WoTC Screwed Up Wildshape [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Easy_Lee

2015-01-28, 05:19 PM

Considering the Moon Druid already gets their skills and Proficiencies on top of the animals skills and proficiencies and they get the HP on top of their own HP. I think limiting the ability of DCs (which would be based off an animal, not how strong a Druid is) and the Attack bonus is fine.

They are already the hardest things to kill in the game at lvl 20 due to infinite wild shapes.

They can turn into any creature of CR 6 or lower.
They can turn into any elemental of CR 6 or lower (Technically the book does not put a CR limit on them)
They can do this every round for the rest of their lives
Their HP starts back at full in animal form whenever they shift (True, Druid HP can drop still)

You're highlighting other benefits to playing a moon druid rather than addressing the fact that the Druid's forms don't get any stronger or change at all with level. The best a druid can ever do is whatever CR 6 beast he can find. That means that, while other players have scaling attacks and abilities, druids don't.

To make a point, consider a level 15 moon druid in an encounter. He can't threaten most CR 16 Creatures with a CR 5 form, and can be ignored completely until he reverts. The only thing he can hope to do is try to tank.

I've already addressed the HP and infinite wildshape issues at my table, but that's another story.

Kryx

2015-01-28, 05:23 PM

A level 20 moon druid shapeshifting into a giant spider ought to have a better chance of landing attacks and a higher DC for his web than a level 2 moon druid.

Dalebert had a long debate about this in a thread a while ago. You may be able to find it via search.

I think druids are intended to pick new, more powerful, forms as they level.

Adjusting to hit would be a pain as the animals are not all calculated "correctly" by PC standards. They are calculated by CR standards so it's difficult to work out what the bonus would be if you applied your proficiency modifier.
I'm fairly undecided on that.

DC is much easier to calculate, but a lot of conditions would become very powerful if they applied your full DC. For instance a wolf knocking prone and giving advantage to all allies is REALLY good by default and borderline broken at a higher DC.

I guess I'm against both concepts initially, but if someone balanced them then I'd be more ok with the idea and consider it myself.

mephnick

2015-01-28, 05:25 PM

I'm fine with it not being a great combat option, but does it really only get to cr 6? That's pretty low..

Kryx

2015-01-28, 05:27 PM

To make a point, consider a level 15 moon druid in an encounter. He can't threaten most CR 16 Creatures with a CR 5 form, and can be ignored completely until he reverts. The only thing he can hope to do is try to tank.

I think this will change pretty significantly as we see a MM2. Very few creatures in the MM are higher level.

I've already addressed the HP and infinite wildshape issues at my table, but that's another story.

Quick note since it's relevant, but we don't need to discuss it here: I use the following 2 house rules on druids:

Moon Druid has its wildshape progression delayed by 1 step. At level 2 their maximum CR is 1/2. At 4 it is CR 1, and 6+ is CR 2 as is the normal.
If a Druid falls to 0 while wildshaped the druid cannot wildshape back into the same form until the Druid completes a short rest.

Everything else is normal.

Easy_Lee

2015-01-28, 05:32 PM

I'm fine with it not being a great combat option, but does it really only get to cr 6? That's pretty low..

Moon druid max wildshape is CR6. WoTC seems to have balanced it against a party of 4, which at level 20 could be expected to handle 3-9 CR6 creatures according to http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/calc/enc_size.html.

Overall. I'm very dissatisfied with moon druids and wildshape in general. I already have been doing tests with attacks based on the form's Str or Dex + the Druid's proficiency in my game. The HP thing is broken, so I imposed a rule that dying while shapeshifted is a shock and makes you unable to take actions on your next turn. This way the Druid doesn't take 3x longer to kill than everyone else.

I don't think it's fair for druids to have to seek out better and better forms. I'm going to have to come up with something custom that fixes the balance issues.

Kryx

2015-01-28, 05:35 PM

I don't think it's fair for druids to have to seek out better and better forms. I'm going to have to come up with something custom that fixes the balance issues.

Please do. I'd be curious to see it.

Adjusting the Atk bonus to match higher CR forums shouldn't be unbalanced - as it just matches the higher CR form and the HP and AC are still low. It is just intended to create more diversity so I think that's good.

I think the effects like trip will be harder to balance.

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-28, 08:48 PM

These forms at level 18 becomes a fricken full caster.

I'm pretty sure that jumps the CR of the form way way up.

Don't make the forms to strong or versatile or else adding full caster just won't be fair.

JFahy

2015-01-28, 10:28 PM

They cover the most-played levels pretty well by giving sets of the more
common creatures - you can use panther/tiger/sabertooth or black bear/
brown bear/polar bear and pretend it's the same form getting more powerful.

Seems like it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate a couple more forms
for high level if it feels like they're starting to lag behind...?

Giant2005

2015-01-28, 11:29 PM

Endarire

2015-01-28, 11:49 PM

In 5E, damage spells become more powerful with level. Disintegrate does more damage than a magic missile boosted to spell level 6. That's intentional. Some new things are meant to generally replace older things.

Regardless, a Druid's Wild Shape (especially on a Moon Druid) makes him very versatile! It seems well worth the trade!

Safety Sword

2015-01-29, 12:03 AM

I think that as the druid encounters more beasts they will be "upgrading" forms, so it's not really an issue.

Giant Spider 2nd Level Moon Druids are the definition of "Beast Mode"

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 12:05 AM

After giving it more thought, I think more powerful Wildshapes could work if the Druid only had his default HP pool which was shared between his natural state and any form he chose. That way you wouldn't have the effect of having one powerful form replaced by another and then another, being wiped out once would wipe you out regardless of the form. Essentially Wildshaping would simply change the Druid's options, not give him extra lives.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 12:11 AM

I think that as the druid encounters more beasts they will be "upgrading" forms, so it's not really an issue.

Giant Spider 2nd Level Moon Druids are the definition of "Beast Mode"

Yes, but then they quickly stop scaling. Pre 5 moon druids are way too good, past that point they rapidly become useless. The amount of animal forms available sharply drops and they often aren't much better than the CR 1 forms.

Wildshape isn't supposed to be a substitute for a character. It is a power that is in addition to the cpaabilities of a character.
If the things you transformed into were of comparable power to a character, then you would be twice or three times as powerful as the rest of the party by being a comparatively powerful Wildshape, then another and then a comparatively powerful Druid.
The Wildshape isn't nor should it be as powerful as an unwildshaped character, having it progress like one would be grossly OP. If you are going to do it at all, I'd suggest taking a page from the BM's book and limit shapes that have progression to CR 1/4 or lower.
Then what's the point of having wildshape as your main subclass feature?

As is it's useful for the first few levels, then only becomes useful for absorbing damage. The damage absorption bit is a bit dumb, because it makes them too strong at points - they can effectively have triple hp.

So, what kind of fixes could we implement? I would suggest flat out removing the HP replacing part and have them keep their own HP, it'll make balance a lot easier. So, how do we make them stronger? How do we make sure they keep scaling past the first few levels?

Easy_Lee

2015-01-29, 01:23 AM

Wildshape isn't supposed to be a substitute for a character. It is a power that is in addition to the cpaabilities of a character.
If the things you transformed into were of comparable power to a character, then you would be twice or three times as powerful as the rest of the party by being a comparatively powerful Wildshape, then another and then a comparatively powerful Druid.
The Wildshape isn't nor should it be as powerful as an unwildshaped character, having it progress like one would be grossly OP. If you are going to do it at all, I'd suggest taking a page from the BM's book and limit shapes that have progression to CR 1/4 or lower.

I'm very glad someone tried to make this argument. Let's examine three creatures which a moon druid might wildshape into.

Panther
Killer Whale
Mammoth

The panther is CR 1/4, the Killer Whale is CR3, and the mammoth is CR6 (meaning you don't get it until you're way up there).

The panther can do 1d4+2 piercing damage on a claw attack, and can pounce to knock a target prone (DC12) with a claw attack. It can make a bite attack as a bonus action (1d6+2) if the target fails the check from pounce. It has +4 to hit. By this level (1), fighters usually have around +5 to hit, and are probably doing 2d6 +3 or, at least, 1d8 +3 on a hit. Even if the druid had +5 hit, advantage goes to fighter.

The killer whale can make one bite attack for 21 (5d6+4) damage, +6 to hit. Druids can do this at 9th level. By then, a fighter might be making two greatsword, two halberd + bonus, or three scimitar attacks. A fighter probably also has 18 in his attack stat by then. So, assuming halberd (lowest damage of the three options), (1d10+4)*2+(1d4+4) = 25.5, with +8 to hit most likely. Even if the druid had +8 to hit, advantage goes to fighter, particularly since the fighter might have a magic weapon by then and will definitely have some special attacks (or extra crit) that he can get on his turn. Even a duelist + shield fighter would do (1d8+2+4)*2 = 21 damage, matching the killer whale and having far better defense. Advantage: fighter.

By 18, the druid can turn into a mammoth, if he's seen one. The mammoth may charge a target, permitted one is 20 feet away in a straight line, and try to gore it (+10 hit, 25 average damage). Target must make a DC18 strength check, one point lower than the maximum druid spell DC. If the gore succeeds, the mammoth can bonus action stomp for 29 average damage, +10 hit. A fighter at this level, even if he's two weapon fighting which is widely regarded as the worst option, can do five attacks at (1d6+5). You can guarantee he's maxed his relevant stat by then, and that's 42.5 damage. He gets that damage every round, regardless of any archetype features or crits or anything, all at +11. If the druid can charge every turn, and land his gore every turn, and get the target to fail every turn, he can outdamage the fighter, but only if the fighter doesn't use any archetype features or action surge.

What if we allowed moon druids to swap their spell DC and spell attack for the DC and to-hit of wildshape forms? That'd be a pretty simple change, and we would end up with very slightly stronger versions of those same forms, which were still inferior to a fighter but which could at least reliably contribute to fights vs. high-AC targets. The damage dealt by forms wouldn't change at all, it would just be a bit more reliable and forms would scale much better. Your 18 druid could conceivably wildshape into a panther, and still use its pounce attack to knock targets prone from stealth. As in, bounded accuracy would be maintained, not broken. Meanwhile, the mammoth would get a measly +1 to its to-hit and DC, maximum. As in, the level 18 druid transforming into a CR6 creature made a slightly better version of that creature.

So you see, Giant2005, this kind of change doesn't actually break anything. All it does is ensure lower-level wildshape forms are still usable at higher levels. It doesn't change the damage dealt by those forms in the slightest, just makes their chance of actually landing attacks keep pace with everyone else's.

Now what was your argument, again?

Easy_Lee

2015-01-29, 01:27 AM

I think that as the druid encounters more beasts they will be "upgrading" forms, so it's not really an issue.

Giant Spider 2nd Level Moon Druids are the definition of "Beast Mode"

In theory, maybe. In practice, the giant spider was a lot easier for the minotaur skeleton I sent at the party to hit than the other party members. And she never actually managed to land her webbing on anyone. I could have killed her if I'd focused her.

She would have been better off transforming into a brown bear, but I don't allow multiattack before 5 just to keep the moon druid in line with fighter progression.

Spacehamster

2015-01-29, 02:29 AM

Eslin

2015-01-29, 02:37 AM

Where is the problem of a fighter beeing better at melee compared to a moon druid? Fighter is fully martial or at most 1/3 caster while the moon druid is also a full caster, so the fighter should be better at martial part of combat by default?

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond

Because the druid power arc is completely out of whack. Level 2-4 and 20 they're ridiculous, while between 5 and 19 wild shaping becomes more and more useless. Why wouldn't we instead want a more smooth power curve? I have no problem with them being less capable in combat than a fighter, but at present they're either better or a lot worse. Shouldn't we stabilise it at a fixed point?

Scarab112

2015-01-29, 02:43 AM

I'm very glad someone tried to make this argument. Let's examine three creatures which a moon druid might wildshape into.

snip

The problem is that if all these changes might make the druid overshadow the fighter. You've already proven that the Mammoth can outdo a fighter of the same level on damage assuming everything goes well, which though rare, would imply that the mammoth is already at a fairly good level. Imagine if instead of that though, you went for a Panther or a Wolf. Not only are you just as accurate now, but tripping things becomes a viable strategy. You'd be losing out on damage, but you're just as good at tripping things as a battlemaster, and he can only do it a few times between short rests. Is that a good trade off? It depends on the situation, but there are quite a lot of beasts to choose from, some of which might greatly benefit from this change in unforeseen ways.

The Druid should not be an extremely viable melee combatant while using wildshape. Otherwise, it becomes a situation like 3.5 again where there's no reason to play a fighter, since a druid can do everything they can do as well as cast several levels of spells. As you pointed out, at high levels the Mammoth is nearly on par with a fighter already.

More importantly, why do you feel like the druid needs a boost? Is it underpowered? Most people would say no. If I recall, your complaint is that Wildshape doesn't fit in with bounded accuracy, and so it needs to scale. That is the exact opposite of what bounded accuracy means. Bounded accuracy means low level creatures and characters still have a chance of hitting high level ones. The range of possible bonuses is lower so that you don't need as many bonuses to still contribute. While Wildshaping into Low CR creatures might not be the best decision, there is still some potential for utility of the smaller forms, and there are some other options in terms of combat wildshapes at high levels.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 02:54 AM

The problem is that if all these changes might make the druid overshadow the fighter. You've already proven that the Mammoth can outdo a fighter of the same level on damage assuming everything goes well, which though rare, would imply that the mammoth is already at a fairly good level. Imagine if instead of that though, you went for a Panther or a Wolf. Not only are you just as accurate now, but tripping things becomes a viable strategy. You'd be losing out on damage, but you're just as good at tripping things as a battlemaster, and he can only do it a few times between short rests. Is that a good trade off? It depends on the situation, but there are quite a lot of beasts to choose from, some of which might greatly benefit from this change in unforeseen ways.

The Druid should not be an extremely viable melee combatant while using wildshape. Otherwise, it becomes a situation like 3.5 again where there's no reason to play a fighter, since a druid can do everything they can do as well as cast several levels of spells. As you pointed out, at high levels the Mammoth is nearly on par with a fighter already.

More importantly, why do you feel like the druid needs a boost? Is it underpowered? Most people would say no. If I recall, your complaint is that Wildshape doesn't fit in with bounded accuracy, and so it needs to scale. That is the exact opposite of what bounded accuracy means. Bounded accuracy means low level creatures and characters still have a chance of hitting high level ones. The range of possible bonuses is lower so that you don't need as many bonuses to still contribute. While Wildshaping into Low CR creatures might not be the best decision, there is still some potential for utility of the smaller forms, and there are some other options in terms of combat wildshapes at high levels.

No, druid needs bounded accuracy because being the only character to lose proficiency for using a class ability is stupid.

Balance, fun and strength are not always the same thing, and wild shape is sometimes too good and sometimes too crap - neither of these things is fun. Being able to wild shape and consistently perform would raise the amount of fun druids have, even if it's a nerf in parts because you remove the HP replacement part for instance.

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 03:40 AM

I'm very glad someone tried to make this argument. Let's examine three creatures which a moon druid might wildshape into.

Panther
Killer Whale
Mammoth

The panther is CR 1/4, the Killer Whale is CR3, and the mammoth is CR6 (meaning you don't get it until you're way up there).

The panther can do 1d4+2 piercing damage on a claw attack, and can pounce to knock a target prone (DC12) with a claw attack. It can make a bite attack as a bonus action (1d6+2) if the target fails the check from pounce. It has +4 to hit. By this level (1), fighters usually have around +5 to hit, and are probably doing 2d6 +3 or, at least, 1d8 +3 on a hit. Even if the druid had +5 hit, advantage goes to fighter.

The killer whale can make one bite attack for 21 (5d6+4) damage, +6 to hit. Druids can do this at 9th level. By then, a fighter might be making two greatsword, two halberd + bonus, or three scimitar attacks. A fighter probably also has 18 in his attack stat by then. So, assuming halberd (lowest damage of the three options), (1d10+4)*2+(1d4+4) = 25.5, with +8 to hit most likely. Even if the druid had +8 to hit, advantage goes to fighter, particularly since the fighter might have a magic weapon by then and will definitely have some special attacks (or extra crit) that he can get on his turn. Even a duelist + shield fighter would do (1d8+2+4)*2 = 21 damage, matching the killer whale and having far better defense. Advantage: fighter.

By 18, the druid can turn into a mammoth, if he's seen one. The mammoth may charge a target, permitted one is 20 feet away in a straight line, and try to gore it (+10 hit, 25 average damage). Target must make a DC18 strength check, one point lower than the maximum druid spell DC. If the gore succeeds, the mammoth can bonus action stomp for 29 average damage, +10 hit. A fighter at this level, even if he's two weapon fighting which is widely regarded as the worst option, can do five attacks at (1d6+5). You can guarantee he's maxed his relevant stat by then, and that's 42.5 damage. He gets that damage every round, regardless of any archetype features or crits or anything, all at +11. If the druid can charge every turn, and land his gore every turn, and get the target to fail every turn, he can outdamage the fighter, but only if the fighter doesn't use any archetype features or action surge.
You missed the point.
In each and every one of those examples you listed, the Druid far outshines the Fighter. The Druid is supposedly comparable to the Fighter which means any benefit he gets from Wildshape is above and beyond what the Fighter is capable of. Sure the Panther or whatever doesn't compare to a Fighter of the same level but the Druid itself does - the Druid will inflict some damage while Wildshaped and then once it is defeated pop back out as a Druid that is fully comparable with a Fighter and finish the target off. Everything the Druid did while Wildshaped is a bonus that the Fighter lacks before the Druid comes out in his true form and is equal with the Fighter but not on equal footing due to having already inflicted some damage.
If you empower the Wildshape to be comparable to the Fighter, then the Druid is essentially twice as powerful as the Fighter. He will inflict/withstand the same kind of treatment as a Beast and then pop back out perfectly refreshed as a Druid for a second round. The Fighter only gets one round hence the imbalance.
As I said earlier, if the Druid only had the one pool of HP then it wouldn't matter, both the Druid and the Wildshape can be of comparable strength to the Fighter and balance would be maintained due to not having essentially twice the HP and consequently twice the survival rate/time to inflict damage.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 03:58 AM

You missed the point.
In each and every one of those examples you listed, the Druid far outshines the Fighter. The Druid is supposedly comparable to the Fighter which means any benefit he gets from Wildshape is above and beyond what the Fighter is capable of. Sure the Panther or whatever doesn't compare to a Fighter of the same level but the Druid itself does - the Druid will inflict some damage while Wildshaped and then once it is defeated pop back out as a Druid that is fully comparable with a Fighter and finish the target off. Everything the Druid did while Wildshaped is a bonus that the Fighter lacks before the Druid comes out in his true form and is equal with the Fighter but not on equal footing due to having already inflicted some damage.
If you empower the Wildshape to be comparable to the Fighter, then the Druid is essentially twice as powerful as the Fighter. He will inflict/withstand the same kind of treatment as a Beast and then pop back out perfectly refreshed as a Druid for a second round. The Fighter only gets one round hence the imbalance.
As I said earlier, if the Druid only had the one pool of HP then it wouldn't matter, both the Druid and the Wildshape can be of comparable strength to the Fighter and balance would be maintained due to not having essentially twice the HP and consequently twice the survival rate/time to inflict damage.

So make the druid only have one pool of HP, then buff him to the point where wild shape is always useful for combat but stays behind the fighter.

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-29, 04:32 AM

So make the druid only have one pool of HP, then buff him to the point where wild shape is always useful for combat but stays behind the fighter.

Problem: People won't see the use of playing a wildshape druid if you suck in combat compared to the fighter.

We had this issue with evocation for a long time, then finally in 4e they made magic blasting equal to martial fighting. Now in 5e if you nerfed blasting but left the rest of the class the same... People would say "what's the point in blasting" and hate the evoker/blaster again (but wish it was a good option).

Same thing with the druid.

The answer isn't changing the druid. The answer is bringing the fighter up in areas outaide direct damage. 4e showed us that nerfing magic isn't a good idea. So why not try the other way and see what we get.

High magic awesomeness with high martial awesomeness.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 04:43 AM

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 04:46 AM

Problem: People won't see the use of playing a wildshape druid if you suck in combat compared to the fighter.

We had this issue with evocation for a long time, then finally in 4e they made magic blasting equal to martial fighting. Now in 5e if you nerfed blasting but left the rest of the class the same... People would say "what's the point in blasting" and hate the evoker/blaster again (but wish it was a good option).

Same thing with the druid.

The answer isn't changing the druid. The answer is bringing the fighter up in areas outaide direct damage. 4e showed us that nerfing magic isn't a good idea. So why not try the other way and see what we get.

High magic awesomeness with high martial awesomeness.

If the Wildshapes shared the Druid's natural HP total, there would be no need to keep the 2/day Wildshape limitation.
The Druid would essentially be another Jack of all Trades class and a very competent one. Via Wildshape it could hold its own in combat although not as well as a dedicated martial character, while still having the option of full spellcasting and all of the utility that changing into animal forms could bring.
There aren't many changes that have been proposed around these forums that I think are better than canon but this is one of them. It fixes a lot of issues while keeping balance and in my opinion making the Druid a more attractive class.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 04:50 AM

If the Wildshapes shared the Druid's natural HP total, there would be no need to keep the 2/day Wildshape limitation.
The Druid would essentially be another Jack of all Trades class and a very competent one. Via Wildshape it could hold its own in combat although not as well as a dedicated martial character, while still having the option of full spellcasting and all of the utility that changing into animal forms could bring.
There aren't many changes that have been proposed around these forums that I think are better than canon but this is one of them. It fixes a lot of issues while keeping balance and in my opinion making the Druid a more attractive class.

Seems there's a general consensus. So, what should wild shape look like? Keep in mind there's a complexity penalty, we don't want anything that will take a spreadsheet to work out.

What we have so far: Wild shape does not replace the druid's HP pool. Gets rid of a lot of balance issues, but now to boost it to usable we need to empower the forms somehow. They're fine at 2, but by mid game you just can't compete.

So, what do we do? Bump the CR it can take? Add proficiency bonus to damage and AC?

silveralen

2015-01-29, 04:54 AM

I figured since this was a direct combat comparison the solution would be to make wildshaping equal to a fighter in ability to take and absorb damage, but without the fighter's combat utility (battlemaster and such). That seems fair, yes?

Well, let's see.

1. Druid has spells which can boost damage, AC, and other abilities in animal form already. More powerful spells than an eldritch knight does. So if moon druid wildshape = fighter, moon druid > fighter in raw ability.

2. Combat utility compared to spell utility, spell utility wins. The gap is much better than it once was, if Druid were a half caster that'd be one thing, but the class isn't.

Honestly, if Druid had a single pool of HP and a half caster it'd make sense for his combat ability to scale to this degree.

You are literally breaking something to make it resemble 3.5. If balance isn't a concern, which it must not be to consider making moon Druid this good a combatant, then you could just play 3.5 and not have to worry about homebrew.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 04:58 AM

Well, let's see.

1. Druid has spells which can boost damage, AC, and other abilities in animal form already. More powerful spells than an eldritch knight does. So if moon druid wildshape = fighter, moon druid > fighter in raw ability.

2. Combat utility compared to spell utility, spell utility wins. The gap is much better than it once was, if Druid were a half caster that'd be one thing, but the class isn't.

Honestly, if Druid had a single pool of HP and a half caster it'd make sense for his combat ability to scale to this degree.

This isn't replacing the fact that wildshaping starts to suck pretty quickly. Look at the CR 3 and 4 creatures and honestly tell me they're worth turning into. Something has to change. And what spells do they have that can boost their animal form damage?

silveralen

2015-01-29, 05:36 AM

This isn't replacing the fact that wildshaping starts to suck pretty quickly. Look at the CR 3 and 4 creatures and honestly tell me they're worth turning into. Something has to change. And what spells do they have that can boost their animal form damage?

It does change. Between CR 3 and CR 4, moon druids gain the ability to shift into elemental forms. Resistance to non magical weapons, good attack power, lots AC and HP. What's not to love?

Oh lots of spells. Summon spells can be maintained. Direct damage spells can, like flame sphere or call lightning. Polymorph gives them access to more powerful forms. Foresight does in a big way as well.

If they just want to hit things in melee for lots of damage, the problem is that they aren't playing a class built to do so. They area full caster to start with, so they are never going to be as good in a brawl as the other classes, and their abilities are geared towards toughness over raw damage as well (that's the whole class, most of druid's abilities are support, control, and healing over pure damage).

Are you complaining that cleric can't match a paladin in melee without burning spells? Because it is the same sort of situation, though honestly moon druid probably wins in basic damage, 1-2 points of attack rarely beat making an additional attack so far as average damage goes.

Rallicus

2015-01-29, 05:40 AM

Eslin

2015-01-29, 05:47 AM

This is hilarious.

A few months ago we were complaining about how overpowered the onion druid is; now we're discussing why it isn't fair that the druid's unshaped forms don't have scaling accuracy. Because... you know... having a huge repertoire of spells and lots of extra HP isn't enough.

Never change OoTS.

We're also discussing getting rid of the onion druid nature in the same breath. If wizards had no useful spells except 'super duper death ray that kills anything you look at instantly, no save' then we'd want to get rid of that but we'd also want to make sure wizards were able to have fun and be useful at the same time.

Getting a little sick of the kneejerk druids are too good already style reactions in this thread.

It does change. Between CR 3 and CR 4, moon druids gain the ability to shift into elemental forms. Resistance to non magical weapons, good attack power, lots AC and HP. What's not to love?

Oh lots of spells. Summon spells can be maintained. Direct damage spells can, like flame sphere or call lightning. Polymorph gives them access to more powerful forms. Foresight does in a big way as well.

If they just want to hit things in melee for lots of damage, the problem is that they aren't playing a class built to do so. They area full caster to start with, so they are never going to be as good in a brawl as the other classes, and their abilities are geared towards toughness over raw damage as well (that's the whole class, most of druid's abilities are support, control, and healing over pure damage).

Are you complaining that cleric can't match a paladin in melee without burning spells? Because it is the same sort of situation, though honestly moon druid probably wins in basic damage, 1-2 points of attack rarely beat making an additional attack so far as average damage goes.

Then what's the point of the wild shape feature? The CR3/4 creatures are useless, and your argument basically boils down to 'wild shape doesn't have to be useful'. There's an entire subclass dedicated to it though, so we want it to be.

Rallicus

2015-01-29, 05:55 AM

The CR3/4 creatures are useless.

Do people actually believe this?

silveralen

2015-01-29, 06:19 AM

Then what's the point of the wild shape feature? The CR3/4 creatures are useless, and your argument basically boils down to 'wild shape doesn't have to be useful'. There's an entire subclass dedicated to it though, so we want it to be.

Better damage than cantrips, tons of free HP, elemental form is part of the same subclass, etc.

There is an entire fighter subclass dedicated to casting spells. How many threads exist complaining that a eldritch knight who stands back and tries to toss spells every fight without using his weapon is useless? None, because for some reason people can look at eldritch knight and go "oh, I am still a fighter, I just have some magic now" but when it comes to moon druid people can't think "oh, I have some melee combat ability, but I am still a caster at heart". The subclass matters less than the class. That's true in literally every case. Your class defines you more.

It isn't use;less, but if you think a moon druid spends all time shifted and attacking things in melee, you will suck every bit as bad as the eldritch knight who only casts spells. That is because you are overfocusing on a niche portion of the class, one that does not represent the biggest portion of your power.

If you want moon druid to be focused on fighting first and foremost, you need to change the base class. For starters, half spell progression.

Getting a little sick of the kneejerk druids are too good already style reactions in this thread.

You are suggesting making a full caster as good in melee as the melee focused classes. Of course that's the reaction. What you are suggesting is so badly balanced and broken it boggles the mind why you would suggest it.

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 06:27 AM

So, what do we do? Bump the CR it can take? Add proficiency bonus to damage and AC?
No idea.
It would take a tremendous system to make the Wildshapes decently functional while also keeping them below the level of the Fighter. Increasing the CR options wouldn't really help at this stage as there aren't really a lot of high CR Beasts in the book in the first place.
I also don't think more damage is the issue - Wildshaping already has plenty of heavy hitting options but more to-hit wouldn't be unreasonable. Using the Druid's spell attack for the Beast attacks is an obvious and easy option that shouldn't unbalance things and having the Druid's equipment still be functional (Mostly talking armor here) when merged into the Beast form would probably help too without breaking anything.
Beyond that, I am out of ideas although the above two options might close the gap more than enough on their own. The end result would be that regardless of what the shape is, it would have the Druid's AC, to-hit and HP while using the beast's attacks and abilities.

You are suggesting making a full caster as good in melee as the melee focused classes. Of course that's the reaction. What you are suggesting is so badly balanced and broken it boggles the mind why you would suggest it.

What exactly would be so wrong with the above? If anything it should be considered more of a nerf to the Druid than a buff due to having less of a pool of HP than standard. Other than that, his utility is increased while his combat abilities are basically on par with a martial character minus all of the class abilities that those martial characters get. Aside from getting potentially higher damage in a hit and a possible rider effect from the Wildshape, it would be virtually the same as a Druid using Shillelagh.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 06:29 AM

Do people actually believe this?

Cr 4 form is... elephant. Nothing more. One choice. Let's compare it to your average bear:

Comparing the level 2 form to the level 12 form:

Hp 34 vs 76
AC 11 vs 12
Speed 40ft/30ft climbvs 40ft
Senses keen smell vs nothing
Average damage 1.9.5 at +5 vs 24 at +8 (can stomp if you charge and target fails a DC12 strength save - at that level the average strength save is about 6 if I'm being nice, so 1/4 stomp damage added)

1 AC, 42HP, +3 hit and +4.5 damage, no keen smell or climb but a small chance at prone. Does that say ten levels of advancement to you? Now, remember that we're removing the HP pool thing:
Ten levels on you have +3 hit, +1 AC, +4.5 damage. Ten levels on a paladin will have +4 hit, +2 AC, +21 damage. Seeing a difference?

Better damage than cantrips, tons of free HP, elemental form is part of the same subclass, etc.

There is an entire fighter subclass dedicated to casting spells. How many threads exist complaining that a eldritch knight who stands back and tries to toss spells every fight without using his weapon is useless? None, because for some reason people can look at eldritch knight and go "oh, I am still a fighter, I just have some magic now" but when it comes to moon druid people can't think "oh, I have some melee combat ability, but I am still a caster at heart". The subclass matters less than the class. That's true in literally every case. Your class defines you more.

It isn't use;less, but if you think a moon druid spends all time shifted and attacking things in melee, you will suck every bit as bad as the eldritch knight who only casts spells. That is because you are overfocusing on a niche portion of the class, one that does not represent the biggest portion of your power.

If you want moon druid to be focused on fighting first and foremost, you need to change the base class. For starters, half spell progression.

You are suggesting making a full caster as good in melee as the melee focused classes. Of course that's the reaction. What you are suggesting is so badly balanced and broken it boggles the mind why you would suggest it.
Then what's the point of having a moon druid subclass?

silveralen

2015-01-29, 06:39 AM

Cr 4 form is... elephant. Nothing more. One choice. Let's compare it to your average bear:

Comparing the level 2 form to the level 12 form:

Hp 34 vs 76
AC 11 vs 12
Speed 40ft/30ft climbvs 40ft
Senses keen smell vs nothing
Average damage 1.9.5 at +5 vs 24 at +8 (can stomp if you charge and target fails a DC12 strength save - at that level the average strength save is about 6 if I'm being nice, so 1/4 stomp damage added)

1 AC, 42HP, +3 hit and +4.5 damage, no keen smell or climb but a small chance at prone. Does that say ten levels of advancement to you?

That's not all the moon druid got in those ten levels. It's like saying all fighter gets from lvl 3 to lvl 13 is 5d6 more damage and a bit larger AoE twice a day, comparing fireball and burning hands. You aren't even taking into account all the gains of the subclass (elemental form and ignoring resistance to non magic).

Let's compare moon druid and valor bard.

By lvl 12, a moon druid has 24 damage at +8. A bard might have 24 damage at a +9, if he uses a great weapon and has maxed strength, difficult to do due to needing a high CHA as well if he sues any offensive spells. Of course, a moon druid doesn't need to worry about MAD, and then we have the extra HP.

Moon druid already has tons of advantages, stop treating the class as if it weren't a full casting class. It is. It has great melee ability for that, much like Valor bard, and the fact it avoids the MAD issues alone makes it virtually guaranteed to be better at one of the two aspects. It is balanced... unless you think valor bard needs some buffing?

Then what's the point of having a moon druid subclass?

That's like saying what's the point of having valor bard or eldritch knight?

Hybrid classes are fun. You get to dabble in an area that isn't your focus, and have a more well rounded ability set. You get to be a full caster who can fight in melee, even if you aren't the best melee fighter. It beats chucking cantrips.

You are a hybrid. That means playing like a hybrid, and realizing which way you lean.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 06:48 AM

That's not all the moon druid got in those ten levels. It's like saying all fighter gets from lvl 3 to lvl 13 is 5d6 more damage and a bit larger AoE twice a day, comparing fireball and burning hands. You aren't even taking into account all the gains of the subclass (elemental form and ignoring resistance to non magic).

Let's compare moon druid and valor bard.

By lvl 12, a moon druid has 24 damage at +8. A bard might have 24 damage at a +9, if he uses a great weapon and has maxed strength, difficult to do due to needing a high CHA as well if he sues any offensive spells. Of course, a moon druid doesn't need to worry about MAD, and then we have the extra HP.

Moon druid already has tons of advantages, stop treating the class as if it weren't a full casting class. It is. It has great melee ability for that, much like Valor bard, and the fact it avoids the MAD issues alone makes it virtually guaranteed to be better at one of the two aspects. It is balanced... unless you think valor bard needs some buffing?

That's like saying what's the point of having valor bard or eldritch knight?

Hybrid classes are fun. You get to dabble in an area that isn't your focus, and have a more well rounded ability set. You get to be a full caster who can fight in melee, even if you aren't the best melee fighter. It beats chucking cantrips.

You are a hybrid. That means playing like a hybrid, and realizing which way you lean.
A valor bard at level 12, assuming he didn't grab his first level in fighter like they all do and just grabbed shillelagh rather than blowing his points on strength:
AC 19 damage 1d8+5, 1d8+5, 1d4+5 =26.5
If he did grab fighter as his first level so he didn't have to blow a feat on resilient (constitution):
AC 20 damage 32.5
Moon druid
AC 12 damage 24

And this is an edition that gives nothing to monks, druids etc in terms of magic items - to all those who want to fight unarmed/unarmoured, the game gives a big fat **** you. The valor bard will have a magic weapon and probably other magic items by this point, and that'll be skewing it more in the bard's favour since for god knows what reason they decided to give the wisdom warriors nothing.

Spacehamster

2015-01-29, 07:08 AM

Lets give all moon druid wild shape forms a death stare attack usable once per turn as a bonus action, dc 25 con save or fall unconsious and dying. :) that would make wildshape a bit better. ^^

On a serious note one of my players are playing a moon druid and he is having a blast, altho he is more about fluff than crunch.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 07:12 AM

Lets give all moon druid wild shape forms a death stare attack usable once per turn as a bonus action, dc 25 con save or fall unconsious and dying. :) that would make wildshape a bit better. ^^

Try to miss the point harder, I want to see if you can

Spacehamster

2015-01-29, 07:17 AM

Yakk

2015-01-29, 07:18 AM

In 5e, if you shape shift into a spider, you are a spider -- not a spider sized +20 attack 200 hp anomoly with a dc 19 venom.

You are a spider.

The average L 12 foe is of CR 1/2 to 12. It does not have a +6 strength save on average: some will have a +1, and very few a +9 or better. Even if we weight by encounter impact (so 1 big monster has the weight of 3-4 small ones).

Stomp won't work on a dragon, but will pretty well on anything that isn't "strong" or a solo foe.

In 3e, character power doubles every 2 levels. So a CR 6 creature in a level 20 party is useless -- 7 doublings is x256 power ratio. In 5e, character power is far closer to linear with level, so a CR 6 creature approaches 1/3 the power of a level 20 *party*. Not quite, because it isn't really linear.

silveralen

2015-01-29, 07:38 AM

A valor bard at level 12, assuming he didn't grab his first level in fighter like they all do and just grabbed shillelagh rather than blowing his points on strength:
AC 19 damage 1d8+5, 1d8+5, 1d4+5 =26.5
If he did grab fighter as his first level so he didn't have to blow a feat on resilient (constitution):
AC 20 damage 32.5
Moon druid
AC 12 damage 24

Okay first off, Either 1d6 or 17 AC.

Moving from there, The bard has spent a feat, one of four out of class spell choices, and has maxed charisma. Oh, and possibly multiclassed.

The Druid has... hit level 12.

That's the difference. The Druid is literally operating at base effectiveness.

Also, why elephant? You have an earth elemental form. 2d8+5 twice per round is far more competitive. The AC 17 and various resistances/immunities help as well. If you really don't want to shift out of your wildshape, that'd be the one to go with.

If that same Druid took two levels of barbarian (which means he still has elemental form) he can grab advantage on every hit and hit for more damage each time. With a big HP pool and his ability to heal as a bonus action, that's a tough powerful Druid.

Don't compare crap unoptomized builds to someone using one of the best feats and a cantrip he can't even access till lvl 10 (which should head off any complaints about stifled effectiveness until the Druid hits lvl 12, that hard was apparently fighting with a 14 DEX and no feats until now, or a feat he couldn't use effectively since he didn't bother with strength)

Eslin

2015-01-29, 09:01 AM

Did not miss the point, know you also want to fix the part that makes it op at some levels and weaker at others. I was making a joke, hence the "on a serious note" part of the post. Dont see whats so bad about beeing able to disquise yourself as an animal to watch your enemies, turn into a water living animal to swim under water and so on is so bad tho. Not everything has to be about combat. :)

That's the base use. The moon subclass is about using it for combat.

In 5e, if you shape shift into a spider, you are a spider -- not a spider sized +20 attack 200 hp anomoly with a dc 19 venom.

You are a spider.

The average L 12 foe is of CR 1/2 to 12. It does not have a +6 strength save on average: some will have a +1, and very few a +9 or better. Even if we weight by encounter impact (so 1 big monster has the weight of 3-4 small ones).

Stomp won't work on a dragon, but will pretty well on anything that isn't "strong" or a solo foe.

In 3e, character power doubles every 2 levels. So a CR 6 creature in a level 20 party is useless -- 7 doublings is x256 power ratio. In 5e, character power is far closer to linear with level, so a CR 6 creature approaches 1/3 the power of a level 20 *party*. Not quite, because it isn't really linear.

It isn't though - the only choice at level 20 is the mammoth. It's just the elephant with a bit more damage, +6 on the DC, +1 AC and -1 attack. Eight levels on and you've lost 1 attack, while everyone else is attacking at +12 or more (I assume you'd have better than a +1 weapon, but we'll go low for now).

Okay first off, Either 1d6 or 17 AC.

Moving from there, The bard has spent a feat, one of four out of class spell choices, and has maxed charisma. Oh, and possibly multiclassed.

The Druid has... hit level 12.

That's the difference. The Druid is literally operating at base effectiveness.

Also, why elephant? You have an earth elemental form. 2d8+5 twice per round is far more competitive. The AC 17 and various resistances/immunities help as well. If you really don't want to shift out of your wildshape, that'd be the one to go with.

If that same Druid took two levels of barbarian (which means he still has elemental form) he can grab advantage on every hit and hit for more damage each time. With a big HP pool and his ability to heal as a bonus action, that's a tough powerful Druid.

Don't compare crap unoptomized builds to someone using one of the best feats and a cantrip he can't even access till lvl 10 (which should head off any complaints about stifled effectiveness until the Druid hits lvl 12, that hard was apparently fighting with a 14 DEX and no feats until now, or a feat he couldn't use effectively since he didn't bother with strength)
There is no optimisation for a druid. No magic items were given, and earth elemental costs both uses of wild shape. You'll also find multiclassing to a class which takes away your capstone to gain a bonus on hit is a little less good when your proficiency bonus to hitting is +2, upgrading to a massive +3 at high levels.

Kryx

2015-01-29, 09:16 AM

It isn't though - the only choice at level 20 is the mammoth.
This will surely be alleviated with MM2.

I assume you'd have better than a +1 weapon, but we'll go low for now
This is a false assumption. Many DMs (myself included) are not planning on giving out + items at all.

No magic items were given
A DM can easily make an item like amulet of mighty fists. A DM should if they're giving out magic weapons.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 09:18 AM

Looking through the wildshape feature, particularly as it applies to moon druids, WoTC screwed up pretty bad in regards to bounded accuracy. Creatures have fixed stats when it comes to AC and making attacks / using abilities.

AC can be fixed, usually by finding some sort of barding or a bracer of armor or dipping monk, but attacks can't.

I think attack bonus and DCs of abilities while shapeshifted should be based on the Druid's proficiency bonus and spell DC. A level 20 moon druid shapeshifting into a giant spider ought to have a better chance of landing attacks and a higher DC for his web than a level 2 moon druid.

In other words, I think the relative effectiveness of an option should scale with level. Druids shouldn't have to constantly seek out more and more powerful forms if they have a favored shape.

What do you guys think? I can't imagine that WoTC put much thought into this archetype because this isn't the only way in which it's broken.

I think level 20 moon druids stop using animal shapes as soon as they get access to the elemental ones.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 09:26 AM

Because the druid power arc is completely out of whack. Level 2-4 and 20 they're ridiculous, while between 5 and 19 wild shaping becomes more and more useless. Why wouldn't we instead want a more smooth power curve? I have no problem with them being less capable in combat than a fighter, but at present they're either better or a lot worse. Shouldn't we stabilise it at a fixed point?

Between 5-19 is where the majority of the powerful and useful Druid spells lie.

Perhaps in your reconfiguring of the bonuses, you remove the druid ability to spell cast entirely or reduce it down to 1/3 caster level as per EK or AT. Since you are boosting the martial aspect of Wildshape, it stands to reason you will have to weaken the other powers of the druid to keep them balanced with the rest of the progression.

As was mentioned before, the Druid is a full caster. It stands to reason that the martial focused druid (WS) tops out right about the time when their spells really come online. I disagree with changing this entirely, as most of you seem to be forgetting that the druid has other powers.

Until the discussion starts taking into account that the druid is also a spell caster of tremendous ability ON TOP of having the moon druid abilities, any suggestions you make to modifying the class will be inherently broken. You need to stop focusing on one single ability of a class and learn to see the entire picture for balance purposes.

silveralen

2015-01-29, 09:28 AM

There is no optimisation for a druid. No magic items were given, and earth elemental costs both uses of wild shape. You'll also find multiclassing to a class which takes away your capstone to gain a bonus on hit is a little less good when your proficiency bonus to hitting is +2, upgrading to a massive +3 at high levels.

Multiclassing is optimization. Not many amazing feats which is the biggest problem, remove polearm master from the equation and it evens out (not that your hypothetical bard is in anyway viable for the majority of his playtime).

Earth Elemental form has how many HP again? Supplemented with how much healing from burning spell slots? If it doesn't last the time between short rests most other classes would be every bit as screwed, if not more.

Seriously, I don't see any issue. Ahead in toughness, behind in damage. Seems fine. Sorry if you dislike being a tankier class, over a damage dealer.

Person_Man

2015-01-29, 09:28 AM

Although I would have preferred a Pathfinder-like implementation, I think 5E Wildshape works mostly fine as is for now.

1) Druids are full casters with a solid spell list. Wildshape is a side side benefit abilities gained by other full castes, like Metamagic.

2) Moon Druid subclass does improve it substantially, especially at low-levels. But its still just a set of subclass abilities, akin to Domain Powers.

3) Even though its not great at improving your damage and AC, it gives you a ton of hit points, which is a very big deal. It also gives you great utility options. Climb, Fly, Swim, breath water, superior movement speeds, Beast special abilities, etc. For example, a Druid can cast Pass Without Trace, Wildshape into a rat or whatever, and then go scouting. The chances that you'll fail a Stealth check is very low, and even if you do, the enemies just see a rat and discount your presence.

4) There will be additional Beasts published in supplements. Its inevitable. The power of Wildshape is open ended by definition (which I think is a huge design mistake), so its only going to get better as more books are published.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 09:32 AM

Multiclassing is optimization. Not many amazing feats which is the biggest problem, remove polearm master from the equation and it evens out (not that your hypothetical bard is in anyway viable for the majority of his playtime).

Earth Elemental form has how many HP again? Supplemented with how much healing from burning spell slots? If it doesn't last the time between short rests most other classes would be every bit as screwed, if not more.

Seriously, I don't see any issue. Ahead in toughness, behind in damage. Seems fine. Sorry if you dislike being a tankier class, over a damage dealer.

Except the general agreement is fix the early and late stuff by getting rid of the hp replacement. That's what this is in the context of. How is the druid tankier?

silveralen

2015-01-29, 09:38 AM

Except the general agreement is fix the early and late stuff by getting rid of the hp replacement. That's what this is in the context of. How is the druid tankier?

Heal with a bonus action? Resistance to damage while shifted? Being able to use the best of all possible saves?

If you remove the free hp, just remove the restriction on shifting per short rest. No reason for it to be there. Then they can mix spells into their wild shaping better.

Full casters who don't cast spells should be mediocre at best, and wildshape druid still beats the cantrips from most spellcasters. That's just how it works. So either they stop being a full caster or they have to burn spells to reach the same level of effectiveness as say a fighter.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 09:43 AM

Except the general agreement is fix the early and late stuff by getting rid of the hp replacement. That's what this is in the context of. How is the druid tankier?

This doesn't need to be fixed. It isn't broken. There are plenty of ways to deal with a moon druid that HP is not related too.

Wildshape does not need to be modified, as it is only one part of the druid tool set. If you modify it to satisfy some notion that its is somehow unbalanced you need to understand you are doing so devoid of the other abilities of the druid, which were calculated by the developers when figuring out what WS is capable of.

Broken Twin

2015-01-29, 09:58 AM

Considering how much the conversation is being dominated by the moon druid's frontline combat potential, I have to ask: isn't a large part of being a shapeshifter being the utility it offers? Flying as a bird, swimming as a fish, burrowing as a... mole, I guess? Expecting the druid to be able to use a single class feature to go toe to toe with the fighter seems a bit unbalanced, no matter how you look at it. It would be CoDzilla all over again.

Kryx

2015-01-29, 09:59 AM

the general agreement is fix the early and late stuff by getting rid of the hp replacement.

Removing hp replacement is not a general agreement. It's a horrendous nerf to put a melee focused class in the front lines with 13 or less AC with the same default HP.

Demonic Spoon

2015-01-29, 10:00 AM

Removing hp replacement is not a general agreement. It's a horrendous nerf to put a melee focused class in the front lines with 13 or less AC with the same default HP.

Moon druid is not a melee-focused class any more than the EK is a dedicated mage.

Kryx

2015-01-29, 10:02 AM

Moon druid is not a melee-focused class any more than the EK is a dedicated mage.

Right, they'll sit back in ape form and throw rocks. Might as well not have shifted in the first place.

Demonic Spoon

2015-01-29, 10:04 AM

Right, they'll sit back in ape form and throw rocks. Might as well not have shifted in the first place.

Just like the EK subclass is useless because an EK sitting in the back and casting spells isn't as good as a wizard, right?

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 10:04 AM

Removing hp replacement is not a general agreement. It's a horrendous nerf to put a melee focused class in the front lines with 13 or less AC with the same default HP.

The AC wouldn't have to be low.
As it stands the suggestion involves the following changes:
1. Get rid of the Wildshape bonus HP (Have the Druid's HP be constant regardless of the form).
2. Have the Wildshape use the Druid's spell to-hit as its to-hit unless its to-hit is already higher.
3. Have the Druid's merged equipment still be usable while Wildshaped (So the Druid's AC would apply).
4. Remove the 2 Wildshape per rest limitation.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 10:10 AM

The AC wouldn't have to be low.
As it stands the suggestion involves the following changes:
1. Get rid of the Wildshape bonus HP (Have the Druid's HP be constant regardless of the form).
2. Have the Wildshape use the Druid's spell to-hit as its to-hit unless its to-hit is already higher.
3. Have the Druid's merged equipment still be usable while Wildshaped (So the Druid's AC would apply).
4. Remove the 2 Wildshape per rest limitation.

All of these suggestion are broken. I will say again...

Full Caster.

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 10:18 AM

All of these suggestion are broken. I will say again...

Full Caster.

Those suggestions are a nerf to everything but Druid utility.
In canon a Druid has the ability to be a crappy Fighter substitute and then a full caster without sacrificing anything. The proposed changes would give the Druid the ability to be either a crappy Fighter substitute (Although a much better one than in canon) or a full caster. The changes reduce the Druid's power by forcing him to make a choice rather than stack the powers on top of one another. In compensation for that he gains the ability to Wildshape infinitely and all of the utility that brings to the table; and more importantly the fun which Wildshaping brings. In canon, that fun isn't really realized until level 20 due to the Wildshapes needing to be saved for more important uses and denying all of the frivolity.
The suggestions aren't broken, they reduce the Druid's power to be more in line with the other classes (And fix issues which certainly are broken such as the capstone ability) while increasing the potential enjoyment and uniqueness of the class.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 10:29 AM

Those suggestions are a nerf to everything but Druid utility.

1. Get rid of the Wildshape bonus HP (Have the Druid's HP be constant regardless of the form).

Bolded for emphasis by me.

Since most of the WS forms have "less" Hp the the druid's normal form, allowing them their normal HP total is nerfing it how? I suppose at best, this is just a change, it neither benefits or subtracts from the ability.

2. Have the Wildshape use the Druid's spell to-hit as its to-hit unless its to-hit is already higher.

So the druid gets +11 on all attacks, 2-3 times per round, only slightly less impressive than the fighter? (Not worried about magic items as they are not considered the norm) This is nerfed how?

3. Have the Druid's merged equipment still be usable while Wildshaped (So the Druid's AC would apply).

Which reduces the damage they take, which in turn removes the forced reversion mechanic, which in turn removes one of the weaknesses of WS. This is nerfed how?

4. Remove the 2 Wildshape per rest limitation.

How does removing a limitation that is reserved for level 20 a nerf to their wildshape ability?

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 10:40 AM

Since most of the WS forms have "less" Hp the the druid's normal form, allowing them their normal HP total is nerfing it how? I suppose at best, this is just a change, it neither benefits or subtracts from the ability.
Canon Druids have Druid HP +2x Wildshape HP. the proposed change reduces that to nothing but Druid HP. In no way shape or form could a reduction in a valuable resource (In this case HP) be considered anything but a nerf.

So the druid gets +11 on all attacks, 2-3 times per round, only slightly less impressive than the fighter? (Not worried about magic items as they are not considered the norm) This is nerfed how?
2 Times per round which is half as impressive as the Fighter unless the Fighter is using something that gives him a bonus attack. In that case it is 2/5ths as impressive as a Fighter.
It in itself isn't a nerf as it is more powerful than canon but the fact that previously the Druid could Wildshape, do damage and then act as a Druid without having expended any of his non-Wildshape resources and now his Wildshape time comes at the expense of his own HP, it very much is a nerf. In fact, it isn't so different to a canon Druid that somehow has Wildshape erased from his character sheet - that never Wildshaping Druid would have that same +11 to-hit via Shillelagh with the same HP and the same AC. The only difference is Wildshape rider effects vs Feat rider effects.

Which reduces the damage they take, which in turn removes the forced reversion mechanic, which in turn removes one of the weaknesses of WS. This is nerfed how?
Again you are ignoring the suggestion's single pool of HP rather than the canon's double or triple pools. A Wildshaped Druid that retains his regular AC and regular HP has the exact same defenses as a Druid that never Wildshaped at all. It is a nerf because the canon Druid that has Wildshape and then his regular AC and HP is always going to be superior to the Druid that ONLY has his regular AC and HP.

How does removing a limitation that is reserved for level 20 a nerf to their wildshape ability?
It isn't. It is the utility buff I mentioned that serves to both increase the fun-factor of the class as well as act as compensation for the nerfs.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 10:55 AM

Canon Druids have Druid HP +2x Wildshape HP. the proposed change reduces that to nothing but Druid HP. In no way shape or form could a reduction in a valuable resource (In this case HP) be considered anything but a nerf.

Are we talking about the same druid here? Wildshape HP replaces the druid's normal hit points. It isn't tacked on. Unless for some reason you seem to think that the Druid's original hit points are included in any HP calculation using his wildshape. The replacement renders him suseptible to spells and effects he would ignore in his uninjured normal HP total. You are proposing removing that weakness.

2 Times per round which is half as impressive as the Fighter unless the Fighter is using something that gives him a bonus attack. In that case it is 2/5ths as impressive as a Fighter.
It in itself isn't a nerf as it is more powerful than canon but the fact that previously the Druid could Wildshape, do damage and then act as a Druid without having expended any of his non-Wildshape resources and now his Wildshape time comes at the expense of his own HP, it very much is a nerf. In fact, it isn't so different to a canon Druid that somehow has Wildshape erased from his character sheet - that never Wildshaping Druid would have that same +11 to-hit via Shillelagh with the same HP and the same AC. The only difference is Wildshape rider effects vs Feat rider effects.

What? Ok, the Druid gets between 2-3 attacks per round depending on his WS. So ideally he will go with 3 attacks per round (just shy of the 4 the fighter gets) at the equivocally the same attack bonus circumventing the attack bonus of the form he chose. So he gets to step up, beat on monsters for however many rounds he maintains the form, loses it, does it again, loses it again and then steps back and uses his untouched full caster resources. Where is the nerf?

Again you are ignoring the suggestion's single pool of HP rather than the canon's double or triple pools. A Wildshaped Druid that retains his regular AC and regular HP has the exact same defenses as a Druid that never Wildshaped at all. It is a nerf because the canon Druid that has Wildshape and then his regular AC and HP is always going to be superior to the Druid that ONLY has his regular AC and HP.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm analyzing each individual thing as its own thing. I'm not combining suggestion one and two. If you wanted suggestion one and two to be considered together, then state so. Otherwise, I'm looking at the AC bonus as the AC bonus, not AC bonus + Druids initial HP. That being said, there is a spell that covers that. It's called Alter self, and the Druid already has it on his list I believe.

It isn't. It is the utility buff I mentioned that serves to both increase the fun-factor of the class as well as act as compensation for the nerfs.

Granting the capstone to a character at any level other than max (especially this one) is not a nerf its flat out power gaming and is grossly imbalanced. Even if you stacked all of these suggestions together, it would STILL be broken.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 11:01 AM

{scrubbed}

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 11:04 AM

{scrubbed}

I understand perfectly what Giant is saying. He is saying that the complete total of Druid HP is their base HP + WS HP + WS HP. Perhaps he isn't understanding the point I am trying to make. Perhaps neither are you.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 11:06 AM

I understand perfectly what Giant is saying. He is saying that the complete total of Druid HP is their base HP + WS HP + WS HP. Perhaps he isn't understanding the point I am trying to make. Perhaps neither are you.

What point? We established that druid HP = druid base HP as the very first change. That was our starting point. Personally I'd consider adding monsterHP-druidHP temporary HP if they transform, but that might be a little complicated.

Easy_Lee

2015-01-29, 11:07 AM

4) There will be additional Beasts published in supplements. Its inevitable. The power of Wildshape is open ended by definition (which I think is a huge design mistake), so its only going to get better as more books are published.

I agree with this, but take issue with four things concerning wildshape:

It's inconsistent. Certain forms are good at certain levels, but the total lack of scaling means that your low level forms are largely irrelevant at high levels. This applies not only to combat, but skills as well since levels of beast skills don't scale with your proficiency
It depends totally on the DM to give the player useful forms. We can talk about how useful mammoths and air elementals are, but now often do you encounter them? They're aren't exactly common in the FR books I've read, and I doubt a druid is going to be able to just ditch the party for a few months while he/she goes and finds one
It is totally separate from all of the Druid's other features. The druid's wisdom and spells not only don't affect the beast forms, but can't even be used while shifted until 18.
Taking three times as long to kill is stupid.

I've found a fix for #4 via stunning the Druid when they die in a form, which makes the Druid killable no matter how many wildshapes they have. #1 and #3 are fixed through scaling attack and DCs, mostly, though I also had to prohibit multiattack until 5 because Brown bear. #2 I can fix since I'm DM, though it wouldn't be a problem if not for the lack of scaling forms.

The damage is a real problem because druids have a very good chance of outdamaging rangers and even fighters at certain levels, mostly 2-5 and 18+. That said, moon druids feel like an inconsistent multiclass otherwise, with power spikes and lapses. That's not good.

Yes, druids are full casters. But so are dragon sorcerers and, to a degree, blade pact warlocks. Both of those can match or beat a fighter's damage with the right setup; for the sorcerer it's easy. Even bards can pull some tricks with find steed or swift quiver to pull ahead. So I'm not as worried about inconsistent damage potential of druids, full casting or not.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 11:14 AM

What point? We established that druid HP = druid base HP as the very first change. That was our starting point. Personally I'd consider adding monsterHP-druidHP temporary HP if they transform, but that might be a little complicated.

My ultimate point is that the whole thing isn't broken. Why are you trying to fix it? It spikes usefulness (by form) intentionally to ensure that the druid doesn't rely on it soley.

The same belief that an EK standing back and casting spells. While it can be done (and effectively) he still has other things he can do, and should.

If you are going to change WS in any way, realize that it will empower the other abilities of the druid as well. If you make WS scale, then what you end up with is effectively a 20th level fighter/20th level druid. Two classes for one. How is that not broken?

I suppose you could argue that a Moon druid wont rely on spells, but that is neither here nor there, he still has them doesn't he? He is dealing equivalent damage of a fighter in WS and equivalent utility of a full caster when hes not. How can you not see this??

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 11:14 AM

Are we talking about the same druid here? Wildshape HP replaces the druid's normal hit points. It isn't tacked on. Unless for some reason you seem to think that the Druid's original hit points are included in any HP calculation using his wildshape. The replacement renders him suseptible to spells and effects he would ignore in his uninjured normal HP total. You are proposing removing that weakness.
If a Druid in canon uses both his Wildshapes, each of which have 50 HP and his regular HP which as an example would be 160, it would take a minimum of 260 damage to knock him out. With the proposed changes, it would take a minimum of 160 damage to knock him out, hence the nerf. IThe nerf is even more noticable at level 20 when you compare infinity HP with 200-ish.

What? Ok, the Druid gets between 2-3 attacks per round depending on his WS. So ideally he will go with 3 attacks per round (just shy of the 4 the fighter gets) at the equivocally the same attack bonus circumventing the attack bonus of the form he chose. So he gets to step up, beat on monsters for however many rounds he maintains the form, loses it, does it again, loses it again and then steps back and uses his untouched full caster resources. Where is the nerf?
There are no potential Wildshapes that have more than two attacks per round and as best I can tell, there is no way for a Druid to get a bonus attack (without multiclassing) while Wildshaped. That second part isn't the suggestion at all and I think it highlights why you are having trouble seeing this proposal for what it is. There is no losing the form and then doing it again and stepping back with full caster resources - the suggestion does away with that by using only the one pool of HP. If the Wildshape's HP is depleted he isn't coming back as a Druid, he is coming back as either a corpse or a coma patient. That there is basically the crux of the nerf, it reduces the Druid's survivability considerably.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm analyzing each individual thing as its own thing. I'm not combining suggestion one and two. If you wanted suggestion one and two to be considered together, then state so. Otherwise, I'm looking at the AC bonus as the AC bonus, not AC bonus + Druids initial HP. That being said, there is a spell that covers that. It's called Alter self, and the Druid already has it on his list I believe.
Sure... Ignore parts of the suggestion so you can focus on an incomplete package if you wish. It doesn't change the fact that under the proposal, the Druid's defenses while wildshaped would be exactly the same as his defenses while not wildshaped and effectively removing the extra layer of protection that comes with the default wildshape. What it does do however is add that extra element of humor to the thread via the irony instilled by the same person that berated others for not looking at the Druid as a complete package earlier, refusing to acknowledge the entire proposal as a single package.

Granting the capstone to a character at any level other than max (especially this one) is not a nerf its flat out power gaming and is grossly imbalanced. Even if you stacked all of these suggestions together, it would STILL be broken.
If you look at all of the early threads concerning Druids on this forum, you will quickly see that the main benefit of the Driud capstone is infinite HP. The suggestions don't give the Druid at a level other than max, it removes that horribly broken feature from the game entirely.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 11:17 AM

My ultimate point is that the whole thing isn't broken. Why are you trying to fix it? It spikes usefulness (by form) intentionally to ensure that the druid doesn't rely on it soley.

The same belief that an EK standing back and casting spells. While it can be done (and effectively) he still has other things he can do, and should.

If you are going to change WS in any way, realize that it will empower the other abilities of the druid as well. If you make WS scale, then what you end up with is effectively a 20th level fighter/20th level druid. Two classes for one. How is that not broken?

That doesn't make any sense. No other class feature randomly spikes in different levels - the game isn't balanced like that, if they want a druid to not rely solely on wild shape they balance it so that wild shape isn't their optimal solution to everything they don't make it arbitrarily fluctuate in power based on level.

Yagyujubei

2015-01-29, 11:19 AM

Giant2005

2015-01-29, 11:26 AM

If you make WS scale, then what you end up with is effectively a 20th level fighter/20th level druid. Two classes for one. How is that not broken?

That issue is one of the many things that the proposal will change.
Right now in canon the Wildshaped Druid is about the equivalent of a level 8ish subclassless Ranger as well as a level 17 Druid (Went with 17 because the capstone really messes up the math - at 20 the Druid is more the equivalent of a level infinity Ranger as well as 20 Druid). The proposal however would change it so that the Wildshaped Druid has the choice of being the equivalent of a level 17 subclassless Ranger OR a level 17 Druid. He could no longer do both one after the other. Effectively, in the above example the Druid has been reduced the equivalent of 8 levels worth of power.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 11:30 AM

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 11:32 AM

If a Druid in canon uses both his Wildshapes, each of which have 50 HP and his regular HP which as an example would be 160, it would take a minimum of 260 damage to knock him out. With the proposed changes, it would take a minimum of 160 damage to knock him out, hence the nerf. IThe nerf is even more noticable at level 20 when you compare infinity HP with 200-ish.

*shakes head* Ok... I understand what you are saying. I do. But he doesn't actually have 160 hp. He has only the hp of the form he is in. I understand your logic, if he has only one hp pool, then it doesn't rotate over and over as he changes forms. Again... while certainly annoying from a DM standpoint, I don't think this is actually broken, as previous threads point out. Killing a druid dead is no more difficult than killing anyone else. You just have to use the right tools for the job. Damage is NOT that tool.

There is no losing the form and then doing it again and stepping back with full caster resources - the suggestion does away with that by using only the one pool of HP.

The hp pool is to account for the fact that the druid gets hit all the time. Which is why you are proposing the AC adjustment, given the one hp pool.

What it does do however is add that extra element of humor to the thread via the irony instilled by the same person that berated others for not looking at the Druid as a complete package earlier.

Perhaps I took your suggestions as individual because it was not clearly defined by you. This could be a comment about your writing style, or an observation based on the general approach by the posters as a whole targeting single things at a time.

If you look at all of the early threads concerning Druids on this forum, you will quickly see that the main benefit of the Driud capstone is infinite HP. The suggestions don't give the Druid at a level other than max, it removes that horribly broken feature from the game entirely.

So am I to understand that you want to grant them unlimited forms, using (essentially) lower HP pools, and remove what replaced their traditional wildshape healing mechanic? I suppose that could work as long as everyone is a moon druid and can blow spell levels on healing themself while in wildshape. Sucks big time for every other kind of druid.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 11:33 AM

Eslin

2015-01-29, 11:33 AM

So am I to understand that you want to grant them unlimited forms, using (essentially) lower HP pools, and remove what replaced their traditional wildshape healing mechanic? I suppose that could work as long as everyone is a moon druid and can blow spell levels on healing themself while in wildshape. Sucks big time for every other kind of druid.

It already does suck for every other kind of druid. Land druids get nothing useful from the capstone.

Edit: Hey while you guys at it how do you guys feel about druids turning into swarms?

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 11:38 AM

It already does suck for every other kind of druid. Land druids get nothing useful from the capstone.

I disagree. Do you mean to say they don't get anything that boosts their spellcasting at level 20?

Swarms:

I think this is a cool idea. resistance to weapon damage, double damage from AoE. Sounds good to me. I'd require a WIS check everytime the form was assumed due to having to control thousands of X instead of one body though.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 11:41 AM

I disagree. Do you mean to say they don't get anything that boosts their spellcasting at level 20?

I mean to say that one type of druid has a subclass that focuses exclusively on making their wild shape more useful and the other doesn't, but both get unlimited wild shape. That's gonna be a lot more useful to one subclass than the other, can you guess which?

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 11:46 AM

I mean to say that one type of druid has a subclass that focuses exclusively on making their wild shape more useful and the other doesn't, but both get unlimited wild shape. That's gonna be a lot more useful to one subclass than the other, can you guess which?

Doesn't more useful by nature still mean it's base is still useful? And thus not useless as you said?

Easy_Lee

2015-01-29, 11:49 AM

tl;dr all these long winded posts but my 2 cents:

adding the druid PB on top of the animal is all that you should get. regardless of whether the druid shapechanging is 2 or 20, a spider is still a spider. the whole point of allowing higher CR creatures is that higher level druids can become a Giant Spider, or a Phase Spider, or any number of stronger versions of a spider.

but at the end of the say, a CR 1/4 spider will always be a CR 1/4 spider.

This is basically what I'm saying. A spider is still a spider, but a more experienced druid is still able to use his own experience when making attacks and using abilities of his new form. A level 20 druid making an attack should have a better chance of that attack landing than a 2 druid, though there's no reason the attack needs to hurt more for a given form.

I will say that I think using proficiency bonus is fine for most forms, but breaks with some. The mammoth has 24 strength, meaning its bonus goes from +10 to +13 if we calculate to hit with its strength and the Druid's proficiency. And not everyone likes to calculate things up, or keep track of lots of numbers, which is why I suggested just using spell attack for simple consistency.

Using the Druid's native spell DC makes sense to me too, again because of the mammoth. It has a very similar action to the panther, but its DC is higher. I think all of a druid's animal abilities should have the same DC for the sake of consistency, not having to keep track of lots of numbers, and letting the Druid get better at using them as he/she levels.

Eslin

2015-01-29, 11:52 AM

Doesn't more useful by nature still mean it's base is still useful? And thus not useless as you said?

Mild exaggeration. Land druids at high levels rarely have occasion to use wild shape very often, it has no more utility than it did ten levels ago. It's useful for hiding or scouting sometimes, but those times are very seldom often enough that they find themselves wishing they could exceed the 2/short rest limit. They gain very little from their capstone, and from the game in which I had a 20 land druid playing I observe that the difference is small enough that it is indistinguishable from useless.

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-29, 11:56 AM

Right, they'll sit back in ape form and throw rocks. Might as well not have shifted in the first place.

Throw feces instead, Con Save (DC 8+Prof+Ape's Con Modifier) or be poisoned for one round (or until someone washes it off).

All of these suggestion are broken. I will say again...

Full Caster.

People keep forgetting this.

I played in a one shot where I used my Monk 2/Druid 18 to fly around (air elemental picked up my druid focus quarterstaff) and use Thorn Whip for 4d6 Piercing Damage + 1d6 bludgeoning falling damage (pulled them straight up) and making them become prone.

That was just my basic attack style for the lolz. If things got a bit scary I would use my level 8 slot to cast Conjure Minor Elemental... 6 CR2 elementals work quite well when you wanna gang up on a BBEG or cast a spell "wall of elementals" :p (for this you use lower cr creatures to get 24 1/4 CR creatures). Wall of elemental has saved my group quite a few times in one shot (we did a 12 hour binge) by cutting off enemies from my allies.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 11:59 AM

Mild exaggeration. Land druids at high levels rarely have occasion to use wild shape very often, it has no more utility than it did ten levels ago. It's useful for hiding or scouting sometimes, but those times are very seldom often enough that they find themselves wishing they could exceed the 2/short rest limit. They gain very little from their capstone, and from the game in which I had a 20 land druid playing I observe that the difference is small enough that it is indistinguishable from useless.

You're experience was vastly different than mine I see. Our 20th land druid abused his wildshaping for all it was worth. He used it for battlefield maneuverability of unprecedented supremacy, stealth attacks on fortifications, spying, ambushing, attempting to convince all the animals of the area to join in a major battle, hiding from enemies, escaping cages, using the HP to recover from grievous injury and escape battle, and many other uses. These were just the ones that came to mind.

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-29, 12:07 PM

Bubblestorm

2015-01-29, 12:09 PM

All of these suggestion are broken. I will say again...

Full Caster.

Ok then lets sort that.

Moon Druid with the following alterations.
Wildshape progression slowed by one step
lvl 2- 1/2CR
lvl 4 - 1CR
Wildshape charges recharge on a long rest

Feral Druid

Lose access to primal strike, elemental wildshape and thousand forms.
When you select the archetype at level two you can no longer cast spells.
When you select this archetype you must select any one "favored form" (A beast with a maximum CR of 1/2).
If your favored form Hp reaches 0, you cannot turn into that creature again until you finish a long rest.
Whenever you land the killing blow on an enemy while in human form you immediately regain one expended use of wildshape.

Wild Strikes

Whenever you hit a melee attack in your human form and immediately use your bonus action to wildshape into one of your favored forms you may make an
additional attack using that beasts statistics but using 1d6 as damage. This damage increases to 2d6 at level 6 and 3d6 at level 10.
Alternatively if you hit an melee attack while shifted into one of your favored forms and immediately revert to your human form, you may
take the disengage ability as a free action.

Favored form
Apart from level 1, to select a favored form you must expend an action physically touching the live creature.

At level 2 Whenever you are shifted into a favored form you gain AC and HP equal to your Proficiency bonus.

At level 6 You may include another creature in your favored forms that you are able to shift into.
You can also add your proficiency bonus to the all of your favored forms Strength OR Dexterity
You may use Wildshape up to 3 times per day.

At level 10 You can also add your proficiency bonus to the all of your favored forms Strength OR Dexterity
You may use Wildshape up to 4 times per day.

At level 14 You may include another creature in your favored forms that you are able to shift into.
You can also add your proficiency bonus to the all of your favored forms Constitution.
Add your proficiency bonus to any DC saves enemies make against your favored beasts abilities.

Easy_Lee

2015-01-29, 12:11 PM

You're experience was vastly different than mine I see. Our 20th land druid abused his wildshaping for all it was worth. He used it for battlefield maneuverability of unprecedented supremacy, stealth attacks on fortifications, spying, ambushing, attempting to convince all the animals of the area to join in a major battle, hiding from enemies, escaping cages, using the HP to recover from grievous injury and escape battle, and many other uses. These were just the ones that came to mind.

There's no doubt that infinite shapeshift is a problem, which is why you solve that first. I can think of two simple fixes:

Use one hp pool for all forms - I don't like this because druids don't have the HP progression to be on the front lines, particularly not with the generally low AC of beasts.
Penalize the druid for dying while shifted - I prefer this method. Stunning the Druid for a round does the trick, because getting stunned really sucks. Saying the Druid can't wildshape again for rounds equal to the shape's CR rounded up, or making them fall unconscious when they die in a form, would also do it.

I'm trying to find ways to make the moon druid act like everyone else in the party, and so far these kinds of changes have worked just fine.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 12:16 PM

There's no doubt that infinite shapeshift is a problem, which is why you solve that first. I can think of two simple fixes:

Use one hp pool for all forms - I don't like this because druids don't have the HP progression to be on the front lines, particularly not with the generally low AC of beasts.
Penalize the druid for dying while shifted - I prefer this method. Stunning the Druid for a round does the trick, because getting stunned really sucks. Saying the Druid can't wildshape again for rounds equal to the shape's CR rounded up, or making them fall unconscious when they die in a form, would also do it.

I'm trying to find ways to make the moon druid act like everyone else in the party, and so far these kinds of changes have worked just fine.

I like the stun option. I also liked the option of they can't assume the same form again until the rest.

As far as acting like everyone else: I think part of the appeal is that it IS different than everyone else.

silveralen

2015-01-29, 12:32 PM

That doesn't make any sense. No other class feature randomly spikes in different levels - the game isn't balanced like that, if they want a druid to not rely solely on wild shape they balance it so that wild shape isn't their optimal solution to everything they don't make it arbitrarily fluctuate in power based on level.

Such as making the damage of the form not that impressive, encouraging druids to use spells to supplement it? Especially for larger fights where they wouldn't want at will damage alone?

They tried that, people just complain that moon druid sometimes has to rely on something other than wildshape alone.

Person_Man

2015-01-29, 12:41 PM

Demonic Spoon

2015-01-29, 12:43 PM

With regards to the wider question:

I don't object to allowing weaker forms to scale somewhat given the lack of higher-CR beasts, but I'm leery of jacking up their versatility that much. I wish that druids had a little more flexibility in the kind of creatures they could wildshape into, but had to pick a specific set that they could shift into. Lower CR forms would get some scaling mechanism, and higher CR forms would open up as the druid gained levels. This way, you could allow the druid to wildshape into a greater variety of forms without breaking balance and opening them up to every new creature that came out in a future monster manual.

Fwiffo86

2015-01-29, 12:44 PM

silveralen

2015-01-29, 12:53 PM

Let us also consider the wider implications of such changes, especially with an eye towards future animal forms.

1. Druids wildshape based on CR.

2. CR can be influenced by many things, but the key aspects are armor class/HP (defensive) and attack bonus/damage per round/save DC.

3. This change effectively removes half of the factors that go into CR (HP, attack bonus, save DC) but the other half are not.

4. If we were to do this, and a low HP, high AC or low attack bonus high damage animal were to be added, it would be far more powerful a form for a druid than it should be, as the negative factors aren't actually negative factors anymore. The CR is being artificially lowered by traits which are irrelevant to the druid.

Thus, trying to pick and choose aspects of the animal to carry over is a bad idea. Either everything applies, or rework wildshape from absolute scratch so it has nothing to do with CR. Ignoring some of the factors is an awful idea.

Plus the fact CoDzilla is an awful thing to try and force back into 5e.

Theodoxus

2015-01-29, 06:28 PM

So when considering class balance, I think that its important to consider the fact that cantrip scales automatically with your class level, but weapon damage does not.

Full casters get auto-scaling cantrips, class abilities (a few of which might improve cantrips), plus they get a full selection of spells, some of which can be used to increase their damage output. Similarly, Wildshape just auto-scales with your Druid level. (Although it is noteworthy that you do need to keep taking Druid levels, and not just any class level, the point is that your Wildshape progresses while you continue to get additional spells and other abilities).

In contrast, non-full casters typically deal more damage with their weapons, but only because 1/3 to 1/2-ish of their class abilities are dedicated to improving their damage output. (Fighting Style, more Ability Score Increases/Feats, Extra Attack, Sneak Attack, Smite, etc). They only get 1/3 or 1/2 spellcasting (or none at all), some of which can add to their damage further.

So I don't think that full casters should be able to damage comparable to non-full casters, regardless of their setup, because full casters have so many other awesome things that they can do that non-full casters can't do.

I would go a step further and say that in my ideal 6E D&D, each class should be have clearly designated roles regarding what they are best at, while still maintaining a basic level of competence in other roles. (Ie, incorporating the lessons learned from 4E, without abandoning the traditions behind 1E/2E/3E/5E). I dislike the overly convoluted Venn Diagram class design of 3E/5E that assumes every class should be able to be built to fill any role. If you think any character should be able to be built in any way, you should just use a generic character creation system, and not a class based system.

Conversely, if you want to have every class with the balanced damage output, why even go through the trouble of having different elaborate simulationist methodologies of dealing damage? Wouldn't it make more sense just to just come up with a reasonable level based formula, and leave the fluff as to how its dealt up to the players? I'm sure we could come up with a nice balanced Excel spreadsheet, with trade-offs for number of attacks vs damage vs special effects (range, AC bonus from shield, bonus critical damage, etc), and then just let every player choose their preferred outcome in a more straightforward manner.

Couple things of note - 1) I do feel that the 4th Ed way of class niches is preferred, though it does tend to push towards the MMO feel that people complained about (coupling niche with the at-will/encounter/daily powers is what actually did it - but I digress). While it wouldn't be difficult to tune 5th ed classes in that direction; defining each class into it's niche will be like herding cats. Some will feel the Barbarian should be a striker, while others will look at it's high HP, AC and DR and say 'defender plox!' Each class can be pulled in a couple directions like that; though I suppose making Sorcerer a non-striker would be a stretch.

2) Regarding the druid specifically, I really wish Mearls & Co had taken a page from the 3.5 PHBII and went with Shapeshifting. Grant the druid a generic form or 4, as they level, with a small range of abilities they can choose from to create their chimera from. Have the base damage be a die less than a comparable fighter, remove the onion effect, but grant a small heal when changing back to hominid - maybe 1d6+druid level; Action to change form; bonus action to forego the healing. Allow casting of a spell if changing back as a bonus action.

Basic Shapeshifting for druids, an empowered version for Moons. Shouldn't be hard to generate a list of comparable powers/abilities/rider effects to create your generic beast. Isn't affected by MM bloat; future feats might offer better options though... might have to write something up as a homebrew.

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-29, 06:49 PM

Couple things of note - 1) I do feel that the 4th Ed way of class niches is preferred, though it does tend to push towards the MMO feel that people complained about (coupling niche with the at-will/encounter/daily powers is what actually did it - but I digress). While it wouldn't be difficult to tune 5th ed classes in that direction; defining each class into it's niche will be like herding cats. Some will feel the Barbarian should be a striker, while others will look at it's high HP, AC and DR and say 'defender plox!' Each class can be pulled in a couple directions like that; though I suppose making Sorcerer a non-striker would be a stretch.

2) Regarding the druid specifically, I really wish Mearls & Co had taken a page from the 3.5 PHBII and went with Shapeshifting. Grant the druid a generic form or 4, as they level, with a small range of abilities they can choose from to create their chimera from. Have the base damage be a die less than a comparable fighter, remove the onion effect, but grant a small heal when changing back to hominid - maybe 1d6+druid level; Action to change form; bonus action to forego the healing. Allow casting of a spell if changing back as a bonus action.

Basic Shapeshifting for druids, an empowered version for Moons. Shouldn't be hard to generate a list of comparable powers/abilities/rider effects to create your generic beast. Isn't affected by MM bloat; future feats might offer better options though... might have to write something up as a homebrew.

Hmmmm

Why not set up a wildshape ability based on Pathfinder's Eidolon. Which is really just a build your own monster and all.

You could have a list of monster abilities with level requirements. At certain levels you can gain stuff like pounce or flying forms.

Base Forms (examples)

Bipeds (Apes, Elementals)
Quadrapeds (Cats, Dogs, elephanta)
Winged (Bats, Bids)

Size start with small or medium... Then go with large and tiny.

You can gain temp HP from shifting. 1d4 + X , 1d6 + X, 1d8 + X, and then finally 1d10+X temp HP based on level. This instead of the normal HP rules.

Keep the #wildshapes per day but that is how many forms you can prepare each long rest. You prepare forms when you meditate. Anything toooo wild and nature (DM) will say "No".

Theodoxus

2015-01-29, 06:58 PM

Keep the #wildshapes per day but that is how many forms you can prepare each long rest. You prepare forms when you meditate. Anything toooo wild and nature (DM) will say "No".

I like everything you suggested - but this, I wanted to comment on. I'm assuming you allow unlimited wildshapes between the forms you've prepared.

The only thing I'd add would be locking out a form you're in if you're knocked unconscious. That way, the druid isn't trying to front line unless they're ready to lose access to their tanking form. (Though I suppose having multiple copies of the same form prepared would mitigate it somewhat)

Anyway, yes - I like this idea a lot.

ETA - Any idea what a new capstone might be? Probably something that would affect both subclasses equally...

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-29, 07:49 PM

I like everything you suggested - but this, I wanted to comment on. I'm assuming you allow unlimited wildshapes between the forms you've prepared.

The only thing I'd add would be locking out a form you're in if you're knocked unconscious. That way, the druid isn't trying to front line unless they're ready to lose access to their tanking form. (Though I suppose having multiple copies of the same form prepared would mitigate it somewhat)

Anyway, yes - I like this idea a lot.

ETA - Any idea what a new capstone might be? Probably something that would affect both subclasses equally...

Thanks. I actually was looking at some old homebrew where I did this with the 3.P druid and was all "wait why don't I do this with the 5e druid?".

The idea is that you can create two forms to start off with. Most likely a biped and quadraped form (or two of one kind). One might be a wolf and the other a horse to get out of dodge. As you level you will gain access to a third form. This could be an aquatic or flying form.

This shows your connection with nature is becoming stronger.

You can't change from one form to another, you always have to go back to your original form.

Level 20 capstone? You may switch from form to form instead of reverting back. Your temp HP resets only if you go from normal form to beast/elemental form.

Also land druids can turn into fire and earth elementals. Moon druids can turn into air and water elementals.

Xetheral

2015-01-30, 11:22 AM

Conversely, if you want to have every class with the balanced damage output, why even go through the trouble of having different elaborate simulationist methodologies of dealing damage?

I think your question answers itself. The simulationist aspect is important to some portion of the playerbase.

Vogonjeltz

2015-01-30, 05:46 PM

This will surely be alleviated with MM2.

When was any MM2 announced? (Is this another way of saying 'Never'?)

So when considering class balance, I think that its important to consider the fact that cantrip scales automatically with your class level, but weapon damage does not.

Extra Attack is the more effective Full Martial version of Cantrip scaling. Extra Attack is better, it allows the user to effect multiple acts vs multiple targets whereas the Cantrip is usually 1 act vs 1 target. Extra Attack has superior flexibility to the Cantrip.

Level 20 capstone? You may switch from form to form instead of reverting back. Your temp HP resets only if you go from normal form to beast/elemental form.

An interesting tweak; I think it might be a little disconcerting to have a Squirrel with the hit points of a Mammoth however. Instead, I'd take a page out of Shapechange to allow shifting without return to normal form: If the new form would have more hit points, you retain your current hit point total.

So if, over the course of 3 rounds, you shift into Mammoth then to Owl then to Mammoth again, you only have 1 hit point until returning to normal form. Still, this sounds like a fairly huge buff for Wildshape in general by getting the benefits of a new form without having to use the two bonus actions required to revert and then take that form.

Easy_Lee

2015-01-30, 06:13 PM

Regarding the whole shift in and out of a form thing, I just said that shifting back into a form on the same rest doesn't reset the form's hp. If I shift mammoth, take damage, shift out and later shift back, then the mammoth still has that damage until I finish a short rest.

This way level 20 druids are more like Aku from Samurai Jack. They have to keep coming up with new forms each time one is defeated, until they just plain run out of ideas or their base form runs out of HP. I like it a lot better than just seeing the same form again and again.

Kryx

2015-01-30, 06:16 PM

When was any MM2 announced? (Is this another way of saying 'Never'?)

Not at all. I expect it to be one of the first expansion books outside of adventures. There are a lot of missing classic monsters like baghest.

Vogonjeltz

2015-01-30, 08:02 PM

Not at all. I expect it to be one of the first expansion books outside of adventures. There are a lot of missing classic monsters like baghest.

My question was meant to find out if the position that Druid wildshape is imbalanced is based only on a hypothetical future, or some kind of evidence. It would seem that answer is the former only.

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-30, 08:33 PM

An interesting tweak; I think it might be a little disconcerting to have a Squirrel with the hit points of a Mammoth however. Instead, I'd take a page out of Shapechange to allow shifting without return to normal form: If the new form would have more hit points, you retain your current hit point total.

So if, over the course of 3 rounds, you shift into Mammoth then to Owl then to Mammoth again, you only have 1 hit point until returning to normal form. Still, this sounds like a fairly huge buff for Wildshape in general by getting the benefits of a new form without having to use the two bonus actions required to revert and then take that form.

With my twist (which is mostly a spitball mind you) to wildshape you gain temp HP when you shift from your form to animal form. This is based on level. This works a lot like false life actually.

Low level: 1d6 + X

Mid level: 1d8 + X

High level: 1d10 + X

X can be... Druid level?

So if you switch from natural form to beast you gain whatever temp HP. If you go back to natural form you lose those temp HP. Then when you go to another beast form you get to reroll your temp HP.

Going from beast to beast doesn't reset the temp HP, but is a huge utility boost.

Eslin

2015-01-30, 09:54 PM

My question was meant to find out if the position that Druid wildshape is imbalanced is based only on a hypothetical future, or some kind of evidence. It would seem that answer is the former only.
Nope, I've had a moon druid stop using wild shape for combat once she hit mid game because it stopped being competitive.

Kryx

2015-01-31, 06:16 AM

My question was meant to find out if the position that Druid wildshape is imbalanced is based only on a hypothetical future, or some kind of evidence. It would seem that answer is the former only.

I have never made that claim. However if you look at the beast options for druid they sharply drop off above CR 4. Which is what I suggested MM2 would fix.

Vogonjeltz

2015-01-31, 09:51 AM

With my twist (which is mostly a spitball mind you) to wildshape you gain temp HP when you shift from your form to animal form. This is based on level. This works a lot like false life actually.

Low level: 1d6 + X

Mid level: 1d8 + X

High level: 1d10 + X

X can be... Druid level?

So if you switch from natural form to beast you gain whatever temp HP. If you go back to natural form you lose those temp HP. Then when you go to another beast form you get to reroll your temp HP.

Going from beast to beast doesn't reset the temp HP, but is a huge utility boost.

Then they won't be able to benefit from temporary hit points from other sources (rally etc)

I have never made that claim. However if you look at the beast options for druid they sharply drop off above CR 4. Which is what I suggested MM2 would fix.

The claim was made that a Druid would have options they don't actually have yet, increasing their versatility with MM2. No mm2 no improvements.

Theodoxus

2015-01-31, 11:25 AM

Then they won't be able to benefit from temporary hit points from other sources (rally etc)

You think temp HPs last forever? Especially if the druid is a frontliner? THP aren't that great, and most classes aren't tossing them out like candy.

Malifice

2015-01-31, 11:57 PM

Removing hp replacement is not a general agreement. It's a horrendous nerf to put a melee focused class in the front lines with 13 or less AC with the same default HP.

My changes:

• A druid in a wild shape form retains his own HD and HP of his natural form when using wild shape. Druids gain temporary HP equal to 2 times their Druid level whenever they assume a wild shape from their natural form.
• At 2nd level when a moon druid adopts wild shape, he may calculate his AC by adding his wisdom modifier to the creatures base AC.

Balances the Druid across 20 levels perfectly.

Eslin

2015-02-01, 12:16 AM

My changes:

• A druid in a wild shape form retains his own HD and HP of his natural form when using wild shape. Druids gain temporary HP equal to 2 times their Druid level whenever they assume a wild shape from their natural form.
• At 2nd level when a moon druid adopts wild shape, he may calculate his AC by adding his wisdom modifier to the creatures base AC.

Balances the Druid across 20 levels perfectly.

No, it doesn't, they're still a long way behind in ability to hit. They need their proficiency bonus to apply to attack rolls at the very least.

Malifice

2015-02-01, 12:27 AM

No, it doesn't, they're still a long way behind in ability to hit. They need their proficiency bonus to apply to attack rolls at the very least.

I just assumed they do already.

I interpret the second dot point of wild shape to enable the Druid to use its proficiency bonus (with the monsters stats mod) for attack rolls (if higher than the monsters).

The monster is proficient in its own attacks after all.

Eslin

2015-02-01, 12:31 AM

I just assumed they do already.

I interpret the second dot point of wild shape to enable the Druid to use its proficiency bonus (with the monsters stats mod) for attack rolls (if higher than the monsters).

The monster is proficient in its own attacks after all.

I assumed they do too, but listen to the people on this forum - apparently at level 13 when everyone has +5 proficiency on their attacks the druid is supposed to be limited to +2.

Malifice

2015-02-01, 01:24 AM

I assumed they do too, but listen to the people on this forum - apparently at level 13 when everyone has +5 proficiency on their attacks the druid is supposed to be limited to +2.

Didn't the devs state that the Druid is supposed to add prof bonus to attacks if higher?

They explicitly get to do so with skills and saves.

If the Druid is proficient in the unarmed atracks of it's forms (which it is since it gains all proficiencies of its form when wild shaped) then it should be able to use it own proficiency bonus when wild shaped.

Kryx

2015-02-01, 07:05 AM

Didn't the devs state that the Druid is supposed to add prof bonus to attacks if higher?

That is not what it said, no. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/
The answer still does not answer the question - I assume they're planning on clearing up this area in the eratta so leaving it intentionally vague until then.

If the Druid is proficient in the unarmed atracks of it's forms (which it is since it gains all proficiencies of its form when wild shaped) then it should be able to use it own proficiency bonus when wild shaped.

Beast attacks are natural attacks, not unarmed attacks. Very different. See the dev quote about Martial arts applying.

Adding Prof to attacks is not as easy as it sounds: Monsters don't use the same calcs as PCs. There are many examples of a monster's stats not matching up. Plus monsters are balanced based on their to-hit. Adjusting that to be the same on every monster would open lots of worm cans. Several monsters are balanced with high dmg and lower to-hit.

Plus spellcasting.

This is no where near as cut-and-dry as the "buff wildshaping" group is calling for.

Scallat

2015-02-01, 08:19 AM

The Horde of the Dragon Queen adventure has a magic item "Amulet of Claws" +1 to attack and damage rolls with natural weapons / unarmed strikes and they count as magical. Unless you're running encounters that seems like problem solved to me.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-01, 08:23 AM

Then they won't be able to benefit from temporary hit points from other sources (rally etc)

Who takes rally?

Most options for THP aren't going to be used all that much. Thebonpy spell or ability that gives THP that would be used is Heroism... And I'm away from book and not sure if it gives THP or raises the HP maximum of the target.

The beast form may not accept THP from other sources but the base form of the druid certainly can.

But THP just isn't an issue really.

Besides, if toy make X = Druid level you will be getting more THP from this ability than you will from outside sources.

silveralen

2015-02-01, 09:40 AM

Nope, I've had a moon druid stop using wild shape for combat once she hit mid game because it stopped being competitive.

That's rather odd. Even with the lower chance to hit, the damage still outpaces cantrips unless the enemy has lots of AC and awful saves. At level 12, Elephant would be an average 24 damage going off your calculation earlier, vs the 19.5 of poison spray, which means the druid has to be in melee range without being shifted, or 13.5 for something like produce flame.

For resource conservation, wildshape is far better than cantrips. Far better. In big battles the druid should be casting, but unless you have a 5 min adventuring day the need to conserve spells is there.

Of course, by level 12 I guess you think the Druid should be more accurate than a fighter, and that's your prerogative. Personally, I think this is balanced fine, the issue comes when someone wanting to play a melee juggernaut chose a full caster.

Vogonjeltz

2015-02-01, 11:56 AM

You think temp HPs last forever? Especially if the druid is a frontliner? THP aren't that great, and most classes aren't tossing them out like candy.

They do last "forever" if there's no stated duration.

I'm just saying it's a clear nerf to make the beast form use temporary hit points.

My changes:

• A druid in a wild shape form retains his own HD and HP of his natural form when using wild shape. Druids gain temporary HP equal to 2 times their Druid level whenever they assume a wild shape from their natural form.
• At 2nd level when a moon druid adopts wild shape, he may calculate his AC by adding his wisdom modifier to the creatures base AC.

Balances the Druid across 20 levels perfectly.

What would be the point of being a moon Druid then really? Higher cr forms would be basically identical to the low cr forms. One of the perks of the higher cr forms is more hp. Removing that is just a nerf.

Who takes rally?

Most options for THP aren't going to be used all that much. Thebonpy spell or ability that gives THP that would be used is Heroism... And I'm away from book and not sure if it gives THP or raises the HP maximum of the target.

The beast form may not accept THP from other sources but the base form of the druid certainly can.

But THP just isn't an issue really.

Besides, if toy make X = Druid level you will be getting more THP from this ability than you will from outside sources.

Battlemasters take rally. Or did you mean to ask "why take rally?" Because it provides temporary hit points and the method used to generate them comes back after a short rest. Effectively they are free if you were planning a short rest anyway.

Giant2005

2015-02-01, 12:50 PM

What would be the point of being a moon Druid then really? Higher cr forms would be basically identical to the low cr forms. One of the perks of the higher cr forms is more hp. Removing that is just a nerf.

You don't need HP with those proposed changes. With those changes in play, a 4 Druid/1 Monk would have 24 AC in Giant Popisonous Snake form (Provided he rolled a 16 or higher in at least 1 stat and chose a race with +2 Wis). That means he could face things as powerful as Githyanki Warriors, Grell, Wight or Hobgoblin Captains (All CR3 enemies worth 300xp amd considered a "hard" battle for a level 5 party) and never really risk being hit. They could only hit on a natural 20 which is a 0.5% chance or a 0.25% chance if he does something to impose disadvantage on their attacks. By using his spell slots to heal the minor damage whenever he is hit every few rounds, he could reasonably expect to be able to take on a few dozen of them solo.

silveralen

2015-02-01, 12:54 PM

You don't need HP with those proposed changes. With those changes in play, a 4 Druid/1 Monk would have 24 AC in Giant Popisonous Snake form (Provided he rolled a 16 or higher in at least 1 stat and chose a race with +2 Wis). That means he could face things as powerful as Githyanki Warriors, Grell, Wight or Hobgoblin Captains (All CR3 enemies worth 300xp amd considered a "hard" battle for a level 5 party) and never really risk being hit. They could only hit on a natural 20 which is a 0.5% chance or a 0.25% chance if he does something to impose disadvantage on their attacks. By using his spell slots to heal the minor damage whenever he is hit every few rounds, he could reasonably expect to be able to take on a few dozen of them solo.

So.... we now have Lvl 5 druids able to completely dominate the game without even using spells. You guys really do miss 3.5 I guess.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-01, 01:03 PM

Battlemasters take rally. Or did you mean to ask "why take rally?" Because it provides temporary hit points and the method used to generate them comes back after a short rest. Effectively they are free if you were planning a short rest anyway.

Waste of a maneuver. Killing things/imposing trip/imposing frightened work better than giving a die and having someone gain temp HP and still e able to be taken out easily.

You are also proposing that because 1/3 of fighters that represent of 1/12 of main classes might take a maneuver then that a class feature is bad because it doesn't sync up with it?

That's ridiculous.

That's like saying mage armor is a horrible spell because dwarves get medium armor proficiency.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-01, 01:05 PM

So.... we now have Lvl 5 druids able to completely dominate the game without even using spells. You guys really do miss 3.5 I guess.

Most of my groups prefer to have ACs from 14-17 when in levels 1-12 so that they don't feel like gods.

:smallsmile:

Theodoxus

2015-02-01, 01:36 PM

That is not what it said, no. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/
The answer still does not answer the question - I assume they're planning on clearing up this area in the eratta so leaving it intentionally vague until then.

That's not vague at all - though I think calebrus44 is being thickheaded on purpose.

"A druid in beast form uses his or her proficiencies, except when the beast has the same proficiency with a higher bonus." and "The intent is that the druid uses the bonus in the beast's stat block for any proficiency the druid lacks."

Is a druid proficient in natural weapons? No? Then they don't have the same proficiency. Since they don't, the druid uses the beasts stat block. Period. - Nothing on page 67 contradicts this. Weapon and Armor proficiencies aren't Skills or Saving Throws.

Does it suck and make current beast modes less than ideal? Yes. Is it worse than other subclasses? Probably not. It does maintain the moon druid as a skirmisher/off tank who nearly requires rider effects to keep pace with stronger melee classes. That's balanced, however.

archaeo

2015-02-01, 05:08 PM

Does it suck and make current beast modes less than ideal? Yes. Is it worse than other subclasses? Probably not. It does maintain the moon druid as a skirmisher/off tank who nearly requires rider effects to keep pace with stronger melee classes. That's balanced, however.

I basically agree with this. Moon Druid really doesn't need the buff of a very counterintuitive rules reading; you're still a full caster who can transform into a bear.

Malifice

2015-02-01, 10:21 PM

That is not what it said, no. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/
The answer still does not answer the question - I assume they're planning on clearing up this area in the eratta so leaving it intentionally vague until then.

That link tells me they clearly intended for the Druid to use either the animals proficiency bonus or his own (using the beasts ability mod) whichever is higher.

That's certainly the way I'm running it.

Beast attacks are natural attacks, not unarmed attacks. Very different. See the dev quote about Martial arts applying.

Martial arts is a class feature. If beasts are proficient in their natural attacks, then when the Druid becomes the beast he may substitute his own prof bonus to anything the Beast is proficient in.

Adding Prof to attacks is not as easy as it sounds:

Yes it is. Druids prof bonus + the monsters ability modifier (almost always strength).

It doesn't get much easier than that.

Malifice

2015-02-01, 10:23 PM

What would be the point of being a moon Druid then really? Higher cr forms would be basically identical to the low cr forms. One of the perks of the higher cr forms is more hp. Removing that is just a nerf.

Yes it is a nerf. A much needed one.

And there are massive differences between forms still. Special abilities, movement speeds, resistances, ability to breath underwater, fly, special attacks etc.

Malifice

2015-02-01, 10:27 PM

You don't need HP with those proposed changes. With those changes in play, a 4 Druid/1 Monk would have 24 AC in Giant Popisonous Snake form (Provided he rolled a 16 or higher in at least 1 stat and chose a race with +2 Wis).

Why are you adding Wisdom twice?

If you have multiple methods of calculating AC you use only one.

I allow Druids to add Wis to AC to discourage Monk dips, and importantly to allow AC to scale and to counteract the loss of HP buffers from my wild shape nerf (it only grants a small pool of temp hit points now).

I was considering allowing the Druid to add prof bonus instead of Wisdom to the Beasts base AC.

Malifice

2015-02-01, 10:38 PM

Giant2005

2015-02-01, 10:45 PM

Why are you adding Wisdom twice?

If you have multiple methods of calculating AC you use only one.

I allow Druids to add Wis to AC to discourage Monk dips, and importantly to allow AC to scale and to counteract the loss of HP buffers from my wild shape nerf (it only grants a small pool of temp hit points now).

I was considering allowing the Druid to add prof bonus instead of Wisdom to the Beasts base AC.

As it was mentioned earlier in the thread, it was a simple "Add Wis bonus to AC" it wasn't a method of calculating AC, it was a bonus to AC. Ergo the Monk's method plus a bonus equals double Wis dipping.

Vogonjeltz

2015-02-01, 11:03 PM

Waste of a maneuver. Killing things/imposing trip/imposing frightened work better than giving a die and having someone gain temp HP and still e able to be taken out easily.

You are also proposing that because 1/3 of fighters that represent of 1/12 of main classes might take a maneuver then that a class feature is bad because it doesn't sync up with it?

That's ridiculous.

That's like saying mage armor is a horrible spell because dwarves get medium armor proficiency.

Well there are several other sources of temp hp, so I wouldn't be as hasty to pigeonhole it.

Oh and healing can't restore temp hp, so this idea requires reworking the Druid ability to heal using spell slots too.

Malifice

2015-02-01, 11:06 PM

As it was mentioned earlier in the thread, it was a simple "Add Wis bonus to AC" it wasn't a method of calculating AC, it was a bonus to AC. Ergo the Monk's method plus a bonus equals double Wis dipping.

Nope. This is what I said:

My changes:

• A druid in a wild shape form retains his own HD and HP of his natural form when using wild shape. Druids gain temporary HP equal to 2 times their Druid level whenever they assume a wild shape from their natural form.
• At 2nd level when a moon druid adopts wild shape, he may calculate his AC by adding his wisdom modifier to the creatures base AC.

2nd level Moon Druid in Bear form gains 4 Temp HP (2x per short rest) = 8 HP per short rest - about equal to second wind. Gains multi attack +6 (2d6+4 and 1d8+4) about equal to GWF/GWM and has an AC of 14 (assuming Wis 16). Is large size. Can also go the Wolf for the trip attack.

Roughly equal to the Fighter at the same level.

At 15th level in the same Bear form he gains 30 HP (2x short rest) = 60 HP per short rest, multiattack +9/+9 (same damage) and has an AC of 16 (assuming wisdom 20 by then). Can also use Wild shape to fly, swim, climb, go elemental forms etc. AC becomes 21 in elemental form, and gains a ton of resistances, special attacks and special movement rates.

Oh, and is casting 8th level spells. Which he can use to regenerate as well as anything else.

Lagging behind the DPR and AC of a Fighter at higher level (who gradually pulls away in pure fighting potential), but has a reserve of spellcasting and utility that the Fighter can only dream of. Also has a pool of 180 temp HP per adventuring day (2 x short rests) and healing as a bonus action to soak a good amount of damage (which is basically the Moon Druids role in tanking).

Like I said, it balances it out perfectly.

silveralen

2015-02-02, 05:42 AM

Just to clarify how I run Druids:

1) Druids retain HP and HD in Wild shaped form. They gain temp hit points = to (Druid level x 2) when they assume wild shape from natural form (but not when shifting back).
2) Moon Druids (only) may calculate their AC in Wild shape form by adding Wisdom to the Beast forms base AC.
3) Druids may substitute their proficiency bonus for the beasts proficiency bonus for any skills or saves the beast is proficient in. They also do the same for the natural attacks of the beast. The druid also retains any saves or skills it is proficient in.

With the temp HP buffer, Moon Druids gain a pool of temp HP per short rests that remains on par with the Fighters second wind and the Paladins lay on hands. They can of course also heal themselves at will as a bonus action meaning they stay 'HP sinks' without it being ridiculously OP at low to middle, and end game levels (Onion druid is now dead, and the Fighter is not totally invalidated at levels 2-5).

At 10th level, the Druid gains 40 temp HP per short rest. That's 120 HP per 2 short rest adventuring day. With a d8 HD chassis underneath it, the ability to burn spells as bonus actions to regenerate, and full 9th level caster chassis underneath (plus the utility of wild shape) I can live with that.

By comparison the 2nd level Druid via current RAW gains a whopping 240 HP per adventuring day. That (in my books) is ridiculously OP for 2nd level.

AC now improves to counteract the loss of the massive HP buffer Druids had.

Moon druid combat forms improve with level, remaining slightly behind the martial classes at every level, but still retaining strong combat power and very strong versatility (and with full 9th level casting under the combat chassis). Encounters are also much easier to balance with parties featuring Moon Druids with these changes.

Wow that's so unbelievably broken. Why would anyone play a melee class over a moon druid? The moon druid is a full caster, has temporary HP, better melee power, and a higher potential AC.

By level 15, your beast form has the same accuracy as a melee class, an AC 19, and damage that's at lest on par with what most melee characters can do.... plus you know, is a full caster the rest of the time. I mean, this is unreal. Did you even consider balance when you made these changes? That subclass feature is almost as good as the main class features for many classes. It's like eldritch knight giving you full caster progression with the still restricted spell list.

I certainly can't imagine playing a monk with those moon druids around, they are outright better.

Lagging behind the DPR and AC of a Fighter at higher level (who gradually pulls away in pure fighting potential), but has a reserve of spellcasting and utility that the Fighter can only dream of. Also has a pool of 180 temp HP per adventuring day (2 x short rests) and healing as a bonus action to soak a good amount of damage (which is basically the Moon Druids role in tanking).

Like I said, it balances it out perfectly.

No he doesn't. Not in either case.

DPR only lags with magic items and feats, while AC only lags with lots of magic items. Otherwise, the moon druid will barely lag in DPR and win in AC.

It is in no way balanced. It isn't even close.

I mean, from level 6-11, the druid is 100% on par with melee classes. Polar bear form lags by 1-2 points of AC, completely made up for by the fact he can self heal and has temp HP, has basically the same damage with the same or higher accuracy. If he lags, it is by the tiniest amount, and this is a full ritual caster with the best cantrip in the game on his list. There is no reason to play a non archer fighter at your table, the druid is at least 95% of what the fighter is plus a full caster.

God forbid we talk about elemental form.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 06:11 AM

Wow that's so unbelievably broken. Why would anyone play a melee class over a moon druid? The moon druid is a full caster, has temporary HP, better melee power, and a higher potential AC.

Rubbish. The Moon Druids AC is not higher than that of the Fighter. They have an AC of 16 via Barkskin from 2nd level anyway. All my rules do is allow AC to scale with level to compensate for the serious lack of HP that they get in those rules.

More than happy to compare a Druid 12 in RAW v a Druid 12 in my rules (lets go with Earth Elemental form) assuming Stats of 18:

The difference is: RAW: An extra 126 bonus hit points every single short rest. That can be healed with spell slots. On top of the Druids base d8 hp. AC 17

Versus: (My rules) an extra 24 temporary HP every short rest. That cant be healed. AC 21. Attack bonus increases from +8 to +9. Everything else stays the same.

Vesus standard GWF/ GWM Champion Fighter. 3 attacks at +9 (2d6+5) x 3 (plus extra attack on crit or drop)

The Fighter gets 1d10+12 Hit points every short rest (comparable to the temp HP I give Druids), plus action surge, Extra 5d10 damage with manouvers, indomitable, 2 extra ASI/ feats. AC 19. More HP to with 124 Hit points (+1d10+12).

By level 15, your beast form has the same accuracy as a melee class, an AC 19, and damage that's at lest on par with what most melee characters can do.... plus you know, is a full caster the rest of the time.

Make me a Druid 15 in whatever Elemental form you want. With my changes. And then again without. Stat it up however you want with point buy.

I'll happily throw it up against a champion Fighter 15 in a straight PvP fight.

With no magic items or missile weapons or range (which disadvantages the Fighter)

Bet you the errated Druid loses in a fight with the Fighter 15, and I bet you the RAW one doesnt.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 06:20 AM

With no magic items, the Fighter probably cant actually defeat the Druid. Needs to smash through 126 HP (halving the damage due to resistance) so needs to deal 252 points of damage before knocking the druid out of Elemental form.

The Druid gets to heal (as a bonus action) while the Fighter tries to whittle that 252 HP down. Then the Druid ican fall back on on its own HP under the chassis (15xD8+CON).

Even action surging, rolling a few lucky crits, and using the GWM feat he wont win barring some absolte fluke.

A Magic sword tips the balance the other way.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 06:25 AM

I mean, from level 6-11, the druid is 100% on par with melee classes. Polar bear form lags by 1-2 points of AC, completely made up for by the fact he can self heal and has temp HP, has basically the same damage with the same or higher accuracy..

Whats the difference at level 6-10 between Fighter and Druid via RAW?

Aside from the fact the core Druid is getting an extra 100HP per short rest once he hits Polar bear.

My Druid is getting an extra 24-40 HP per short rest.

Perhaps droping the AC to half proficiency bonus (instead of Wisdom) might be better.

Talderas

2015-02-02, 08:41 AM

With no magic items, the Fighter probably cant actually defeat the Druid. Needs to smash through 126 HP (halving the damage due to resistance) so needs to deal 252 points of damage before knocking the druid out of Elemental form.

Then I would declare the druid is overpowered. A fighter, with his whole toolkit can't take down a druid using only a piece of his toolkit? That's broken levels of power.

I don't get this obsession with bringing wildshape up anywhere close to what a fighter can do. Druid's have full spell casting and don't have to expend a feat to get access to great cantrips. The spellcasting alone is sufficient to justify druids paling in comparison.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-02, 08:53 AM

Well there are several other sources of temp hp, so I wouldn't be as hasty to pigeonhole it.

Oh and healing can't restore temp hp, so this idea requires reworking the Druid ability to heal using spell slots too.

Which when you change from normal form to beast form you get your temp HP replaced. Wildshape in my spitball idea was at-will.

I'm not sure why you take issues with something like this.

I could make the same argument as you for any ability that gives temp HP... By using that ability you are taking away the ability for others to give you temp HP! What a shame! :smallannoyed:

So a fighter who uses Rally is bad because then you can't get temp ho from other sources! Oh no!

Edit: oh and people, these classes weren't meant to take on each other but were meant to go up against a monster of whatever CR. Instead of devolving this into another PVP you should look into an appropriate challenge for them. A Fighter and druid at high level can not have the same CR due to the tools that they each get. Send them both against the same problem and let them get out of it.

Person_Man

2015-02-02, 09:01 AM

My understanding of 5E rules is that they do what they say that they do in plain English. They're designed to be relatively simple and intuitive.

Applying this to Wildshape, I think the intent is that you if you can Wildshape into a particular Beast, you basically just use its stat block as written, except for your mental stats (which remain the same) and your Skills and Saves (where you can use yours or the Beasts, using whichever value is higher). That's it. No math. No recalculations which would make it difficult to Wildshape into a new form you haven't used before. No hidden metagame related to the exact calculations of which Beast you should choose to optimize specific Skills or whatever. You just use what's written, unless you have a better Skill or Save, and then you can use that instead.

I know that's very unlike how it used to work in 3.X. But I think that's the point.

Now, I don't claim that my understanding is the correct RAW that shale rule the land for all gamers everywhere. I'm just saying that in 5E, the simple and intuitive explanation is usually the correct one.

Myzz

2015-02-02, 09:30 AM

Is a druid proficient in natural weapons? No? Then they don't have the same proficiency. Since they don't, the druid uses the beasts stat block. Period. - Nothing on page 67 contradicts this. Weapon and Armor proficiencies aren't Skills or Saving Throws.

Isn't every PC proficient in natural weapons? For humanoids we call this unarmed fighting... Using fists, elbows, headbutts and kicks. If the PC has nails or claws of note, then they could apply those as well... If the player were to acquire natural weapons from Alter Self, they would proficient with those natural weapons too...

So yes a druid in wildshape is proficient with natural weapons, so yes it would make sense for them to rank up proficiency as they level if their proficiency is higher then that of the beast... This would be represented by the fact that the druid is of higher intelligence and able to apply the use of those natural weapons to better use than beast, owing to a higher understanding of the opponent they are facing...

as noted RAW does not say they are proficient with natural weapons, nor does it state they are not... It is however implied that they are proficient with natural weapons looking at unarmed fighting as using a humanoids natural weapons, which all classes are proficient in, as well as Alter Self allowing natural weapons and not specifying they now become proficient with them, or stating they are not... Otherwise why ever use that aspect of Alter Self...

Giant2005

2015-02-02, 10:30 AM

It is however implied that they are proficient with natural weapons looking at unarmed fighting as using a humanoids natural weapons, which all classes are proficient in

Not everyone is proficient in unarmed fighting. Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards all lack that proficiency (Unless they pick up Tavern Brawler).

silveralen

2015-02-02, 12:58 PM

Whats the difference at level 6-10 between Fighter and Druid via RAW?

Aside from the fact the core Druid is getting an extra 100HP per short rest once he hits Polar bear.

My Druid is getting an extra 24-40 HP per short rest.

Perhaps droping the AC to half proficiency bonus (instead of Wisdom) might be better.

Lower AC and notably lower DPR due to the accuracy difference. The druid actually goes through the temp HP fairly fast due to the minimal AC and they aren't matching them shot for shot by a decent margin.

The best change? If the AC goes up, the HP goes down. As in, if they can match full plate they get no temporary HP.

You are removing multiple balancing aspects. The CR is based on five key factors. You remove two and modify a third. It is going to result in horrible results. Wildshape is, in many ways, on the weaker side. That is intentional. You are not a fighter. If the druid is coming close to even a paladin or ranger at will damage when in beast form, balance has been lost. Full caster. The form allows druid to conserve spells and take care of normal encounters safely. It is not meant to be the basis of the class.

Druid is a full caster, a ritual full caster for that matter. When you turn it into a half caster, then we can talk about it getting prof to animal form attacks and a 20 AC when shifted.

oh and people, these classes weren't meant to take on each other but were meant to go up against a monster of whatever CR. Instead of devolving this into another PVP you should look into an appropriate challenge for them. A Fighter and druid at high level can not have the same CR due to the tools that they each get. Send them both against the same problem and let them get out of it.

Okay.

Your druid wins almost every scenario. A full ritual caster beats fighter in utility, they have more longevity from drawn out fights, and at will they only are slightly lagging behind fighter if they use no spells. Fighter normally wins on damage by a decent margin versus single targets, which isn't much but its something. These changes minimize that to the point it isn't particularly relevant.

Congratulations! You've screwed up balance horribly! All you had to do was ban shifting from animal form to animal form to correct the biggest issue, but no you managed to find a solution both more complicated and less balanced! Kudos!

Most of my groups prefer to have ACs from 14-17 when in levels 1-12 so that they don't feel like gods.

:smallsmile:

Moon druid might as well be a god compared to fighter after this. You basically took away the thing he was actually specialized in. He has action surge and... nothing. Literally nothing the moon druid can't do better. Once again, bringing that 3.5 spirit back thanks to people needing to be a frontline fullcaster. Great job /sarcasm.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-02, 01:19 PM

Okay.

Your druid wins almost every scenario. A full ritual caster beats fighter in utility, they have more longevity from drawn out fights, and at will they only are slightly lagging behind fighter if they use no spells. Fighter normally wins on damage by a decent margin versus single targets, which isn't much but its something. These changes minimize that to the point it isn't particularly relevant.

Congratulations! You've screwed up balance horribly! All you had to do was ban shifting from animal form to animal form to correct the biggest issue, but no you managed to find a solution both more complicated and less balanced! Kudos!

Moon druid might as well be a god compared to fighter after this. You basically took away the thing he was actually specialized in. He has action surge and... nothing. Literally nothing the moon druid can't do better. Once again, bringing that 3.5 spirit back thanks to people needing to be a frontline fullcaster. Great job /sarcasm.

Did you read my posts on wildshape at all? My fix n it would be to make it more like Paizo's Eidolon with building a creature.

There is no way you can say I made an unbalanced druid because I haven't made a 5e druid or change to wildshape. I gave my opinion on how one would go about doing it. I mentioned the temp HP as a way to replace the normal HP switch, compared this is a Nerf so... I'm not sure how it would have unbalanced anything.***

Stop just throwing crap against the wall and hope that it sticks.

Also, what are you talking about with regard to AC? I said my groups like to stick around mid AC levels because it makes them feel mortal. I didn't say I forced them or anything like that. Even with this it doesn't stop the fighter from obtaining levels 3-20. Most of the time I'm a player as I only DM one shots on a rare occasion.

Again, please stop throwing crap against the wall and hoping it sticks. It's very unbecoming.

Edit:*** and this goes along with my Ediolon-esc "Build a Wildshape" wildshape idea.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 01:22 PM

I can't help but feel that most of the people in this thread have never actually played a moon druid, nor played with one.

The moon druid in my group was not able to contribute as much as the life cleric and blade pact warlock. This is in spite of the fact that moon druids are supposedly OP at the levels my group is playing at right now. This is what inspired me to come up with some of these changes In the first place. In fact, the only nerfs I felt the need to add were punishing the druid for dying in a form (at first by dropping base form to 0 HP, then by changing it to stunned for one round) and not allowing multiattack until 5. I even gave the moon druid another buff, letting her switch in and out of shapeshift at will as long as she kept track of the current conditions and HP totals between all forms.

People are severely overestimating the ability to shapeshift. She does less damage overall than either of her party members, even with my changes. She theoretically should be the hardest to kill, but in practice the life cleric has proven much more resilient. She theoretically should have the most utility, but in practice the warlock's skill and cantrip choices are useful in the widest variety of situations.

So please, rather than just say moon druids are gods or whatever compared to whoever, try actually running some games or scenarios to see who contributes more.

Demonic Spoon

2015-02-02, 02:00 PM

This is in spite of the fact that moon druids are supposedly OP at the levels my group is playing at right now.
...
So please, rather than just say moon druids are gods or whatever compared to whoever, try actually running some games or scenarios to see who contributes more.

Just a second:

In fact, the only nerfs I felt the need to add were punishing the druid for dying in a form (at first by dropping base form to 0 HP, then by changing it to stunned for one round) and not allowing multiattack until 5. I even gave the moon druid another buff, letting her switch in and out of shapeshift at will as long as she kept track of the current conditions and HP totals between all forms.

You added some seriously major nerfs to the moon druid at those levels. You can't nerf the class that much via houserules and then condemn everyone else for assuming the class is too powerful at those levels. No one else is assuming that these specific houserules are in place.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 02:07 PM

You added some seriously major nerfs to the moon druid at those levels. You can't nerf the class that much via houserules and then condemn everyone else for assuming the class is too powerful at those levels. No one else is assuming that these specific houserules are in place.

Think I covered that in my earlier posts, though I should note that the nerfs have yet to come into play. Meaning I buffed the druid to get her up to the same level as the others, since the nerfs haven't even happened yet (every time she's about to die, she switches back to her base form or heals via consuming a spellslot, that feature everyone forgets moon druids have).

silveralen

2015-02-02, 02:15 PM

Did you read my posts on wildshape at all? My fix n it would be to make it more like Paizo's Eidolon with building a creature.

Remind me again what spell levels summoner could reach in 3.PF? Remember how base accuracy for a summoner ends up about 75% of a full BAB class? That's actually a far bigger gap than exists this edition to start with.

The problem you are fixing, wildshaping being weak, is supposed to exist. Wildshape druid is supposed toi suck less than cantrips and more than everything else. That's where it is at.

The AC was me confusing you with another person though. My bad on that, I did something weird when I was following quote chains and got confused.

I can't help but feel that most of the people in this thread have never actually played a moon druid, nor played with one.

People are severely overestimating the ability to shapeshift. She does less damage overall than either of her party members, even with my changes. She theoretically should be the hardest to kill, but in practice the life cleric has proven much more resilient. She theoretically should have the most utility, but in practice the warlock's skill and cantrip choices are useful in the widest variety of situations.

So please, rather than just say moon druids are gods or whatever compared to whoever, try actually running some games or scenarios to see who contributes more.

I've got a moon druid at the table. Damn near impossible to kill (I have no idea how your moon druid is tougher). The DM tends to over target just to bleed through the temp HP. Still, by far the most versatile character. Tons of utility, you mention cantrips, guidance is an amazing cantrip druids have access to that the moon druid at my table uses to amazing effect. Then you have the actual powerful spells and rituals for more utility. They don't lack in combat either, summoning spells in particular though AoE spells are always nice, even if druid is a little meh there. Wildshape is also great utility, fly on a short rest by level 8 is pretty amazing.

However, it sounds like your party has optimization issues. A life cleric beating a druid in damage is unlikely unless the cleric is burning spells while the druid isn't. Skill selection is again player side, with guidance and a a decent wisdom score the moon druid should have a some nice skill checks, the warlock will be better at social ones but cha vs wis has different strengths. Are you sure the issue at your table isn't due to players and instead is due to the class?

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 03:32 PM

Let's see what you guys think of this. Assuming "someone" comes up with a shape-shifting homebrew to balance all of this, what would you guys think of something similar to the following replacement for wildshape:

Attack is a d4

Moon druid gets a d6 with progression similar to monk

Pick one form to assume with wildshape from a selection, can pick an additional form at levels when you would be able to fly or swim, plus one more for moon druids at elemental level.
Moon druids get a Feral Action ability which lets them take specific bonus. One possible bonus action is to make an attack, yielding maximum attacks per round as a moon druid = 3.
Form AC=8+wismod+prof (max=19, typical level 2 = 13)
Form HP = 8 + 4*druid level (12 to 88, similar to BM Ranger pet), but you have 3 forms (4 if moon)
shift in and out of form at will
Can't shift into dead forms, form HP and conditions are reset during a short rest
New capstone: reset the HP and remove conditions from all forms as an action once per long rest

Kryx

2015-02-02, 03:36 PM

I can't help but feel that most of the people in this thread have never actually played a moon druid, nor played with one.

I fully agree, but from the entire opposite side of the fence. Removing hp is a terribly unbalanced nerf which then results in massive over the top buffs on the other end.

My druid player read this thread and said the same sentiment without me expressing it to him.

silveralen

2015-02-02, 03:59 PM

Person_Man

2015-02-02, 04:22 PM

Assuming "someone" comes up with a shape-shifting homebrew to balance all of this...

I think what you propose is workable, but it seems a bit overly complex for my personal taste and the style of 5E in general.

So here's my proposal. If you think that 5E Wildshape is too weak or too strong, then the Druid should be moved to a 2E style Wildshape.

You pick 3 forms. All of these forms must be approved by the DM. The CR and Type (Beast, Monstrosities, whatever) and abilities (flight, swim, etc) are unimportant, as long as you can make a good case for why your character should turn into them from a fluff perspective, and the DM thinks that its appropriate for your class level from a balance perspective. When you gain a Druid level, you may replace the forms with a new ones your choice, again subject to DM approval and the requirement that they fit into your overall character concept. Moon Druid gets to choose 5 starting forms instead of 3 (plus their other Wildshape benefits listed as normal).

If the forms you pick end up being too strong or it seems like the Druid is dominating the spotlight too often with their combination of Wildshape + spells, then the self-correcting mechanism is that when you gain a level you have to choose weaker forms (or just stick with the existing ones for a few levels until it seems more balanced).

This wouldn't make sense for WotC to write into their rules. But if we're talking homebrew, we're basically just saying "write whatever makes sense for your game" anyway.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 05:14 PM

That still results in a ton of temporary HP, an AC better than plate eventually, 3 attacks per round with full prof on what is still a full ritual caster.

Still not balanced. Still not even in the ball park for balanced.

Good time to remind you that sorcerers and warlocks can both get what amounts to full attack progression on top of 9th level casting, via d10 cantrips that add CA mod. Better time to remind that a war cleric can also make three attacks per round with dual wielding or polearm master, on top of casting equivalent to a druid's and wearing full plate. Do you think those classes are broken?

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 05:16 PM

I think what you propose is workable, but it seems a bit overly complex for my personal taste and the style of 5E in general.

That's a good point. I think your idea of picking a list of forms is more workable. Hmm, I'll have to think about this.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-02, 05:28 PM

Good time to remind you that sorcerers and warlocks can both get what amounts to full attack progression on top of 9th level casting, via d10 cantrips that add CA mod.

Pretty sure thats 4d+CHA mod. Not huge difference. Unless you are referring to Eldritch blast. Then you're essentially talking about using a class ability vs. class ability.

[Eldritch Blast 1d10+CHA] vs. [Multiple Attack 1d*+STR]

Better time to remind that a war cleric can also make three attacks per round with dual wielding or polearm master, on top of casting equivalent to a druid's and wearing full plate. Do you think those classes are broken?

Should be noted that this requires feat expenditure. You are not proposing feat expenditure for your houseruling of Wildshape.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 06:18 PM

Pretty sure thats 4d+CHA mod. Not huge difference. Unless you are referring to Eldritch blast. Then you're essentially talking about using a class ability vs. class ability.

[Eldritch Blast 1d10+CHA] vs. [Multiple Attack 1d*+STR]

In fact it's not. You add mod to each separate attack as confirmed via dev tweet and, more importantly, RAW definition of what constitutes an attack roll. Thus certain cantrips, such as Eldritch blast and fire bolt, scale the same as weapon attacks in the hands of some casters. Presumably the versatility and other options for melee attacks (such as shove and grapple, bonus attacks, etc), and the fact that not all casters get this benefit, make up for this.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-02, 06:40 PM

Remind me again what spell levels summoner could reach in 3.PF? Remember how base accuracy for a summoner ends up about 75% of a full BAB class? That's actually a far bigger gap than exists this edition to start with.

The problem you are fixing, wildshaping being weak, is supposed to exist. Wildshape druid is supposed toi suck less than cantrips and more than everything else. That's where it is at.

The AC was me confusing you with another person though. My bad on that, I did something weird when I was following quote chains and got confused.

Again, you are just throwing crap at the wall.

The actual summoner had nothing to do with what I was saying. It doesn't matter what spell list they got. I don't know what issue you have with me but please stop making random stuff up when you reply to my poats.

My post was all about making a 5e build your own wildshape form. That's all there is to it. Nothing more, nothing less. I made no mechanics for it and I certainly didn't say to port over the eidolon as is.

I know this might blow your mind but when one was to do this "build your own wildshape" they would attept to balance it within the realms of 5e and not PF sine you know, it would be used in 5e. So calm down and stop making random claims against stuff I didn't even create or go into detail about.

All I said was (paraphrasing, go actually look up my post yourself) "hey, let's have a build your own at will wildshape mechanic". I didn't go into details because I never made details for 5e.

What you are doing is arguing that something is too strong or too weak or unbalanced, and that something doesn't even exist!

My idea isn't about wildshape being weak or strong in 5e. My idea is more about making an at-will wildshape that is cool. I hate the current rules for multiple reasons but their power level is the furthest thing from my mind.

Giant2005

2015-02-02, 06:43 PM

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 07:17 PM

If it also dropped the Druid to half-caster progression I think that would be balanced enough.

The number of attacks and general bonus I proposed is less than what blade-pact warlocks, evoker wizards, and sorcerers are capable of doing. Three attacks, with one of them being bonus, is in-line with war clerics.

Half-casters, such as rangers and paladins, get more attack options, such as smiting, colossus-slayer, and swiftquiver. Thus, a half-caster ought to have DPR that adds up to be not far below a fighter's, after the fighter bonus feats are considered. Many threads, the ranged DPR one in particular (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375185-Class-Comparisons-for-Ranged-Damage), confirm this assumption. In addition, half-casters get unique attacks and mechanics, such as ensnaring strike, lightning arrow, and lay on hands, that further differentiate them.

So I don't think it's fair to compare druids, in any way, to half-casters. The fact that land druids get extra spells and casting options, which further differentiates them from moon druids and give them more casting options, further enforces this point. Moon druids should be able to roughly compete with evoker wizards for DPR, since that's the closest class comparison.

Homebrew
That said, Person_Man convinced me that the homebrew I suggested was too complicated for 5e. I proposed a wildshape homebrew change here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396318-5e-Wildshape-Homebrew&p=18756564#post18756564). I invite you guys to review it. I tried to keep all of the points in this thread in mind when designing it.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 08:50 PM

Then I would declare the druid is overpowered. A fighter, with his whole toolkit can't take down a druid using only a piece of his toolkit? That's broken levels of power..

Thats Fighter v Druid RAW.

Without a magic weapon, a RAW optimized Fighter simply cannot beat a RAW Druid wild-shaped into Earth Elemental form.

The Druid has 126 HP 'skin' over his base HP and resistance to non magic weapon damage.

Even action surging and blowing superiority dice, the Fighter will need some lucky Critical hits to burn through 252 HP of elemental HP (which is then restored at xd8+wis as a bonus action each Druid turn).

If the Fighter 15 has a magic weapon its a different story. And I expect most Fighter 15's to have such a weapon.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 08:53 PM

Thats Fighter v Druid RAW.

Without a magic weapon, a RAW optimized Fighter simply cannot beat a RAW Druid wild-shaped into Earth Elemental form.

The Druid has 126 HP 'skin' over his base HP and resistance to non magic weapon damage.

Even action surging and blowing superiority dice, the Fighter will need some lucky Critical hits to burn through 252 HP of elemental HP (which is then restored at xd8+wis as a bonus action each Druid turn).

If the Fighter 15 has a magic weapon its a different story. And I expect most Fighter 15's to have such a weapon.

In what game is a fighter PvP-ing a 20 druid? Here I thought they both would be looking for ways to kill Tiamat and related at that level. Notably, the fighter will do more damage, more reliably. Even more notably, the fighter's indomitable makes him harder to hit with a save-or-suck. Compare that to a druid, who you can target with a CHA save and turn against his own teammates.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 08:54 PM

Lower AC and notably lower DPR due to the accuracy difference. The druid actually goes through the temp HP fairly fast due to the minimal AC and they aren't matching them shot for shot by a decent margin.

Barkskin grants AC 16. 2nd level spell so online at 3rd. Lasts long enough to stretch between short rests. Cast that before shifting.

Moon Druids (RAW) outdo Fighters at almost all levels (barring 'spike' damage with action surge).

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 08:58 PM

Barkskin grants AC 16. 2nd level spell so online at 3rd. Lasts long enough to stretch between short rests. Cast that before shifting.

Moon Druids (RAW) outdo Fighters at almost all levels (barring 'spike' damage with action surge).

Moon druids can outdo fighters neither in the realms of DPR nor versatility of attack, most of the time.

A level 6 fighter can shove, grapple, and do all kinds of other tricks based on his archetype, such as ripostes, more crits, or even something he gets from a bonus feat. A level 6 fighter also has a very consistent hit rate.

A level 6 druid relies totally on his form's base attack bonus, doesn't have bonus actions outside of those offered by his form, and will have a much lower attack modifier than the fighter in all likelihood. It's not like new CR beasts just pop up exactly when the druid levels, after all. Also, barkskin would constitute the druid's one concentration, has a limited duration, and can be removed by getting hit with the wrong attack.

So what are you comparing, exactly?

Malifice

2015-02-02, 09:02 PM

In what game is a fighter PvP-ing a 20 druid?

They're not. I am using them for comparative purposes.

I'm having huge problems balancing Moon Druids in campaigns - across all levels.

At 3rd level they are running around with AC 16 (barkskin), and a pool of 80 extra HP every short rest (on top of base 25 odd HP), doing more damage per round (with the same bonus to hit) as a GWM/GWS Fighter.

By comparison, the Fighter 3 has a comparable AC from Chainmail, deals roughly the same damage and hit bonus, however he gains 1d10+3 HP every short rest (second wind). The Druid OTOH is getting an extra 80 hit points every short rest.

Its incredibly hard to balance encounters around that, and it clearly outmatches and invalidates the Fighter.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 09:11 PM

They're not. I am using them for comparative purposes.

I'm having huge problems balancing Moon Druids in campaigns - across all levels.

At 3rd level they are running around with AC 16 (barkskin), and a pool of 80 extra HP every short rest (on top of base 25 odd HP), doing more damage per round (with the same bonus to hit) as a GWM/GWS Fighter.

By comparison, the Fighter 3 has a comparable AC from Chainmail, deals roughly the same damage and hit bonus, however he gains 1d10+3 HP every short rest (second wind). The Druid OTOH is getting an extra 80 hit points every short rest.

Its incredibly hard to balance encounters around that, and it clearly outmatches and invalidates the Fighter.

That's 3rd level, where druids can get multiattack (via brown bear) sooner than a fighter (an oversight on WoTC's part). Tell them no multi-attack till 5, and the fighters will either compete or pull ahead depending on the fighter. Notably, a human fighter at 3 with either polearm master or crossbow expert dominates a moon druid's DPR, on top of having many more options.

By 8th level or so, when the druid is running out of good beasts to turn into, he'll start to run into bigger problems than the fighter had at 3. By 9, the moon druid will have very little to contribute beyond spells, unless you've homebrewed some useful CR 3 beasts. He'll have to wait until he gets his next spike at 18, when he can turn into a mammoth...assuming he's seen one. At that point, the fighter still does higher and more reliable DPR most rounds, but at least the druid has something he can do well. Then he gets another spike at 20, when he can suddenly tank a tarrasque indefinitely...which is also dumb.

This is why I feel that the ability is just all kinds of broke. The infinite HP and power spikes are not okay, but neither are the lack of scaling or the many ways in which moon druids can fall behind. That's why I updated and proposed a homebrew, linked to above, which I believe fixes most of these problems.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 09:21 PM

Moon druids can outdo fighters neither in the realms of DPR nor versatility of attack, most of the time.

A level 6 fighter can shove, grapple, and do all kinds of other tricks based on his archetype, such as ripostes, more crits, or even something he gets from a bonus feat. A level 6 fighter also has a very consistent hit rate.

A level 6 druid relies totally on his form's base attack bonus, doesn't have bonus actions outside of those offered by his form, and will have a much lower attack modifier than the fighter in all likelihood. It's not like new CR beasts just pop up exactly when the druid levels, after all. Also, barkskin would constitute the druid's one concentration, has a limited duration, and can be removed by getting hit with the wrong attack.

So what are you comparing, exactly?

A Bear cant grapple, shove or disarm?

Stat me up a Fighter 6 (point buy).

I'll do the same with a Druid 6, and show you how the class invalidates the Fighter.

Human Moon Druid (Polar Bear form). S8, D10, C18, W17, I12, Ch10, Feat: Resilient (Con), + 1C/W, Athletics, Perception, other skills. HP 57, Spells cast: Barkskin.

Armor Class 16, Hit Points 42 (5d10 + 15), Speed 40 ft., swim 30 ft.
STR 20 +5
DEX 10 +0
CON 16 +3
INT 12 +1
WIS 17 +3
CHA 10 +0
Skills Perception +6, Athletics +8
Senses passive Perception 16, advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
Multiattack. Bite: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft (1d8 + 5) piercing damage, Claws +7 to hit, reach 5 ft (2d6 + 5) slashing damage.

The above bear has 84 bonus HP's every single Short Rest. Of which there are at least 2 (on average) every adventuring day, plus a Long rest in the morning.

A Fighter 6 can only hope to match the above in terms of DPR, and survivability. If a NPC Druid attacks the Fighter in a melee fight, the Fighter would probably lose.

And remember; underneath all that combat crunch, is a full 9th level caster, and amazing variety thanks to Wildshape (can fly and swim at this level if the Druid wants to).

I dont want the Druid invalidating the Fighter in... a fight, and Im finding it really hard to balance encounters appropriately.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 09:27 PM

That's 3rd level, where druids can get multiattack (via brown bear) sooner than a fighter (an oversight on WoTC's part). Tell them no multi-attack till 5, and the fighters will either compete or pull ahead depending on the fighter.

Now youre nerfing the Druid with house rules.

By 8th level or so, when the druid is running out of good beasts to turn into, he'll start to run into bigger problems than the fighter had at 3. By 9, the moon druid will have very little to contribute beyond spells, unless you've homebrewed some useful CR 3 beasts. He'll have to wait until he gets his next spike at 18,

You're missing the biggest spike of all - elemental forms come online at 10th.

Meaning he gets 2 attacks at 2d8+5 per round, +8 to hit, a ton of immunities and resistances and an extra 126 HP with resistance (half damage) against all non magical attacks - every single short rest.

Effectively an extra 252 HP every short rest. Or going by standard encounter and rest pacing, 756-1008 HP per adventuring day.

By the time the Fighter catches up to the Druid at 9th level, the Druid pulls away again at 10th. Drastically.

Then he gets another spike at 20, when he can suddenly tank a tarrasque indefinitely...which is also dumb.

Something I am actually trying to nerf with Temp HP.

Giant2005

2015-02-02, 09:33 PM

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 09:49 PM

A Bear cant grapple, shove or disarm?

Stat me up a Fighter 6 (point buy).

I'll do the same with a Druid 6, and show you how the class invalidates the Fighter.

Human Moon Druid (Polar Bear form). S8, D10, C18, W17, I12, Ch10, Feat: Resilient (Con), + 1C/W, Athletics, Perception, other skills. HP 57, Spells cast: Barkskin.

Armor Class 16, Hit Points 42 (5d10 + 15), Speed 40 ft., swim 30 ft.
STR 20 +5
DEX 10 +0
CON 16 +3
INT 12 +1
WIS 17 +3
CHA 10 +0
Skills Perception +6, Athletics +8
Senses passive Perception 16, advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
Multiattack. Bite: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft (1d8 + 5) piercing damage, Claws +7 to hit, reach 5 ft (2d6 + 5) slashing damage.

The above bear has 84 bonus HP's every single Short Rest. Of which there are at least 2 (on average) every adventuring day, plus a Long rest in the morning.

A Fighter 6 can only hope to match the above in terms of DPR, and survivability. If a NPC Druid attacks the Fighter in a melee fight, the Fighter would probably lose.

And remember; underneath all that combat crunch, is a full 9th level caster, and amazing variety thanks to Wildshape (can fly and swim at this level if the Druid wants to).

I dont want the Druid invalidating the Fighter in... a fight, and Im finding it really hard to balance encounters appropriately.

See, you say all of that, and it makes me feel like you haven't actually DM'd a game with an actual fighter and druid in it. If you have, then your druid player is far better at making choices than the fighter is.

Let me ask a few questions here:

Where has your druid seen a polar bear? Did he come into the game with that knowledge?
Your fighter should have 18 in a primary stat and therefore +7 to hit. He should also be doing 3 attacks per round, or two at 2d6 or 1d12, all of them with a +4 strength or DEX mod. He does more damage. How does that not beat the druid's multiattack damage?
Is a potential 21 AC (shield + plate + armored or Dual Wielder feat), on top of possibly defensive duelist by this point, not a better tank than this bear? I'd argue it is, if that's what the fighter wants to be.
Does the sheer DPR, versatility, and guaranteed scalability of a crossbow expert not outdo this druid's combat potential at every level? (hint: yes it does, unless you're only concerned with soaking up hits)
As the (assumed) DM, can you not come up with any way to counter this druid? (hint: CHA and INT saves, you're not trying hard enough)

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point by now. There are a TON of things the fighter does much better than the druid, regardless of build. The number of ways in which a fighter can beat a moon druid's combat prowess only grows with level. The only thing moon druids excel at, at all levels, is soaking up damage. And there are easy ways to fix that.

Now youre nerfing the Druid with house rules.
I've been proposing this specific houserule since before this thread, and have referenced versions of it numerous times throughout.

You're missing the biggest spike of all - elemental forms come online at 10th.

Meaning he gets 2 attacks at 2d8+5 per round, +8 to hit, a ton of immunities and resistances and an extra 126 HP with resistance (half damage) against all non magical attacks - every single short rest.

Effectively an extra 252 HP every short rest. Or going by standard encounter and rest pacing, 756-1008 HP per adventuring day.

By the time the Fighter catches up to the Druid at 9th level, the Druid pulls away again at 10th. Drastically.

A spike at 10th level which the fighter beats at 11. A typical greatsword fighter at 11 is making three attacks per round, and rerolling 1's and 2's. That assumes no reaction or bonus attacks, and also assumes no extra crit, or spells, or die used by archetypes. It also assumes no action surge, or any of the other many things a fighter can do. In all likelihood, the fighter will have a 20 in his main stat by this point since he's had 3 ASIs, will get another at 12, and might have a bonus feat from picking human. But even assuming an 18, he's got a +8 to hit, +4 damage per hit, and averages more than 33 damage (after rerolling 1's and 2's) per round, again before bonus or anything else is facored in. 2d8+5 twice is 28 DPR. So even the most basic of basic fighters, with NO ARCHETYPE, wins the DPR war.

And there are many, MANY ways a fighter could increase his damage, or become a better tank, or support his allies if he so chose. The druid gets one concentration spell and then shapeshifts into a form that's hopefully useful in the given context.

Oh, and did you forget that the druid must have seen an air elemental first in order to shift into it? This is 100% up to the DM

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 09:53 PM

Malifice

2015-02-02, 09:58 PM

Aside from the obvious balance issues from buffing the already top of the line Druid, one thing to consider that I don't think anyone has yet (I know I hadn't) is that adding bonuses to low level Beasts or uncoupling the rolls from the Beast's natural abilities it much more of a buff to the Land Druid than Moon. Changes along that line would essentially render the Moon Druid obsolete while empowering the Land Druid that was already a caster on par with the best casters in the game.

My proposed changes are to fix the onion druid effect, and balance the Druid vs the Martials by forcing the Druid to retain its own HP and HD when wild shaped, and instead granting Temp HP equal to Druid level (x2).

This balances the bonus HP with other similar abilities (second wind, lay on hands etc)..

Onion Druid 20's now get 40 HP per round instead of 126, and being temp HP, it cant be restored via healing magic.

Also at 2nd level when Mood Druids become the campaign wreckers they are at present, with this change they gain 4 temp HP twice per short rest (on par with the Fighters second wind) instead of the 60+ HP they gain per short rest under RAW.

Only leaves me with the problem of balancing the AC (its too low at low levels). I'm looking at a few options at present.

Malifice

2015-02-02, 10:03 PM

[LIST]
Where has your druid seen a polar bear? Did he come into the game with that knowledge?
Your fighter should have 18 in a primary stat and therefore +7 to hit. He should also be doing 3 attacks per round, or two at 2d6 or 1d12, all of them with a +4 strength or DEX mod. He does more damage. How does that not beat the druid's multiattack damage?
Is a potential 21 AC (shield + plate + armored or Dual Wielder feat), on top of possibly defensive duelist by this point, not a better tank than this bear? I'd argue it is, if that's what the fighter wants to be.

Schrdingers Fighter. AC 21, using a great sword, shield and a dual wielder. Looks like he is in full plate and using a shield and defensive duelist as well.

Pick one and stat him out.

As the (assumed) DM, can you not come up with any way to counter this druid? (hint: CHA and INT saves, you're not trying hard enough)

Because Fighters get good Cha and Int saves do they? The Druid will have (on average) better Cha and Int as he can nerf his physcial stats.

A spike at 10th level which the fighter beats at 11. A typical greatsword fighter at 11 is making three attacks per round, and rerolling 1's and 2's. That assumes no reaction or bonus attacks, and also assumes no extra crit, or spells, or die used by archetypes. It also assumes no action surge, or any of the other many things a fighter can do. In all likelihood, the fighter will have a 20 in his main stat by this point since he's had 3 ASIs, will get another at 12, and might have a bonus feat from picking human. But even assuming an 18, he's got a +8 to hit, +4 damage per hit, and averages more than 33 damage (after rerolling 1's and 2's) per round, again before bonus or anything else is facored in. 2d8+5 twice is 28 DPR. So even the most basic of basic fighters, with NO ARCHETYPE, wins the DPR war.

The Fighter is doing more damage (just) on average than the Druid in EE form, but he cant defeat it. The Druid wins the fight due to simple attrition as he has 4 times the HP of the Fighter (including resistance), and that all refreshes on a short rest.

Giant2005

2015-02-02, 10:04 PM

Easy-Lee, I think you are putting too much of an emphasis on DPR. Sure a level 11 Fighter will do more damage than a level 10 Druid (I bet that still holds true even if the Druid uses magic) but the Druid has a lot more going on for it. All those immunities and extra features the Elemental brings to the table in addition to the 5th level spellcasting the Druid has natively, adds up to a whole lot more than 5 DPR.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 10:04 PM

My proposed changes are to fix the onion druid effect, and balance the Druid vs the Martials by forcing the Druid to retain its own HP and HD when wild shaped, and instead granting Temp HP equal to Druid level (x2).

This balances the bonus HP with other similar abilities (second wind, lay on hands etc)..

Onion Druid 20's now get 40 HP per round instead of 126, and being temp HP, it cant be restored via healing magic.

Also at 2nd level when Mood Druids become the campaign wreckers they are at present, with this change they gain 4 temp HP twice per short rest (on par with the Fighters second wind) instead of the 60+ HP they gain per short rest under RAW.

Only leaves me with the problem of balancing the AC (its too low at low levels). I'm looking at a few options at present.

No one will ever play a moon druid under those rules. I strongly encourage you to play one before actually deciding how good they are. The lack of scaling skills, scaling to-hit, scaling DCs on abilities, scaling HP, need to conserve shapeshift until its needed, inability to wear armor in native form (which almost requires wasting concentration on barkskin), and a wide variety of other factors are crippling to the class. Onion-druiding is the only that moon druids do which other classes can't do better.

It's also the most DM-dependent class, since the DM controls which beasts you've ever actually seen. If most of your campaign happens in cities, or a particular region (such as the desert), or in caves, or on other planes, or (God forbid!) in dungeons, then the druid is going to have a hard time encountering that mammoth, or polar bear, or elemental.

See my homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396318-Wildshape-Homebrew&p=18756564#post18756564), which I believe fixes all of the moon druid problems in just a few updates.

Giant2005

2015-02-02, 10:24 PM

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 10:32 PM

The only one of those things that is actually relevant imo is the need to conserve shapeshift until needed. The rest falsely suggests a reliance on Wildshape that is never true for the full-casting Druid. Wildshape is a bonus - even if its abilities don't scale, anything it does before the Druid is knocked back into his original form is additional above what the now reverted and fully scaling Druid will be doing. The Druid essentially begins the fight as a fully scaled being after already having done something in the Wildshape form. Sure it might feel weaker when things are going right but during a difficult encounter, it feels immensely powerful - halfway through the Fight after your Wildshape uses have been expended, you are a fresh Druid that would be on par with your allies in power except that they have taken damage and you haven't.

If you're a land druid, sure. If you're not, then you're a full caster with no archetype features, whatsoever. That means no scaling cantrip damage, no decent armor, no access to a huge variety of spells (wizard, who gets access to over twice as many spells), no metamagic (sorcerer), no decent armor or domains (cleric) nor a decent method around having good armor (warlock, wizard, and sorcerer), no class features that let you pull spells from other classes (bard), no invocations to let you have a variety of always-on powers (warlock), no...anything really.

That means that for all of those levels where wildshape isn't contributing much (most of them), and you're too scared to use it in case you need that HP later, a moon druid is nothing but the barest-of-bare-bones full caster. There isn't a single feature this archetype has which you aren't afraid to use until you actually need it; after all, spells are once-a-day, and don't always do everything you want them to. Spend one of your once-a-day slots on a heal that it turned out nobody needed after all, or an entangle that gets resisted by everything, and you'll know frustration.

Once again, I suggest you play one before you come here talking about how great they are.

Giant2005

2015-02-02, 11:29 PM

If you're a land druid, sure. If you're not, then you're a full caster with no archetype features, whatsoever. That means no scaling cantrip damage, no decent armor, no access to a huge variety of spells (wizard, who gets access to over twice as many spells), no metamagic (sorcerer), no decent armor or domains (cleric) nor a decent method around having good armor (warlock, wizard, and sorcerer), no class features that let you pull spells from other classes (bard), no invocations to let you have a variety of always-on powers (warlock), no...anything really.

That means that for all of those levels where wildshape isn't contributing much (most of them), and you're too scared to use it in case you need that HP later, a moon druid is nothing but the barest-of-bare-bones full caster. There isn't a single feature this archetype has which you aren't afraid to use until you actually need it; after all, spells are once-a-day, and don't always do everything you want them to. Spend one of your once-a-day slots on a heal that it turned out nobody needed after all, or an entangle that gets resisted by everything, and you'll know frustration.

Once again, I suggest you play one before you come here talking about how great they are.

Firstly, please stop declaring that everyone that disagrees with you hasn't played the class. It comes off as particularly arrogant in that any statement made contrary to your own has to be made in ignorance and more than that, it comes off as hypocritic considering you have admitted in this thread that you use your own house-ruled Druid as opposed to the genuine article that the rest of us have experienced.
Secondly, you have basically described the mechanic of spellcasting to us but it seems that in your mind the downsides of the spellcasting mechanic only seem to apply to Druids? Granted Warlocks are an exception and may suffer less of the downsides (Or more) depending on how your individual game flows. The rest of the casters however have the same issue with spell slots that the Druid has although I guess the Wizard's Arcane Recovery is a very minor advantage.
You are also right about the Moon Druid subclass offering nothing to enhance spellcasting but that isn't unusual - very few subclasses offer anything to spellcasting. But having said that, you essentially just listed a bunch of class specifics and ignored everything the Druid has going for it. Such as the AC which you wrongly attributed to the Warlock Wizard and Sorcerer - the Druid is almost certainly to have a higher AC than each of those classes due to Bakskin + Shield which equals the highest possible AC they can muster but even without the shield surpasses the realistic expectation of their AC (With their casting stat and constitution being the priority, it is very unlikely that they are going to have a 3+ Dex modifier). That is of course a minor thing but it is just one of many - Druids have many abilities other classes would kill for such as Shilelalagh which is desirable enough that many builds involve stealing that ability for their own class and of course Contagion which is shared with the Cleric but also powerful enough to have inspired many threads about its sheer craziness. Craziness enough to instil desire in any class. I'm sure there are many other reasons to play a Druid but I'm not going to comb through all of the options and post them here - the point is there are reasons to play a Druid outside of Wildshape and as such, any time spent in Wildshape before being knocked back into the realm of being a Druid is a bonus.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:02 AM

No one will ever play a moon druid under those rules. I strongly encourage you to play one before actually deciding how good they are. The lack of scaling skills, scaling to-hit, scaling DCs on abilities, scaling HP, need to conserve shapeshift until its needed, inability to wear armor in native form (which almost requires wasting concentration on barkskin), and a wide variety of other factors are crippling to the class. Onion-druiding is the only that moon druids do which other classes can't do better.

I have played with one and DM'd one. I doubt you have.

As written they are broken beyond all repair. Something you seem to agree with me on.

At second level they outclass every other class in the game. Playing HoTDQ we were in constant fear for our lives. Then the Druid hit 2nd level and it trivialized all encounters. The problems got worse at 3rd level with Barkskin online.

At 2nd level in Bear form he gets a pool of over 60 HP every single short rest. Going by standard encounter and rest pacing that's a pool of between 180-240 HP per adventuring day. On top of his normal HP and healing himself as a bonus action with spells. He's doing more DPR than the Fighter, is Large size, and moves faster. His only weakness is his low AC but with a 60 HP buffer every short rest this matters not.

Three 2nd level Fighters couldnt outfight the 2nd level Bear druid in melee. They would have to deal over 80 points of damage to kill it, and its dropping 1 of them per round in return.

The DM has to increase encounter difficulty substantially to challenge it. Then when it goes down, the rest of the party invariably follow. It makes balancing encounters extremely difficult.

At 3rd level it gets worse. The Druid not only has around 90 HP per short rest, but it also has an AC of 16. Thats the same AC as a chainmail wearing Fighter. DPR is equal to a GWM/GWS 2hander with superiority dice and action surging thanks to Multiattack. The only difference is the Druid has an extra 60 HP to fall back on every short rest (plus spell healing as bonus actions), while the Fighter gets 1d10+3 via second wind, once.

The Druid retains the advantage in combat due to its massive amount of HP right up until 6th level when Fighters finally start to catch up. Fighters get to enjoy being equal to the Druid for the next 3 levels, because at 10th level the Druid leapfrogs them again when elemental forms come online.

And dont get me started on Onion Druids at 20th level.

The biggest issue (metagame) is the obscene amounts of 'ablative HP' that Druids get per short rest. This was an intentional design feature, but it makes balance for those levels (and balance between martials and casters) nigh on impossible to get right.

Scaling back the bonus ablative HP of the wild shaped forms, and slightly increasing AC to compensate along the lines of bounded accuracy makes it a much easier thing to regulate and plan for in encounters and balances the Druids against their martial companions.

Eslin

2015-02-03, 12:04 AM

I have played with one and DM'd one. I doubt you have.

As written they are broken beyond all repair. Something you seem to agree with me on.

At second level they outclass every other class in the game. Playing HoTDQ we were in constant fear for our lives. Then the Druid hit 2nd level and it trivialized all encounters. The problems got worse at 3rd level with Barkskin online.

At 2nd level in Bear form he gets a pool of over 60 HP every single short rest. Going by standard encounter and rest pacing that's a pool of between 180-240 HP per adventuring day. On top of his normal HP and healing himself as a bonus action with spells. He's doing more DPR than the Fighter, is Large size, and moves faster. His only weakness is his low AC but with a 60 HP buffer every short rest this matters not.

Three 2nd level Fighters couldnt outfight the 2nd level Bear druid in melee. They would have to deal over 80 points of damage to kill it, and its dropping 1 of them per round in return.

The DM has to increase encounter difficulty substantially to challenge it. Then when it goes down, the rest of the party invariably follow. It makes balancing encounters extremely difficult.

At 3rd level it gets worse. The Druid not only has around 90 HP per short rest, but it also has an AC of 16. Thats the same AC as a chainmail wearing Fighter. DPR is equal to a GWM/GWS 2hander with superiority dice and action surging thanks to Multiattack. The only difference is the Druid has an extra 60 HP to fall back on every short rest (plus spell healing as bonus actions), while the Fighter gets 1d10+3 via second wind, once.

The Druid retains the advantage in combat due to its massive amount of HP right up until 6th level when Fighters finally start to catch up. Fighters get to enjoy being equal to the Druid for the next 3 levels, because at 10th level the Druid leapfrogs them again when elemental forms come online.

And dont get me started on Onion Druids at 20th level.

The biggest issue (metagame) is the obscene amounts of 'ablative HP' that Druids get per short rest. This was an intentional design feature, but it makes balance for those levels (and balance between martials and casters) nigh on impossible to get right.

Scaling back the bonus ablative HP of the wild shaped forms, and slightly increasing AC to compensate along the lines of bounded accuracy makes it a much easier thing to regulate and plan for in encounters and balances the Druids against their martial companions.

And what are they turning into at level 10 that is causing them to leapfrog ahead?

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 12:12 AM

Firstly, please stop declaring that everyone that disagrees with you hasn't played the class

I'm going off of your replies, specifically the ones that make druids seem like gods (which is all of them). Druids are far from gods, especially pre-20.

Secondly, you have basically described the mechanic of spellcasting to us but it seems that in your mind the downsides of the spellcasting mechanic only seem to apply to Druids?

Every full caster archetype, as in all of them, grants either a boon to casting or a major boon to melee, sometimes both. Cleric domains grant extra spells and abilities. Every wizard school grants bonuses to casting. Both sorcerer archetypes grant major casting boons. Even war clerics get new spells, in addition to extra attack. Moon druids get none of this; theirs is the barest of casting options.

Further, the other druid archetype grants major casting boons and new spells. It follows that a moon druid, whose archetype's total focus is on wildshape, ought to have a wildshape that's at least useful at all levels. Instead, moon druids get an ability that spikes in power at some levels, then rapidly lags behind others classes for long stretches. This is unacceptable. In keeping with bounded accuracy, and the trends of every other class and archetype, moon druid wildshape should scale evenly because it's the archetype's entire focus.

Again, as I have stated over and over again, my intent is to smooth the power curve so that moon druids don't have lags and spikes.

You are also right about the Moon Druid subclass offering nothing to enhance spellcasting but that isn't unusual - very few subclasses offer anything to spellcasting.

See above. Every full-casting subclass grants new spells or boons to casting, aside from blade-pact warlocks and valor bards (deliberate attempts to turn those classes into Gishes). And warlocks effectively get two subclasses, the other one being their patron which grants new spells and abilities. Also, valor bards can make a melee attack after casting a spell, which actually does enhance spellcasting in a way (making it something you'll do much more often). So yep, that's all of them.

But having said that, you essentially just listed a bunch of class specifics and ignored everything the Druid has going for it. 1) Such as the AC which you wrongly attributed to the Warlock Wizard and Sorcerer - the Druid is almost certainly to have a higher AC than each of those classes due to Bakskin + Shield which equals the highest possible AC they can muster but even without the shield surpasses the realistic expectation of their AC...Druids have many abilities other classes would kill for such as 2) Shilelalagh which is desirable enough that many builds involve stealing that ability for their own class and of course Contagion which is shared with the Cleric but also powerful enough to have inspired many threads about its sheer craziness. Craziness enough to instil desire in any class. 3) I'm sure there are many other reasons to play a Druid but I'm not going to comb through all of the options and post them here - the point is there are reasons to play a Druid outside of Wildshape and as such, 4) any time spent in Wildshape before being knocked back into the realm of being a Druid is a bonus.

Barkskin takes a spell-slot AND the druid's concentration, and sets their AC to exactly 16 (the exact text says it can't be lower than 16). It does nothing else, and it's a 2nd level spell. In contrast, chainmail + shield = 18. Further, a druid concentrating on barkskin isn't doing much else of note, and can lose it to a bad hit. Druids are otherwise excluded from anything metal, meaning most magic items, the vast majority of armors, and most shields too. So he's not getting much better than that 16 AC any time soon without DM intervention. Wizards, on the other hand, get the actual shield spell on top of mage armor if they want it (no concentration needed). They can also multiclass for armor, unlike druids who explicitly can never use any metal. Did I mention druids have crap for HP? Druids are very much designed with the extra HP from wildshape in mind.
Shillelagh would be useful for a ranger, or other extra-attack class. Druids don't get extra attack, and can't use it in beast form. This is in addition to their low AC, which makes them not want to be on the front lines anyway.
I have combed through the options, and I DM for a moon druid. I know what I'm talking about from experience. There is no reason to play a moon druid over a land druid aside from wildshape. If wildshape is crap, then moon druids are crap.
A bonus upon which the entire moon archetype is based, meaning it should be good. The BM Ranger pet is just a bonus; that doesn't mean it should be crap.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:14 AM

People are missing the Metagame aspects here too.

Moon Druids are expected to be front line combatants, keeping pace with the Martials by spending most of the day in animal form, expending spell slots to keep them in the fight. They are designed to be tanks.

Land druids play a lot more like Wizards or Clerics depending on the circle chosen (with added versatility via wild shape). The added spells make them much better at buffing and/or blasting giving them a more viable and clearly defined combat role. The druid spell list itself is 90 percent utility spells and its not all that impressive compared to the Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Bards and even the Warlocks list.

I don't mind having moon druids in beast form being 80-90 percent as good at fighting as the Fighter (considering they have the extra utility that a Fighter lacks with spell casting and wild shape). That to me feels about right.

The Fighter should have the edge against the Druid in a straight up fight between them. But the Druid should have a bag of nifty tricks (like turning into a bird and flying away, or casting a spell calling down lightning etc) that the Fighter cant match.

As it stands at the moment, no Fighter would ever contemplate going toe to toe with a Druid of the same level in a melee fight, or they would comprehensively lose.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:15 AM

And what are they turning into at level 10 that is causing them to leapfrog ahead?

Sorry, when do the Elemental forms come online? Im at work and dont have the PHB on me.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 12:21 AM

As it stands at the moment, no Fighter would ever contemplate going toe to toe with a Druid of the same level in a melee fight, or they would comprehensively lose.

Only at certain levels. A level 2 fighter or 10 fighter who for some strange reason decides to fight a druid might have trouble. A level 6 or 11 fighter has a much higher attack bonus and number of attacks per round than the druid is going to muster, on top of a considerably better AC plus action surge. More importantly, the fighter at this point has options in combat, such as the BM bag of tricks, eldritch knight's various abilities, and switching to a ranged weapon. The druid's craptastic produce flame cantrip isn't going to compete with a longbow, and none of the druid forms will keep pace with a mounted fighter wielding a lance.

But why are we hung-up on PvP? I've already demonstrated several times that fighters can beat moon druid DPR, AC, and general combat usefulness at most levels, especially if the druid is trying to maintain barkskin.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:23 AM

[LIST=1] Barkskin takes a spell-slot AND the druid's concentration, and sets their AC to exactly 16 (the exact text says it can't be lower than 16). It does nothing else, and it's a 2nd level spell. In contrast, chainmail + shield = 18. Further, a druid concentrating on barkskin isn't doing much else of note, and can lose it to a bad hit.

Sweet.

A 4th level variant human Champion Fighter in Chain mail and shield with Dueling style. Armed with a longsword. Shield master feat. Ill give him stats of 18 in every single stat (just to try and even it up)

+6 to hit (1d8+6) (19-20), AC 18, HP 44 (Action surge, second wind 1d10+4)

Run the numbers - he loses in a fight with a Human (resilient Con) Druid 3 with Barkskin cast.

Every single time.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:25 AM

But why are we hung-up on PvP? I've already demonstrated several times that fighters can beat moon druid DPR, AC, and general combat usefulness at most levels, especially if the druid is trying to maintain barkskin.

No you havent.

Give me a level, any level for a melee fight between a Druid and Fighter, and i'll show you why the Druid would win the fight.

You design the Fighter, and ill do the Druid.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:32 AM

Only at certain levels. A level 2 fighter or 10 fighter who for some strange reason decides to fight a druid might have trouble.

So at these levels at least you agree a Druid out fights... a Fighter? I don't like that outcome.

A level 6 or 11 fighter has a much higher attack bonus and number of attacks per round than the druid is going to muster, on top of a considerably better AC plus action surge.

Irrelevant. The increased DPR and Action surge still doesn't compensate for the Druids increased 'ablative' HP and regeneration by virtue of buring spell slots.

Run the numbers. Fighter 11 v Druid 11, straight fight, toe to toe.

The Druid wins.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 12:34 AM

Sweet.

A 4th level variant human Champion Fighter in Chain mail and shield with Dueling style. Armed with a longsword. Shield master feat. Ill give him stats of 18 in every single stat (just to try and even it up)

+6 to hit (1d8+6) (19-20), AC 18, HP 44 (Action surge, second wind 1d10+4)

Run the numbers - he loses in a fight with a Human (resilient Con) Druid 3 with Barkskin cast.

Every single time.

Once again, you're picking very specific levels where we all agree moon druids have an advantage. Look at the big picture; run those same fights at level 6, or 9, or 11, or 14, or 17. Even better, look at how many more combat options the fighter has at every level, from swapping weapons on to action surges and on to archetype features.

And for the last time, D&D is not PvP.

Giant2005

2015-02-03, 12:34 AM

I'm going off of your replies, specifically the ones that make druids seem like gods (which is all of them). Druids are far from gods, especially pre-20.
Um... No. I don't think Druids are Gods, I think they are full spellcasters with an advantage that sets them a step ahead of all other classes in battle by essentially resetting their zero point to a point mid-battle when everything else is already damaged.

Every full caster archetype, as in all of them, grants either a boon to casting or a major boon to melee, sometimes both. Cleric domains grant extra spells and abilities. Every wizard school grants bonuses to casting. Both sorcerer archetypes grant major casting boons. Even war clerics get new spells, in addition to extra attack. Moon druids get none of this; theirs is the barest of casting options.
Cleric Domains, Warlock Patrons, Dragonblooded Sorcerer's and Evocation Wizards all gain benefits to spellcasting and the free spells offered to Warlocks and Clerics are of very limited use considering the lack of choice and already being limited by Spell Slots. The rest offer abilities completely independent of spellcasting.

Further, the other druid archetype grants major casting boons and new spells. It follows that a moon druid, whose archetype's total focus is on wildshape, ought to have a wildshape that's at least useful at all levels.
It is useful at all levels and undeniably so. As already expressed those Wild Shape uses are in addition to being a full spellcaster - once they are used you are a completely undamaged full spellcaster with an already damaged enemy. Using them is almost always superior to fighting a battle without using them at all levels. The only exception would be if you needed to kill something in a hurry, then you might be better off forgoing the Wildshape use and nuking with spells but the very fact that you have that option is in itself an advantage.

A bonus upon which the entire moon archetype is based, meaning it should be good. The BM Ranger pet is just a bonus; that doesn't mean it should be crap.

A Beastmaster Ranger has his companion, two attacks and half casting. If that companion is junk then the Ranger has nothing but two attacks and half casting which would make him weaker than any class in the game and far weaker than the full spellcasting Druid even if that Druid didn't use Wildshape. The Ranger companion should ALWAYS be superior to Wildshape and everyone that believes full spellcasting > half casting +1 attack, should agree. And I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that a vast majority of people would rate the spellcasting far superior.

Eslin

2015-02-03, 12:34 AM

Sorry, when do the Elemental forms come online? Im at work and dont have the PHB on me.

10, as you said. The ability only works because it breaks the wild shape rules and lets you transform into CR5 creatures well before you should be able to which somewhat corrects the proficiency and scaling issues.

This is my point - at the points where wild shaping breaks its own rules, it keeps up. At level 2 and 10 you can turn into CR 1 and 5 creatures which are actually useful - at points like 7 and 15, you're falling behind for no reason. It's inconsistent and kind of stupid.

CR = 1/2 druid level, retain your own HP instead of the form replacing it, use your own proficiency bonus instead of the creature's when yours is higher, AC is the higher of yours and the creature's, multiattack can't be used until 5. Solved.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:47 AM

Once again, you're picking very specific levels where we all agree moon druids have an advantage.

You pick a level. Any level. I bet you the Moon Druid of that level wins in a straight up fight with a Fighter of the same level. Feel free to stat out the Fighter; I'll stat out the Druid and we can run the numbers.

And for the last time, D&D is not PvP.

I'm not saying it is. I just don't like have a full caster class, with 100000 times the utility of the Fighter doing the Fighters job better than the Fighter.

Stat out a Fighter at any level. I'll do the same for a Druid. I bet you the Druid beats the Fighter in a straight fight when we run the numbers; and not only against each other, but also against virtually any CR appropriate threat for that level.

And I also bet the Druid also has 20 times more options and utility than the Fighter thanks to wild shape and spells.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 12:50 AM

CR = 1/2 druid level, retain your own HP instead of the form replacing it, use your own proficiency bonus instead of the creature's when yours is higher, AC is the higher of yours and the creature's, multiattack can't be used until 5. Solved.

This probably works well too. I wouldn't be opposed to tacking on Temp HP also (2 x Druid level).

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 12:53 AM

Um... No. I don't think Druids are Gods, I think they are full spellcasters with an advantage that sets them a step ahead of all other classes in battle by essentially resetting their zero point to a point mid-battle when everything else is already damaged.
Wizards get more spells and more boons for casting them, clerics get better armor and domain spells and domain abilities, warlocks get short rest casting and invocations and pact spells, bards get other people's spells and more of them. Land druids get more spells and more boons when casting them. You plan moon druid for wildshape boons.

Druids have lower AC (no armor allowed) than we can expect from any other class. They need the extra HP, or they die quick.

Cleric Domains, Warlock Patrons, Dragonblooded Sorcerer's and Evocation Wizards all gain benefits to spellcasting and the free spells offered to Warlocks and Clerics are of very limited use considering the lack of choice and already being limited by Spell Slots. The rest offer abilities completely independent of spellcasting.

You just said how all of these classes get more casting and casting options, then added how they get other boons independent on whether they cast a spell. All moon druid boons revolve around wildshape.

It is useful at all levels and undeniably so. As already expressed those Wild Shape uses are in addition to being a full spellcaster - once they are used you are a completely undamaged full spellcaster with an already damaged enemy. Using them is almost always superior to fighting a battle without using them at all levels. The only exception would be if you needed to kill something in a hurry, then you might be better off forgoing the Wildshape use and nuking with spells but the very fact that you have that option is in itself an advantage.

I think you're underestimating the speed at which a druid's forms can be destroyed. Just for reference, for a mean DM to rub the druid's nose right in it, the CR 6 mammoth can do over 50 damage in an average round. He'll hit the druid, too, because the highest the druid's AC is going is 16 and he has few options for evading the attack (in comparison to many casters, such as wizards). So his form will be dead, and he'll be prone and in his base form by the next turn. That's just one way in which a druid's extra HP can stop mattering in the face of a lack of defense.

A Beastmaster Ranger has his companion, two attacks and half casting. If that companion is junk then the Ranger has nothing but two attacks and half casting which would make him weaker than any class in the game and far weaker than the full spellcasting Druid even if that Druid didn't use Wildshape. The Ranger companion should ALWAYS be superior to Wildshape and everyone that believes full spellcasting > half casting +1 attack, should agree. And I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that a vast majority of people would rate the spellcasting far superior.

Aww, did you go and assume one base class was superior to another? How funny. See my BM guide (in my sig) for a way the presumed weakest subclass can have full-time flight at level 3 along with free-action dodges, dashes, and disengages. Then we can talk about how imbalanced druids are.

Rangers don't really have half-casting and half attack progression, either. They have half-casting, extra attack, and either companion attack options or things like colossus slayer and volley. Those benefits keep them roughly in-line with paladins. Then there's swiftquiver. So their attack progression is actually about 3/4 fighter, and their casting half of druid (along with some unique spells). To compensate, they miss out on many fighter options, higher druid spells, and druid features like wildshape.

In addition, you just said a tamed CR 1/4 creature should be superior to magically attuned nature worshipper turning into a CR 6 or lower. Nice.

Eslin

2015-02-03, 12:54 AM

You pick a level. Any level. I bet you the Moon Druid of that level wins in a straight up fight with a Fighter of the same level. Feel free to stat out the Fighter; I'll stat out the Druid and we can run the numbers.
14. What are the magic item rules?

I'm not saying it is. I just don't like have a full caster class, with 100000 times the utility of the Fighter doing the Fighters job better than the Fighter.

Stat out a Fighter at any level. I'll do the same for a Druid. I bet you the Druid beats the Fighter in a straight fight when we run the numbers; and not only against each other, but also against virtually any CR appropriate threat for that level.

And I also bet the Druid also has 20 times more options and utility than the Fighter thanks to wild shape and spells.
That's partially the fighter's fault - unlike the well designed classes like paladin, rogue and monk the fighter can't really do much of anything.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 01:00 AM

14. What are the magic item rules?

None allowed ;)

Melee only.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 01:06 AM

14. What are the magic item rules?

Your best bet will be with Eldritch Knight (and get some buff time).

Not sure if Magic weapon is a wizard spell they can get? That plus Mirror image and Haste could get the Fighter 14 in with a very good chance.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 01:07 AM

You pick a level. Any level. I bet you the Moon Druid of that level wins in a straight up fight with a Fighter of the same level. Feel free to stat out the Fighter; I'll stat out the Druid and we can run the numbers.

Not PvP, that's A. B, my fighter took two levels of rogue for cunning action and has the mobile feat and a heavy crossbow. Good luck even keeping up. Or, if you want a full fighter, I'll just buy a horse for 120' move per turn plus full lance attacks at 10' range. See how ridiculous PvP can get?

I'm not saying it is. I just don't like have a full caster class, with 100000 times the utility of the Fighter doing the Fighters job better than the Fighter.
Let's address that. Moon druid utility is as follows:

Stealth (presumed rat or mosquito form - fighter can ask wizard for invis, or cast it himself (eldritch knight), or take the stealth skill from a background and have a higher stealth check from his DEX focus
Flight - fighter can ask for a levitate or flight, or cast it himself (eldritch knight). That's if he really decides it's necessary
Aquatic form - see above, these kinds of items also tend to be common when a DM wants an aquatic campaign
Athletics? - fighter
Size changing? There's a spell for that, and eldritch knights can get it if they don't want to let someone else cast it or just find a potion.
What else can animals do that a fighter can't? Seriously, find something. Usually, animal forms just pick from a few stock skills and have some sort of action, like web shot from spider (inferior to just grappling) or pounce from panther (the only way it's getting a bonus attack, which fighter can get much more reliably).

In addition, if the fighter's job is dealing damage, the fighter is better at it 90% of the time. Bears have a momentary time to shine, then it's back to the fighter being on top. If the fighter's job is tanking, he has a higher AC and more options for making sure foes attack him between protection style and all of the stuff BM gets (BM would be the best fighter tank option, in all likelihood). He also can't be save-or-sucked as easily, due to indomitable. But sure, a level 20 druid can tank a mindless tarrasque better.

Stat out a Fighter at any level. I'll do the same for a Druid. I bet you the Druid beats the Fighter in a straight fight when we run the numbers; and not only against each other, but also against virtually any CR appropriate threat for that level.

CR6 mammoth. My fighter's on a horse and wielding a heavy crossbow, so he wins automatically. Good luck. Even if you win, you didn't win as fast as the fighter who can easily afford to buy (or rent) a horse.

How about CR2 gelatinous cube? That's going to be a long fight, but once again the fighter will win faster if he thought ahead and brought range. If the druid gets eaten trying to melee, there's a very real possibility none of his forms will be able to break free.

And I also bet the Druid also has 20 times more options and utility than the Fighter thanks to wild shape and spells.

Spells? Probably so, but that's another debate. But with moon druids, the entire archetype's focus is wildshape. That means it should be useful, and if it's going to be useful then it should scale evenly. See my homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396318-Wildshape-Homebrew&p=18756564#post18756564)(which I've linked to many times in this thread, and designed based off of this thread) for my idea of how to achieve that.

In addition, wildshape utility is not nearly as great as people claim it is (even I used to think this, before I DM'd for one). Most of the ways of using it revolve around stealth, spiderclimb, or impersonating someone's dog. The fighter can match the first two with items, abilities, and spells if he's an eldritch knight. For the last...sheesh that's niche, go right ahead druid.

Eslin

2015-02-03, 01:10 AM

Your best bet will be with Eldritch Knight (and get some buff time).

Not sure if Magic weapon is a wizard spell they can get? That plus Mirror image and Haste could get the Fighter 14 in with a very good chance.

Magic weapon's a concentration spell, can't stack it with haste. And yeah, if I was going to go with battlemaster I'd go earlier on when they're more useful. Is multiclassing allowed? I usually multiclass things with a level or two of fighter, but given that I am a fighter I'd usually use a level or two of something else.

Giant2005

2015-02-03, 01:12 AM

Aww, did you go and assume one base class was superior to another? How funny. See my BM guide (in my sig) for a way the presumed weakest subclass can have full-time flight at level 3 along with free-action dodges, dashes, and disengages. Then we can talk about how imbalanced druids are.
I am most certainly not in the camp of Beastmasters being weak - I am a massive advocate of Beastmasters and have come to their defense in numerous threads that have claimed to be sub-par. I'd be willing to declare them one of the most powerful classes in the game.
However, without their companion they are reduced to the weakest Martial character in the game which makes them far more reliant on their subclass than the full casting Druid as opposed to your previous claim.

In addition, you just said a tamed CR 1/4 creature should be superior to magically attuned nature worshipper turning into a CR 6 or lower. Nice.
It absolutely should be superior to the Druid's Wildshape. Without his Wildshape the Druid has full spellcasting to rely on and the Ranger has very little going for it without its companion. That companion is his primary form of attack and as such should be more powerful than the Druid's option which is one of two potent combat options available to him. It is basic balancing, less options means those options should be stronger.

Eslin

2015-02-03, 01:15 AM

I am most certainly not in the camp of Beastmasters being weak - I am a massive advocate of Beastmasters and have come to their defense in numerous threads that have claimed to be sub-par. I'd be willing to declare them one of the most powerful classes in the game.
However, without their companion they are reduced to the weakest Martial character in the game which makes them far more reliant on their subclass than the full casting Druid as opposed to your previous claim.
I'd be willing to declare you wrong. Second worst subclass in the game after champion, the only possible use is flying around on a giant bat as a halfling. They're the weakest martial class in the game no matter what, they're flat out not as useful as anyone else.

It absolutely should be superior to the Druid's Wildshape. Without his Wildshape the Druid has full spellcasting to rely on and the Ranger has very little going for it without its companion. That companion is his primary form of attack and as such should be more powerful than the Druid's option which is one of two potent combat options available to him. It is basic balancing, less options means those options should be stronger.
But the beast sucks. Why would we compare it to anything? We keep comparing the druid to ranger and fighter, and nobody should be forced down anywhere near their level of terrible.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 01:18 AM

Not PvP, that's A. B, my fighter took two levels of rogue for cunning action and has the mobile feat and a heavy crossbow. Good luck even keeping up. Or, if you want a full fighter, I'll just buy a horse for 120' move per turn plus full lance attacks at 10' range. See how ridiculous PvP can get?

Yeah, but now youre just being obtuse and dealing with kiting and the like.

The point being in melee combat, the druid... wins.

Let's address that. Moon druid utility is as follows:

Stealth (presumed rat or mosquito form - fighter can ask wizard for invis, or cast it himself (eldritch knight), or take the stealth skill from a background and have a higher stealth check from his DEX focus
Flight - fighter can ask for a levitate or flight, or cast it himself (eldritch knight). That's if he really decides it's necessary
Aquatic form - see above, these kinds of items also tend to be common when a DM wants an aquatic campaign
Athletics? - fighter
Size changing? There's a spell for that, and eldritch knights can get it if they don't want to let someone else cast it or just find a potion.
What else can animals do that a fighter can't? Seriously, find something. Usually, animal forms just pick from a few stock skills and have some sort of action, like web shot from spider (inferior to just grappling) or pounce from panther (the only way it's getting a bonus attack, which fighter can get much more reliably).

In addition, if the fighter's job is dealing damage, the fighter is better at it 90% of the time. Bears have a momentary time to shine, then it's back to the fighter being on top. If the fighter's job is tanking, he has a higher AC and more options for making sure foes attack him between protection style and all of the stuff BM gets (BM would be the best fighter tank option, in all likelihood). He also can't be save-or-sucked as easily, due to indomitable. But sure, a level 20 druid can tank a mindless tarrasque better.

You forgot Spells.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 01:26 AM

But the beast sucks. Why would we compare it to anything? We keep comparing the druid to ranger and fighter, and nobody should be forced down anywhere near their level of terrible.

That made me laugh.

I'll reiterate that my intentions, from the beginning, were to give moon druids a consistent power curve to match other classes. Their casting helps with that, though their full casting is as weak as full casting gets with their limited spell list, lack of at-will options, lack of boons, and general lack of anything related to casting besides casting itself (from a spell list less than half the size of a wizard's).

For these reasons, and because of the nature of the archetype, the moon druid's power should be central to wildshape. That means wildshape should be comparable to a partial fighter at all levels in terms of attack, useful beast abilities, and how many attacks we can expect the beast form(s) to soak up.

Beast AC can be fiddled with via the right items and (potential) barding. But RAW offers no way to either increase the moon druid's to-hit or beast DCs, which is why I focused on those things first.
RAW offers no penalties to just letting forms die, either, which is silly and is why I focused on that next.
RAW allows moon druids to wield multiattack at 2, three levels before anyone else, which isn't a problem for long but is a problem which I addressed in my game and my homebrew.
Druids dying in a form and shifting right back into that form is cheesing and seems like poor design to me, which is why I addressed this in my homebrew.
And druids have very limited wildshape, having to pick the exact two times they want to use it per short rest, and they can't switch out to cast a needed spell. Having to worry about when to use the archetype features in addition to when to use the once-a-day spells was too much to worry about, I felt, which is why I addressed this last.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 01:29 AM

Yeah, but now youre just being obtuse and dealing with kiting and the like.

The point being in melee combat, the druid... wins.

Polearm master + sentinel beats most druid forms, and you can guarantee the fighter is hitting that AC. The raw damage output of a properly-specialized greatsword fighter will quickly overwhelm most druid forms, too, particularly after action surge.

You forgot Spells.

All casters, including eldritch knights, have spells. As far as casting goes, druids have one of the most limited pools, with few attack options. Moon druids are further limited by being unable to cast in their coveted shapeshifted forms until very late, and further having no boons to casting.

If you're going to argue that full casting of any calibur is superior to the sheer number of attacks and options fighters have at their disposal, this really isn't the thread for that. But there are plenty of threads talking about how many options casters have, particularly outside of combat, where that point could be debated.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 02:01 AM

Polearm master + sentinel beats most druid forms, and you can guarantee the fighter is hitting that AC. The raw damage output of a properly-specialized greatsword fighter will quickly overwhelm most druid forms, too, particularly after action surge.

So you keep saying, and so I keep saying isnt true.

Prove it.

If you're going to argue that full casting of any calibur is superior to the sheer number of attacks and options fighters have at their disposal, this really isn't the thread for that. But there are plenty of threads talking about how many options casters have, particularly outside of combat, where that point could be debated.

Thats not what I am arguing at all.

When you get what I am arguing come back to me.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 02:13 AM

Magic weapon's a concentration spell, can't stack it with haste. And yeah, if I was going to go with battlemaster I'd go earlier on when they're more useful. Is multiclassing allowed? I usually multiclass things with a level or two of fighter, but given that I am a fighter I'd usually use a level or two of something else.

If we're multi classing I may go with Druid 10/ Paladin 4

Gives me another use for those 1-6th level spell slots

Smite + Multi attack + hunters mark + vengance (advantage on attacks)

Can Elementals wear armor and use shields?

Talderas

2015-02-03, 08:20 AM

The number of attacks and general bonus I proposed is less than what blade-pact warlocks, evoker wizards, and sorcerers are capable of doing. Three attacks, with one of them being bonus, is in-line with war clerics.

A blade-pact warlock gets two attacks with his melee weapon. Evoker wizards or dragon lineage sorcerers get to add their casting attribute to wizard evocations and element spells respectively so neither of them could take magic initiate and pickup eldritch blast to apply it to that like a blast-lock so one of the best options for them to apply their casting modifier multiple times in a round is through a spell like Scorching Ray, which conveniently isn't a cantrip.

--

A level 6 druid relies totally on his form's base attack bonus, doesn't have bonus actions outside of those offered by his form, and will have a much lower attack modifier than the fighter in all likelihood. It's not like new CR beasts just pop up exactly when the druid levels, after all. Also, barkskin would constitute the druid's one concentration, has a limited duration, and can be removed by getting hit with the wrong attack.

A level 6 druid has plenty of spell slots, we're talking four 1st, three 2nd, three 3rd, and two 4th plus their infinite cantrip usage on top of the wildform attacks. What you are consistently trying to do, which should not and does not need to be done, is bring a single feature of a druid up to par with the entire toolkit of a class.

--

If you're a land druid, sure. If you're not, then you're a full caster with no archetype features, whatsoever. That means no scaling cantrip damage, no decent armor, no access to a huge variety of spells (wizard, who gets access to over twice as many spells), no metamagic (sorcerer), no decent armor or domains (cleric) nor a decent method around having good armor (warlock, wizard, and sorcerer), no class features that let you pull spells from other classes (bard), no invocations to let you have a variety of always-on powers (warlock), no...anything really.

Cantrip damage scales with character level. It doesn't scale with class level and it's damage scaling is certainly not limited to full casters because a barbarian that takes magic initiate gets scaling cantrip damage.

--

Every full caster archetype, as in all of them, grants either a boon to casting or a major boon to melee, sometimes both. Cleric domains grant extra spells and abilities. Every wizard school grants bonuses to casting. Both sorcerer archetypes grant major casting boons. Even war clerics get new spells, in addition to extra attack. Moon druids get none of this; theirs is the barest of casting options.

None of the warlock's patrons grant a major boon to melee or spellcasting, unless you count an expanded spell list to choose from when leveling to be a major boon. A wild magic sorcerer only gets a boon at level 18 that can be used once per day. A draconic lineage sorcerer only gets to add charisma to the damage of spells that matches his ancestry.

--

Wizards get more spells and more boons for casting them, clerics get better armor and domain spells and domain abilities, warlocks get short rest casting and invocations and pact spells, bards get other people's spells and more of them. Land druids get more spells and more boons when casting them. You plan moon druid for wildshape boons.

What? No. This is entirely wrong. Wizards do not get more spells. Every 9th level caster has the exact same number of spells they can cast. The druid and the wizard prepare the exact same number of spells (Class Level + Casting Attribute Modifier). Additionally, the wizard can prepare from any spell on the druid list at any time while the wizard is limited by his spellbook and adding spells beyond the 2*Class level granted by the class is strongly at the whim of the DM. The only class with a stronger spell casting advantage than druid is cleric. Warlocks are very swingy in their effectiveness. Their average spells known to spell slots is average 4:1 (15:4 @ 20) and they are balanced around the assumption of one long rest and two short rests per day. More short rests and their power goes up. Fewer short rests and it goes down. The sorcerer ends up with 15 spells known. Period. The bard ends up with 22 plus any two others. Compared to cleric and druid the bard, sorcerer, and warlock are screwed if the spell selections they have made leveling up aren't useful to the encounter at hand. Less so for the wizard by virtue of having nearly twenty more spells known than bard although he only has access to a handful more than bard (25 vs 22). The cleric and druid have, roughly, 120 spells available to them but can only prepare a fifth of them. If they don't have a spell applicable to the situation it's because they chose poorly when preparing for the day.

--

Not PvP, that's A. B, my fighter took two levels of rogue for cunning action and has the mobile feat and a heavy crossbow. Good luck even keeping up. Or, if you want a full fighter, I'll just buy a horse for 120' move per turn plus full lance attacks at 10' range. See how ridiculous PvP can get?

You've already lost if you have to multiclass.

--

If you're going to argue that full casting of any calibur is superior to the sheer number of attacks and options fighters have at their disposal, this really isn't the thread for that. But there are plenty of threads talking about how many options casters have, particularly outside of combat, where that point could be debated.

Actually, this is precisely the thread to argue that. You keep arguing that wild shape is weak and you keep attempting to do so in a vacuum that entirely ignores everything else available to the character, which includes its spellcasting ability. I swear, as far as I can tell all your moon druids do is stay in wildshape all day long, which if they're doing that they're idiots and only using a fraction of their toolbox. It would be like playing a valor bard that never casts a spell.

--

Once again, I suggest you play one before you come here talking about how great they are.

You have a lot of misunderstandings about most of the classes which you've been comparing druid against. I don't need to play a moon druid to understand how the class operates and I certainly don't need to play a druid to look at their spell list and see how much power they get out of it.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-03, 09:05 AM

None of the warlock's patrons grant a major boon to melee or spellcasting, unless you count an expanded spell list to choose from when leveling to be a major boon. A wild magic sorcerer only gets a boon at level 18 that can be used once per day. A draconic lineage sorcerer only gets to add charisma to the damage of spells that matches his ancestry.

Small add on... The Warlock is not a full caster (they are weird) but they do gain Blade/Chain/Tome choices which does modify their melee or spell ability greatly.

Warlocks are so weird that they are missing from the DMG Spell Point description when every other spell casting class is there (even EK and AT).

The warlock gains the choice of melee/spell/utility no matter what patron they choose... Because the warlock was made better.

If the cleric was made like the warlock, at least conceptually, you would get to choose your domain (say light) and then choose how you will use your light domain (martial/caster/other) so that not all light clerics are forced to have the same set up.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-03, 09:13 AM

If we're multi classing I may go with Druid 10/ Paladin 4

Gives me another use for those 1-6th level spell slots

Smite + Multi attack + hunters mark + vengance (advantage on attacks)

Can Elementals wear armor and use shields?

I've seen elemental monsters wear armor in previous editions, you just need the right type. Elementals have what one could call hands so I don't see why an elemental couldn't have a shield and a Druid Focus quarterstaff.

Talderas

2015-02-03, 09:27 AM

Small add on... The Warlock is not a full caster (they are weird) but they do gain Blade/Chain/Tome choices which does modify their melee or spell ability greatly.

Warlocks are so weird that they are missing from the DMG Spell Point description when every other spell casting class is there (even EK and AT).

The warlock gains the choice of melee/spell/utility no matter what patron they choose... Because the warlock was made better.

If the cleric was made like the warlock, at least conceptually, you would get to choose your domain (say light) and then choose how you will use your light domain (martial/caster/other) so that not all light clerics are forced to have the same set up.

They are a full caster in the sense that they have access to spells of 9th level power. Even so if we compare their total per day spell slots using the long-short-short rest adventuring day then at each level that we gain new spell leves (1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17) the warlock typically has an advantage even if they have fewer overall slots.

The below numbers are warlock followed by the distribution of other 9th level casters. I include recovery mechanics in the spell slots if the slots are pre-defined. The parenthesis indicate other methods of recoverying spell slots (Sorcery Points, Arcane Recovery Spell Levels). Bard/Cleric/Druid lack any recovery mechanics within their base class so I did not include any that might exist.
1st - 3 : 2 (0 / 1)
3rd - 0/6 : 4/2 (4 / 2)
5th - 0/0/6 : 4/3/2 (5 / 3)
7th - 0/0/0/6 : 4/3/3/1 (7 / 4)
9th - 0/0/0/0/6 : 4/3/3/3/1 (9 / 5)
11th - 0/0/0/0/9/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1 (11 / 6)
13th - 0/0/0/0/9/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1/1 (13 / 7)
15th - 0/0/0/0/9/1/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1 (15 / 8)
17th - 0/0/0/0/12/1/1/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/1 (17 / 9)
20th - 0/0/0/0/16/1/1/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1 (28 / 10)

Fwiffo86

2015-02-03, 09:34 AM

I'd be willing to declare you wrong. Second worst subclass in the game after champion, the only possible use is flying around on a giant bat as a halfling. They're the weakest martial class in the game no matter what, they're flat out not as useful as anyone else.

Our ranger at my table would like to disagree. Once they realized that the pet isn't there to actually deal damage, but to use the free "help" action (granting advantage to all attacks the ranger uses), the ranger started dealing tremendous damage.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-03, 09:39 AM

I'll reiterate that my intentions, from the beginning, were to give moon druids a consistent power curve to match other classes. Their casting helps with that, though their full casting is as weak as full casting gets with their limited spell list, lack of at-will options, lack of boons, and general lack of anything related to casting besides casting itself (from a spell list less than half the size of a wizard's).

I'm taking your statement here to mean you don't believe the druid's spell casting is as powerful as other spell casters based solely on the number of spells available to them? Did I understand that correctly?

For these reasons, and because of the nature of the archetype, the moon druid's power should be central to wildshape. That means wildshape should be comparable to a partial fighter at all levels in terms of attack, useful beast abilities, and how many attacks we can expect the beast form(s) to soak up.

This same argument can be made for the spell casting of the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster. Since it is "central" to their theme that they become spell casters, they should have full caster progression. Wouldn't your logic agree?

Talderas

2015-02-03, 09:40 AM

Our ranger at my table would like to disagree. Once they realized that the pet isn't there to actually deal damage, but to use the free "help" action (granting advantage to all attacks the ranger uses), the ranger started dealing tremendous damage.

The help action only grants advantage on the first attack made. Meanwhile that help command is entirely negated if anyone in your party can otherwise provide you with advantage such as, I don't know, a bard casting faerie fire on a group of enemies.

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-03, 09:45 AM

They are a full caster in the sense that they have access to spells of 9th level power. Even so if we compare their total per day spell slots using the long-short-short rest adventuring day then at each level that we gain new spell leves (1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17) the warlock typically has an advantage even if they have fewer overall slots.

The below numbers are warlock followed by the distribution of other 9th level casters. I include recovery mechanics in the spell slots if the slots are pre-defined. The parenthesis indicate other methods of recoverying spell slots (Sorcery Points, Arcane Recovery Spell Levels). Bard/Cleric/Druid lack any recovery mechanics within their base class so I did not include any that might exist.
1st - 3 : 2 (0 / 1)
3rd - 0/6 : 4/2 (4 / 2)
5th - 0/0/6 : 4/3/2 (5 / 3)
7th - 0/0/0/6 : 4/3/3/1 (7 / 4)
9th - 0/0/0/0/6 : 4/3/3/3/1 (9 / 5)
11th - 0/0/0/0/9/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1 (11 / 6)
13th - 0/0/0/0/9/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1/1 (13 / 7)
15th - 0/0/0/0/9/1/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1 (15 / 8)
17th - 0/0/0/0/12/1/1/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/1 (17 / 9)
20th - 0/0/0/0/16/1/1/1/1 : 4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1 (28 / 10)

That's nice and all but they are still not full casters. They are a hybrid class just as the ranger or paladin. The biggest difference is they get access to more spells and less martial.

Play a warlock and play a full caster like a wizard or cleric. Then play a paladin or ranger. The warlock spells supplement their other abilities like the paladin/ranger while a full caster's other abilities supplement their spell casting.

Warlocks get EB to make them more casterish but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't full casters.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-03, 09:50 AM

The help action only grants advantage on the first attack made. Meanwhile that help command is entirely negated if anyone in your party can otherwise provide you with advantage such as, I don't know, a bard casting faerie fire on a group of enemies.

Please connect me with the information that states helping someone only applies to the first attack. This has ramifications for all characters that have more than one attack and can sneak attack as well. (I know SA is only once per turn)

CrusaderJoe

2015-02-03, 09:59 AM

Please connect me with the information that states helping someone only applies to the first attack. This has ramifications for all characters that have more than one attack and can sneak attack as well. (I know SA is only once per turn)

Help
You can lend your aid to another creature in the
completion of a task. When you take the Help action,
the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn.
Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in
attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint,
distract the target, or in some other way team up to
make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally
attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."

Fwiffo86

2015-02-03, 10:01 AM

Help
You can lend your aid to another creature in the
completion of a task. When you take the Help action,
the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn.
Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in
attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint,
distract the target, or in some other way team up to
make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally
attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."

Thanks. Wonder how I missed that. *shrugs*

silveralen

2015-02-03, 10:06 AM

Crossposting (crossquoting?) this because I liked it.

Just throwing in my ideas. I did something along these lines too; I really don't like the original wild shape for the very same reasons you don't. My idea was based more on pathfinder Beast Shape spells than anything else, forcing the druid to rely on their own stats instead of the ones from the animal, basically emulating the animal special abilities instead of the animal stats.

That's what I use right now, and I believe I'll mix what I'm using with some of yours.

-As an action you can change into an animal form.
Setting dependent: In one of my settings you choose what form after a long rest exactly like you, a land form, and later a water and a flying form (druids emmulate nature and disguise themselves as it); in the other setting the forms are fixed, but you have up to proficiency forms (their wild shapes speaks to their soul and discovering what form he turns into is part of the character advancement).

-Your unnarmed strikes cause 1d6 S/P/B depending on the animal.
-You receive the animal skill proficiencies, movement modes (limited by level as normal), senses and special abilities.
-You receive an amor value of 3 (like a draconic sorcerer).

That's basically it, you change in an out at will; land druids (and other caster subclasses) aren't combat-worthy just because of their forms if their stats weren't already good. Their damage and armor is basic, but the wild shape grants them aditional abilities. These druis mostly use wild shape out of combat or as movement options, and I'm fine with that.

The land druid gets this:
-Your unnarmed damage while in wild shape cause damage equal to a monk of your level.
-May use WIS instead of STR or DEX on unnarmed strikes while in wild shape.
-Your armor bonus in wild shape is 3 or your CON modifier, whatever is higher.

At 6th level Primal Strike gets reworded: "Beggining at 6th level you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn while in Wild Shape. Your unnarmed attacks while in Wild Shape count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."

With these changes the Moon druid gets his own damage progression based on level instead of cherry-picking best animals; can have armor similar to a barbarian or monk; and gets a second attack like a valor bard instead of whatever crazy ammount of attacks his animal form had. The whole point is, like PF Beast Shape spells, getting better at combat, instead of becoming something else.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 10:48 AM

I'm taking your statement here to mean you don't believe the druid's spell casting is as powerful as other spell casters based solely on the number of spells available to them? Did I understand that correctly?

This same argument can be made for the spell casting of the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster. Since it is "central" to their theme that they become spell casters, they should have full caster progression. Wouldn't your logic agree?

Not exactly. Druids have less than half as many spell choices as a wizard. In addition, most of those are utility. Those spell attack options they do have are generally limited; a perfect example is produce flame, a short-range 1d8, which is inferior to both Eldritch blast and fire bolt (and the range can be a major pain).

Notably, clerics also have a d8 cantrip for attack. However, clerics get better armor, in addition to domain features that can add wisdom mod to its damage, grant them a stronger attack, let them wear plate, or a variety of other benefits. Presumably, wildshape should be as useful as these things. Instead, wildshape is is too good at some levels and too weak at others.

Land Druids make up for this with more spells and casting boons. Moon Druids make up for it presumably through a stronger, more versatile wildshape, which leads us back to this thread.

Regarding the rest of your post, arcane tricksters and Eldritch Knights have a full gamut of rogue / fighter features backing up their casting. Thus I think it's obvious that their 1/3 casting is appropriate. I don't think anyone would debate that.

Again, just so we're clear, I don't want moon Druids to be OP, or better than fighters, or anything like that. I just want them to scale evenly without major DM intervention. I think that's a reasonable goal.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-03, 11:30 AM

Again, just so we're clear, I don't want moon Druids to be OP, or better than fighters, or anything like that. I just want them to scale evenly without major DM intervention. I think that's a reasonable goal.

I understand. However, I posit that considering the WS mechanics alone, and attempting to reconfigure them to be a progression may not be a wise choice. Any changes that you make have ramifications well beyond the WS itself. I would consider the druid's spell use (as the EK's or AT's basic class features) to be an integral part of the class and just as important to reconfigure.

It seems that you are focusing on the combat mechanics alone, not considering that WS is not always going to be the optimal choice, even for Moon druids. I fear that intentionally or not, you are running the risk of making WS far too powerful when combined with the remaining class features of the druid.

I understand the belief that Moon druids would want to maximize their WS use, voluntarily ignoring the other features the druid has. Doing so is the player's choice. I don't think that the DM should reconfigure the class to take that choice away from them. WS works fine. Yes, its isn't always the best choice at some levels. Nothing is. I don't believe it was ever meant to be the universal tool you are attempting to make it. If you disagree, take into consideration that after you effect these houserules, would your druid do anything else other than WS? Do they even have a reason to? I would urge caution to prevent this.

Haruki-kun

2015-02-03, 11:45 AM

The Winged Mod: Guys, please avoid double posting. Use the edit button to add content to your post if you want to say something else.

Carry on.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 11:46 AM

I understand. However, I posit that considering the WS mechanics alone, and attempting to reconfigure them to be a progression may not be a wise choice. Any changes that you make have ramifications well beyond the WS itself. I would consider the druid's spell use (as the EK's or AT's basic class features) to be an integral part of the class and just as important to reconfigure.

It seems that you are focusing on the combat mechanics alone, not considering that WS is not always going to be the optimal choice, even for Moon druids. I fear that intentionally or not, you are running the risk of making WS far too powerful when combined with the remaining class features of the druid.

I understand the belief that Moon druids would want to maximize their WS use, voluntarily ignoring the other features the druid has. Doing so is the player's choice. I don't think that the DM should reconfigure the class to take that choice away from them. WS works fine. Yes, its isn't always the best choice at some levels. Nothing is. I don't believe it was ever meant to be the universal tool you are attempting to make it. If you disagree, take into consideration that after you effect these houserules, would your druid do anything else other than WS? Do they even have a reason to? I would urge caution to prevent this.

Would you care to look at the Homebrew I posted? I nerfed some things and buffed others. Hopefully, I reached a nice middle-ground, allowing the archetype to scale evenly while simultaneously taking away the onion druid aspect.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-03, 11:58 AM

Would you care to look at the Homebrew I posted? I nerfed some things and buffed others. Hopefully, I reached a nice middle-ground, allowing the archetype to scale evenly while simultaneously taking away the onion druid aspect.

I did review it. It is what has prompted my concern that you left the spell casting and other features of the class untouched. As I said before, you presently run a high risk of moon druid players not using any other feature of their class simply because it is not as good a choice as using WS. This in and of itself is a problem, though a different one.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 12:25 PM

I did review it. It is what has prompted my concern that you left the spell casting and other features of the class untouched. As I said before, you presently run a high risk of moon druid players not using any other feature of their class simply because it is not as good a choice as using WS. This in and of itself is a problem, though a different one.

Well, if we examine what wildshape can accomplish at a given level, it's a bit behind what a fighter might do. A fifth level druid can morph into a bear, though he'll do less damage, have lower AC, and probably lower hp than the party fighter. So that druid would be encouraged to cast a spell first, then shift, for maximum usefulness.

This is how my player reacted when I let her shift in and out at will, and I actually expanded her list of available shape shifts a little (it's HoTDQ, and she wanted to shift into an ambush Drake, which I think allows for some fun story). Notably, that was at level 2 when the moon druid's power is supposed to be highest. More notably, she contributed least to the hardest fight they had at 2 because she had the fewest options for dealing with darkness (from a level 3 blade warlock I attacked them with).

I'll be testing things in-game as we go along, so I'll keep everyone posted with what I find. I'll update the Homebrew if I notice any problems.

That said, I'm totally fine with a moon druid's wildshape being the default option. Spells have a high opportunity cost, and druids don't have a great selection of cantrips, nor do they have any business in melee in their base form. I wanted for at least one thing about the archetype to feel like a safe, reliable choice, much like a fighter entering melee or a warlock throwing out Eldritch blasts.

Chen

2015-02-03, 02:19 PM

As a house rule I'd say you let them burn spell slots to add bonuses to attack or AC (capped by the proficiency bonus or bonus -1 or some other balanced number). Maybe let it last more than one round if you burn a slot higher than your proficiency bonus. Lets the even out their AC or their attack at the cost of their other class features.

Myzz

2015-02-03, 04:10 PM

Talderas

2015-02-03, 04:27 PM

if your worried about the druid being a full caster, why not apply a spells known to the druid class as a whole and remove the restriction for land Druids? Maybe at the same spells known progression as a Warlock?

A moon druid would then have precious few spells to be considered a powerful caster even with a full caster slot progression, and would likely spend their slots for heals in wildshape, like they are probably meant to...

As noted in a seperate wildshape thread, I do not like the wildshape mechanic: how it functions vs how the lore/fluff describes how it functions. As a DM I would discuss how we want to resolve the inherent disparities and houserule something that seems to make more sense (most likely reverting to a 2e or 3.X version).

Lowering the number of prepared spells, which is what you're essentially suggesting, isn't probably going to have an appreciable effect. Unless your druids are running with a core spell list that exceeds 15 spells, it's a minor nuisance by preventing the druid from knowing spells that could be useful in specific situations that are unlikely to crop up anyway.

You have to look at the spells the druid has and what spells can do something in a wide variety of situations.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-03, 04:54 PM

After review, there are many interesting suggestions here. Lots of good brain power working this thing. I however, will not. I don't think there is any problem with wildshape, its mechanics, or how it works/scales/etc.

Everything has a check and a balance. Unfortunately, when viewed singly, we sometimes miss the obvious checks, or why something doesn't work the way we think it should.

Vogonjeltz

2015-02-03, 05:45 PM

Which when you change from normal form to beast form you get your temp HP replaced. Wildshape in my spitball idea was at-will.

I'm not sure why you take issues with something like this.

I could make the same argument as you for any ability that gives temp HP... By using that ability you are taking away the ability for others to give you temp HP! What a shame!

Ew. At will? That totally kills it for me. The ability is very balanced around the idea that the Druid can only enter OR exit it once per round. Modifying that functionality ruins the balance.

So a fighter who uses Rally is bad because then you can't get temp ho from other sources! Oh no!

Edit: oh and people, these classes weren't meant to take on each other but were meant to go up against a monster of whatever CR. Instead of devolving this into another PVP you should look into an appropriate challenge for them. A Fighter and druid at high level can not have the same CR due to the tools that they each get. Send them both against the same problem and let them get out of it.

It's entirely possible for a DM to pit the PCs against enemies who are themselves just PC classes, so it's not unreasonable for us to consider these scenarios. I don't think the Druid is lacking in any PvE sense, however.

Has anyone posting experienced some horrible limitation while playing a Druid that wasn't equally noticed as another class?

Sweet.

A 4th level variant human Champion Fighter in Chain mail and shield with Dueling style. Armed with a longsword. Shield master feat. Ill give him stats of 18 in every single stat (just to try and even it up)

+6 to hit (1d8+6) (19-20), AC 18, HP 44 (Action surge, second wind 1d10+4)

Run the numbers - he loses in a fight with a Human (resilient Con) Druid 3 with Barkskin cast.

Every single time.

The bear will never hit the Fighter. Fighter uses attack action, bonus action shove to the ground, hit the bear for advantage, move back 25 feet out of Bear reach. Bear requires 20 feet movement to stand, can only move 20 feet (absent a dash) and is incapable of reaching the Fighter. Fighter proceeds to punt the bear to the ground and move back 30 feet. Rinse and repeat, the bear can make a melee attack with disadvantage for being prone, but I think we can agree that's basically a waste of time because they will virtually never hit.

Game. Set. Match.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 08:55 PM

The bear will never hit the Fighter. Fighter uses attack action, bonus action shove to the ground, hit the bear for advantage, move back 25 feet out of Bear reach.

Firstly, both the Fighter and the Druid (assuming a Strength of 18 for the Fighter, and both proficient in athletics) have an Athletics bonus of +6, so shoving is 50/50 at best. It also wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to grant the Druid advantage on the checks to resist being Shoved due to it being Large size.

Secondly the Druid can also use this exact tactic by substituting one of his attacks (thanks to Multi-attack) to shove the Fighter. Again, +6 Athletics for both of them, and possibly advantage to the Druid due to being Large. We can use the bite, and save the claws (2d6+4) to maul the Fighter once he is prone (at advantage).

If anything, when it comes to Shoving, both the Druid and the Shield master Fighter are equal. Arguably the Druid may even have the edge due to being Large size (possibly giving it advantage on the checks to resist or initiate a shove from someone smaller) and he doesn't have to use a bonus action to shove (he can shove AND attack AND burn a spell slot to heal using a spell slot). The Druid also comes with a movement of 40' so he's faster than the Fighter. This example also uses a Fighter who put his ASI into Strength at 4th level bringing it up to 18 just to match the Druids Strength of 19.

Finally, the Fighter provokes an attack of opportunity for moving away from the prone Druid without disengaging.

The 4th level Fighter (assuming a Con of 16) has 40 HP (plus second wind as a bonus action of 1d10+4). A total of around 50 HP. Assuming chainmail and shield he has an AC of 18. His attack bonus is +6, vs AC 16 dealing 1d8+6 (dealing an average of around 8 damage per round to the Druid, factoring in improved critical).

The 3rd level Druid with the same Con has 27 HP (plus over 60 from Bear form AND a pool of 5d8+15 healing as bonus actions) for a total of around 125 HP. His attack bonus is +5/+5, vs AC 18 dealing 1d8+4 and 2d6+4 (for an average of around 7 damage per round to the Fighter). The Druid has resilient (Con) so he is making Con saves at +6 and is very unlikely to fail a check to lose Bark skin once hit.

The Fighter dies on round 7. The Druid at that stage has taken 8 x 8 damage (this includes action surge) which is half his HP pool (and just about the exact amount of his 'ablative' HP from Bear form). He'll get those HP back on a short rest when his Wild shapes reset and he gains another pool of 60 odd 'ablative' HP from his two wild shapes). The Fighters OTOH need to spend Hit Dice to heal.

Running the above numbers, you can see that it takes approx. 2 x 4th level optimized Champion Fighters to match a single 3rd level Moon Druid on numbers alone.

And that doesn't sit well with me.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 10:04 PM

Incidentally this is the rules I am going with to fix wild shape:

A Druid in Wild shape retains the mental ability scores (Cha, Wis and Int), proficiencies, class features, Hit Dice and hit points of his normal form. The Druid gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con), size, AC, proficiencies, attacks, movement modes, speed, senses and special abilities of the wild shaped form.
Druids gain a pool of temporary HP equal to (Druid level x 2) whenever they assume a Wild shape from their natural form.
At 2nd level, a Moon Druid in Wild shape may calculate his AC by adding his proficiency bonus to the base forms AC.
A Druid in Wild shape cannot use Multi attack if the form has the ability to do so. When a Druid in such a form takes the attack action, he may only use one of the listed attacks under Multi attack unless he also has the extra attack class feature. A character with at least 5 levels in Druid ignores this restriction, and can freely use multi attack if the beast he wild shapes into has the multi attack ability.
A Druid may use either his own proficiency bonus or the beasts proficiency bonus (whichever is higher) for any melee or ranged attack, skill or save that either the Druid or the beast are proficient in. The Druid retains his own proficiencies (however some may be unusable in his new form) and gains the creatures proficiencies in its listed skills, saves and with its natural attacks. If the new form has abilities that require a saving throw to resist, the Druid may substitute his own Spell attack DC for the DC of the special attack.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 10:21 PM

Malifice

2015-02-03, 10:40 PM

The prof to AC rule, at 20, creates a 19AC, +13 hit mammoth, 6 more AC and 3 more hit than its base, so nice job making that worse. Also a 20AC giant spider and a 21 AC giant scorpion or giant crab. Oh, and how about that 23AC earth elemental.

Lol. Youre upset that at 20th level a Moon Druid has an AC of between 19-23? When the other front line combatants (Monks, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins and even Clerics) routinely also have an AC of 20+. Add magic armor, shields and items (which the Druid cannot benefit from) and sword and board martial's approach AC's of 25-30 at high level.

The Wizard has an AC of over 20 at 18th level just with mage armor and at will shield spells!

The added AC actually lets the Druids AC scale with level and other front line combat classes, and compensates for the scaling of hit points per short rest (and the fix to the 'ablative hit point' mess of RAW).

Know what's even worse, though? Your CR1 forms at level 2 have 4 HP...nice archetype there, think I'll just place a sorcerer.

Read it again. They gain temporary HP equal to 2 x Druid level. They retain their own (d8) hit dice and HP.

So Beary McBear the Moon Druid 2 in Bear form has (assuming stats of 16):

HP: 19 (23)
AC: 13
Move: 40'
Attack: Claws +6 (2d6+4) or bite (+6 1d8+4)
Strength 19

AC goes up to 16 at 3rd level thanks to Barkskin.

In Dire Wolf form he has:

HP: 19 (23)
AC: 16
Speed: 50'
Attack: Bite +5 (2D6+3) + DC13 save or be knocked prone
Strength 16

Fighty McFighter the 2nd level greatsword Fighter in Banded mail:

HP: 22 (plus 1d10+2 second wind)
AC: 17
Speed: 30'
Attack: Greatsword +5 (2d6+3) reroll 1's and 2's or Greatsword +0 (2d6+13) reroll 1's and 2's. Plus Action Surge. Gains an extra attack as a bonus action on a kill or critical hit.
Strength: 16

In other words our Druid is fighting at about 85-90 percent that of the Fighter. Factoring in his increased versatility from Wild Shape and Spells and its about even.

Giant2005

2015-02-03, 10:49 PM

A Druid may use either his own proficiency bonus or the beasts proficiency bonus (whichever is higher) for any melee or ranged attack, skill or save that either the Druid or the beast are proficient in. The Druid retains his own proficiencies (however some may be unusable in his new form) and gains the creatures proficiencies in its listed skills, saves and with its natural attacks. If the new form has abilities that require a saving throw to resist, the Druid may substitute his own Spell attack DC for the DC of the special attack.

I really like this one - it is better than the comparable house-rule that everyone else brought to the table (Including myself). It keeps the Druid more in-line with other Martially-focused casters in that their M.A.D. will be the same (Casting Stat, combat stat and Con). Every other suggestion involved either the Druid only needing his casting stat or his casting stat and Con. Your ideal is simple, works and better balanced. Kudos.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 11:07 PM

In other words our Druid is fighting at about 85-90 percent that of the Fighter. Factoring in his increased versatility from Wild Shape and Spells and its about even.

Except he's not. The fighter has tons of in combat options no matter which archetype he picks. Things a base fighter can do that no druid form can:

Use magical weapons and armor
Switch weapons
Make ranged attacks
Action surge
Benefit from fighting styles and weapon feats
etc.

And the archetypes will further allow the fighter to do things like:

Crit on a natural 18
Use superiority die for a wide variety of combat actions
Cast a spell and make an attack in the same round
etc.

Things a shapeshifted druid can do that no fighter can:

...
there are none. The animal forms add some skills; change your size; possibly add flight, waterbreathing, or a climb speed; and maybe let you knock people prone or immobilize people. An eldritch knight can do all of those things with fairly low-level spells.

Once again, you're severely overestimating the usefulness of wildshape. In trying to "balance" it, you ensured no druid will ever choose to use the feature. The temp HP isn't worth it, the AC is barely noticeable until later when it's too high, and the ability to soak hits and deal damage pales in comparison to a fighter who invests in Str/Dex and Con (all of them). Fighters get extra ASIs, after all; druids don't.

I'm convinced that you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye, so I'm done with this endless debate. Maybe after you actually play a game with some of your rules in place, you'll see how crippling they are.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 11:24 PM

Things a shapeshifted druid can do that no fighter can:

Fly, Climb, Breath water, swim, become huge (or tiny), adopt a form perfect for scouting or infiltration (house cat or spider), or for combat or for maneuverability. At 10th level he can become an Elemental for host of immunities and resistances and special attacks and abilities.

Or shift back to natural form an cast 9th level spells. Like reincarnation, flying, calling down bolts of lightning, making animals sentient or summoning ****. At 18th level - he doesnt even need to bother to shift back. Also: Rituals.

All options the Fighter doesn't have.

You cant be honestly telling me the Fighter has even 20 percent the utility of the Druid.

Once again, you're severely overestimating the usefulness of wildshape. In trying to "balance" it, you ensured no druid will ever choose to use the feature. The temp HP isn't worth it, the AC is barely noticeable until later when it's too high, and the ability to soak hits and deal damage pales in comparison to a fighter who invests in Str/Dex and Con (all of them). Fighters get extra ASIs, after all; druids don't.

So you keep saying, but look at the numbers I posted above. They are directly comparable.

I'm convinced that you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye, so I'm done with this endless debate. Maybe after you actually play a game with some of your rules in place, you'll see how crippling they are.

How on earth can you call this crippling:

Beary McBear the Moon Druid 2 in Bear form has (assuming stats of 16):

HP: 19 (23)
AC: 13
Move: 40'
Attack: Claws +6 (2d6+4) or bite (+6 1d8+4)
Strength 19

AC goes up to 16 at 3rd level thanks to Barkskin.

In Dire Wolf form he has:

HP: 19 (23)
AC: 16
Speed: 50'
Attack: Bite +5 (2D6+3) + DC13 save or be knocked prone
Strength 16

Fighty McFighter the 2nd level greatsword Fighter in Banded mail:

HP: 22 (plus 1d10+2 second wind)
AC: 17
Speed: 30'
Attack: Greatsword +5 (2d6+3) reroll 1's and 2's or Greatsword +0 (2d6+13) reroll 1's and 2's. Plus Action Surge. Gains an extra attack as a bonus action on a kill or critical hit.
Strength: 16

As a Sword and Board (dueling) Fighter:

HP: 22 (plus 1d10+2 second wind)
AC: 19
Speed: 30'
Attack: long sword +5 (1d8+5) plus Action Surge. May shove as a bonus action at +5.
Strength: 16

Look at the numbers man. The Druid is fighting at about 85-90 percent that of the Fighter. Factoring in the Druids increased versatility from Wild Shape (remember - the Druid above can also adopt spider form and scout better than the Rogue, or become a horse, dog or cat and blend in anywhere for infiltration) and also factor in Spells (and blowing them to heal as a bonus action) and its about even.

Post your evidence why its broken, and stop just parrotting it.

Giant2005

2015-02-03, 11:26 PM

I'm convinced that you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye, so I'm done with this endless debate. Maybe after you actually play a game with some of your rules in place, you'll see how crippling they are.

I don't think any amount of experience will change people's perspective on this one. It basically boils down to one group wanting Druids to be spellcasters and the other wanting Druids to be Martial characters. Only a change in one's preference would narrow this rift.

silveralen

2015-02-03, 11:28 PM

I don't think any amount of experience will change people's perspective on this one. It basically boils down to one group wanting Druids to be spellcasters and the other wanting Druids to be Martial characters. Only a change in one's preference would narrow this rift.

It doesn't bother me for someone to want them to be a martial, but keeping full ritual caster status seems extreme.

Malifice

2015-02-03, 11:34 PM

Kryx

2015-02-04, 12:38 PM

I really like this one - it is better than the comparable house-rule that everyone else brought to the table (Including myself). It keeps the Druid more in-line with other Martially-focused casters in that their M.A.D. will be the same (Casting Stat, combat stat and Con). Every other suggestion involved either the Druid only needing his casting stat or his casting stat and Con. Your ideal is simple, works and better balanced. Kudos.

I don't mean to be a broken record, but can you explain how modifying the DC of abilities is balanced? Compare a wolf with a modified shove (prone) DC to the Battle Master fighter who has a set number of times per day that he can do something special.

At will vs a set number of times is not balanced.

I don't think any amount of experience will change people's perspective on this one. It basically boils down to one group wanting Druids to be spellcasters and the other wanting Druids to be Martial characters. Only a change in one's preference would narrow this rift.

Correction: One group wants them to be martial and full spellcasters. Very few (if any) of the "buff wildshape" crew has talked about limiting spells.

Eslin

2015-02-04, 12:44 PM

Fwiffo86

2015-02-04, 12:55 PM

Because that's not how subclasses work. There are no classes that take away abilities - have you considered the problem is less druids having utility plus martial ability is bad and maybe fightbariangers need to be less crap?

Why is this discussion not about that instead? If the problem is with the actual martial classes and not the druid, why are you attempting to fix what isn't broken?

Easy_Lee

2015-02-04, 12:55 PM

I don't mean to be a broken record, but can you explain how modifying the DC of abilities is balanced? Compare a wolf with a modified shove (prone) DC to the Battle Master fighter who has a set number of times per day that he can do something special.

At will vs a set number of times is not balanced.

Correction: One group wants them to be martial and full spellcasters. Very few (if any) of the "buff wildshape" crew has talked about limiting spells.

Three things:

If a druid can transform into a beast and do X, then there's no reason why X should cease to be usable when the druid gains levels. Therefore, DCs should scale
BM options scale, and many don't even allow saves. Further, those things BM can do are more comparable to spells than to a druid's beast abilities. This is because those beasts who can use special actions either can't attack in the same turn (spider) or that is their only means of getting a bonus attack (panther, mammoth). BM abilities let them break the typical limitations of when they can attack or use special actions.
None of the solutions suggested creates a druid comparable to a martial. Martials have maneuvers and special attacks, can use ranged attacks, and can benefit from a wide variety of feats and weapons that no beast can use. Even in their current situation, a beast can hardly be called a martial.

Kryx

2015-02-04, 01:26 PM

If a druid can transform into a beast and do X, then there's no reason why X should cease to be usable when the druid gains levels. Therefore, DCs should scale

Beasts can do damage and have great riders. Fighter cannot. Beasts are balanced around the rider DC being fairly easy to pass. Increasing that DC (especially without removing any to account for prof from the beast) is quite silly.

BM options scale, and many don't even allow saves. Further, those things BM can do are more comparable to spells than to a druid's beast abilities. This is because those beasts who can use special actions either can't attack in the same turn (spider) or that is their only means of getting a bonus attack (panther, mammoth). BM abilities let them break the typical limitations of when they can attack or use special actions.

Manuevers definitely have a saves. See PHB 73-74. Trip is comparable to wolf. It costs a superiority dice and requires a save.
Giving a wolf the ability to trip an unlimited amount of times while the BM fighter does it a limited amount of times is not balanced.

None of the solutions suggested creates a druid comparable to a martial.

That is heavily disputed in this thread. Some of you have hugely nerfed the HP and then hugely buffed the offensive abilities.

I get that some people love the 3.5 druid and it's unbalanced nature. You're able to port that to 5e, but you can see by the number of replies to this thread that very few would consider the 3.5 style druid to be balanced.
Nearly all the changes in this thread push the class to be the 3.5 druid: Martial and full Spells.

Talderas

2015-02-04, 01:35 PM

None of the solutions suggested creates a druid comparable to a martial. Martials have maneuvers and special attacks, can use ranged attacks, and can benefit from a wide variety of feats and weapons that no beast can use. Even in their current situation, a beast can hardly be called a martial.

No solution should create a druid comparable to a martial. A druid still has full spellcasting behind him. If you want a druid comparable to a martial then that druid can't have better than partial spellcasting and 5th level spells. Any changes that fail to address the spellcasting while powering up the druid's martial option is an unbalanced non-starter.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-04, 02:29 PM

No solution should create a druid comparable to a martial. A druid still has full spellcasting behind him. If you want a druid comparable to a martial then that druid can't have better than partial spellcasting and 5th level spells. Any changes that fail to address the spellcasting while powering up the druid's martial option is an unbalanced non-starter.

Way to put words in my mouth. At no point, in this thread or any other, have I said that druids should be both full martials and full casters. In fact, I doubt anyone has.

Beasts can do damage and have great riders. Fighter cannot. Beasts are balanced around the rider DC being fairly easy to pass. Increasing that DC (especially without removing any to account for prof from the beast) is quite silly.
This is, frankly, 100% false. Beasts can either do okay damage, or do crap damage and, if a riser succeeds, do okay damage and apply the rider. The panther pounce and mammoth charge are almost identical in effect and setup, but the mammoth DC is +6 higher. There's no reason why a druid capable of turning into a mammoth shouldn't have a comparable pounce DC if he chose panther instead.

And fighters can do great damage and still apply a rider, even if they're not BM, because they have so many extra attacks. A fighter can trip two targets and still damage two more, beasts can't.

Manuevers definitely have a saves. See PHB 73-74. Trip is comparable to wolf. It costs a superiority dice and requires a save.
Giving a wolf the ability to trip an unlimited amount of times while the BM fighter does it a limited amount of times is not balanced.
First, not all maneuvers have DCs attached. Second, those Beasts with rider effects are designed such that getting full damage out of the round depends on both qualifying for the rider and the target failing their save. Even in a perfect round, a fighter could still trip a target and do more damage than the wolf at almost any level. Bonus action attacks are easy for fighters to achieve, particularly with their bonus feats.

I get that some people love the 3.5 druid and it's unbalanced nature. You're able to port that to 5e, but you can see by the number of replies to this thread that very few would consider the 3.5 style druid to be balanced.
Nearly all the changes in this thread push the class to be the 3.5 druid.

No, none of the suggestions in this thread push druids anywhere close to 3.5. You apparently never played 3.5. Let me explain 3.5 shape-shifting to you: someone says shape-shift, and the Doctor throws his book. Shape-shift in 3.5 was auto win. None of the suggestions in this thread even push druids close to a fighter's output and combat versatility, let alone into 3.5 status.

Going to throw down the gauntlet right now. Pick a beast, any beast. Assume it's attack bonus is the druid's wisdom mod + prof. Assume the DC for its extra effects is wisdom mod + prof. Pick any druid level past 5. I can build a fighter who hits harder and tanks better at the same time.

Kryx

2015-02-04, 03:01 PM

Way to put words in my mouth. At no point, in this thread or any other, have I said that druids should be both full martials and full casters. In fact, I doubt anyone has.
The buffs you have suggested just right above make the druid more effective than battle master at applying effects.

This is, frankly, 100% false.
If the rider succeeds? This is bounded accuracy. You're already making it comparable to a limited resource, but allowing it to happen at-will. This simply is not balanced. The beast's riders are balanced on the chance of them succeeding. You can see that trip is quite effective so the DC is low.
If you did anything here you'd have to subtract a flat number based on CR and then add the prof back. In the case of the wolf you'd end up at the same number at default levels, with it increasing by up to 4 at higher levels. Still likely unbalanced, but much more balanced.

You apparently never played 3.5.
You really do love being condescending, don't you? You do it constantly throughout this thread.

I played many years of 3.5 and know exactly how the druid works.
What has been suggested in this thread (not your homebrew thread) is a huge buff to druid's martial prowess without even touching it's spellcasting ability. You'd likely have to drop it to 4th level casting. Most in this thread have suggested such except a few of you in the "druids need buffs" camp.

It's unfortunate that you're unwilling to listen or discuss the issue without seething condescension. I'm out.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-04, 03:10 PM

Going to throw down the gauntlet right now. Pick a beast, any beast. Assume it's attack bonus is the druid's wisdom mod + prof. Assume the DC for its extra effects is wisdom mod + prof. Pick any druid level past 5. I can build a fighter who hits harder and tanks better at the same time.

Don't forget to give the druid ample reason to use his spells. To make it fair, the druid should be able to use ALL of his abilities vs. the abilities you are going to select for the fighter.

Unless you are willing to count the following for a fair comparison:

No feats
No magical equipment
Equal attributes (ie STR = WIS)

Easy_Lee

2015-02-04, 03:10 PM

The buffs you have suggested just right above make the druid more effective than battle master at applying effects.

What has been suggested in this thread (not your homebrew thread) is a huge buff to druid's martial prowess without even touching it's spellcasting ability. You'd likely have to drop it to 4th level casting. Most in this thread have suggested such except a few of you in the "druids need buffs" camp.

And yet you fail to show how. Though if you're referring to what someone other than me posted, why are you directing criticisms of their posts at me? Nobody is being condescending in this thread, though quite a few are throwing out wild accusations.

Incidentally, I'm calling it now; comparisons to 3.5e are going to become the political correctness movement of 5e. Once something gets compared to 3.5e, the accuser will continue to do so, post after post, then call the other party a racist (or munchkin in this case). Seriously, nothing in 5e, nor anything I've seen proposed for 5e, even approaches 3.5e levels of broken.

Don't forget to give the druid ample reason to use his spells. To make it fair, the druid should be able to use ALL of his abilities vs. the abilities you are going to select for the fighter.

Unless you are willing to count the following for a fair comparison:

No feats
No magical equipment
Equal attributes (ie STR = WIS)

Not sure that taking out feats and magical equipment is comparable to casting, but the debate isn't really about casting. The debate is about fighters not being better at fighting than beast for druids. Barring bear form at 2, I believe fighters are always better fighters than any beast an equivalent druid can shift into. And they can do so with or without magical gear. That's my argument.

Trying to throw spells into the mix would just result in a lot of debate about which spell is best in a given situation, and would probably go no where.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-04, 03:14 PM

Edit: aww crap, double post. Damn it's hard to avoid that on my phone.

Fwiffo86

2015-02-04, 03:25 PM

Trying to throw spells into the mix would just result in a lot of debate about which spell is best in a given situation, and would probably go no where.

I believe several people, myself included, are attempting to get you to acknowledge that any modifications to the druid wild shape will disproportionately affect their balance because they are full casters. This is something I have not seen you comment on, or even acknowledge in any of your posts.

I do not know if this is intentional or not. But I cannot fathom a reason to ignore this vital detail.

Synovia

2015-02-04, 03:36 PM

the debate isn't really about casting. The debate is about fighters not being better at fighting than beast for druids. Barring bear form at 2, I believe fighters are always better fighters than any beast an equivalent druid can shift into. And they can do so with or without magical gear. That's my argument.

The debate is absolutely about casting, and the problem is you can't seem to realize that.

The fighter should faceroll a wildshaped druid in direct combat - it should be a comic beatdown, because that's what a fighter does, and because when the fighter finishes beating down the wildshape druid, the druid is still a full caster with full hitpoints.

People keep bringing up 3.5 because what you're trying to do is have the wildshape druid be superior to the fighter at absolutely everything - you're pushing the fighter out of his niche. The druid has more options - that means each option should be inferior to the fighter's 1 option. Frankly, the druid is probably already overpowered at this point.

Talderas

2015-02-04, 03:48 PM

Way to put words in my mouth. At no point, in this thread or any other, have I said that druids should be both full martials and full casters. In fact, I doubt anyone has.

I put no such words in your mouth. Your actions have done it for you. You have done nothing but present changes to increase the power of wild shape. You have consistently ignored people making comments about how the druid still has access to 9th level spell casting and failed to address any such concerns. You consistently deny this aspect and constantly talk about improving wildshape while neglecting spellcasting when the sum of the package of druid is a very relevant factor.

Until you acknowledge the full spellcasting or even begin to discuss where to lower the druid in power to compensate for the buffing of wildshape, it's a non-starter conversation to talk about powering up wildshape. Druid wildshape is weak and intentionally so because they have 9th level spellcasting and WotC took lessons from 3rd and 4th edition with being cautious about giving too much power from other sources to classes with full spellcasting.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-04, 03:50 PM

The fighter should faceroll a wildshaped druid in direct combat - it should be a comic beatdown, because that's what a fighter does, and because when the fighter finishes beating down the wildshape druid, the druid is still a full caster with full hitpoints.

And here we have it, folks, the mentality that produced this entire debate. I knew we would get here sooner or later.

I don't believe the opinion above is correct.

Does a fighter faceroll a valor bard? What about a blade pact warlock? How about a war cleric? No. In spite of being Gish characters, these three can stand up to a fighter in melee combat without their spells.

They'll lose, no doubt about that. The fighter has too many fighting options, too many features, too much prowess for them to hope to stand much of a chance. However, all three have full casting which makes up for their combat inferiority.

The above three are doubly notable because I can build versions of any of them with better damage and much better AC than a mammoth at 17 (save maybe the war cleric for DPR). They don't have the huge health pool, which is the druid advantage. But what they do have is a wider array of defensive options, better casting features, and access to a much wider variety of gear (in fact, RAW mammoth may be unable to use any gear at all).

The OP druid problem really only happens at 2-4 and 20. We all agree there, and I believe I've addressed those levels adequately in my Homebrew.

I don't think full casting means a character should get "facerolled" in melee. I only think it means that character shouldn't have the full gamut of fighter options; and indeed, none do.