bard spellcasting

[rhysclifford]

Is bard's spell casting ability something you must be born with or is it something you can learn ?

[atemu1234]

On a meta level, anyone may take a level of bard, with no requirements, but to cast spells a certain inborn level of charisma is necessary.

[rhysclifford]

this is purely from a role play point of view, see a sorceress gains magic from there bloodline or at least in FR lore, so you technically have to be born with it, but i cannot find anything on bard except that it comes from the soul

[(Un)Inspired]

Is bard's spell casting ability something you must be born with or is it something you can learn ?

Both. You need to take levels in bard to cast spells which equates to training and you need at least a 10 charisma which is from birth.

There are exceptions to both of course.

[holywhippet]

Technically anybody who can cast arcane spells spontaneously is considered to be descended from a dragon since one of the requirements to enter the dragon disciple class is to be able to cast arcane spells without preparing them first. The point of said class is to draw out your dragon heritage.

[Deophaun]

this is purely from a role play point of view, see a sorceress gains magic from there bloodline or at least in FR lore...
While technically true, consider that in most established settings, enough time has passed for most everyone to be descended from a dragon at some point in their ancestry. Thus, everyone has the potential to become a sorcerer. It just comes easier to some.

[(Un)Inspired]

Technically anybody who can cast arcane spells spontaneously is considered to be descended from a dragon since one of the requirements to enter the dragon disciple class is to be able to cast arcane spells without preparing them first. The point of said class is to draw out your dragon heritage.

By that logic all wizards are descended from dragons because they can cast without preparing spells if they are built in a certain way.

[holywhippet]

While technically true, consider that in most established settings, enough time has passed for most everyone to be descended from a dragon at some point in their ancestry. Thus, everyone has the potential to become a sorcerer. It just comes easier to some.

Therein lies the problem with most D&D settings/logic. If everyone has some dragon blood then everyone should be using magic. Why would a farmer use manual labor if they could just do most of their work with some spells. Even prestidigitation alone can make life a lot easier. For sorcerers and bards it's usually easier to assume they just happen to have some draconic heritage.

[Forrestfire]

Bardic magic, like wizardry, is learnable (there are schools), and its power source in 3.5's default fluff is something similar to incarnum. Specifically:



A bard’s magic comes from the heart. If his heart is good, a bard brings hope and courage to the downtrodden and uses his tricks, music, and magic to thwart the schemes of evildoers. If the nobles of the land are corrupt, the good bard is an enemy of the state, cunningly evading capture and raising the spirits of the oppressed. But music can spring from an evil heart as well. Evil bards forego blatant violence in favor of manipulation, holding sway over the hearts and minds of others and taking what enraptured audiences “willingly” give.

...

A bard brings forth magic from his soul, not from a book. He can cast only a small number of spells, but he can do so without selecting or preparing them in advance.

A bard gets their magic's power from their soul itself, and their choice of spells known is based on what kind of person they are, and what they decided to learn.


Technically anybody who can cast arcane spells spontaneously is considered to be descended from a dragon since one of the requirements to enter the dragon disciple class is to be able to cast arcane spells without preparing them first. The point of said class is to draw out your dragon heritage.

Untrue. There are examples of arcane spellcasters who got their powers from gods, got their powers from magic radiation, got their powers from a racial connection to a well of shadowy power, and even some who got their powers by virtue of being genetically-engineered to have sorcerous magic. On top of that, there are those powered by fey, outsider blood, or just weird mixes of elf blood. Wizards themselves require no special bloodline, just the chance to study and learn how to do it; in D&D's default fluff, the laws of physics includes arcane magic. It's just a thing anyone can do if they learn it (represented by having a feat to grant spells, or taking levels in a class). Contrast psionics, which, fluffwise, requires a spark of talent before one can train in it (even if a level 7+ psion can forcibly awaken that spark of talent in someone).

Anyone who takes levels in Dragon Disciple is retroactively assumed to have some amount of dragon blood in them, but it is not the default source of arcane magic.

[Deophaun]

Therein lies the problem with most D&D settings/logic. If everyone has some dragon blood then everyone should be using magic. Why would a farmer use manual labor if they could just do most of their work with some spells. Even prestidigitation alone can make life a lot easier. For sorcerers and bards it's usually easier to assume they just happen to have some draconic heritage.
The problem lies in the assumption that everyone can do it with relative ease compared to learning how to farm or how to build a boat. The problem also lies in assuming that, within the living world as opposed to the mechanics players have access to, natural spellcasters can pick and choose their spells. NPCs might take years of training just to learn that the power in their blood can only manage a ray of frost. Thank Pelor, the farm is saved!

[holywhippet]

The problem lies in the assumption that everyone can do it with relative ease compared to learning how to farm or how to build a boat. The problem also lies in assuming that, within the living world as opposed to the mechanics players have access to, natural spellcasters can pick and choose their spells. NPCs might take years of training just to learn that the power in their blood can only manage a ray of frost. Thank Pelor, the farm is saved!

That's pretty much the problem as I see it though. The PCs, plus a select number of NPCs, are the ones who just happen to be able to achieve heights that others can only dream of. In theory they aren't any different to all the other people in the world but somehow they are.

You could ask the same question of why people don't all become clerics. Wouldn't every parent like to be able to cast healing magic in case their child gets hurt?

[Forrestfire]

Because it's hard.

Not all people become clerics because you either need to be devoted enough to a god to get granted spells, or you need to be so devoted to a cause or ideal that reality itself bends to do your bidding. People who fall into those categories aren't super common (they aren't super-rare, either, though).

A small hamlet of 81-400 people likely has at least one cleric (on average, 1 or 3 clerics). A metropolis of 25,001 people will have, on average, four 15th level clerics, eight 7th-level clerics, sixteen 3rd-level clerics, and thirty-two 1st-level clerics, or four 16th-level clerics, eight 8th-levels, sixteen 4th-levels, thirty-two 2nd-levels, and sixty-four 1st-levels. This is about one in 200-400ish people. Course, you can increase the size of the metropolis by a bunch, but you could also roll higher on the D6s, greatly increasing the number of clerics.

There are about 900,000 doctors in the United States. Its population is 316.1 million. There are probably about a similar density of clerics as there are doctors, and that's before we take into account their Adept apprentices with NPC classes, archivists working with them, and other healy classes. Honestly, most communities in D&D are probably pretty well-off for medical professionals.

[(Un)Inspired]

The problem lies in the assumption that everyone can do it with relative ease compared to learning how to farm or how to build a boat. The problem also lies in assuming that, within the living world as opposed to the mechanics players have access to, natural spellcasters can pick and choose their spells. NPCs might take years of training just to learn that the power in their blood can only manage a ray of frost. Thank Pelor, the farm is saved!

Is any of this in the rules?

[Deophaun]

Is any of this in the rules?
Blue color tags do help. You had me for a moment.

[Psyren]

Because it's hard.

Not all people become clerics because you either need to be devoted enough to a god to get granted spells, or you need to be so devoted to a cause or ideal that reality itself bends to do your bidding. People who fall into those categories aren't super common (they aren't super-rare, either, though).

A small hamlet of 81-400 people likely has at least one cleric (on average, 1 or 3 clerics). A metropolis of 25,001 people will have, on average, four 15th level clerics, eight 7th-level clerics, sixteen 3rd-level clerics, and thirty-two 1st-level clerics, or four 16th-level clerics, eight 8th-levels, sixteen 4th-levels, thirty-two 2nd-levels, and sixty-four 1st-levels. This is about one in 200-400ish people. Course, you can increase the size of the metropolis by a bunch, but you could also roll higher on the D6s, greatly increasing the number of clerics.

There are about 900,000 doctors in the United States. Its population is 316.1 million. There are probably about a similar density of clerics as there are doctors, and that's before we take into account their Adept apprentices with NPC classes, archivists working with them, and other healy classes. Honestly, most communities in D&D are probably pretty well-off for medical professionals.

This. Even if you go with the metagame logic that most PCs can simply "take a level" of a certain class as being an actual fact of the setting, PCs themselves are extremely rare or minority figures - just by being one you're already exceptional, and the ones who can be bards or clerics or {other caster here} are even rarer than that.

[holywhippet]

This. Even if you go with the metagame logic that most PCs can simply "take a level" of a certain class as being an actual fact of the setting, PCs themselves are extremely rare or minority figures - just by being one you're already exceptional, and the ones who can be bards or clerics or {other caster here} are even rarer than that.

Yeah, and that's the part I have trouble with. Who are the PCs? Did a divine being show up at their birth? Are they the chosen ones of prophecy? Were they blessed by drinking from a legendary well of power? Are they descended from a long line of heroes or some legendary figure? Nope, they are just ordinary folk who ended up going out to kill monsters and take their treasure for one reason or another. Yet they, unlike others, can freely take class levels including caster classes. It's like the gods of the world say "Hey, those people like killing monsters and taking their treasure. Lets do something nice for them".

[Psyren]

Yeah, and that's the part I have trouble with. Who are the PCs? Did a divine being show up at their birth? Are they the chosen ones of prophecy? Were they blessed by drinking from a legendary well of power? Are they descended from a long line of heroes or some legendary figure? Nope, they are just ordinary folk who ended up going out to kill monsters and take their treasure for one reason or another. Yet they, unlike others, can freely take class levels including caster classes. It's like the gods of the world say "Hey, those people like killing monsters and taking their treasure. Lets do something nice for them".

And yet, if they are just "ordinary folk," why don't they have the standard array that so-called ordinary folk are expected to have, or even the elite array?

So the clear expectation is that, yes, they are meant to be exceptional individuals from the word go, at least potentially.

[Deophaun]

Yeah, and that's the part I have trouble with. Who are the PCs? Did a divine being show up at their birth?
Yup. Those divine beings are called "players." They authored the lives of these PCs, their families, friends, foes, fears, and dreams, have a remarkable omniscience, as if the whole realm of possibilities were published in readily accessible books. I hear they are even capable of intercessing directly with the power responsible for everything else in the world on the character's behalf.