Ways to make a Drow Paladin work?(lore-wise)

[Yagyujubei]

My buddy is gonna start up an all Drow underdark campaign in about a week and we'll likely be rolling characters/getting a campaign background on wed. or Thu.

so here's my problem, we're all supposed to be true to drow lore and society, and I don't recall ever reading of a drow paladin (evil or otherwise) in any FR literature (granted only stuff I've read concerning drow are WotSQ and LoD stuff).

I know I'm going to have to play a female, since of the players I'm most familiar with the workings of the drow and will be (hopefully) able to RP it correctly, so I was thinking of starting as a cleric and then spinning it as becoming like...a champion of lolth or something and going the fallen paladin class path, but it doesn't seem quite right. I feel like I can re-fluff this to make it but I just haven't gotten the idea quite right.

on a side note, I'm AFB but are there stats for a flail in the PHB or DMG or would I have to homebrew that as well. I was thinking Rapier/shield since Drow get +2 to DEX racially, but I feel like a flail would be way cooler.

[hamishspence]

Lolth wasn't the only deity the drow had in older lore. If you're bringing them back in your 5e campaign (perhaps it's set in the "past" of the FR world?), Kiaransalee makes a good drow Deity of Vengeance.

A Vengeance Paladin, specializing in avenging "crimes against the drow" might fit pretty well.

[Giant2005]

Paladin's aren't empowered by the Gods in 5e.
You don't have to be a female and you don't have to be affiliated with Lolth. All you have to do is have experienced some event significant enough to inspire you to take an Oath.

[hymer]

Paladin's aren't empowered by the Gods in 5e.

Unless something's changed radically, they are in FR, which the OP mentions as a source he's supposed to be faithful to.

[Yagyujubei]

sadly the setting is straight up menzoberranzan. If he hasn't changed it in the weekish that we last talked about it then we're going to be in an upper middle ranked house trying to advance to become one of the main houses as an over arching plot point.

and @giant: yeah, drow lore would stipulate that only females have access to diving magic, but they're all clerics rather than paladins so I'm trying to think of a way to fudge it slightly that would make sense.

[Shining Wrath]

Why are there drow? Because they Lost The War to the surface elves, whom they hate with fierce hatred, and were driven into the Underdark to suffer and brood.

If you can't get a Vengeance Oath Paladin who wears garments made from elven skin and elven hair out of that, you aren't trying. He strings his bow with fibers made from the dried viscera of elves. His holy symbol is made from elven bones tied together with those same visceral fibers. He spends his spare gold on scrying spells finding elven villages that need ravaging.

[hamishspence]

and @giant: yeah, drow lore would stipulate that only females have access to diving magic, but they're all clerics rather than paladins so I'm trying to think of a way to fudge it slightly that would make sense.

Male drow clerics of Lolth, while extremely rare, did exist in FR novels. Rai-guy in Servant of the Shard was one example.

[Yagyujubei]

Why are there drow? Because they Lost The War to the surface elves, whom they hate with fierce hatred, and were driven into the Underdark to suffer and brood.

If you can't get a Vengeance Oath Paladin who wears garments made from elven skin and elven hair out of that, you aren't trying. He strings his bow with fibers made from the dried viscera of elves. His holy symbol is made from elven bones tied together with those same visceral fibers. He spends his spare gold on scrying spells finding elven villages that need ravaging.

you're not reading my posts >< Lolth straight up WON'T give her divine power to a male drow. And if you live in a drow city (menzoberranzan in this case) you worship Lolth or you get murdered.

@Hamispence: no joke? that will help me out alot when "discussing" character possibilities with my DM buddy lol. I havent read those books in a long long time. I'll bet he's like literally the only one though lol.

[Shining Wrath]

you're not reading my posts >< Lolth straight up WON'T give her divine power to a male drow. And if you live in a drow city (menzoberranzan in this case) you worship Lolth or you get murdered.

@Hamispence: no joke? that will help me out alot when "discussing" character possibilities with my DM buddy lol. I havent read those books in a long long time.

So replace "he" with "she" throughout. Is there some requirement why Paladins have to be male? I still don't see why she can't be a Vengeance Paladin consumed with a desire to avenge the ancient offense of the elves against the drow.

[hamishspence]

If you can talk the DM into bringing the rest of the "drow pantheon" in - might help for diversity. I think Selvetarm's worship at least was tolerated in Menzoberranzan - he was basically a henchman of Lolth.

[Giant2005]

you're not reading my posts >< Lolth straight up WON'T give her divine power to a male drow. And if you live in a drow city (menzoberranzan in this case) you worship Lolth or you get murdered.
Lolth doesn't have any say in the matter whether your character is a Paladin or not. The best she could do would be arrange to have him murdered if she knows it happened and cares enough to bother.

[Yagyujubei]

Lolth doesn't have any say in the matter whether your character is a Paladin or not. The best she could do would be arrange to have him murdered if she knows it happened and cares enough to bother.

well that particular post was in response to a divine character being male.

my main concern with the whole paladin thing is that I can find any precedent for it in FR literature. Like i said, in Menzoberranzan you worship lolth or you're gonna die quick, so if i play a paladin, it will have to be a paladin of lolth.

and in the first place I don't understand how you're saying paladins don't have any connection to deities, even in 5e...how do they get their divine magic then? voodoo space jesus?

[DireSickFish]

You could have previously been an Oath palladin of Eilistraee in your back-story. And you sold them out to Lolth and the other Drow becing an Oathbreaker pally. This put you in Lolths good graces because you wiped out her foes with treachery from within. Can be boy or girl this way but the lore works best with a girl.

[mephnick]

and in the first place I don't understand how you're saying paladins don't have any connection to deities, even in 5e...how do they get their divine magic then? voodoo space jesus?

Strength of conviction, like the Pathfinder Inquisitor.

Also, wherever the hell other magic comes from. No one seems to care about that.

[Yagyujubei]

@diresickfish: That's a really good idea. I like the thought that I will start as an outsider and eventually murder the Matron mother and take her place hehe.

and honestly, I figured that conviction was what people would say about getting the divine power, but I don't know if that's a pill I can swallow. seems pretty unlikely that you would be able to perform miracles simply because you strongly believe it's the right thing to do. I feel like a god has to be in there somewhere.

if you thought about it from a stricly arcane standpoint I guess you could say that you've figured out a way to tap into divine power without a gods express blessing, much like wizards tap into the weave, but that would be painting a target on yourself I think.

[Shining Wrath]

Got into a long discussion on this topic elsewhere, and it seems that D&D Paladins do not explicitly worship a deity, except for atoning fallen Paladins.

I see no problem with a Vengeance Paladin of Lolth, as I've said. The Spider Queen desires nothing more than to be avenged upon Corellon Larethian for his numerous offenses. I am not entirely certain that such a person must be female - 5e Paladins have some overlap of the spell list with clerics, but also get spells clerics do not and vice-versa. And it's not explicitly stated that a Paladin prays to receive their spells. So I am not sure Paladins are divine casters any more than Rangers are Druids.

Of course, talk to your DM.

If you don't want to be avenging the ancient crime of the elves, you could be someone who is fanatically loyal to [name of matriarch] and [name of house], and has sworn a terrible oath to avenge any slight to the honor, pride, and status of [matriarch and/or house]. You can be the matriarch's [EDIT: female] Luca Brasi (cf Godfather).

[DireSickFish]

He could be a Melee Magthere graduate that used his palladin power to gain the upper hand on his opponents. His strikes just hurt more. Any spells he cats its clearly a magic item. Perhaps he secretly worships one of the other drow deities like the other posters suggested, but still says plenty of prayers to Lolth. She is all about chaos, and sometimes that means letting weeds grow so that her followers don't grow complacent.

Heck these days Drow see Drizzt as blessed by Lolth because of how much pure chaos he has caused in his homeland. You don't have to worship Lolth for her to let you get by, just don't get caught.

I feel you on needing a divine source for a pally. It's been so intrinsic to the lore, and is everywhere in FR. I'm a lot more open to not needing a deity when in a more generic setting. Everyone has a deity already or they go to the wall in FR so you might as well be a pally of that deity.

[Drakefall]

Male drow clerics of Lolth, while extremely rare, did exist in FR novels. Rai-guy in Servant of the Shard was one example.


@Hamispence: no joke? that will help me out alot when "discussing" character possibilities with my DM buddy lol. I havent read those books in a long long time. I'll bet he's like literally the only one though lol.

He speaks truly. I think there was also some male drow warrior who Lolth spoke to in dreams or some junk as some point in some book, which is entirely vague and unhelpful, but there is indeed precedence for dude clerics of Lolth. :smalltongue:

In 5e the fluff of a female drow cleric of Lolth and a female drow paladin of Lolth can really be pretty interchangeable. Both are (un)holy warriors empowered by their dark goddess. Mechanically one is more martial and one is more spellcasty.

So out of game you're character is a female drow acolyte (or whatever background) paladin. In game she's an ordained warrior priestess of Lolth, granted divine magics from her goddess, just like all the clerics.

[Yagyujubei]

hmm yeah, I guess warrior priestess could just as easily fit in the paladin chassis as the cleric one...I do like that fallen paladin that gets into lolths good graces through betraying some group of elves, but I feel like that would be hard to swing because a Drow would likely never be trusted enough to do that, and would have to have been a "good" paladin before falling as well as be living on the surface.

maybe she could be from one of the other large drow cities like Ched Nassad or something and have cause the fall of a house...that would be kinda cool.

thanks for all the input btw I appreciate it.

[DireSickFish]

hmm yeah, I guess warrior priestess could just as easily fit in the paladin chassis as the cleric one...I do like that fallen paladin that gets into lolths good graces through betraying some group of elves, but I feel like that would be hard to swing because a Drow would likely never be trusted enough to do that, and would have to have been a "good" paladin before falling as well as be living on the surface.

maybe she could be from one of the other large drow cities like Ched Nassad or something and have cause the fall of a house...that would be kinda cool.

thanks for all the input btw I appreciate it.

Well Eilistraee is the good god of the Drow. She let herself be banished with Lolth by Corellon when the drow were cast out so that they could some day find redemption. There followers are the "good drow" and those that aren't drow are going to literally be the most accepting people to drow. While they like dancing under moonlight, perhaps this group is not ready to make the full transition to the surface for the persecution and dangers that entails.

I would have her grown up as an Eilistraeean in a drow group that lives close to the surface. Then you feel like Lolth really has the right idea, feel like an outcast amongst the surfacers. And ern your way into the city.

[Safety Sword]

You have stumbled onto an interesting back story (perhaps without realising it).

You could still be a male drow paladin who outwardly seemingly makes all of the correct devotions to Lolth, however he actually worships another deity and has a secret agenda (perhaps Kiaransalee as previously mentioned). Balancing the intrigue of avoiding the clerics of Lolth who hunt such folk and the will to live up to the oath sword to Kiaransalee would make an particularly interesting character with a DM who enjoys a bit of intrigue woven into the campaign.

Plus, at some stage you'll get to make an awesome reveal. Or die trying.

[Naanomi]

One could explore the concept of 'a greater evil'; and be a Drow who follows an ancient; ultimately multiracial tradition of Vengeance Paladins dedicated to destroying the Illithid or Beholders or some-such 'even worse than the drow Underdark race'

[MeeposFire]

You could be the last surviving member of a house that was targeted to be destroyed by another house. In Drow society it is ok to kill another house but you have to kill ALL of the nobles or else be destroyed in turn. So your Drow survived the purge and now you have a choice of either through some sort of secret that you are joined to another house and the house that eradicated yours still exists OR that house was destroyed in the aftermath and you want to go after their allies now.

Either way vengeance paladin (can be any deity you prefer) and your vengeance is oddly on other drow specifically these other houses. Loth will be pleased with the chaos you will create.

If you are with another house (or with Jarlaxle's group) then you need to remember that your identity is a secret when you do this. If you are out in the open and rebuilding your house you can use that for RP as well.

[Naanomi]

I was puzzling through whether it would be possible to have a 'functional drow' paladin *besides* Vengeance and Oathbreaker. Devotion is just right out, but I was thinking over Ancients. There are some pretty dark Fey out there; and there is such a thing as Drow druids that, while not completely part of society, are not hunted to extinction immediately and are allowed to exist on the outskirts of society.

While the actual tenets of the Oath of the Ancients, upon review, didn't fit an Underdark Druidic Paladin as I had first envisioned it but... hedonistic pleasure is a part of Drow culture... would it be possible to twist (without breaking) the Oath of Ancients to be an over-the-top, probably hyper-sexualized Chaotic Neutral pleasure-cultist?

[Seruvius]

Paladin of Vengeance, using the whole theme of "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?". Maybe be actually abhorred by the slave-ing aspects of drow society and wishing to change it. Or use ye nasty spider godess as the overall greater evil as your target, aiming to take her and her church down.

[Yagyujubei]

so I'm thinking of taking the Oathbreaker of ellastrae angle and doing something along the lines of a female drow that grew up near the surface with one of the "good" drow colonies and spent her young life pretty secluded in the colony adhering to their ideals and beliefs until one day when a drow scouting party from menzoberranzan happens upon it. in the ensuing battle her family and many of her friends are murdered and she kills a number of enemies herself.

as she cuts down her foes and see's dozens of people dying all around her she realizes this is the first time shes been truly happy in her whole life(bet you didn't think i was going this direction lol) and after feeling the pure ecstasy of bloodlust and chaos she can never go back to her old life. This is where Lolth takes notice of her just slightly, and lets say she starts her descent into madness.

as luck would have it she's finishing off some stragglers when she realizes a resemblance between her and one of the priestesses from Menzoberranzan. After days of torture she's able to extract the priestesses identity and much other information that will help her in her new life assuming the identity of the priestess in the paradise of chaos that she came from. Before leaving she destroys the colony somehow (I'm thinking cave in) to make sure there's no longer anyone alive that knows who she once was.

This gets Lolths attention, and through an intermediary Yochtlol she speaks to her, promising her power and blood beyond her wildest dreams if she becomes one of her agents of chaos. Obviously she immediately agrees and makes her way into Menzoberranzan to start her new life in one of the houses there, falling further into madness as the years go by. Her mission: to cause the fall of as many houses as possible in the name of her new god lolth. Whoever gets in the way of that goal will die.

so yeah...I'm hoping my buddy will let me play as a custom BG/flavor as an agent of lolth or chosen or champion or what have you, but either way it should be insanely fun to play. I'm gonna betray SO many people, and hopefully take control of and destroy multiple houses (at the same time if I'm a true baller)

[Envyus]

It should be noted that Lolth has had Male clerics in canon before. Ones that had her favor as well. Look no further then Lareth the Beautiful. A Male HUMAN Cleric of Lolth focusing more on her spider portfolio then her Drow portfolio.

[toapat]

Got into a long discussion on this topic elsewhere, and it seems that D&D Paladins do not explicitly worship a deity, except for atoning fallen Paladins.

In 4th Ed Paladins had to serve gods. That and the much healthier option of aethisim is barred in faerun.

Either way playing a Drow paladin, either for the goddess of spiders or lesbian moonlight dancing, you are playing a hardline backstabber and enforcer. Although eilistraee is problematic if you want to employ a decent portion of her scripture. The "no harm to other Drow" is pretty brutal to employ as part of your code.

[Myzz]

Talk to DM and other players and find out what specific drow your playing. If in Menzobranzen or other Lloth dominated area your stuck with that. And I'd agree that Lloth would not want any powerful male... so go female as a pally or be ready to be targeted by her eventually.

If your not stuck in Menzobranzen, then I'd suggest another Deity. I like Shar, and my human PC's in the campaign I'm running are Shar worshipper's and part of what they will eventually attempt to do is bring the Drow under Shar! Shar is the Mistress of Caverns, Dungeons and The Underdark! I've reflavored the Paladins radiant dmg as necrotic (Shar having Death as a domain), and using the Shadow Weave...

I would think it would be more fun to play against the Lloth domination of the system, if the DM and other players are on board.

[Yagyujubei]

so my buddy liked my proposed backstory and said we could run with it, having me take the identity of one of the daughters of the matron mother of house Tuin'Tarl (that's who we are, Rank 10) and that due to Lolths intervention no one can tell the difference....

EXCEPT the Matron mother herself. She totally knows, but straight up doesn't care because if I killed and replaced her daughter I'm a better Drow and will be more useful to her lol. Looking forward to some evil shenanigans.

[Envyus]

Paladins don't need to get their power from a god just their oath. You can still worship Lolth and get power from your oath instead of her.

[Yagyujubei]

Paladins don't need to get their power from a god just their oath. You can still worship Lolth and get power from your oath instead of her.

yeah i know, but my background has me being specifically sent by Lolth to cause chaos in Menzoberranzan, so while I'm not necessarily getting my power directly from her, I'm def. alright with doing what she want's me to do.

basically my character is a natural sociopathic murderer that Lolth took a liking to and pointed in a certain direction.

[goto124]

basically my character is a natural sociopathic murderer that Lolth took a liking to and pointed in a certain direction.

LOLth.



Sorry.

[Yagyujubei]

LOLth.



Sorry.

no need to be sorry, im laughing too, LOLth is love LOLth is life

[RedMage125]

you're not reading my posts >< Lolth straight up WON'T give her divine power to a male drow. And if you live in a drow city (menzoberranzan in this case) you worship Lolth or you get murdered.


As has been stated, Selvetarm is a servitor deity to Lolth, and her clergy accepts the presence of his clergy, so long as they remember that like their patrons, his clergy is subordinate to hers.

Re: male drow. Nothing in drow lore precludes you from being a male drow paladin of Lolth. Paladins are not clerics. CLERICS of Lolth are exclusively female. Paladins may be viewed as elite warriors, temple guards, or personal bodyguards of the clergy, granted a small amount of divine favor so as to better protect their charges. With how much those positions are subservient ones, why would Lolth not let a male take up such a position? Especially given what's already been told to you about how Paladins get their power from their oath rather than granted directly from a deity like a cleric.

As an alternative, you could go with the 4e fluff route, and say that your powers come from the ritual that invested you as a paladin. Perhaps a high-ranking cleric of Lolth could take them away in another ritual.

Even if you insist on treating a paladin's power like a cleric's, remember that the amount of "divine power" that a paladin throws around is less than that of a cleric. Paladins don't get high level spells, for example. Why would Lolth refuse to grant a small amount to a male if he was faithful to her and was devoted in a position of service to her favored clerics?

Especially in a society where males can be arcane spellcasters and more or less flout the authority of the clergy with impunity (re: Gromph, Phaeraun, the entire city of Sschindylryn). A Paladin would be a male with power that Lolth could CONTROL, and still be subservient to females.

[Yagyujubei]

As has been stated, Selvetarm is a servitor deity to Lolth, and her clergy accepts the presence of his clergy, so long as they remember that like their patrons, his clergy is subordinate to hers.

Re: male drow. Nothing in drow lore precludes you from being a male drow paladin of Lolth. Paladins are not clerics. CLERICS of Lolth are exclusively female. Paladins may be viewed as elite warriors, temple guards, or personal bodyguards of the clergy, granted a small amount of divine favor so as to better protect their charges. With how much those positions are subservient ones, why would Lolth not let a male take up such a position? Especially given what's already been told to you about how Paladins get their power from their oath rather than granted directly from a deity like a cleric.

As an alternative, you could go with the 4e fluff route, and say that your powers come from the ritual that invested you as a paladin. Perhaps a high-ranking cleric of Lolth could take them away in another ritual.

Even if you insist on treating a paladin's power like a cleric's, remember that the amount of "divine power" that a paladin throws around is less than that of a cleric. Paladins don't get high level spells, for example. Why would Lolth refuse to grant a small amount to a male if he was faithful to her and was devoted in a position of service to her favored clerics?

Especially in a society where males can be arcane spellcasters and more or less flout the authority of the clergy with impunity (re: Gromph, Phaeraun, the entire city of Sschindylryn). A Paladin would be a male with power that Lolth could CONTROL, and still be subservient to females.

just saying, this has already been resolved, but i appreciate your input. the reason I have to be a female character is because the proper RP of a female drow requires knowledge of how drow society works, and of the players at the table, im the only one that knows about it for the most part. true I didn't think there were any drow males that used divine magic, but i was already proven wrong.

so yeah, thanks everyone. I got my sociopath drow paladin murderer that has taken the identity of another drow online. ftw.

[goto124]

I don't get your logic on the sex thing, but ...is your drow male or female?

*runs around chanting LOLth*

[Yagyujubei]

my character will be female. the sex thing is because drow society is dominated by females, basically the people playing the female characters will have to kinda take charge of the campaign. Also as far as FR literature is concerned there are very few males who have harnessed Lolths divine power. generally its males are fighters/mages and females are the only people who get to be clerics, which my buddy (the DM) is adhering too, and on top of that generally there are no paladins hence my original post.

but we've solved my problem collectively and I have a character background that I'm very happy with. when the campaign comes online I'll let everyone know in case u wanna watch because we play on a twitch channel! ^_^

[DireSickFish]

my character will be female. the sex thing is because drow society is dominated by females, basically the people playing the female characters will have to kinda take charge of the campaign. Also as far as FR literature is concerned there are very few males who have harnessed Lolths divine power. generally its males are fighters/mages and females are the only people who get to be clerics, which my buddy (the DM) is adhering too, and on top of that generally there are no paladins hence my original post.

but we've solved my problem collectively and I have a character background that I'm very happy with. when the campaign comes online I'll let everyone know in case u wanna watch because we play on a twitch channel! ^_^

Glad to hear the forums helped. Rock on mate.

[arawra]

You guys are killing me ;_;

There is no difference in divine or arcane magic in 5e, except the origination. Magic is magic in this version.

[KorvinStarmast]

You guys are killing me ;_;

There is no difference in divine or arcane magic in 5e, except the origination. Magic is magic in this version. Hmm, how many spells that are not Cleric spells do Radiant damage?
I think there are some Paladin spells that do, and some Druid spells that do, but am AFB at the moment.

Warlock
Sorcerer
Wizard

Any of their spells do Radiant Damage?

[Sigreid]

The easy way is that separated from your group, lost in the underdark, wounded and at your lowest point that good Drow goddess appeared to you; restoring your strength and quite literally changing your religion.

[Drackolus]

You can also reflavor Oathbreaker to be it's own oath, essentially making an anti-paladin. Maybe changing the radiant damage from smite and spells into necrotic.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.