Tarrasque, good foe for tier 3?

[j_spencer93]

Ok why is this thing supposedly so great? Honestly its abilities are lackluster and only really seems to be a threat to melee characters. However my players have mentioned wanting to fight it several times and i estimate their strengths to be high tier 2 or low tier 3. Their builds are usually wild and all over the place but hold up pretty well in game. Would a tarrasque be a good encounter right before the final BBEG?

Second note, how powerful is a kaiju (DM 289) tarrasque?

[Xelbiuj]

They're tough if you don't metagame and optimize like it's a freaking video game. :P

[j_spencer93]

So they may be biting off more then they can chew lol. The tarrasque seems really bland to me, i like a few of its abilities but it doesn't have many options. Maybe tweek its feat list when i make it to give it the ability to throw rocks or something.

No one ever made a Kaiju Tarrasaque???
EDIT: I missed where a Kaiju could only be tiny or huge, nvm

[Sam K]

Big T is scary if you rely on hp damage. If you have moved past that, not so much. Flight makes it irrelevant.

[j_spencer93]

The flight part is what i noticed. It can not even hit you if you fly above it...seems a little boring for such a terrible creature.
Maybe removing the 6 toughness feats and replacing them with better ones would make it more interesting.

[Red Fel]

As others have mentioned, certain strategies (e.g. direct HP damage) are worse than useless, and others (e.g. flight) are virtually automatic successes. In that sense, it's less about Tier, or even optimization, and more about skill and toolbox availability. Or, put differently, there have been builds that can allow almost anybody to beat the Tarrasque, under the right circumstances. If you're a smart Bard, you may be able to pull it off. If you're a stupid Druid, you have no chance.

So instead of asking about their builds, look at the skill of the players themselves. Are they clever? Do they use their resources well? Are they bad enough dudes to save the President?

[Chronos]

Maybe removing the 6 toughness feats and replacing them with better ones would make it more interesting.
Yes, indeed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?87000-Re-feat-the-tarrasque-3-x).

[Psyren]

However my players have mentioned wanting to fight it several times and i estimate their strengths to be high tier 2 or low tier 3.

Uh, did you mix up the numbers here? Because there is a pretty vast gulf between these two.

[Sam K]

I think that big T works best as a force of nature rather than something you fight, because of how easily it is bypassed. Big T is marching towards the great temple of something-really-holy-but-completely-unable-to-divert-it, and the monks need you to divert it somehow. Or the king wants it to stop rampaging through the countryside. Or maybe it's mad and the party has to find out why.

Fighting it can be anti-climatic because of how it is designed. Ubercharger may oneshoot it, stat damage will destroy it, slugging it out (probably how the designers imagined it would be fought) is fun given a very specifict definition of fun. Maybe as a final test for a high level, low OP party who rely on HP damage.

[FocusWolf413]

People keep talking about Martial Study/Stance for the tarrasque, but honestly, that is a preposterous idea. It has no formal combat training. It is barely sentient. It would have no feasible way of learning ANY of those stances or maneuvers. That isn't creating a good monster. It's just plain old poor DMing and roleplaying.

[atemu1234]

People keep talking about Martial Study/Stance for the tarrasque, but honestly, that is a preposterous idea. It has no formal combat training. It is barely sentient. It would have no feasible way of learning ANY of those stances or maneuvers. That isn't creating a good monster. It's just plain old poor DMing and roleplaying.

Doesn't it have Int 6?

[Tvtyrant]

Doesn't it have Int 6?

It does, and an immortal lifetime is more than enough for someone to just invent fighting.

Honestly I think they best way to deal with it is to have a lot of giant buzzards flying around it. Manticores, wing-template hydras, etc. They eat the scraps it leaves behind when it kills, and if you go airborne they attack you.

[Sam K]

People keep talking about Martial Study/Stance for the tarrasque, but honestly, that is a preposterous idea. It has no formal combat training. It is barely sentient. It would have no feasible way of learning ANY of those stances or maneuvers. That isn't creating a good monster. It's just plain old poor DMing and roleplaying.

I too object to the unspecified way the imaginary, timeless, supposedly unkillable monster in the imaginary world of magic and elves and dragons aquired its martial training. Clearly that doesn't make SENSE!

[Psyren]

I too object to the unspecified way the imaginary, timeless, supposedly unkillable monster in the imaginary world of magic and elves and dragons aquired its martial training. Clearly that doesn't make SENSE!

Here's the thing though - you can make this make sense without retreating into audacity or "it's magic!" to explain it either. Just because Big T has an ability that functions exactly like some martial technique, does not mean it has to have the same name or fluff.

So for instance if you give Big T Iron Heart Surge, it does not have to be that it learned "Iron Heart Surge" by eating a passing hobgoblin warblade one day or getting a martial script stuck in its teeth, or simply "being magic." Rather, it's so tough that it learned how to shake off certain debilitating effects even after they took hold - on Big T, you could call this technique "Primal Tenacity" or "Bestial Hardiness" instead. And instead of "Adaptive Style" to cycle any maneuvers it gets, it gets the identical abilities "Second Wind" or "Primal Recovery." And I would definitely give it a stance like Hearing The Air, which would simply be "Primal Senses" or something.

There are limits though. It is not subtle - at all - so I personally wouldn't give it anything from Shadow Hand. Similarly, it is amoral, so I wouldn't give it anything from Devoted Spirit.

As for Incarnum, it's an immortal beast of legend with 35 Con. I see no reason it couldn't tap into soul power on an instinctive level and shape a few rudimentary soulmelds. (After all, Totemists certainly have no problems tapping into it.) Have its SR or reflective carapace apply to attempts to suppress those constructs and you're golden.

Note: these may be actual feats somewhere else, I didn't bother to check.

[j_spencer93]

lol no martial trained tarrasque. i understand the difference between high tier 2 and low tier 3. also i understand that one player of mine is really really good with his resources, him alone pulling the party through numerous encounters were my other 2 simply complain about being unable to be effect. I do not treat that one player any better he simply makes builds that are useful....for example, a red wizard of thay, while another used a rogue that traded all his sneak attack dice for those feats that debilitate targets. wonder why he felt useless.
More recently he is a maztecian warrior and is already falling behind the party but seems to enjoy his build. The third player usual makes a good build but as soon as another player messes with him his play style falls apart.
So i have one really good player. One that thinks his builds are original (in truth useless). And another that needs to focus on what he can do a little better.
From this post i am thinking maybe they should't fight the tarrasque until they get a little better.

[LTwerewolf]

Just throw some ranks into jump and giggle like an idiot when they fly only 60 feet above him and he volleyball spikes them into the dirt.

[Flickerdart]

Its high amount of HD make it an excellent candidate for Incarnum feats, particularly the soulmelds that let it fly and shoot acid.

[Psyren]

Just throw some ranks into jump and giggle like an idiot when they fly only 60 feet above him and he volleyball spikes them into the dirt.

More likely he will just trigger their Contingent Dimension Door by getting too close, or any immediate-action protections they have.

[j_spencer93]

that would not happen psyren. my players do not optimize that much. lol that image of the tarrasque volleyball spiking the wizard into the earth is priceless. pretty sure that wizard just died too.

[Emperor Tippy]

There are limits though. It is not subtle - at all - so I personally wouldn't give it anything from Shadow Hand. Similarly, it is amoral, so I wouldn't give it anything from Devoted Spirit.

As for Incarnum, it's an immortal beast of legend with 35 Con. I see no reason it couldn't tap into soul power on an instinctive level and shape a few rudimentary soulmelds. (After all, Totemists certainly have no problems tapping into it.) Have its SR or reflective carapace apply to attempts to suppress those constructs and you're golden.

Note: these may be actual feats somewhere else, I didn't bother to check.

Why not? NinjaT is hilarious and makes your players go WTF.

One of the most fun, memorable, and interesting baddies I ever faced as a player was a Wizard ImprovedTM Tarrasque. Its Intelligence was boosted by 11 points (to 17) and it was given one maneuver per HD along with refreshing one expended maneuver per round as a free action.

Intelligent, cunning, Big T using Balance on the Sky, Shadow Blink, One with Shadow, and Cloak of Deception (along with all of the other maneuvers) was so very nasty to fight.

Especially when it had all of those choice feats like Permanent Emanation: Selective Anti-magic field.

Big T that can run on air, walk up walls, turn invisible, teleport as a swift action, and suddenly turn incorporeal is just so very nasty.

Mister Wizard mass producing those damn things was even more of a pain to deal with. And the ones he gave Divine Ranks to were a royal pain (Big T with Divine Earth Mastery and the intelligence to use that ability to full effect is really no fun at all to fight, especially not underground).

[j_spencer93]

ya. that would leave my players light years behind in terms of playability honestly. they struggle against encounters 2-5 cr's above them.

[JusticeZero]

It's a puzzle monster. It soaks up a hideous amount of abuse and can't be kept down without a lot of preparation.

[j_spencer93]

I might throw it in, idk. The miracle thing worries me since i removes all fullcasters from the game, i think that actually makes it impossible.

[A_S]

I might throw it in, idk. The miracle thing worries me since i removes all fullcasters from the game, i think that actually makes it impossible.
What are your high tier 2 players playing if you removed all full casters from the game? Or are you not including psionics in casting?

*edit* As for your original question, if you're not willing to re-feat or otherwise fix the big T to shore up its weaknesses (mostly its complete impotence against anything that flies or is incorporeal), then no, I think it's a bad opponent for basically any party, regardless of tier. It will either stomp all over them (if they're dumb enough to go toe-to-toe with it), they will stomp all over it (if they have the tools to beat it and use them intelligently), or neither side will be able to do anything (if they have ways of avoiding it but no way to get through its defenses). The one thing that will definitely not happen is a challenging and exciting battle that the players will actually enjoy.

[Psyren]

Why not? NinjaT is hilarious and makes your players go WTF.

Besides the fact that it makes my inner Vorthos shrivel up like a Nazi witnessing the Ark opening, Shadow Hand has always been my least favorite ToB school due to Ex teleportation, which I deeply feel should not be a thing.

[Andezzar]

I might throw it in, idk. The miracle thing worries me since i removes all fullcasters from the game, i think that actually makes it impossible.As long as someone has access to Allips and flight the vanilla Tarrasque is no problem at all. It will not kill the Tarrasque but it will remain helpless until some fool casts restoration on it.

[Auron3991]

Have it throw rocks, tremors by stomping the ground, or use bull rushes to send people into walls. Rush combined with a charge allows it to close from all but the furthest spell ranges. There are plenty of ways for it to be far more dangerous than it's straight abilities would imply. You just have to remember that it's smarter than even tool using animals (monkeys are Int 2 while the Tarrasque clocks in at Int 3). Just because it can't use complex strategies does not mean that it can't be creative.

[TheCrowing1432]

I too object to the unspecified way the imaginary, timeless, supposedly unkillable monster in the imaginary world of magic and elves and dragons aquired its martial training. Clearly that doesn't make SENSE!

i laughed really hard

[Sam K]

i laughed really hard

Mission accomplished!

[Flickerdart]

Besides the fact that it makes my inner Vorthos shrivel up like a Nazi witnessing the Ark opening, Shadow Hand has always been my least favorite ToB school due to Ex teleportation, which I deeply feel should not be a thing.
Ex teleportation is just warp travel, though.

[j_spencer93]

What are your high tier 2 players playing if you removed all full casters from the game? Or are you not including psionics in casting?

*edit* As for your original question, if you're not willing to re-feat or otherwise fix the big T to shore up its weaknesses (mostly its complete impotence against anything that flies or is incorporeal), then no, I think it's a bad opponent for basically any party, regardless of tier. It will either stomp all over them (if they're dumb enough to go toe-to-toe with it), they will stomp all over it (if they have the tools to beat it and use them intelligently), or neither side will be able to do anything (if they have ways of avoiding it but no way to get through its defenses). The one thing that will definitely not happen is a challenging and exciting battle that the players will actually enjoy.

Oh crap i just realized i was typing tier 2 this entire time. it was supposed to be low tier 3 high tier 4. oops. maybe that will clear up alot.

[Andezzar]

I hope you mean star trek warp travel. I'm pretty sure that using the Immaterium for (sometimes) faster than light travel is SU. Unfortunately D&D teleportation is a lot closer to Warhammer40K's warp travel.

[Psyren]

Ex teleportation is just warp travel, though.

Which depends on technology (i.e. powered by magic anyway in most published D&D settings), not merely "moving really fast."

And before you mention those Ravenloft "non-magic magic items" thing, I consider them to be an abomination too.

[RoboEmperor]

This is how a Tarrasque fight breaks down to:
1. You got a cheese strat? You win, fight was a joke
OR
2. You don't have a cheese strat? You lose, fight was a joke. You never stood a chance.

The proper way to use a Tarrasque is as an attacker, not a defender. So he engages the party rather than vice versa.
For example, if the Tarrasque attacks the kingdom's capital castle, doesn't matter if you can teleport away or overland flight indefinitely, you gotta kill him in time before he wrecks the nation and renders it permanently vulnerable to invasion.

[Flickerdart]

2. You don't have a cheese strat? You lose, fight was a joke. You never stood a chance.
It's not exactly difficult for a high-level party to beat down the Tarrasque with simple brute force. It has a lot of HP, but is otherwise a pretty feeble combatant.

[j_spencer93]

that is kind of how i was going to use the Tarrasque, just going to push it off until i see how my player's build's work out.

[LTwerewolf]

Use more than one and have them use ambush tactics. Forget hide, they're disguising themselves as mountains.

[Psyren]

Use more than one and have them use ambush tactics. Forget hide, they're disguising themselves as mountains.

There is only the one, unless you live in a very interesting setting.

[LTwerewolf]

There is only the one, unless you live in a very interesting setting.

A wizard did it. Also they'll only have so many contingent spells if the dm is moderately aware. If they let the wizards stomp all over everything forever, then the entire discussion is rather moot, as you can insert any monster in place of T and get the same result.

[j_spencer93]

i don't care how powerful you are, in my campaign you can die. in some of the nastiest ways possible. plus i have seen alot of this OP builds and most only work with a really shaky interpretation or alot of DM fiat allowing it.

[LTwerewolf]

i don't care how powerful you are, in my campaign you can die. in some of the nastiest ways possible. plus i have seen alot of this OP builds and most only work with a really shaky interpretation or alot of DM fiat allowing it.

Most of the standard builds that break things around here consist of some variation of wizard 20. It requires DM fiat for the spells NOT to work.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok give it Awesome Blow, so now it can backhand people all over the place (this is mostly for fun) now give it some levels in Hulking Hurler, now it throws things Godzilla style. Hell slap a template on him that gives him a breath weapon, hes totally not Godzilla.

Also i second the Incarnum feats, those are very nice and also let that beast fly.

[(Un)Inspired]

i don't care how powerful you are, in my campaign you can die. in some of the nastiest ways possible. plus i have seen alot of this OP builds and most only work with a really shaky interpretation or alot of DM fiat allowing it.

Really? What about spells like gate or shapechange that can devastate just about any encounter with even the most conservative of interpretations?

Unlimited wishes are pretty easy to achieve without any DM fiat. You really would care about how powerful a PC was if they had unlimited wishes.

[j_spencer93]

fluffwise, its a rp game, their are ramifications for what you try to do. on a more crunch wise level, its D&D anything you can do the DM can copy and make better.

[LTwerewolf]

fluffwise, its a rp game, their are ramifications for what you try to do. on a more crunch wise level, its D&D anything you can do the DM can copy and make better.

Rocket tag between dm and player is fun for no one (except tippy).

[j_spencer93]

lol then don't try to break my game. simple as that. i am a very very lenient DM, but if a saw a player aiming to break the game, you better believe id bring the wrath of AO down on him.
All seriousness though, as a player the DM is always able to defeat you. It is actually in the Dungeon Masters guide lol.

[Flickerdart]

There is only the one, unless you live in a very interesting setting.
There's a Spelljammer crystal sphere that's entirely Tarrasques.

[j_spencer93]

now that is a little scary

[(Un)Inspired]

i don't care how powerful you are, in my campaign you can die. in some of the nastiest ways possible. plus i have seen alot of this OP builds and most only work with a really shaky interpretation or alot of DM fiat allowing it.


fluffwise, its a rp game, their are ramifications for what you try to do. on a more crunch wise level, its D&D anything you can do the DM can copy and make better.


lol then don't try to break my game. simple as that.

Neither of you latter to comments address my concerns with the tail end of your earlier comment. Do you really think that "OP" builds only work with shaky interpretations of the rules? Can you explain how gate only works with shaky interpretations of the rules?

You say "don't try to break my game. It's as simple as that" what if someone breaks you game without trying? Say you plan a fight with a Tarrasque as a mighty, memorable encounter and a player brings to the table a character who can fly.

Would it be his fault that he's breaking your game?

[j_spencer93]

Ah ok i think i misunderstood something or did read everything.
IF a player accidentally did something that made an encounter or scenario pathetic then whatever, adjust the campaign and continue.
If a player is trying to make a wizard who can break anything you throw at him, oops mystra frowns upon you so you lose your magic (just an example, obviously not appropriate all the time).
As for gate, i thankfully do not have players that like to abuse their power. They were who asked me to remove wish and miracle from the game only for PCs (odd choice since NPCs are left with it but as a good DM i would never throw that at them). Gate i could see being abusable exactly as written.
I didn't mean to imply all OP builds are build on a shaky foundation but most i have seen seem to be. However a few are really clever ways of using the system, now there is a different between using and abusing the system.

[Jeff the Green]

Personally, I'm fond of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?218055-The-Tarrasque-3-5-Fix-ToB-PEACH) fix. It makes it a more interesting fight and removes many of the ways to nullify it completely.

[Kraken]

It might be possible to devise a class agnostic way to KO the tarrasque reliably by being a dragonborn. Choose the heart aspect for a breath weapon, then pick a method of flight, and just work on cranking up the breath weapon damage.

[Solaris]

Why not? NinjaT is hilarious and makes your players go WTF.

One of the most fun, memorable, and interesting baddies I ever faced as a player was a Wizard ImprovedTM Tarrasque. Its Intelligence was boosted by 11 points (to 17) and it was given one maneuver per HD along with refreshing one expended maneuver per round as a free action.

Intelligent, cunning, Big T using Balance on the Sky, Shadow Blink, One with Shadow, and Cloak of Deception (along with all of the other maneuvers) was so very nasty to fight.

Especially when it had all of those choice feats like Permanent Emanation: Selective Anti-magic field.

Big T that can run on air, walk up walls, turn invisible, teleport as a swift action, and suddenly turn incorporeal is just so very nasty.

Mister Wizard mass producing those damn things was even more of a pain to deal with. And the ones he gave Divine Ranks to were a royal pain (Big T with Divine Earth Mastery and the intelligence to use that ability to full effect is really no fun at all to fight, especially not underground).

... You must give your DMs conniptions and unhinge their minds as they try to keep up with you. Those ideas are insane in all the best ways.

[fluke1993]

Actually even if you don't have access to wish or miracle permanently disposing of Big T isn't impossible, or even that difficult if you are prepared. Big T can still be rendered unconscious and thus can be cou-de-graced. Once you have rendered him unconscious and about 500 HP into the negatives call in about... 20 peasants equipped with scythes to keep the HP regeneration at bay. Next get to cutting: start lopping off limbs, but make sure to dose your weapons with a little thing called trollbane. Bring a lot of this stuff, your gonna need it.

Trollbane is; you guessed it; used to kill trolls dead by preventing their regeneration ability from working for that specific wound. Note that it doesn't inflict permanent damage, or prevent healing or cause bleading, it just prevents regeneration from functioning for that particular wound so regeneration doesn't stop it from working. Because of the trollbane any limbs lopped off won't regrow without outside aid. Once the limbs come off keep lopping off chunks for as long as your troll bane supply lasts. Make sure the peasants keep up the cou-de-gracing during this time too, don't want your Cubed T-Steak regaining consciousness.

Now since every time you lop off a part of T-steak the smaller part stops being a part of him: the goal here is to get a small enough T-steak that you can immerse it in a portable body of water. Before you do this you need to make sure his HP is far enough in the negatives that it wont regain consciousness after 150 (that is -6010HP) rounds. (Yeah 150 rounds is probably way overkill, but without magic to back you up you probably want to be careful here)

Next step is to fill a riverine container large enough to contain your T-Steak with water and immerse. After 70ish rounds pass T-steak will probably start to drown, but I suggest giving it the full 15 minutes just to be safe. Now not even drowning will kill T-steak but after it hits round 3 of drowning it will start taking it's health+10 in damage every round. Basically what this means is that for as long as T is in the cask (the cask of Aman-T-ado?) it's going to take 20 times longer for T regain conciousness. Take the cask and store it someplace hard to get too.

[LTwerewolf]

... You must give your DMs conniptions and unhinge their minds as they try to keep up with you. Those ideas are insane in all the best ways.

You must be new around here. Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy)

[Calimehter]

There's a Spelljammer crystal sphere that's entirely Tarrasques.

For some reason, when thinking about a whole setting of Tarrasques the first thing that popped into my head was "Those have got to be the best improvised-weapon bar fights in the whole galaxy!"

[Frostthehero]

People mentioned stat damage destroying big T, but this does not work. The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, energy drain, poison, and disease. Really the ONLY way to kill it is through HP damage (or sending it to another plane, but its worst save is +20). For those of you who doubt me, go look at the SRD. Also, 30% of rays, lines, and cones get reflected. Nice.

Seriously, find a way to beat this thing without an stat damage or energy drain. It's really not easy.

[Jeff the Green]

People mentioned stat damage destroying big T, but this does not work. The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, energy drain, poison, and disease. Really the ONLY way to kill it is through HP damage (or sending it to another plane, but its worst save is +20). For those of you who doubt me, go look at the SRD. Also, 30% of rays, lines, and cones get reflected. Nice.

Seriously, find a way to beat this thing without an stat damage or energy drain. It's really not easy.
Ability drain, not ability damage or energy drain. It's not immune to it, and thus an allip trivially defeats it.

[(Un)Inspired]

People mentioned stat damage destroying big T, but this does not work. The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, energy drain, poison, and disease. Really the ONLY way to kill it is through HP damage (or sending it to another plane, but its worst save is +20). For those of you who doubt me, go look at the SRD. Also, 30% of rays, lines, and cones get reflected. Nice.

Seriously, find a way to beat this thing without an stat damage or energy drain. It's really not easy.

The ONLY way? What about drowning?

[Frostthehero]

Ability drain, not ability damage or energy drain. It's not immune to it, and thus an allip trivially defeats it.

Incorrect. Check the SRD. The tarrasque is immune to ability damage, and energy drain.


The ONLY way? What about drowning?

granted.

[Milo v3]

Incorrect. Check the SRD. The tarrasque is immune to ability damage, and energy drain.
His point is that it isn't ability damage or energy drain, so being immune to those is like saying it doesn't work because it's immune to poison.

[Flickerdart]

Incorrect. Check the SRD. The tarrasque is immune to ability damage, and energy drain.



granted.
Ability drain is neither energy drain (which drains levels) nor ability damage (which returns on its own and is easier to heal). It is its own separate malady, which the Tarrasque is vulnerable to.

[Frostthehero]

His point is that it isn't ability damage or energy drain, so being immune to those is like saying it doesn't work because it's immune to poison.

I concede. I am a fool.

[(Un)Inspired]

Does anyone know why the tarrasque's touch AC is 5 and not 0? What am I missing.

[Frostthehero]

Does anyone know why the tarrasque's touch AC is 5 and not 0? What am I missing.

base touch armor class is 10. -8 for size is 2. +3 for dexterity is 5.

[(Un)Inspired]

base touch armor class is 10. -8 for size is 2. +3 for dexterity is 5.

Derp! I don't know why I struggled with that.

[CIDE]

The ONLY way? What about drowning?


I recall a thread full of slaughtered cat girls that through the SCIENCE! derived from said slaughter concluded the Tarrasque would in fact float and may prove problematic to drown. Y'know, short of dropping them deep enough in a body of water that they can't pass all their checks before surfacing. At that point it'd still just be temporary.

[Andezzar]

To win an encounter you do not necessarily have to kill the monster. A drowned tarrasque is just as impotent as a dead one. The drowned one even has the benefit that a new one will not spawn.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Use Trap the Soul on big T.

2) Expend the resulting soul-gem as a spellcasting component.

3) Enjoy bragging rights for permanently and irrevocably (bar time-travel) getting rid of an "unkillable" monster.

[Mr Adventurer]

Personally, I'm fond of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?218055-The-Tarrasque-3-5-Fix-ToB-PEACH) fix. It makes it a more interesting fight and removes many of the ways to nullify it completely.

Love that fix! Thanks!

[Chronos]

Quoth Kraken:

It might be possible to devise a class agnostic way to KO the tarrasque reliably by being a dragonborn. Choose the heart aspect for a breath weapon, then pick a method of flight, and just work on cranking up the breath weapon damage.
And also work on finding a way to make your breath weapon something other than a line or a cone, since T is immune to both of those.


Quoth fluke1993:

Next get to cutting: start lopping off limbs, but make sure to dose your weapons with a little thing called trollbane. Bring a lot of this stuff, your gonna need it.
Trollbane won't work on T, as it's a poison, and he's immune to poison.

Whenever you're looking for a way through the Tarrasque's defenses, make sure you've found a way through all of them, because he does have rather a lot of defenses. There are still a few holes, like ability drain, but you have to look hard to find them.

[fluke1993]

Trollbane won't work on T, as it's a poison, and he's immune to poison.

:smallconfused: It is? Woulda sworn trollbane was an alchemichal substance.

[(Un)Inspired]

I recall a thread full of slaughtered cat girls that through the SCIENCE! derived from said slaughter concluded the Tarrasque would in fact float and may prove problematic to drown. Y'know, short of dropping them deep enough in a body of water that they can't pass all their checks before surfacing. At that point it'd still just be temporary.

You just need to tap Mister T with a few plane shifts until one of them stick and send him to the plane if water.

No surface to get to.

[NineThePuma]

Honestly, I feel that when your solution to the tarrasque is "send it somewhere else" it's working.

Personally, I like the idea of the tarrasque as one of those "evolving" creatures that gets better after you kill it, so you drown it and when it shows up again it's amphibious.




I concede. I am a fool.

You have the grace to admit that you were wrong. That's worth its weight in gold.

[Chronos]

Personally, I like the idea of the tarrasque as one of those "evolving" creatures that gets better after you kill it, so you drown it and when it shows up again it's amphibious.
That just punishes those who beat it the "normal" way, by killing it, but doesn't do anything against those who defeat it without killing, by rendering it permanently catatonic, or Plane Shifting it to the middle of nowhere, or keeping it perpetually damaged.

[NineThePuma]

Eh. If players are gonna Caster at it, it's going to lose unless you do what tippy did.

[Xelbiuj]

Honestly, I feel that when your solution to the tarrasque is "send it somewhere else" it's working.

Personally, I like the idea of the tarrasque as one of those "evolving" creatures that gets better after you kill it, so you drown it and when it shows up again it's amphibious.

That's a sweet idea, the Doomsday of D&D monsters. Shame he isn't written specifically to do that.

[Solaris]

You must be new around here. Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy)

Considering I joined the forum in 2007 and five years before you did... No, I'm not, and I've seen the Tippyverse before. It's fairly well-known, actually, as an example of following D&D to its logical conclusions and a paragon of system mastery. Please do without the condescension next time, especially when it's predicated upon an assumption founded on a misreading of my post.

I was commenting on how his DM evidently reacts to Tippy being in his games. While there's no novelty left to the Tippyverse, there is some existential horror in the notion of running a game for a player like Tippy if he pulls out the stops.

[Flickerdart]

there is some existential horror in the notion of running a game for a player like Tippy if he pulls out the stops.
Meh. Anything a PC can do, the DM can do, but with dragons.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Personally, I like the idea of the tarrasque as one of those "evolving" creatures that gets better after you kill it, so you drown it and when it shows up again it's amphibious.

I had big T do that once. The gods sent him after the party in revenge for a desecration of a major temple. They beat it and did more piss of gods stuff. So the gods raised it, slapped on a relevant template and off he went. Several times actually. Stuff got real when Big T picked up Paragon.

[Flickerdart]

I had big T do that once. The gods sent him after the party in revenge for a desecration of a major temple. They beat it and did more piss of gods stuff. So the gods raised it, slapped on a relevant template and off he went. Several times actually. Stuff got real when Big T picked up Paragon.
Hehe...makes me think of an entire pantheon elbowing each other out of the way to get a go in the Spore Creature Designer, and Loki shouting from the back "give it bigger horns!"

[Solaris]

Hehe...makes me think of an entire pantheon elbowing each other out of the way to get a go in the Spore Creature Designer, and Loki shouting from the back "give it bigger horns!"

Now I have an idea for a campaign with a group of low-level characters that have a recurring nemesis that keeps coming back, mutated to survive however they killed it previously.
Eventually, it grows up to be the tarrasque.

[Jeff the Green]

I recall a thread full of slaughtered cat girls that through the SCIENCE! derived from said slaughter concluded the Tarrasque would in fact float and may prove problematic to drown. Y'know, short of dropping them deep enough in a body of water that they can't pass all their checks before surfacing. At that point it'd still just be temporary.

That's true of most mammals. Cement/adamantine shoes fixes the problem

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The Tarrasque doesn't mutate though. Doomsday however does. And since Doomsday's strength, speed and overall toughness are comparable to that of Superman to begin with...

[CIDE]

You just need to tap Mister T with a few plane shifts until one of them stick and send him to the plane if water.

No surface to get to.

Tru dat.

But he'll float!


That's true of most mammals. Cement/adamantine shoes fixes the problem


Is he a mammal? I thought he was reptilian? Or just handwaved due to magic.

[Jeff the Green]

Is he a mammal? I thought he was reptilian? Or just handwaved due to magic.

I doubt it fits into the Earth taxonomic system, but it almost certainly makes no difference. I'm just not terribly familiar with reptilian anatomy and am not sure whether they have different average lung capacities, so I figured I'd hedge my bets.

[Blackhawk748]

Magic Jar. You are now Big T. This may need to be cast several times.

[Andezzar]

But he'll float!
Float to where, if there is no surface?


I doubt it fits into the Earth taxonomic system, but it almost certainly makes no difference. I'm just not terribly familiar with reptilian anatomy and am not sure whether they have different average lung capacities, so I figured I'd hedge my bets.Magical beasts eat sleep and breathe, the Tarrasque is a magical beast, ergo it breathes. The Tarrasque does not have the aquatic or amphibious subtype, so it does not breathe under water.

[rules lawyering]Now you can make that point moot as the rules do not indicate the frequency of eating sleeping or breathing for any creature. So it may take a long time until the Tarrasque needs to do any of those again[/rules lawyering]

[Blackhawk748]

Magical beasts eat sleep and breathe, the Tarrasque is a magical beast, ergo it breathes. The Tarrasque does not have the aquatic or amphibious subtype, so it does not breathe under water.

Unless its from KoK, that thing is Aquatic, and thus more threatening.

[Andezzar]

Unless its from KoK, that thing is Aquatic, and thus more threatening.What are you talking about? The Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) is not aquatic.

[Blackhawk748]

What are you talking about? The Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) is not aquatic.

Kingdoms of Kalamar, that settings Tarrasque is Aquatic.

[Andezzar]

That may have been what you intended to write, but what you actually wrote was claiming that the Tarrasque was aquatic in any setting except Kingdoms of Kalamar, hence my confusion.

[Blackhawk748]

So i did. Wow that was some bad comma placement.

[ninjamaster1991]

Is there any reason why loading several hundred doses of Aboleth Mucus into a catapult wouldn't work?

[Andezzar]

Why wouldn't a single dose be enough? I forgot it allows a save.
And yes, it would work.

[Jeff the Green]

Magical beasts eat sleep and breathe, the Tarrasque is a magical beast, ergo it breathes. The Tarrasque does not have the aquatic or amphibious subtype, so it does not breathe under water.

[rules lawyering]Now you can make that point moot as the rules do not indicate the frequency of eating sleeping or breathing for any creature. So it may take a long time until the Tarrasque needs to do any of those again[/rules lawyering]

The question is whether it floats and thus could be killed by chucking it in a non-infinite swimming pool, and in that case lung capacity (and my ignorance of that of reptiles) matters.

[Andezzar]

The question is whether it floats and thus could be killed by chucking it in a non-infinite swimming pool, and in that case lung capacity (and my ignorance of that of reptiles) matters.With that STR score the Tarrasque has no problem swimming. So given the unknown lung capacity it can either swim to any existing surface or it cannot depending on GM fiat. With the regeneration and high Fort save only very deep waters will become a problem.

[Jeff the Green]

With that STR score the Tarrasque has no problem swimming. So given the unknown lung capacity it can either swim to any existing surface or it cannot depending on GM fiat. With the regeneration and high Fort save only very deep waters will become a problem.

EXcept that after a certain number of rounds it drowns and goes unconscious. If at that point it sinks we're fine. If it doesn't, we're screwed.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Time-Stop, maximized.

2) Multiple Walls of Stone, entrapping Big T with too much thickness for him to make the break DC.

3) Let him drown in solid stone.

[j_spencer93]

1) Time-Stop, maximized.

2) Multiple Walls of Stone, entrapping Big T with too much thickness for him to make the break DC.

3) Let him drown in solid stone.

how would that increase the DC? wouldn't it just be the same per wall, so even if you put three on each side it still the same DC to break the walls one by one?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Walls of stone merge into adjoining rock surfaces. If you got 5 of them in a row, you don't have 5 walls each 5 inches thick but a single wall 25 inches thick.


2) Walls of stone can be shaped to entrap opponents. Coat Big T with the first wall, then the first with the second, the second with the third and so on and so forth. It's a DC 70 strength check to breat out of a quintuple layer which nobody save Superman or a sufficiently buffed CoDzilla could succeed in.

[j_spencer93]

oh ya, sorry you are right. lol

[j_spencer93]

1) Walls of stone merge into adjoining rock surfaces. If you got 5 of them in a row, you don't have 5 walls each 5 inches thick but a single wall 25 inches thick.


2) Walls of stone can be shaped to entrap opponents. Coat Big T with the first wall, then the first with the second, the second with the third and so on and so forth. It's a DC 70 strength check to breat out of a quintuple layer which nobody save Superman or a sufficiently buffed CoDzilla could succeed in.

actually that one class in the Dragon Magazine with cronos in it could.

[Flickerdart]

It's a DC 70 strength check to breat out of a quintuple layer which nobody save Superman or a sufficiently buffed CoDzilla could succeed in.
Nothing is stopping Big T from simply bashing the stone until he breaks through. Stone only has hardness 8, meaning that every single one of the tarrasque's natural attacks is effective. It is impossible to miss the wall, so he can augment his attacks with Power Attack and will be out of there in no time.

[j_spencer93]

kinda what i was thinking too, it taking a full attack would pretty much remove a large chunk. legendary dreadnought was the class i was thinking of lol

[JustIgnoreMe]

1) Use Trap the Soul on big T.

2) Expend the resulting soul-gem as a spellcasting component.

3) Enjoy bragging rights for permanently and irrevocably (bar time-travel) getting rid of an "unkillable" monster.

Speaking of which, any chance of seeing those Rovagug stats you were using over in the Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?382053-If-it-has-stats-%28Challenge-to-the-playground%29) thread? Having read into Pathfinder's take on Big T and his connections to Rovagug, I think your perspective on "unkillable" monsters is very interesting.