Succubus' Racial HD question.

[Yael]

I was checking into the Savage Species because a friend of mine wants to play an Efreeti, so I want to see what it actually does for a CR 4 creature (8th level, 4 HDs), and while skimming, I came across the Succubus, which gives 2 HD of Outsider and some stuff that is actually pretty good with the stats and else.

Is it worth taking? WOULD YOU take them? I'm not seeing this at the heavy optimization point, where 2 HDs mean a Wizard gets 9s at 19th, or a Sorcerer at 20. But if those abilities she gets are really worth 2 HDs, and the score adjustments, too. Bard, maybe? (Or summoning the Nymphology 3rd party, or the so feared BoEF?)

[Red Fel]

I was checking into the Savage Species because a friend of mine wants to play an Efreeti, so I want to see what it actually does for a CR 4 creature (8th level, 4 HDs), and while skimming, I came across the Succubus, which gives 2 HD of Outsider and some stuff that is actually pretty good with the stats and else.

Is it worth taking? WOULD YOU take them? I'm not seeing this at the heavy optimization point, where 2 HDs mean a Wizard gets 9s at 19th, or a Sorcerer at 20. But if those abilities she gets are really worth 2 HDs, and the score adjustments, too. Bard, maybe? (Or summoning the Nymphology 3rd party, or the so feared BoEF?)

Savage Species is 3.0. In 3.5, the Succubus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) has 6 RHD and a +6 LA, and is CR 7. In short, you'd be looking at an overall +12 adjustment. That's a bit more substantial than the 2 HD you found. So, are you using 3.0 or 3.5?

Here's the thing: RHD are generally worse than class levels. Some RHD are decent - for example, Outsider RHD get you full BAB and good saves, plus 8+Int skill points. But generally speaking, that doesn't compare with receiving actual class features for those levels.

[Yael]

Savage Species is 3.0. In 3.5, the Succubus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) has 6 RHD and a +6 LA, and is CR 7. In short, you'd be looking at an overall +12 adjustment. That's a bit more substantial than the 2 HD you found. So, are you using 3.0 or 3.5?

Here's the thing: RHD are generally worse than class levels. Some RHD are decent - for example, Outsider RHD get you full BAB and good saves, plus 8+Int skill points. But generally speaking, that doesn't compare with receiving actual class features for those levels.

I messed that up, I meant to talk about the first two Succubus Monster Class RHDs, not as a whole, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

[sideswipe]

i have allowed in a mid op game for a succubus to only have the +6 LA and have the 6RHD be class levels and it has worked fine.

losing 12 levels for what you get is BAD. losing 6 is still pretty bad. but manageable as long as you are not going caster.

[Forrestfire]

I messed that up, I meant to talk about the first two Succubus Monster Class RHDs, not as a whole, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

If you take any levels in a monster class, you must finish it in its entirety before multiclassing. Although if the DM houseruled it to not be like that I would at the very least consider dipping two levels. I mean, look at what it gives:


+2 Dex, +2 Int, +6 Cha
Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons
Telepathy 100ft
Alternate Form to one humanoid form
Claws
+2 BAB
All good saves
8+int mod skill points


Overall, it's much better than many dips. In a gish build that was looking for two levels to dip into a full BAB class, it'd be a shoo-in. It'd be painful to multiclass at all as a sorcerer, but it'd be neat to try. Probably something like Succubus 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8. Doesn't get 9ths, but makes for a pretty fun gish build overall. Alternatively, something like Succubus 2/Cloistered Cleric n/cleric PrCs, using all that extra Cha to get access to DMM Persist without having to get items or Extra Turning, then just picking whatever is cool to have as your other domains and feats.

[RedMage125]

Savage Species is 3.0. In 3.5, the Succubus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus) has 6 RHD and a +6 LA, and is CR 7. In short, you'd be looking at an overall +12 adjustment. That's a bit more substantial than the 2 HD you found. So, are you using 3.0 or 3.5?


Eh...Savage Species is more lie the only 3.25 book. The revision was right around the corner when the book came out, and it mentions it in the intro. A great deal of the monster classes are 3.5 compatible with no change required, some only require small changes (succubus' DR, for example). Only a handful are completely borked in 3.5e (the Rakshasa comes to mind).

The Succubus in Savage Species does have an ECL of 12 with 6 RHD, so that much is correct.

Also, does ANYONE still play 3.0? I know some people that didn't do the 3.5e transition back when it was new, but most have by now. The sheer amount of supplement support alone makes it worth the change. And the only people really hurt by it are the Ranger1/Paladin1/FighterX/Prestige Class X characters out there who were just level-dipping for the sweet abilities those classes got right at level 1.

[dantiesilva]

I know there is a succubus homebrew class floating around on the playground. Gave you a +1 to cha each level and some really amazing abilities that followed the monster for the most part. Kiss of lust was great when my character used it. Also progressed spell casting I believe.

[Crake]

Eh...Savage Species is more lie the only 3.25 book. The revision was right around the corner when the book came out, and it mentions it in the intro. A great deal of the monster classes are 3.5 compatible with no change required, some only require small changes (succubus' DR, for example). Only a handful are completely borked in 3.5e (the Rakshasa comes to mind).

The Succubus in Savage Species does have an ECL of 12 with 6 RHD, so that much is correct.

Also, does ANYONE still play 3.0? I know some people that didn't do the 3.5e transition back when it was new, but most have by now. The sheer amount of supplement support alone makes it worth the change. And the only people really hurt by it are the Ranger1/Paladin1/FighterX/Prestige Class X characters out there who were just level-dipping for the sweet abilities those classes got right at level 1.

Actually, quite a bit changed about the succubus from 3.0 to 3.5, including what kinds of demons they could summon (balor 10% vs vrock 30%) their SLAs (they used to have darkness, doom, desecrate, unholy blight), their DR, even their claw damage.