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johnbragg
2015-01-26, 03:10 PM
I'd like to run an E6 campaign someday, and while I respect Gnorman's E6 Compendium, I want to stay much closer to the base classes. But there are character concepts that are pretty classic archetypes that don't make a lot of sense for 1st level characters, notably stuff like Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, etc.

Topic A. I'm thinking that, for an E6 campaign, having "hybrid class" characters top out at around 4//4 is about right. Any higher, and the hybrid overshadows the base class, any lower and you might as well just multiclass 3/3. Does that balance point seem right or am I missing something major?

So I'm thinking of a 4-level setup, where the 1st level gives the synergy ability, and levels 2-4 advance the base classes. So an Arcane Archer would be
1. Fighter 1
2. Wizard 1
3. Arcane Archer 1 (Magic Arrows, +0 BAB, +0 Caster level)
4. Arcane Archer 2 (+1 BAB, +1 level of wizard)
5. Arcane Archer 3 (+2 BAB, +2 levels of wizard)
6. Arcane Archer 4 (+3 BAB, +3 levels of wizard, spell delivered by arrow)

Topic B
What prestige classes do we really need? By which I mean, concepts not covered by base classes that really should be covered?
1. Arcane ARcher
2. Eldritch Knight/Spellsword/etc (melee gish)
3. Arcane Trickster (Divine Trickster would run on the same table, I think)
4. Assassin (one level?)
5. Shadowdancer/Ninja/something (magical rogue, but not a caster)
6. Wildshaper (Usually from Ranger, sometimes Barbarian, maybe Sorcerer?)
7. Master Summoner (one level dip class)
8. Commander. Dip class

Special Snowflake Base Classes
Warlock
Int Based Fighter--Tome of Battle, Homebrew

That covers martial-arcane hybrids (melee and ranged), skillmonkey-caster hybrid, and a few classics (assassin, ninja-type, wildshaper)

Do we really need martial-divine hybrid and martial-skillmonkey hybrids, or do we just direct the player to the Paladin and Ranger entries? (Or a Warrior//Expert or PAthfinder Warpriest or Cleric with ACFs if they insist?)

Grod_The_Giant
2015-01-26, 04:14 PM
I'd like to run an E6 campaign someday, and while I respect Gnorman's E6 Compendium, I want to stay much closer to the base classes. But there are character concepts that are pretty classic archetypes that don't make a lot of sense for 1st level characters, notably stuff like Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, etc.
Why not? Why shouldn't I be able to play my concept from level 1, as long as the relative power level fits? Especially when the campaign is going to spend so much longer at those low levels. "Thief with a touch of magic" shouldn't take five levels to unlock.


1. Arcane ARcher
The Battle Sorcerer actually makes a decent Arcane Archer at low levels, with a decent BAB and good ability to pick up ranged-boosting spells. Clerics can do the same thing.

2. Eldritch Knight/Spellsword/etc (melee gish)
Duskblade, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage, Battle Sorcerer.

3. Arcane Trickster (Divine Trickster would run on the same table, I think)
Beguiler. Factotum. Psychic Rogue. Spellthief.

4. Assassin (one level?)
Rogue. Factotum. Scout.

5. Shadowdancer/Ninja/something (magical rogue, but not a caster)
Swordsage.

6. Wildshaper (Usually from Ranger, sometimes Barbarian, maybe Sorcerer?)
Shifter Wildshape Ranger or Druid? Battle Sorcerer making use of Alter Self and other assorted single-form transformation spells? This is, admittedly, harder to balance from level 1, given how D&D does shapeshifting, although not impossible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328962-The-Beastman-Revised-%28PEACH%29&p=16914183#post16914183).

Gnorman
2015-01-26, 05:08 PM
I agree with the basic concept - E6 doesn't give players a ton of latitude to experiment with prestige classes and the classic archetypes that some of them are built around. However, I do also agree with Grod that there's no reason for the "arcane archer" to be available from level one. Implementing that, however, is the tricky wicket: you can definitely solve the issue with dedicated base classes, or (as I did) with archetypes. And while Grod mentioned some base classes that fulfill your needs, I get the feeling from your post ("I want to stay much closer to base classes) that you're looking to operate in a core-only environment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I do like creating E6-friendly versions of prestige classes. I'm worried that because you're trying to keep builds to a 4/4 split, you end up with a conspicuous dead level that doesn't progress the abilities of either class; why not have a 2-level prestige class that fully progresses the class ability, but requires 2 levels in both base classes? Accomplishes the same thing, doesn't discriminate between wizard and sorcerer casting (both get 2nd level spells) but admittedly delays special abilities unique to the archetype. Personally, I'm attracted to a 3-level prestige class in the E6 environment, for three reasons: (1) equal split between base class and prestige class is nice, symmetry-wise, (2) it allows you to impose feat requirements that non-human characters can complete, and (3) it better allows for prestige classes that aren't hybrids. While you can reduce most prestige classes to a hybrid to some extent (Blackguard seems to be Fighter + a dash of Rogue & Cleric), what about the less obvious ones? Can Archmage fit into the E6 environment?

As to your second question: how much is too much? How little is too little? There are quite a few concepts that aren't covered by base classes, from "dedicated shapeshifter" to "gish" to "warlock." At a certain point, if you're going to make a 4-level prestige class for each of them, why not just go two steps further and make a base class?

johnbragg
2015-01-26, 05:12 PM
Why not? Why shouldn't I be able to play my concept from level 1, as long as the relative power level fits?
I tend to see the hybrids as something you develop into, not something you start as. Also, you're approaching this as an experienced roleplayer. What about your character, who's a fresh-faced noob straight out of training?


Especially when the campaign is going to spend so much longer at those low levels.

E6 doesn't have to stop the campaign at 6, just the level progression. And it makes levelling up into the prestige class a bigger deal, I think.


"Thief with a touch of magic" shouldn't take five levels to unlock.

Would three levels (Rogue 1, Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Adept 1, Trickster 1) be too much?


Arcane Archer The Battle Sorcerer actually makes a decent Arcane Archer at low levels, with a decent BAB and good ability to pick up ranged-boosting spells. Clerics can do the same thing.

Melee gish Duskblade, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage, Battle Sorcerer

Arcane Trickster Beguiler. Factotum. Psychic Rogue. Spellthief.

Assassin Rogue. Factotum. Scout.

Magical Rogue Swordsage.

All good ideas, and you could certainly play most of those from the base class. (I figure some old-schooler will want to play something that has "Assassin" on the label, even if it's a one-level dip.


Shifter Wildshape Ranger or Druid? Battle Sorcerer making use of Alter Self and other assorted single-form transformation spells? This is, admittedly, harder to balance from level 1, given how D&D does shapeshifting, although not impossible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328962-The-Beastman-Revised-%28PEACH%29&p=16914183#post16914183).

For the wildshaper, I figure if you're going Druid you don't need to prestige out. Wildshape Variant Ranger as its written, you're waiting until level 6, which I think we'd both say is too long. I'm thinking something at level 3 or so that gives you access to one animal form, and maybe an upgraded form at 6, and something with easy access from either Ranger or Barbarian, and not impossible to access for Sorcerer or Bard (maybe the Bard turns into a big songbird or a housecat or whatever).

You're saying you wouldn't want prestige classes in E6, essentially. I'd like to have the option ready.

Gnorman
2015-01-26, 05:26 PM
I tend to see the hybrids as something you develop into, not something you start as. Also, you're approaching this as an experienced roleplayer. What about your character, who's a fresh-faced noob straight out of training?

People can rationally disagree over whether a level 1 character is "straight out of training" or has had some, even extensive life experiences. An elf is practically two human lifetimes old when they start their adventuring "career." Experience is a metagame concept, though some people attach meaning to that zero.

johnbragg
2015-01-26, 05:50 PM
And while Grod mentioned some base classes that fulfill your needs, I get the feeling from your post ("I want to stay much closer to base classes) that you're looking to operate in a core-only environment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you're right. But PCs are special snowflakes anyway, so if a player really wants to play a late-3.5 class or a pathfinder advanced class, you try to make it fit.


I do like creating E6-friendly versions of prestige classes. I'm worried that because you're trying to keep builds to a 4/4 split, you end up with a conspicuous dead level that doesn't progress the abilities of either class; why not have a 2-level prestige class that fully progresses the class ability, but requires 2 levels in both base classes? Accomplishes the same thing, doesn't discriminate between wizard and sorcerer casting (both get 2nd level spells) but admittedly delays special abilities unique to the archetype.

That's why. If the "synergy ability" isn't enough to make the 1st level not a dead level, it's probably not much of a prestige class. Every arrow is a magic arrow? Cast a spell through my sword? Ranged legerdemain? I'd say those are worth one level of not advancing your base classes. And I think those are abilities that could come online at Character Level 3 without being unbalancing.

EDIT: And the Sorcerer still gets second level spells, he loses one caster level for the noncaster class and one for the Prestige Class Level 1. Wizard gets them a level sooner, but that's not new.


Personally, I'm attracted to a 3-level prestige class in the E6 environment, for three reasons: (1) equal split between base class and prestige class is nice, symmetry-wise,

I don't think symmetry should be a goal here.


(2) it allows you to impose feat requirements that non-human characters can complete, and (3) it better allows for prestige classes that aren't hybrids. While you can reduce most prestige classes to a hybrid to some extent (Blackguard seems to be Fighter + a dash of Rogue & Cleric), what about the less obvious ones? Can Archmage fit into the E6 environment?

Er, I don't think so. Your 6th level Wizard _IS_ an Archmage.


As to your second question: how much is too much? How little is too little? There are quite a few concepts that aren't covered by base classes, from "dedicated shapeshifter" to "gish" to "warlock." At a certain point, if you're going to make a 4-level prestige class for each of them, why not just go two steps further and make a base class?

Well, some of them would be base classes. Some of them wouldn't need more than one or two levels. And some of them would be base classes.

I think my OP was directed at, did my list have any glaring omissions--Blackguard was one.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-01-26, 06:05 PM
I tend to see the hybrids as something you develop into, not something you start as. Also, you're approaching this as an experienced roleplayer. What about your character, who's a fresh-faced noob straight out of training?
He has newb-level abilities. The thief-mage can cast cantrips, or maybe a single first level spell. The shapeshifter knows a single alternate form. You can still have the development in a single base class.

To be honest, I don't think any hybrid should require a prestige class. PrCs shouldn't be required to fill certain concepts. Instead, they should be about customizing a character, helping him develop in unique ways. You shouldn't need to go Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster-- that's still a generic character. If you're going to take a prestige class, you should be going Arcane Trickster/Favored of Olidama, or Arcane Trickster/Demonblooded, or something like that. The PrC should be an optional way to add flavor to your character, rather than a mechanical necessity.


E6 doesn't have to stop the campaign at 6, just the level progression. And it makes levelling up into the prestige class a bigger deal, I think.
Oh, I know but it usually takes a lot more real-time to get to that point, just because level progression stops there.

Gnorman
2015-01-26, 06:11 PM
Okay, fair enough. I can see the logic in approaching it they way you're doing - archetypes don't work supremely well for hybrid classes. You could make the Arcane Archer archetype easily enough in a vacuum, but do you apply it to the Fighter chassis or the Wizard chassis? What about sorcerers, rangers, etc.? What do you have to change in order to make it more base-class-agnostic? Prestige class has the advantage of sidestepping those issues.

As for glaring omissions, I see the following concepts as having a lot of traction:

Int-based Fighter/Rogue: see Duelist, Swashbuckler, etc.

Non-bard "versatile" class: see Factotum or Chameleon

Some kind of "master summoner" class, kind of a Cleric/Mage hybrid: see Malconvoker or Thaumaturge

"Power for a price" caster: Warlock, Binder

Fighter/Bard hybrid: Marshal, Warlord

johnbragg
2015-01-26, 07:52 PM
As for glaring omissions, I see the following concepts as having a lot of traction:

Int-based Fighter/Rogue: see Duelist, Swashbuckler, etc.

Non-bard "versatile" class: see Factotum or Chameleon

Some kind of "master summoner" class, kind of a Cleric/Mage hybrid: see Malconvoker or Thaumaturge

"Power for a price" caster: Warlock, Binder

Fighter/Bard hybrid: Marshal, Warlord

Int-based martial isn't something D&D has traditionally supported well. It also strikes me as a base class--something you trained for years to do, not something you branched into as you got out into the world. Either Tome of Battle, or Warrior//Expert with a bonus feat to add Int to attack rolls and Sneak Attack.

Non-Bard versatile--Factotum? Fighter-Rogue-Adept? Bard ACF that doesn't sing? Just be a bard already?

Master Summoner--Part of the attraction of E6 is that it sets Core back to the point where it's at least kind of balanced. Not sure I want to bring in an option to be better than a Wiz/Sor 3-Cleric 3, plus a synergy ability.

Or if it's just about the summoning, Master Summoner could be a one-level dip class.
Let's see, take Spell Focus-Conjuration at 1st level, Augment Summoning at 3rd. The Augment Summoning feat qualifies you to take a level of "Master Summoner", with the Extended Summoning feature from the Thaumaturge PRC. No advancement of your spellcasting level.

"Power for a price"--I'd say just let them play a warlock or a binder, or take a level of warlock if it comes up later.

Fighter/Bard hybrid--that's getting pretty specific. It's a thing, the inspiring combat leader. Maybe a feat, maybe a one-level dip class.