Totemist / Unarmed Swordsage

[Kesnit]

I came up with an idea for a back-up build for a game I'm in, but am not sure if this will actually work the way I think it will. (My original back-up build - Swordsage/Bloodclaw Master - overlaps too much with the TWF Rogue.)

Human Totemist 8/Unarmed Swordsage 1 (Taking SS at LVL 9 to max out level of maneuvers I can take.)

Questions
1) I've always seen people say "take unarmed SS instead of Monk since you can wear armor." But ToB says the SS gains Monk unarmed progression and loses Light Armor. I get Light Armor from Totemist, so I'm not actually losing that, but wearing armor on an unarmed SS won't affect my SS maneuvers, right?

2) Do I have to take Improved Unarmed Strike, or is that considered part of a "monk's unarmed strike progression?"

3) Do the unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for my Totemist melds?

4) Is there a magic item that gives Pounce? (Doesn't matter what slot. Our budget is far about WBL, so I can always put the ability on a different slot to keep it away from where I can bind.) Or some other easy way to get it? (LA +1 template or a 1 level dip would work. I don't want to go higher.)

[atemu1234]

I came up with an idea for a back-up build for a game I'm in, but am not sure if this will actually work the way I think it will. (My original back-up build - Swordsage/Bloodclaw Master - overlaps too much with the TWF Rogue.)

Human Totemist 8/Unarmed Swordsage 1 (Taking SS at LVL 9 to max out level of maneuvers I can take.)

Can I ask why you didn't just go for Totemist 6? That way you get access to max level maneuvers? (Though I am inexperienced with Incarnum)


Questions
1) I've always seen people say "take unarmed SS instead of Monk since you can wear armor." But ToB says the SS gains Monk unarmed progression and loses Light Armor. I get Light Armor from Totemist, so I'm not actually losing that, but wearing armor on an unarmed SS won't affect my SS maneuvers, right?

It won't affect maneuvers, no. But you do get wisdom to AC, unless I am mistaken.


2) Do I have to take Improved Unarmed Strike, or is that considered part of a "monk's unarmed strike progression?"

There's a bit of RAW out there that says that they count as both manufactured and natural weapons. And then there's another one that stops improved natural attack from helping out unarmed strikes (because that totally needed the nerfbat). So I don't really know the state of the union on that.


3) Do the unarmed strikes count as natural weapons for my Totemist melds?

They should, yes, at least as far as any reasonable DM is concerned.


4) Is there a magic item that gives Pounce? (Doesn't matter what slot. Our budget is far about WBL, so I can always put the ability on a different slot to keep it away from where I can bind.) Or some other easy way to get it? (LA +1 template or a 1 level dip would work. I don't want to go higher.)

I don't think so. Pounce is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, so maybe you should go with a dip of Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for the nice little boost?

[Xerlith]

Pounce in an item? A continuous Lion's Charge item costs 3x2x4x2000gp. That's... 48k gp. A lot for something you could as easily gain from a Barbarian level.

Use activated is cheaper, with only 3x2x2000gp = 12k gp. Still, that's a considerable chunk out of a lvl9 character's WBL.

[Kesnit]

Can I ask why you didn't just go for Totemist 6? That way you get access to max level maneuvers? (Though I am inexperienced with Incarnum)

I'm building more towards Totemist rather than Swordsage. Level 10 will be back to Totemist. (Totemist 9/SS 1) I'm only taking SS for the unarmed attack; the maneuvers are just a nice bonus. (Depending on how long the campaign goes, I may pick up another SS level later to get more maneuvers.)


It won't affect maneuvers, no. But you do get wisdom to AC, unless I am mistaken.

Even regular Swordsages get that. And WIS is a dump stat for a Totemist. At most, I'll have a +1 modifier.


I don't think so. Pounce is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, so maybe you should go with a dip of Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for the nice little boost?

Using Barbarian only gives me 1 rage/day, which means only 1 combat encounter with Pounce. (The game is hack-and-slash heavy, so most of our encounters are combat.)


Pounce in an item? A continuous Lion's Charge item costs 3x2x4x2000gp. That's... 48k gp. A lot for something you could as easily gain from a Barbarian level.

Use activated is cheaper, with only 3x2x2000gp = 12k gp. Still, that's a considerable chunk out of a lvl9 character's WBL.

As I said, our wealth is well above WBL. Specifically, 77000 gp. A custom Wondrous Item may be my best option, then.

[Vhaidara]

Using Barbarian only gives me 1 rage/day, which means only 1 combat encounter with Pounce. (The game is hack-and-slash heavy, so most of our encounters are combat.)

SLT Barb just gives you pounce, not just when raging.

[Red Fel]

If you're taking Swordsage for the unarmed, why not just take IUS? I happen to like Warblade more for a natural weapons build, and IUS/SUS can make that terrifyingly effective. Not to mention that it gives you access to Punishing Stance and Stormguard Warrior, which are just abusive.

[Kesnit]

SLT Barb just gives you pounce, not just when raging.

AHHH! Now I see it. I thought "Spirit Lion Totem" was "Lion Totem" from UA. I kept rereading that entry, trying to figure out how anyone got "Pounce" from that. :smallredface: Now I found "Spirit Lion Totem" in Complete Champion, and I feel like an idiot.


If you're taking Swordsage for the unarmed, why not just take IUS? I happen to like Warblade more for a natural weapons build, and IUS/SUS can make that terrifyingly effective. Not to mention that it gives you access to Punishing Stance and Stormguard Warrior, which are just abusive.

Because I forgot SUS existed, and was looking at only doing 1d3 damage.

[Vhaidara]

Fear not, many a brave soul has made this mistake. The best thing is, if you take 2 levels in barbarian, you can be a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian. Now there's a mouthful for describing a class you only took 2 levels in.

[Kesnit]

Fear not, many a brave soul has made this mistake. The best thing is, if you take 2 levels in barbarian, you can be a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian. Now there's a mouthful for describing a class you only took 2 levels in.

*chuckle* As nice as that sounds, I think my DM would kill me if I came in with that.

[Chronos]

Unarmed strikes are definitely natural weapons, for everyone. Monks have an additional ability that lets them treat them as manufactured weapons, in addition to being natural. There's no rule that says that Improved Natural Attack can't be used for unarmed strikes (there might be a FAQ response or something against it, but those are written by people with very tenuous knowledge of the rules).

And you don't need to dip or buy anything for Pounce. Just bind Sphinx Claws to your hands, and you've got it. It only works with natural weapons, but since those happen to be what you're using entirely anyway, there's no problem.

[Kesnit]

And you don't need to dip or buy anything for Pounce. Just bind Sphinx Claws to your hands, and you've got it. It only works with natural weapons, but since those happen to be what you're using entirely anyway, there's no problem.

I'm trying to avoid a situation where I have to have a specific meld. That's the same reason I'm adding a way to have natural weapons that are not melds. Sorry, I should have said that before.

[KingSmitty]

Fear not, many a brave soul has made this mistake. The best thing is, if you take 2 levels in barbarian, you can be a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian. Now there's a mouthful for describing a class you only took 2 levels in.

If you're going to pounce drop the Whirling Frenzy and just be a Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian, add in a single level of Berserk (deities and demigods) and for 3 levels you get pounce, and 1/day +4 str/con along with 1/day +6 str/con along with Berserk's fast movement and win.

(yes both rage abilities stack)

[Red Fel]

I'm trying to avoid a situation where I have to have a specific meld. That's the same reason I'm adding a way to have natural weapons that are not melds. Sorry, I should have said that before.

One thing I'd suggest, then, is going with Silverbrow Human instead of normal Human. It's a net gain, for the most part, and more importantly, it opens up Draconic Soulmelds. The great thing about these is that several of them give you natural weapons without requiring a bind. That increases your flexibility, without requiring any particular meld or bind.

[SinsI]

I'm trying to avoid a situation where I have to have a specific meld. That's the same reason I'm adding a way to have natural weapons that are not melds. Sorry, I should have said that before.

You already have:
1) access to Sphinx Claws/bind to hands slot
2) Sudden Leap Maneuver from Swordsage that grants you swift action movement, so you can move and full-attack.
3) Martial Strikes that only need Standard Action from Swordsage

Why waste resources on Pounce at all?

[Kesnit]

You already have:
1) access to Sphinx Claws/bind to hands slot

As I said, I am trying to avoid having to have a specific meld shaped.


2) Sudden Leap Maneuver from Swordsage that grants you swift action movement, so you can move and full-attack.

Neither Jump nor Tumble are class skills for Totemist, so the checks for that maneuver would be low. Also, if I wanted to use it more than once in an encounter, I have to recover it, which requires Adaptive Style. I don't have a feat slot for that. Assuming silverbrow human, my feats are (1) IUS (1-Racial) Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots) (3) Multiattack (6) Improved Natural Attack (fist), and (9) Superior Unarmed Strike.


3) Martial Strikes that only need Standard Action from Swordsage

Why waste resources on Pounce at all?

Flexibility and options. With only 1 Swordsage level, I only have 4 maneuvers readied and I can't recover them until after combat. After reading the recommendation in this thread, I am thinking about ditching Swordsage (since IUS/SUS will do what I want better) and using a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian level. (I'd love to take Wolf Totem Barbarian as well, but I think my DM would kill me if I did.)

[Red Fel]

You really kind of need Adaptive Style if you're relying on Swordsage maneuvers. It's a feat tax, like Natural Spell for Druids.

Since you plan on taking IUS anyway, why not just take Warblade? I'm still not clear why you want Swordsage more.

[WhamBamSam]

One thing I'd suggest, then, is going with Silverbrow Human instead of normal Human. It's a net gain, for the most part, and more importantly, it opens up Draconic Soulmelds. The great thing about these is that several of them give you natural weapons without requiring a bind. That increases your flexibility, without requiring any particular meld or bind.Silverbrow Human also lets you get a non-soulmeld tail attack if you can spare a 1st level feat on Dragon Tail.


As I said, I am trying to avoid having to have a specific meld shaped.Since you're taking so much Totemist anyway, you could potentially take Double Chakra somewhere, which will at least make it a bit less inconvenient to always have a particular meld bound. It'll still eat into your melds and binds for the day, but at least the chakra will still be open.


Neither Jump nor Tumble are class skills for Totemist, so the checks for that maneuver would be low. Also, if I wanted to use it more than once in an encounter, I have to recover it, which requires Adaptive Style. I don't have a feat slot for that. Assuming silverbrow human, my feats are (1) IUS (1-Racial) Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots) (3) Multiattack (6) Improved Natural Attack (fist), and (9) Superior Unarmed Strike. You can always trade Ride away for Tumble thanks to Skilled City Dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), and taking one extra Tiger Claw maneuver with Martial Study would make Jump a class skill. Shame that Martial Stance doesn't also do so, or you could also get Leaping Dragon stance in one fell swoop.

There are never enough feats of course, so you might not want to do all these things.

[Kesnit]

You really kind of need Adaptive Style if you're relying on Swordsage maneuvers. It's a feat tax, like Natural Spell for Druids.

Since you plan on taking IUS anyway, why not just take Warblade? I'm still not clear why you want Swordsage more.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Since IUS/SUS takes care of why I was planning on Swordsage, my current thought it to not take any ToB classes. I'm now thinking either Totemist 7/Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, or Totemist 8/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1.


Since you're taking so much Totemist anyway, you could potentially take Double Chakra somewhere, which will at least make it a bit less inconvenient to always have a particular meld bound. It'll still eat into your melds and binds for the day, but at least the chakra will still be open.

It requires meldshaper 9, so it will be a while before I can take it. But I will keep it in mind.