Gestalt Campaign, Need ideas!

[Wacky89]

I am basically drawing a blank. He has allowed me to take savage classes but no outsiders. My first idea was doing a Djinni/Cloistered Cleric.

About the character creation rules:
Character creation is level 5 gestalt, 32 point-buy, max hp, starting gold 5000 + what you get from class maxed, UA Traits/Flaws. You can be any race with a hard-set LA, those without LA and so have to go through the process set in Savage Species may still be possible. Templates allowed upon request. Any race with Racial Levels have to take said racial levels.

Any Non-Setting WotC 3.5, Arms&Armor v3.5, Oriental Adventures 3.0, Savage Species 3.0, Eberron Setting, Dragon Compendium, others available upon request.
Nothing that requires the existence of true-dragons and their kin, Dragon hit-die still exist (though few and far between).
There's so much Dragon/Dungeon Magazine stuff, that to allow whole magazines would be crazy, so anything from them is case-by-case.

About the party:
a Cleric//Wizard Runecrafter, a Fighter//Ranger TWFr, a Tibbit Psion//Wu Jen, and a Psion//Warblade.

The optimization level is mid-high.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Good rule of thumb is to have a class that provides good static buffs (Incarnum classes, minus soulborn, as good for this) and a class that will actually use your actions. They are more synergistic effects to consider as well. A Wizard 20//Cleric 20 is not going to be too much stronger than a Monk 20//Cleric 20 simply because using all those spells is difficult without shenanigans and the monk has a nice wis synergy with cleric and cleric has Divine Power to fix strength and BaB in one go. Notice in that example we have the static buffs class (monk) and the active class (cleric, with its spells). You of course aren't limited to such simple builds, but they serve as an example.

Now what did you have a general idea of doing? Casting? Using a sub-system? Want to just be a melee beast? Gestalt opens up a truly massive number of options so it is good to have a general idea of what you want going forwards (also grabbing a race/monster class is pretty good in gestalt since the LA is eaten by the other classes features, HD, etc)

Edit: I literally read everything but the first line. Djinni is an outsider, which you said were prohibited. Are they an exception? Outsiders tend to hog the Wis bonuses, so it is harder to gain that delicious synergy. Would you consider shadow maybe? Thy eventually pick up turn resistance, which would put you at a safe HD+2, give you a pile of immunties (as an incorporeal undead). Magic items would be tricky, but you could always take Vow of Poverty to fix that*.

*Don't do that unless you a feeling very silly.

[Wacky89]

Good rule of thumb is to have a class that provides good static buffs (Incarnum classes, minus soulborn, as good for this) and a class that will actually use your actions. They are more synergistic effects to consider as well. A Wizard 20//Cleric 20 is not going to be too much stronger than a Monk 20//Cleric 20 simply because using all those spells is difficult without shenanigans and the monk has a nice wis synergy with cleric and cleric has Divine Power to fix strength and BaB in one go. Notice in that example we have the static buffs class (monk) and the active class (cleric, with its spells). You of course aren't limited to such simple builds, but they serve as an example.

Now what did you have a general idea of doing? Casting? Using a sub-system? Want to just be a melee beast? Gestalt opens up a truly massive number of options so it is good to have a general idea of what you want going forwards (also grabbing a race/monster class is pretty good in gestalt since the LA is eaten by the other classes features, HD, etc)

At least casting on the one side, I thought about doing Cleric/Druid DMM:persist melee brute or Cleric/Incarnate.
What would you make by these character creation rules?

[ZamielVanWeber]

If the DM approved it I would go Mummified (Libris Mortis has the updates version) Human into Unarmed Swordsage on one side and Cleric into Dweomerkeeper on the other. That gives you triple good saves, lots of swift action options, impossible to dispel buffs, a pile of immunities, a sizeable boost to Wis and Str at the cost of a dump stat (Int), a boost to initiator level from cleric so you lose less from swordsage even though you go in late and the armor proficiency you traded out from swordsage cleric gives you back, not to mention the AoE paralyze (that only hits your allies once so just have everyone look at you when they wake up).

[Tragak]

Mechanically, my two favorite core combinations are Rogue//Ranger and Wizard//Barbarian. Rangers can take favored enemies that are immune to sneak attack damage, and a primary caster would love the Barbarian's damage reduction, d12 health, uncanny dodge, and faster movement so much that you will never need to use Rage

Fluffily (which I now declare to be a word), my two favorite core combinations are Wizard//Barbarian again and Sorcerer//Monk. I love the idea of a class that traditionally revolves around incredible self-control (Wizard for magic, Monk for melee) + a class that traditionally revolves around a complete lack of self-control (Sorcerer for magic, Barbarian for melee).

… This all assumes that Wizard//Cleric, Wizard//Druid, and Cleric//Druid are out of the question for being the over-deities that are worshiped by the deities that are worshiped by mortals slightly overpowered :smallwink:

EDIT: In light of posts that I missed while writing this, it appears that Rogue//Ranger is out. Are you sure that you have permission to make Cleric//Druid?

[Red Fel]

At least casting on the one side, I thought about doing Cleric/Druid DMM:persist melee brute or Cleric/Incarnate.
What would you make by these character creation rules?

Well, let's be clear on "active and passive," for a moment. It doesn't mean you need one "active side" and one "passive side." Rather, it means that any class you take, on either "side" of the gestalt, should give you active options, passive options, or both. A good example is Wizard//Warblade - you can use Wizard for passive buffs, and Warblade for attacks and strikes, or use Wizard for blasting and battlefield control, and Warblade for stances and counters. Or both.

Now, with regard to gestalt, the highest powered stuff inevitably involves taking a full 20 caster levels somewhere in there. If you're looking for a melee brute, you're smart to consider Cleric or Druid. But let's consider synergies as well. Remember that both will be using Wis for casting, plus physical stats. But let's go further.

First off, if you go Cleric, keep in mind that you can get Divine Power, which lets your BAB equal your character level. So there is no reason not to go with Cloistered Cleric for the bonus Knowledge Domain, which you will trade off for Knowledge Devotion, because bonus damage is bonus damage. Yes, you lose out on heavier armor, but do you really need it? You could really just go with Cleric 20 at that point, if you so desire. But let's face it, your only class feature is spellcasting. We can do better. And when it comes to melee-oriented divine casters, I see two options that always fill me with joy: Ordained Champion and Fist of Raziel.

Fist of Raziel gives you 9/10 caster progression, so you're still fine on spells, and lets you smite better than a Paladin. It also gives your weapons a power-up even when not smiting. Ordained Champion gives you 3/5 caster progression, free War domain and spontaneous War spells, and fun things you can do with extra spell slots. And if you take both, you're only missing a total of 3 CL, which puts you at Cleric 17 casting - enough to get 9th-level spells.

If you go with Druid, you could easily take Druid up to the top. And thanks to Wild Shape, you don't have to worry as much about your base physical abilities. But let me suggest something: Shifter Druid. Two reasons.

First, the Shifter Druid substitution levels at 1 and 4 are awesome - trade off your animal companion for scaling buffs, and your Resist Nature's Lure to a bonus on Reflex and Initiative (and a penalty on Will saves, but it's your strong suit anyway). Note that Shifter Druid 5 is rubbish, don't take it.

Second, Shifter Druids get access to Moonspeaker, which is a glorious 12/12 caster progression class that turns you into the ultimate Druid minionmancer. Seriously, this class allows you to conjure an outrageous army, and gives you INA and DR, and progresses Wild Shape (though not as much as pure Druid). It's sick and magnificent.

So, for your caster element, you should go Cloistered Cleric 20-X-Y/Fist of Raziel X/Ordained Champion Y, or Shifter Druid 20 or Shifter Druid 8/Moonspeaker 12. But what about the other side?

Well, I see two options. Option the first is Totemist or Incarnate. Just take it straight up to 20. This gives you some outrageous versatility, via soulmelds you can switch out every day. Note also that Totemist shores up Reflex, which is your weak save. Option the second is Swordsage, which gives you your Wis synergy to AC when wearing light armor. It also gives you an abundance of strikes, counters, boosts and stances, and you can easily adapt that to either Cleric or Druid. Further, Swordsage opens up RKV for a Cleric build, which is disgustingly great. (I would advise you to take Swordsage//RKV instead of Cleric//RKV for any RKV level that progresses divine casting; this would keep you from doubling up on caster progression.)

[Wacky89]

If the DM approved it I would go Mummified (Libris Mortis has the updates version) Human into Unarmed Swordsage on one side and Cleric into Dweomerkeeper on the other. That gives you triple good saves, lots of swift action options, impossible to dispel buffs, a pile of immunities, a sizeable boost to Wis and Str at the cost of a dump stat (Int), a boost to initiator level from cleric so you lose less from swordsage even though you go in late and the armor proficiency you traded out from swordsage cleric gives you back, not to mention the AoE paralyze (that only hits your allies once so just have everyone look at you when they wake up).

how do you cast arcane spells for Dweomerkeeper?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Spell Domain gives you Anyspell which lets you prepare and cast arcane spells of 1st level.

[Troacctid]

Some of my favorite combos:

Warlock//Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms: You pick up a bunch of cool invocations and combine them with the awesome power of MoMF wildshaping. It's pretty nice if you go glaivelock, with the extended reach and improved strength of your large wildshapes plus full BAB from Ranger. Also gives you all good saves and a good hit die.

Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage: Swordsage maneuvers give you plenty to do in combat, 6 + Int skill points give you plenty to do out of combat, and you have all the power of a full caster. You get Wisdom synergy and all good saves. A nifty option is to go Marrulurk (from Sandstorm) for your race, with the LA and RHD on the Swordsage side. It gives you huge stat boosts, including big buffs to Wis and Dex, and comes with 2d6 sneak attack to enable feats like Craven and Staggering Strike, and you still get half initiator level out of the deal.

Druid//Incarnate or Totemist: All your soulmelds function while wildshaped, so that's synergy. All your soulmelds can be shared with your animal companion, so that's more synergy. And, y'know, Druids are awesome, so that's cool too.

I have a ton of gestalt character concepts on the backburner, but I never play gestalt, so I never get to use them.

[(Un)Inspired]

Mechanically, my two favorite core combinations are Rogue//Ranger and Wizard//Barbarian. Rangers can take favored enemies that are immune to sneak attack damage, and a primary caster would love the Barbarian's damage reduction, d12 health, evasion, and faster movement so much that you will never need to use Rage

I think you may be mistaking barbarians uncanny dodge class feature for evasion.

I think that ranger//rogue might overlap too heavily to be useful. You're overwriting a ranger's 6+int skills per level for the rogues 8+int with two lists that share a lot of the same entries.

My problem with barbarian//wizard is that they have the opposite of synergy. Antergy.

The d12 hd is nice but both sides require active use for full effect and if you're raging you're absolutely not casting spells (and vice versa).


Well, let's be clear on "active and passive," for a moment. It doesn't mean you need one "active side" and one "passive side." Rather, it means that any class you take, on either "side" of the gestalt, should give you active options, passive options, or both. A good example is Wizard//Warblade - you can use Wizard for passive buffs, and Warblade for attacks and strikes, or use Wizard for blasting and battlefield control, and Warblade for stances and counters. Or both.

Now, with regard to gestalt, the highest powered stuff inevitably involves taking a full 20 caster levels somewhere in there. If you're looking for a melee brute, you're smart to consider Cleric or Druid. But let's consider synergies as well. Remember that both will be using Wis for casting, plus physical stats. But let's go further.

First off, if you go Cleric, keep in mind that you can get Divine Power, which lets your BAB equal your character level. So there is no reason not to go with Cloistered Cleric for the bonus Knowledge Domain, which you will trade off for Knowledge Devotion, because bonus damage is bonus damage. Yes, you lose out on heavier armor, but do you really need it? You could really just go with Cleric 20 at that point, if you so desire. But let's face it, your only class feature is spellcasting. We can do better. And when it comes to melee-oriented divine casters, I see two options that always fill me with joy: Ordained Champion and Fist of Raziel.

Fist of Raziel gives you 9/10 caster progression, so you're still fine on spells, and lets you smite better than a Paladin. It also gives your weapons a power-up even when not smiting. Ordained Champion gives you 3/5 caster progression, free War domain and spontaneous War spells, and fun things you can do with extra spell slots. And if you take both, you're only missing a total of 3 CL, which puts you at Cleric 17 casting - enough to get 9th-level spells.

If you go with Druid, you could easily take Druid up to the top. And thanks to Wild Shape, you don't have to worry as much about your base physical abilities. But let me suggest something: Shifter Druid. Two reasons.

First, the Shifter Druid substitution levels at 1 and 4 are awesome - trade off your animal companion for scaling buffs, and your Resist Nature's Lure to a bonus on Reflex and Initiative (and a penalty on Will saves, but it's your strong suit anyway). Note that Shifter Druid 5 is rubbish, don't take it.

Second, Shifter Druids get access to Moonspeaker, which is a glorious 12/12 caster progression class that turns you into the ultimate Druid minionmancer. Seriously, this class allows you to conjure an outrageous army, and gives you INA and DR, and progresses Wild Shape (though not as much as pure Druid). It's sick and magnificent.

So, for your caster element, you should go Cloistered Cleric 20-X-Y/Fist of Raziel X/Ordained Champion Y, or Shifter Druid 20 or Shifter Druid 8/Moonspeaker 12. But what about the other side?

Well, I see two options. Option the first is Totemist or Incarnate. Just take it straight up to 20. This gives you some outrageous versatility, via soulmelds you can switch out every day. Note also that Totemist shores up Reflex, which is your weak save. Option the second is Swordsage, which gives you your Wis synergy to AC when wearing light armor. It also gives you an abundance of strikes, counters, boosts and stances, and you can easily adapt that to either Cleric or Druid. Further, Swordsage opens up RKV for a Cleric build, which is disgustingly great. (I would advise you to take Swordsage//RKV instead of Cleric//RKV for any RKV level that progresses divine casting; this would keep you from doubling up on caster progression.)

I'm mostly in agreement here with the exception of going swordsage into RKV. I would dip a level of Crusader first; otherwise the feat toll is almost too great for any PC's soul to bear.

[Rebel7284]

About the party:
a Cleric//Wizard Runecrafter, a Fighter//Ranger TWFr, a Tibbit Psion//Wu Jen, and a Psion//Warblade.


That Fighter seems pretty outclassed there... in a party of casters, having two, mostly overlapping tier 4 classes. :-\

As for your options:
Your party seems to be a bit light on the skill use, so a Rogue/Factotum/Bard type character would probably contribute well.

One of my favorite Gestalt Builds with factotum is the following:

Martial Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +8/X 5
Factotum 5/Wizard 1/Factotum +3/Wizard 1/Y 10

You are a full caster with the ability to dance to persist a few buffs you need. You are also an amazing skill user. You also get extra actions at levels 9 and 15.

If you want to play around with interesting races,
Marrulurk is 3HD +1 LA for great stat adjustments and sneak attack/death attack.
Pixies are invisible all the time and also have stats that are amazing.
Shadow and Dark templates are both great for sneaking.

[Red Fel]

I'm mostly in agreement here with the exception of going swordsage into RKV. I would dip a level of Crusader first; otherwise the feat toll is almost too great for any PC's soul to bear.

Ooh, duh, I had a brain fart. Sorry, that was my bad.

Yeah, go with Crusader/RKV if you're going with Cleric, straight Swordsage if you're going with Druid. It works easier that way.

[(Un)Inspired]

Ooh, duh, I had a brain fart. Sorry, that was my bad.

Yeah, go with Crusader/RKV if you're going with Cleric, straight Swordsage if you're going with Druid. It works easier that way.

Even if you're going cleric swordsage is nice for that sweet wis to AC synergy.

Not by any means essential though.

[thethird]

My personal favorite skill wise is Archivist // Factotum or Artificer // Factotum if you have available downtime. An Artificer // Warlock might be a good idea too, now that I think about it.

[Tragak]

I think you may be mistaking barbarians uncanny dodge class feature for evasion. Fixed, thanks :smallredface:


The d12 had is nice but both sides require active use for full effect and if you're raging you're absolutely not casting spells (and vice versa). Are you sure? Raging + (d12 health, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, +10 movement) doesn't seem as powerful as Tier 1 Casting + (d12 health, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, +10 movement) when the Tier 1 Casting is normal offset by d4 health.

[Wacky89]

I like the idea of Pixie or Marrulurk. How would you build them?

[(Un)Inspired]

Are you sure? Raging + (d12 health, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, +10 movement) doesn't seem as powerful as Tier 1 Casting + (d12 health, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, +10 movement) when the Tier 1 Casting is normal offset by d4 health.

I'm far from sure but in my experience the DR barbarians get is too low to make any real impact and neither uncanny dodge or +10 ft. Movement have ever seemed that critical on a class that stays out of the fray.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I like the idea of Pixie or Marrulurk. How would you build them?

Since my betters have not spoken up yet, I will take a stab at this. Pixie gives you massive mental stats and an excellent dex to boot at the cost of some strength. This can make decent archers, or you can even use ToB classes Warblade gives you int synergy, of which you will have plenty, and swordsage gives you wis synergy and goes well with your high dex.

For your other side full casting is still a good best. You can make up for your weak strength easily through spells or wildshape. Druid gives you both, although you don't need it for flight and will often trade Dex for Str. Wizard/Sorcerer go off your solid mental stats, and cleric is no slouch. With pixie's large buffs you can afford to be a little MAD so a wizard//swordsage wouldn't be too bad (although a wizard//warblade would still be preferrable). Focus on buffs and and BFC with your wizard and you can wander into melee after a round, or use counters.

Not really fantastic at gestalt sorry, hopefully someone who can give a more detailed report will be along soon.

[(Un)Inspired]

I like the idea of Pixie or Marrulurk. How would you build them?

What would you want your pixie or marrulurk to be capable of?

For instance, marrulurk look, on the surface to be made for rogue-ing it up. If you can shunt their Racisl hit die to one side of gestalt, however, they make pretty righteous Druids.

[FireGriver]

On the pixie side, maybe some gish/skillmonkey(ish) focused on CHA? Since it seems that your group may need some skillmonkey.

If you go for the 5 lvls' pixie from Savage Species, you could do Pixie 5/Rogue 2 // Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1, then something X (I think more Rogue would be best) // Abjurant Champion 5/Some class that advances CL.

On one side you would have a classic gish build, with the HUGE bonus from CHA to saves from pixie, and from the other side you will have the skillmonkey stuff that your group needs, plus the bonus of being always invisible (easy SA and scouting.)

You could also delay in some way the gish side and start with Pixie//Rogue X, so you can fulfill the skillmonkey rol way better from the get go, and then start to focus on the gish part.

Some feats you may want to have: Craven (almost a must), Divine Might (requires Power Attack as a pre req. and turn/rebuke undead meaning more levels of Paladin, but you could add your CHA to damage for a full attack as free action as many times you have turn attempts, and you will have plenty as a Pixie), Divine Shield (a lot less useful than Divine Might and still need a source of turn/rebuke, but has no pre req. feat; add your CHA as a CA bonus to a shield, I think it works with the homonymous spell), Acidic Splatter + Heighten Spell (for a nice ranged touch SA that scales damage, could be any other reserve feat, but I think acid is the best choice to bypass hardeness/immunities and for general utility)

This is also kinda source lite, besides Champions of Ruin for Craven I only used things from SRD and Completes, I'm sure that if you like the idea of a Pixie Gish/Skillmonkey with some CHA synergy this forum can improve A LOT that idea. :)

If you go this way, I would reccomend some Paladin variant, of Freedom for the immunities to compulsion is nice.

Benefits from the build: skillmonkey from Rogue, and with the INT bonus from Pixie you will have plenty of skills to choose and max. Easy SA from being always (unless you choose not to) invisible. For the same reason, easy scouting (make sure you have some way to see in darkness, with sorceror you probably will have this well covered.)
From the gish part, well, all the benefits from being a CHA gish boosted from being a Pixie. Spells right to 9 if built well, CHA to saves, to dmg, to CA, nice BAB, nice (but not great) hit dice.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm...

Cleric//Wizard Runecrafter
Fighter//Ranger TWFr
Tibbit Psion//Wu Jen
Psion//Warblade.

Divine and Arcane (MAD)
MELEE (with less long-term potential)
Psychic Arcane (INT)
Psychic Gish (INT)

You're lacking a skillmonkey. How does a Druid//Ninja strike you? Wis-based Ki tricks (including swift-action invisibility), d8 HD, all good saves, 6+Int skill points/level, trapfinding, 3/4ths BAB, Wis-based spells, Wis to AC when unarmored (which works in Wildshape), and Sudden Strike to go with the natural attacks from Wildshape.

So you Wildshape into (at 5th) a Fleshraker Dinosaur (MM III) for most the day. When combat comes around, swift-action invisibility, Pounce, get five attacks in (claw/claw/bite/tail/rake), Dex poison on three of those, a free trip attempt, a free grapple attempt, and (at 5th) +3d6 Sudden Strike damage to each attack that lands. You'll be a one-charge, one-kill vs. most targets. You'll also have the skillmonkey side of the house covered, which is something your party will need - and you can also be the backup healer for the party in case the Cleric//Wizard bites it. Oh yes, and of course take a Fleshraker Animal Companion and Natural Bond. If you really want to shine, cast Venomfire on yourself (Serpent Kingdoms, 1 hour/level, causes poison to deal Acid damage at a rate of 1d6/cl - so those three posion attacks suddenly add 5d6 acid damage each) and your animal companion.

[kpumphre]

Ranger scout with swift Hunter feat. So damage as if you were 10th level. I suggest favored enemy arcane user for first ranger feat

[Troacctid]

Ranger scout with swift Hunter feat. So damage as if you were 10th level. I suggest favored enemy arcane user for first ranger feat

Gestalt doesn't work that way. If both classes progress your skirmish, you only use the faster progression. They don't stack. It's like if you take Wizard on one side and a +1 arcane spellcasting on the other, you can't double up on your Wizard casting.

Also, wouldn't it be better to pick Undead and Construct as favored enemies, to take advantage of the Swift Hunter ability to bypass their skirmish immunity? That's one of the best parts.

[DMVerdandi]

You said you wanted a Djinn character initially right???

A few suggestions.

1.Fire Genassi Cleric//Druid
Take the ACF to get an elemental as a familiar, Possibly the elemental reserve feat as well.
The benefit in this is that you get twice as much great casting, from one caster stat. You can turn undead (which can be either traded, or used to power divine feats), you can spontaneously cast cure and summon nature's ally spells (which both can be traded in for other stuff if you want), and you can wild shape (again, modular).

The greatest thing about CADzilla, is that it is quite possibly the most versatile gestalt around. You know all your spells, every class feature you have can be swapped out for something more flavorful (though not necessarily more powerful), and it's powerful as hell. It need not be broken, as again, you have the power to not go too far, but it will never leave you too far out in the mud.


You could memorize mostly fire spells on the druid side, and cleric stuff on the cleric side. Be a child of the sacred flame, burning all your enemies to ash.



2.Sha'ir//xx
If you really want that arabic flavor, this is your guy. The way it works is that the Sha'ir sends out a little genie called a Gen, that Gen goes to it's magical plane, and receives spells for you. Think of it as laying groundwork for you to make your own wishes happen...

In Gestalt, it works best with a class that can synergize well with charisma.
This could be a warlock, which would tremendously increase your crafting potential, and give you some pretty sick powers that you can use all day.

Could be a divine class using Dynamic Priest.

Or, you could use the Lost Tradition feat (3rd party 3.0, but it is so simple that it can work in 3.5 without any problem). What it does is at level 1 allows you to switch the casting stat of any spell casting class. Only works once, and it's permanent.

You could switch Sha'ir to a Wisdom casting class, Or intelligence, where it could synergize very well with a factotum for example, OR, you could go crazy and make a muscle wizard. Have Con be the primary casting stat, and Play a gish without even touching the mental stats.


Or you could again just use charisma, and take maybe a few levels of marshal, Perhaps Binder, or Bard on the other side. Keep in mind, lost tradition works on any spell casting class, so you shoehorn whatever you want.