The Fine Print of Belkar's Mark of Justice

[mockingbyrd7]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html

According to Roy, "...[Belkar] can't deal lethal damage to any living creature within the bounds of any city, town or village..."

So, I have a question. When it says "within the bounds of any city, town or village", does it mean literally within the walls or within the TERRITORY? Basically, could he jump out on the ladder and do some awesome, badass hobgoblin slaying (from safely outside the city's walls) without activating his mark? What is considered the "bounds" of the city?

Thanks,
mockingbyrd7

[BobTheDog]

I have seen the future...

:belkar: This sucks! All these hobgoblins begging for some stabbing and I have to put up with this stupid Mark of Justice!

:haley: Ehh... Belkar... Technically, we're not inside the city.

:belkar: What?!

:haley: Yes, we're on the city walls, which are the border that separates inside the city from outside the city. We're on the border.

*Belkar stabs a Hobgoblin. Nothing weird happens.*

:belkar: Damnit! Couldn't somebody have told me I was allowed to stab the crap out of these guys earlier?

[Setra]

That could end badly.

He might go teamkilling.

He's already a camper.

Edit: Woah I've been playing too much Counter-Strike.

[Baalzebub]

Well, it says "within the bounds of any city, town or village..." Not exactly the whole state or territory.

[Threeshades]

Well, it says "within the bounds of any city, town or village..." Not exactly the whole state or territory.

i thinkt the stress belongs to "within". its as i already said some times somewhere else. he could just drop from the wall and do a double-dagger-dive into the first hobgoblin making the mistake to underestimate a halfling falling from a huge blue wall.

[Imgran]

But do the "bounds" include such things as forests, outlying farms, and other areas within the domain of the city, but not within the walls? That seems to me to be the question.

[Aon]

Could we instead decide whether zombies cocnt as living?
Because if they do not, there's plenty of those about...

[Threeshades]

Could we instead decide whether zombies cocnt as living?
Because if they do not, there's plenty of those about...

Undead = Non-living

If you happened to read the comic before the last, you would have noticed belkar taking a Ghast apart without being stopped by the Mark.

The problems with zombies are:
1. They dont feel pain or scream for mercy
2. They're not much of an enemy
3. They're still surrounded by Hobgoblins who might want to attack Belkar.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I'm pretty sure it is whatever the legally defined boarders of the city/town/village are. The city wall is within the boarders (they define the boarder) but he could probably kill indiscriminately on the other side.

[Imgran]

THe city walls don't often define the actual borders of a city. Particularly not a city-state like AC.

Walls don't go up to the town line and not beyond, and the town line doesn't stop at the wall. Farms, fields, mines, forests, rivers, even small mountains, all can lie within a city's territory and yet not be sheltered by the walls despite the fact that they're within a city's domain, pertain to it, and subject to territorial border disputes between city-states, or even two cities in the same empire if the lines were improperly drawn.

So the question is legitimate, whether a city's boundaries are INDEED the walls, or whether the feudal outlands if you will, those outside-the-wall-but-part-of-the-city sections of territory, count under the MoJ.

[TRM]

Is there anything stopping Belkar from pushing the goblins off of the wall?
Technically he wouldn't be doing them lethal damage (he'd just be pushing them)

[Doompuppy]

Is there anything stopping Belkar from pushing the goblins off of the wall?
Technically he wouldn't be doing them lethal damage (he'd just be pushing them)

I'd say that still falls comfortably within dealing damage, and even semantics discounts the fact that pushing someone off a wall (or other tall feature) is directly causing them to fall such a distance as to receive damage.

Same reason he can't throw daggers at people (he's just dropping daggers at high speed, it's not his fault said dagger kills someone).

I mean, for semantics, stabbing someone isn't directly causing them damage. It's all the DAGGER's fault.

And that orphanage attacked him first, darnit (although that's drifting into another comic).

[Jayabalard]

I'd say that still falls comfortably within dealing damage, and even semantics discounts the fact that pushing someone off a wall (or other tall feature) is directly causing them to fall such a distance as to receive damage.

Same reason he can't throw daggers at people (he's just dropping daggers at high speed, it's not his fault said dagger kills someone).

I mean, for semantics, stabbing someone isn't directly causing them damage. It's all the DAGGER's fault.

And that orphanage attacked him first, darnit (although that's drifting into another comic).but "lethal damage" is a game term... it's a metagame joke. Pushing a ladder is not dealing lethal damage; seems like a good plan to me.

[factotum]

but "lethal damage" is a game term... it's a metagame joke. Pushing a ladder is not dealing lethal damage; seems like a good plan to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anything that causes damage (as opposed to specifically non-lethal attacks) counts as lethal damage in D&D, and I think the hobgoblins who get killed when they fall off the ladder would definitely be considered as having taken "lethal damage"...

[Indon]

Well, if he were sufficiently high-level (I suspect he is), he could even try to start throwing hobgoblins off the wall.

His grapple would deal nonlethal damage, his high BAB would compensate for his puny size, and the hobgoblins would take lethal damage outside of the city.

Edit: Factotum; but someone on the ladder on the wall of the city isn't in the city yet.

[fangthane]

Factotum - you're missing the semantic argument; there's a difference between causing lethal damage (as with a weapon attack, thrown or otherwise) and causing someone to suffer lethal damage (as by pushing their ladder and beatifically watching the fall). If Belkar makes a live hobgoblin fall, he's caused no damage himself, even though he's caused the hobgoblin to suffer damage when it hits the wall's base. The fall is the direct cause of the lethal damage (and 1d6 of subdual), not Belkar.

[Jayabalard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anything that causes damage (as opposed to specifically non-lethal attacks) counts as lethal damage in D&D, and I think the hobgoblins who get killed when they fall off the ladder would definitely be considered as having taken "lethal damage"...certainly they take lethal damage and he caused it.... but the terms of the MOJ is "deal lethal damage", and if it's a metagame reference (and I think it is) that isn't the same thing as all.

[Imgran]

Again with the assimption that the boundary of the city is the wall.



Since villages were specifically mentioned and the deliniation of the difference btween a city and a village is usually imagined as a wall protecting the most inhabited parts of the land, one might assume that this applies to municipalities which HAVE NO WALL.

Walls are refuges, not territorial lines. Anything claimed as territory by the town might well be within the town's "boundaries," which was the word used in the terms of the MoJ. That includes unwalled outskirts.

So no, stepping off the wall unless the Giant says otherwise doesn't free you from the restrictions of a MoJ. You have to be out of the inhabited parts of the world in order to be an unrestricted agent under the rules of that spell.

[Mordaedil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anything that causes damage (as opposed to specifically non-lethal attacks) counts as lethal damage in D&D, and I think the hobgoblins who get killed when they fall off the ladder would definitely be considered as having taken "lethal damage"...

By that logic, he would have triggered it here too: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html

As he doesn't force the hobgoblins to actually take damage from their fall, much like he doesn't force the kobold in that strip to take damage from adventurers.

[the_tick_rules]

belkar will find a way, have faith.

[Imgran]

Umm... hello?

All of this is kind of pointless if the wall isn't the "bounds."

Which it.... you know.... isn't.

[mockingbyrd7]

Okay, I'm going to toss my own 2 cents in:

I think, personally, that the boundary of the city is the wall, BUT that the boundary of the territory of the city is however far it stretches past the wall. But technically, if Belkar swings out on a rope and kicks down the ladder and kills dozens of hobbos from just outside the walls, he's fine.

Speaking of which, why doesn't somebody kick down the ladder? I mean, come on, it's a ladder peeking over the ramparts, why doesn't somebody hack the thing apart??

[Kreistor]

Well, Belkar played the Duck, Duck, Duck, Goose game in #433 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html). You'll ntoice the ducks are hobgoblins and the goose is a ghoul. (And I do mean ghoul, not zombie, as per #300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html), where it Redcloak mentions the ghoul hordes. (Ghouls can make more ghouls, which makes it easier to produce undead than casting spells that require gems.)

I think it would be pretty fair to assume the Giant doesn't need to waste a panel on Belkar finding out where the borders of towns lie. Since he is assuming the wall is part of the town, we probably should expect that he's been told that the wall is inside the border.

[holywhippet]

I'd think the bounds of a city would cover more than just the walls. In theory the immediate area around the city would be under the cities protection.

[Tevildo]

I think nobody remembered that whips, saps, and bolas deal nonlethal damage without the usual -4 penalty to attack. A whip, while provoking attacks of opportunity, has a nice reach and is suitably sadistic for li'l Belkar. They should have hooked him up :(

[Imgran]

I'd think the bounds of a city would cover more than just the walls. In theory the immediate area around the city would be under the cities protection.

THANK you. No one wanted to pay any attention when I tried to say that!

[jindra34]

THANK you. No one wanted to pay any attention when I tried to say that!

because we are not talking about what makes up the territoty of a city but what makes up the city itself... you know the urban environment.

[mvp129]

I have to quote Roy here: "See the blue rune on his forehead? It's called the 'Mark of Justice', and it'll be there UNTIL HIS TRIAL."

Belkar has been tried and sentenced if I recall. Strip #420 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html)

Shouldn't that mean he is free and clear to kill stuff during the battle?

[Imgran]

because we are not talking about what makes up the territoty of a city but what makes up the city itself... you know the urban environment.

No, you were talking about "The Fine Print of Belkar's Mark of Justice."

Which uses the words "bounds of a city, town or village." Not "Urban Environment."

Fact is there's no way that just outside the wall isn't insite the bounds of a city. EVERY city owns at least some outlying land. Unless the spell takes into account that a city is under siege (and thus anything outside the wall is no man's land) there's no argument here -- the MoJ definitely applies wall or no wall.

[Imgran]

I have to quote Roy here: "See the blue rune on his forehead? It's called the 'Mark of Justice', and it'll be there UNTIL HIS TRIAL."

Belkar has been tried and sentenced if I recall. Strip #420 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html)

Shouldn't that mean he is free and clear to kill stuff during the battle?

I think that that statement presumed that someone would take it off after the trial. Otherwise good argument.

[Felius]

I think nobody remembered that whips, saps, and bolas deal nonlethal damage without the usual -4 penalty to attack. A whip, while provoking attacks of opportunity, has a nice reach and is suitably sadistic for li'l Belkar. They should have hooked him up :(

But aren't they exotic weapons?

[mvp129]

It just don't seem right is all. Belkar being on a leash and everything. It ain't natural is all I'm driving at...:frown:

It's 'nuff to make a man wonder if there is any decency left in this world.

[mvp129]

Oh wait I have to correct myself. Hinjo explains that he is keeping the MoJ on for the battle right after sentencing Belkar to 6 years.

[Black_Light83]

Yes :thog:

[mockingbyrd7]

Sorry all, I just have to do this...

*clears throat*


TOLD YOU SO!!!!

I TOLD YOU that the walls were the boundaries! :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

[Baalzebub]

all right, the comic has responded your question.