Eldritch Scion Magus...how to make it work?

[Abrasis Mindlef]

Quite recently, I've encountered the opinion that the Eldritch Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/eldritch-scion) Magus archetype is *terrible*.


As such, I've decided to take a look at it and gauge ist strengths and weaknesses.


Eldritch Scion
Unlike typical magi, eldritch scions do not study tomes of magic or spend time learning to combine martial and magical skills. Rather, eldritch scions find that their spells and abilities come to them instinctively.

combines with

Staff Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/staff-magus)


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So, a build:

Human (Eldritch Scion, Staff Magus) Magus

15 PB:

17 STR 13 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA

Alternate Racial traits:

Traits: Focused Mind(+2 Concentration), Reactionary(+2 init)

FCB: +HP

1st: Eldritch Pool(3/3), Mystic Focus, Spell Combat(req.: MF), Cantrips, Bloodline(Arcane), Bloodline Familiar(Fox (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/fox); Mauler Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype)); (Quarterstaff Master), Spirit's Gift, Mauler's Endurance
2nd: Spellstrike
3rd: Magus Arcana(Spell-Scars); Dodge
4th: Eldritch Pool(Arcane Pool, 4/4), Bloodline ability(Arcane Bloodrage), +1 STR
5th: (Improved Unarmed Strike), Crane Style
6th: Magus Arcana(Aquatic Agility)
7th: Quarterstaff Defense; Crane Wing
8th: Bloodline ability(Greater Arcane Bloodrage), Bloodline spell(Magic Missile), Spell combat(without MF), +1 DEX
9th: Magus Arcana(Disruptive); Combat Reflexes
10th: Staff Weapon, Bloodline spell(Invisibility)
11th: Spell recall(???); (Rime Spell), Crane Riposte
12th: Bloodline ability(Caster's scourge), Bloodline spell(Lightning Bolt), Magus Arcana(Spellbreaker);+1 DEX
13th: Quarterstaff Defense(+3); Teleport Tactician
14th: Bloodline spell(Dimension Door), Improved Spell Combat
15th: Magus Arcana(Bane Blade); WF(Quarterstaff)
16th: Bloodline ability(True Arcane Bloodrage), Counterstrike, +1 DEX
17th: Spontaneus Metafocus(Shocking Grasp), Intensify Spell
18th: Magus Arcana(Quickened Magic); Greater Spell Combat
19th: WS(Quarterstaff)
20th: Bloodline ability(Caster's Bane), +1 DEX




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Hmm...yeah, the Eldritch Scion looks okay, once it gets the various bloodline abilities that turn Mystic Focus into a short-Duration personal buff.


Feedback on the build would be greatly appreciated.

[Kurald Galain]

Quite recently, I've encountered the opinion that the Eldritch Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/eldritch-scion) Magus archetype is *terrible*.
Ok, so what arguments are given for this opinion?


As such, I've decided to take a look at it and gauge ist strengths and weaknesses.
Nice to hear that. Could you please share with us what you've gauged?

Or did you want feedback on your build?

[avr]

One of the eldritch scion's weaknesses is that as a spontaneous caster metamagic takes a full round action, making its metamagic incompatible with spell combat. You can get around it with a feat tax - Spontaneous Metafocus - in whichever 1st level spell is your favorite to zap people with, like Shocking Grasp or Frostbite. Your build might want this and of course some metamagic to use with it.

Evolved Familiar has a 13 Int prereq. You'll be well short of that at 3rd level. Dump it, you don't need it, to make room for that first metamagic feat.

One advantage it has is that ending mystical focus doesn't fatigue you. A bloodline power which works 1/bloodrage can happen more than once a combat for your character. Might be worth considering.

[Larkas]

Quite recently, I've encountered the opinion that the Eldritch Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/eldritch-scion) Magus archetype is *terrible*.

It is very short of *terrible*. It is weaker than a regular Magus, though not by much, and it might fit some playstyles/backstories better. It is, in other words, kind of like the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is weaker than a Wizard, but it is by no means weak.

Oh, and Eldritch Scion does combine with archetypes other than Staff Magus. Spellblade changes spellstrike, which Eldritch Scion doesn't even touch, and Bladebound and Greensting Slayer only double down on Arcane Pool. The Eldritch Scion archetype is very clear regarding modifications to Arcane Pool:


Eldritch Pool (Su)

(...)

This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.

Bolded for your convenience. Go ahead and give those two archetypes a read. Their modifications to Arcane Pool are entirely compatible with the Eldritch Scion's Eldritch Pool.

[stack]

Shh, we are all trying to forget spellblade and greensting slayer!

[Abrasis Mindlef]

Thanks for the replies; I hadn't considered the metamagic difficulties for an Eldritch Scion(and I wasn't aware of the Workaround via Spontaneus Metafocus).


I'll try to complete the build and estimate how it compares to other Magus concepts I've seen before I can make a judgement about the quality of the Eldritch Scion Magus archetype.

[Orsyn]

It is very short of *terrible*. It is weaker than a regular Magus, though not by much, and it might fit some playstyles/backstories better. It is, in other words, kind of like the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is weaker than a Wizard, but it is by no means weak.

Oh, and Eldritch Scion does combine with archetypes other than Staff Magus. Spellblade changes spellstrike, which Eldritch Scion doesn't even touch, and Bladebound and Greensting Slayer only double down on Arcane Pool. The Eldritch Scion archetype is very clear regarding modifications to Arcane Pool:



Bolded for your convenience. Go ahead and give those two archetypes a read. Their modifications to Arcane Pool are entirely compatible with the Eldritch Scion's Eldritch Pool.

Per RAW, two archetypes are incompatible if they replace or alter the same class features. It's a stupid rule and most tables I know house rule it away, it's there nonetheless.

Edit: reread your post and I get your interpretation, though I don't know how many DMs would look at it that way

That said, it does have its strengths. Primarily: bloodline powers. A host of various buffs, many of which can be extremely worthwhile even for just two rounds. Aberrant's first two powers are pretty amazing for a magus, and I'm a huge personal fan of the Arcane bloodline for its sheer volume of options (I've combined it with some of the magus anti-caster options for a pretty entertaining npc before).

The tradeoff comes in the form of spell combat. Prior to level 8, an eldritch scion may only spell combat while in a state of arcane focus (i.e. for two rounds per point of arcane pool). Frankly, in my builds I basically ignore spell combat before then. If I'm running a strength-based eldritch scion, I just pick up a two-handed weapon and go to town.

[Larkas]

Per RAW, two archetypes are incompatible if they replace or alter the same class features. It's a stupid rule and most tables I know house rule it away, it's there nonetheless.

I know, I know. It is a stupid rule, but mostly inapplicable to this case: specific trumps general, and in this case it seems like Eldritch Pool was specifically tailored to stack with other modifications to Arcane Pool.

EDIT: Just caught your edit.


Edit: reread your post and I get your interpretation, though I don't know how many DMs would look at it that way

Well, it seems like PFS is being played like that (eh, anedoctal evidence and all that), so until some official ruling comes out, that's as official as it gets.

[atemu1234]

If you're willing to dip into 3.5 (and Dragon Magazine, no less) you might want to look into the Prepared Spellcaster feat. Essentially, you can prepare your spells instead of casting them spontaneously, which allows you to use metamagic more effectively. Mores the point, you don't have to worry about the entire "prepare all my slots" thing, you only need to prepare the ones you know you'll need.

As to a melee bloodline, why not go for the Orc Bloodline from Orcs of unspellable material plane whose name starts with a G?

[Abrasis Mindlef]

I've found more archetypes that stacks with Eldritch Scion - the Card Caster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype) and Kapenia Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kapenia-dancer)

Kapenia Dancer(or "Bladed Scarf Dancer", as PFSRD calls it) is basically a simpler form of the Kensai archetype that doesn't replace much.

As such, you can stack it with Eldritch Scion and get CHA to AC!
(But only when wielding a bladed scarf - BOOO)
...and the Spell Dancer(Elf) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/spell-dancer-magus-elf) archetype stacks as well...


Time for a new build!

1/2-elf (Eldritch Scion, Spell Dancer) Magus

15 PB:

14 STR (5 pts)
12 DEX (2 pts)
12 CON (2 pts)
13 INT (3 pts)
7 WIS (-4 pts)
17 CHA (7 pts, +2 racial)

Alternate Racial traits: Dual Minded(+2 Will)

Traits: Focused Mind(+2 Concentration), Threatening Defender(Reduces CE Penalty by 1)

FCB: +HP

1st: Eldritch Pool(4/4), Mystic Focus, Spell Combat(with Focus), Cantrips, Bloodline(Arcane), Bloodline Familiar(Ioun Wyrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/ioun-wyrd); Protector Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/protector-familiar-archetype)), Spelldance(+2/+10'); Spirit's Gift
2nd: Spellstrike
3rd: Magus Arcana(Wand Wielder); EWP(Whip)
4th: Bloodline ability(Energy Resistance/Spider Climb/Prot from Arrows/Blur with Focus), +1 CHA
5th: Spelldance(+4/+20' & Fly/Haste/Blur 1/dance), Arcane Movement; Combat Expertise
6th: Magus Arcana(Arcane Scent)
7th: Dance of Avoidance(+2); Improved Reposition
8th: Bloodline ability(Haste/Displacement with Focus), Bloodline spell(Magic Missile), Spell combat(without Focus), +1 CHA
9th: Spelldance(+6/+30' & Dimension Door 1/dance), Magus Arcana(Disruptive); Tactical Reposition
10th: Fighter Training(1/2 lvl), Bloodline spell(Invisibility)
11th: Spell recall(???); (WF(Whip)), Whip Mastery
12th: Bloodline ability(Extra AoOs vs spellcasters with Focus), Bloodline spell(Lightning Bolt), Magus Arcana(Spellbreaker); +1 CHA
13th: Spelldance(+8/+40' & Freedom of Movement 1/dance), Greater Dance of Avoidance(+4), Improved Whip Mastery
14th: Bloodline spell(Dimension Door), Improved Spell Combat
15th: Magus Arcana(Flamboyant Arcana); Combat Reflexes
16th: Bloodline ability(Beast Shape IV/Form of the Dragon I/Transformation with Focus), Counterstrike; +1 CHA
17th: Spelldance(+10/+50'); Celestial Obedience(Arqueros), Teleport Tactician
18th: Magus Arcana(Arcane Deed: Evasive); Greater Spell Combat
19th: GWF(Whip)
20th: Bloodline ability(Defensive casting always provokes AoO); +1 CHA

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1st: You have 16 AC(+4 chain shirt, +1 DEX, +1 from familiar) and can use Spelldance for increased movespeed/AC vs AoOs. Mystic Focus allows you to use Spell combat. Spirit's Gift(Stone) gives your familiar DR 5/adamantine.
2nd: Spellstrike. You don't need Mystic Focus to use it!
3rd: Wand Wielder + EWP(Whip) unlocks combat maneuvers at range. With a Wand of True Strike, you can trip/disarm/reposition/steal to your heart's content; this requires Mystic focus.
4th: Mystic Focus improves - you can now self-buff yourself for 2 turns with a swift action.
5th: Spell dance improves - 1/dance, you can use a swift action to gain a buff for 1 turn. Combat Expertise works at -0/+1.
6th: Arcane Scent allows you to sniff out Mages.
7th: +2 Insight bonus to AC, +2 to Reposition.
8th: Mystic Focus improves - your self-buffs increase. You can now use Spell combat all the time, even if not focused.
9th: Spell dance improves - 1/dance, you can use Dimension Door as swift action instead of a 5th-lvl buff). With Tactical reposition, you can finally dump enemies into Pits, throw them off cliffs, into lava or acid.
11th: A useless Spell recall; and Whip Mastery allows you to use the whip to deal damage!
12th: Mystic Focus improves - you have Combat reflexes vs spellcasters. Spellbreaker allows you to AoO mages that fail to cast defensively.
13th: Spell dance improves - 1/dance, you can gain Freedom of Movement for 1d4 turns instead of DDoor or a 5th-lvl buff; +4 insight to AC; Improved Whip mastery allows you to threaten with a whip; and you can disarm + yoink small objects. (light weapons, holy symbols, bucklers & light shields, wands...)
15th: Finally, Combat Reflexes!
16th: Mystic Focus improves again - Transformation improves your BAB and grants +4 enhancement to all physical stats; but you need to use UMD if you still want to use Spell combat during Focus.
17th: Celestial Obedience(Arqueros) and Teleport Tactician add three more AoO triggers - if someone bullrushes you, if someone charges you, if someone attempts to teleport.
18th: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Evasion as long as we have 1 point remains in the Eldritch Pool.
20th: Mystic Focus improves again - casting defensively always provokes, unless the caster has CL 20+.

[olorin00]

Combat Expertise works at -0/+1.


Is that just a spelling error or did I missed something? (i.e. how can you get no malus and a bonus from combat expertise?)

EDIT: hum I just discovered the blade tutor's spirit spell, is that how you do it?

PS: btw as an half-elf you can take the Ancestral Arms alternative racial traits to get whip proficiency at level 1.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread necromancy.