savage progression

[Shadowscale]

What would the savage progression levels for a bugbear look like? Also can you buy off its one level of adjustment and then have a decent barbarian/rogue like character? Maybe throwing in some flaws to catch up with feats.

[Malimar]

To answer your second question first: No, the bugbear's 3 Humanoid hit dice are rubbish, even worse than LA because you can't pay them off, and there's hardly anything bugbear gives you to make up for it. +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma, +3 natural armor bonus, +4 Move Silently, Darkvision 60, and scent? There are 0HD LA+0 races that have more than that.

To answer your first question: I might lay it out something like this:

1d8HD: +2 con, -2 cha, 1 NA, darkvision 60
2d8HD: +2 str, +4 Move Silently
2d8HD: +2 dex, 2 NA
3d8HD: +2 str, 3 NA, scent

[Shadowscale]

To answer your second question first: No, the bugbear's 3 Humanoid hit dice are rubbish, even worse than LA because you can't pay them off, and there's hardly anything bugbear gives you to make up for it. +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma, +3 natural armor bonus, +4 Move Silently, Darkvision 60, and scent? There are 0HD LA+0 races that have more than that.

To answer your first question: I might lay it out something like this:

1d8HD: +2 con, -2 cha, 1 NA, darkvision 60
2d8HD: +2 str, +4 Move Silently
2d8HD: +2 dex, 2 NA
3d8HD: +2 str, 3 NA, scent


Are three levels really that awful?

[Malimar]

Are three levels really that awful?

Enhh, I mean, at least you're getting HP, skill points, and reflex save out of your RHD? So there's room for argument on whether Humanoid HD are strictly worse than LA (especially because you wouldn't actually be able to pay off +4LA anyway), but they're certainly comparable. (I don't recall whether Humanoid is the very worst RHD, but it's certainly down there near the bottom.)

Compare that savage progression to, say, rogue, which gives you 2d6 sneak attack, evasion, the ability to deal with traps, and lots more skill points in the same span of levels. And rogue isn't even high tier. Sure, the ability score bonuses seem nifty, if only because there are so few classes that give ability score bonuses; compared to ability to actually do things with, high ability scores aren't so great. Especially strength, overvalued by the designers since day one.

[Shadowscale]

Enhh, I mean, at least you're getting HP, skill points, and reflex save out of your RHD? So there's room for argument on whether Humanoid HD are strictly worse than LA (especially because you wouldn't actually be able to pay off +4LA anyway), but they're certainly comparable. (I don't recall whether Humanoid is the very worst RHD, but it's certainly down there near the bottom.)

Compare that savage progression to, say, rogue, which gives you 2d6 sneak attack, evasion, the ability to deal with traps, and lots more skill points in the same span of levels. And rogue isn't even high tier. Sure, the ability score bonuses seem nifty, if only because there are so few classes that give ability score bonuses; compared to ability to actually do things with, high ability scores aren't so great. Especially strength, overvalued by the designers since day one.

I've always felt the two stronger goblonoids level adjustments were a bit high too be honest.
With ogres and bugbears being my favorite races, the hit die to eat sure is big. I Guess I'd just have to accept being not as good. Does Scent have any decent potential to work with at least? I think goblinnoid only prestige classes might exist as well.

[Flickerdart]

Are three levels really that awful?
Three levels are awful because you could have character levels instead of those. RHD also don't count as levels for LA buyoff, so that delays things as well. There are some decent RHD (Dragon and Outsider hit dice have high skill points and full BAB) but Humanoid ain't it.

[Malimar]

I've always felt the two stronger goblonoids level adjustments were a bit high too be honest.
With ogres and bugbears being my favorite races, the hit die to eat sure is big. I Guess I'd just have to accept being not as good. Does Scent have any decent potential to work with at least? I think goblinnoid only prestige classes might exist as well.

Looking at the list of what bugbear gives you, I thought Scent could be the most useful and interesting thing on the list. Basically a poor man's blindsense, but also aids in tracking? I honestly don't know whether or not that would be often useful in actual play.

The only goblinoid-only PrC I know of is Stonedeath Assassin (Races of Stone), which isn't terrible, though the closer I look the less good it is.

It's too bad there was never an orcs&ogres&goblinoids splatbook. That would've been useful stuff.

[Shadowscale]

Looking at the list of what bugbear gives you, I thought Scent could be the most useful and interesting thing on the list. Basically a poor man's blindsense, but also aids in tracking? I honestly don't know whether or not that would be often useful in actual play.

The only goblinoid-only PrC I know of is Stonedeath Assassin (Races of Stone), which isn't terrible, though the closer I look the less good it is.

It's too bad there was never an orcs&ogres&goblinoids splatbook. That would've been useful stuff.

Yeah like add in hill giant and I'm sure that'd be a book people would want to buy, I mean I can't be the only person to love savage humanoids? Maybe one of these days one of these pathfinder publishers I keep seeing threads for will make one.

[torrasque666]

Looking at the list of what bugbear gives you, I thought Scent could be the most useful and interesting thing on the list. Basically a poor man's blindsense, but also aids in tracking? I honestly don't know whether or not that would be often useful in actual play.

The only goblinoid-only PrC I know of is Stonedeath Assassin (Races of Stone), which isn't terrible, though the closer I look the less good it is.

It's too bad there was never an orcs&ogres&goblinoids splatbook. That would've been useful stuff.

But that would have been encouraging people to play those evil races!

[Shadowscale]

But that would have been encouraging people to play those evil races!

wasn't there a book of the dead at some point?

[Troacctid]

Looking at the list of what bugbear gives you, I thought Scent could be the most useful and interesting thing on the list. Basically a poor man's blindsense, but also aids in tracking? I honestly don't know whether or not that would be often useful in actual play.

It's certainly not worth 3 levels. Swordsages get it at 1st level.

[Shadowscale]

It's certainly not worth 3 levels. Swordsages get it at 1st level.

I honestly despise tomb of battle. it makes all other martials feel inadequate and tries to balance martials with casters which isn't meant to be.

[Troacctid]

Warlocks get it at 1st level too. And Wizards and Sorcerers get blindsense at 1st level, which is pretty similar.

[Flickerdart]

I honestly despise tomb of battle. it makes all other martials feel inadequate and tries to balance martials with casters which isn't meant to be.
Casters already make martials feel inadequate. The idea that they shouldn't be equals goes against the stated goals of 3.5 and constant repetition from the fluff in the books that every character class is supposed to be equally powerful, so you don't exactly have ground to stand on here with your claims.

There are some people who have difficulty wrapping their head around the idea that a guy with a sword can do cool things. But a fighter isn't just a newbie who picked up a stick - that would be a 1st level commoner NPC with 2 hit points and 10s in all scores. A 2nd level rogue is already breaking the laws of physics by dodging a fireball without moving from his space. By level 20, these heroes are tough enough to jump from space and cushion the fall with their face.

If you have trouble with the concept that magic shouldn't just be better because it's magic, consider the following: a level 1 fighter and a level 1 wizard don't need to have spent the same amount of time getting there. A 1st level fighter can be a seasoned veteran of many battles, the cream of the crop when it comes to warriors (inexperienced fighters are NPC classes and have no place in a heroic fantasy adventure). A 1st level wizard can be an apprentice barely graduated from wizarding high school. This setup makes it extraordinarily easy to justify martial characters being on equal footing with spellcasters, and from that point on all you need to do is rebalance the mechanics. ToB takes a great step in that direction.

[big teej]

What would the savage progression levels for a bugbear look like? Also can you buy off its one level of adjustment and then have a decent barbarian/rogue like character? Maybe throwing in some flaws to catch up with feats.

if I may,

the LA rules, LA buy-off, the savage progression, and associated rules are garbage - in my opinion.

I do not know if you would find it helpful, but spoilered below is a hopefully coherent and helpful explanation of how I tend to handle things.

to answer the question of power/usefulness and whatnot (I saw people point out the usefulness of 3 racial hit die vs. any 3 class levels)

instead ask yourself, what are you seeking to gain from playing a monstrous critter? (such as a bugbear, or ogre, or half dragon)

are you seeking an alternative means of acquiring power? (stat bumps, special abilties, etc.)

Or are you seeking TO PLAY A FREAKING *critter* BECAUSE I THINK *critters* ARE AWESOME

if it is the former, I suggest you heed the advice given concerning what you're getting for being a bugbear contrasted with playing a given class.

IF, however, you seek to play a critter for the experience of playing a critter. I say "to hell with it" in regards to power/optimization concerns and play the critter!

to that end, I return to my point about how *I* handle these things for my players. with a few quick and dirty examples.



for starters, I must state that there is not a blanket system for how I handle a player requesting to play a monstrous critter, there are a few guidelines, if you will. or perhaps it would be better to call it a 'test'.

I examine the critter(s) in question on a case by case basis, I look at things like how many Racial Hit Die they have, Special abilities they gain, stat bumps, Natural Armor, etc.

I then ask myself if these things can be reasonably spread out over the critter's RHD and/or LA

a few quick and dirty examples

Pre-emptive Edit:
Originally had more examples, but was taking up WAAAAAY too much space and time as an illustration

The Goliath (Races of Stone, LA+1)
- the Goliath is the simplest example I have. a goliath may be played from level 1, they gain all of their racial abilities as normal (powerful build, skill bonuses, etc.) and instead of +1LA and a class level, they fill in all the blanks with a single Monstrous Humanoid hit die. this gives them their Hit Points/die, skill points, saves, proficiencies, etc. for that first level.

boom, over, done with.

hit 1,000 XP, welcome to class levels buddy.

The Ogre (Core)
- the ogre is a critter I have played on multiple occaisions (becuase I find the idea of being a massive living seige engine to be tirelessly entertaining)

the Ogre has 4 racial hit die, and an LA of +2

this means that everything the ogre character gains must be spread out between 4 and 6 levels.

an ogre as a player character gains
+10 Strength
- 2 Dexterity
+ 4 Constitution
- 4 Intelligence
- 4 Charisma

Large Size

Darkvision

2+int skill points per hit die (x4 at first hit die)

2 Feats

Weapon/armor proficiency

+ 5 Natural Armor

let us say, for sake of discussion (I don't have my actual ogre class table in front of me), that I feel that the Ogre's abilities can be spread out over 5 levels. it is worth noting at this juncture, that a critter ALWAYS recieves ALL of the penalties/drawbacks of what it is at level one (it makes no sense to grow weaker as you level) I also include things intrinsice to the critter (size category, darkvision, proficiencies, etc.)

now. we can ignore the feats, as they handle themselves (take 1 at Creation, and one at Level 3, like any other character)

so, at level 1, The ogre has all the intrinsic qualities and drawbacks of its existence.
d8 HD
3/4 bab
good fort save
- 2 dexterity
- 4 intelligence
- 4 charisma
Large Size
Darkvision
Weapon/Armor proficiencies

as for the stat bonuses?
a nice and easy +2 strength per level until they cap out at +10 at level 5
the +2 constitution can be slotted in wherever, for sake of discussion, we'll say it's obtained at level 3 along with a Feat to avoid the critter feeling overly front loaded

the Ogre gains +1 NA per level

the ogre gains skills and hit points by its creature type, as well as Saves/BAB progression.

Now, looking over this, I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but hey, quick and dirty examples.


typically, if a critter does not readily fit this idea of spreading things out over a combination of their RHD and LA, I disallow it. but as I stated before, I do things on a case by case basis, with an effort largely dictated by the interest of the player.

naturally, some things will simply never fit as player characters, at least not in my experience, and not with this system (angels and dragons spring to mind)

I hope this was, if not helpful, then at least entertaining to read. :smallbiggrin:


a note to any detractors to my system, which I am sure will materialize quickly.

it works at my table, for my players, that's all the justification I need. neener neener :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

Honestly, I vastly prefer Pathfinders way of playing monsters: the RHD are free, its CR is its LA. It makes a bit more sense than arbitrary LAs, since by the encounter rules, a 10 level human fighter and a CR 10 creature are about equally powerful, but a good chunk of CR10 creatures would have ECL in the mid teens. Quick and easy to work with.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, I vastly prefer Pathfinders way of playing monsters: the RHD are free, its CR is its LA. It makes a bit more sense than arbitrary LAs, since by the encounter rules, a 10 level human fighter and a CR 10 creature are about equally powerful, but a good chunk of CR10 creatures would have ECL in the mid teens. Quick and easy to work with.
This can have some nasty repercussions in a system where monsters aren't designed for it - many creatures have absurd amounts of HD for their CR, leading to access to feats and other prerequisite-based abilities that are not appropriate for the level they're playing at.

[Ruethgar]

It should be noted that if you are doing a Savage Progression rather than a Savage Species Monster Class, you can lop off one RHD by taking a normal PC class level after you attain it. This is questionably legal, but if you are taking all the levels anyway one more class level is not going to offset the detriment from the other two RHD.