Strength Based Monk?

[DireSickFish]

Hey Playground. I've been mulling over the idea of a Str based monk using point buy and I can't really get the idea to work.

We recently had a new player start up a dragonborn monk and built woefuly ineffective. We had to rework her character to pump up dex and wis but she still feels a bit week compared to the rest of the party.

I'm just wondering if it's possible to do a decent Str based monk going dragoborn, half orc or maybe even mountain dwarf.

The AC hinging on Wis and Dex seems hard to overcome. You can't even slap on armor because you lose nearly all class abilities for that. No flurry ect. Is there a way to do a strength based monk and be viable?

[Once a Fool]

Make a grappler. You don't need to flurry when you're holding people in the dirt for your allies to wail on, or tossing them out of windows or off of ledges.

Make sure you Ki-dodge often. And don't skimp on Con, because you will need the hp.

Consider a 1-level Barbarian dip and use that unarmored defense, instead.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Bypass having a strength score, use wisdom in place of str
Allow for armor to be worn with wisdom instead of dexterity.
Allow for a special attack. On a charge, you make one attack using strength. If it hits save or stunned. Make special attacks around str so it is worth it to have

Basically anything that reduces Multiple Attribute Dependency. I would just say, bypass strength, use wisdom as the strength score. To Hit and Damage

[DireSickFish]

Bypass having a strength score, use wisdom in place of str
Allow for armor to be worn with wisdom instead of dexterity.
Allow for a special attack. On a charge, you make one attack using strength. If it hits save or stunned. Make special attacks around str so it is worth it to have

Basically anything that reduces Multiple Attribute Dependency. I would just say, bypass strength, use wisdom as the strength score. To Hit and Damage

I'm looking for RAW not homebrew, but thanks for the input.

[Flickerdart]

The best thing to do with a Monk base is to hop into a PrC. There are some pretty good ones out there. If you stay in-class, a STR-based monk is just a fighter that's worse in every way.

[DireSickFish]

The best thing to do with a Monk base is to hop into a PrC. There are some pretty good ones out there. If you stay in-class, a STR-based monk is just a fighter that's worse in every way.

I think you're in the wrong thread mate. This is 5th edition, there are no PrC's as of yet. And straight monk is a good option this edition.

[Once a Fool]

The best thing to do with a Monk base is to hop into a PrC. There are some pretty good ones out there. If you stay in-class, a STR-based monk is just a fighter that's worse in every way.

I think you may have wandered into the 5e forum by mistake. There are no prestige classes in 5e. (And, anyway, ALL monks were inferior to fighters in 3.x.)

Anyway, I would like to reiterate the points in my previous post for the OP. They are both RAW and effective.

[Eslin]

The best thing to do with a Monk base is to hop into a PrC. There are some pretty good ones out there. If you stay in-class, a STR-based monk is just a fighter that's worse in every way.

True of the 3.5 monk, a class that ended at level two. The 5e monk is a little better at his job, however.

[CrusaderJoe]

I think you're in the wrong thread mate. This is 5th edition, there are no PrC's as of yet. And straight monk is a good option this edition.

One of the best even, 3.P could learn a few things from the 4e and 5e Monks.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Sorry, but I don't think it works very well. Using STR generally mean you'll need heavy armor for AC, and as you said Monks don't do armor. The only thing that might work is dipping Barbarian to get that unarmored AC and pumping CON, but even then you're still relying on DEX to some extent. So now you're depending on four stats, STR, DEX, CON & WIS instead of just three.

[Eslin]

One of the best even, 3.P could learn a few things from the 4e and 5e Monks.

Well... no, not really. The swordsage exists to replace the 3.5 monk, and it's the other way around - 5e learned from the 3.5 monk, knew the problems it needed to avoid.

[CrusaderJoe]

I'm looking for RAW not homebrew, but thanks for the input.

Hill or Mountain Dwarf makes this work, though it won't come online till level 4.

[Flickerdart]

I think you may have wandered into the 5e forum by mistake. There are no prestige classes in 5e. (And, anyway, ALL monks were inferior to fighters in 3.x.)
Haha, you're right! I clicked on the "latest thread" link and forgot that there were other editions of the game.

[Easy_Lee]

Consider a 1-level Barbarian dip and use that unarmored defense, instead.

This is probably the simplest thing to do. The problem is your other class abilities, be they stunning fist, quivering palm, or elemental spells, will suffer from low wisdom.

The only monk archetype that does not rely on high wisdom is shadow. As such, here's what I would do:

Main stats are Dex and Str
Start as a warlock, taking two levels minimum for shadow armor. Keep it up at all times so your armor is 13+Dex (respectable)
Go monk starting at 3, investing in shadow monk
Specialize in grappling. Ask your DM if you can grapple people and drag them into shadows with you for some nifty grapple tricks (shadow step into cages, off cliffs, into hazards, or just really high up with the unwilling target)
After 8 levels of monk, ask your DM if you can declare your body / unarmed strike as your pact weapon. Warlock blade pact allows this (melee weapons) though you will lose the benefit of shunting your pact weapon away to a separate dimension (it's sentient), but you didn't need to do that anyway.

If DM is cool with it, finish off warlock for the capstone that lets you add CHA to weapon attacks. You'll need a CHA item or pretty decent CHA to pull this off. This will probably let you outdamage the fighter, to say nothing of other monks or rogues. The casting and invocations (especially otherworldly leap for even more grapple tricks and haste on top of your monk speed and extra bonus attacks) will be very useful, too.
If DM says no, just keep with monk and end up monk 18 / warlock 2. You'll have more Ki to spend on flurries and dodges, and your shadow boons will be useful

[Yagyujubei]

What's your goal with a STR monk? because most people when talking about a STR monk are referring to a dedicated grapple build. if you aren't trying to grapple then there's no point in going STR. if you ARE then take a few levels in Barbarian to solve your problem, since rage will allow you to win many grapple contests even with relatively low STR so it reduces the MAB you would otherwise feel.

honestly if you're looking for a really competetive STR based monk build I just dont think it exists without homebrewing a bit

[silveralen]

Personally I just allow monks to use STR instead of dexterity to calculate their unarmoured AC. It amounts to the same thing as a normal monk, just changes your skill focus mainly. It worked reasonably well for the dragonborn monk at my table.

[Shadow]

If you're building a grappler, a single level of Rogue on a Dex Monk is all that's needed for Expertise. Expertise is almost as good a decent Str at low levels +2 vs +3 Str with point buy), and it's better than 20 Str at high levels (+6 prof vs +5 Str). And that's if your Str is 10/11. If you have a 12 Str + Expertise, that's just as good or better for your entire career.
Alternately, a homebrewed feat for Expertise keeps you from needing to multiclass.

If you're not building a grappler, there's really no point in a Str Monk.

[CrusaderJoe]

Personally I just allow monks to use STR instead of dexterity to calculate their unarmoured AC. It amounts to the same thing as a normal monk, just changes your skill focus mainly. It worked reasonably well for the dragonborn monk at my table.

:smalleek: But that means you will allow strength to be used for to many things!!!!

/blue

[mephnick]

If you're not building a grappler, there's really no point in a Str Monk.

I think the point is image and RP. There's a big difference in feeling between being Chong Li/Jackson or the monkey dude from Bloodsport*, even though they are both "monks". I think replacing Dex with Strength for AC on a very specific character is a fine option.

*Anyone who doesn't get this reference, re-evaluate your life.

[Easy_Lee]

I think the point is image and RP. There's a big difference in feeling between being Chong Li/Jackson or the monkey dude from Bloodsport*, even though they are both "monks". I think replacing Dex with Strength for AC on a very specific character is a fine option.

*Anyone who doesn't get this reference, re-evaluate your life.

Dexterity is strength, it's just core strength and coordination rather than focusing fully on arms and legs.

There's no reason why a monk has to be small and weak, either. The guys you mentioned might qualify as strength 14 or so in D&D land. But they could still be monks. For higher strength, think power lifters, world's strongest man types. They don't look like Chong Li, they look like redneck truckers or The Mountain from Game of Thrones.

[CrusaderJoe]

I think the point is image and RP. There's a big difference in feeling between being Chong Li/Jackson or the monkey dude from Bloodsport*, even though they are both "monks". I think replacing Dex with Strength for AC on a very specific character is a fine option.

*Anyone who doesn't get this reference, re-evaluate your life.

Anyone who thinks people need to have watched a mediocre movie or reevaluate their life really needs to take their own advice.

Really pretty much everything Dexterity is used for can be explained with Strength. Everything from Longbow to Initiative...

[DireSickFish]

Right well except that not every race gets a bonus to dexterity. That's the main thrust, to be able to play different races as Monks that normally would not be considered. And if a strength monk is not doable then deciding you have to go with boosting your main stats without any racial bonuses.

Barb for lvl1 is something I considered but leaves you even more SAD. And you only get so many ASI, which ideally I'd want to spend on Strength for the concept but mechanically I'd need to spend on Dex.

Is there a way to get bark-skin always on? It might not give me the highest AC, but it does give me AC independent of any stats.

[JFahy]

Anyone who thinks people need to have watched a mediocre movie or reevaluate their life really needs to take their own advice.

Anyone who thinks Bloodsport is mediocre needs to reevaluate their life. :smallwink:

[CrusaderJoe]

Right well except that not every race gets a bonus to dexterity. That's the main thrust, to be able to play different races as Monks that normally would not be considered. And if a strength monk is not doable then deciding you have to go with boosting your main stats without any racial bonuses.
.

A popular variant to Racial ASI is giving each character 3 points to place however they want for their ASI boost. (2 point cap)

[Person_Man]

If you're following RAW, and if you're using a point buy, I honestly don't see any way that it works. 5E Monk is very clearly written to be a Dex/Wis class, and every class wants high Con.

The only way the math is going to work for you is if you don't use RAW, or if you roll ability scores and get 4 high-ish scores.

The only way out I can think of is if your DM allows Martial Arts and Ki powers to work while you are in Wildshape, which also is not RAW, but its at least vague non-RAW, rather then a flat out house rule. Then you could go Moon Druid X/Monk Y, and maybe get a workable build. It still wouldn't be particularly optimal, since Druid wants higher spells and Monk wants more Ki points. But at least the basic math of your attack rolls and AC would work.


Separately, what's stopping you from being a Strength based Fighter or Barbarian or Rogue or whatever and just calling yourself a Monk? You can duplicate most Monk-ish abilities through other means. Hitting stuff is hitting stuff, AC is AC, you can become more mobile several ways, you can inflict status effects like Stun several ways, etc. The outcomes will be pretty similar, even if the means are different, and the fluff is always entirely up to you.

[Giant2005]

The AC hinging on Wis and Dex seems hard to overcome. You can't even slap on armor because you lose nearly all class abilities for that. No flurry ect. Is there a way to do a strength based monk and be viable?

You don't lose Flurry while armored.
You only losw Unarmored Movement and Martial Arts.
That means your unarmed attacks will only do 1 damage + bonuses (Unless you have Tavern Brawler which would beef it up to 1D4) but you can counter that by multiclassing into Paladin. Other than Smites, the Paladin gets an extra 1D8 damage per attack at level 11 and if an Oathbreaker an extra chamod to damage at level 7. Those bonuses more than make up for the loss of Monk unarmed damage. You can then wear heavy armor or even use a non-Monk weapon at your leisure.
A Strength-based Monk/Paladin is one of the strongest combinations in the game.

[Ziegander]

You don't lose Flurry while armored.
You only losw Unarmored Movement and Martial Arts.
That means your unarmed attacks will only do 1 damage + bonuses (Unless you have Tavern Brawler which would beef it up to 1D4) but you can counter that by multiclassing into Paladin. Other than Smites, the Paladin gets an extra 1D8 damage per attack at level 11 and if an Oathbreaker an extra chamod to damage at level 7. Those bonuses more than make up for the loss of Monk unarmed damage. You can then wear heavy armor or even use a non-Monk weapon at your leisure.
A Strength-based Monk/Paladin is one of the strongest combinations in the game.

Uh...

What? You suggest a Monk/Paladin multiclass with 11 Paladin levels to overcome the shortcomings of playing a Monk in a way it's not built to be played. How is this one of the strongest combinations in the game? What does the Str Monk add to the table, that makes it better than a straight Str/Cha Paladin or a Dex/Wis Monk? I'm not seeing it.

[Giant2005]

Uh...

What? You suggest a Monk/Paladin multiclass with 11 Paladin levels to overcome the shortcomings of playing a Monk in a way it's not built to be played. How is this one of the strongest combinations in the game? What does the Str Monk add to the table, that makes it better than a straight Str/Cha Paladin or a Dex/Wis Monk? I'm not seeing it.

2 extra attacks per round.

[Ziegander]

2 extra attacks per round.

For a maximum of 9 rounds per short rest, at 20th level, you mean, that deal 1d8+1+Str mod damage, which, admittedly, offer two additional opportunities to use Divine Smite. Somehow I feel like there's plenty of other 20 level builds that offer way more, and I'd wager to guess that straight-classed Paladin 20, and Monk 20 are among them, you haven't really given any data or deep analysis to prove how two extra attacks is better than what the straight-classes get.

[Theodoxus]

If you're an 11 Paladin, you're not really a monk.

I mean, I love the synergy that a level 20 character can generate, but I'm sure we all would appreciate viable builds, not ephemeral level 20 contraptions that less than 1% of players will get a chance to experience - and even then, maybe a session or two at 20...


To answer the tangental question posed by the OP - why does race matter? Racial bonuses to attributes aren't worth stressing over. At best, it's an ASI away in difference. If your whole concept can't deal with a paltry +1 to stats, maybe rethink the concept?

A dragonborn monk who's going with dex and wis isn't much behind an elf - and has cooler flavor plus some unique attributes. Plus that strength bonus means he gets to carry the wizards gear around too!

[Giant2005]

For a maximum of 9 rounds per short rest, at 20th level, you mean, that deal 1d8+1+Str mod damage, which, admittedly, offer two additional opportunities to use Divine Smite. Somehow I feel like there's plenty of other 20 level builds that offer way more, and I'd wager to guess that straight-classed Paladin 20, and Monk 20 are among them, you haven't really given any data or deep analysis to prove how two extra attacks is better than what the straight-classes get.

1D8+1+strmod+chamod plus potential for Divine Smite. And yes 9 rounds per short rest which should be more than enough as that is 3 rounds per encounter on average and with that level of damage, 3 rounds is 1 or 2 more than you would need to win an encounter.
There is a lot more to it than just the extra attacks obviously - that was just the short answer and the most significant benefit. Obviously Deflect missiles, Evasion, wholeness of body, lay on hands, the Pally save Aura, Heavy Armor and the possibilities of the Defensive Fighting style and/or a shield result in an extraordinarily tanky character in addition to the already superior offense offered by the combination. You can also get free knockdowns on enemies with low Dex saves or at the very least the ability to reliably deny them reactions.
Essentially it is a class combination that has both better offense and defense than almost all alternatives.

[odigity]

Make a grappler. You don't need to flurry when you're holding people in the dirt for your allies to wail on, or tossing them out of windows or off of ledges.

Monks are no better at grappling than Wizards.

The only classes with a natural aptitude for grappling are Barbarian (Str advantage), Bard/Rogue (Expertise), and Druid (Wild Shape).


Consider a 1-level Barbarian dip and use that unarmored defense, instead.

That makes a lot more sense. You are aptly named. :)


Sorry, but I don't think it works very well. Using STR generally mean you'll need heavy armor for AC, and as you said Monks don't do armor. The only thing that might work is dipping Barbarian to get that unarmored AC and pumping CON, but even then you're still relying on DEX to some extent. So now you're depending on four stats, STR, DEX, CON & WIS instead of just three.

If you go the Barbarian route, you'd be dumping Wis, giving up on Stunning Fist, and limiting yourself to Way of the Shadow. If all of that is acceptable, then it can work. It wouldn't be acceptable to me -- Monk w/o Stunning Fist is not Monk to me (one of his best abilities!), so I don't consider exotic non-Wis Monk builds.


Start as a warlock, taking two levels minimum for shadow armor. Keep it up at all times so your armor is 13+Dex (respectable)

No way -- all Cha-based classes are out of the question. That's even more MAD than Monk/Barb. There's at least a weak argument for dumping Wis to focus on Str/Dex/Con. There's not even the semblance of an argument for dumping Wis for Dex/Con/Cha.

And I say this as someone who's currently playing a Warlock 1 / Monk 4. I know from experience. It is *painful*. I love my char, but he's not optimized... started with 10 / 16 / 14 / 8 / 14 / 14, bumped Dex to 18 at lvl 4. My Eldritch Blast is -3 attack bonus compared to my primary attack (quarterstaff +1 w/Dex), and you really feel that difference. The only reason I dipped was 1) core to the backstory of the char 2) the Devil's Sight and Mask of Many Faces invocations, which I haven't even gotten yet because I really want to get to Monk 6 first to complete my core combat package before picking up the Warlock toys. And it's sad knowing I'm never, ever going to get my Wis up to 20 because I had to put enough points in Cha to multi-class... oh well. I'll just have to console myself by massacreing my enemies in total silence and darkness while seeing perfectly and then casually walking out looking like a harmless little girl. :)

[Easy_Lee]

No way -- all Cha-based classes are out of the question. That's even more MAD than Monk/Barb. There's at least a weak argument for dumping Wis to focus on Str/Dex/Con. There's not even the semblance of an argument for dumping Wis for Dex/Con/Cha...not optimized

We're talking about strength-based monks, and you want to talk optimal? Either way, I never said you need a high CHA. 14 at start would be fine. That's because the warlock spells and invocations one would pick with the build don't have DCs. There are plenty of warlock spells like darkness and AA that don't have saves or attack rolls.

Having a higher CHA would be nice, of course. But you really can't afford that unless you roll exceptionally well. That said, I'd assume anyone trying to play a STR monk rolled exceptionally well. Otherwise, why are they trying to play a STR monk?

Either way, I can't think of much benefit to playing a strength-based monk. A rogue/barbarian with tavern brawler would probably be better for the concept.

[DireSickFish]

The consensus seems to be to not do a strength based monk because it is terrible. Just go dex and wis and if you don't have any racial bonuses don't worry about it you aren't all that far behind.

[odigity]

We're talking about strength-based monks, and you want to talk optimal?

No, but the OP does. :) The fact that Str-based Monk is sub-optimal to begin with makes it even more important not to make additional compromises on optimality, like throwing Cha in the mix. If you're starting with the requirement of a Str-based Monk, you can't afford to let it get any worse.


Either way, I never said you need a high CHA. 14 at start would be fine.

That's my point. Even allocating the minimum Cha 13 necessary for multi-classing is painful to the point of not an option. I'm playing a Dex-based Monk with a Cha 14, and I feel the pain. It'll be even worse on a Str-based Monk (who still needs Dex). I don't even want to imagine how bad that would play (mechanically).

[Gwendol]

We're talking about strength-based monks, and you want to talk optimal? Either way, I never said you need a high CHA. 14 at start would be fine. That's because the warlock spells and invocations one would pick with the build don't have DCs. There are plenty of warlock spells like darkness and AA that don't have saves or attack rolls.

Having a higher CHA would be nice, of course. But you really can't afford that unless you roll exceptionally well. That said, I'd assume anyone trying to play a STR monk rolled exceptionally well. Otherwise, why are they trying to play a STR monk?

Either way, I can't think of much benefit to playing a strength-based monk. A rogue/barbarian with tavern brawler would probably be better for the concept.

While I do agree in principle, the OP is using point-buy. In that scenario the STR-based monk becomes a challenge.

[Easy_Lee]

While I do agree in principle, the OP is using point-buy. In that scenario the STR-based monk becomes impossible.

Fixed that for you. OP, don't try it. It won't go well. Play a barbarian instead.

[CrusaderJoe]

Fixed that for you. OP, don't try it. It won't go well. Play a barbarian instead.

Mountain Dwarf Soldier Monk (Lv. 1)
+2 Str, +2 Con

Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

HP: 11
Skills: Perception, Athletics, Stealth, Insight

AC: 13

Stay out of melee and throw javelins.

Later levels

Go Way of the Elements, boost wis to 16 or 18. Boost Strength to 20. Take charger feat and use a proficient weapon... Bumping Wis will bring your AC up. You could by level 20 perhaps get the feat moderately armored (shields and medium armor) but wisdom + Dex will be better.

Move + Dash (action) + Charge Attack (1d8) + 5 + Stun. For mobility.

Move + BA Water Whip + action attack twice Stun if needed.

Deflect missiles still isn't bad, 1d10 + level + 1 will still reduce a bit if damage.

You have here a strength based elemental monk. Takes a few levels in which to get going (3 or 4) but not to bad for something impossible. This build may not be a huge damage dealer but it is a battle utility and stunner.

Don't attempt to fix other people's posts unless you know what you are talking about. :smallannoyed:

[Easy_Lee]

Don't attempt to fix other people's posts unless you know what you are talking about. :smallannoyed:

In the nicest way possible, I'd like to point out that the character you posted is terrible. Most of his features have no synergy, and he loses several of them entirely by wearing armor. Elemental monk is also the worst choice for low-Wis character because nearly everything it does requires wisdom DCs. That character doesn't compare, at all, to a standard wood elf, lightfoot halfling, or human monk.

Perhaps I should have clarified "impossible unless you want to suck bad and immediately regret your character" in my post.

[CrusaderJoe]

In the nicest way possible, I'd like to point out that the character you posted is terrible. Most of his features have no synergy, and he loses several of them entirely by wearing armor. Elemental monk is also the worst choice for low-Wis character because nearly everything it does requires wisdom DCs. That character doesn't compare, at all, to a standard wood elf, lightfoot halfling, or human monk.

Perhaps I should have clarified "impossible unless you want to suck bad and immediately regret your character" in my post.

1: He can stun just fine.

2: His elemental abilities are based off wisdom and give him utility so that he can use his strength and stunning better.

3: He has 18 AC. Though it comes on late your main job is to stun. A stunned creature doesn't attack you.

4: This build gives you quite a bit of versatility that other weapon based classes will never have.

Is this character perfect with no weaknesses? No. But no class should have no weaknesses. This PC works quite well.

Your insulting hyperbole isn't needed. Especially when you want to "fix" peoples opinions.

[Mechaviking]

My 2 coppers:

If the DM wants to work with a str monk its fine he can get magic items/boons/more screen time to accompany his awesome.

If you are playing a prewritten adventure(path), you are probably better off going human barbarian with the brawler feat at lvl 1(plus side 16 in all physical stats and you can grapple good). I say probably because as of yet I have not thought of something awesome using str extensively as a monk.

As a sidenote you could have done this in the playtest a way back which I did and it was fun, but I had to play a dwarf who got armor profs from there and martial arts(in the playtest) didn´t prohibit you from using it while wearing armor, unfortunetly this does not help you in the released version of the game and also that character was worse than a race with +dex playing monk.

We can only hope that the mental gymnastics people went through help them figure out something awesome :D

[Human Paragon 3]

STR based monk seems a lot like a WIS based fighter. It's just not an important stat. You could boost it to make a unique character that has some extra tricks / skills that are not typical of their class, but that shouldn't be the priority stat. You wouldn't max out WIS on a fighter before you did the same for STR or DEX. Same for a monk.

If it's about physical prowess, having 20 DEX and high CON are great indicators that you're near super human by almost any physical measure.

[DireSickFish]

STR based monk seems a lot like a WIS based fighter. It's just not an important stat. You could boost it to make a unique character that has some extra tricks / skills that are not typical of their class, but that shouldn't be the priority stat. You wouldn't max out WIS on a fighter before you did the same for STR or DEX. Same for a monk.

If it's about physical prowess, having 20 DEX and high CON are great indicators that you're near super human by almost any physical measure.

Well it does give you your to hit and damage, the problem is Dex already covers that and so much more. The dichotomy for melee in this edition seems to be Dex or Str based fighter, with AC coming from heavy armor for Str based characters. Monks just have the limitation that they can not wear heavy armor without losing all of there class abilities.

Funny note I did make a Wis based fighter back in 3.5 with Zen archery. It was fun having a beastly will save.

[CrusaderJoe]

Well it does give you your to hit and damage, the problem is Dex already covers that and so much more. The dichotomy for melee in this edition seems to be Dex or Str based fighter, with AC coming from heavy armor for Str based characters. Monks just have the limitation that they can not wear heavy armor without losing all of there class abilities.

Funny note I did make a Wis based fighter back in 3.5 with Zen archery. It was fun having a beastly will save.

There was a feat in 3.5 that gave you Con mod to will saves. But I think you have to take Endurance or some other useless feat to get it. Really helped the fighter but I always liked the Wis fighter background idea (grizzly veteran). 4e did a fantastic job with making a Wis fighter though (fighter in general actually).

Really just about anything Dex covers you can describe with strength or another ability score. Mostly because they say Dex but they don't actually know what they mean.

Initiative? If you are strong enough (leg muscles) then reacting a split second to late won't matter, you will still act first.

Longbow/Light and Heavy crossbow use? Yeah a lot of bow use is determined by strength (drawing the string, pulling the crossbow back fast enough) and a good eye. Last I saw Wisdom and Intelligence is what eye sight is based on (Investigation and Perception)...

Seems like with a little bit of work you can stop Dex from being such a god stat.

If we allowed strength, intelligence, and wisdom to govern a wider variety of core items then we wouldn't have such a huge problem wit MAD (since being mad would help more than hurt).

Then having the Int/Wis/Cha Fighter (or whomever) will be worth more than just skill checks every so often.

[choryukami]

I was actually thinking of how to do this too, which is hoe I got here. I was thinking if you dip barbarian enough to get rage then you take half damage from attacks and can focus on str and con. Your AC doesn't matter if you use reckless attacks anyway. And since you attack so much you get a lot of rage damage. Should probably pick dwarf for the extra hp.

[Ruslan]

Haha, you're right! I clicked on the "latest thread" link and forgot that there were other editions of the game.
Quite forgivable, and I can totally sympathize. Ever since I started playing 5E, I, too, tend to forget there are other editions of the game.

[ThatKreacher]

I would say Barbarian 1/Monk 19. Start off with regular Human for 15 15 13 12 8 8

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 9

Barbarian 1 gives you the alternate unarmoured defense allowing you to use con instead of wisdom, leaving you with 15 AC at level 1(17 if you use a shield, which you can do without penalty at 1st level). for ASI placement I would recommend +2 Wis, +2 Dex, + 2 Str, +2 Str, +2 Con.

At Level 20, you have
Str 20
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 9
Wis 15
Cha 9

It doesn't have amazing stats, and your DC's aren't very high( DC 13 at level 6 when you get stunning strike) but if you want to go strength based monk and use point-buy, you cant have everything. You could also swap dex and strength at level 1, so that you have 16 AC from the start, and pump strength right off the bat.

If you wear a shield, you forfeit the use of martial arts and unarmoured movement(if you need to move fast, drop the shield!) for +2 AC. If you use a martial weapon(such as a greataxe or greatsword) then you forfeit the use of your martial arts only, but can still flurry and stunning strike and use every other monk ability.

[Grixis]

Monk x/Barbarian x is the way to go. Rage adds +2 to each hit and when you flurry that's a lot of attacks to benefit from. I would only go barbarian 4 so you get the ASI, several rages per day, reckless attack, and don't miss out too much on KI point progression.

One way to do it effectively is to take Mobile feat so you go in, use reckless attack and get out of enemy's movement range. You get advantage on attacks and enemy may get none as you also have the best base speed (eventually).

Fact is, Monk's damage rating is highly underrated in general. Once you hit level 6 you can ALWAYS deal damage that is considered magical. Not everyone's adventures get magical weapons, spells that make your weapons magical usually require concentration and the use of a spell slot. When you're the Monk hitting a creature with the typical resistances, your damage output is effectively doubled compared to your allies that are using nonmagical weapons. You don't always hit the hardest compared to other classes but your attacks are ALWAYS effective.

[Talamare]

Monk x/Barbarian x is the way to go. Rage adds +2 to each hit and when you flurry that's a lot of attacks to benefit from. I would only go barbarian 4 so you get the ASI, several rages per day, reckless attack, and don't miss out too much on KI point progression.

One way to do it effectively is to take Mobile feat so you go in, use reckless attack and get out of enemy's movement range. You get advantage on attacks and enemy may get none as you also have the best base speed (eventually).

Fact is, Monk's damage rating is highly underrated in general. Once you hit level 6 you can ALWAYS deal damage that is considered magical. Not everyone's adventures get magical weapons, spells that make your weapons magical usually require concentration and the use of a spell slot. When you're the Monk hitting a creature with the typical resistances, your damage output is effectively doubled compared to your allies that are using nonmagical weapons. You don't always hit the hardest compared to other classes but your attacks are ALWAYS effective.

No
Rage only adds damage to WEAPON attacks
Unarmed Strike is NOT a WEAPON attack

[MeeposFire]

No
Rage only adds damage to WEAPON attacks
Unarmed Strike is NOT a WEAPON attack

But it can be part of a melee weapon attack which is all that rage cares about.

Either way this just shows again how that ruling and subsequent changes in the rules are among the dumbest of all time. All it has done is to confuse people and make us parse phrases far too much for almost nothing.

[Saggo]

No
Rage only adds damage to WEAPON attacks
Unarmed Strike is NOT a WEAPON attack

Unarmed Strike is a simple melee weapon, ch5 p149 PHB. Page 195 even says to refer to the weapon chart.

[Talamare]

Unarmed Strike is a simple melee weapon, ch5 p149 PHB. Page 195 even says to refer to the weapon chart.

http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf

[Saggo]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf

Oh deary me, I forgot my copy didn't have errata.

Well, you're still making a melee weapon attack, Rage would trigger.

“Instead of using a weapon to make a
melee weapon attack, you can use an un-
armed strike"

[BladeWing81]

No way -- all Cha-based classes are out of the question. That's even more MAD than Monk/Barb. There's at least a weak argument for dumping Wis to focus on Str/Dex/Con. There's not even the semblance of an argument for dumping Wis for Dex/Con/Cha.

And I say this as someone who's currently playing a Warlock 1 / Monk 4. I know from experience. It is *painful*. I love my char, but he's not optimized... started with 10 / 16 / 14 / 8 / 14 / 14, bumped Dex to 18 at lvl 4. My Eldritch Blast is -3 attack bonus compared to my primary attack (quarterstaff +1 w/Dex), and you really feel that difference. The only reason I dipped was 1) core to the backstory of the char 2) the Devil's Sight and Mask of Many Faces invocations, which I haven't even gotten yet because I really want to get to Monk 6 first to complete my core combat package before picking up the Warlock toys. And it's sad knowing I'm never, ever going to get my Wis up to 20 because I had to put enough points in Cha to multi-class... oh well. I'll just have to console myself by massacreing my enemies in total silence and darkness while seeing perfectly and then casually walking out looking like a harmless little girl. :)

Wait! You're telling me that you made a Monk/Warlock and didn't take Hex? that's the whole point of making that multiclass, you can start as a warlock but ignore Char and set it as 10 as to not take any penalties (on point buy Half elf is king) and set Dex and Wis up to 16 both if possible, then take Monk at character lvl 2. and never let go except when you want a second helping of hex (warlock gets back his spells with a short rest as with your ki), my recommendation is to take sun soul Monk to get Radiant Sun Bolt and hit from afar at all times, by character lvl 6 you have an awesome Monk that hits with radiant Necrotic energy (1d6 radiant + 1d6 Hex) on each hit of your flurry of blows.

[RickAllison]

Wait! You're telling me that you made a Monk/Warlock and didn't take Hex? that's the whole point of making that multiclass, you can start as a warlock but ignore Char and set it as 10 as to not take any penalties (on point buy Half elf is king) and set Dex and Wis up to 16 both if possible, then take Monk at character lvl 2. and never let go except when you want a second helping of hex (warlock gets back his spells with a short rest as with your ki), my recommendation is to take sun soul Monk to get Radiant Sun Bolt and hit from afar at all times, by character lvl 6 you have an awesome Monk that hits with radiant Necrotic energy (1d6 radiant + 1d6 Hex) on each hit of your flurry of blows.

Multiclass requirements still apply if you are trying to get out of the class. A minor thing, but remember that with Sun Soul you lose the chance to make three attacks per turn without paying ki (at least if you want to take advantage of the RSBs) because they do not get the extra bonus action attack that monks get from Martial Arts. Other than that, yeah, Hex is awesome. Also great for penalizing enemy Athletics checks if you are a suplex Monk!

[BladeWing81]

Multiclass requirements still apply if you are trying to get out of the class. A minor thing, but remember that with Sun Soul you lose the chance to make three attacks per turn without paying ki (at least if you want to take advantage of the RSBs) because they do not get the extra bonus action attack that monks get from Martial Arts. Other than that, yeah, Hex is awesome. Also great for penalizing enemy Athletics checks if you are a suplex Monk!

You still get the extra attack but it comes at monk level 5 (character class 6 at the very least) the multiclass option say that the extra attack features don't stack with each other in the case of lets say warrior 5/ monk 5 but at lvl 6 (warlock 1/ Monk 5) you can make 3 attacks with no ki.

[RickAllison]

You still get the extra attack but it comes at monk level 5 (character class 6 at the very least) the multiclass option say that the extra attack features don't stack with each other in the case of lets say warrior 5/ monk 5 but at lvl 6 (warlock 1/ Monk 5) you can make 3 attacks with no ki.

I was referring to Flurry of Blows, actually. For melee attacks, they can make the three attacks with no ki, but you can't do that with the Sun Soul archetype my post was a response to. The Radiant Sun Bolts include a clause allowing for a FoB-like effect for 1 ki, but it has no equivalent clause for the single bonus action extra attack from Martial Arts. Thus, they only get two RSBs per round for no ki instead of 3 for melee-using monks.

[BladeWing81]

I was referring to Flurry of Blows, actually. For melee attacks, they can make the three attacks with no ki, but you can't do that with the Sun Soul archetype my post was a response to. The Radiant Sun Bolts include a clause allowing for a FoB-like effect for 1 ki, but it has no equivalent clause for the single bonus action extra attack from Martial Arts. Thus, they only get two RSBs per round for no ki instead of 3 for melee-using monks.

OH! right well being sun soul actually works in favor for him if you're a warlock because the extra radiant attack you aren't doing from the bonus action can be used to change the target of hex once the original target has died. besides, hex works with any attack (melee, ranged or spell) so if you're doing the three no ki melee attacks; all of them will get the extra necrotic 1d6 die as well.

[RickAllison]

OH! right well being sun soul actually works in favor for him if you're a warlock because the extra radiant attack you aren't doing from the bonus action can be used to change the target of hex once the original target has died. besides, hex works with any attack (melee, ranged or spell) so if you're doing the three no ki melee attacks; all of them will get the extra necrotic 1d6 die as well.

Oh, absolutely! I'm running a Monklock right now who capitalizes off exactly that :smallbiggrin: In our last session, we were attacked while on an airship by giant vulture-riding goblins. Between my familiar and I, we took out half the attacking force on our own. I just figured it would be good to note the limitation there, because it can very easily come up.

[BladeWing81]

Oh, absolutely! I'm running a Monklock right now who capitalizes off exactly that :smallbiggrin: In our last session, we were attacked while on an airship by giant vulture-riding goblins. Between my familiar and I, we took out half the attacking force on our own. I just figured it would be good to note the limitation there, because it can very easily come up.

What's the best warlock path? I choose Fey because of the faerie fire and sleep, but since its a low lvl character I can still change my mind on the path.

[RickAllison]

What's the best warlock path? I choose Fey because of the faerie fire and sleep, but since its a low lvl character I can still change my mind on the path.

I went with Undying Light because my DM okay'd the radiant damage boost for the monk abilities. Otherwise, I probably would have gone either Fiend or Great Old One for the sake of messing with minds >:)

[BladeWing81]

I went with Undying Light because my DM okay'd the radiant damage boost for the monk abilities. Otherwise, I probably would have gone either Fiend or Great Old One for the sake of messing with minds >:)

Thanks, for that, With False life you could get a little more Hex for your buck by avoiding maybe a couple of more hits. but I think we got out of the theme of the thread.



I'm looking for RAW not homebrew, but thanks for the input.

A strength Monk is only possible if it's going to be a grappler but it's kind of hard when you have to be melee with very low AC. I Know you want only RAW answers but I would strongly suggest changing at least Unarmored Defense to use Strength instead of either Wisdom or Dexterity.

[Erechel]

Monks are no better at grappling than Wizards.
Ignore this guy. This is actually false. Monks are indeed better at this that most classes, except maybe Barbarian. For starters, they have more attacks than anyone else. They could easily pull early the grapple/shove combo in a round (they are both considered attacks), and then punch if you are flurrying (the last attack has advantage). If you go Open Hand, at level 3 your flurries have this effect by themselves. First you use Attack to Grapple, then flurry Attack (Open Hand Technique) to knock down your enemy plus dealing 1d4+strenght mod, then attack again with advantage (1d4+st.) and disable reactions. RAW, it's perfectly valid. You must have proficiency on athletics. What you lose in Advantage you gain on action economy. WOH is just perfect for a grappler. You can pull this without ki expenditure by level 5, and flurrying implies that you attack three times after grappling, the last two with advantage. Remember also that you have Monk's Weapons available: the better ones will be Spear and Quarterstaff (1d8 with Versatility, which wouldn't hinder your Unarmed bonus attacks). This and Polearm Master will be a very decent combo.

And remember that you have better movement, so your grappling movement is also better (you can move about 20 feet grappling a creature at level 2, about 22,5 feet -25, if you have a good master- at level 6). Orcs will be a nightmare, though, as they are highly mobile. If you are insecure, you can always spend a ki point to drag an enemy far from his group (Step of the Wind). Don't worry about arrows: you can catch them on the air (at least 1 of them). By level 18 (I know that is a LOT) your movement is actually doubled, and minor buffs (like Longstrider) can help you a lot. Feats can help you too, but you don't have as much ASIs to expend, and you need high stats. Go strong on Wisdom (first) and Strenght (second). Don't bother as much with Dexterity: for saves you have proficiency.

I do not advise you to take Barbarian to improve CA, as both UD don't stack. Same with Dragon's blood Sorcerer. Also, you'll delay ASIs, that you desperately need. Most people seem to forget that the ASIs are a class feature, and not a level feature. You'll still be dragged by Dex. Multiclassing for level 20 is a theoretical exercise, so... better to keep up as monk. You are best at Wisdom, and pray for a magic item (ring of protection or such). Sure, you will never have a great DC, just decent if you max Wisdom (15), and have at least a +1 on Dex (16). Defense will never be your strenght, so mobility and disabling will be your catch. It's not an optimized build, but it will be an OK build as long as you play smart. You'll be the primary "squishyllator" of your party. Also, you can disable multiple foes with Stunning strikes, ignore the breath of a Red Dragon, and such.
If you are too worried about your defense, you always can burrow the Magic Initiate (Cleric) feat and take Shield of Faith as the L1 Spell, and then the Resistance and Guidance cantrips. Both are Concentration, so you have to choose if you want a better save or a better chance of grappling or SOF and give +2 to armor.

My advise for a dragonborn monk will be: Monk Way of the Open Hand, Wisdom first, Strenght second. A little dex don't hurt, but if you are using point buy, you are best to maximizing Strenght and Wisdom. DON'T RAISE CON, take instead the Tough feat if you need HP, and in that regard it counts as 4 constitution points (take it as early as you need it, delay it if you can). You'll have Con saves sooner or later. At level 1 you should have 17 Str (+3 to Damage/Hit; with flurry this would be enough to do +12 damage at level 5), and then you can take the Athlete feat to raise str to 18. I strongly advise you to take your first ASI to increase Wisdom at level 4. Then you have to raise Wisdom to keep up your Wisdom.
*MAD First level stats Str 17, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 9(10), Wis 15, Cha (9)10. AC 13; HP 8;HIT +5; DMG 1d8+3 plus 1d4+3 (average 13 DPR).
*Alternatively 17, 12, 10, 10, 15, 10
*MAD Fourth Level stats: 17, 14, 10, 9, 16, 10. AC 15; HP 23; HIT +5; DPR 13/19 FOB; grapple +5. INI +2
*Alternatively: 18, 12, 10, 9, 16, 10. AC 14; HP 23; HIT +6; DPR 14/20 FOB; grapple +6. INI +1
*MAD Eight Level stats: 17, 14, 10, 9, 18, 10; AC 16; HP 43; HIT +6; DPR 22.5/29 FOB; grapple +6; INI +2
*Alternatively: 18, 12, 10, 9, 18, 10. AC 15; HP 43; HIT +7; DPR 23.5/30 FOB; grapple +7. INI +1
*MAD Twelve Level stats: 18, 14, 10, 9, 18, 10; AC 16 HP 63; HIT +8; DPR 23.5/30 FOB; grapple +8;INI +2 Athlete feat/Tavern Brawler (useless at this point, your Monk abilities will be enough).
*Alternatively: 18, 12, 10, 10, 20, 10; AC 16; HP 63; HIT +8; DPR 23.5/30 FOB; grapple +8; INI +1
Take Athletics, and go grappler. Use a spear or quarterstaff (the latest if you have a feat to spare), at least until you achieve unarmed d8, and keep up if you can burrow a magic weapon. Use your speed to enter and drag enemies out of line punching them with OHT or dragging them with grapples and ki running. If you are worried by your stamina, you can always exchange some punch for Tough feat. Temporary hit points will be useful if your companions can spare it. Do NOT invest on other classes. You'll delay ASIs, and you need them, and Unarmored Defense don't stack.

[Lombra]

2 level dip in barbarian and then open hand all the way, any of the three races you proposed are good.
A dwarf monk of the order of the great punching beard looks good.
Use the barbarian's unarmored defense instead of the monk's. Your stunning fist won't be exceptional since you shouldn't go higher than 14 in WIS, but those extra HP and grapple-viability makes you scary on the battlefield. Rage when needed will save both you and the party in tough situations.
If you feel like it, you could go up to 3rd level in barbarian for the archetype feature, but you are already delaying too much your extra attack.

Ability score priority should be:
CON=STR>DEX>WIS>INT=CHA

[Finlam]

After reading through the thread, it seems the answer is "No, you can't really make a STR based monk, but you use other classes to dip into monk and have a not useless character."

[Mandragola]

After reading through the thread, it seems the answer is "No, you can't really make a STR based monk, but you use other classes to dip into monk and have a not useless character."

This is essentially correct.

In many ways, Monks are one of the most MAD classes in 5th edition. They rely on their pure stats for their AC, hit points, +to hit, damage and the DCs of their abilities. The fact that they don't use armour or weapons (or at least not for all their attacks) means that magical equipment doesn't help them as much. They live on the front lines and do get hit so you need con as well.

In a way 5th has made this problem slightly worse than it was before. At least in 3.5 your damage keyed off strength, so you needed some. A str-based monk hit harder than a dex-based one in the past, but no longer.

I think it's a shame that there's such a limitation on the classes that work as a monk. I don't find much in the fluff to suggest that there are tons of wood elf, aarakora and ghostwise halfling monks in the worlds of dnd - but in the game there are because they are so good. Meanwhile you might imagine that a half-orc would be good at punching things, but it turns out you'd be wrong.

So on the whole I think I'm in favour of more floating stat bonuses. The idea of giving everyone +3 to spread around as they like does seem a good one.

I do kind of like the idea of a barbarian/monk though. It sounds really weird, but possibly fun. A Mountain dwarf, half-orc or goliath barbarian with a dip for a level or 5 as Monk would be entertaining. No caster wants to find that an angry dwarf with a greataxe has shadow-stepped next to him!

[RickAllison]

On that note, would it negatively impact the game if the monks could take a feat to substitute Strength instead of Dexterity. It seems weird, but seems like it is actually a downgrade in power (Dex is a more common saving throw, a more common skill and/or substitutable (I don't think that is actually a word...) for many Strength skill checks, and important for initiative). So could that be a way to allow for Strength monks?

[Citan]

Hey Playground. I've been mulling over the idea of a Str based monk using point buy and I can't really get the idea to work.

We recently had a new player start up a dragonborn monk and built woefuly ineffective. We had to rework her character to pump up dex and wis but she still feels a bit week compared to the rest of the party.

I'm just wondering if it's possible to do a decent Str based monk going dragoborn, half orc or maybe even mountain dwarf.

The AC hinging on Wis and Dex seems hard to overcome. You can't even slap on armor because you lose nearly all class abilities for that. No flurry ect. Is there a way to do a strength based monk and be viable?
Hi! Well, it's a tough puzzle to crack unfortunately.
By point-buy, the only option I see that could work has several downsides and roleplay implications.

Basically, put WIS as your highest stat, followed by CON and DEX, put STR at a decent level, dump CHA and INT hard, start as a Wood Elf
You should be able to get something like WIS 16 (15+1), DEX 14 (12+2), CON 14, STR 14, INT 8, CHA 8 (or go DEX 16 and STR 12 for better armor).
The idea here is to dip two other classes for one level.
- Rogue will help you with Expertise if you want to Grapple (otherwise it's useless).
- Nature Cleric or Druid will help you overcome your low attack stat thanks to Shillelagh (and you can use Shield of Faith as a Cleric to help compensate your lower AC).

So, you won't actually use your STR to make attacks, but you can still get a good STR score for roleplay and related mechanics.
The big downside is obviously the delay in Monk progression (and not getting DEX saving throw proficiency), but at least you keep most of it ( up to lvl 18 and maybe 19), and it should actually be easier to start as a Cleric than a Monk.
Because until you get a decent amount of Ki, you can wield medium/heavy armor and shield and spend your Ki solely on Dash/Dodge/Disengage.

[Sir cryosin]

I'm working on a concept for this your ac is going to be trash but we are dipping in to barbarian for 2 lv to get rage and reckless attack and martial weapons. So the monk part you are going to go shadow so you can run in slam the enemy with your greatsword. Then shadow step out. I'll be picking up gwm with reckless attack I should be landing most of the time. I will have my wisdom pretty high so when I hit I can stunning strike. Now stunning strike works when you hit with a melee weapon it don't have to be a monk weapons so ya. Now at monk lv7 you get evasion so those dex save are find. So you have trash ac but your raging so your taking half damage. I'm going to try and work in the tought feat if I can.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I tried to do a strength-based monk for a monk/barbarian multi but there's no escaping the bad AC in that build. I came to the realization that the best thing about rage is the damage resistance (especially going Bear Totem) so I just made a monk with high Dex and Wis and Str 13 so he can multi to barbarian and get the rage resistances.

With all the MAD in this build, I was surprised to see that a regular human with his +1 in every stat was the best for the build. With point buy:
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 16
Cha 9

[Dalebert]

Right well except that not every race gets a bonus to dexterity.

That's the meat of the problem, IMHO. It kinda sucks that most characters will be stereotypical due to this. In my homebrews I give everyone a +1 that they can put in any stat that doesn't already have a bonus, either from race or starting feats, except non-variant humans who can put it anywhere.

[Erechel]

Hello!

Dragonborn Str. Based WOH Monk (Point Buy) AKA the Ugly Brute

Pareto, the Dragonmonk
First Level Firelizard
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 15 Cha 9
----------------------------------------------------
HP: 10; CA 12; Speed 30
To Hit +5; Damage 1d8+3 (quarterstaff/ spear) and 1d4+3 (unarmed)
Skills: Athletics +5, others
Breath Weapon Save: 12; damage 2d6 (7) fire

You will mostly disable foes. You can grapple/Knock or directly punch down enemies in one round. Your defense will not be great, but you have some nice AoE with your breath weapon. You are at your weakest point, but again everyone else is, and you can survive if you pick your fights and rely on maneuvering. At level two you always can hit and run (knock down) or suck some damage (17 HP). Level three (24 HP) gives you a schtick with Way of the Open Hand techniques. You can knock down, lock reactions (thus disabling opportunity attacks), and push enemies around (15 feet) with flurries. You’ll be just fine avoiding attacks this way (knock with the first attack, damage with the second, push on the third –with advantage-) or else you can knock down, grab with advantage, and disable reactions, making 1d8+3 plus 1d4+3. You can run or dodge for 1 ki if you are cautious while still doing 1d8+3 damage.

Fourth Level The Heihachi
----------------------------------------------------
Str 18 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 9
----------------------------------------------------
HP: 29; CA 13; Speed 40
To Hit +6; Damage 1d8+4 (quarterstaff/ spear) and 1d4+4 (unarmed)
Breath Weapon Save DC: 12; damage 2d6 (7)
Maneuvers Save DC: 13

First ASI. You will improve a bit your defense and Saving Throw DC, and a lot your attacks. You will outdamage the warriors and barbarians when you flurry, and you can always throw your spear if you are in trouble. As always, you can knock down people with your punches, giving you Advantage on further attacks. Then you grab or push to disable a foe.
Alternatively, if you go tanky, get Tough feat for 8 extra Hit Points (37); the equivalent of 18 Constitution, but you lose some terrain on damage and AC.

Eight Level The Wolf in the Den
----------------------------------------------------
Str 18 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 9
----------------------------------------------------
HP: 73 (Tough feat); CA 13; Speed 45
To Hit +7; Damage 1d8+4 (quarterstaff/ spear) twice, and 1d6+4 (unarmed); total DPR 24,5, 32 with Flurry (8 flurries per short rest, less if you use Stunning Strikes).
Breath Weapon Save DC: 13; damage 3d6 (10,5)
Maneuvers Save DC: 14

Here you go tankier. You still have low AC, but you can suck more damage. You have a great sustained DPR without giving up accuracy (as a Two Weapon Fighter). With a quarterstaff you have reach. Alternatively, you raise Wis to 18, improving your AC and Save DCs.

Twelve Level The Lightning Bruiser unleashed
----------------------------------------------------
Str 18 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha 9
----------------------------------------------------
HP: 118 (Tough feat); CA 14 (**** DM); Speed 50
To Hit +8; Damage 1d8+4 (quarterstaff/ spear) twice, and 1d8+4 (unarmed); total DPR 25.5; 34 with Flurry.
Breath Weapon Save DC: 14; damage 4d6 (14)
Maneuvers Save DC: 16

Your DM is a **** if you don’t have any magical object that grants some protection. You can look at them as a quest, at very least. A single +1 ring or cloak will boost your defense greatly, and the druid or ranger of your party can give you Barkskin. You are great to lockdown enemies or maneuver them over the place (drag them at halfing speed without ki expenditure! Push them over thirty feet kicking them and move on!) Ki everythinIf you don’t take Tough at 8 level, take it here. You really can use some extra crunch.

Sixteenth Level The Monster
----------------------------------------------------
Str 18 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 20 Cha 9
----------------------------------------------------
HP: 154 (Tough feat); CA 15 (**** DM); Speed 55
To Hit +9; Damage 1d8+4 (quarterstaff/ spear) twice, and 1d6+4 (unarmed); total DPR 25.5; 34 with Flurry.
Breath Weapon Save DC: 15; damage 5d6 (17,5) fire
Maneuvers Save DC: 18

Stun, knock, push; stun, knock, push; stun, knock, push. You don’t rely on damage, but on disabling them via punches and kicks. If you have magical weapons, you can add some damage and to-hit to the combo. You are NOT a damage dealer, although you have a decent ratio. Alternatively, you can invest on Strength instead of Wisdom. Your AC will not be awesome, but your Hit Points and mobility will be enough to keep you alive. Minor buffs as Longstrider or Barkskin will improve your capabilities a lot.

Nineteenth Level The Real Dragon
----------------------------------------------------
Str 20 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 20 Cha 9
----------------------------------------------------
HP: 181 (Tough feat); CA 15 (**** DM); Speed 60
To Hit +11; Damage 1d10+5 trice (unarmed); total DPR 28.5; 38 with Flurry.
Breath Weapon Save DC: 15; damage 5d6 (17,5) fire
Maneuvers Save DC: 19

You can punch holes on the universe (astral projection for free) and grab a flying ancient red dragon on a jump (athletics +11) and outrun a horse (step of the wind). You fall slowly but the dragon has a hard rock fall. You are untouchable as long as you don’t engage on a fight, and even then you are invisible. Empty body makes you resistant to almost everything, you have excellent Saving Throws (+5 to Intelligence and Charisma, the lowest), and you can evade. You can even kill it spending 3 Ki points. Seriously. You can kill a dragon on two rounds with Quivering Palm, or at the very least deal it 55 necrotic damage with his Legendary Resistance save whilst you punch it and push it around like a boss.
Level twenty is redundant, you only have infinite ki.

See? There is no need for Dexterity. But you are dumb as a rock and ugly as an orc’s underwear. Give it the background that you like and chose the proficiency. Remember that you can knock down in the first blow (dealing damage on the process) and have advantage on attacks.

[Jamesps]

Playing a strength based monk is much more about tactical choices than builds. Mostly you just have to accept your melee defenses are going to be terrible, and figure out a way to deal with that.

I'd suggest just giving up on getting good AC and build otherwise like you would a normal monk with strength substituted for dexterity. Strength, constitution and wisdom. Play a human variant and pick up mobility. I know monks can already hit and run, but it costs them ki and you have to be able to retreat from melee every single round, no exceptions.

Stay alive using the following tactics:

1) Run up and hit your foe, then run back behind your party's front line
2) Run up and hit your foe, then grapple them. Then run up a wall and drop them back down.
3) Run up and hit your foe, grapple them and use leap of the heavens (you actually have strength, so you should be able to jump 16 feet in the air eventually) and deposit them in an out of the way location. Then retreat.

Remember your movement will be 50 starting at 2nd level, and you can improve this to 100 with ki. Furthermore, since you actually have strength unlike normal monks you can pull of some pretty ridiculous jumping tricks. With a 40 foot long jump you can get some pretty crazy maneuverability on your 100 feet of movement (or 50 feet of movement that ignores AOE's).

I actually played a Barbarian/Monk in a game for a while and he was pretty useful as a troop transport mechanism. He could lift any of the other characters in the party without too much trouble and move them around or out of the battlefield as necessary. There was one sessions where he grabbed the cleric who had been trapped behind a wall of stone, jumped over the stone wall and deposited the cleric, with spirit guardians running, into a mass of enemies.

[R.Shackleford]

On that note, would it negatively impact the game if the monks could take a feat to substitute Strength instead of Dexterity. It seems weird, but seems like it is actually a downgrade in power (Dex is a more common saving throw, a more common skill and/or substitutable (I don't think that is actually a word...) for many Strength skill checks, and important for initiative). So could that be a way to allow for Strength monks?


Yes.

Because that would be a bad use of a feat.

They really should just be a base rule in the monk as it doesn't really change the monk all that much due to all their limitations for their abilities.

[RickAllison]

Yes.

Because that would be a bad use of a feat.

They really should just be a base rule in the monk as it doesn't really change the monk all that much due to all their limitations for their abilities.

Yeah. There is a way to make a very effective Strength monk!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7f/50/42/7f5042aec1b472d33755f5f98de9da08.jpg

Werebears! Automatic 19 to Str doesn't make for an unbalanced character, right? Right?

... Guys?

[R.Shackleford]

Yeah. There is a way to make a very effective Strength monk!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7f/50/42/7f5042aec1b472d33755f5f98de9da08.jpg

Werebears! Automatic 19 to Str doesn't make for an unbalanced character, right? Right?

... Guys?

Anything is broken when a DM steps in and hands out flat upgrades.

I prefer Whobears tho.

[Mandragola]

The monk class does seem to illustrate the problem of fixed racial stats. A race without bonuses to wis or dex really struggles, with an AC 2 points lower than a wood elf at level 1.

This problem stems from a sensible attempt to Make monks (and everyone else) less MAD, by taking strength out of the equation on damage rolls with finesse weapons. In 3.x you still needed some strength as a monk or your hits didn't do much. A strong monk had a lower at but did more damage. Now there's really nothing good about strength.

The other thing is that the races that make great monks - wood elves, aarakora and ghostwise halflibgs - don't really seem like they should. None seem like they would be likely to go for a life of discipline, meditation and training. It's correct that they make good Rangers and Druids, but not monks. Or at least, it's not right that they make the best monks.

Similarly, it makes sense that dwarves, dragonborn and goliaths make good fighters and paladins, but not that they make awful monks. Physical size and strength is a major asset in a hand to hand fight (though obviously not all that matters). Their societies also tend to be lawful, and it's easier to believe that there'd be people practicing martial arts in their settlements.

[Erechel]

Playing a strength based monk is much more about tactical choices than builds. Mostly you just have to accept your melee defenses are going to be terrible, and figure out a way to deal with that.

I'd suggest just giving up on getting good AC and build otherwise like you would a normal monk with strength substituted for dexterity. Strength, constitution and wisdom. Play a human variant and pick up mobility. I know monks can already hit and run, but it costs them ki and you have to be able to retreat from melee every single round, no exceptions.

Stay alive using the following tactics:

1) Run up and hit your foe, then run back behind your party's front line
2) Run up and hit your foe, then grapple them. Then run up a wall and drop them back down.
3) Run up and hit your foe, grapple them and use leap of the heavens (you actually have strength, so you should be able to jump 16 feet in the air eventually) and deposit them in an out of the way location. Then retreat.

Remember your movement will be 50 starting at 2nd level, and you can improve this to 100 with ki. Furthermore, since you actually have strength unlike normal monks you can pull of some pretty ridiculous jumping tricks. With a 40 foot long jump you can get some pretty crazy maneuverability on your 100 feet of movement (or 50 feet of movement that ignores AOE's).

I actually played a Barbarian/Monk in a game for a while and he was pretty useful as a troop transport mechanism. He could lift any of the other characters in the party without too much trouble and move them around or out of the battlefield as necessary. There was one sessions where he grabbed the cleric who had been trapped behind a wall of stone, jumped over the stone wall and deposited the cleric, with spirit guardians running, into a mass of enemies.

This. Yet the opening post talks about a Dragonborn Monk, hence I threw my Pareto judoka master. You essentialy give up on having high AC, but you gain some crunchiness on HP by having 14 Con and Though feat at level 8. It's not as bad as you may think, you'll have AC 13, but about 73 HP about as much as a Fighter. And you have many features to keep up (speed, free maneuvers like pushing or knocking down) that render you useful. At level 12 you are a force to be seen. If you are a human, you can add some crunchiness to the mix earlier (taking Tough feat at level 1, thus having 12 HP and AC 13, 16 str and Wis, so better resilience early). You will not have Breat Weapon, but Feats are great to make things work better.

[jas61292]

Am I missing something, cause I really don't get the barbarian dips. I mean, I guess reckless attack and rage are nice, but... that doesn't seem to fix the issues with the monk. Your AC is normally Dex+Wis. If you go Barbarian, it becomes Dex+Con. If the goal is to use Str instead of Dex, trading your secondary stat for your tertiary stat seems like you are nerfing yourself, not buffing yourself.

Personally, if I wanted a Str based Monk, I would take my first level in fighter and pick up Heavy Armor and the Defense fighting style (or whatever other style you really want). You lose martial arts and unarmored speed, but with a build like this, I probably wouldn't care. Once you get past low levels, Monks are not good damage dealers. Losing monk damage barely matters as you can just use a weapon with your normal attacks, and can usually find something else good to do with your bonus action. Monk are good at control, thanks to Stunning, and they are surprisingly good at defense, with tons of abilities that let them avoid or shake off damage and debilitating effects, including the ability to dodge as a bonus action, which at higher levels, you can afford to do almost every round. Overall a build like this will be different than a normal monk, but will arguably be no worse at the defensive and control aspects that a monk brings to the table, which are its most important aspects.

Ultimately, if you are looking for a traditional unarmored, fast punching martial artist, going with Str over Dex just does not work. But if you only care about using the monk class and not so much about the monk stereotype, it can work out fine.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Am I missing something, cause I really don't get the barbarian dips. I mean, I guess reckless attack and rage are nice, but... that doesn't seem to fix the issues with the monk. Your AC is normally Dex+Wis. If you go Barbarian, it becomes Dex+Con.

As far as I'm concerned, the only reason to dip barbarian for monk is the damage resistance, which is fantastic. If you start 1st level as monk, your unarmored defense will be Wis and Dex. As I noted a few posts up, you can have a Dex/Wis based monk with str 13 to dip barbarian and end up with a monk with the AC you would want plus having a totem barbarian's damage resistance, making your monk even harder to kill than a normal monk is.

[Biggstick]

Is it really that much of a problem to just change the Monk class to be based off of Strength and Wisdom instead of Dexterity and Wisdom? To be honest it's a downgrade from Dex, as Str isn't nearly as universally useful as Dex. Since it's not as useful a stat, you're "nerfing" the class every so slightly to allow a PC to play what they want. Encourage them to go the Open Hand route, and they'll have a pretty solid example of what a Str Monk can do.

Stronger Str save (which you're already proficient in).
Stronger Athletics checks (which is on the skill list for Monks).
Higher carry/push/drag/lift capacity (game dependent on value).
Str and Wis now determine your AC.
Str now determines your Attack bonus with Monk weapons (fists, short swords, simple weapons w/o the two-handed or heavy property).
+Str to attacks with Monk Weapons.
Str now plays a part in your ability to deflect missiles.
Being a buff Monk instead of one that is all skinny and wiry. (sarcasm)


Weaker Dex save (You have Evasion at level 7, this loses some value if you can't make the Dex saves)
Weaker Dex checks (this includes Acrobatics and Stealth, both of which are on the Monk skill list)
Lower Initiative Checks (This is pretty important)
Weaker ranged attacks (utilizing a bow is something you'll have difficulty doing with a low Dex and no Archery fighting style)


Taking a look through these makes me think that the only thing a PC gains by swapping Dex and Str in the Monk class is an increased Athletics check and the ability to carry more. They lose so much in terms of what people typically define as Monk strengths (higher initiative, successfully dodging AOE attacks, kiting from range) that I think it's a fine adjustment that a DM could make for a PC.

[GrimZealot]

Why hasn't anyone considered using the Magic Initiate feat to acquire Shield of Faith?

I saw Bark Skin being suggested earlier, but that's a level 2 spell. Shield of Faith is a 1st level spell so it's more easily attained and eligible for Magic Initiate. Bark Skin brings your minimum AC to 16, but Shield of Faith would boost it by +2 regardless of how high or low it is. Granted, you'd have to multi-class or play Variant Human to acquire it at level 1, but you could grab it by level 4 minimum.

You could aim to start with a Wisdom of 16 minimum to start with at least 13 AC. If you weren't playing point buy, you could even start with 18. You'd start with either 13 or 14 AC based off of Wisdom, then add +2 from Shield of Faith to it for a AC of 15 or 16. A future ASI or two could get your Wisdom up to 18 or 20, at which point your AC could be 16 or 17 with Shield of Faith. This get's better if your Dexterity is at least decent. A 12 or 14 in Dexterity is enough to boost your earlier AC to 14-16 off the bat, and a future AC of 16-18 without Shield of Faith.

Using this strategy you can utilize a strong Monk DC with Wisdom and still lean into your Strength stat with a strong early ability score of 14-16 with point buy, or even 18 when rolling. For safety, it's best to start investing into Strength later rather than earlier, but you could make this work just fine.

Obviously, it goes without saying that all of these efforts to make your AC acceptable would be made far easier with a team boosting your AC for you. But I think this forum was meant to be an exercise in determining a means for a Strength Monk to be self-sufficient. Also, items like Bracers of Armor makes this easier too. If you have any means to acquire non-armor AC in the form of items, it could make this process so much easier.

As an additional note, the Dual Wielder feat grants a +1 to AC. It does require you to actually dual-wield of course. If that's not your thing, this feat is kind of a waste honestly, especially when considering the main benefit of this feat is to dual-wield two weapons that are too large to utilize the Monk's Martial Arts ability... but you could do it if you REALLY WANTED TO.

[djreynolds]

Yes this is possible but something has to give.

I began as a barbarian, using dex and con for my unarmored defense. You need con anyhow and its not difficult to have at least 14s in these 2 stats.

Human Variant 15/14/14/8/12/8..... becomes 16/14/14/8/13/8 and I took mobile. You AC is 14 for awhile, but you can take more barbarian to mitigate damage.

So yes wisdom will be left at 13, and your AC will get up to around 16

You don't need a 20 in your strength either, an 18 will do.

I end up with 18/14/20/8/13/8 and 17AC at 16 MONK/1 BARB. And oodles of HP and speed and no save less than +5.

I would recommend 17 monk/3 barb.

[Easy_Lee]

This thread has been necro'd. That said, I've been working on a homebrew fighter archetype: boxer. It emphasizes endurance, counter attacks, and evasiveness. Would that interest anyone here?

[Spacehamster]

Not really possible to "optimize" such a build, probably best to take a normal human for +1 all stats and have a 12 or 14 in STR and describe him as unusually brawny and muscular for a monk but still go with AGI as your main attack stat. :)

[GrimZealot]

This thread has been necro'd. That said, I've been working on a homebrew fighter archetype: boxer. It emphasizes endurance, counter attacks, and evasiveness. Would that interest anyone here?

Yes. Do tell.

[GrimZealot]

Not sure if Unearthed Arcana is something that is being considered here, but the article "A Trio of Subclasses" does detail the Oath of Redemption Paladin. It has a 3rd level feature named "Armor of Peace" that states that while not wearing armor or a shield, your AC = 16 + your dex modifier. Which I think is ridiculous, but there it is.

It would require dumping 3 levels into Paladin, but you could play a Strength based Monk at a minimum of 16 AC regardless of your ability scores (Assuming your dexterity isn't negative). At worst it's 16, at best it's 21. If you're fine either starting a Paladin or diverting into a Paladin for 3 levels, this could make the Strength Monk work perfectly fine at level 4+.

The Monk flavor also meshes well the Oath of Redemption Paladin.

[Easy_Lee]

Yes. Do tell.

Here's the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535136-Martial-Archetype-Boxer&p=22348629

[djreynolds]

Here's the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535136-Martial-Archetype-Boxer&p=22348629

That's pretty cool

-------------------------------------------

The reality is when players think of unarmed strikes we think fists.

Obviously, unarmed strikes are with any body part

I mean you could just play dual wield light hammers with a fighter chassis and call it a day and then move up to dual wielding hammers

What we need to something more representative of styles?

Like a monk could perform a leaping kick, which could use dex to hit and maybe strength for damage and qualify for GWM.

Put unfortunately we are left with punches, elbows, knees and kicks and headbutts that are all 1d6, then 1d8, then 1d10

Instead of saying punches are 1d6, knees and elbows are 1d8, and some kicks are 1d10 and perhaps some kicks are 1d6 or 1d8.

[DualShadow]

I know OP is trying to go RAW Monk class. But really, when it comes to a STR unarmed fighting guy I think VerminSterling's Pugilist (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/184921/the-Pugilist-Class?) is exactly what fits the bill.