Charismatic Leader Archetype Build for 3.5

[DurionArcanis]

So, I'm looking to build a character for a friend at his request and I have a few ideas but what I'm needing is decent suggestions for build. I only need levels 1-10, and all official WotC material is allowed including Dragon Mag/Compendium and the like.

The idea was to base the character off of something from a show or anime or something, and I have a few ideas and am doing some brainstorming. I'm not sure if I want to go typical and go Paladin, but I can't go too exotic either (again his request).

So I guess what I'm asking is what classes out there would have a decent balance of abilities and benefit from having a high Charisma? I've glanced at the X stat to Y bonus thread, and I'm looking through various classes with spellcasting and other interesting abilities trying to find which ping off Cha. I don't want to go too typical, but I can't go too exotic either.

Also, if you have any media suggestions to look into for something that might have an interesting character to base this off of I'd be interested in those as well.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Well, I'm not the guy to ask about anime.

I don't notice anything about being a leader in the text, just in your title, so - is it important that he/she/it have class abilities that help/inspire party members? Or are you looking for any class that utilizes high charisma?

If the former, than Crusader from Tome of Battle is an obvious alternative to a Paladin. I'm not familiar with Marshal but I expect it would also work.

[DurionArcanis]

Well I suppose having abilities to help the party would be useful as well, though really I'm shooting for anything that would benefit from decent Charisma and could fill a "party leader" or "hero" type role rather easily. He flat out told me he was leaning towards a charismatic leader type, hence the name.

I'm mostly looking for classes that would benefit from good Charisma right now, hence not including much about being a leader in my original post. That's more of a personality trait anyways. Technically even a straight up Fighter can be a "charismatic leader" but I'm looking for classes that would benefit from a strong Cha.

EDIT: Some ideas I've had so far is to base him off of Alistair from Dragon Age a bit. But going Paladin still isn't something I think I want to do. Leaning towards building for Suel Arcanamach and setting that up nicely with a good amount of Cha to Y Bonus classes in the first 6 levels.

[WeaselGuy]

Depending on the power level you want, I would suggest anything from Knight to Marshal to Bard to Crusader. In particular, a Bard/Crusader with Song of the White Raven is particularly effective.

As far as I can remember, getting into Suel Arcanamach can be a bit of a pain, requiring BAB 6, ranks in Concentration, Jump, Spellcraft and Tumble, and needing Combat Casting and Iron Will, plus proficiency with 4 martial or exotic weapons. A Ranger gets 3/4 of those skills as class skills, and can put cross-class points into Tumble rather easily, but there are much better things to do with a Ranger than go into Arcanamach.

Bard has the skills for Arcanamach, but the BAB progression would slow him down, delaying entry until level 9, and again, better things to do with Bard...

So yeah. If he's dead set on Suel Arcanamach, I don't really know what to tell you. It has funky requirements that can be hard to get from an RP perspective, if you want to get into it by 7, and still have a functional character at the end of the day.

If you want a charismatic leader type of character, I would recommend Bard, Crusader, or a combination of both (really, do the Bardsader, you'll thank me, the party will thank him, everyone will be happy. Especially if he goes the Dragonfire Inspiration route.)

[DurionArcanis]

He has given me nothing to go on, and wanted an idea from outside of his head. I'm the one that thought of the Suel Arcanamach.

I'll definitely take a look into the Bardsader, that sounds like an interesting build, and it might be better off for the 1-10 level range anyways since the earliest to get into the SA is 7 so if the campaign ends around lv10 then he won't see much use of the SA's abilities.

Any racial suggestions for the Bardsader?

Hrm... and what do you think of the various variant bards? Divine and Lightbringer Bards look like they might be interesting.

[Arbane]

Will your GM allow Pathfinder stuff? If so, Dreamscarred Press' Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) might be perfect.

[DurionArcanis]

Will your GM allow Pathfinder stuff? If so, Dreamscarred Press' Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) might be perfect.

I don't think so, and I'm not going to be in this game. Not sure why I was asked to create the character but it seems like he wants to play a fresh idea or something.



EDIT:
Considering the following builds so far.

Bard5/Crusader5
Battle Dancer4/Paladin2/Suel Arcanamach4
Duskblade6/Suel Arcanamach4

Dragonhusk variant optional
Use the Skilled City Dweller variant to swap Ride for Tumble if needed for the Suel Arcanamach builds.
Silverbrow Human or Illumian for the Suel Arcanamach builds.

EDIT2:
Battle Dancer and Bard anyone? Hmm...

[Vhaidara]

Well, you mentioned an anime basis, I've built Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann in 3.5

Battle Dancer 1/Marshal 1/Paladin of Freedom 3/Bardsader X

Battle Dancer gets you unarmed combat and Cha to AC
Marshal lets you pick up an aura to get Cha to something else (like initiative, for example)
Paladin of Freedom is the CG paladin variant from Unearthed Arcana, 3 levels nets you Cha to saves and a 1/day smite evil
Then you go for a mix of Bard and Crusader to taste. More Bard if your focus is on supporting your allies, more Crusader if you want to be a combat machine.

[(Un)Inspired]

Well, you mentioned an anime basis, I've built Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann in 3.5

Battle Dancer 1/Marshal 1/Paladin of Freedom 3/Bardsader X

Battle Dancer gets you unarmed combat and Cha to AC
Marshal lets you pick up an aura to get Cha to something else (like initiative, for example)
Paladin of Freedom is the CG paladin variant from Unearthed Arcana, 3 levels nets you Cha to saves and a 1/day smite evil
Then you go for a mix of Bard and Crusader to taste. More Bard if your focus is on supporting your allies, more Crusader if you want to be a combat machine.

That's a pretty great Kamina build. I would take more bard levels than crusader but that just how I see him.



As many have pointed out, bard is a pretty perfect fit for a charismatic leader type.

I'd like to suggest a factotum with a decent cha. You can rock at being the party's face (isn't that what leaders generally do?) and factotum are always the go-to class for building characters from TV shows. Maybe take a level of marshal for the dex aura.

[Vhaidara]

That's a pretty great Kamina build. I would take more bard levels than crusader but that just how I see him.

Like I said, the bardsader is to taste. That taste can even include straight bard (like my original) or straight crusader (much less accurate). Some people focus more on the combat ability that really game from Gurren Lagann, not Kamina.

[Sam K]

Bardsader (with dragonfire inspiration) is great for the heroic leader type you're describing. Going on the front lines? Check! Save companions (through lockdown or strike-based heals)? Check! Buff party? Check!

[(Un)Inspired]

Like I said, the bardsader is to taste. That taste can even include straight bard (like my original) or straight crusader (much less accurate). Some people focus more on the combat ability that really game from Gurren Lagann, not Kamina.

I can dig it. In my head I never imagine Kamina as actually being any good at fighting on his own but I guess the show doesn't really support that.

[Vhaidara]

I can dig it. In my head I never imagine Kamina as actually being any good at fighting on his own but I guess the show doesn't really support that.

I put him at competent but not amazing. He held his own against Viral, after all, who was considered to be (I believe) one of the best hand-to-hand fighters in the show.

[Xerlith]

Here's a bardsader (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1042904) I built for myself for a game starting at 5th level.
Gets +4 Inspire Courage and/or +4d6 Fire Damage from Dragonfire Inspiration.
Craft Wondrous Item can be, of course, neglected. I intended to abuse it with my caster level=character level (Silverbrow human SLA <3) and the party Mystic Ranger and Cleric, but the campaign didn't take off in the end. :smallfrown:
Yeah, I had obscene ability rolls.
Feel free to steal from it.
Also, notice the +19 to Diplomacy. :smalltongue:



EDIT:
Considering the following builds so far.

Bard5/Crusader5
Battle Dancer4/Paladin2/Suel Arcanamach4
Duskblade6/Suel Arcanamach4


I'm sorry to put this that way, but bard5/crusader5 is an awful idea. Bard5 gives you nothing, while you lose a point of BAB as well as your Initiator Level is set to uneven (bard levels: 2.5, Crusader: 5, sum: 7.5 Crusader IL). I consider Bard4 to be the sweet spot, since you could break off a level ago, but with Bard4/Crusader1 you start with 2nd level maneuvers and 2nd level Bard spells, giving you whatever you want (my favourites: ALter Self, Whirling Blade, Blur... Choice is yours).

For a final build for 10th level, I'd rather see a Bard4/Crusader6, sporting 4th level maneuvers anyway, still having the 2nd level spells... Or just go Bard4/Crusader2/Jade Phoenix Mage4 if spellcasting is of importance to you. Jade Phoenix Mage doesn't progress White Raven and through this doesn't grant the Inspire Courage increase ,which is crucial.

Duskblade6/Suel4 is okay, but most probably your best bet would be breaking off after 3rd Duskblade level and dipping something like Warblade or Crusader or Spirit Lion Barbarian etc. Also, not really the team leader.

I quite like a Mystic Fire Knight6/Suel Arcanamach4 build, which, while not the greatest it can be, gives some nice stuff (Greater Dispel, full Paladin caster level, spellcraft as class skill etc). You could spring for an A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376), now that I think about it. It's a great, inspiration and teamwork focused build.

There is probably a way to roll with an Inspire Courage Paladin/Crusader with Song of the White Raven and be really cool about it (Pal4/Crus16 with a seasoning of divine feats?).

For Battle Dancer, I wouldn't take more than a level (For the AC boost). Battle Dancer1/Paladin4 grants Turn Undead, which in turn (heh) opens Divine feats. Travel Devotion being a particularily good one.

EDIT: Oooh, there's the Knight class. take a look at it. A Knight4/Crusader1/Knight+2/Crusader+3 ends up with what, 4th level maneuvers at 10th, a great presence on the battlefield, overall tankiness and badassness. And other things ending in -ess.

Such as ladiess, if you really pimp out your Charisma checks.

[(Un)Inspired]

I put him at competent but not amazing. He held his own against Viral, after all, who was considered to be (I believe) one of the best hand-to-hand fighters in the show.

Yeah, I was thinking about that as I wrote my post.

[DurionArcanis]

Yeah, I'm gettin tired lol. Kinda got sidetracked trying to figure out what the frick was making my computer lag horribly... Friggen Window's Media Player... Anyways, I hadn't put much (if any) thought into the Bardsader at first, since I hadn't gone looking at the classes in-depth and totally forgot about initiator level there for a moment. I just put 5/5 as a placeholder lol.

I'm crashing hard though, so I'll have to reserve re-reading this thread for when I wake up or something. In the meantime, thankyou for all the suggestions, I will definitely take them into account.

One thing I do want to mention is that the character is supposed to be theme heavy, regardless of the build, that was clarified to me later. I'll definitely consider a Kamina build (I gotta watch that sometime anyways... might as well now lol). Ideas don't have to be limited to anime/shows though I suppose, games, movies, comics, and etc are also welcome, as long as I can build a theme-heavy charismatic character around it.

Aand I think I'll take a nap now...

[DurionArcanis]

Bleh, doobalpostan, but this thread ground to a halt.

I'm considering making the character based off of Alistair from Dragon Age. That gives me some room to provide options and I'm quite familiar with the character...

Most likely I'll build the character with the idea of the in-game Templar/Champion specializations and as a sword and board type of character. So this would be a Tank-lite with a side of Anti-Mage and Buff/Debuff. For the sake of completion I'll also build it to include the other two specializations as options as well (those being Reaver and Berserker). For this build (and the different options it might have) I'll be building three paths. Each one will have a combination of two Specializations, and Templar is a required one. The Templar direction is the main course here, the second one is the side. If you're familiar with Dragon Age Origins feel free to suggest options that would fit the lore as well (such as Grey Warden abilities, or tie-ins to plot/setting).

Templar - Anti-Magic and Tank skills. Resist magic, hurt mages, that kinda ****. Primary reason for thinking Suel Arcanamach.

Plus one of the following:


Berserker - This one's easy, rage and power. Barbarian is almost certainly the route to go here. Other suggestions welcome.
Champion - Gloriously charge into battle, intimidate enemies and rally allies. Frontliner buff/debuff. This is generally the path I take for Alistair when I play as it suits him best. I was thinking Marshal or something along those lines. Warblade might work well for this as well. Other suggestions welcome.
Reaver - While not inherently evil, a Reaver draws his power from evil sources. Demons and Blood Magic, dark secrets and foul energies. Reaver abilities include fear effects, healing from slain enemies, and a blood frenzy that makes them stronger as they get closer to their own death. Using their tainted powers they flirt with destruction and damnation in every battle. I have a few ideas for this one but I'd like to hear suggestions for where to take it.


Alistair character wise is a naive boy of a man raised in the church and trained to be a Templar (protector, mage hunter, all around pious dude). He tends to rather follow than lead, but he has much potential as a leader. Throughout the story there are paths you can take both with the main plot and with his own subplot that could make him more faithful in his beliefs, a stronger leader, and a wiser man... Or you can tear the wool off his eyes, break his faith, and plunge him into despair and anguish. The way I see it, the three optional specializations kind of show the type of man he can become.


Templar/Champion - Obviously the best choice for a strong leader. Noble, gallant, and wise he protects his allies and his faith and leads with grace.
Templar/Berserker - Twisted with rage, betrayed, abandoned. Angry at the world, and at himself, he throws himself into battle recklessly, either hoping to die or simply not caring if he does.
Templar/Reaver - Still trying to stay true to his beliefs, but has seen the dark of the world and realizes that no man is pure. Balances faith and corruption, he will do anything to protect those few he calls friend.

[Xerlith]

Ooooh! I got this one!

Templar/Champion, I mean.

Okay, so what do the Templars get in DA?
- Improved magic resistance. Great, paladin2 gives me charisma to saves.
- shining armor and a bit of a stick-in-the-mud personality. Great, paladin1 gives me that.
- DISPELLZ0RZ - Great, Mystic Fire Knight paladin 6 gives me that and some more.

IN fact, a Mystic Fire Knight Paladin 6 grants you all the needed resources to cover both the bases.
What comes next? Well. Either more paladin (a bit meh, but not that bad if you know what you're doing) or Suel Arcanamach. The problem with Suel, though, is that the builds with that class really shine from 12th level onwards, when you actually mix it up with Abjurant Champion.
If the game's not going to reach that high, I'd rather grab Sword of the Arcane Order and pimp my Paladin slots. You need only a 12 in Int for all purposes anyway.

In fact, depending on the SotAO wording, you may qualify for Abjurant Champion with your paladin spellcasting. A different thing altogether is if thats' actually beneficial.

And to actually show a build:

Silverbrow Human (Magic-blooded template) [Str>Con>Cha>Dex>Int>Wis]. It works ONLY if it's NOT FR and you can, I don't know, revere some kind of a deity of Magic and Music or... Don't know... Ideal of Music and Magic. Ahh, just make him worship Ilúvatar or something. Anyway:

1. Paladin 1 (Harmonious Knight sub lvl) (Feat: Dynamic Priest) (Human: Dragonfire Inspiration)
2. Paladin 2
3. Paladin 3 (Feat: Power Attack)
4. Paladin 4 (Mystic Fire Knight sub lvl)
5. Paladin 5 (Mystic Fire Knight sub lvl) (Divine Spirit ACF)
6. Paladin 6 (Mystic Fire Knight sub lvl) (Feat: Initiate of Milil)
7. Paladin 7
8. Paladin 8
9. Paladin 9 (Feat: Battle Blessing)
10. Paladin 10

Check if the DM rules that Harmonious Knight's Inspire Courage counts as Bardic Music. If not, the Power Attack becomes From Smite to Song.

What the build gives?

A +2 Inspire Courage (Base), with normal Badge of Valor and Masterwork Horn shenanigans (custom item of Inspirational Boost appreciated) for the total of +4 or +5. That's a lot. And you can DFI it.
In the Smite To Song variant, use my Playback (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18404751&postcount=1) trick to grant yourself never-ending bardic music.
If you don't want DFI, be a Lesser Aasimar instead of Silverbrow Human.

Less Known Sources used:
Dragonlance: War of the Twins (Dynamic Priest)
Champions of Valor web enhancement (Substitution Levels)

DISCLAIMER: Any similarities to A-Game Paladin are purely coincidental and in no way tied to the fact I had it open in one of my browser tabs.

[DMVerdandi]

EDIT. ^^^NINJA'D ON THE DYNAMIC PRIEST IDEA WHILE I WAS TYPING.
Prefer my build though...


Bleh, doobalpostan, but this thread ground to a halt.

I'm considering making the character based off of Alistair from Dragon Age. That gives me some room to provide options and I'm quite familiar with the character...

Most likely I'll build the character with the idea of the in-game Templar/Champion specializations and as a sword and board type of character. So this would be a Tank-lite with a side of Anti-Mage and Buff/Debuff. For the sake of completion I'll also build it to include the other two specializations as options as well (those being Reaver and Berserker). For this build (and the different options it might have) I'll be building three paths. Each one will have a combination of two Specializations, and Templar is a required one. The Templar direction is the main course here, the second one is the side. If you're familiar with Dragon Age Origins feel free to suggest options that would fit the lore as well (such as Grey Warden abilities, or tie-ins to plot/setting).

Templar - Anti-Magic and Tank skills. Resist magic, hurt mages, that kinda ****. Primary reason for thinking Suel Arcanamach.

Plus one of the following:


Berserker - This one's easy, rage and power. Barbarian is almost certainly the route to go here. Other suggestions welcome.
Champion - Gloriously charge into battle, intimidate enemies and rally allies. Frontliner buff/debuff. This is generally the path I take for Alistair when I play as it suits him best. I was thinking Marshal or something along those lines. Warblade might work well for this as well. Other suggestions welcome.
Reaver - While not inherently evil, a Reaver draws his power from evil sources. Demons and Blood Magic, dark secrets and foul energies. Reaver abilities include fear effects, healing from slain enemies, and a blood frenzy that makes them stronger as they get closer to their own death. Using their tainted powers they flirt with destruction and damnation in every battle. I have a few ideas for this one but I'd like to hear suggestions for where to take it.


Alistair character wise is a naive boy of a man raised in the church and trained to be a Templar (protector, mage hunter, all around pious dude). He tends to rather follow than lead, but he has much potential as a leader. Throughout the story there are paths you can take both with the main plot and with his own subplot that could make him more faithful in his beliefs, a stronger leader, and a wiser man... Or you can tear the wool off his eyes, break his faith, and plunge him into despair and anguish. The way I see it, the three optional specializations kind of show the type of man he can become.


Templar/Champion - Obviously the best choice for a strong leader. Noble, gallant, and wise he protects his allies and his faith and leads with grace.
Templar/Berserker - Twisted with rage, betrayed, abandoned. Angry at the world, and at himself, he throws himself into battle recklessly, either hoping to die or simply not caring if he does.
Templar/Reaver - Still trying to stay true to his beliefs, but has seen the dark of the world and realizes that no man is pure. Balances faith and corruption, he will do anything to protect those few he calls friend.


This quote + this pic I got off of the wiki told me EVERYTHING I needed to know.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141224181902/dragonage/images/b/b9/TSG_inside_cover.jpg





Neutral Evil
Cleric 4/Crusader1/Ruby knight vindicator 10/Divine Disciple 5
Domains: Spell/Magic

The wiki has quite the interesting take on Alistair. He isn't all...Light. He's a nice guy but he's got some taint on him. Plays around with the occult and arcane magics, and not lightly either. Like, he is enthusiastic about it. Still likable, and funny, but not really leaning any way. He is a grey warden, but lets paint him

Now, wait, didn't you say you wanted charisma??? Not wisdom. What the heck? Well here is how we are going to do it. The Dynamic Priest feat. It changes divine casting to charisma. And now you can really synergize with your turn undead bonus as well.


My suggestions... Take Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF for magic. It definitely has the more anti-magic feel, and since you can transform any prepared spell to one of those, your defenses are always up.

And so far we need one feat to start,which I mentioned above is dynamic priest.
Now, some other things you could do is buff your turn undead stuff.
Take maybe two flaws, for two bonus feats.

At level 1:
Take extra turning, Practiced spell caster (cleric), dynamic priest and extend spell.
at level 3, take persistent spell
at level 6 take divine metamagic:persistent spell. Now things get fun.
At level 9 take extra turning.
At level 12 take extra turning
At level 15 take extra turning
At level 18 take extra turning.
That is 20+3+Charisma Turning per day,
Persist is six turns each. So you will at LEAST have 4 buffs running at all times. If you can get +7charisma modifier(EASY) you can have 5 spells. Which is MORE than enough. Any more and you would be entering broken territory.


By the end you should be rocking buffs all day. It's beautiful.

Get slippers of battle dancing for Charisma to Attack and Damage after moving at least 10 feet.
Get a few eternal wands of Heroics, so you can have extra fighter feats.
Get a metamagic wand grip.
Get a spell-storing weapon
Get a Tome of Leadership and Influence (5)
Get all the permanent Ioun stones (all of the ones 8000 and under) (sans charisma)
Get a cloak of charisma

Now, you said that the Templar was almost anti-casting. Obviously it isn't at the Anti-magic field kind of level, which is good. As for spells to think about, Protection against spells are pretty good. I was talking about a spell storing weapon? Yeah, putting Dispel Magic into that baby is where it's at. Go in for a strike, get rid of whatever buffs they got going on, fantastic.




Alright, so that is the build.
Now onto the role-play. You can still play a nice guy, a leader, and someone who grows, while still playing neutral evil. Maybe the evil doesn't have to do with personality, but actions. Maybe this fellow is compelled to be extraordinarily cold and callous to his enemies on the battlefield, but when amongst friends and strangers is a delight.

Maybe if its within reason, torturing people to get information is fine, lying stealing, and other backhanded things are okay as long as the people that your character and the ones that he or she loves are safe.
Neutral evil could be your jack bower, or whomever. Where results are what are most important, not personal preference or abstract moral code.

And that little tinge of going overboard and giving in to baser animal emotions (fear,lust,rage,jealousy,etc.) just make it a fantastic byronic hero.

[DurionArcanis]

Ooooh! I got this one!

Templar/Champion, I mean.

Okay, so what do the Templars get in DA?
- Improved magic resistance. Great, paladin2 gives me charisma to saves.
- shining armor and a bit of a stick-in-the-mud personality. Great, paladin1 gives me that.
- DISPELLZ0RZ - Great, Mystic Fire Knight paladin 6 gives me that and some more.

IN fact, a Mystic Fire Knight Paladin 6 grants you all the needed resources to cover both the bases.
What comes next? Well. Either more paladin (a bit meh, but not that bad if you know what you're doing) or Suel Arcanamach. The problem with Suel, though, is that the builds with that class really shine from 12th level onwards, when you actually mix it up with Abjurant Champion.
If the game's not going to reach that high, I'd rather grab Sword of the Arcane Order and pimp my Paladin slots. You need only a 12 in Int for all purposes anyway.

In fact, depending on the SotAO wording, you may qualify for Abjurant Champion with your paladin spellcasting. A different thing altogether is if thats' actually beneficial.

And to actually show a build:

Silverbrow Human (Magic-blooded template) [Str>Con>Cha>Dex>Int>Wis]. It works ONLY if it's NOT FR and you can, I don't know, revere some kind of a deity of Magic and Music or... Don't know... Ideal of Music and Magic. Ahh, just make him worship Ilúvatar or something. Anyway:

1. Paladin 1 (Harmonious Knight sub lvl) (Feat: Dynamic Priest) (Human: Dragonfire Inspiration)
2. Paladin 2
3. Paladin 3 (Feat: Power Attack)
4. Paladin 4 (Mystic Fire Knight sub lvl)
5. Paladin 5 (Mystic Fire Knight sub lvl) (Divine Spirit ACF)
6. Paladin 6 (Mystic Fire Knight sub lvl) (Feat: Initiate of Milil)
7. Paladin 7
8. Paladin 8
9. Paladin 9 (Feat: Battle Blessing)
10. Paladin 10

Check if the DM rules that Harmonious Knight's Inspire Courage counts as Bardic Music. If not, the Power Attack becomes From Smite to Song.

What the build gives?

A +2 Inspire Courage (Base), with normal Badge of Valor and Masterwork Horn shenanigans (custom item of Inspirational Boost appreciated) for the total of +4 or +5. That's a lot. And you can DFI it.
In the Smite To Song variant, use my Playback (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18404751&postcount=1) trick to grant yourself never-ending bardic music.
If you don't want DFI, be a Lesser Aasimar instead of Silverbrow Human.

Less Known Sources used:
Dragonlance: War of the Twins (Dynamic Priest)
Champions of Valor web enhancement (Substitution Levels)

DISCLAIMER: Any similarities to A-Game Paladin are purely coincidental and in no way tied to the fact I had it open in one of my browser tabs.


Probably going with this build though I may make some tweaks as I write it up. He's playing with a 25pt buy btw. Why isn't Dex a dump stat for this though? And why is Wis the dump stat? You still need Wis for casting don't you?

Also, I'd have to take the Smite to Song route because anything that needs a GM ruling on it is pretty much no-go.

[Xerlith]

Probably going with this build though I may make some tweaks as I write it up. He's playing with a 25pt buy btw. Why isn't Dex a dump stat for this though? And why is Wis the dump stat? You still need Wis for casting don't you?

Also, I'd have to take the Smite to Song route because anything that needs a GM ruling on it is pretty much no-go.

Why isn't dex? Well, I don't really know. I like to have that Mithral Fullplate and get an additional point or two from Dex. Call it personal preference - easily changed, though. you need that Int a bit more, now that I look back at what I wrote.
And you don't need Wisdom at all, because Dynamic Priest makes Charisma your casting stat for all purposes.

If the DM rulings are RAW-As-Hell, take a flaw (shaky? -2 to ranged attacks is small enough. Unearthed Arcana, btw.) and grab Smite To Song at 1st level. Only if that's not possible, get Power Attack swapped for Smite To Song.

[DurionArcanis]

Why isn't dex? Well, I don't really know. I like to have that Mithral Fullplate and get an additional point or two from Dex. Call it personal preference - easily changed, though. you need that Int a bit more, now that I look back at what I wrote.
And you don't need Wisdom at all, because Dynamic Priest makes Charisma your casting stat for all purposes.

If the DM rulings are RAW-As-Hell, take a flaw (shaky? -2 to ranged attacks is small enough. Unearthed Arcana, btw.) and grab Smite To Song at 1st level. Only if that's not possible, get Power Attack swapped for Smite To Song.

Flaw sounds like a plan. IDK the DM's style but as far as I've been told he's somewhat used to 3.5 as a player but hasn't ever DM'd it so he's playtesting and such. Reason I've been told to avoid DM rulings is because I'm not playing this character, someone else is, and IDK the DM either. I'm basically supposed to keep to RAW to avoid complicating matters I guess.

Took me a bit to find that Dynamic Priest feat, none of my usual resources had anything on it and you listed the wrong book title :P But I did find it.

Player said he'd figure out the deity but, and as far as he told me there is some flexibility when it comes to fluff requirements like belonging to an organization and specific patron deities, however he asked me to include a build with and a build without so that's what I'm going to do I suppose.

I was told the game might go beyond lv10, however he doubts it so he's only asking me to build him up to that point.

When I finish the build I'll post what I come up with on here then, and I'll eventually ask the player to voice his input on this in play, whether he posts it himself or I post his words in here.

[Xerlith]

Fun fact: Initiate of Milil, RAW, qualifies you for Song of the Heart, so that may be a good choice of the 12th level feat.

Actually, if the game's going over the 10th level, going Paladin8/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator may prove a better option.

In such a case, Song of the Heart is the 9th level feat, with Battle blessing taken at 12th. Or the other way round.

[DurionArcanis]

Well I'll go with assuming it won't since the impression I got is it's very unlikely to go past lv10 (but not completely impossible).