Very light musing on CR 1

[gooddragon1]

1 Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm)
Vs
4 Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm) Barbarians (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm) with Greatswords, Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus) (Greatsword), 26 Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#rage) Strength.
Challenging (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/)... for the wolf.

Just something I was thinking about... (was killing wolves in skyrim).

[hobbitkniver]

Is this a post about how laughably wrong CR is?

[Karl Aegis]

Aren't those Orcs CR 5? They have PC levels in their favored class and better than a Elite stat array.

[P.F.]

Aren't those Orcs CR 5? They have PC levels in their favored class and better than a Elite stat array.

Yes. The monster with the 1/2 CR is a 1st-level warrior with default ability scores, not a barbarian with heroic array.

Also you can't compare CR to CR, you need to use the wolf's ECL which I expect in this case would actually be less than 1. What's more, the CR assumes they are fighting a party of 4 or 5, so what you would end up with is,

Pack of 4 or 5 2-HD wolves vs. gang of 4 1st-level orc warriors: challenging for the wolves.

[master4sword]

Yes. The monster with the 1/2 CR is a 1st-level warrior with default ability scores, not a barbarian with heroic array.

Also you can't compare CR to CR, you need to use the wolf's ECL which I expect in this case would actually be less than 1. What's more, the CR assumes they are fighting a party of 4 or 5, so what you would end up with is,

Pack of 4 or 5 2-HD wolves vs. gang of 4 1st-level orc warriors: challenging for the wolves.

Exactly. You can't compare a single CR 1 foe vs a party of CR 1 characters and expect it to be the same challenge both ways. That'd be like saying a 1st-level Barbarian is in an even fight when he's soloing a group of four 1st-level Barbarians.

[Flickerdart]

1 Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm)
Vs
4 Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm) Barbarians (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm) with Greatswords, Weapon Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFocus) (Greatsword), 26 Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#rage) Strength.
Challenging (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/)... for the wolf.

Just something I was thinking about... (was killing wolves in skyrim).
No.

The CR 1/2 Orc is a Warrior with 17 Strength. Even then, four of them would be CR4 - every doubling of encounter size is +2 CR, and the difference between 1/2 and 1 counts as 1.

Being CR1, the wolf is approximately equal to one and a half basic orcs, or one of your cheesed-out orcs. Certainly not four of them.

[Judge_Worm]

Using that same XP calculator-
60 level 20 Wizards vs 1 Red Great Wyrm, 2 level 20 Monks, 5 level 17 fighters, and 35 level 2 warriors is considered very difficult...
For the Wizards.

[gooddragon1]

Using that same XP calculator-
60 level 20 Wizards vs 1 Red Great Wyrm, 2 level 20 Monks, 5 level 17 fighters, and 35 level 2 warriors is considered very difficult...
For the Wizards.

Well, they've got to determine which spells they like most which will still win the encounter in 1 round without them taking damage while using as few of them as possible. That could be very difficult if they were trying to think about it while they slept.


No.

The CR 1/2 Orc is a Warrior with 17 Strength. Even then, four of them would be CR4 - every doubling of encounter size is +2 CR, and the difference between 1/2 and 1 counts as 1.

Being CR1, the wolf is approximately equal to one and a half basic orcs, or one of your cheesed-out orcs. Certainly not four of them.

Okay, you can have 4 level 1 player characters with those exact stats. The calculator mentions 4 level 1 characters.

"To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#levelAdjustmentandEffectiveCha racterLevel)
0+No racial HD because substituted for class level+1 class level = 1.
4 ECL 1's vs a CR 1 monster is a "Challenging" encounter. I know it's not and that this is like the rationale behind tuckers kobolds. I just thought it was funny.

[eggynack]

My traditional example of CR borkedness is a riding dog, which is CR 1, against a druid with a riding dog companion, where the riding dog has leather barding, which is also CR 1. For even crazier results, you can swap out the first riding dog for a less powerful CR 1 creature, like a wolf. For even crazier results than that, you can optimize the druid, perhaps running the classic dragonborn desert half-orc with substituion levels, giving an extra three HP to the dog and four to the druid.

[Mystral]

My traditional example of CR borkedness is a riding dog, which is CR 1, against a druid with a riding dog companion, where the riding dog has leather barding, which is also CR 1. For even crazier results, you can swap out the first riding dog for a less powerful CR 1 creature, like a wolf. For even crazier results than that, you can optimize the druid, perhaps running the classic dragonborn desert half-orc with substituion levels, giving an extra three HP to the dog and four to the druid.

If the CR for the player and the monster are the same, the player is expected to win the fight. It doesn't mean that they are of equal strength. The fight is just supposed to be so taxing to the players resources that he can only get trough 4 encounters of that kind per day.

[eggynack]

If the CR for the player and the monster are the same, the player is expected to win the fight. It doesn't mean that they are of equal strength. The fight is just supposed to be so taxing to the players resources that he can only get trough 4 encounters of that kind per day.
No, that's the CR if the party and the monster are the same. That'd be more like four druids against the riding dog. A fight between a monster and a single PC, each of the same CR, is supposed to be an equal fight. As really basic evidence, consider the riding dog against something like a first level monk. The two would have roughly comparable stats in most ways.

[Mystral]

You are correct, sorry. But that's not exactly the CR systems fault, but rather the huge power discrepancies of characters of the same level.

If the party has a composition close to the original design goal of D&D 3.5 (Sword and Board Fighter, Skillrogue, blasty Mage and Healcleric), it works quite well in my experience.

[eggynack]

You are correct, sorry. But that's not exactly the CR systems fault, but rather the huge power discrepancies of characters of the same level.

They're the same thing, on some level. The imbalance between normal characters is a big part of what translates into imbalance between monsters, as unique capabilities were undervalued relative to raw statistical strength, and defensive might was undervalued relative to offensive prowess. A classic example along those lines is the tarrasque versus allip fight, with the allip crushing the tarrasque with no recourse, and by extension the ability of low level characters to beat the tarrasque while higher level characters can face difficulty when fighting allips. In the druid's case specifically though, I'm mostly amused by the strictly superior nature of the match up.

[Chronos]

In other words, the druid isn't overpowered if there isn't one in the party.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, you can have 4 level 1 player characters with those exact stats. The calculator mentions 4 level 1 characters.
No, you can't - nonelite array is too low for a PC and gets a reroll, and the orcs don't have enough gear.

[gooddragon1]

No, you can't - nonelite array is too low for a PC and gets a reroll, and the orcs don't have enough gear.

So, you're telling me you couldn't use a 32 point buy to pick up an 18 strength base, add 4 for being an orc, an additional 4 for rage and that Barbarians don't start with enough money to buy a greatsword? Because if that's not what you're telling me, I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm almost certain that 4 players could play exactly those characters if they wanted at level 1 using just the stuff in the 3 core rulebooks.

[Flickerdart]

So, you're telling me you couldn't use a 32 point buy to pick up an 18 strength base, add 4 for being an orc, an additional 4 for rage and that Barbarians don't start with enough money to buy a greatsword? Because if that's not what you're telling me, I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm almost certain that 4 players could play exactly those characters if they wanted at level 1 using just the stuff in the 3 core rulebooks.
Oh, I see - you're talking about the stats you posted like a dozen posts back, and not the ones in the post you quoted. Would have been nice if you were specific from the start.

If you open the DMG, "challenging" encounters are ones you're supposed to have 4 of per day. It's not "by the skin of your teeth" - that's called Difficult or Very Difficult.

[Malimar]

The CR 1/2 Orc is a Warrior with 17 Strength. Even then, four of them would be CR4 - every doubling of encounter size is +2 CR, and the difference between 1/2 and 1 counts as 1.

CRs below 1 work differently:


Some monsters' CRs are fractions. For instance, a single orc (CR 1/2) is not a good challenge even for a 1st-level party. This means that you should either calculate XP as if the orc were CR1, then divide by 2, or treat each pair of orcs encountered as a CR 1 monster.

4 CR1/2 orcs would be CR3, not CR4.

Still not the same as a single CR1 wolf, though. (And to address the OP, 4 CR1ish level 1 orc barbarians = CR4ish = even less the same as a single CR1 wolf.)

[Flickerdart]

CRs below 1 work differently:



4 CR1/2 orcs would be CR3, not CR4.

Still not the same as a single CR1 wolf, though. (And to address the OP, 4 CR1ish level 1 orc barbarians = CR4ish = even less the same as a single CR1 wolf.)
Ah, good catch. Stupid fractional CRs...do they ever explain how CR1/3 and CR1/4 work when you add more monsters? Is it just straight up addition until you get to EL1?

[Malimar]

Ah, good catch. Stupid fractional CRs...do they ever explain how CR1/3 and CR1/4 work when you add more monsters? Is it just straight up addition until you get to EL1?

The pattern appears to be the same for fractional CRs other than 1/2 -- it's only implied in the text, but the accompanying Table 3-1 lists 3 x CR1/3 = CR1, 4 x CR1/4 = CR1, etc.

[Illven]

CRs below 1 work differently:



4 CR1/2 orcs would be CR3, not CR4.

Still not the same as a single CR1 wolf, though. (And to address the OP, 4 CR1ish level 1 orc barbarians = CR4ish = even less the same as a single CR1 wolf.)

Wouldn't 4 Cr 1/2 Orcs be a Cr 2 encounter?

[Malimar]

Wouldn't 4 Cr 1/2 Orcs be a Cr 2 encounter?

Above CR1, the "double the creatures, add +2 to the CR" rule kicks in.

The first two orcs count as a single CR1 encounter.
The second two orcs, on their own, count as a single CR1 encounter.
The two groups, of two orcs each, count as two CR1 encounters, which is to say, a single CR1+2=3 encounter.