DM Ruling

[3SecondCultist]

Hey all!

So I'm playing in a game as a Druid (Moon Circle). The concept behind the character is that he wants to be the 'ultimate hunter', believing strength to be the greatest moral force in the world. He's driven by animal instincts, and is Neutral Evil.

Now, I'm looking at my next level, and it would make sense for me (within the confines of the story) to have taken a level in Monk. Now, my DM is saying that I can do this, but that I don't get the bonuses of Unarmored Defense or Martial Arts while under the influence of Wild Shape. Denying me Martial Arts, I can understand. I can see why the DM doesn't want to give me extra attacks in cave bear form, for the purpose of balance. It also makes a great deal of sense, fluff-wise. What kind of animal can use kung-fu? My issue is more with Unarmored Defense. It explicitly states "while you are wearing no armor and not carrying a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier. Should that not work, even while my character is transformed?

It makes the idea of a Monk dip just straight up not work, despite having established my character as someone who A) grew up in an enclave-monastery and B) has had martial training in order to hone his body and mind to the point where it's very hard to hurt him.

Thoughts?

[Alucard2099]

Hey all!

So I'm playing in a game as a Druid (Moon Circle). The concept behind the character is that he wants to be the 'ultimate hunter', believing strength to be the greatest moral force in the world. He's driven by animal instincts, and is Neutral Evil.

Now, I'm looking at my next level, and it would make sense for me (within the confines of the story) to have taken a level in Monk. Now, my DM is saying that I can do this, but that I don't get the bonuses of Unarmored Defense or Martial Arts while under the influence of Wild Shape. Denying me Martial Arts, I can understand. I can see why the DM doesn't want to give me extra attacks in cave bear form, for the purpose of balance. It also makes a great deal of sense, fluff-wise. What kind of animal can use kung-fu? My issue is more with Unarmored Defense. It explicitly states "while you are wearing no armor and not carrying a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier. Should that not work, even while my character is transformed?

It makes the idea of a Monk dip just straight up not work, despite having established my character as someone who A) grew up in an enclave-monastery and B) has had martial training in order to hone his body and mind to the point where it's very hard to hurt him.

Thoughts?

I hate to say it, but I agree with your DM... Here's why...

You only get the Unarmored bonus when not wearing armor and having no shield. The wild shape turns you into a beast... which has natural armor. I would rule that natural armor is still considered armor.

Also that any armor you are wearing gets molded into your new form, thus you would still be wearing it.

Sorry to disappoint.

[MadGrady]

Yeah - going to agree with your DM here. 5e works on the premise that AC is now more of a static number vs an additional formula you add. When not in wild shape, it makes sense that UD would apply. However, Wild Shape specifically says you take the stats of the animal form. Thus it makes it so your AC = X.

You don't get to change the formula, you just take the AC of the new form.

[Kryx]

Unarmored movement does apply: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/26/monkdruid-unarmored-movement/

Unarmored defense does apply: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/14/druid-monk-unarmored-defense-in-shapeshift-form/

Martial arts does not adjust the damage of the monster, but you can still make unarmed strikes: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/monk-druid/

On unarmored defense: Whenever you have multiple options to choose from you choose the best. In this case the creature or your unarmored defense. It works by RAW and by dev tweets.

You can also see a stackexchange on it: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/55090/while-using-wild-shape-do-i-use-unarmored-defense-or-the-creatures-armor-class

[MadGrady]

I still side with the DM in this case. To me the Wild Shape is not giving you options - it's replacing all of them entirely.

[Kryx]

Actually - according to PHB pg. 164 (top right) - you only gain the UD from your orginal class, not a further multiclass. So if you are going to multiclass into classes that both gain UD - you need to be certain which one you pick first, as that is the only one you can use).

Which is not relevant here. You're choosing between Unarmored Defense and natural armor - two totally different things.


I still side with the DM in this case. To me the Wild Shape is not giving you options - it's replacing all of them entirely.

You can choose to do so, but that is a houserule, and not RAW. RAW is set and the developers have cleared up RAI via their tweets.

[3SecondCultist]

One of the big things that I found to support the 'pro' side of the argument: obviously the PHB doesn't intend for the natural armor of Wild Shape to be fixed, otherwise they would have a clause forbidding spells that have a duration of Concentration like Barkskin to be active while in that same form.

The RAW does not support a formulaic AC, but it's not armor in the given sense.

[Theodoxus]

How do you turn off natural armor, to then pick UD? I don't think you get to. If you had a 20 Dex and Wis, but pick an animal with a 16 AC, you get a 16 AC, not the 20 from UD.

Pop back into your hominid form and UD applies.

This is just another example where Druid/Monk MC in 3.5 was kicking - but in 5th, just too much doesn't overlap. I had a player who's brother insisted that D/M was the bomb, because he was thinking of 3.5 - the 5th ed incarnation was the worst character in the group - and the poor kid couldn't figure out why.

[Easy_Lee]

By RAW it works. Unarmored means not wearing any armor. If you suddenly grew scales, or some other form of natural armor, that would not constitute wearing armor. Why? Because you're not wearing it and it's not on the armor table.

Moon druids explicitly retain features while shapeshifting. It's in the description. That's why you can take charger or sentinel and still use it as a bear or mammoth.

The combination works by RAW. Any DM who doesn't allow it is making a straight-up houserule against the player.

[3SecondCultist]

The combination works by RAW. Any DM who doesn't allow it is making a straight-up houserule against the player.

This. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that my interpretation at least held some weight. I'll be bringing this to my DM. :smallsmile:

[Easy_Lee]

Martial arts does not apply: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/11/monk-druid/

Regarding what Mearls said, monk druid martial arts might actually still work. As long as you use the monk side for unarmed strikes, in terms of the number of attacks, the damage they deal, etc as if you weren't shapeshfting, it should work fine.

I picture a panther slapping people with the padded parts of its paws. Flurry of 1d4s, bitch!

[Kryx]

Regarding what Mearls said, monk druid martial arts might actually still work. As long as you use the monk side for unarmed strikes, in terms of the number of attacks, the damage they deal, etc as if you weren't shapeshfting, it should work fine.

I picture a panther slapping people with the padded parts of its paws. Flurry of 1d4s, bitch!

Ya, I should've been a bit more clear. The "Martial Arts" feature doesn't adjust the animal's damage, though you could still make an unarmed strike in that form.

[Easy_Lee]

Ya, I should've been a bit more clear. The "Martial Arts" feature doesn't adjust the animal's damage, though you could still make an unarmed strike in that form.

Yep, seems pretty clear. I'm not sure why this comes up so often.

[CrusaderJoe]

Unarmored Defense is the best way to actually get a half way decent AC out of your beasts. Barding doesn't really work since you would need to wear it at all times... Though I've seen a player attempt that.

Was pretty hilarious.

[Shining Wrath]

If a Dragon Sorcerer multiclasses Monk or Barbarian (please don't let your heads explode from the suboptimality of it all), do their inherent scales preclude unarmored defense?

I think the intent is what a non-D&D player would "get" reading those rules; are you wearing armor? No? Then UD works.

"Being armored" and "wearing armor" are different things. You don't normally speak of someone as wearing their skin.

[Easy_Lee]

Unarmored Defense is the best way to actually get a half way decent AC out of your beasts. Barding doesn't really work since you would need to wear it at all times... Though I've seen a player attempt that.

Was pretty hilarious.

I just gave my moon druid a bracer that acts like leather armor, and may include some sort of magical barding later. That's not something every DM will do, though. Monk is by no means a bad 1-level dip for a moon druid.

[archaeo]

Monk is by no means a bad 1-level dip for a moon druid.

I think it's worth pointing out that delaying Druid levels for Unarmored Defense doesn't strike me as a strictly optimal move; there are pros and cons, and I think one of the biggest cons is giving up or delaying some of the Druid's higher levels. If the campaign is going to go above 15 levels or so, I don't think it's worth it.

Luckily, it's the sort of decision you can theoretically make at any level before 20. I think most Druids will find their defense acceptable with the big piles of HP they get. If you find a DM who'll abide by Crawford's stated intention of the RAW, and it turns out the campaign means you need to get some defense on your Druid, picking up a Monk level is not the worst possible decision.

[CrusaderJoe]

I just gave my moon druid a bracer that acts like leather armor, and may include some sort of magical barding later. That's not something every DM will do, though. Monk is by no means a bad 1-level dip for a moon druid.

Well my statement is more meant to be used without DM intervention... Because I have no clue what a DM will do or not do.

Another option is 3 levels of warlock (armor of shadows + Beast Speech invocations) and chain pact. Fun times right there.