I'm looking for information on The Abyss, Demon Lords, and opinions on this plot

[Ephemeral_Being]

Is this the right place to ask about lore for 3.5? Specifically related to Forgotten Realms, but I'll go outside of that.

Long story short, I'm running a campaign where Helm is trying to keep order in Faerun. As the focal point of the campaign, Helm has caught wind of a plot from the Abyss where-in a demon lord (I'm thinking Abraxas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demon_lords#Abraxas) right now) has a plan to take over Faerun through the use of arcane magic. Wizards and Sorcerers, not Clerics. That's the key to this whole plot I'm running. The plot started with the party entering a city (and, by extension, province) ruled by the Church of Helm, and being told that they can't use Arcane Magic within the borders. That's all they know. The larger, cosmic elements are slowly revealed to them, if they pursue those avenues in the plot.

It's totalitarian and discriminatory, which makes EVERYONE immediately suspicious of what's going on. But it's being done by a god who is, by and large, famous for his "good" deeds. Helm's the one who keeps order in the universe. That's his thing. So the players are thrown for a loop. Are the Clerics of Helm being deceived, receiving orders from someone else? Has Helm gone crazy, and shifted his alignment? Is there a good reason for all of this, and the Church is doing the right thing? Watching them try to puzzle it out has been fun. And as they get more information, they keep re-evaluating. It's great.

Anyway. I'm having some trouble with finding enough information to fully flesh this campaign out from official WotC sources. And so, after a couple days of scanning books, it's time to ask for help.

1. What's the process for sealing a Demon Lord in the Abyss? I know it's possible. Fiendish Codex states numerous times that Demon Lords HAVE been bound there for periods of time. But it doesn't say how to do so. Obviously it would be beyond the scope of 2nd level PCs, but I'm looking for an answer to the question anyway.

2. What's the process for freeing a Demon Lord from the Abyss? I don't ACTUALLY know if this is possible. The description of the Gate spell implies that would be one way to do so. But. That seems too easy. So I assume I'm missing something.

3. Can someone help me flesh out Abraxas? He's mentioned in Fiendish Codex as ruling the 17th layer of the Abyss, Death's Reward. But there's no information on what that is. What minions he would have. What rituals would be associated with him. Or really, anything enough to run a campaign around him, and a cult "worshiping" him. I'm looking for help in this area.

4. There's a mediocre third-party book which has information on him called Book of Fiends Volume II: Armies of the Abyss. It's... not what I wanted. His followers (as described) are almost lawful good. Not evil, spell-slinging, demon-summoning cultists. I'm looking for power hungry, conniving, ritualistically-murdering-civilians levels of crazy here. So. Is there a better book to use? Or a better Demon Lord? Any source is fine here. Planescape, or Greyhawk, or even Dragonlance. I really don't care. I just need a good idea.

5. If the answers to any of these is "Yeah, there's no official answer," then I need to come up with one. So I'm also looking for suggestions. Stuff you've used. From other media. A random idea that you think sounds cool. Anything. I'm totally open to ideas.

[atemu1234]

1. What's the process for sealing a Demon Lord in the Abyss? I know it's possible. Fiendish Codex states numerous times that Demon Lords HAVE been bound there for periods of time. But it doesn't say how to do so. Obviously it would be beyond the scope of 2nd level PCs, but I'm looking for an answer to the question anyway.

2. What's the process for freeing a Demon Lord from the Abyss? I don't ACTUALLY know if this is possible. The description of the Gate spell implies that would be one way to do so. But. That seems too easy. So I assume I'm missing something.

3. Can someone help me flesh out Abraxas? He's mentioned in Fiendish Codex as ruling the 17th layer of the Abyss, Death's Reward. But there's no information on what that is. What minions he would have. What rituals would be associated with him. Or really, anything enough to run a campaign around him, and a cult "worshiping" him. I'm looking for help in this area.

4. There's a mediocre third-party book which has information on him called Book of Fiends Volume II: Armies of the Abyss. It's... not what I wanted. His followers (as described) are almost lawful good. Not evil, spell-slinging, demon-summoning cultists. I'm looking for power hungry, conniving, ritualistically-murdering-civilians levels of crazy here. So. Is there a better book to use? Or a better Demon Lord? Any source is fine here. Planescape, or Greyhawk, or even Dragonlance. I really don't care. I just need a good idea.

5. If the answers to any of these is "Yeah, there's no official answer," then I need to come up with one. So I'm also looking for suggestions. Stuff you've used. From other media. A random idea that you think sounds cool. Anything. I'm totally open to ideas.

1) Probably some form of permanencied Planar Binding, in one way or another.
2) Disjunction on the above.
3) Demon lord template is in Dragon Magazine. Stat him as something relative to death.
4) I like Book of Fiends, personally. I can't think of a source that'd work any better (or worse, for that matter).
5) The best I could do is the above.

[Ephemeral_Being]

1) Probably some form of permanencied Planar Binding, in one way or another.
2) Disjunction on the above.

Alright, so let's ignore making it permanent, for a minute. Say we cast Intensified (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intensify_Spell) Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm), granting 36 HD(!) of summonable Demons. Is that even possible, RAW? I'm not super comfortable with the Metamagic rules. It would be effectively a level 15 Wizard spell. Does that take a level 9 spell slot? Either way, you'd need 25 in your Caster Stat to manage it. Which is actually reasonable for a Demon Lord. But if so, THAT works to get a Demon Lord to your position, assuming they fail their will save to resist. Or fail on purpose, in an attempt to escape the Abyss.

Is that correct? Because if so, great. We've solved 1, and 2. I don't know how to get a Wizard NPC able to CAST that spell yet, but I'll figure that out later.

[Oracle_of_Void]

For sealing a demon lord into the Abyss, I'd call that "plot device magic". No written spell did it, but some person or group of powerful magic users did it. It could be a different demon lord, a god, a cabal of epic wizards, whatever. Personally, I wouldn't have stuff like binding demon lords in hard rules; it'd give players too many ideas :smallbiggrin:

[atemu1234]

Alright, so let's ignore making it permanent, for a minute. Say we cast Intensified (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intensify_Spell) Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm), granting 36 HD(!) of summonable Demons. Is that even possible, RAW? I'm not super comfortable with the Metamagic rules. It would be effectively a level 15 Wizard spell. Does that take a level 9 spell slot? Either way, you'd need 25 in your Caster Stat to manage it. Which is actually reasonable for a Demon Lord. But if so, THAT works to get a Demon Lord to your position, assuming they fail their will save to resist. Or fail on purpose, in an attempt to escape the Abyss.

Is that correct? Because if so, great. We've solved 1, and 2. I don't know how to get a Wizard NPC able to CAST that spell yet, but I'll figure that out later.

Theoretically it could, if the Demon Lord failed the save (unless I'm mistaken, there is a save for that spell). It is an outsider and if it's not outright immune you could do that. Though with epic magic, you could just animate the plane he's on and have it grapple him for all eternity.

Coincidentally, what would the size modifier on the Abyss be? It's infinite, so I'd say something like + Banana Pudding.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Theoretically it could, if the Demon Lord failed the save (unless I'm mistaken, there is a save for that spell). It is an outsider and if it's not outright immune you could do that. Though with epic magic, you could just animate the plane he's on and have it grapple him for all eternity.

Coincidentally, what would the size modifier on the Abyss be? It's infinite, so I'd say something like + Banana Pudding.

Yeah, the Abyss is infinite. I don't know what you mean, exactly, with the plane grappling him.

The save on Greater Planar Binding is Will-based, but he could botch. Theoretically. Or fail, if another Demon Lord/God is casting it. And then, you consign him to an ALMOST impossible task. The Abyss has an endless labyrinth in it, for example. So, another Demon Lord (Baphomet) summoned him there, and tasked him to escape The Endless Maze. Which is POSSIBLE, but virtually impossible. So, he's trapped forever until forcibly called to another plane. I think that's how Planar Binding works.

Can you (or someone) make sure I understand the way that the cumulative caster level/spell slots works here? I don't really use Metamagic in great detail, and I've never had it exceed a spell slot level of 9 before. I want to make sure that's both possible, and doesn't incur any other weird things I need to explain.

[atemu1234]

Yeah, the Abyss is infinite. I don't know what you mean, exactly, with the plane grappling him.

The save on Greater Planar Binding is Will-based, but he could botch. Theoretically. Or fail, if another Demon Lord/God is casting it. And then, you consign him to an ALMOST impossible task. The Abyss has an endless labyrinth in it, for example. So, another Demon Lord (Baphomet) summoned him there, and tasked him to escape The Endless Maze. Which is POSSIBLE, but virtually impossible. So, he's trapped forever until forcibly called to another plane. I think that's how Planar Binding works.

Can you (or someone) make sure I understand the way that the cumulative caster level/spell slots works here? I don't really use Metamagic in great detail, and I've never had it exceed a spell slot level of 9 before. I want to make sure that's both possible, and doesn't incur any other weird things I need to explain.

The joke is epic magic is broken.

Anyway, so if you dip into Kingdoms of Kalamar (which is Wizards-approved but also 3rd-party) I believe there is a Metamagic called Irresistible spell. Also, Incantatrix. Just... Incantatrix.

[Red Fel]

First off, have you spoken with Afroakuma? Talk to Afroakuma. You'll get a lot of mileage out of that conversation.

Second: I'm inclined to think that #5 is going to be your running line. A lot of the stuff involving the biggest cosmic powers is sort of "play it by ear" territory, where the DM can basically do as they like. So if you want a souped-up version of Planar Binding or Disjunction, fine; similarly, if you'd prefer that it involve placing the Twelve Stones of Mystery upon the Altar of Ages underneath a Blood Moon while chanting the Third Hymn of Terror, that works too. It's whatever you want.

With regard to numbers 3 and 4... Ahh. Flavor country. You're in my world now.

Let's say you're going with Abraxas. He's basically a demon version of Vecna, in many ways - he deals with magic and secrets and all that fun stuff. But where Vecna is NE, Abraxas, being a Demon, is CE. And where Vecna is a powerful wizard who transcended mortality twice over - once becoming a lich, then again becoming a god - Abraxas is a Demon, and has quite possibly always been such. So let's start with that.

First: Abraxas is a Demon Lord. This means several things. First, it means that he's made out of cosmic-grade Evil. You know, the strong stuff. His body is a reflection of his soul, and his soul is some scary crap. Second, he's a Demon Lord. That means that he is an exceptionally powerful Demon, and has forced at least one layer of the Abyss to recognize his authority. Having a semi-intelligent plane recognize you as an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, with all the cruelty and power that entails, should tell you something. Lastly, he's an Outsider. That means that he's functionally immortal. He doesn't age, doesn't eat, doesn't sleep, and it's almost (almost!) impossible to permanently kill him. And even if you were to thwart him, he would have an eternity to plot his revenge.

Now let's delve into the person more. Like most Demons, he wants. Different Demons want differently. The write-ups I've seen on Abraxas all tend to lean the same way - he has god-envy. He preaches to his followers that the gods are tyrants, and that only he can free them from the gods' tyranny. His cultists them come to him and are eventually devoured, fueling his power. Yet despite that, he is not (at least, not in 3.X) a god himself. Clearly, however, he seems to have an interest in entering that particular market.

So, here's the question: He plans to take over Faerun. Why? What's his motivation? An easy one, in my mind, is this: In Faerun, deity-worship is mandatory. Those who don't have a patron deity go to the Wall of the Faithless. It's a bad ending. According to the resources I've found, Abraxas' following is seen as mostly harmless. Perhaps, then, his goal in taking over Faerun is to cause a mass faith exodus - to force the living to switch from their mandatory deity-worship to his cult. Perhaps he feels that he can't accomplish this without taking a more active role in the Faerunian Material Plane. Dig me? Work on that part.

Most importantly: Demon does not mean crazy. It does not mean ADHD. A Demon can plan. A Demon can scheme. A Demon can be really good at planning and scheming. Don't be afraid to make him a chin-stroking mastermind, even though you would usually think of Devils doing that.

Now, let's move onto cultists. His cult, as described, comes across more as "get your cheap magic trinkets here!" rather than a proper cult. So let's ditch that altogether and make something new. My suggestion? Why just one? Abraxas handles many fields, and a plot this massive requires a contingency or five. So have multiple cults. One, naturally, would be dedicated to overthrowing the Helm-ocracy. These guys would be almost like a sleeper cell, mostly unaware of the true nature of their benefactor; they'd be composed of undercover arcane casters and the like, people who just feel oppressed by the arcane ban. Another would be arcane craftsmen - with arcane magic abolished, these people politely offered their services creating magic items to reproduce arcane effects, without using their magic independently. Perhaps some of them build secret back-doors into the items they craft, but otherwise, they're the "legitimate front" of Abraxas' operations. (Bonus points if this group comes under fire from the Arcane Underground, who sees them as "traitors and collaborators.") You might have a decoy cult, a bunch of loonies and whackjobs being used by Abraxas' followers as a cats-paw, to keep any would-be heroes off of their trail. And naturally, you'd have at least one group of the genuine article - mad cultists seeking demonic power and to secure their master's hold over the material plane. Once you've determined how that's going to happen, you can figure out their agenda and plan accordingly.

[Ephemeral_Being]

The joke is epic magic is broken.

Anyway, so if you dip into Kingdoms of Kalamar (which is Wizards-approved but also 3rd-party) I believe there is a Metamagic called Irresistible spell. Also, Incantatrix. Just... Incantatrix.

Which book, from Kingdoms of Kalamar? That's a setting. The Player's Guide?

And I assume that's going to make the spell even harder to cast? So, I still kind of need an answer on how metamagic influences spell slots above 9th.


First off, have you spoken with Afroakuma? Talk to Afroakuma. You'll get a lot of mileage out of that conversation.

I don't know what that means. I assume he's a user here?

[Karl Aegis]

Theoretically it could, if the Demon Lord failed the save (unless I'm mistaken, there is a save for that spell). It is an outsider and if it's not outright immune you could do that. Though with epic magic, you could just animate the plane he's on and have it grapple him for all eternity.

Coincidentally, what would the size modifier on the Abyss be? It's infinite, so I'd say something like + Banana Pudding.

The Abyss is an outsider with between 161-240 hit dice. I assume you know that way lies madness.

[Ephemeral_Being]

With regard to numbers 3 and 4... Ahh. Flavor country. You're in my world now.

Let's say you're going with Abraxas. He's basically a demon version of Vecna, in many ways - he deals with magic and secrets and all that fun stuff. But where Vecna is NE, Abraxas, being a Demon, is CE. And where Vecna is a powerful wizard who transcended mortality twice over - once becoming a lich, then again becoming a god - Abraxas is a Demon, and has quite possibly always been such. So let's start with that.

First: Abraxas is a Demon Lord. This means several things. First, it means that he's made out of cosmic-grade Evil. You know, the strong stuff. His body is a reflection of his soul, and his soul is some scary crap. Second, he's a Demon Lord. That means that he is an exceptionally powerful Demon, and has forced at least one layer of the Abyss to recognize his authority. Having a semi-intelligent plane recognize you as an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, with all the cruelty and power that entails, should tell you something. Lastly, he's an Outsider. That means that he's functionally immortal. He doesn't age, doesn't eat, doesn't sleep, and it's almost (almost!) impossible to permanently kill him. And even if you were to thwart him, he would have an eternity to plot his revenge.

Now let's delve into the person more. Like most Demons, he wants. Different Demons want differently. The write-ups I've seen on Abraxas all tend to lean the same way - he has god-envy. He preaches to his followers that the gods are tyrants, and that only he can free them from the gods' tyranny. His cultists them come to him and are eventually devoured, fueling his power. Yet despite that, he is not (at least, not in 3.X) a god himself. Clearly, however, he seems to have an interest in entering that particular market.

So, here's the question: He plans to take over Faerun. Why? What's his motivation? An easy one, in my mind, is this: In Faerun, deity-worship is mandatory. Those who don't have a patron deity go to the Wall of the Faithless. It's a bad ending. According to the resources I've found, Abraxas' following is seen as mostly harmless. Perhaps, then, his goal in taking over Faerun is to cause a mass faith exodus - to force the living to switch from their mandatory deity-worship to his cult. Perhaps he feels that he can't accomplish this without taking a more active role in the Faerunian Material Plane. Dig me? Work on that part.

Most importantly: Demon does not mean crazy. It does not mean ADHD. A Demon can plan. A Demon can scheme. A Demon can be really good at planning and scheming. Don't be afraid to make him a chin-stroking mastermind, even though you would usually think of Devils doing that.

Now, let's move onto cultists. His cult, as described, comes across more as "get your cheap magic trinkets here!" rather than a proper cult. So let's ditch that altogether and make something new. My suggestion? Why just one? Abraxas handles many fields, and a plot this massive requires a contingency or five. So have multiple cults. One, naturally, would be dedicated to overthrowing the Helm-ocracy. These guys would be almost like a sleeper cell, mostly unaware of the true nature of their benefactor; they'd be composed of undercover arcane casters and the like, people who just feel oppressed by the arcane ban. Another would be arcane craftsmen - with arcane magic abolished, these people politely offered their services creating magic items to reproduce arcane effects, without using their magic independently. Perhaps some of them build secret back-doors into the items they craft, but otherwise, they're the "legitimate front" of Abraxas' operations. (Bonus points if this group comes under fire from the Arcane Underground, who sees them as "traitors and collaborators.") You might have a decoy cult, a bunch of loonies and whackjobs being used by Abraxas' followers as a cats-paw, to keep any would-be heroes off of their trail. And naturally, you'd have at least one group of the genuine article - mad cultists seeking demonic power and to secure their master's hold over the material plane. Once you've determined how that's going to happen, you can figure out their agenda and plan accordingly.

Oh, my god. I should have started posting here AGES ago...

The god-envy is exactly the vibe I got off of him. I was avoiding posting too much about the plot, because I figured people didn't care, But, now...

I was going with the Planescape idea of gods, that they're only as powerful as the number of their worshipers. So his plan was to conquer a province in Faerun, and make all the people there-in start to worship him. And then, obviously, branch out from there, seeking MORE worshipers through a combination of fear and oppression. Basically, "Worship me or be killed." Helm preserves balance. A new god would upset that balance. Therefore, Helm seeks to stop his rise to power.

The bit you put about the craftsmen selling amulets with a sort of secret, backdoor magic in them? I love it. That fits RIGHT in with what I was doing already. The Wizards were selling artifacts to commoners to continue gaining the benefit of arcane magic, without actually "casting" it. Some of them SHOULD be cursed. I hadn't thought of that, but it's so smart. Multiple cults I've already got going. Three of them, one an offshoot that became necromancers, one arsons (that the town knows about, and is actively hunting), and an actual, successful, secret group they still haven't met yet.

Whatcha think? I've been dying to discuss this with someone for ages.

[atemu1234]

Which book, from Kingdoms of Kalamar? That's a setting. The Player's Guide?

And I assume that's going to make the spell even harder to cast? So, I still kind of need an answer on how metamagic influences spell slots above 9th.

Incantatrix. My favorite PrC (especially for abjurers but on conjurers it's pretty darn good too). Properly optimized you can apply metamagic feats with nary but a spellcraft check.

Also, yes, the player's guide. My brain had a malfunction.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Incantatrix. My favorite PrC (especially for abjurers but on conjurers it's pretty darn good too). Properly optimized you can apply metamagic feats with nary but a spellcraft check.

Also, yes, the player's guide. My brain had a malfunction.

Okay, so reading this you need two Incantrix, and one Wizard to perform the ritual.

Incantrix 1 uses "Cooperative Metamagic" to put Intensify on Greater Planar Binding. That's a Spellcraft check with a DC of 10+3(15-1) assuming she's a 10th level Incantrix, and therefore has Improved Metamagic. So, either 52, or 55.

Incantrix 2 uses "Cooperative Metamagic" to put "Irresistable Spell" on Greater Planar Binding. That's a Spellcraft check with a DC of 10+3(11-1) assuming she's a 10th level Incantrix, and therefore has Improved Metamagic. So, either 40, or 43.

Wizard casts Greater Planar Binding, and using the true name of the Demon Lord calls him from the Abyss.

That is, RAW, a way to call forth and bind a Demon Lord? Am I missing anything?

[atemu1234]

Okay, so reading this you need two Incantrix, and one Wizard to perform the ritual.

Incantrix 1 uses "Cooperative Metamagic" to put Intensify on Greater Planar Binding. That's a Spellcraft check with a DC of 10+3(15-1) assuming she's a 10th level Incantrix, and therefore has Improved Metamagic. So, either 52, or 55.

Incantrix 2 uses "Cooperative Metamagic" to put "Irresistable Spell" on Greater Planar Binding. That's a Spellcraft check with a DC of 10+3(11-1) assuming she's a 10th level Incantrix, and therefore has Improved Metamagic. So, either 40, or 43.

Wizard casts Greater Planar Binding, and using the true name of the Demon Lord calls him from the Abyss.

That is, RAW, a way to call forth and bind a Demon Lord? Am I missing anything?

Seems alright to me; however, note I do not have the books in front of me.

[Red Fel]

Oh, my god.

Please. Just call me Fel.


I was going with the Planescape idea of gods, that they're only as powerful as the number of their worshipers. So his plan was to conquer a province in Faerun, and make all the people there-in start to worship him. And then, obviously, branch out from there, seeking MORE worshipers through a combination of fear and oppression. Basically, "Worship me or be killed." Helm preserves balance. A new god would upset that balance. Therefore, Helm seeks to stop his rise to power.

Well, before you go any further, consider this important distinction: Which of the following statements is true under your cosmology? A god's power is proportionate to the number of his worshipers. An individual's divine power is proportionate to the number of his worshipers.
The distinction is important, and here's why: If that dependency on worshipers for power is a function of being a god, but not a function of becoming one, then acquiring every worshiper in Faerun won't net him godhood. Know what it will do, though? Starve the other gods. There's a possible angle, for you - maybe he intends to blackmail the gods into inducting him into their august order. After all, even if he doesn't achieve apotheosis himself, he'll certainly cut off the pantheon from its power supply. If he can't have godhood, he'll see to it that nobody does. So keep that motivation in mind.


Whatcha think? I've been dying to discuss this with someone for ages.

It's sounding good so far. And I like your setting as you've described it. Several questions arise, though. What are the other gods doing while Helm is about his business? Are they taking sides? What are the other cosmic powers (Demon Princes, Archons, Archdevils) doing while Abraxas is about his business? Are they even aware, and if so, are they taking sides? Or bets? How is Helm going about his anti-cult campaign? Abolishing arcane magic is one thing. Is his church doing anything else? How open are they about their motivations? Big Question: How is Abraxas going about taking over? Cursed magic items are one thing, and a smart thing - I do love that particular trick. But what's the endgame, and how?
These are important points. Neither Helm nor Abraxas exists in a vacuum; they have peers, putative allies and enemies, who may get involved. Don't forget that the PCs are involved too - and not all of them worship Helm. What if one of them is a Demon or Devil cultist? Or worships Mystra? Don't forget that this is Faerun - worship is mandatory. So the PCs will have pre-existing loyalties, and Helm's policy may test them.

[Brookshw]

You may want to also post this in Afro's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372289-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-5!) for further fluffy/lore help.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Alright, so let's ignore making it permanent, for a minute. Say we cast Intensified (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intensify_Spell) Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm), granting 36 HD(!) of summonable Demons. Is that even possible, RAW?

The HD from Planar Binding is not a variable, numeric effect. It is a static number based on caster level; as such intensify spell has no effect on it.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Please. Just call me Fel.



Well, before you go any further, consider this important distinction: Which of the following statements is true under your cosmology? A god's power is proportionate to the number of his worshipers. An individual's divine power is proportionate to the number of his worshipers.
The distinction is important, and here's why: If that dependency on worshipers for power is a function of being a god, but not a function of becoming one, then acquiring every worshiper in Faerun won't net him godhood. Know what it will do, though? Starve the other gods. There's a possible angle, for you - maybe he intends to blackmail the gods into inducting him into their august order. After all, even if he doesn't achieve apotheosis himself, he'll certainly cut off the pantheon from its power supply. If he can't have godhood, he'll see to it that nobody does. So keep that motivation in mind.



It's sounding good so far. And I like your setting as you've described it. Several questions arise, though. What are the other gods doing while Helm is about his business? Are they taking sides? What are the other cosmic powers (Demon Princes, Archons, Archdevils) doing while Abraxas is about his business? Are they even aware, and if so, are they taking sides? Or bets? How is Helm going about his anti-cult campaign? Abolishing arcane magic is one thing. Is his church doing anything else? How open are they about their motivations? Big Question: How is Abraxas going about taking over? Cursed magic items are one thing, and a smart thing - I do love that particular trick. But what's the endgame, and how?
These are important points. Neither Helm nor Abraxas exists in a vacuum; they have peers, putative allies and enemies, who may get involved. Don't forget that the PCs are involved too - and not all of them worship Helm. What if one of them is a Demon or Devil cultist? Or worships Mystra? Don't forget that this is Faerun - worship is mandatory. So the PCs will have pre-existing loyalties, and Helm's policy may test them.

Ha ha. Can do, Fel.

My PCs are first/second level. They're observers, right now. My goal is to show them the cosmic scale of the universe, and that often, things are beyond their control. I mean, they have a role to play. And they could theoretically still have an effect. But all of this stuff is already going. The plot started in media res, and if they spend a month messing around doing sidequests, that's fine. But the world keeps spinning.

Here was my thinking, as for Abraxas's plan to "ascend to be a god." Planescape has this thing called a "divine spark." If you're born with one, you can theoretically become a god. Contingent upon a series of rituals, and the belief thing. But, you steal them from people that you kill. So I was thinking that the party would have to find and protect the carrier of a Divine Spark. That would be what they CAN do. It's not going to be one of the party. That's stupid. But someone they encounter, or even someone random that they have to find. That's how Saint Cuthbert became a god, according to the books. And one of our players is a cleric of Saint Cuthbert. So I was thinking, he could "remember" this information with a Knowledge (Religion) check. It's not great, but it falls within the realm of possibility for how they could become involved in something this massive. And if they fail to stop the summoning ritual, it's a way they could still stop the ascension to godhood, while MUCH stronger forces did battle with Abraxas. The entire Bastion of Helm, for example.

As for the other gods... I admittedly had no plan. It makes sense they would be involved, but I don't want to clutter it up too much. I basically said that the town had a bunch of small temples, but was dominated by Helm. 95% worship Helm, and 5% the others. They're not big here, in this province. How about this? Following the Time of Troubles, in which Helm killed Mystra, Abraxas has decided that this is his chance to break free from The Abyss. He's going to become the next Mystra. That actually makes sense. She was the god of magic, after all. But Helm thinks that this will unbalance the Pantheon. If one Demon Lord ascends to godhood, what's to stop Abaddon from doing the same? And that could cast the entire world into disarray. But, see, during the Time of Troubles, Helm was the one who actually dealt the lethal blow to Mystra. And this made the other gods angry with him. They had known Mystra for centuries. It's like killing a member of their family. So they're unwilling to help him. Blinded by spite, they're refusing to listen to Helm. And will continue to, until it's too late.

Other Demons/Devils... are curious to know if this works? Abraxas is the foremost authority on magic in Hell or the Abyss. If anyone has found a way to ascend, it would be him. So they don't want to interfere. They don't want to stop him, because they want to see if he's right. And they don't want to HELP him, because if the attempt fails, there's a chance Helm comes down to pound on them. But, if this DOES work, you can bet they'll all immediately be clamoring at the gates to escape.

As for my PCs, only ONE has a god. The Cleric. Even our Paladin is godless right now. Which is actually stupid. I should make them pick gods, and have an ethos. But as for their alignment, they're all mostly neutral/good-aligned. The chaotic characters are verbally railing against Helm's perceived "tyranny," but because everything seems to be mostly alright in both the Wizard Den on the outskirts of town, and the town proper, no one really feels a need to upend the system right now. They don't really have... loyalties to anything beyond their own characterizations. This is a bunch of new players. None of them has ever played a DnD game before. Part of my job is to introduce them to the cosmology, and the sheer scale of power in the world. So that they don't get a crazy idea, like "Let's go kill Lolth."

What do you think? That's mostly off the top of my head. I didn't think this far ahead. These first few sessions have been mechanics. What's alignment, what's the DC on this spell, how do I attack? Those kinds of questions. But we're getting into the actual plot now, which is why I really need to get this fleshed out.

[Ephemeral_Being]

The HD from Planar Binding is not a variable, numeric effect. It is a static number based on caster level; as such intensify spell has no effect on it.

Okay. I wasn't sure. The definition wasn't clear if HD counted.

In that case, what CAN I do to either increase the HD that Planar Binding affects, or get a better spell? I'm shooting for around 22-24 HD.

[Red Fel]

Here was my thinking, as for Abraxas's plan to "ascend to be a god." Planescape has this thing called a "divine spark." If you're born with one, you can theoretically become a god. Contingent upon a series of rituals, and the belief thing. But, you steal them from people that you kill. So I was thinking that the party would have to find and protect the carrier of a Divine Spark. That would be what they CAN do. It's not going to be one of the party. That's stupid. But someone they encounter, or even someone random that they have to find. That's how Saint Cuthbert became a god, according to the books. And one of our players is a cleric of Saint Cuthbert. So I was thinking, he could "remember" this information with a Knowledge (Religion) check. It's not great, but it falls within the realm of possibility for how they could become involved in something this massive. And if they fail to stop the summoning ritual, it's a way they could still stop the ascension to godhood, while MUCH stronger forces did battle with Abraxas. The entire Bastion of Helm, for example.

It sounds okay, but here are two things to remember.

First: It's fine if the PCs are mostly observers at low levels. But don't leave them that way forever. As they get stronger, they need to feel that they're having an impact on events as they unfold. Otherwise, they're just spectators in your story, and it goes from being an interactive game to a one-sided reading of the latest chapter of your novel. Don't be that DM.

Second: It's fine to have a "divine spark" NPC. But remember one of the cardinal rules - nobody can have plot armor. If they fail to protect the NPC, the NPC should die. If they succeed in protecting the NPC when you were really hoping they'd fail, they still succeeded and the NPC lives. And if they decide to kill the NPC themselves, they kill the NPC, assuming all the rolls work out. That's why it's dangerous to center a plot around the PCs doing, not doing, locating, protecting, or destroying a single thing - if they fail to do as planned, you'd better have a backup plan.


As for the other gods... I admittedly had no plan. It makes sense they would be involved, but I don't want to clutter it up too much. I basically said that the town had a bunch of small temples, but was dominated by Helm. 95% worship Helm, and 5% the others. They're not big here, in this province. How about this? Following the Time of Troubles, in which Helm killed Mystra, Abraxas has decided that this is his chance to break free from The Abyss. He's going to become the next Mystra. That actually makes sense. She was the god of magic, after all. But Helm thinks that this will unbalance the Pantheon. If one Demon Lord ascends to godhood, what's to stop Abaddon from doing the same? And that could cast the entire world into disarray. But, see, during the Time of Troubles, Helm was the one who actually dealt the lethal blow to Mystra. And this made the other gods angry with him. They had known Mystra for centuries. It's like killing a member of their family. So they're unwilling to help him. Blinded by spite, they're refusing to listen to Helm. And will continue to, until it's too late.

That's potentially very intriguing. Particularly because one of the PCs is a Cleric of St. Cuthbert. It would be interesting to see just how much Big St. C. lets his hand on the Material intervene in Helm's affairs. I like it. Be aware, however, that once Abraxas' plans are in full swing, in the final phases, it'll be hard for the rest of the pantheon to ignore what's going on.


Other Demons/Devils... are curious to know if this works? Abraxas is the foremost authority on magic in Hell or the Abyss. If anyone has found a way to ascend, it would be him. So they don't want to interfere. They don't want to stop him, because they want to see if he's right. And they don't want to HELP him, because if the attempt fails, there's a chance Helm comes down to pound on them. But, if this DOES work, you can bet they'll all immediately be clamoring at the gates to escape.

Smart. So they're hedging their bets. You might consider having some of their cultists lurking around the fringes, as possible allies/enemies. Naturally, they want to be on the winning side; if it looks like Abraxas is going to succeed, they might start getting in the PCs' way, but if it looks like he's on a downward slope, they might toss a bit of infernal advice to the PCs. Keep in mind that, as big a place as the cosmology is, there's politicking going on of which the PCs will only ever be vaguely aware.


As for my PCs, only ONE has a god. The Cleric. Even our Paladin is godless right now. Which is actually stupid. I should make them pick gods, and have an ethos. But as for their alignment, they're all mostly neutral/good-aligned. The chaotic characters are verbally railing against Helm's perceived "tyranny," but because everything seems to be mostly alright in both the Wizard Den on the outskirts of town, and the town proper, no one really feels a need to upend the system right now. They don't really have... loyalties to anything beyond their own characterizations. This is a bunch of new players. None of them has ever played a DnD game before. Part of my job is to introduce them to the cosmology, and the sheer scale of power in the world. So that they don't get a crazy idea, like "Let's go kill Lolth."

Yeah, you really need to hammer home the whole "Wall of the Faithless" thing. Faerun has pretty major standards about that sort of thing, and is somewhat unique in that respect. They don't all have to be Clerics, or even zealous, but they do have to have an ethos. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.


What do you think? That's mostly off the top of my head. I didn't think this far ahead. These first few sessions have been mechanics. What's alignment, what's the DC on this spell, how do I attack? Those kinds of questions. But we're getting into the actual plot now, which is why I really need to get this fleshed out.

Sounds like you're doing a bang-up job of it, chief.

[afroakuma]

As for the other gods... I admittedly had no plan.

If you still need help on this, let me know in my thread, I've got you covered.

[goto124]

They don't really have... loyalties to anything beyond their own characterizations. This is a bunch of new players. None of them has ever played a DnD game before. Part of my job is to introduce them to the cosmology, and the sheer scale of power in the world. So that they don't get a crazy idea, like "Let's go kill Lolth."


Yeah, you really need to hammer home the whole "Wall of the Faithless" thing. Faerun has pretty major standards about that sort of thing, and is somewhat unique in that respect. They don't all have to be Clerics, or even zealous, but they do have to have an ethos.

Wait, new players? This is going to be interesting. New and modern-thinking players probably won't really like the idea of god worship, ethos and stuff, and it shows in their characters. You the DM might not like people using modern thinking in old medieval worlds, but everyone needs to have fun in the game.

It could be best to sit down with them to discuss the ethos. How much do they have to stick to it? Can they pretend and claim to be worshipping some god, while actually giving only lip service? Do you really want new players to run into the good old morality problems paladins (and even those without such strict codes) face? Could the ethos be made almost purely of stuff even a Chaotic Good could follow, like 'do not murder and torture for pleasure'?

At least warn the newbies that the campaign world runs on old Lawful god-worship morality, and either be prepared to follow it, or leave the game.

(Personally, as a Chaotic and a new player, I would avoid anything with Walls of Faithless, but that's off-topic.)

[Ephemeral_Being]

First: It's fine if the PCs are mostly observers at low levels. But don't leave them that way forever. As they get stronger, they need to feel that they're having an impact on events as they unfold. Otherwise, they're just spectators in your story, and it goes from being an interactive game to a one-sided reading of the latest chapter of your novel. Don't be that DM.

Absolutely. That's a given. They're doing small things, now. I just meant they're never going to actually throw down with a demon lord. Or even come close to fighting alongside Helm.


Second: It's fine to have a "divine spark" NPC. But remember one of the cardinal rules - nobody can have plot armor. If they fail to protect the NPC, the NPC should die. If they succeed in protecting the NPC when you were really hoping they'd fail, they still succeeded and the NPC lives. And if they decide to kill the NPC themselves, they kill the NPC, assuming all the rolls work out. That's why it's dangerous to center a plot around the PCs doing, not doing, locating, protecting, or destroying a single thing - if they fail to do as planned, you'd better have a backup plan.

And again, that's a given. Anyone who dies is dead. I'm not protecting this guy. I don't get involved in ANYTHING the players do. I let them walk into a room and try to stab the king, if they want to. We do everything by the book. It's why I'm so keen on finding a RAW way to summon Abraxas. Because if they don't get to homebrew things to make their plans work, I don't, either.


That's potentially very intriguing. Particularly because one of the PCs is a Cleric of St. Cuthbert. It would be interesting to see just how much Big St. C. lets his hand on the Material intervene in Helm's affairs. I like it. Be aware, however, that once Abraxas' plans are in full swing, in the final phases, it'll be hard for the rest of the pantheon to ignore what's going on.

Smart. So they're hedging their bets. You might consider having some of their cultists lurking around the fringes, as possible allies/enemies. Naturally, they want to be on the winning side; if it looks like Abraxas is going to succeed, they might start getting in the PCs' way, but if it looks like he's on a downward slope, they might toss a bit of infernal advice to the PCs. Keep in mind that, as big a place as the cosmology is, there's politicking going on of which the PCs will only ever be vaguely aware.

They'll get involved later, if the summoning goes through. Join in the war to reclaim the city, if it falls. And cast him back into the depths. Or something. I like the idea of the other demon lords trying to join the "winning" side. I don't know if I'll exactly be able to work that in. Or how they would "help" the characters. It's really interesting, and seems good motivation-wise. But it just seems hard to do correctly.

Thanks for all the help. It was great to get talk through these ideas with someone. This has been fantastically useful.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Wait, new players? This is going to be interesting. New and modern-thinking players probably won't really like the idea of god worship, ethos and stuff, and it shows in their characters. You the DM might not like people using modern thinking in old medieval worlds, but everyone needs to have fun in the game.

It could be best to sit down with them to discuss the ethos. How much do they have to stick to it? Can they pretend and claim to be worshipping some god, while actually giving only lip service? Do you really want new players to run into the good old morality problems paladins (and even those without such strict codes) face? Could the ethos be made almost purely of stuff even a Chaotic Good could follow, like 'do not murder and torture for pleasure'?

At least warn the newbies that the campaign world runs on old Lawful god-worship morality, and either be prepared to follow it, or leave the game.

(Personally, as a Chaotic and a new player, I would avoid anything with Walls of Faithless, but that's off-topic.)

I think you misunderstood what I meant. For the record, I'm 19. I just REALLY like lore, and storycrafting.

I've got no problem with them picking a god that suits their ethos. That just makes sense. And changing that god if it doesn't fit right. There are plenty of CN/CG gods. Corellon Latheon is pretty common in my campaigns. Same with Pelor, and Tiamat. I normally throw in Boccob and Lolth, because I remember them. Helm, obviously. And then whatever else the players want. There's a bunch you can look at. Here's one that probably ANYONE could use. The music part might be a bit odd. But you could leave that out.


Olidammara loves upsetting anyone who seems too attached to an ordered life and a predictable routine. He urges his followers to bend every effort toward mastering the art of music. He also teaches that life is meant to be happy and entertaining, and the best jokes need a target to hang them on. The tables can turn on
any trickster, and Olidammara’s followers should accept the laugh and appreciate the trick when it happens to them. Wine, Olidammara says, is one of the joys of life, and the only thing better than making wine is drinking it. Avoid misery, temperance, and solemnity, for they are the greatest poisons to the soul.

I mean, isn't that basically just "Eat, drink, and be merry?" Come on. How hard can that be?

The Pally/Cleric we've got aren't forced to stick to anything beyond doing GENERALLY what their gods tell them to, in my campaigns. Basically, don't steal and murder people. That's about it, for good-aligned ones. That's one of the few areas that I'm really lax in. Mostly because I'm really bad at remembering what gods are associated with what, and their individual creeds. So unless they're playing something specific, or tell me they want to be locked into a certain morality, I let them do what they want. Within reason.

[goto124]

Thanks for your clarification about gods. Being lax should help plenty, and prevent the newbies from landing in the Brick Wall of Faithless.

Looking 2 posts above, your 'realistic consequences' attitude is troubling when applied to new players, who may not understand the full implications of their actions. Over at the 'Did I screw up as a DM?' thread, the DM had dropped lots of hints to show that the creature is not supposed to be beatable, yet the player went on to fight it because he thought he was supposed to. Clash of logic and all. Be careful.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Thanks for your clarification about gods. Being lax should help plenty, and prevent the newbies from landing in the Brick Wall of Faithless.

Looking 2 posts above, your 'realistic consequences' attitude is troubling when applied to new players, who may not understand the full implications of their actions. Over at the 'Did I screw up as a DM?' thread, the DM had dropped lots of hints to show that the creature is not supposed to be beatable, yet the player went on to fight it because he thought he was supposed to. Clash of logic and all. Be careful.

No, I abuse Knowledge checks. We make them for all KINDS of things. There's plenty of warning when something is dangerous. I think.

And I told them flat-out when we started that there are forces that are incredibly powerful. They know what gods are, power-wise. In two sessions, we've nearly killed three characters. They understand not trying to fight the town guards, or take on the High Clerics in the Temple of Helm. I read that post, and I think the PC that attacked a demigod is an idiot. I don't feel bad for him at all.