CR for DM-controlled PCs

[Easy_Lee]

So I attacked three L:2 PCs with a L:3 blade pact warlock I built, 1v3 after I gave them a long rest, and nearly annihilated them. I had to get cocky and pick up the idiot ball so they would win, and also had to fudge a death roll to keep one player from dying permanently (wouldn't be cool to kill him so soon, he likes his character).

That has me wondering, how do I calculate the CR for DM-controlled PCs? In other words, what is a player's CR? Sorry if this is posted in the DMG and I just didn't see it.

[Eslin]

So I attacked three L:2 PCs with a L:3 blade pact warlock I built, 1v3 after I gave them a long rest, and nearly annihilated them. I had to get cocky and pick up the idiot ball so they would win, and also had to fudge a death roll to keep one player from dying permanently (wouldn't be cool to kill him so soon, he likes his character).

That has me wondering, how do I calculate the CR for DM-controlled PCs? In other words, what is a player's CR? Sorry if this is posted in the DMG and I just didn't see it.

I didn't see anything about it in the DMG, but the easy answer would be the CR is equal to the character's level. Fits the guidelines on proficiency bonuses.

[Easy_Lee]

I didn't see anything about it in the DMG, but the easy answer would be the CR is equal to the character's level. Fits the guidelines on proficiency bonuses.

I thought the same thing at first. Prof fits, yes, but it seems like it's more complicated. The highest CR on moon druids is 6, and a single player doesn't seem like much of a challenge for 3-4 equal players.

I wonder level*some (<1) multiplier would work.

[Envyus]

I didn't see anything about it in the DMG, but the easy answer would be the CR is equal to the character's level. Fits the guidelines on proficiency bonuses.

It's in the creating monsters section which you would not know about due to giving your book back.

You use the same chart as with other monsters to determine their CR. You just use CR to determine Proficiency.

So you would check the Warlock's AC, attack bonus, HP, Save DC if important, and damage.

AC and HP determine the Defensive CR while. Attack bonus and or Save DC along with damage determine Offensive CR. Then you move the 2 Cr's closer together on the chart until you get to the middle ground between them for the Proper CR.

[Easy_Lee]

It's in the creating monsters section which you would not know about due to giving your book back.

You use the same chart as with other monsters to determine their CR. You just use CR to determine Proficiency.

So you would check the Warlock's AC, attack bonus, HP, Save DC if important, and damage.

AC and HP determine the Defensive CR while. Attack bonus and or Save DC along with damage determine Offensive CR. Then you move the 2 Cr's closer together on the chart until you get to the middle ground between them for the Proper CR.

So two players at the same level can have very different CRs? That's interesting.

[Gnomes2169]

So two players at the same level can have very different CRs? That's interesting.

Yep, no more of 3.5's "Fighter 20 totally equals Wizard 20" CR guides. Now you can actually have help determining it via math! Spellcasting is still a bit of a wild card when it comes to non-direct damage or explicitly defensive spells (so things like polymorph and hold/ charm person are left to a judgement call as far as determining their influence on CR), but it's still a lot more accurate than 3.xpjqlmnofgd.

[Shining Wrath]

The tables are essential because a 3rd level bladelock who has managed to score +1 weapon and +1 armor is a lot more dangerous than one not so equipped.

And what invocations a warlock has on matter; beguiling influence isn't going to help with PC combat.

Etc., etc.

[Xetheral]

So, by the book, would proficiency bonus be determined by number of levels in a PC class, or by CR?

It seems mind-boggling that, to use the previous posters example, proficency bonus might be determined by a warlock's equipment and inovocation selection.

[Envyus]

So, by the book, would proficiency bonus be determined by number of levels in a PC class, or by CR?

It seems mind-boggling that, to use the previous posters example, proficency bonus might be determined by a warlock's equipment and inovocation selection.

CR. In this warlocks case it's going to be +2 as he is not going to be CR 5 were monsters get a +3.

[Pinnacle]

So two players at the same level can have very different CRs? That's interesting.

It actually makes sense that they would.

Some PCs have per-day or per-rest abilities that they have to spread over multiple encounters, but for an NPC who's a challenge in a single encounter those all turn into per-encounter abilities.
Which isn't entirely reflected in the table..


It is a bit confusing to me that CR determines proficiency bonus, proficiency bonus determines attack bonus and save DCs, and attack bonus and save DCs determine CR.

[Envyus]

It actually makes sense that they would.

Some PCs have per-day or per-rest abilities that they have to spread over multiple encounters, but for an NPC who's a challenge in a single encounter those all turn into per-encounter abilities.
Which isn't entirely reflected in the table..


It is a bit confusing to me that CR determines proficiency bonus, proficiency bonus determines attack bonus and save DCs, and attack bonus and save DCs determine CR.

It's stated you are supposed to assign a proto CR to the creature you make to determining it's Proficiency for the first making it. Once you make it check if it actually fits it's old CR and if it does keep it the same or edit the CR or Stats to get it into the proper range.

It also points out that if a monster has diffing damage from round to round due to stuff like recharges or once per day stuff. You figure out the most average damage it can do in 3 rounds then decide it by 3 to get it's DPR.

[jkat718]

Another thing you might want to consider is that you aren't supposed to throw anything at a party whose CR is above their level. I obviously don't know what your bladelock's CR was, but even if it wasn't high enough to reach the Deadly encounter threshold, if it was anything CR 3 or above, it was probably too hard. Of course, that rule is mostly because of the late number of immunities that monsters get at higher CRs, bit the rule still stands.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

It is a bit confusing to me that CR determines proficiency bonus, proficiency bonus determines attack bonus and save DCs, and attack bonus and save DCs determine CR.

Yeah, personally I just don't use it in that way. I make a character, then use the table as rough estimate on how difficult it is and how much XP I should hand out for defeating it. Done.