was the one ability that seems incomplete in such details. This is an important details I feel needs to be taken care of before I can allow such a archetype as DM or when I join a roleplay with another for it to be approved.

roko10
2015-01-28, 12:36 PM
Gnomes have a Con and Cha bonus, so that you can last longer on the frontlines. The Strength penalty stinks, but that's a small price for always being capable of riding your mount of choice, even when in dungeons.

If you insist on going Human, grab Undersized Mount. This feat allows you to ride a mount of your size category.

Formal Education and Bardic Knowledge would stack under RAW; both are untyped bonuses, so I don't really see the problem in gaining them both, since you'll need to spend 10 skill points to gain your class level as a bonus to all Knowledge checks; skill points that would be better used on Peform skills or Ride.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 12:46 PM
Hmm, true enough though I am sure there are other choices for a bonus to Con and Cha without penalty to Str I would have to double check. Heck even the alternate trait that allows Humans to gain two ability scores could work.
Undersize Mount may be helpful and I feel a small lose, especially for gaining access to dungeons and other smaller spaces.

Ah... with only 1 rank in each Knowledge skill you have the means of having 24 ranks in each at 20th level, that is huge especially when considering the Loremaster ability and I feel a small price to pay to be so knowledgeable with little investment. Consider, for 10 ranks you can get a total of 240 ranks return at 20th level and for being class skills, there is no way you can't consider that huge with little loss.

roko10
2015-01-28, 01:12 PM
Do keep in mind that the archetype loses spells, so I'll consider that ability to be a relatively good trade to keep the Bard on tier 3, alebeit on a diffrent way. (The vanilla bard is kind of a "jack of all trades, master of none, whilst the Sophiscate is a "cavalier with worse BaB, but with better buffs and is capable of superior loremonging.)

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 01:23 PM
Big grin... you consider this class to still be tier 3 though in a different way? Hmm, you know that could be helpful for me in a different way. You see there is a homebrew called Giants and Graveyards that have all classes built being around tier 3 but I honestly never liked their bard rewrite though I love the other fixed spellcasters.

Moving on I would still consider the Sophisticate a 'jack of all trade' but one that is a greater master of lore and also a better support fighter that can be a skilled fencer and yes cavalier of sorts... though with weaker BaB. Yet the Bard was never supposed to be a warrior that matches the likes of a fighter or cavalier, its role always be the 'best' support class and 6th party member.

goto124
2015-01-28, 06:35 PM
Perform (Oratory) makes me giggle like an immature highschool boy. Sorry.

Edit: And describing why I find it funny... let's just say it's a form of kissing. Really passionate kissing.

JonathonWilder
2015-01-28, 06:37 PM
Perform (Oratory) makes me giggle like an immature highschool boy. Sorry.
Surprised and a bit confused... why?

Kid Jake
2015-01-28, 08:29 PM
Surprised and a bit confused... why?

Because it's close to Perform(Oral), which as I recall was actually a staple of the Pervirtuoso build.

JonathonWilder
2015-02-04, 12:52 AM
Well it is an interesting... if odd build for a bard I will give you that.