Let's... Let's ALL Read: The Hand of Thrawn [SPOILERS AHOY] [Archive]

pendell

2015-01-30, 08:36 AM

Chapter 1

It is ten years after the events of the Thrawn Trilogy. As is traditional with Star Wars, we fade in on a Star Destroyer : The old Chimaera, Captain Ardiff commanding. Now-Admiral Pelleaon is also aboard, to observe an exercise.

In this exercise, the Chimaera will be conducting defense against a complement of her own fighters: 8 Sorusuub Preybirds (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Preybird-class_starfighter) which will be treated as if they are armed with capital ship turbolasers for this engagement. All actual fire will be harmless, of course, but the electronic systems on all craft will shut down just as if they were struck by real damage.

Ardiff question how fair a test it is to give Preybirds guns they could never actually have in the field. Pelleon responds acidly, "If you want fairness, organize a shockball tournament".

Incidentally, the Preybird shows up in X-wing Alliance , as shown in this Example Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQuhs0M1kpw). It is flyable in multiplayer, and is a marked improvement in every way over standard TIE fighters, though they still don't have the firepower of an X-wing.

Come to think of it, pretty much everything in the galaxy is an improvement on the TIE Fighter. Perhaps the Empire can't afford to build expendable ships for their starfighter pilots anymore.

We learn a number of exposition facts; The Empire, once more than a million systems, now has less than a thousand in 8 sectors. The fleet of 25000 star destroyers now has less than 200. And almost every formerly undecided system is petitioning the Republic for membership.

The war doesn't look good, but the Empire isn't done yet. Hence this test.

Pelleon is experimenting with a new technology called the Predictor in conjunction with cloaking technology. After allowing two control passes by adversary starfighters, the cloaking shield is flipped on and the Chimaera's turbolasers fire under Predictor control on the routes they expect the Preybirds to follow.

It DOES do better than simply random shooting, but nowhere near well enough. One of the Sorusuubs is disabled out of the eight, and it took five hundred shots to make this happen.

Pelleon judges the experiment a failure. He signals for the remaining eight moffs of the Empire to convene for a conference. It's time to surrender. As General Lee once said at Appomattox Courthouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Appomattox_Court_House) , ""Then there is nothing left for me to do but to go and see General Grant and I would rather die a thousand deaths.""

I appreciate his willingness to do this. The modern army has , as part of its creed, "I will never accept defeat" -- but that's the attitude of a superpower which hasn't lost a conventional battle in more than a generation. In wars where the opponents are more evenly matched, you'd better hope someone is willing to accept defeat, or the war either never ends, or ends in mass slaughter. Pelleon believes the only way to salvage anything of the Empire-that-was is to surrender now , while they still have some bargaining leverage. In this I suspect he is right.

Chapter 2

Han and Luke are on a diplomatic mission to [I don't remember]. Han is filling in for Leia so she can take some well-needed rest with their three children; he has tricked the Republic into thinking she is on this trip with them, but she's not. Ten years since they complained about not enough time, and they're still working her as hard as ever, such is the life of the altruistic volunteer!

The indigenous people flatly refuse to accept Luke's presence at the conference. Luke also picks up that Han is a little nervous about him too. Why...?

At any rate, Han wangles an advisory capacity for Luke, which means he stays back on the ship. Han goes in alone and, to no one's surprise, completely messes up.

While these events are ongoing, they receive a Customs Red Alert -- inbound ship with highly dangerous and illegal cargo. The local defense force scrambles pretty much everything to intercept the inbound.

Han, however, is a bit more cunning than that. He and Luke travel to the exact opposite side of the planet and wait. Han believes this is a feint to draw off the locals, and when they are distracted a pirate force, which he expects to consist of 2 or 3 ships, will hit a target on the other side of the world. He and Luke will be waiting for them when it does.

And so it occurs, but with one minor miscalculation: Rather than 2 or 3 pirate ships, there are 8: ,1 Kaloth (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kaloth-class_battlecruiser)-class battle cruiser, 2 Correlian Gunships (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_Thunder_%28DP20_frigate%29), and 5 Corsair (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corsair-class_cruiser) starfighters for escort.

Luke considers just defeating them with the force alone -- perhaps by tearing their ships apart via telekinesis, or just disabling them by hitting the control surfaces, or mind-tricking the pilots. As he considers this, he sees a brief force vision of Exar Kun and Darth Sidious laughing at him.

So he forebears. Instead, he fights this battle the old-fashioned way, with ace piloting only guided by the Force. They disabled the battlecruiser's ion cannon, then wipe out the escorting starfighters in short order. The cruiser and its gunships immediately retreat, ending the battle.

Something odd; Luke could sense Spaarti clones on the cruiser, the first time he'd detected that in a long time. Why were they there...?

In the aftermath of the battle , Luke and Han discuss. They conclude, based on the presence of clones and the lack of identifying markings, unusual for pirates, that the pirates were privateers working for the Empire. Strange. What did they want...? Privateers aren't cheap.

Luke flat out asks Han what the deal is with the locals, and Han tells him point blank that they're afraid he's in danger of falling to the Dark Side -- Jedi with the kind of power he is displaying ALWAYS end up falling. And Han seemingly is a bit worried about that too. Han is a bit relieved Luke fought this last battle in a conventional way, rather than getting "all flashy". Luke ponders these things.

I have to wonder if this isn't a not-so-subtle dig at the Jedi Sue-ism of the rest of the EU. The Jedi in other EU stories have blown up suns, pulled star destroyers from orbit, and done all kinds of things. It's hard to see why you even need the rest of the forces when Jedi are that powerful. Zahn resets our expectations; For the Jedi, the use of the Force [in his stories] is fraught with the danger of falling to the Dark Side, so wise Jedi limit their use of same. This also has the benefit of allowing the rest of his non-Jedi ensemble a chance to shine.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-01-30, 08:44 AM

I have to wonder if this isn't a not-so-subtle dig at the Jedi Sue-ism of the rest of the EU. The Jedi in other EU stories have blown up suns, pulled star destroyers from orbit, and done all kinds of things. It's hard to see why you even need the rest of the forces when Jedi are that powerful. Zahn resets our expectations; For the Jedi, the use of the Force [in his stories] is fraught with the danger of falling to the Dark Side, so wise Jedi limit their use of same. This also has the benefit of allowing the rest of his non-Jedi ensemble a chance to shine.

Zahn pretty much says that outright in an interview in 2000:

TFN: With the "Hand of Thrawn" duology, the situation seems reversed 180 degrees. Because now instead of Lucasfilm saying there were some things you can not touch, there almost seems like there's some "damage control" going on here. When you see Mara Jade saying that she doesn't believe the Emperor was resurrected, and that kind of segues into what's going on now with Star Wars literature. Were there any kind of instructions you were under, like, "go in and fix this"?

TZ: (laughing) No no, not at all. It was my perception of some of the things that I didn't care for. All the stuff passed Lucasfilm, and it was all authorized. But other authors' visions of what Star Wars is and what it should be are not necessarily what I would do. And one reason I agreed to do the "Hand of Thrawn" was to kind of get the last word, so to speak. Now... the New Jedi Order is taking off with my character Mara Jade. But I wanted a "last word", one more bit of input into certainly my characters and my vision of Star Wars. But there were some things there that I thought were out of character, were not the way I saw Star Wars. And I wanted to kind of talk about them, make some kind of rationale about them, bring things back to what I thought, and if Lucasfilm agreed, it would come out in the books. If it didn't, we would have some problems of reconciliation. One of the dangers you always have with a "superman"-type character is making them too powerful. And I think that was the direction Luke was being taken: he was getting more and more powerful. The danger of that is, the books get boring: "why can't he just wave his hand and fix the problem on page four?" I wanted to bring him back down to a level that you saw Yoda and Ben doing in the movies, where there's certainly a power there, but it's not as flamboyant as, say, some of the things in some of the books. So I did what I thought was useful and necessary and made sense, and Lucasfilm apparently agreed. Or at least decided it was no better or worse than anyone else's ideas.

russdm

2015-01-30, 02:08 PM

Luke flat out asks Han what the deal is with the locals, and Han tells him point blank that they're afraid he's in danger of falling to the Dark Side -- Jedi with the kind of power he is displaying ALWAYS end up falling. And Han seemingly is a bit worried about that too. Han is a bit relieved Luke fought this last battle in a conventional way, rather than getting "all flashy". Luke ponders these things.

I have to wonder if this isn't a not-so-subtle dig at the Jedi Sue-ism of the rest of the EU. The Jedi in other EU stories have blown up suns, pulled star destroyers from orbit, and done all kinds of things. It's hard to see why you even need the rest of the forces when Jedi are that powerful. Zahn resets our expectations; For the Jedi, the use of the Force [in his stories] is fraught with the danger of falling to the Dark Side, so wise Jedi limit their use of same. This also has the benefit of allowing the rest of his non-Jedi ensemble a chance to shine.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It is like being a Wizard in D&D 3.5 where you have the ability to solve nearly every problem. It makes the story uninteresting, and the increasing power creep of the Jedi moved beyond what we saw in the movies heavily. Both Yoda and Ben relied heavily on the Force for wisdom and insight, not flashy displays of power, which is what Sith are better known for. The Force offers Knowledge and Defense, but when you are always throwing powers around you start to lose that knowledge and defense because you aren't really paying attention to the Force as much as yourself.

Yoda, the wisest jedi master, rarely delivered flashy displays of power and he benefitted heavily from it be having more understanding. There is also the fact that Luke goes throw the different ways he can use the Force to affect the battle and how nearly all of them involved them forcing his will on others. Using Flashy powers is fun, and I think using them too much makes it easier to use them rather than more subdued or peaceful methods to solve problems. Why talk with someone about their concerns when you can simply Jedi mind trick them? Why try to work out solution through talking to a threat from hostiles when you can simply Force-blast them or hit them with Force Lightning or Force Choke them to death? It really changes your outlook on how to deal with problems when you can display such power and it starts to became a default solution.

What Zahn is trying to say here mainly has to be that there are multiple paths to the Dark Side, with Fear-Anger-Hate-Suffering being one and another being an arrogant display of power all the time. Power corrupts, and using that much power would begin corrupting someone.

pendell

2015-01-31, 01:30 PM

True enough; It's very hard to right stories about omnipotent characters.

Before I go on, would note that the second book in this duology, Vision of the Future, is forty-three chapters, nearly twice the length of any of the others. Evidently Zahn was thinking along the same way Yora did, and lumped the last two books into a single volume, rather than produce another unsatisfying Dark Force Rising middle to a trilogy.

Chapter 3

Mara Jade, Leia, and her three children Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin are on Wayland visiting the Noghri, who are relocating here after their own planet has been given up as unsalvageable. Jaina and Jacen are at that age where they are oh so bored with everything, and very superior to their younger sibling. Leia has to play mom a bit.

She is pulled aside to adjudicate a dispute; While the Noghri intend to erase every trace of the Emperor from this world, archaeologists and such are permitted to remove their own historical treasures from the storehouse; the Emperor plundered many worlds and kept the booty on Mount Tantiss.

One such treasure-hunter is Lak Jit, who has evidently been captured while digging around the storehouse. He is in possession of six recovered data cards , all very dirty. He claims to be working for Talon Karrde.

Leia offers him 500 in earnest money for the cards, plus whatever they're worth after an expert on Coruscant has had a chance to evaluate them.

Lak Jit doesn't go for this, possibly aware of the normal government rates for "just compensation". He makes a pretext to step outside, then drops a smoke grenade attached to his shovel, then steals a speeder and makes for his ship.

One again the vaunted Noghri death commandoes are outsmarted. Huh.

Unfortunately for Lak Jit, the Wild Karrde is in orbit. The Noghri call for assistance, and Karrde forces Jit's ship down. Jit tries to bluster his way out, claiming Karrde's name, but it doesn't work well when he's facing the real Karrde backed by two Jedi-powered lie detectors. He winds up surrendering the datacards with a promise of compensation later -- the earnest money was forfeited, Leia says, when he threw a smoke grenade at her children. Karrde considers taking the fee himself. When Lak Jit gets sarcastic about this, Karrde notes that he's fortunate he didn't try this on a Hutt.

The documents are examined. Most are garbage. One has an intriguing title called "The Hand of Thrawn". Another is a document on Caamas ; evidently this was a clone wars era atrocity in which the Caamas, a peaceful people, experienced a Base Delta Zero (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero) at the hands of unknown parties. The document hints this is the Emperor's private record of the event. It indicates that the attack was successful, in part, because Bothan saboteurs sabotaged the planetary shield generators.

This is too much information and too little; they cannot retrieve the names of the Bothans involved, so the entire Bothan race will be blamed by a judgemental, bigoted galaxy. Such a revelation will fracture the delicate political balance the New Republic has worked so hard to attain; worst case, it will mean civil war.

Leia determines to return to Coruscant with the document, to discuss the matter with Counselor Fey'la and to see if they can find a technician capable of cleaning the card.

Chapter 4 :Meet the Villains

Admiral Pellaeon is discussing the need to surrender with the remaining eight Moffs -- sector governers -- of the Empire. It goes over about as well as you would expect. It becomes obvious quickly that the only person of any importance here is Moff Disra, governor of Bastion, the Imperial capital-in-exile. They prefer to remain quiscent and allow the Republic to destroy itself. Pellaeon, who believes no less than they in the long-term instability of the Republic, believes this process will take decades; the Empire will be ground to dust long before, and everyone in this room will be up on war crimes charges.

The debate goes on for an hour, but at the ends , the Moffs concur, giving Pellaeon the authority to open negotiations with the Republic .

Openly, at least.

Pellaeon speaks privately with Moff Disra and his aide-de-camp afterwards. Disra proposes, instead, fomenting chaos and insurgency in the Republic through the use of privateers and pirates, and special forces inserted via cloaked ships. Pellaeon won't hear of it; he has no use for such lowlifes. Disra is a bit surprised at this ; Darth Vader and Thrawn both made use of such, and it served the Empire well.

Pellaeon further antagonizes Disra by asking just where he's getting the Preybirds that are now the standard starfighters of the Fleet. Disra flatly stonewalls him. Pellaeon is determined to investigate this, however, and this does not please Disra at all.

Pellaeon takes his leave, demonstrating that diplomacy remains a growth area for Imperial flag officers.

Disra now confronts his aide -- a Major Tierce. He outs him as not the mediocre military cipher he pretends to be, but as a former member of the Emperor's Royal Guard. This was discovered by searching through the Emperor's private records. Those were as secure as anything reasonably could be, but Disra has some excelllent cryptanalysts on his staff, and all the time in the world.

We learn a bit of his background. He'd been in the Royal Guard and been rotated to regular duty when the second death star blew up, so he didn't get blown to cosmic dust with most of the rest of the guard. He attached himself to Thrawn as an ordinary stormtrooper, and was in fact on the Chimaera when Thrawn was assassinated. This occurred because Tierce, the bodyguard, guessed wrong. He had expected asssassination, but he expected a commando team to board , as Luke had when he rescued Karrde. Thus his team was in the hanger bays and not on the bridge when Thrawn was killed. The most they could do was intercept Rukh and kill him when he attempted to make his escape.

So that confirms Rukh did not make it off the ship alive. A bit disappointing.

Disra asks why he had been serving as an ordinary stormtrooper rather than in a 'special' assignment.

A Guardsman never seeks special privileges. Ever. His entire goal is to serve the Emperor, and the New Order he created. His goal in life and his desire in death.

Disra discusses the merits of his plan. Tierce is unconvinced; He believes [and I concur] that it is too little too late. Even if the best case occurs and the Republic is split, that won't bring the Empire back; it simply means a galactic civil war. The Empire requires a unifying figure, and neither Pellaeon nor Moff Disra fit the bill. Disra is a politician, no charismatic warrior, and Pellaeon is -- honorable and competent, but he's simply not brilliance. And brilliance is what the Empire needs.

Disra takes Tierce to a special part of his quarters where he reveals at least part of his plan -- an absolutely perfect Thrawn impersonator by the name of Flim. He can act the part convincingly. He will persuade the Empire that Thrawn's death was faked and he has returned to lead them. This will give the Empire the charismatic figure that he needs.

Disra also explains a bit more of his plan -- the preybirds come from the Cavrilhu pirates. In exchange for intelligence which allows them to hit Republic targets and support from surviving clone troops, they give him the entirety of their preybird production line.

The clone troops are the best of the galaxy. Where is he getting them? By reading through Thrawn's records to find all the sleepers cells he hid throughout the galaxy. He's raiding those cells and selling the clones as cannon fodder to pirates in exchange for preybirds.

I ... don't think that's at all the use Thrawn intended to make of those clones.

They're needed to fight the Yuuzhan Vong extragalactic threat

And so our villainous triumvirate is complete: Flim the face, Tierce the military genius who will supply the brains Flim lacks, and Tierce the fixer who supplies the resources to make all this happen.

MWAHAHAHAHA!

Although, honestly, this looks like a pretty terrible plan to my mind. A con is something that can only work in the short term; as Flim is continually exposed the cracks and flaws in his disguise is more obvious; you cant' con an entire galaxy, not long term.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-01, 08:55 AM

One has an intriguing title called "The Hand of Thrawn". Another is a document on Caamas ; evidently this was a clone wars era atrocity in which the Caamas, a peaceful people, experienced a Base Delta Zero (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero) at the hands of unknown parties. The document hints this is the Emperor's private record of the event. It indicates that the attack was successful, in part, because Bothan saboteurs sabotaged the planetary shield generators.

In Rebel Dawn (book 3 in the Han Solo Trilogy) - the Caamas atrocity is elaborated on a little more (Vader is said to be responsible). I, Jedi, written around the same time as the HoT books, also references it, as did the roleplaying game book Caamas and the Core Worlds.

And much later, shortly after ROTS came out, there was the Coruscant Nights trilogy, in which we see the event being reported on Imperial News - with the "cover story" being that a bunch of Separatist bombs left over after a big battle, hit the planet.

Tying it to "Base Delta Zero" came later still, when the gamebook Starships of the Galaxy discussed Star Destroyers, orbital bombardments, and BDZ, and said "some planets, such as Caamas, have been devastated by such tactics".

So the Caamas Incident changed a bit over time.

pendell

2015-02-01, 10:30 AM

Did they ever rationalize Why Vader killed a planet which was a military nonentity? Given that the Empire wasn't even fully established yet, there's no reason to employ the Tarkin doctrine. Besides, the point of making an example of people is that the rest of the galaxy must see them as being deserving of punishment.

The whole point of deterrence is that you have a happy life if you play by the rules but are promised an excruciating death if you break them. Useless if they think you'll kill them whatever you do. In which case, your 'subjects' will fight like cornered rats. They have nothing to lose.

Caamas, as I understand it, would have been ideal Imperial subjects. Nonviolent, yes, but as long as they pay their taxes and are no trouble that's not an issue. If anything, a planet of pacifists who are industrious and law-abiding would be a considerable less headache to an Imperial Moff than, say, Corellia.

Chapter 3

Leia confronts Counselor Fey'la, who admits that it's all true. The Bothan people themselves only became aware of this decades after the event, and for quite some time they have been searching for the perpetrators themselves. In fact, it was the revelation that the Empire had used Bothans this way that brought them into the Rebel Alliance in the first place.

But the search was fruitless; the Bothans never did find the perpetrators so they've tried keeping silent as an alternative. Fey'la is actually a little bit disappointed in Leia's handling of the situation; from his perspective, Lak Jit was obviously going to sell this information to the highest bidder, which would have been the Bothans themselves. They'd have paid, and that would have been the end of it. Now the entire Bothan species will be put on trial.

Leia says that won't happen. Fey'la pretty much tells her not to be so idealistic, and in this case he's right.

Lak Jit, meanwhile , is running his mouth to whomever will pay. He speaks with Mazzic, one of the smugglers from the last book. After he's told his story, Mazzic captures him for the live bounty Karrde has on him. Mazzic can't find any way to profit from information decades old

Shada, Mazzic's female bodyguard disguised as his concubine, implies to us, the audience, that her own planet suffered a similar fate. Perhaps that will become important later...?

Meanwhile, Disra, Tierce, and Flim are attempting the opening moves of their caper. They bring in four Imperial Star Destroyer Captains --

Captain Trazzen, ISD Obliterator
Captain Nalgol of Kuat, ISD Tyrannic
Captain Argona, ISD Ironhand
Captain Dorja , ISD Relentless. We saw him in the last book.

Disra issues them orders for special missions -- the Relentless is to intercept an Imperial Courier at Mourshim, while the other three will be detached for a special mission to Bothawui.

The four officers are hesitant at first. The fleet doesn't have all that many ISDs available, so the removal of four from normal operations is a significant strategic liability.

Further, this is an incursion into New Republic space -- only Admiral Pelleon can authorize that. the Ironhand is the only one assigned to Disra's sector in the first place. He has no other authority over the other three at all.

At this point "Thrawn" enters. Flim puts on a command performance, utterly convincing . He concludes, asking if there is some issue with questions of command.

There is none. Captain Nalgol goes so far as to shake Thrawn's hand -- or so it would seem.

After they depart on their assigned missions, the conspirators discuss. Tierce notes that these captains were chosen because those captains not under Disra's direct authority were precisely the ones they would have to convince if this charade is to have a hope of working -- and if it hadn't, the four could have easily been disposed of.

tierce then goes to point out that he specifically requested Nalgol because , as a Kuaty noble, he would be wearing his poison injector ring. Flim starts at that -- that handshake had been no mere friendly gesture. But Nalgol had not been poisoning flim -- instead, he had been taking a sample for analysis and comparison with Thrawn's genetic records.

Good thing our villains doctored those records last night, eh? It would be a short book otherwise. Zahn continues his reputation for intelligent villains who will at least [i]try to be a step ahead.

But, because they're villains, their cooperation is not harmonious. Disra feels he has been put on the spot by Tierce without his knowledge. Tierce, meanwhile , is assuming more and more control as the military commander of the conspiracy, which Disra resents, asking if he is more than Tierce's supply officer. Tierce responds that once the Empire is rebuilt Disra can do what he wants ; Tierce's job will be done.

Tierce has also cut off Disra's pirates -- the Cavrilhu pirates -- from their clone pipeline. Tierce needs those clones fighting for the Empire now.

He finally demands access to the Emperor's and Thrawn's records. Disra agrees to provide him anything he asks for, but will not simply turn over those keys. He wants to preserve some secrets of his own. Tierce grudgingly acquiesces.

Flim, meanwhile, is amiable and argues with no one , but he's a political and military cipher, a nonentity. he may be able to Portray Thrawn for a limited time in front of an audience, but he's not Thrawn.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-01, 10:38 AM

pendell

2015-02-01, 11:49 AM

hamishspence

2015-02-01, 11:56 AM

Keep in mind that this was written before the PT. It's also worth noting that the Caamasi were supposed to be extremely influential.

There's also a theme in Zahn books that Palpatine launches pre-emptive strikes long before he's even suspected to be bad - what with the whole Outbound Flight Project thing.

russdm

2015-02-01, 04:02 PM

It's part of the difference between Lucas and Zahn.

Lucas: Villains are stupidly evil and practically cackle with glee while they do anything remotely evil. They rarely act in any way smart or intelligent with little focus on brains over silliness. Villains driven by usually random or semi-incomphresenible motivations. Heroes and Villains are big happy families without any difference of opinions and are either all good (heroes) or all evil (Villains)

Zahn: Villains are evil but going about it in a rather pragmatic fashion. Less Cackling and more capability happening here. Most Villains are smart and intelligent, using their cunning combined with judicious amounts of violence to accomplish goals. Villains driven by explained or very understandable goals. Heroes and Villains run the gamut of good/evil with most being more Neutral. There is a more "human" difference among the two groups showing something similar to how people are like in real life. More realistic characters, none of that shody super-moralizing Lucas is fond of.

It is really no wonder that Zahn's stories are more popular and likable than anything by Lucas.

pendell

2015-02-02, 11:31 AM

Part of it may be the audience they're writing for. Zahn is writing for adults and Lucas is aiming at the 10-13 year old male market.

We've seen in the main part of OOTS that Rich Burlew has occasionally despaired of his audience picking up on any kind of subtlety or allusion and so he's been having to make his moral points with greater obviousness. I suspect that is is not his entire[i] audience which is obtuse , but they are frequently the most vocal , and so seem to have influence out of all proportion of actual numbers. I suspect there are a lot of fans of the strip who don't bother to comment at all.

At any rate, both Rich and Lucas are writing for roughly the same young adult demographic, and because of this they both seem to have become more obvious as time goes on. Possibly because fan feedback convinced them subtlety wasn't doing it.

Chapters 6 additional

It appears I forgot to mention that in Chapter 6 Wedge and Lando came across an "Old Recluse" spreading rumors about Caamas who turned out to be sitting on an old imperial intelligence center. discovering this find allows them to early detect an ISD entering orbit of the planet. They take off just in time to see the ISD pursuing a corvette.

(NO doubt this is the [i]Relentless pursuing Pelleaon's courier, following Disra's orders which we saw in the last chapter).

There is nothing Lando and company can do to stop them. The ISD efficiently disables the corvette, tractors it into the docking bay, and leaves. They DO, however, manage to punch through the ISD's jamming to record the corvette's last message.

--is Colo.... zh Ver... ecial envey fro ... miral ... on, sent here ... ontact Gen...erl Iblis concern.... ego..... ce tre ... be ... Empire and New repub ... under attac ... traitorous ele... the Empire ... do not expect ... urvive. If the New Re... to hold ... su ...ions, ... Adm ... Pel.... at the aban.... mining cent... itline in ... nth to meet wi ... peating: This is... nel Me. .. Vermel....

The fragmentary message and the circumstances puzzle the heroes. An ISD is too valuable for chase missions; there are too few of them these days. A theft and defection, perhaps? Then why use a corvette? Why not a smaller, faster ship, unless the entire crew is defecting together?

Flash over to Muunilinst (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Muunilinst), the financial capital of the Empire in Exile.

Pelleon is attempting to persuade the commander of one of the Golan Defense platforms protecting the planet to accede to his plan. They discuss many things, including Pelleon's investigation of Disra's activities. General Ramic appears unbothered by any of it save the use of clones -- Imperial troops -- as cannon fodder for pirates. For that he will gladly flay those responsible, even a Moff.

Tierce , Disra and Flim discuss Dorja's successful mission to capture Pelleon's courier.

Colonel Vermel, meanwhile, will be imprisoned until the rule of the Empire is firmly in the hands of the triumvirate. He's a good and loyal man , after all; it would be a shame to waste him.

The corvette did get a fragmentary message off, but they dismiss this as unimportant. It's unlikely anyone had the appropriate equipment to receive it, and still less likely anyone would care if they did .

Ah, lads, but this is the Star Wars universe. As in OOTS, the laws of probability must give way to the laws of drama.

Lando and Wedge bring the fragmentary transmission to General Iblis himself, the famous senator and general who allied with Mon Mothma in the Thrawn trilogy. Iblis comes to the conclusions already discussed, and begins analyzing the transmission. "I've been needing a hobby anyway", he comments.

Chapter 7

The Caamas revelations are now being discussed in the senate. There are angry voices demanding "Justice for Caamas". President Gavrisom, who has succeeded Mon Mothman, tries to calm the crowd, reminding them that it was a small group of Bothans responsible, not the entire species, and Republic justice is even now working to identify the perpetrators for arrest and prosecution.

That isn't good enough for the outraged delegates of the Senate. Some of them, such as the Ishori, have legal codes that do indeed allow the entire group to be collectively punished for the acts of a few. The reminder that the Republic doesn't operate on that legal framework is not a satisfactory answer, not to a crowd of thousands of angry sentients, senators or no.

Fey'la can say nothing beyond what he's already said: Yes, Bothans were responsible, no we haven't identified them. Yes, we'er working on it.

That's not good enough.

The meeting breaks up. Leia receives a message from Han,a bright moment in her day, letting him know he's back. But before they can reunite, Leia is pulled aside for a "private word" by Senator Dx'ono, who has brought some of the surviving Caamasi to speak with her.

They are as noble as one would expect, given ther reputation.

We have no desire to make trouble for anyone. We do not wish vengeance, and it is far too late for justice ... what purpose would so-called justice serve? Our world is destroyed and we are few and scattered. Would punishing the Bothans miraculously make all right again?

The problem , I suspect, is that this isn't really about Caamasi. It's about an entire galaxy which has been irritated and angry with the Bothans for who knows how many generations; this is simply the pretext which allows them to act out their long-cherished desire to punish them.

An impulse not all that different from that which saw the Jedi exterminated.

Han taps into the conversation, and Karrde joins him. karrde fills Han in.

Karrde notifies Han taht he's secured Lak Jit, but it's too late -- Jit has already run his mouth and the damage is done. Han asks him about the pirate gang he and Luke encountered which contained clone crew. What were they doing there and how did they get them? A trade with the Empire? Or has a pirate group managed to acquire some cloning cylinders of their own?

Karrde agrees to look in it at his usual rates. Ka-CHING! Karrde's heart may be in essentially the right place, but he's got a business to run.

Luke, meanwhile, is off hunting the Cavrilhu pirates on his won, having located a bolt-hole of theirs from New Republic Intelligence. It's an asteroid cluster in the Kauron system, and may be related to the clone attack.

They also discuss Luke. The fact that they're worried about him falling to the dark side is an undertone in their conversation.

Leia and Han meet , finally, and discuss events. Leia can tell that Caamas has caused a political crisis, one the New Republic might not survive. It's a flashpoint for too many grudges and stresses.

Flash to Captain Nalgol aboard the Tyrannic whom as you may remember was detached for a special mission by the triumvirate in Thrawn's name with two other ISDs.

The three vessels are in the Bothawui system -- the Bothan home world -- under cloak, tethered to a comet, keeping an eye on things via scouts. I suspect a large battle is planned to occur here, and after the Republic forces have nearly annihilated each other, the ISDs will decloak and finish the job, possibly BDZing Bothawui for good measure.

Nalgol considers the events of the past ten years. During it, I think Zahn takes a swipe at the X-wing series, making a comment about "incompetent fools like Admiral Daala", bleeding the Empire of resources with nothing to show for it.

What was Thrawn doing back, linked with Moff Disra of all people? Nalgol's suspicions are raised, genetic evidence notwithstanding.

Chapter 8

Luke is undercover as "Mensio" , attempting to infiltrate the Cavrilhu pirates as a delivery man. Yeah, the most recognizable visage in the EU -- undercover? Not likely.

Ah, but it turns out Luke has at least made an effort -- he's added something epicanthic folds to his eyes, a pair of scars, a beard, and darkened both his hair and skin. He took this route by putting the normal runner in a Jedi healing trance and took his place. He's flying a Y60 Thalassian cargo hauler. His delivery; Norsam ift mines, emergency survival pods , power armor, hyperdrive boosters ,and an SB-20 security breach droid.

I'm only mentioning this because I suspect Chekhov's tools are going to be important later.

The pirates let him past the first line. He lands at their base and is met by blasters. They say they just talked to Wesselman.

Funny they don't mention what they talked about. Luke decides they are bluffing , trying to get him to spill things. So he maintains cover and calls their bluff, claiming Wesselman couldn't have talked to them because he was picking up Tibanna gas. "So, did I pass?"

The smugglers relax. Holstering their weapons, they make to unload Luke's ship. Luke head to the snack bar for a plate of ribs. He looks to make a break , but spots no less than three spycams. Not much chance of that then. Still munching his food, returns to his ship.

He observes the pirate's pattern and when he spots a ten second window, sneaks into the SB-20 droid, which is actually a mockup he will hide in. He then eases the plate of ribs into the living section of the ship using the force .This will cause the smugglers to believe he has returned to his ship, when in fact he is in the cargo they are offloading.

It works all very well right up to the point the pirates scan the cargo and detect a human life sign. The jig is up; Luke calls Artoo for help but his transmissions are already jammed.

The Cavrilhu pirates are professionals, it seems. But I wager they haven't dealt with Jedi before...

So he leaves the box to be confronted with blasters. He attempts to bluff and demands to see the captain, claiming he'd been testing their security.

Controls' not impressed. He gives Luke five seconds to give something solid or it's rigorous interrogation for him.

Luke asks about hiring clones. Control responds: "Tsk. Wrong answer. Take him. "

Luke triggers the room light switch with the force and ignites his lightsaber. Now everyone knows who he is. So much for that. You'd think he'd know better than to try infiltration any more by now -- he doesn't have Obi-wan's stealth abilities and he's a terrible liar.

Control and luke continue to dialog over the intercom. Luke asks about the clones; he'd rather know than hunt down both control and the captain. Control sneers back, thanking Luke for revealing both his identity and what he came here to learn, all without a single moment of serious interrogation.

Man , Luke is a terrible spy.

He continues through the base, and wanders into a room where the pirates have artifical gravity control. they manipulate it to slam Luke first against the ceiling, then the floor, then back again, then at last leave him floating in the center of the room, hemmed in by bars. His lightsaber has fallen from his hand and is now firmly wedged , immovable by Force telekinesis and the blade held in such a way that , when active, it can cut nothing.

Blast doors seal the room.

Control remarks they set up this little Jedi trap about five years ago when Luke's yavin academy was sending out all manner of new would-be Jedi, cocky and full of themselves. It seems to have worked fairly well.

He activates it anyway, sending the blade into the wall..

They thought of this one too. The blade cuts nothing. There is no critical equipment there which can be damaged to break the trap.

Control seems almost smug now.

Luke relaxes. So now what?

Control has obviously read the Evil Overlord list. Now, Luke dies. End of story. The pirates assume Luke has already read their minds and has enough to send them all to prison, and no one's paying a bounty for live Jedi, so he will not leave this base alive.

The pirates begin evacuating the air from that section. Even a Jedi can't live without breathing, not for long.

Luke hurriedly scans his options. No lightsaber. He does have his comlink, a glow rod, and two blaster powerpacks [when he boarded, he carried a blaster as part of his disguise . They took his gun but not the spare clips] .

Luke remembers his training from the war that blaster powerpacks can be made to explode. he uses them to damage the bars around his lightsaber, freeing it just enough tthat he can force grip it and use it to cut his way , first to air, then to freedom.

Now THAT was a cunning trap, and luke got out of it using only those resources to hand. Zahn writing at its finest!

He attempts to contact Artoo on his comlink and is met with static. Then there is an explosion, and his comlink comes through laoud and lear.

"Are you in trouble again, Skywalker? "

It's Mara Jade.

Luke answers. "Of course I am. Have you ever known me when I wasn't? "

TO BE CONTINUED...

...

Wow, just wow. Now that's the kind of zahn action sequence I would pay money to see. The careful laying out of the pieces of the puzzle, the ingenious death trap, the intelligent villains who nonehtless forget one crucial fact, the dramatic escape ... IMO this is just as good as the TT. I'm loving this.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thrawn183

2015-02-02, 03:16 PM

Nalgol considers the events of the past ten years. During it, I think Zahn takes a swipe at the X-wing series, making a comment about "incompetent fools like Admiral Daala", bleeding the Empire of resources with nothing to show for it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Wouldn't this be pointed at the books centered around Luke founding his Jedi Academy? I think most of the serious adversaries in the X-Wing series were portrayed as being quite competent.

LadyEowyn

2015-02-02, 03:59 PM

GAThraawn

2015-02-02, 04:26 PM

Yes, Daala is from the Jedi Academy Trilogy and Darksaber. It's a swipe at Kevin J. Anderson, who deserves it - his books are mediocre across the board, but one of his worst flaws (which continues into the Young Jedi Knights books) is writing deeply incompetent villains. And it's even more frustrating because he seems to be trying to pass Daala off as someone who is competent, when in fact she's utterly useless.

Made even worse by the even later EU material that support the notion that Daala is competent. I believe she ends up the leader of the combined Alliance/Empire Federation decades down the line? One of the many reasons that this series marks about the latest date in universe that I'm interested in reading about. If Daala can end up Chief of State, why not Thrawn :smallconfused:.

russdm

2015-02-02, 05:26 PM

If Daala can end up Chief of State, why not Thrawn :smallconfused:.

Because the universe would explode if he did? I don't know if the Star Wars galaxy could survive if Thrawn took over as it would render nearly everything weird. Thrawn working with Wedge, Lando, Ackbar, and Luke would see the universe enter a golden age of peace or something that would last nearly forever.

Seriously, thanks to Thrawn the empire run by Admiral P (Formerly Captain P) is pretty nice and worth joining. Imagine that applying with Thrawn in charge. Nearly all of rebel friends would defect...

GAThraawn

2015-02-02, 09:30 PM

Because the universe would explode if he did? I don't know if the Star Wars galaxy could survive if Thrawn took over as it would render nearly everything weird. Thrawn working with Wedge, Lando, Ackbar, and Luke would see the universe enter a golden age of peace or something that would last nearly forever.

Seriously, thanks to Thrawn the empire run by Admiral P (Formerly Captain P) is pretty nice and worth joining. Imagine that applying with Thrawn in charge. Nearly all of rebel friends would defect...

I know :smallfrown: I want to read that AU. Maybe the two-book series the Vong invasion would take up in that timeline.

hamishspence

2015-02-03, 03:10 AM

HoT takes the approach that Thrawn himself thought that, even if he had taken over the Empire and the Rebel territory, he would still have a very high chance of losing to the Vong.

GAThraawn

2015-02-03, 04:41 AM

HoT takes the approach that Thrawn himself thought that, even if he had taken over the Empire and the Rebel territory, he would still have a very high chance of losing to the Vong.

I dunno, I have only read the first part of the NJO, but it seems like a bunch of the Vong's early victories came on the backs of exploiting political turmoil and divisions. I can see the definite military advantages of a strong unified Empire against such a threat. But I suppose we're a little off topic from the books at hand.

Cikomyr

2015-02-03, 08:47 AM

"Wouldn't have stood for it?" What are they going to do about it? They wouldn't be using military force to overthrow the Republic. As for any political actions , Palpatine had a supermajority in the Senate to vote his way on everything. The most they could do is play Gandhi or MLK Jr. to Palpatine's dictator.

Here's the thing about soft power -- it only works if the dictator or his followers are willing to let it work. As it is, Palpatine is personally immune to such appeals, and even the earliest novelization of New Hope portrayed Palps as having overwhelming support throughout the Empire, so popular pressure and anger wouldn't suffice to make him change his policies.

So if a planet full of pacifists wants to carp and complain about being part of a military dictatorship, so what? Let 'em say what they like. Let 'em broadcast their message day and night. If Imperial HNE and their propaganda arm can't keep most of the galaxy in line despite the occasional dissident or naysayer, they don't deserve their paychecks.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It should be noted that the Caamas arent your.pacifist beatnicks who sit in drum circles and talk about Peace and Love.

They are a politically-savvy force. In fact, i sort of see them as some sort of TNG Starfleet/Federation expy: bunch of people so bad at warfare, yet so good at diplomacy and politicking that they managed to effectively wrap themselves in a.shroud of morality that minimize their weakness yet leverage their strenghts. Adopting higher moral standards on the galactic scale so people admire you and listen to your voices.

Ya know, like 1970s Canada

Caamasi were probably the.main political opponent to Palpatine's insidious corrupting of the Senate. Palpatine had to acquire tons of soft power in the Republic's senate before gaining Supreme Power, and all that was achieved through backdoor deals. The sort of deals that the Caamasis probably contested and played against.

pendell

2015-02-03, 09:18 AM

I don't really consider it off-topic; we've got these daily missives to keep us on track anyway ... for as long as I can do them . Can't promise they'll happen every single day :smallamused:.

Chapter 9

Yes, it's Mara Jade aboard the Starry Ice . Two chapters ago Han had mentioned Luke's expedition to Talon Karrde, and he sent Mara to check up on him. Karrde is an information broker who has a pretty good idea of the strengths and weaknesses of allies and enemies. He deduced Luke would need backup and in this he was correct.

Things are getting pretty serious.

Once they have realized the Jedi trap failed, the Cavrilhu pirates have pushed the self-destruct button on the base and evacuated. The place is coming down around their ears.

Furthermore, the pirates attempted to board Luke's ship, which evidently his X-wing is concealed aboard. At the first hint of trouble Artoo fired up the Xwing and vaped the atmosphere generators, voiding the hangar bay to space. The good news is that discouraged the pirates from approaching the X-wing. The bad news is that the hangar bay is now in hard vacuum.

Luke's ship will take 15 minutes to pressurize, so there's no way to get aboard it. Mara and company will have to pick him up. There are still mines and static defenses, which they'll have to blast their way past.

Mara makes a rather snarky suggestion that this would be Luke's time to sweep away all the defenses with a wave of his hand. She feels his wince at that remark -- it stings.

The Starry Ice begins making it through the wreckage while Luke hunts for a pressure suit and comes up empty. Finally, there's nothing for it -- Luke will have to cold-shirt his way to the Starry Ice. He will place himself in a Jedi hibernation trance just beforehand, but it will still be risky.

Luke takes the plunge. Mara, who has been keeping up her force telekinesis since Wayland, is able to nudge and guide him into the Starry Ice airlock. He smacks right in to her, knocking her on the floor. She recites the phrase which will wake him up from hibernation -- "Welcome aboard".

She's a bit surprised to see him like this in disguise. Why not a Force Illusion?

Luke states he's trying to cut back on overusing the force. That helps Mara relax a bit. She was worried about him.

...

Force Illusions? Sweeping away static defense with a wave of the hand? Tearing ships apart in hyperspace with force telekinesis? Just what has been happening in the EU that I'm blissfully ignorant of?

On second thought, never mind.

....

They have recovered the X_wing and blast their way out past the remaining defenses. While doing so, they detect an unusual vessel like a modified tie fighter observing the action, but it lights out a great speed before they can investigate more closely.

Luke thanks them- - they'll settle on a rescue fee later. Jade's first mate observes she and Luke make a good team, so she spaces him.

Just kidding. She DOESN'T appreciate the observation though. "Bite your tongue, Faughn. Bite your tongue."

Chapter 10

An imperial intelligence team is setting off a riot -- one person to speak and whip up the crowd, a second operative in the crowd to set a spark to the fuel the first is pilling up. First by throwing fruit, then by throwing stones, then by throwing a grenade. His violent action sparks other action -- violence begets violence, as his training taught him -- and soon the city is aflame. This is one of many riots intended to destabilize the New Republic.

Privately , Navett [for that is the Imperial's name] wonders if this will actually do any good, but if he can't save the Empire he is content to bury it under the ashes of the New Republic.

...

that kind of hate isn't going to be good for the galaxy in the long run.

Cut to Leia, President Gavrisom, and Fey'la who are attempting to broker a compromise and calm things back down. The newest petition demands that the Bothans seek out a new planet for the Caamasi and Caamasi-form it , replacing their old homeworld with a new one.

Fey'la balks; he states that such an action is completely beyond the Bothan's power. When Gavrisom notes that the public records show the Bothans are more than wealthy enough to pay this bill, Fey'la replies that the records are nothing but a carefully constructed sham; in fact, the Bothan companies are a paper shell, nearly empty. They had intended a temporary deception to get back on their feet after recent bad decisions, but now their bluff is called, like a person at a poker table who's pushed all his chips in with not even a pair in his hand.

Gee, the Bothans lying and cheating and deceiving. Who'd a thunk it? There's a reason most of the galaxy has been aching for an excuse to kill them all.

Gavrisom and Leia consider this; then Gavrisom asks Leia to head to Bothawui to investigate in person, to verify the claim. Meanwhile Gavrisom will do his best to stall things on the senate floor.

Wait a minute, isn't Bothawui where those three star destroyers went? The pieces seem to be coming together...

Fey'la bitingly observes it's too bad the Noghri didnt' kill Lak Jit when he had the chance. Isn't it better that one man die than the galaxy be plunged into civil war?

Ah, "What a pity Bilbo did not stab the vile creature when he had the chance." Where have I heard that before?

Gavrisom rebukes him. While I disagree with his reasoning -- the entire point of war is to sacrifice the few to save the many -- I nonetheless think he is right in this instance. A Republic built on lies, A republic in which governments murder those whose only crime is telling the truth, is not a republic worth living in or dying for. There's been enough killing, anyway. If they really are going to make something better than the Empire, they have to start by finding ways to solve their problems besides killing inconvenient people.

Flash over to our villains who are discussing their scheme. Flim's role has been expanded from simply encouraging Imperial Morale to putting on a command performance for the Republic in this Caamas thing.

Flim is concerned that this is taking too long. From Tierce's viewpoint as a soldier, this is not true; patience is a military virtue. But from Flim's perspective as a con man, patience is NOT a virtue. A mark needs to be baited, hooked, and reeled in with all possible speed. The more time you give him to think, the more likely he is to get out of your trap.

They discuss ways the scheme can go wrong, and the most likely way is for the Republic to find the individual Bothans responsible and bring them to justice. Disra believes the only copy of any records is on Bastion, and he has taken care of that. Tierce warns there may be copies at Yaga Minor, where an Ubiqtorate [secret police?] base is. He wants to go there and download the records using the Emperor's personal cipher. So he's again making his play for that. Disra goes along with it this time ... not that he has much choice.

They are interrupted as Zothip of the Cavrilhu pirates calls Disra's personal line, enraging Disra. Disra signals his colleagues to hide while he fields the call.

Zothip is angry first at the cutoff of clones, and secondly at Luke Skywalker dropping in on one of his bases, killing two of his personnel and losing the base as well. He flat out accuses Disra of betraying him.

This is unreasonable paranoia. If a sector governor, even of the weakened Empire in Exile, wants you dead, he has better ways to accomplish it than siccing his worst enemy on the trail, which might lead Luke back to them.

Disra succeeds in reassuring him, reminding him of the X-wing and YT-1300 that stopped their raid back in Chapter 1. of course that was Luke, and of course he was following the trail back. There's no reason for Imperial involvement and that is highly unlikely in any case.

Now that that's settled, Disra offers Zothip a job; in exchange for double the normal rates for a raid, he wants Pelleon's Star destroyer attacked by ships under Corellian insignia when the Chimaera travels to Pestilin for his parley with the Republic [though that last bit isn't mentioned to Zothip]. Having first captured the genuine courier , Disra is now arranging for Pelleon to receive a hostile reception at his parley, in the hopes of convincing him that he has no choice but to fight to the bitter end.

Zothip laughs. He doesn't have anywhere near the resources to take a star destroyer. Disra reassures him; he doesn't need to destroy the Chimaera, just ensure it receives fire. No serious damage is expected.

That IS within the power of the pirates. Zothip agrees. In for a penny, in for a pound, after all.

----

I can't really take these villains seriously. I mean, sure they're antagonists but they don't have the power of Vader or the genius of Thrawn. They're -- con men, the last sweepings that the Empire has left. If the Empire's cupboard is this bare it should surrender.

Nonetheless, I think the protaganists are still adequately challenged. Because the main enemy in this story isn't really the Empire; the main enemy is entropy, inertia, mistrust. Their war is not so much at this point to tear the Empire down as it is to establish the republic -- to build a foundation for a stable government based on a just and lasting peace, on truth, rather than a thousand squabbling factions secretly murdering each other. The Old Republic broke down because of that entropy, and it has an excellent chance of strangling the New Republic in its crib. Facing down this enemy is a worthy challenge for our heroes -- the villains in this story are merely a sideshow whose purpose seemingly is merely to advance the plot.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-03, 10:10 AM

Luke thanks them- - they'll settle on a rescue fee later. Jade's first mate observes she and Luke make a good team, so she spaces him.

Just kidding. She DOESN'T appreciate the observation though. "Bite your tongue, Faughn. Bite your tongue."

.

Luke and Mara sitting in a tree
K I S S I N G

Thrawn183

2015-02-03, 11:18 AM

I can't really take these villains seriously. I mean, sure they're antagonists but they don't have the power of Vader or the genius of Thrawn. They're -- con men, the last sweepings that the Empire has left. If the Empire's cupboard is this bare it should surrender.

Nonetheless, I think the protaganists are still adequately challenged. Because the main enemy in this story isn't really the Empire; the main enemy is entropy, inertia, mistrust. Their war is not so much at this point to tear the Empire down as it is to establish the republic -- to build a foundation for a stable government based on a just and lasting peace, on truth, rather than a thousand squabbling factions secretly murdering each other. The Old Republic broke down because of that entropy, and it has an excellent chance of strangling the New Republic in its crib. Facing down this enemy is a worthy challenge for our heroes -- the villains in this story are merely a sideshow whose purpose seemingly is merely to advance the plot.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think this, combined with the fatalism we see towards the future of the empire from basically everyone else, just goes to show how weak the New Republic actually is. So I wouldn't say they exist to advance the plot so much as they are weak to be a counterpoint to the weakness of the New Republic.

LadyEowyn

2015-02-03, 02:46 PM

They are a politically-savvy force. In fact, i sort of see them as some sort of TNG Starfleet/Federation expy: bunch of people so bad at warfare, yet so good at diplomacy and politicking that they managed to effectively wrap themselves in a.shroud of morality that minimize their weakness yet leverage their strenghts. Adopting higher moral standards on the galactic scale so people admire you and listen to your voices.

Ya know, like 1970s Canada.

As a Canadian: awww, thanks! That's a huge compliment. I'd like for us to get back to that kind of policy, but the current government is heading in the opposite direction.

Nonetheless, I think the protaganists are still adequately challenged. Because the main enemy in this story isn't really the Empire; the main enemy is entropy, inertia, mistrust. Their war is not so much at this point to tear the Empire down as it is to establish the republic -- to build a foundation for a stable government based on a just and lasting peace, on truth, rather than a thousand squabbling factions secretly murdering each other. The Old Republic broke down because of that entropy, and it has an excellent chance of strangling the New Republic in its crib. Facing down this enemy is a worthy challenge for our heroes -- the villains in this story are merely a sideshow whose purpose seemingly is merely to advance the plot.

I agree with this this. Disra is a pretty pathetic antagonist, but he's not what the New Republic is fighting. The Triumvirate are more antagonists for Pellaeon than they are for the New Republic.

GAThraawn

2015-02-03, 06:36 PM

Force Illusions? Sweeping away static defense with a wave of the hand? Tearing ships apart in hyperspace with force telekinesis? Just what has been happening in the EU that I'm blissfully ignorant of?

On second thought, never mind.

Going to tell you anyway.

Most of the absurd damage in the EU was perpetuated by the aforementioned Kevin J Anderson and his Jedi Academy books, and follow-up Darksaber. The ridiculous weapon the Sun Crusher, a fighter-sized ship whose armour can withstand a sun going nova (and whose on-board weapon causes exactly that to happen), is disposed of by being flown into the Gas Giant Yavin, only to be telekineticly retrieved by Kyp Durron. Standing on the surface of Yavin 4.

Luke gets shot down in a planet's upper atmosphere and telekineticly floats to the surface.

oh, and: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_on_Yavin_4

Pellaeon (under Daala's command...for some reason...) assaults the academy on Yavin 4 with seventeen Imperial-class Star Destroyers. The assembled Jedi Force-push the fleet so far from Yavin 4 that when Daala arrives in her Super Star Destroyer, she cannot locate Pellaeon or his fleet.

Luke wasn't even present for that.

So, yeah, Zahn is orchestrating some pretty serious damage control here. If the characters joke that he could solve all of the novel's problems in five minutes, it's because according to Kevin J Anderson, he really can.

hamishspence

2015-02-03, 06:47 PM

Black Fleet Crisis trilogy was another notable example of giving Luke specifically, extremely powerful Force abilities. An event from it is specifically mentioned in Vision of the Future, for this reason - Zahn disliked that scene and wants to stress that Luke really shouldn't be using the Force that spectacularly.

Force Illusions of various kinds are used by Luke in Dark Empire, The Crystal Star, and the aforesaid Black Fleet Crisis books (in those, he learns from other force users how to create illusions that will even fool sensors).

pendell

2015-02-04, 09:12 AM

Pellaeon (under Daala's command...for some reason...) assaults the academy on Yavin 4 with seventeen Imperial-class Star Destroyers. The assembled Jedi Force-push the fleet so far from Yavin 4 that when Daala arrives in her Super Star Destroyer, she cannot locate Pellaeon or his fleet.

Luke wasn't even present for that.

....
.........

That's absurd.

I'll give telekinetically picking up a fighter -- we saw from Ep. V that Yoda could affect an X-wing in orbit and could lift the vehicle out of a swamp so it's at least plausible. But force-pushing seventeen star destroyers?

Lucas obviously disagreed with that as well, or the battle of Geonosis would have had a very different ending. Those hundreds of Jedi knights in the theater could have simply levitated Amidala and Anakin out of the theater, then Force Waved everything in it.

Good grief.

Chapter 11

The Wild Karrde emerges from hyperspace right next to a Star Destroyer, badly frightening the new bridge crewer ... but not so badly she loses her wits. She gives sensor readings on demand, realizing there are only 3 operational turbolasers on the ISD. A hail comes in to confirm; this is the Errant Venture, Booster Terrik commanding, and it is a smuggler haven. Time and age have not been kind to the old lady; without a minimum crew or spare parts, the ship has been gradually falling apart, and more and more components have been sold off just to pay the operating cost. The Errant Venture may still be in shape to fly, but she's not a fighting ship any more.
Still useful for scaring the wits out of new crew members as a prank, though :smallamused:.

Some say you require knowledge of the rest of the EU; I disagree. I hadn't read any of those books when I first read this one, and I already knew enough from context in this story to follow the role and personalities. It's an ISD that has somehow been commandeered and turned into a mobile smuggler's hideout. Therein hangs a tale, but one that isn't told here, sadly. A bit of advertisement for some of the EU Zahn liked perhaps.

I wouldn't mind reading that story. Which one is it?

There are some other guest stars from the rest of the EU as well -- Corran Horn, with his wife Mirax and six-year-old son Valin. At first, Corran is reluctant to deal with Karrde, but Karrde hands over a charming gift --an Ettian tonal cord for Valin's chordokeylo, a musical instrument.

Not only is it a gift, it's also a subtle demonstration of Karrde's power -- he knew that Corran Horn would be here, he knew his family, he knows intimate details about their family lives, and he knows current information because Valin just got that instrument a very short time ago.

Karrde knows everything.

And all of this communicated through the simple, charming presentation of a gift for a child.

Thus confronted with an opponent beyond his skill, Corran prepares to spill the beans -- but first ask what it will cost. Karrde replies "what it is worth, of course", suggesting that if Corran won't negotiate they can take it up with Senator Organa-Solo. Since Leia evidently gave away the store back in the TT when dealing with Karrde , Corran takes the plunge now and spills the beans -- he's here for a couple reasons.

1) To follow up on Luke's pirate hunt -- where are the Cavrilhu pirates? Regrettably, the latest information put them at the base Luke just raided, the base which is now so much wreckage, so not much help there.

2) To follow up on the apparent presence of Imperial clones among the pirate forces. Where did they get them? Leftovers from the Thrawn era, or does someone have a cloning cylinder?

3) To track down the group which is apparently fomenting riots on Republic worlds over the Caamas massacre; a group calling itself Vengeance. Who are these guys, and are they really a political group or are they a front for Imperial Intelligence?

While they are discussing this , Mara arrives on the Starry Ice -- and also another one of those modified TIE-like craft. It arrives and sends a brief message to the Venture. It pauses, sends again, then once more lights out faster than anyone can follow.

The message contains the word "Mitth'raw'nuruodo". Mara identifies this as Thrawn's full name. Like many immigrants in history, He chose a shortened form of it for use by humans when he joined the Imperial Navy.

Mara also lets drop all of the backstory she knows about Thrawn -- he aws in the unknown regions. He impressed an Imperial officer with his tactical ability and joined the Imperial Navy. He was in ever since.

Later events in the book or in Outbound Flight may modify this story somewhat.

At any rate ... apparently the ship is associated with Thrawn. The "Hand of Thrawn" mentioned in the data cards recovered from Wayland , perhaps? Yes, we let that slip now as well.

At any rate, the ship left them a hyperspace vector, so Mara will follow it on the Starry Ice.

Karrde quietly asks Corran if he sensed anything. Corran is a bit perturbed by that -- his abilities are not public knowledge. Once again, in that oh-so-gracious way, Karrde makes it plain that his silence will come at the price of a future favor. Corran agrees, not that he has much choice.

Karrde is a devious yet very cultured smuggler. I find myself rereading his parts out of sheer admiration.

At any rate, Corran didn't sense any evil or hostile or clones from the craft, just an alien mind.

Chapter 12
Mazzic and his bodyguard Shada are going to a smuggler rendezvous to make an exchange. However, during the meet Shada, who is pulling security, is confronted by Karoly, a long-time colleague from her real employer.

It seems that Shada is a member of a shadow group working for the Mystral, servents of the planet Emberlene, yet another planet destroyed during the clone wars but one people cared nothing about, unlike Caamas. There's a bit of resentment there. Her people have been selling their warrior expertise as bodyguards and mercenaries in order to buy the supplies to stay alive.

At any rate, Karoly informs her that her work with Mazzic is complete; he isn't going to wield the kind of galaxy-wide influence they expected him to when Shada was sent to his organization, so she's being pulled out. Now she must watch as Mazzic's underworld contact murders him in this deal.

Shada's professionalism and sense of honor instantly war with her obligation to obey orders, and honor wins out almost immediately. With Karoly's connivance -- she detests those orders as much as Shada does -- Shada "disarms" Karoly, stops the sniper, and saves Mazzic's life, becoming a Mystral outlaw with a price on her head. Karoly warns her she will be pursued. She's used to it by now.

Luke, meanwhile is completely out of ideas, and decides to seek guidance through a force vision. This gives Zahn the opportunity to insert some foreshadowing both for this and later books.

Luke sees a number of rapid images:
--Wedge and Rogue Squadron in battle.
-- Students leaving the Yavin Academy deserted.
-- Himself standing on a balcony against the wall of a darkened canyon, looking down at a sea of thousands of tiny stars.
-- Han and Leia facing a huge mob while a rooftop sniper lines up a blaster rifle.
-- Mara Jade, apparently comatose, floating in water surrounded by craggy rock.

He wakes up from his vision, and with Artoo's help tries to find the place in the galactic catalog that matched up with his vision of the dark canyon . This turns out to be the Canyonade on Cejansij. So it's time to fire up the X-wing and go there.

TO BE CONTINUED ...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-04, 10:25 AM

hamishspence

2015-02-04, 10:30 AM

Some say you require knowledge of the rest of the EU; I disagree. I hadn't read any of those books when I first read this one, and I already knew enough from context in this story to follow the role and personalities. It's an ISD that has somehow been commandeered and turned into a mobile smuggler's hideout. Therein hangs a tale, but one that isn't told here, sadly. A bit of advertisement for some of the EU Zahn liked perhaps.

I wouldn't mind reading that story. Which one is it?

It's a Michael Stackpole X-wing novel - book 4: The Bacta War.

russdm

2015-02-04, 05:10 PM

It seems that Shada is a member of a shadow group working for the Mystral, servents of the planet Emberlene, yet another planet destroyed during the clone wars but one people cared nothing about, unlike Caamas. There's a bit of resentment there. Her people have been selling their warrior expertise as bodyguards and mercenaries in order to buy the supplies to stay alive.

Such an interesting set up, but one that curiously never goes anywhere beyond this duology. I don't think the Mystral are actually mentioned again outside this two books except in like some roleplaying game documents.

This isn't a spoiler because you can look up the information on Wookiepedia and confirm it. Plus it simply happens, like nobody else cared about it. Not all of the stuff that Zahn put in his previous trilogy shows up anywhere else in the EU except in another of his books.

Also, another Clone Wars reference that had to be retconned later. Da**, Lucas. I liked Zahn's idea of the Clone Wars slightly better than what Lucas did, but I simply loved Jango Fett. Especially because Obiwan's little journey made total sense while Anakin's suffered from bad writing disease or more accurately, "It's George Lucas; The Force is not with him".

hamishspence

2015-02-04, 05:19 PM

Such an interesting set up, but one that curiously never goes anywhere beyond this duology. I don't think the Mystral are actually mentioned again outside this two books except in like some roleplaying game documents.

There were a few helping Mara & Lando in Champions of the Force (book 3 in the Jedi Academy trilogy) and Shada at least gets a few minor appearances in the NJO series - but in general they don't play much of a role.

There's one in a comic short story, as well:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deal_with_a_Demon

Spamotron

2015-02-04, 10:22 PM

The second battle of Yavin 4 does have a couple of big qualifiers that keep it from being as stupid as some people claim. For one the ruins of Yavin were built by Exar Kun using lost Sith techniques that turned the moon into one massive Force Amplifier (The Sith having developed artifacts and architecture that boosted the force and Yavin 4 being a Sith Big Bad's home base were not established by Anderson but by the Knights of the Old Republic comic book series years before). So on just about any other planet in the galaxy the stunt wouldn't have worked. Second the Jedi who acted as the focus of the effort and directed the attack died from channeling greater Force energies than his nervous system could handle.

Douglas

2015-02-04, 10:26 PM

It's a Michael Stackpole X-wing novel - book 4: The Bacta War.
Otherwise known as Quality beats Quantity: The Novel. :smalltongue:

That's a strong theme in all the X-wing books, with the central conceit being that the main protagonists are the hand-picked best fighter pilots/commandos the Republic has, but The Bacta War takes it to an especially great height. Acquiring a certain ISD is but one of the many moments of awesomeness where skill and cleverness win out over superior force.

Gadora

2015-02-05, 12:41 AM

Such an interesting set up, but one that curiously never goes anywhere beyond this duology. I don't think the Mystral are actually mentioned again outside this two books except in like some roleplaying game documents.

This isn't a spoiler because you can look up the information on Wookiepedia and confirm it. Plus it simply happens, like nobody else cared about it. Not all of the stuff that Zahn put in his previous trilogy shows up anywhere else in the EU except in another of his books.

Also, another Clone Wars reference that had to be retconned later. Da**, Lucas. I liked Zahn's idea of the Clone Wars slightly better than what Lucas did, but I simply loved Jango Fett. Especially because Obiwan's little journey made total sense while Anakin's suffered from bad writing disease or more accurately, "It's George Lucas; The Force is not with him".

Actually, this is more being done with Emberlene. The two Mystral here were introduced in a 1995 short story (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hammertong:_The_Tale_of_the_%22Tonnika_Sisters%22) by Zahn.

hamishspence

2015-02-05, 03:14 AM

(The Sith having developed artifacts and architecture that boosted the force and Yavin 4 being a Sith Big Bad's home base were not established by Anderson but by the Knights of the Old Republic comic book series years before).

Which Anderson wrote, to some extent:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tales_of_the_Jedi:_Dark_Lords_of_the_Sith_(TPB)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tales_of_the_Jedi:_The_Sith_War_(TPB)

Cikomyr

2015-02-05, 07:07 AM

Actually, this is more being done with Emberlene. The two Mystral here were introduced in a 1995 short story (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hammertong:_The_Tale_of_the_%22Tonnika_Sisters%22) by Zahn.

I believe Shakka do reference these events as some sort of self-identification purpose with Solo later, no?

Gadora

2015-02-05, 08:36 AM

I believe Shakka do reference these events as some sort of self-identification purpose with Solo later, no?

It's been too long since I've read this duology to remember that. Also, that really should be spoilered.

pendell

2015-02-05, 09:07 AM

Chapter 13
Han, Leia and Threepio are visiting the Bothan embassy in order to acquire the records they just discussed. The Bothan official balks at first, but Han and Leia came prepared -- Threepio has been momentarily sold to Fey'la, therefore as his droid he has access to everything Fey'la would have access to. Leia and Han produce pages of Bothan regulations with the appropriate sections highlighted and bookmarked.

Yet again our heroes show stunning competence!

The Bothan official is flabbergasted but, being neatly and efficiently painted into a corner, can do nothing save acquiesce.

Before they pull their records, however, a mob incited by Nevett's team arrives at the embassy to demand Justice for Caamas. Nevett sees Han Solo on a balcony and raises his sniper rifle.

Two blaster shots echo from Han's platform and bothan officials area into the crowd, killing two people. someone -- probably an Imperial agent -- screams "There's the murderer!"

The crowd storms the embassy intent on ripping everyone inside limb from limb.

Leia draws her lightsaber but realizes the mob is out of control -- too many minds for her to subdue, and she neither wants to start hacking down unarmed citizens nor to permit them to murder the embassy personnel.

So she takes option 3: Using her lightsaber, she cuts down the balcony, severing the link between the first floor and the second. With no way up to the Bothans on the second floor, I assume the rioters mill around a bit and thoroughly trash the first floor before leaving.

The Noghri investigate and, thanks to their own experience as Imperial commandos, soon arrive at the truth of it. They find the remains of a redirection crystal on Han's balcony. When a blaster shot is fired into it, the energy from it will be absorbed and emitted as a second blast with a different color. It is used to frame people for murder.

The second piece of the puzzle, the Noghri deduce, is a Nightstinger sniper rifle which fires an invisible bolt. The bolt struck the redirection crystal, which redirected a visible bolt into the crowd, killing at random. This is a carefully constructed operations to frame the Bothans for murder, and bring a violent riot on their heads in response. And it would have worked, if not for our meddling kids!

Still, proving it to the rest of the galaxy will not be easy.

Chapter 14
The Starry Ice emerges from hyperspace near an unknown planet. There is a fortress on this planet in a crater -- a crater seemingly made by artificial means. Somebody used a great deal of power here -- the crater is too large to be made by the conventional weapon of an ISD or even an SSD, though a Death Star firing a superlaser at less than full power could have done it.

This warrants investigation. The Starry Ice carries two cargo shuttles and an in-system starfighter which lacks hyperdrive. Mara takes the starfighter alone to have a closer look.

I'm ma bit disappointed. An adventuring party should always have two, minimum, if at all possible.

Mara arrives and encounters a large number of winged creatures, which prevernt her access to the fortress by grabbing both her and her starfighter and transporting them to caves.

The creatures seem to have the capability of Force telepahty, but Mara's own abilities aren't strong enough to communicate with them. She can sense them well enough to sense that words are being said, but not so well as to actually understand them. She does comprehend that the thought "Skywalker" excites them.

Having nothing else to do for the moment, Mara makes camp. Perhaps she can find a Golden Cap tomorrow. :smallamused:

ETA: Pelleon makes an appearance in this chapter. Mulling over reports of instability of the Republic, he eventually concludes that the tactical situation is unchanged. He nonetheless remembers Thrawn's admonishment that an obstacle can become a lever. perhaps he can access the Empire's records on the Caamasi affair and offer them to the New Republic in exchange for diplomatic concessions. He makes a note to check this possibility at Yaga Minor when he arrives there, four stops from now.

...

It seems to me that Pelleon is that rarest of things in these novels, the Imperial protaganist. He's working to make the galaxy a better place and hasn't indulged in much evil since the Wayland cloning cylinders; the fact that he is in the opposite army from most of our heroes doesn't make him less a hero in his own right.

Good and evil aren't defined solely by the uniforms we wear. Is that what Zahn is trying to say?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

russdm

2015-02-05, 06:28 PM

It seems to me that Pelleon is that rarest of things in these novels, the Imperial protaganist. He's working to make the galaxy a better place and hasn't indulged in much evil since the Wayland cloning cylinders; the fact that he is in the opposite army from most of our heroes doesn't make him less a hero in his own right.

Good and evil aren't defined solely by the uniforms we wear. Is that what Zahn is trying to say?

I think so since Lucas had all Imps as evil and Rebs as good, then made those teams harmonious without having any issues amongst themselves. Nor does Lucas ever say anything about good Imperials or bad Rebels existing, leaving it to mean that there aren't any. At least that is my take on it.

pendell

2015-02-05, 06:49 PM

Not always. I remember listening to his commentary on the DVD version of the special edition of ESB. Lucas commented that , through the characters of Piett and Ozzel, he was trying to communicate that a large number of Imperial officers were honorable men who sincerely believed they were fighting for the right side. Sincere, but sincerely wrong.

I presume that is why Lucas didn't veto Zahn's work ; While film requires an erasure of subtlety to make its point, I think Lucas was more than willing for there to be shades of grey in the novels , aimed at a more mature audience. Perhaps the later fanaticism with which the fanbase adopted the Empire (there is a 501st Legion; there is no corresponding rebel formation) may have convinced him he needed to back off the gray areas; to say, "Whoa, guys, the Empire are the VILLAINS and you shouldn't be rooting for them."

...

Come to think of it, the shades of grey really comes out in the PT movies; in those movies you've got both major galactic polities being led by Sith Lords, both polities performing evil on a massive scale, and victory over the Confederacy ushers in the Empire.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-05, 08:29 PM

I dont see why Lucas should have any say in the impression Imperial officers made in ESB, as he didnt screenwrote the bloody movie..

McStabbington

2015-02-05, 08:37 PM

Lucas isn't averse to introducing depth, nuance and shading. It's just that he's terrible at picking his battles. If you look at the editorial history of the original trilogy, every change that Lawrence Kasdan made to the script was one that reduced the complexity of the characters and stripped them into a more elemental form. Of course, for reasons that Red Letter Media made clear, that ended up being a very good move on Kasdan's part: the sheer amount of new information that we had to process to handle the writers dumping us in media res into an entire new universe made narrative shortcuts like simplifying the characters and then letting the actors embellish with acting rather than traits made the whole thing manageable. But it was Lucas who wanted and fought for more complex, nuanced characters.

I really got the feeling that a lot of his choices in the prequel trilogy were similar attempts to create shade and nuance that, because he's got no feel for writing, simply led to unforced errors in the script. You could go into a lot of individual points (The Trade Federation's place in the Republic, the construction of a private army that needed to be met by mobilizing a Grand Army of the Republic, the use of false flag attacks), but the one that jumps out at me is his attempt to introduce midichlorians into discussions about The Force. When you think about it for a moment, the move in itself is not at all unlike taking apart a gizmo on Star Trek like the transporters or holodeck, explaining how the part works, and then presumably using that as a springboard for drama when that part goes haywire.

It's just that unlike the transporter or holodeck, The Force isn't a doodad. It isn't something that you can jigger and fix when it malfunctions. It's a fundamental part of the universe. Asking what happens when The Force malfunctions is a bit like asking what happens when the nuclear strong force malfunctions: the universe stops working and turns into some primordial subatomic soup. Rocks fall, everyone dies. And when he got backlash on that point, it was only then that he retreated to "hey, I was just making a movie for kids. And the kids love it." And of course, he is always sure to pick an interviewer that won't ask a followup question about why he chose to make a "kid's movie" that centered on something as esoteric as a trade dispute.

Cikomyr

2015-02-06, 08:02 AM

You can have all the best intentions of the world, but the only thing that can genuinely make characters subtle and nuanced is the dialogue.

Compare the Prequel Trilogy vs. ESB. He may have wanted to do some nuanced villains for both, but whereas we all remember Piett, Ozell and Needa, nobody cares about the antics of the.. Whateverblians who lead the Trade Federation. The only form of subtlety in Dooku comes from the performance of Christopher Lee, not fron his dialogue.

Lucas sucks at screenwriting.

pendell

2015-02-06, 09:00 AM

And if 'human drama' was what star wars is all about, why the devil, in Ep. III, did they kill off Christopher Lee in exchange for the unmemorable Grievous, whom I remember as a combination of a Dr. Seuss character and bad CGI?

I wanted more Lee. I wanted more lines. I wanted him to have a chance to strut his stuff. He should have filled Grievous' role in that film. It would make him all the more villainous, give him more lines, and wouldn't waste our time with a CGI muppet who appeared just for this movie and then disappeared again about halfway through it. From a movie perspective, Grievous was a nonentity.

Moving on.

Chapter 15

Lando is attempting to hire mercenaries to escort his shipments , and can't find any for less than fifty thousand a month. Fifty Thousand is an astronomical sum in the Star Wars universe. But it seems that everyone is hiring mercs and re-arming ; they expect the New Republic to either start ignoring events outside of the core worlds, or to fracture altogether. That means it's time to start settling old scores. The galaxy will disintegrate into a million quarrels, feuds, civil wars that have festered for decades. First, the Jedi kept a lid on things through mediation. Then , the Empire held it down with brute force. Now that both those options are off the table, the ancient antagonisms are flaring up again.

This doesn't look good for the Galaxy.

But in the near term, Lando has a problem. He 'happens' to encounter Senator Miatamia of Diamala, who is stranded on the planet by Caamas protestors who have blocked off his ship. He asks Lando to use his influence to get the protestors removed. Lando can't do that, but what he can offer the senator is transport in his own ship; once the senator is gone, undoubtedly the crowds will lose interest in the ship and crew.

Unknown to them, Tierce, Disra, and Flim have intelligence on their departure and lay an intercept course. Flim and Tierce leave to transfer to the Relentless which, along with an interdictor , will intercept Lando's craft. Flim is about to put on the performance of a lifetime...

Chapter 16
Admiral Pelleon is at Yaga Minor continuing his detective work and trying to persuade High General Hestiv, commanding the planet, to agree to his peace plan.

We learn that the Empire is changing its complexion ; since there are so many options, many of those who hate the Empire have already left it. Those few worlds that are left are, often as not, populated by fanatic Imperial loyalists. The main security problem Hestiv faces with dissidents is protecting them from over-zealous loyalists, allowing them to take the high ground in such disputes, an unusual situation for the Empire to be in.

Hestiv eventually agrees with great reluctance to Pelleon's plan. Next Pelleon begins his information search. Hestiv lets drop that Major Tierce was already here. This raises Pelleon's suspicion flags; the Major undoubtedly got what he came for, despite Hestiv's protestations that he was denied access. As may be, but Tierce is a man of resource.

Pelleon begins looking for the records of Disra's private dealings. The search for Caamas data comes up dry; if there is anything of interest, it will be in Special Files, which Pelleon doesn't have access to.

This frustrating turn of events dealt with, Pelleon prepares to journey to Pestlin for his intended negotiation with Bel Iblis and the Republic.

Still no word from Col. Vermel. It strongly implies the man has been intercepted. Pelleon worries about what that could mean, but has no alternative but to continue his course of action and respond to events as they unfold.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-07, 11:53 AM

Chapter 17

Luke arrives on the planet Cejansij and is met by a Republic Observer , Moshene Tre. The Republic observers are essentially Jedi knights without lightsabers, with a remit to report and observe to the central government, providing a direct line between the common people and Coruscant independent of their own goverments, the better to check abuses. Luke is brought with him to Tranquility Garden to experience the 'stars' of his vision -- many, many beings bearing lights. Some bear white lights, representing the Caamas tragedy. Others bear lights of different colors for all tragedies. The different lights unite together in a single powerful message: Justice for all. Justice cannot be limited to certain times or places; justice must be extended throughout the universe to all sentient beings.

It is a most powerful statement. Tre reminds Luke that not everyone concerned about Caamas is an Imperial agent or a saboteur -- there are millions of ordinary beings , like those below, with a simple difference of opinion.

Tre encourages Luke, nonetheless , to act quickly. Whisperers are already implying that the Republic cares nothing about anything that doesn't happen in the Core, and lost of small groups are gearing up for war, preparing to perpetuate and increase injustice rather than rectify it. We saw some of this two chapters ago when Lando was hiring mercenaries.

Tre invites Luke to a cafe afterwards, but being a Jedi he just can't keep out of trouble. He detects a gang of thugs about to attack an old woman and her 'child'.

Luke enters , and distracts the thugs for just a second ...

... a second they don't have. The "child" is a Noghri, and kills them all before anyone else can so much as blink.

Karrde's smugglers, at your service. The Noghri (Plakhmirakh) thanks Luke, telling him his actions gave Plakhmirakh a whole four extra seconds he might not otherwise have had :smallamused:. Moranda Savich, the "grandmother" who is his partner , examines the thugs to learn who they are.

Luke notes he was just trying to get in contact with Karrde. No sooner said than done. He's on-planet. Luke walks into Karrde's office not many minutes later.

They discuss. Luke tells Karrde about he's following a force vision. Karrde doesn't have much for him, though. Not a whisper about the clones, and the Cavrilhu pirates have gone to ground.

Nonetheless, they are both in the office when the report comes in that Mara's been captured. She departed for the planet, and when she didn't return during the time window Faughn departed and reported in. That's the intelligent thing to do for people who aren't plot-shielded main characters in stories.

They quickly plan a rescue: Luke will head out in his X-wing immediately. Karrde will have it refueled and will also send Jade's Fire to rendezvous with Luke out-system; the X-wing does not have the quarters or medical facilities to attend to Mara. As Luke heads out, Karrde gets him to mention his vision concerning Mara. That bothers Karrde a lot.

Chapter 18.

Wedge and Bel Iblis find themselves in a tense situation in the Sif'kric system: The first of the little brushfire grudge-settling is underway. The planet is under blockade by another local group called the Frezhlix; Two Kruk[/url]-class battleships, five [i]Lancer frigates, and 30 modern starfighters. It seems they are using the Sif'kric vote on the Caamas matter as an excuse to deal their rivals a blow under the pretext of 'justice'. Evidently a rare and highly perishable commodity was just harvested on the planet, and if it's held up by so much as 30 hours the entire year's crop will be worthless. That will be a severe kick in the economics.

Well, the New Republic doesn't allow member planets to indulge in private wars, and this is an insystem matter so "our blockade is perfectly legal."

Iblis isn't quite willing to accept that. There are a number of civilian ships in standoff with the Frezhliz on the far side of their fleet. A quick discussion with Corran Horn and a sensor scan reveals that one of them is flying a false ID -- the Hoopster's Prank owned by one Booster Terrik. Almost certainly a smuggler.

Bel Iblis orders his entire fleet forward towards the ship, under the pretext of seizing and inspecting it, which IS within New Republic remit. The Frezhlix see the ships coming and assume they are being attacked. Panicking, they fire on the New Republic ships.

Well, that's torn it. A local system defense force has fired on New Republic naval craft. Bel Iblis now has all the justification he needs to demand the immediate, unconditional surrender of the Frezhlix fleet. When they refuse, a general fleet engagement follows, ending in the destruction of the Frezhlix force and the lifting of the blockade.

Hrm. While the blockade needed to be lifted this fight nonetheless ended in bloodshed. That's not what peacekeepers are supposed to do. I suspect there will be repercussions.

In the short term, however, Republic Command has nothing to complain about , since the attempt at disrupting free flow of trade was terminated and a smuggler got arrested to boot. Ackbar, who hates smugglers with a passion, finds that amusing.

While they are making the report, the transmission is abruptly cut off; the HNE link in the Mengjini system is down. Iblis orders the task force to general quarters and to proceed there with all possible haste. Whatever would knock a fleet relay off line can't be good news.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Bob of Mage

2015-02-07, 02:27 PM

Why is it that someone in the NR is always trying kill another member? It seems like they have more infighting than the sith!

Mercenary Pen

2015-02-07, 03:53 PM

Of course, chapter 11 told us that Booster Terrik is Corran's father in law- so part of Admiral Ackbar's amusement comes from the many strained family gatherings sure to be in Corran's future.

pendell

2015-02-07, 04:37 PM

Why is it that someone in the NR is always trying kill another member? It seems like they have more infighting than the sith!

It's not surprising, is it? Look at how many wars are occurring on our planet right now, and we're only one planet. It seems like wherever two or three intelligent beings are gathered together, there is at least one cause for a nasty murder. Especially if sex is somehow involved.

The surprise of Star Wars isn't that the galaxy is one step away from civil war; the miracle is that the Republic maintained something resembling peace and justice for more than a thousand years. They did this by providing a forum for arbitrating disputes (the Senate) and an enforcement mechanism (the Jedi, backed by local forces), in case anyone didn't agree with the ruling and chose the path of violence.

The problem is that somewhere along the way the Senate completely lost its moral credibility and its ability to arbitrate. I get the impression that, by the prequels , the Republic was a Jedi dictatorship in all but name, since anything that really needed to be done was done by Jedi moderators. Often in secret, and often without any consultation of the Senate.

It's because the quarreling factions could not be brought to an agreement that the idea of a dictator who could force a resolution of disputes became so popular. Padme and Anakin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Ti9NXc7CM) talk about this.

In a way, it sets up a what-if alternative universe scenario: What if, after killing his master, Darth Sidious had accidentally stepped in front of a train? What if the Sith really WERE completely extinct in the time of the original stories?

If Zahn had been writing the story, I don't think it would have been an era of peace and prosperity. Instead, the same centrifugal forces which set the Trade Federation against Naboo would have accelerated; the galaxy would have still gone to civil war. But instead of a war against a united Empire, it would be a war of all against all, an anarchy. Because the senate simply had no credibility.

Simply killing the Emperor and restoring the senate doesn't solve these underlying problems; it simply means that they are back having to deal with the same problems that broke the Republic in the first place.

An Imperial sympathizer might very well make the argument that Palpatine represented the lesser evil; that the establishment of the Empire prevented the complete collapse of the galaxy into an even worse free-for-all that would have lasted centuries, and that even the atrocity of Alderaan, as unforgivable as that was, would still be a lesser evil compared to hundreds or thousands of worlds suffering Base Delta Zero in the decades or centuries following the Collapse.

At which point, of course, Lucas would take over the writing, denounce said sympathizer as evil, have him murder some puppies while laughing manically, then finally be thrown into a reactor shaft by some young teenager with pearly white teeth and a lightsaber, practicing extreme brutality while mouthing platitudes about nonviolence. Reason, you see, is evil . Good people, by contrast, act on instinct without thought of the consequences.

Not that I'm bitter.

Be that as it may -- the founders of the New Republic have to face this challenge. The Republic has reached a point where, like a Phoenix, it needs to die in its own ashes and be renewed. They need to face up to both the utter bankruptcy of the Old Republic and offer a better solution that DOESN'T require murdering millions of innocents on an unarmed world for the 'greater good'. I think their idealism, while it makes them good, is also a hindrance; their hatred of the evils of the Empire has blinded them to the fatal weaknesses of the Old Republic.

As I see it, what they're eventually going to need to do is make a polity that has the strength of the Empire and the ethics of the Old Republic .

Maybe some kind of Galactic Alliance? :smallwink:

As it is, they've currently made a new Republic with both the ethics of the Old Republic and the strength of the Old Republic, which is why they're failing the same way the Old Republic did. They need a New Republic that works, not just the corpse of the old one that died and is in desperate need of burial.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-07, 04:40 PM

Yeah, but remember that only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-07, 04:46 PM

I know :smallfrown: I want to read that AU. Maybe the two-book series the Vong invasion would take up in that timeline.

In which, presumably, the majority of the two books is the galaxy trying to stop laughing after the vong are absolutely and utterly masscred so hard in the first chapter.

I mean, can you imagine the horrors inflicted by putting Wedge in a Missileboat?

Dear frak.

*shudder*

I have to wonder if this isn't a not-so-subtle dig at the Jedi Sue-ism of the rest of the EU. The Jedi in other EU stories have blown up suns, pulled star destroyers from orbit, and done all kinds of things. It's hard to see why you even need the rest of the forces when Jedi are that powerful. Zahn resets our expectations; For the Jedi, the use of the Force is fraught with the danger of falling to the Dark Side, so wise Jedi limit their use of same. This also has the benefit of allowing the rest of his non-Jedi ensemble a chance to shine.

I always figured that was exactly what it was. Turns out I was right on the money.

And then after that, they went on to commit the NJO. (I say "commit" as in one not does "write" an atrocity...)

Luke and Mara sitting in a tree
K I S S I N G

It still astounds me that the post Thrawn Trilogy EU writers didn't appear pick up on that (which I thought was bloody obvious from the way they were heading by the end of the trilogy), until, once again, Zahn had to cudgel them with the patently obvious. (I mean, Mara and Lando? Really, guys? THAT's what you got out of the Thrawn trilogy? 'Crying out loud, Zahn pitched you a great slow ball for that one! You're so hopeless, youve reduced ME to making sport metaphors, what's wrong with you? Yeah, there is a reason I got rid of all your books, chaps.)

Going to tell you anyway.

Most of the absurd damage in the EU was perpetuated by the aforementioned Kevin J Anderson and his Jedi Academy books, and follow-up Darksaber. The ridiculous weapon the Sun Crusher, a fighter-sized ship whose armour can withstand a sun going nova (and whose on-board weapon causes exactly that to happen), is disposed of by being flown into the Gas Giant Yavin, only to be telekineticly retrieved by Kyp Durron. Standing on the surface of Yavin 4.

Luke gets shot down in a planet's upper atmosphere and telekineticly floats to the surface.

oh, and: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_on_Yavin_4

Pellaeon (under Daala's command...for some reason...) assaults the academy on Yavin 4 with [I]seventeen Imperial-class Star Destroyers. The assembled Jedi Force-push the fleet so far from Yavin 4 that when Daala arrives in her Super Star Destroyer, she cannot locate Pellaeon or his fleet.

Luke wasn't even present for that.

So, yeah, Zahn is orchestrating some pretty serious damage control here. If the characters joke that he could solve all of the novel's problems in five minutes, it's because according to Kevin J Anderson, he really can.

Yes, that was some of the biggest - and most damaging - bullcrap out there.

Not only that, but, amazingly, since he used the RPG a s source material to the point of canon(ish)ising the RPG Force skill of Control and Sense and whatever the third one was, he had things like Victory Star Destroyers being fast and manouverable. (I had to pause reading to stop laughing.)

Some say you require knowledge of the rest of the EU; I disagree. I hadn't read any of those books when I first read this one, and I already knew enough from context in this story to follow the role and personalities. It's an ISD that has somehow been commandeered and turned into a mobile smuggler's hideout. Therein hangs a tale, but one that isn't told here, sadly. A bit of advertisement for some of the EU Zahn liked perhaps.

This is because it was Stackpole and Zahn and Stackpole collaborated like bandits when they were both writing, and by ths stage of the game, boy does it show. In the RPG sourcebook-annual-thingies, there's a classic example of that in a story in which they co-wrote, which involves Corran Horn (as a CorSec investigator) and Thrawn, pretending to be a bounty-hunter who himself was a guy that wore Mandolorian armur to try and be like Boba Feet - and it is glorious!

I presume that is why Lucas didn't veto Zahn's work ; While film requires an erasure of subtlety to make its point, I think Lucas was more than willing for there to be shades of grey in the novels , aimed at a more mature audience. Perhaps the later fanaticism with which the fanbase adopted the Empire (there is a 501st Legion; there is no corresponding rebel formation) may have convinced him he needed to back off the gray areas; to say, "Whoa, guys, the Empire are the VILLAINS and you shouldn't be rooting for them."

Shouldn'ta let 'em make TIE Fighter then, should he?

Why is it that someone in the NR is always trying kill another member? It seems like they have more infighting than the sith!

One of the other things I like about this duology is it points out the fact that without the stability of Imperial Teacher standing with a big stick and saying "NO" all the children went right back to beating each other up... Silly rebels.

Yeah, but remember that only a Sith deals in absolutes.

I wonder if Lucas ever realised how hilariously self-defeating that line of dialogue was?

pendell

2015-02-07, 04:47 PM

Yeah, but remember that only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Of course, that's why their religion is banned, their holocrons and books are confiscated, and any Sith anywhere in the galaxy is killed on sight. Because the Jedis are great believers in relativism and moral equivalence.

The sarcasm is strong in this one.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

GAThraawn

2015-02-07, 05:08 PM

It still astounds me that the post Thrawn Trilogy EU writers didn't appear pick up on that (which I thought was bloody obvious from the way they were heading by the end of the trilogy), until, once again, Zahn had to cudgel them with the patently obvious. (I mean, Mara and Lando? Really, guys? THAT's what you got out of the Thrawn trilogy? 'Crying out loud, Zahn pitched you a great slow ball for that one! You're so hopeless, youve reduced ME to making sport metaphors, what's wrong with you? Yeah, there is a reason I got rid of all your books, chaps.)

It was actually quite the opposite, the EU writers were informed that Luke and Mara were going to get together, and not to step on the toes of that plot line by getting either of them romantically involved with anyone else. This lead to a dry spell in Luke's love life where readers spent several years complaining that he was cursed, since everyone he might fall for died or otherwise became unattainable. Then Zahn wrote this series, and revealed in interviews that it was planned out all along. The other EU writers had just been asked kindly to not steal his thunder.

I get the impression that, by the prequels , the Republic was a Jedi dictatorship in all but name, since anything that really needed to be done was done by Jedi moderators. Often in secret, and often without any consultation of the Senate.

I also get the impression that a lot of conflicts were not solved by the Old Republic or the Jedi. In Episode I, we see how adept the Trade Federation is at manipulating and stalling the senate, preventing any real intervention until their invasion is already complete. Other sources detailing species with grudges during the Old Republic indicate that some groups were just at perpetual war with one another, or perpetuating atrocities on other cultures and species while invoking the correct legislation to keep the Senate chasing its tail. Heck,
Emberlene, mentioned here, was a warmongering planet that conquered all of its neighbours before they were forced to hire mercenaries to retaliate and nearly BDZ it. All under the noses of the Republic.

It's my strong impression that, when painted in a reasonable light, the Empire is a fascinating and reasonably justifiable demonstration of the usefulness of a dictatorship over a democracy once the member states become so numerous democracy becomes untenable. I don't think democracy has ever really worked in the Star Wars universe on a galactic scale, and I believe most impressions that it has come from good propaganda and sweeping under the rug the various conflicts that were allowed to perpetuate because it was to ineffectual to stop them. The Huk War (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Huk_War) lasted for generations before the Republic got involved, at which point they sided with the aggressors. Gran colonists invaded Malastare thousands of years ago and displaced the native Dugs, with the backing of the senate because they wielded more influence than the previously undiscovered indigenous species.

I rather like the interpretation that the Imperial period contained relatively few atrocities perpetuated on a scale much larger than those that occurred during the Old Republic, they simply receive more focus and are instigated by more one-dimensional moustache twirling villains who need to meet their quota of puppies kicked. My preferred head canon is to discount or discredit the George Lucas veneer of "Mwahahaa we're EVIL!" (Okay, some Imperial officers were awful people, that happens in every system of government, but it need not represent the system as a whole), and consider the Empire as an organization written by Zahn: forceful, authoritarian, unilateral and effective. I think Zahn does amazing work in all of his novels pointing out the flaws of the New Republic, just as they were with the Old Republic, and that in a galaxy as large and complex as Star Wars, simply being the "good guys" isn't enough, and that despite the worst of the Empire, it might have had a degree of efficacy the Republic doesn't.

Of course, this is clearly not intended to be the interpretation of the EU many of the authors wish, so for every Zahn writing a Thrawn, there's a Kevin Anderson writing a Daala.

PairO'Dice Lost

2015-02-07, 05:15 PM

This is because it was Stackpole and Zahn and Stackpole collaborated like bandits when they were both writing, and by ths stage of the game, boy does it show. In the RPG sourcebook-annual-thingies, there's a classic example of that in a story in which they co-wrote, which involves Corran Horn (as a CorSec investigator) and Thrawn, pretending to be a bounty-hunter who himself was a guy that wore Mandolorian armur to try and be like Boba Feet - and it is glorious!

It is indeed glorious. For those who are interested in reading that but don't have an extensive collection of late-90's-era RPG supplements lying around, it was also included in the Tales from the Empire anthology, which is significantly easier to get one's hands on these days.

Mercenary Pen

2015-02-07, 06:59 PM

In which, presumably, the majority of the two books is the galaxy trying to stop laughing after the vong are absolutely and utterly masscred so hard in the first chapter.

I mean, can you imagine the horrors inflicted by putting Wedge in a Missileboat?

Dear frak.

*shudder*

Well
there was the time they put a significant portion of rogue squadron into TIE defenders... but let's be honest, if there were any inclination to put Wedge in a Missile boat, it would probably happen during a missile shortage- because the non-game portions of the EU don't have abundant supplies of starfighter grade missiles and/or torpedoes

Douglas

2015-02-07, 07:04 PM

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-07, 07:54 PM

No, the slaughter of the vong wouldn't happen until the second chapter. Thrawn would have to study their artwork in the first.

You're right, of course!

Well
there was the time they put a significant portion of rogue squadron into TIE defenders... but let's be honest, if there were any inclination to put Wedge in a Missile boat, it would probably happen during a missile shortage- because the non-game portions of the EU don't have abundant supplies of starfighter grade missiles and/or torpedoes

Well, with Thrawn in charge and everyone working under him...

Ye gods, though, just the thought of the rebels and the Empire working together under Thrawn would be a masscre beyond even my wildest Imperial-victory headcanons...!

Bob of Mage

2015-02-07, 08:56 PM

It was actually quite the opposite, the EU writers were informed that Luke and Mara were going to get together, and not to step on the toes of that plot line by getting either of them romantically involved with anyone else. This lead to a dry spell in Luke's love life where readers spent several years complaining that he was cursed, since everyone he might fall for died or otherwise became unattainable. Then Zahn wrote this series, and revealed in interviews that it was planned out all along. The other EU writers had just been asked kindly to not steal his thunder.

I also get the impression that a lot of conflicts were not solved by the Old Republic or the Jedi. In Episode I, we see how adept the Trade Federation is at manipulating and stalling the senate, preventing any real intervention until their invasion is already complete. Other sources detailing species with grudges during the Old Republic indicate that some groups were just at perpetual war with one another, or perpetuating atrocities on other cultures and species while invoking the correct legislation to keep the Senate chasing its tail. Heck,
Emberlene, mentioned here, was a warmongering planet that conquered all of its neighbours before they were forced to hire mercenaries to retaliate and nearly BDZ it. All under the noses of the Republic.

It's my strong impression that, when painted in a reasonable light, the Empire is a fascinating and reasonably justifiable demonstration of the usefulness of a dictatorship over a democracy once the member states become so numerous democracy becomes untenable. I don't think democracy has ever really worked in the Star Wars universe on a galactic scale, and I believe most impressions that it has come from good propaganda and sweeping under the rug the various conflicts that were allowed to perpetuate because it was to ineffectual to stop them. The Huk War (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Huk_War) lasted for generations before the Republic got involved, at which point they sided with the aggressors. Gran colonists invaded Malastare thousands of years ago and displaced the native Dugs, with the backing of the senate because they wielded more influence than the previously undiscovered indigenous species.

I rather like the interpretation that the Imperial period contained relatively few atrocities perpetuated on a scale much larger than those that occurred during the Old Republic, they simply receive more focus and are instigated by more one-dimensional moustache twirling villains who need to meet their quota of puppies kicked. My preferred head canon is to discount or discredit the George Lucas veneer of "Mwahahaa we're EVIL!" (Okay, some Imperial officers were awful people, that happens in every system of government, but it need not represent the system as a whole), and consider the Empire as an organization written by Zahn: forceful, authoritarian, unilateral and effective. I think Zahn does amazing work in all of his novels pointing out the flaws of the New Republic, just as they were with the Old Republic, and that in a galaxy as large and complex as Star Wars, simply being the "good guys" isn't enough, and that despite the worst of the Empire, it might have had a degree of efficacy the Republic doesn't.

Of course, this is clearly not intended to be the interpretation of the EU many of the authors wish, so for every Zahn writing a Thrawn, there's a Kevin Anderson writing a Daala.

The thing was that during the Imperial rule most of the atrocities were done by the Imperials to others. Really you had two choices, do what your master said, or face the fate of all terrorist/rebel/protester/openminded scum. With that happening the Empire was such a huge hate magnet that everyone was too busy to fight each other. Of course if they still tried to have a civil war, the Empire come along and bomb everyone until it stopped (also a chance one side could bride the Empire to just bomb the other guys).

It just seems a bit weird that worlds that are allied with each other and are just finshing up a war they fought together in, would be willing to shoot each other at the drop of a hat. I would think it would be sort of like the members of the EU shooting at each other. The EU is the closest earth body to what the NR is. And no the UN does not count since it has little power to force its memebers to do what they don't want.

GAThraawn

2015-02-07, 11:49 PM

The thing was that during the Imperial rule most of the atrocities were done by the Imperials to others. Really you had two choices, do what your master said, or face the fate of all terrorist/rebel/protester/openminded scum. With that happening the Empire was such a huge hate magnet that everyone was too busy to fight each other. Of course if they still tried to have a civil war, the Empire come along and bomb everyone until it stopped (also a chance one side could bride the Empire to just bomb the other guys).

It just seems a bit weird that worlds that are allied with each other and are just finshing up a war they fought together in, would be willing to shoot each other at the drop of a hat. I would think it would be sort of like the members of the EU shooting at each other. The EU is the closest earth body to what the NR is. And no the UN does not count since it has little power to force its memebers to do what they don't want.

I think that there are other parts of the world at the moment who would be a better comparison than the EU; but I hesitate to bring real world politics into this discussion. The point, however, is that these worlds were never allies; under the Old Republic, things were lax enough that many of these words could conquer, invade and harry each other over ancient grievances, and all they had to do to get away with it was avoid catching the ire of the Jedi Council. When the Empire came to power, such things were clamped down on; yes in some cases the Empire came down on what we would call the wrong side, such as allowing Trandoshan slavers to hunt and enslave Wookies, but regardless of their decision, it was final, and a Star Destroyer would never be too far away from your system if you decided to start warmongering again.
The Yam'rii did not continue their decades of conquest and expansion under Imperial rule, much to the relief of other species nearby. The planetary safaris that hunted sentient Barabels were clamped down on and the company shut down. The Frezhlix kept their discontent to themselves.

Basically, the Empire lived up to its title as the New Order: regardless of whether you agreed with their policy or not, they intended to keep the peace, and keep it with very large guns. The only fighting that was to occur under Imperial rule was fighting they initiated. For lots of species and systems, that didn't mean their grievances went away, but they didn't dare act on them with Star Destroyers overhead. Now that that threat has been removed, they're free to go back to hating each other as they did before. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them rebelled against the Empire specifically so that they could be free to attack each other. Or, in some cases, they had nothing to do with the rebellion; the Emperor died 15 years ago now; many of these sectors have simply moved away from the Empire over time as it has diminished.

McStabbington

2015-02-08, 02:46 AM

Honestly, the thing that I most yearn for when reading Zahn's books is a simple, clear analysis of the motive of the actors in the prequels. Okay, so we have a Trade federation and they a are "up to no good" TM. But why? What is it that they get out of being in a partnership with this Sidious fella? What are their interests that Naboo of all places is threatening that some other place like Corellia or Alderaan or even this Camaas is not.

Lucas really shot himself in the foot, I think, by not working out the motivations of his actors and then building his story from there, if for no other reason that it only encouraged us fans to invent rationales that are consistent but at the expense of making characters that are supposed to be shrewd and wise like Ben and Yoda into political incompetents living in their own fairy wonderland rather than actually describing the Empire accurately.

pendell

2015-02-08, 10:02 AM

I think that there are other parts of the world at the moment who would be a better comparison than the EU; but I hesitate to bring real world politics into this discussion.

Very wise.

Still, there are forces that make multiple related countries into a single common country. Any Game of Thrones fans here? The Seven Kingdoms are actually based on England , which until 1066 , was a Heptarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy). And the relationship between, say, East Anglia and Wessex was every bit as hostile as the bitter 19th century nationalisms we're all familiar with.

Yet today, the idea of Mercia leaving England and setting up as a country in its own right is ludicrous; even if England were to blow up in a civil upheaval (as it did in the 1640s) it wouldn't result in the country disintegrating back into its seven constituent kingdoms; it would simply result in a different England with a different government. I suspect that, to the people living there, it's been England for as long as anyone can remember; the fact that Northumbria used to be an independent kingdom with its own rights, traditions, and bitter grievances against the other kingdoms is only remembered by historians.

I'm not sure exactly how that works -- and it's not really forum-suitable, though very interesting -- but I think part of it is really good roads etc. and having them for generations. When York/Winterfell is a multiple-week journey across outlaw-infested wilderness from London/King's Landing, it's very easy for the people in York to think of themselves as living in a whole different world from the easy-living southerners. When you can travel that same distance in a few hours with no more risk than a traffic accident, it doesn't really seem that different from across the street.

It's easy to think of people as the same as you, when you're next door neighbors. That's not a measure of geography but of time and travel expense. And when you're next door neighbors you start to share language, culture, traditions even if you don't want to.

At any rate , those forces which bind people together don't seem to exist in the Republic of Star Wars; it's simply too large. The Trade Federation doesn't share a common language or common interests or a common biology with the people of Naboo. It's very easy to think of the next planet over as alien , another world, because that's totally what it is :smallamused:. You might be able to bind Corellia and Coruscant together that way, but it ain't happening with Nar Shaddaa and Kasshyk.

So they aren't the EU or England. They're more like .. well, like the Roman Empire, when you had Gauls , Germans, and every kind of ethnic group whose only common bond was an upper class who spoke Latin and a shared allegiance to/hatred of the city of Rome, which most of them had never seen.

I find it veerry interesting that the Core Worlds we have seen -- Corellia, Coruscant, Alderaan -- are all populated by humans with a common culture. I suspect there's a certain resentment from other species that the Galactic Republic is really the Republic of Humans and Assorted Disposable Minions.

Which would explain why pretty much all of the Confederacy was composed of nonhumans such as the Trade Federation and the Techno Union; they wanted out because they believed the Republic to be, far from a place of peace and justice, a place where rich humans lived in that illusion at the expense of everyone else in the galaxy.

Considering just how quickly the Republic became the Empire with its policy of Human High Culture (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Human_High_Culture), I'd say their concerns were not wholly unjustified.

So one way to view the clone wars is as an anti-colonial revolt against a soft imperialism in which most of the Galaxy was exploited for the benefit of the Core Worlds. This revolt ended when the Core adopted hard imperialism and military dictatorship, then crushed the aspirations of the subject peoples with brutal, overwhelming force, stripping off the mask it had been wearing for so many years.

If that's the case, then that totally explains why the collapse of the Republic results in chaos and anarchy, unlike certain modern areas of the world. Its because it's not a common country or a common alliance -- it's a bunch of disparate little places and kingdoms which have been held together with baling wire and duct tape for generations. The various peoples of the galaxy have been just waiting for the moment to start acting on their independent aspirations -- i.e. killing each other -- and the weakness of the Republic is an opportunity they can't miss. From that perspective, the Caamas crisis is a golden opportunity, a pretext to act on the desires they can't speak publicly in the name of "justice".

At any rate, the story continues.

Chapter 19
Lando and the Senator are ambushed by the Chimaera and an interdictor cruiser. Lando drops a torpedo which explodes into trac-reflective particles, essentially the same trick Luke tried in The Last Command.

It doesn't work this time. They are captured and reeled in.

Evidently Thrawn's decision to invest in that one Imperial tractor beam operator, rather than executing him for failure, is paying dividends. That operator evidently did eventually find a way to break that gambit, and it appears to have been Imperial practice for awhile now. Thrawn's Legacy in the Empire continues.

Lando and the Senator are brought before "Thrawn", who offers his help to solve the Bothan crisis. He offers to interrogate the Bothan leaders to uncover the truth.

Lando, being intelligent, asks Thrawn a question during this meeting.

I saw you once , from a distance, while you were in the company of the smuggler Talon Karrde. Can you tell me where that was and why you were there?

Unfortunately for Lando, the conspirators had records of that event and Flim has reviewed them thoroughly. He correctly answers that this was on Myyrkr, when he was searching for Luke Skywalker.

Well, that satisfies Lando for the moment that he's dealing with the real deal. They are escorted back to their ship and sent on their way, carrying the psychological equivalent of a proton torpedo.

The villains are happy about this. Major Tierce alters the plan -- they will remain in New Republic space for awhile and send activation codes to sleeper cells there. He also wants to observe the reaction to Thrawn's reappearance.

Disra is [correctly, in my estimation] disturbed by this; they are doing more and doing it far more quickly than prudence will dictate. Essentially they are running a giant bluff on the New Republic, the more they act and the more obvious they are the more likely that bluff will be called.

Tierce acts anyway. Disra begins to consider him a loose cannon and ponders whether Tierce will have to be eliminated in the near future.

Chapter 20

The Senate is in an uproar in response to Lando's revelation of Thrawn. It is a most unedifying sight to see the various senators panicking like chickens when the shadow of a hawk crosses the yard. Almost the designs of the villains go astray, as there is a sizeable contention who responds to the reappearance of Thrawn by demanding the entire military force of the Republic be thrown at the Empire NOW, AT ONCE, before Thrawn can do whatever he's planning to do. The mere appearance of Thrawn is to make the various senators react like children who've encountered the monster under the bed; his name is a name of terror far beyond anything the real Grand Admiral could reasonably accomplish.

President Gavrisom has great difficulty keeping the various groups calm; a military offensive against the Empire [a great idea, in my estimation] is problematic because the Republic's forces are fully engaged with keeping the rest of the Republic from blowing up [as seen in TIE fighter, The Empire had a similar problem; only a fraction of the Empire's total military might was ever deployed against the Rebellion for just this reason, but the fraction they deployed was more than enough].

At any rate, he wants less panic and more calm deliberation as they find a strategy. But he's not getting it.

In the middle of this Talon Karrde arrives to speak with Leia. Despite the fact that Karrde's name is not in good odor on Coruscant, as part of the Senate's actions have included wild accusations against him, Leia uses her pull to get him landing clearance. They prepare to meet.

MEANWHILE, on the planet Pakrik Minor, an Imperial sleeper cell is activated. They receive Tierce's orders sent under Thrawn's name, which means its time to leave their peaceful undercover life as farmers and prepare for war again.

None of them are happy about it; they've been living as farmers for more than a decade. And Thrawn has been dead for over a decade, so who is this giving orders in his name?

Carib calls a meeting. They're going to discuss the order and what it means for them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-09, 06:29 AM

Chapters 21-22.

Luke, Han, Leia and Lando meet with Karrde. Their meeting is crashed by Shada, who has been attempting to see them through channels for days now and being stonewalled. So she infiltrates right past Noghri commandoes right into their bedroom and offers her services to the New Republic. Leia turns her down , saying 'none of us are in the hiring business'.

...

Excuse me? You're a politician. You can't pick up a phone and get Admiral Ackbar or someone from Republic Special Forces on the line who IS in the business of hiring? You can't find a place, anywhere in the entire Republic Armed Forces, who's better at their job than your Noghri bodyguards?

Come on , man .

Either they're being unaccountably lazy and stupid, or Leia's turning her down out of lack of trust and not being in the 'hiring business' is a pretext.

This is a comedown for Shada. Leaving Mazzic and the Mystral, then signing on with the New Republic was a life-changing event for Shada, a massive psychological deal, and the New Republic doesn't want her.

Karrde takes her in. HE can use good people even if the Republic can't, and they prepare for the mission they were just discussing.

What is that mission? Right. Well, first they argue about who Thrawn is and come to no firm conclusions. Is this really Thrawn? Or a clone? Something else? What's his plan, and how's it related to Caamas?

Meanwhile, the entire galaxy is arming up to go to war using Caamas as a pretext. The weakness of the New Republic is tempting them to settle scores. The only thing our heroes can do, short-term, is remove the pretext. Identify the guilty perpetrators and absolve the rest of the Bothan race.

Easier said than done. There are two sets of Imperial records, one on Yaga Minor and one on Bastion. While the code name 'Bastion' is well known, the actual world it refers to is not; it's real name and location are among the most tightly guarded secrets in the Empire, so that's not an option.

Lando badgers Karrde with all his skill into going for a third option -- to go to a being named Cardas, an information broker, who might have a third copy of the data. This being is evidently a villain in another EU story, putting in a guest appearance here. Karrde reluctantly agrees to go look with Lando, taking Shada along with him.

Why do I think this little jaunt is going to turn out to be a wild goose chase?

They also fill each other in on other matters of interest; the unknown ships broadcasting Thrawn's full name, Mara's pursuit of them and disappearance on an unknown planet, Luke's attempt to rescue her.

So that's it: If I'm reading this right, Lando , Karrde and Shada are going to see Jorg Car'das in order to see about a copy of the Caamas document [bet they're wasting their time]. There's no specific assignment but I have a hunch Leia will remain on Coruscant to play political firewoman, and Han will stay with her and try to keep her from either being assassinated or overworked. And somewhere in here Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin will need looking after as well.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

GAThraawn

2015-02-09, 03:33 PM

You can't find a place, anywhere in the entire Republic Armed Forces, who's better at their job than your Noghri bodyguards?

I imagine Leia's first reaction to people who appear unannounced in her bedroom is suspicion. And she probably knows the conversation she would have to have with the people in the hiring business would entail "How do you know she's any good?" "Well, I've no idea who she is, but she could have murdered me in my sleep, and she didn't...". It also sets a rather bad precedent of encouraging people to try and show up unannounced in your bedroom as an effective method for getting a job interview. I mean, is Leia's reaction really that surprising?

McStabbington

2015-02-09, 08:55 PM

Yeah, I have to agree with GAThrawn on this one: Shada would have served herself much better by reading The Onion (http://www.theonion.com/articles/romanticcomedy-behavior-gets-reallife-man-arrested,757/) in addition to learning all those ninja skills. Any plan that includes "and then I show up unannounced in a woman's bedroom while she's asleep" as either a critical step or a conclusion is a plan that needs at least one critical or concluding step rethought.

It doesn't help that once again, the Noghri suffer from The Worf Effect.

In the meantime, maybe it's just the Builder in me, but I really think it might have been cooler in retrospect to have an EU that was focused more on the labors of constructing a functional New Republic rather than one that faced one terrible external threat after another. Admittedly, this might be just me, as I'm the kind of gamer who regards those other nations in Civilization as annoying obstacles to my real focus of city-building, but when I look at these stories that hinge on the internal weakness and lack of infrastructure for the New Republic, what I see is a story-telling opportunity that was missed. I would be quite cool with a story where the tension is less that Luke is faced off with yet another evil megalomaniac space wizard bent on galactic domination than with the tension between training his padawans versus the need to get Jedi out there into the galaxy to serve as peacekeepers, mediators and heroes for a Republic that needs some form of stability and unifying force. A story that ends with the restoration of the Republic as it was meant to be rather than one continually beset by one threat from beyond the known territories after another.

pendell

2015-02-09, 10:58 PM

I dunno, a practical demonstration would definitely make her stand out from the stack of resumes :smallamused:. If you don't trust her, stick her in the Republic version of the Commandos and let them run a background check on her, then use her somewhere far away. Let her earn trust.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-10, 06:45 AM

Chapter 23

We're near the end of the book, so it's time to culiminate in a space battle!

More like, two!

Our scene opens on the Peregrine task force. Unbeknownst to Wedge and his fellow pilots , the reason they are in the system they are is because Bothan intelligence has been forewarned of trouble, so they have called in a favor to have a Republic task force paged for a false mediation request, barely any distance at all from Bothawui.

Bel Iblis will be furious when he finds out; I'm not. The Bothans are fighting for their lives, and it got him precisely where he needed to be to do the job he's paid to do, so what's his beef?

As the alarm goes off, Wedge and Rogue squadron scramble to meet a Lereshem attack force inbound to Bothawui.

The commander of the fleet explains that they were here because two lereshems were killed during a protest at the Bothan Embassy -- the one Leia and Han were at. They are a clan-based society, and their law code demands blood for blood; the guilty party, or ten innocent from his clan. Two Lereshem killed, twenty Bothans must die.

Ah, clan feud. That wonderful thing that has set parts of this world at each other's throat for generations. So when you kill twenty of theirs, and they kill twenty of yours, you kill two hundred of theirs back, they kill two hundred of yours, and the battle escalates geometrically until, finally, no one is left alive to raise a gun. But hey, at least we avenged the wrongs done to us, right?

Clan feud IS something that keeps the peace in tribal societies; it forces the tribe to be responsible for its own members, and in some societies actually works. But when it comes in contact with some other society that doesn't follow those rules, the result is genocidal war.

This, by the way, is why the New Republic is so fragile; workalbe alliances also have common assumptions in law. The laws and penalties for, say, murder or theft are essentially the same throughout the western world. But when one society's mores and laws are radically different from another's, no real alliance is possible, long-term.

A stable society needs a common framework of laws and an impartial arbitrator / enforcer of same. But radically different laws and customs coupled with a weak enforcement system gives you the League of Nations.
Well, Rogue squadron isn't going to permit that today. They interpose themselves between the attacking fleet and their target -- an orbiting manufacturing facility with a crew of fifteen to twenty-one.

The Lereshee call their bluff. The X-wings prepare to engage -- but Corran Horn stops them as his Force Danger sense just hit the alarm button.
A visual inspection by Wedge quickly reveals that the entire squadron has been boobytrapped by the ground crew! Any attempt to fire or lock S-foils will result in the fighters breaking, at minimum losing the ability to fire. They are helpless, and the rest of the Peregrine force is out of position.

The Lereshee open fire on the platform and kill twenty innocent lives. Their justice has been paid -- but the first shots in what may be the Galaxy's last war have just been fired.

Things look very bad for the Republic. Any serious intervention to stop or punish the Lereshee is vetoed by mulitple senators. Additional senators present their own demands as their own nations prepare for unilateral military action against Bothawui. The Mon Calamari and the Diamalans move their own warships to protect Bothawui -- but under their own flags, not the New Republic's.

The New Republic's flaccid response to this crisis, unable to protect a Core World from a local force without a single ISD in its order of battle, is close to discrediting it completely, paving the way for an orgy of violence on a galactic scale. Our heroes have a very short window to do something about this.

Han, however, asks Leia to attend a conference and use that as a pretext for a working vacation. President Gavrisom is glad for them to go, as Han and Lando have become political embarrassments due to their report of Thrawn's presence. He books them a trip to Parrik Major, a little place out in the middle of nowhere --
-- which is the twin planet to Parrik Minor, where our Imperial sleeper cell was activating last chapter. No rest for the Force-Sensitive.

Chapter 24
The Chimaera floats in space at the rendezvous point. Captain Ardiff is convinced that they have been stood up, while Admiral Pelleon wants to wait a little longer.

As they discuss, a force of one Kaloth battlecruiser and four gunships with starfighter escort bearing Corellian insignia jump in and attack the Chimera.

We know that these are the Cavrilhu pirates from the last few chapters, acting at Moff Disra's request. But the Imperials don't know that.
Ardiff is convinced Bel Iblis is behind this. Pelleon isn't convinced... something is wrong.

And now it's Pelleon's turn to show he's learned a thing or two from Admiral Thrawn. He orders the fighter squadrons to remain docked and to engage the attackers with turbolasers only. The enemy fighters make two passes, but still Pelleon remains calm, to the consternation of his subordinate.

A sensor scan reveals the Kaloth is heavily ray-shielded, but has minimal protection against particle weapons such as proton torpedoes. This normally isn't an issue because the torpedoes can be detected and shot down by turbolasers long before they can be a threat. But Pelleon has other plans.
Pelleon orders one preybird squadron to launch and assume an attack vector against the dreadnaught. Shortly thereafter, he orders multiple volleys of proton torpedoes fired down that exact vector.

Ardiff is flabberghasted, but Pelleon remains calm.

The preybirds and the torpedoes close to minimum range against the dreadnaught and come close to merging on the scope. NOW Pelleon orders the preybirds to break off, which they do.

The Kaloth's turrets track the preybirds, and so the Kaloth is completely blindsided by the torpedoes. The first volley tears up the defenses, the next few volleys blast it to dust.

The rest of the attack force breaks off. the recriminations between the pirates and Disra will be delicious. Yay!

Wait. .. did I just cheer the Imperials? Clever, Zahn , very clever...

With the air of a magician who has just produced a rabbit from his hat, Pelleon turns to Ardiff and orders him to bring in any survivors, if possible, for interrogation. To continue to wait for Iblis to show up. Also to run the attack pattern through the Predictor.

The light bulb goes on. That's why Pelleon allowed a second pass by the enemy -- to collect more data for the Predictor. It proved useless for defending against a known attacker , but maybe it will be more helpful in reverse engineering -- to determine the attacker from the attack pattern.
But, Pelleon calmly informs his subordinate, he already knows that it wasn't Iblis.

Ardiff at this point is in total shock and awe. How can Pelleon possibly know that?

Pelleon has been in that subordinate's shoes with Grand Admiral Thrawn -- perhaps he smiles a bit inwardly. At any rate, he explains the tactic he used is called an "A-wing slash". That exact tactic is a Republic tactic, only they use A-wings flying behind a decoy force of X-wings rather than torpedoes and decoy Preybirds.

"And Bel Iblis wouldn't fall for that?" Asks Ardiff.

No, Pelleon replies. Pelleon was at the battle where Bel Iblis invented it.
Game, set and match to Admiral Pelleon. That's one crowning moment of awesome. He may not be in Thrawn's league, but he definitely didn't spend his time serving under him asleep.

TO BE CONCLUDED ..

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-10, 06:51 AM

The rest of the attack force breaks off. the recriminations between the pirates and Disra will be delicious. Yay!

Wait. .. did I just cheer the Imperials? Clever, Zahn , very clever...

With the air of a magician who has just produced a rabbit from his hat, Pelleon turns to Ardiff and orders him to bring in any survivors, if possible, for interrogation. To continue to wait for Iblis to show up. Also to run the attack pattern through the Predictor.

The light bulb goes on. That's why Pelleon allowed a second pass by the enemy -- to collect more data for the Predictor. It proved useless for defending against a known attacker , but maybe it will be more helpful in reverse engineering -- to determine the attacker from the attack pattern.
But, Pelleon calmly informs his subordinate, he already knows that it wasn't Iblis.

Ardiff at this point is in total shock and awe. How can Pelleon possibly know that?

Pelleon has been in that subordinate's shoes with Grand Admiral Thrawn -- perhaps he smiles a bit inwardly. At any rate, he explains the tactic he used is called an "A-wing slash". That exact tactic is a Republic tactic, only they use A-wings flying behind a decoy force of X-wings rather than torpedoes and decoy Preybirds.

"And Bel Iblis wouldn't fall for that?" Asks Ardiff.

No, Pelleon replies. Pelleon was at the battle where Bel Iblis invented it.
Game, set and match to Admiral Pelleon. That's one crowning moment of awesome. He may not be in Thrawn's league, but he definitely didn't spend his time serving under him asleep.

TO BE CONCLUDED ..

I noticed that the TV Tropes page for Hand of Thrawn cites it as "the moment people realise that The Empire in general, and Pellaeon in particular, are finally heroes rather than villains" (or something along those lines, anyway).

Cikomyr

2015-02-10, 07:49 AM

It doesn't help that once again, the Noghri suffer from The Worf Effect.

For sure, but Shadda do indeed point out in her inner monogue that the Noghri managed to track her step, follow her down the window without any equipment, and ambush her.

After making a mental jab at their uselessness, she is hit hard in the face that they leave her in the dust for most of her skills. She only managed to get this far by abusing a youngster's naivete (faking suicide attempt) and having the initiative.

Cikomyr

2015-02-10, 08:50 AM

By the way, the guy who sabotaged Rogue Squadron deserves to be executed for traitor. He nearly killed a whole squadron of Republic soldiers in a time of war.

Bob of Mage

2015-02-10, 10:05 PM

The New Republic's flaccid response to this crisis, unable to protect a Core World from a local force without a single ISD in its order of battle, is close to discrediting it completely, paving the way for an orgy of violence on a galactic scale. Our heroes have a very short window to do something about this.

Bothawui is actually a Mid Rim world, so I think they meant core, as in an important memeber.

I would also point out the idea about an anti-colonial revolt would be a bit out-dated. There is an entire region know as the Colonies. It sits between the Core and Inner Rim, and many of the worlds colonized were shortly after the hyperdrive was invented. Some of them were even founding memebers of the Old Republic. So in otherwords most major colonies have been around so long they are now powerful systems in there own right. A great example would be Fondor which has a shipyard that is only outclassed byt Corellia and Kuat.

I'd also point out the non-human worlds like Duro are in the Core. It's not the only one, and even "human" worlds have a large number of non-humans living on them. The Corellia system for example is home to two other races who more or less control thier homeworlds.

pendell

2015-02-11, 06:10 AM

Bothawui is actually a Mid Rim world, so I think they meant core, as in an important memeber.

Correction noted.

I would also point out the idea about an anti-colonial revolt would be a bit out-dated. There is an entire region know as the Colonies. It sits between the Core and Inner Rim, and many of the worlds colonized were shortly after the hyperdrive was invented. Some of them were even founding memebers of the Old Republic.

Be that as it may, Anti-human bias is real in the Empire, the revolt in support of alien right is canon in the Ep. III novelization, and the omnipresence of humans both in the highest levels of government and military point to the likelihood that the Old Republic existed by and for humans -- if aliens were in the core and had been around since the foundation of the Republic, at some point they may have been equals but their position grows increasingly marginalized until, at the time of the Empire, they were second-class citizens on their own worlds.

Incidentally, I thought the original Republic was an alliance between three planets -- Coruscant, Corellia, and I forget the third. Both are human dominated planets, and Coruscant is the planet of human origin in the GFFA.

Vision of the Future

Chapter 1

Aboard the Star Destroyer Chimaera, it has been 30 hours since the enemy attack was repelled. Pelleon is somewhat amused by Ardiff's wild speculations as to who the enemy might be, but he hasn't yet got the knack for Holmesian deduction yet. He has currently settled on pirates [in which he is correct], but neither he nor Pelleon can figure out the motive for such an attack. Why would pirates attack an Imperial Star Destroyer, not exactly a low-risk maneuver? Pelleon considers that sometimes pirates make stupid decisions, but such a decision on its own could only be made by a room-temperature IQ.

Is this attack a part of something bigger?

How did they know the Chimaera was here? And what happened to Colonel Vermel?

They continue to wait, silently. Pelleon won't allow a message to send because this is supposed to be a private meeting; if they broadcast their location, it may bring a lot more people to the party, some of them fully capable of defeating a Star Destroyer.

Cut to the Villain Trio, who are with an Imperial fleet which has just established orbit over Troctar, an important merchant center deep in the New Republic. Flim puts on his Thrawn act, and the Unified Factions (the polity governing the planet) practically throw themselves at his feet begging to be allowed back in the Empire. They had been promised freedom and safety, but now it appears that the New Republic can't keep order in the outworlds or prevent civil war any longer. The only remaining issue is the Empire's reputed discrimination against nonhumans.

"Flim", as Thrawn, assures them that this is a thing of the past; with a nonhuman running the Empire, the Empire has been forced to shed a lot of the superiorities , prejudices and assumptions that made them such a tyrannous lot back when they ruled the galaxy.

Of course, Zahn is rehabilitating the Empire to a certain extent...

He has to, because they're going to be allies against the Vong and if they're going to be protaganists they have to stop being Space Nazis.

... but it is rather possible. Part of the reason the Empire was cackling-mad evil was because it had the incarnation of Evil, namely Darth Sidious, sitting on the throne and bending all of it to darkness. That was fifteen years ago. Since then, the greatest influences on the Empire have been the legacy of Admiral Thrawn and Captain Pelleon. Admiral Thrawn may have been lawful evil, but he was pragmatic lawful evil, nowhere near the deep end of the scale that Palpatine was. And in any event he could hardly encourage nonhuman bias and prejudice, having suffered from it himself.

As for Pelleon, Zahn told us in the commentaries to the TT (though I forgot to mention it at the time) that Pelleon is modeled after Pelleas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelleas), the gentle knight of the Round Table. As such, Pelleon is lawful good, albeit serving an evil Empire for much of his life, and as he grows in influence within the Empire he has likewise been tilting it away from lawful evil towards his own alignment. There's still a fair number of lawful evil politicians and so forth et al, but the officers and men of the Imperial Navy are more and more modeled after Pelleon and imitate him.

At any rate, the Unified Factions beg for readmittance to the Empire, which "Thrawn" graciously grants. The name of Thrawn is a powerful one to conjure with, it seems.

Disra is upset. This is a system deep within the Republic. The original intent for this scheme was to use Flim in a limited way, to encourage Imperial morale. But the more and more often he is used the more and more likely it is for the mask to be stripped away. Even here, this was a dangerous move. If "Thrawn" had been forced into combat it would have been quickly revealed that Flim has no military genius, and the entire scheme would have popped like a soap bubble.

It also increases the chances that the Republic will finally take notice of the Empire long enough to squash what's left, and Disra's fear is not misplaced; just in the last book the revelation of Thrawn to Lando came close to bringing about the final campaign of this war.

Disra prepares to confront Tierce about his recklessness but is stopped en route by a call from Captain Zothip of the Cavrilhu pirates, again on his personal line, disregarding any pretext of operational security.

Zothip is angry about the loss of his battlecruiser, and his rage is every bit as glorious as anticipated. Disra is extremely angry both at his clumsiness in losing the ship -- he wasn't actually supposed to seriously engage the Chimaera -- and at the breach in security. He chews him out, warns him that this is what happens when you provoke the Empire, and that he shouldn't want a repeat lesson . He then angrily ends the call.

As Lando might say... "this deal gets worse all the time..." Disra's scheme is coming down around his ears.

Next he confronts Tierce, chides him for recklessness, and asks what Tierce is hiding. When Tierce says "that sounds like a threat", Disra responds "That was half of a threat. Here's the other half."

And he pulls a blaster on Tierce.

This doesn't end well for him. Tierce has incredible reflexes and speed. Disra is rapidly disarmed, but Tierce spares him. When Disra, from his position of weakness, presses, Tierce admits that he's after something he only encountered in records, which is why he went to Yaga Minor -- where he has already altered the Caamas records, by the way. He's looking for the Hand of Thrawn.

We've seen that mentioned only about twice before in the preceding book, but it is fast coming into prominence.

Tierce knows nothing about it save the name, and that it is the key to ultimate victory.

He doesn't have many pieces to the puzzle. He doubts it is another Imperial superweapon (Expectations management on Zahn's part : The rest of the EU is overrun with Galaxy Guns and Sun Crushers) -- it isn't Thrawn's style and it probably would have been found by now. He does, however, know that Mara Jade was the Emperor's Hand -- maybe Thrawn had a similar operative? He also knows that the Imperial officer who discovered Thrawn , Captain Parck, as well as a certain Captain Niriz of the Star Destroyer Admonitor, went into the unknown regions with Thrawn [along with the Admonitor) and never came back. Why? Some secret Thrawn has set up?

Tierce tentatively concludes that the "Hand" is some sort of secret strategy. Something that is Thrawn's style rather than the Emperor's or Daala's. Something that the missing men and ships are guarding in the Unknown Regions. Something that is the key to ultimate victory.

Meanwhile the three Imperial captains and destroyers we encountered in the last book are still tethered to a comet in the Bothawui system under cloak, waiting for the grand many-sided battle set off by the Caamas document to kick off. After the battle has concluded in near-mutual annihilation of all sides, they will decloak, finish the job, then Base Delta Zero Bothawui. Comments Captain Nalgol drops shows the anti-alien bias in the Empire is, contrary to Flim's assurances, still alive. Although to what extent is still up to question. The Imperials are flabberghasted that the galaxy is about to tear itself apart over something that happened decades ago, but chalk it up to aliens being crazy. Clearly Nalgol and his compatriots aren't deep thinkers.

Chapter 2

Luke Skywalker, who has been missing for much of the past book, finally comes out of hiding as he approaches the planet where Mara is captive in the Jade's Fire . They leave the Jade safely stashed and infiltrate the planet in Luke's X-wing (which has never been named).

Unfortunately, his stealth and secrecy aren't good enough. Two of the unknown craft, modifed TIE starfighters, rise to meet him as he appraoches the planet. Luke detects alien minds but has no baseline to guess what they are thinking. He can read no hostile intent, however, and their formation suggests escort rather than attack.

They hail him, but Luke doesn't speak their language and the onboard translator can't help. Too bad Threepio and his six million forms of communication aren't here. Luke responds in Basic , identifying as New Republic X-wing AA-589.

They receive his response and order him to follow them in. If he deviates from course, he will be destroyed. Just that quickly, this has gone from a friendly meeting to an arrest.

Luke follows them, but it isn't long into their journey when the escorts open fire. I guess Luke hasn't yet learned to read hostility from beings like this yet. It almost catches him by surprise, but he caught their intention through the Force a bare few seconds before they fired, and thus is able to evade the surprise attack.

Luke doesn't fire back, however. He still doesn't know who they are or why they are here. So he throws some Beggar's canyon-like maneuvers, things that would be suicidal for someone who isn't a Jedi Master, then goes to ground, hiding his X-wing among trees. I have a hard time such a thing could fool sensors for any length of time -- how many big chunks of metal are in the forest, and won't spectrum analysis show that? -- but hey , suspension of disbelief. Taking a survival pack, Luke prepares to explore the caves underneath the fortress.

Wait ... Hidden Fortress ... is that a shoutout to the original Kurosawa movie that Ep. IV was based on?

He isn't far along when he encounters the same winged creatures Jade encountered. As a full Jedi Master, however, he is able to understand their Force-communication and be understood in return. He soon meets Hunter of Winds, chief bargainer for this nesting of the Qom Qae, for that is what these beings call themselves.

Luke asks about Mara, and Hunter plays dumb but is called out by a youngling. Luke presses; he's hear for a friend, nothing more. He wishes to bring no trouble to the Qom Qae. There is mention of another people called the Qom Jha as well.

Meanwhile, Luke's X-wing disappears. The doing of the Qom Qae, perhaps ... but how? Some kind of Force trick? If they can communicate via the Force, maybe they can do other things too?

As Luke takes his leave of the Qom Qae, the youngling he met earlier sneaks out from his parents and offers to guide him to the Qom Jha, who have encountered another stranger (presumably like Luke) who is with them. Luke asks why he's willing to do this. The response: "You asked Hunter of Winds if he had ever had a friend in danger. I have."

This noble child's name is Child of Winds, son of Hunter of Winds.

Luke sets out with his companion to seek Mara Jade.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-11, 06:59 AM

Incidentally, I thought the original Republic was an alliance between three planets -- Coruscant, Corellia, and I forget the third. Both are human dominated planets, and Coruscant is the planet of human origin in the GFFA.

There were a whole bunch - of which Duro was the most notable of the alien-dominated ones - since they worked with Corellia to create the first modern-style hyperdrives:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Core_Founder

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive

pendell

2015-02-11, 07:43 AM

Veery interesting. Especially the article on Core Founder (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Core_Founder)

They included political players, and other important worlds, to the military, commerce, medical, diplomatic, and philosophical fields. Among others, the known founder worlds were Alderaan, Alsakan, Anaxes, Axum, Bezha Two,[1] Brentaal, Caamas, Chandrila, Corellia, Coruscant, Duro, Esseles, Humbarine, Kuat, Rendili, Rhinnal, Shawken, and Tepasi,[2] with Corulag and Kaikielius being possible founders.

"Core Founder" was also the term given to those founding fathers of the Old Republic. All of them Human, they were immortalized in the Avenue of the Core Founders on Coruscant.[3] The House of Tagge, the Kuat family[4], Praji family,[5] and the House of Organa[1] were descended from the Core Founders.

Bolding mine.

Wait just a doggone minute -- how is it that the Republic had a number of alien worlds as founding members but ALL of the founders of the Republic were human?

Also .. I note the names of the founders. Kuat and Tagge and Organa all show up frequently. So what we're seeing here is a system whereby a small group of rich, powerful families set up a system which allowed them to remain rich and powerful, ruling the galaxy for millenia. That couldn't possibly be seen as iniquitous by anyone, say, who had pretensions to power and wealth who wasn't a member of the favored families? Or , worse, was the wrong species?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-11, 07:49 AM

Wait just a doggone minute -- how is it that the Republic had a number of alien worlds as founding members but ALL of the founders of the Republic were human?

Apparently people were noticing and complaining about it:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Avenue_of_the_Core_Founders

Could be that the human families carefully and subtly sidelined the alien representatives right at the Founding, and made sure only their signatures actually ended up on the first copy of the Galactic Constitution - and only they got actual statues.

Then of course you've got Pius Dea:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pius_Dea

Seems like the struggle between humans and aliens was not exactly unique to the Palpatine era.

pendell

2015-02-11, 08:08 AM

Could be that the human families carefully and subtly sidelined the alien representatives right at the Founding, and made sure only their signatures actually ended up on the first copy of the Galactic Constitution - and only they got actual statues.

But if the aliens didn't sign on, the Constitution isn't binding on them, is it? Or is this a case where human civilizations in the core compromised some huge majority of the population, so that when the human worlds ratified the compact the alien worlds were forced to go along with it?

In our own history, the US constitution was considered ratified when nine out of the then-thirteen states accepted it. Perhaps it was a similar thing in the Republic? The human civs comprised 75%+ of the territory and resources of the original Republic, so the remaining peoples were brought in regardless of whether they ratified it or not?

Put differently, are you saying that the Galactic Republic was brought into existence without the recorded consent of even one nonhuman on the founding document?

Put that way, it's no wonder that the Republic should become the Empire. The wonder is it hadn't done it much earlier.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-11, 10:13 AM

Put differently, are you saying that the Galactic Republic was brought into existence without the recorded consent of even one nonhuman on the founding document?

Put that way, it's no wonder that the Republic should become the Empire. The wonder is it hadn't done it much earlier.

It's possible that this is how some EU writers are trying to put it - don't know if Lucas intended it that way though.

Philistine

2015-02-11, 08:47 PM

But if the aliens didn't sign on, the Constitution isn't binding on them, is it? Or is this a case where human civilizations in the core compromised some huge majority of the population, so that when the human worlds ratified the compact the alien worlds were forced to go along with it?

In our own history, the US constitution was considered ratified when nine out of the then-thirteen states accepted it. Perhaps it was a similar thing in the Republic? The human civs comprised 75%+ of the territory and resources of the original Republic, so the remaining peoples were brought in regardless of whether they ratified it or not?

Put differently, are you saying that the Galactic Republic was brought into existence without the recorded consent of even one nonhuman on the founding document?

Put that way, it's no wonder that the Republic should become the Empire. The wonder is it hadn't done it much earlier.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

As many people have observed over the years, there's a lot of just plain bad and stupid in the EU. I tend to lump this particular bit of internally self-contradictory idiocy in with the superweapons apparently just lying around in every empty corner, and the hordes of Old Republic Jedi who turn up alive long after RotJ, having survived the supposed extermination of the Order prior to Star Wars, and the exponentially increasing powers of Jedi, and pretty much everything to do with the Fanwankdalorians in the last ten years or so, and... There's just so much of it that's just so bad.

And of course, we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss the idea that the author of "All the Core Founders (meaning the signatories of the Galactic Constitution) were Human" simply didn't know that several of the Core Founders (meaning the planets said dignitaries represented) were actually non-Human worlds.

hamishspence

2015-02-12, 02:56 AM

According to Wookieepedia - it came from the Writers of Inside The Worlds of Star Wars: Episode I:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inside_the_Worlds_of_Star_Wars:_Episode_I

At least - that's what I got when I followed the link on the Core Founders page that mentioned it.

pendell

2015-02-12, 09:41 AM

Chapter 3

Bel Iblis , Wedge, and Corran Horn are dealing with the after math of the initial attack on Bothawui. There are now sixty-eight warships in orbit and more are forming up. A major battle is shaping up here but Bel Iblis and the Peregrine task force aren't going to be allowed to deal with it; it will look like the Republic is playing favorites and choosing sides.

Instead, they have top secret orders to hit Yaga Minor and pull a copy of the Caamas document. Unbeknownst to them, Tierce has already altered the Yaga copy, so it will make things worse instead of better.

But Wedge won't be along for that. Bel Iblis details him and Corran to keep an eye on things planetside. Caamas was destroyed when Bothans sabotaged the planetary shield generators; Iblis expects someone else may try the same thing in return.

X-wing pilots being tapped for counter-espionage? That doesn't make any sense.

Bel Iblis is sending along Corran Horn ostensibly for his smuggler contacts. Riiight. I don't know why he's pretending Corran isn't Force-Sensitive, or pretending he doesn't know, when it's obvious that's the real reason. Especially when Corran lets drop that Booster, his smuggler father-in-law, has been frosty to him ever since the last battle in which one of his ships was impounded. While the ship was carrying no contraband and was pronounced clean, it was still prevented from participating in that particular trade windfall because the locals didn't want even an accused smuggler carrying their precious cargo. Booster will eventually get around this by sending another ship, but in the meantime it's a complication, and he's not happy about it.

At any rate, Wedge and Corran will play spy games .. X-wing pilots trying to be spies on Bothawui. Force-sensitive or no, this should be entertaining.

Chapter 4

Karrde, Shada, and Threepio make their way to an asteroid field to see a local crime lord. Ostensibly, the reason for this visit is to gain safe passage through his territory and avoid complications. In reality, Karrde expects word of his interest to get through to Cardas, and that means Cardas may actually listen to them rather than kill them on sight. That's the real purpose of this mission; to let Cardas know to expect them.

At any rate, they travel to the crime lord, who is described as "cultured and vicious" at his tap cafe. There is a swoop gang guarding it with orders to admit no one. Shada shows her bodyguard skills by subduing three of them, while Karrde takes down the fourth with a bit of misdirection and the well-timed theft of a grapple gun.

The crime lord is suitably impressed and invites them in. Karrde calls in a favor -- evidently in another EU tale, Mara Jade and Lando saved this man's life, so now he owes him. The marker thus called, Karrde leaves with an ID overlay indicating his ship is under the crime lord's protection. When his name is asked, Karrde simply gives it; again eschewing any attempt at misdirection or subtlety, in order to maximize the chance of a welcome at the other end that doesn't involve being blown to bits.

On the way out, Karrde and Shada sniff each other out. Karrde agrees to tell half his story in exchange for half of Shada's. Karrde is leary of Car'das because he once stole something from Car'das which Car'das valued more highly than his life. That's half the story. Shada, for her part, explains she left Mazzic because a bodyguard who is herself a target isn't worth much. Why is she on the run? That's the other half of the story.

Thus intrigued by each other, they push forward towards their rendezvous with Car'das.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gadora

2015-02-12, 11:38 AM

It looks like the tale of Bombaasa's assassination attempt doesn't happen anywhere onscreen. That said, I'm unsurprised to learn that he's a character in West End Game's DarkStryder campaign. This campaign is where this whole sector of space was introduced and it also featured (though did not introduce) the New Republic Defenders that Mara flew down to her accident last book.

Just as a possibly interesting little side note, Zahn wrote the introductory short story that appears in the campaign's boxed set, so he's pulling from a part of the EU that he had a part in, just as he did with the Mistryl.

LadyEowyn

2015-02-12, 02:55 PM

I enjoy Vision of the Future far more than Shadow of the Past. The Luke-Mara storyline in this book is my favourite thing in the entire Star Wars EU, and the Pellaeon storyline is a close second. The interactions and character development of Shada and Karrde are also very good.

Regarding alignment, personally, I'd put Pellaeon as Lawful Neutral (within a Lawful Evil organization) in the Thrawn Triology; there's a decent argument for him being Lawful Good by this point. He's done a good job turning the Empire around. The Empire itself is both protagonist (Pellaeon) and antagonist (the Triumvirate, the Bothawui saboteurs, etc.) in this book, but is being set up so that it can be a protagonist from this point on.

Disra is dumb to the point where it can be either annoying or entertaining, depending on your taste. Most recent case in point: if you're a politician with little-to-no combat ability, don't pull a gun on someone with extensive combat training. His scheme has been falling apart around his ears pretty well ever since he started it, because the combination of Flim as the face of the operation and Tierce as its brains renders him increasingly disposable.

Flim is great fun as a character; it's the combination of his ability to act a perfect Thrawn and then become as unlike Thrawn as it's possible to be the second he drops the act. (Trevor in Iron Man 3 was a character with a similar concept, and also a lot of fun to watch.)

I'd love to read a short story - or even several stories - about Flim's schemes and adventures following the end of this book. Would he have gone to jail? Is "impersonating an Imperial Grand Admiral" a criminal offense? Either way, his con-man career is pretty much dead as the whole galaxy is going to know him as "the guy who impersonated Thrawn" now - he can't exactly be anonymous.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-12, 03:16 PM

LadyEowyn

2015-02-12, 03:18 PM

True, and that could make a fantastic short story too. Flim goes legit.

GAThraawn

2015-02-12, 03:22 PM

I'd love to read a short story - or even several stories - about Flim's schemes and adventures following the end of this book. Would he have gone to jail? Is "impersonating an Imperial Grand Admiral" a criminal offense? Either way, his con-man career is pretty much dead as the whole galaxy is going to know him as "the guy who impersonated Thrawn" now - he can't exactly be anonymous.

I think there's a big difference between knowing someone impersonated Thrawn, and knowing who that person is. And being able to recognize them on sight. I imagine when he takes his make-up and prosthetics off, Flim is totally unrecognisable. I too would love to hear more of his exploits; I once ran a Star Wars RP campaign that went for several years about a crew of con artists and their heists. Its a fun genre: check out "Scoundrels" by Zahn, it's a whole book about Han, Lando and others pulling a long-con.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-12, 03:29 PM

Random off-topic question I just had, but is there any information about how characters date things in-universe? From out-of-character continuity perspective, everything is centered around the Battle of Yavin (BBY/ABY), but does the GFFA even have a unified calendar/dating method?

GAThraawn

2015-02-12, 03:39 PM

Galactic Standard Calendar (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Standard_Calendar)

The Glyphstone

2015-02-12, 04:30 PM

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-12, 05:42 PM

So they use Yavin as their Year Zero in-universe as well.

That is extremely strange. I suppose blowing up the DS1 was a big Rebel victory, but there had to have been Rebel victories before that to hang an entire calendar around.

Not to mention there's no good reason why the EMPIRE would want to memorialise that occasion.

I think the answer is in reality "just justification for the fact that every author in the EU uses +/-movies as the measurement of time because stupidly, no-one ever invented a sensible calandar in the early stages."

Mercenary Pen

2015-02-12, 06:56 PM

pendell

2015-02-12, 06:58 PM

Realistically, the Empire's dating should be from Empire Day , the day in the Ep III novelization when Order 66 was completed and Palpatine declared the establishment of the Empire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo4cFViNLes) to thunderous applause.

... BTW, I don't find the Jedi survivors to be unbelievable. Remember that in the real Holocaust, there were thousands of survivors of the slaughter of millions. And the Jedi have an advantage real civilians don't have , which is a Force which tilts coincidence there way. A few hundred survivors out of an Order which numbered tens of thousands would be entirely reasonable, assuming a 1-2% survival rate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-12, 07:33 PM

I thought there was reference back in the Thrawn trilogy to the historians and/or politicians changing the calendar frequently- about when Luke was trying to look up details on Jorus C'Baoth, or am I wrong in that?

Quite possibly, but that's a cop-out too, really. It would be bureaucratic and administrative nightmare in practise. Imagine if you had to re-write every book, file and date system in the galaxy every ten or twenty years... The work-load alone is basically impossible, let alone the near-infinite potential for abuse and worse, confusion.

No, it is all basically rationalisation because no-one was willing (or, equally possible, ALLOWED) to create a plausible dating system from the get-go. (Which in... actually, pretty much EVERY other sci-fi and almost everything else (with the possible exception of superhero comics) starts with a dating system of some sort.)

Thanqol

2015-02-12, 09:00 PM

Quite possibly, but that's a cop-out too, really. It would be bureaucratic and administrative nightmare in practise. Imagine if you had to re-write every book, file and date system in the galaxy every ten or twenty years... The work-load alone is basically impossible, let alone the near-infinite potential for abuse and worse, confusion.

No, it is all basically rationalisation because no-one was willing (or, equally possible, ALLOWED) to create a plausible dating system from the get-go. (Which in... actually, pretty much EVERY other sci-fi and almost everything else (with the possible exception of superhero comics) starts with a dating system of some sort.)

Okay, well, which planet gets the honour of having its orbital rotation equal 'one year' for everyone else in the galaxy? Try getting that through the galactic senate.

Douglas

2015-02-12, 09:14 PM

Okay, well, which planet gets the honour of having its orbital rotation equal 'one year' for everyone else in the galaxy? Try getting that through the galactic senate.
Coruscant, of course. They managed to settle on it being the capital, they'd have a hard time agreeing to that and simultaneously disputing that it's the most important planet.

Just said that without researching it first, and it turns out I was right (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Standard_Calendar).

Philistine

2015-02-12, 11:14 PM

Not to mention there's no good reason why the EMPIRE would want to memorialise that occasion.

I think the answer is in reality "just justification for the fact that every author in the EU uses +/-movies as the measurement of time because stupidly, no-one ever invented a sensible calandar in the early stages."

Realistically, the Empire's dating should be from Empire Day , the day in the Ep III novelization when Order 66 was completed and Palpatine declared the establishment of the Empire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo4cFViNLes) to thunderous applause.
You know, you could read the article linked above and actually get the answers to your questions, instead of just complaining that things don't make sense to you.

... BTW, I don't find the Jedi survivors to be unbelievable. Remember that in the real Holocaust, there were thousands of survivors of the slaughter of millions. And the Jedi have an advantage real civilians don't have , which is a Force which tilts coincidence there way. A few hundred survivors out of an Order which numbered tens of thousands would be entirely reasonable, assuming a 1-2% survival rate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Jedi also have a major disadvantage that real civilians don't have, namely that the people hunting them are also assisted by the same supernatural Force. Worse yet, the effectiveness of "Use the Force" as a survival strategy in normal circumstances means that Jedi never bothered to learn any others; but after Order 66, using the Force painted a giant targeting beacon on their heads for said supernatural hunters.

Mostly, though, there's the whole "last of the Jedi" thing from the movies, which were explicit about their extinction: "When I am gone, the last of the Jedi will you be," and all that. Zahn got around that in TTT by making C'Baoth both a Darksider and a clone, thus doubly avoiding the contradiction. But as the EU went on, other authors got sloppier and sloppier about it, introducing so many "lost" Jedi that it's an open question whether the Empire managed to kill any at all after the ones who died on-screen in RotS. It might be tolerable in the service of smart, well-written stories; but that doesn't describe very much of the EU at all.

hamishspence

2015-02-13, 03:05 AM

Mostly, though, there's the whole "last of the Jedi" thing from the movies, which were explicit about their extinction: "When I am gone, the last of the Jedi will you be," and all that. Zahn got around that in TTT by making C'Baoth both a Darksider and a clone, thus doubly avoiding the contradiction. But as the EU went on, other authors got sloppier and sloppier about it, introducing so many "lost" Jedi that it's an open question whether the Empire managed to kill any at all after the ones who died on-screen in RotS. It might be tolerable in the service of smart, well-written stories; but that doesn't describe very much of the EU at all.

While Dark Empire II might have started the trend, with a Jedi whose only "disqualifying factor" appears in hindsight (he made himself a monarch, and according to the Code, Jedi must serve, not rule) the computer game Dark Forces II is probably worse, introducing Rahn:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Qu_Rahn

a Jedi, promoted to Master by Yoda during the Dark Times, who does not die till a year after ROTJ.

Later on, we got Old Republic Jedi, not implied to have Fallen, who'd survived to the Legacy era over 150 years after the Clone Wars.

pendell

2015-02-13, 07:46 AM

"When I am gone, the last of the Jedi will you be,"

I'm sure that was true from a certain point of view :smallamused:. It's not as if Yoda and Obi-wan were always terribly precise in their language use.

It's also not as if Yoda and Obi-wan didn't have a history of shading or manipulating the truth for their advantage. In that particular conversation's context, they were attempting to get him to face down Vader and kill him, which Luke didn't want to do.

And Luke called Obi-wan on that in the middle of that conversation. Remember this bit?

Obi-wan: Then The Emperor has already won. You were are only hope.

Luke: Yoda spoke of another.

Obi-wan: The other he spoke of is your twin sister.

...

You see what happened there? Obi-wan just finished telling him he was their only hope, when Luke called him out and made him admit that, in fact, they had another hope -- his twin sister. And then Obi-wan had to do this whole song and dance to rationalize his words.

Ya see, when Obi-Wan and Yoda were telling Luke this, they weren't informing him of facts. They were manipulating him into doing what they wanted, which is to be as heroic as possible, to believe he is the last hope of the galaxy and act accordingly , even if it wasn't strictly true.

So given this fact ... and given that we've already caught Yoda and Obi-wan in lies twice, once about Vader being Luke's father and a second time about Luke being the only hope when there was still a twin sister, I would at minimum take Obi-wan's and Yoda's words with a grain of salt.

Ya see, when I see Yoda say "the last of the Jedi you will be", I suspect he really means "Of course there are a bunch of survivors scattered around the galaxy but we don't have control of them so they don't count. YOU are the one who is doing our bidding, so you are OUR last hope."

--
That's EU reasoning. In the 'verse of the films , there's no reason to believe there are any survivors save Yoda and Obi-wan. But rest assured that if Lucas wanted to write another Jedi survivor into the post-Endor storyline, it would simply be the case that our two Jedi were either A) misinformed or B) flat out lying. And if the second, given they already have a history of exaggeration or flat out lying, it would be no stretch of the imagination.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-13, 08:05 AM

Meanwhile Chapter 5.

Lots of stuff happens here.

-- Han and Leia are on Parrik Major being bored and embarrassed out of their minds at the conference. Next stop, Parrik Minor.

-- The sleeper cell on Parrik Minor gets the word that they are to provide backup for a hit on the New Republic official -- Han and Leia Solo. Evidently the invitation to the conference had been given by an imperial plant specifically to draw a New Republic official as a target for a 'vengeance' terror attack, destabilizing the Republic further. It's just pure clumsy author contrivance will of the Force luck that it's Han and Leia who were caught in the net.

The sleeper team isn't at all happy about this. They have wives and children here, and this means the end of their lives as farmers as well as the loss of the families. Not to mention bringing war, destruction, and death to the planet they've grown to love.

-- Admiral Pelleon is relaxing in an AT-AT combat simulator (who doesn't love a good FPS now and then?) when he gets the word that there is no further contact and, by the way, did he know Thrawn was back. Pelleon is thunderstruck so much that he bursts out: "I watched him die"! (The italics are Zahn's , not mine).

Everything about this stinks and Ardiff tries to get him to see this, but Pelleon completely ignores the question as to why Thrawn should reappear now rather than years ago when his presence would have been useful, or why he should be associated with Moff Disra of all people, and just assumes that he's been rejected because of his peace deal.

It looks to me as if he's feeling a lot of guilt over his choice to surrender and because of that isn't thinking clearly. Ardiff recognizes that such a choice could not possibly be made because of any lack of competence.

*I* think that if Thrawn really had returned, Gilead Pelleon would be the first person he looked up.

We'll leave them to mull over that, however.

-- Nevitt arrives on Bothawui with orders to sabotage the shield generators. They arrive undercover as exotic pet dealers. An insultingly small gratuity to the port official from the dealer's assistant and none from the dealer mark them as small timers out to make a credit but having no idea how the game is played; this is intended to foster an attitude of contempt from the Bothan authorities who will then ignore Nevitt. That works for him. Let them look down their snouts at Nevitt -- when the shield generators come down, they'll be singing a different tune.

Chapter 6
Luke is guided by Child of Winds to Mara and the Qom Jha. The Qom Jha have much to say. Evidently they have been spying on the inhabitants of the Fortress, whom they call the "Threateners", and are evidently allied with the Empire. These Threateners had mentioned Mara Jade as an ally of theirs, which is why she is being held prisoner here.

The Qom Jha want something very simple: The Threateners off this planet. That's it, short and sweet. They had been spying on their plans and had learned something which would require Skywalker's presence, and so had sent a message to the Qom Qae to attach to the outside of a Threatener ship and ride it to the New Republic, where they could contact Skywalker. This had never happened -- Hunter of Winds had deemed this too risky and dangerous. But now Skywalker is here.

The leader of the nestings are called Bargainers. Luke and Mara manage to assuage their suspicions of Mara and put together a plan to infiltrate the Threateners' fortress. Child of Winds volunteers to help. Not to be outdone by their rival nest, the Qom Jha volunteer adult hunters as guides as well. R2 will also come along in case there are any computers that need slicing. With our adventuring party complete, they prepare for the trip, which will probably happen in the next few chapters.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-13, 10:46 AM

It's also not as if Yoda and Obi-wan didn't have a history of shading or manipulating the truth for their advantage. In that particular conversation's context, they were attempting to get him to face down Vader and kill him, which Luke didn't want to do.

Oddly, there's a 1997 Lucas quote that implies that Luke redeeming Vader was their plan all along:

"The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film."
--George Lucas
The Annotated Screenplays (Laurent Bouzerou), 1997

pendell

2015-02-13, 10:56 AM

I have listened and re-listened to their dialog over and over again, and if Obi-wan wanted Luke to redeem him rather than kill him, he did an excellent job of hiding it.

Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

So either Lucas is lying himself (he has a long history of these "it was always my plan to ..." which the screenwriting and verbatim comments don't support) or Obi-wan is playing a manipulative game to convince Luke to do the opposite of what Obi-wan is telling him.

Which cements Obi-wan's characterization as "cunning manipulator" all the more firmly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-13, 10:57 AM

I have listened and re-listened to their dialog over and over again, and if Obi-wan wanted Luke to redeem him rather than kill him, he did an excellent job of hiding it.

Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

So either Lucas is lying himself (he has a long history of these "it was always my plan to ..." which the screenwriting and verbatim comments don't support) or Obi-wan is playing a manipulative game to convince Luke to do the opposite of what Obi-wan is telling him.

Which cements his characterization as "cunning manipulator" all the more firmly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Manipulator? Sure thing, but cunning? Where did you got that idea...

Or wait. You were talking about Obi-wan.

pendell

2015-02-13, 11:16 AM

A joke, but I have rewritten the post to clarify that the "cunning manipulator" line referred to Obi-wan.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-13, 11:32 AM

A joke, but I have rewritten the post to clarify that the "cunning manipulator" line referred to Obi-wan.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

It was perfectly clear in your original post. I just wanted to take a shot at Lucas and his lying ways.

Ways that only serve to cover his own incompetence

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-13, 11:36 AM

You know, you could read the article linked above and actually get the answers to your questions, instead of just complaining that things don't make sense to you.

One, linked after I posted; two, that's still exactly what I was saying, a system brought in to slather over the gaps because out of universe, not suitable system, had been devised and everyone has been using "+/- The Movies" as the only method of time-keeping.

It wouldn't have been necessary to do all the jumping around and twisting in various directions and muddying everything up if they'd just created (or been allowed to create, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lucas had a mandate they weren't allowed to) a dating system from the start.

Maybe that's one thing the new continuity could actually try and do right (though I very much doubt it will do.)

The Glyphstone

2015-02-13, 04:34 PM

I wouldn't be surprised. Lucas had a list of thing that did not exist in his universe, including paper and underwear. A coherent dating system wouldn't be out of place in the forbidden zone.

pendell

2015-02-13, 06:06 PM

Underwear doesn't exist in the GFFA? Whyyyyyyy...?

At any rate, it explains why the dark side is so popular. With those course Jedi robes there must be terrible chafing. Chafing leads to suffering, suffering leads to anger , anger leads to non sequiter, non sequiter leads to the dark side.

...

As an aside, we could play a little game called "six degrees to the dark side". It seems like EVERYTHING in the GFFA leads to the darkside within six degrees.

Case in point: Teddy bears.
Teddy bears lead to attachment.
Attachment leads to passion.
Passion leads to anger.
Anger leads to the dark side.

Presto!

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-13, 06:14 PM

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Underwear

In an interview in London 2008, Carrie Fisher revealed that during the filming of Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope in 1977, director George Lucas had made her cover her breasts with Gaffer Tape. She has been quoted saying, "I had to tape them down, because there's no underwear in space. George knows that for a fact."

I leave any ulterior motives a 33-year old George Lucas may have had for mandating that a 21-year old Carrie Fisher not wear underwear beneath her robes during filming for the speculation of others.

Philistine

2015-02-13, 06:40 PM

One, linked after I posted; two, that's still exactly what I was saying, a system brought in to slather over the gaps because out of universe, not suitable system, had been devised and everyone has been using "+/- The Movies" as the only method of time-keeping.

It wouldn't have been necessary to do all the jumping around and twisting in various directions and muddying everything up if they'd just created (or been allowed to create, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lucas had a mandate they weren't allowed to) a dating system from the start.

Maybe that's one thing the new continuity could actually try and do right (though I very much doubt it will do.)

One, the link was post #85 in the thread, your post which I quoted was #87. So no, NOT linked after you posted. Two, you and Pendell were both complaining that it wouldn't make sense for the Empire to celebrate the Rebel victory at Yavin; the link explicitly states that Year Zero on the Imperial calendar (which appears to have been retained indefinitely in the Imperial Remnant) was in fact the founding of Palpatine's New Order. So yes, whinging about things "not making sense" simply because you had failed to read or comprehend the information already in the thread.

GAThraawn

2015-02-13, 09:00 PM

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Underwear

My goodness that article is a hilarious read. Although it does rather demonstrate that underwear does exist in the Star Wars universe.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-13, 09:31 PM

My goodness that article is a hilarious read. Although it does rather demonstrate that underwear does exist in the Star Wars universe.

Only in the EU, though, not in the movies (because everyone except Lucas realized what a terrible idea that was). So the existence of underwear is now non-canon.

GAThraawn

2015-02-13, 09:35 PM

I leave any ulterior motives a 33-year old George Lucas may have had for mandating that a 21-year old Carrie Fisher not wear underwear beneath her robes during filming for the speculation of others.

I think anyone who has seen Return of the Jedi can answer that.

Landis963

2015-02-13, 09:53 PM

Only in the EU, though, not in the movies (because everyone except Lucas realized what a terrible idea that was). So the existence of underwear is now non-canon.

Someone should totally ask that of Abrams & co., next convention/panel they deign to visit. "Carrie Fisher once stated that "there's no underwear in space" and that "George knows this for a fact." Given the presence of underwear in several EU sources, and the "Legends" policy you're adopting with much of the EU, does this mean that underwear is no longer canon within the Star Wars universe?"

The Glyphstone

2015-02-13, 09:54 PM

Someone should totally ask that of Abrams & co., next convention/panel they deign to visit. "Carrie Fisher once stated that "there's no underwear in space" and that "George knows this for a fact." Given the presence of underwear in several EU sources, and the "Legends" policy you're adopting with much of the EU, does this mean that underwear is no longer canon within the Star Wars universe?"

I would pay money to see this. Lots of money.

Landis963

2015-02-13, 10:51 PM

I would pay money to see this. Lots of money.

Carrie Fisher is planning on attending the Indiana ComicCon...

McStabbington

2015-02-14, 12:38 AM

You see what happened there? Obi-wan just finished telling him he was their only hope, when Luke called him out and made him admit that, in fact, they had another hope -- his twin sister. And then Obi-wan had to do this whole song and dance to rationalize his words.

Ya see, when Obi-Wan and Yoda were telling Luke this, they weren't informing him of facts. They were manipulating him into doing what they wanted, which is to be as heroic as possible, to believe he is the last hope of the galaxy and act accordingly , even if it wasn't strictly true.

So given this fact ... and given that we've already caught Yoda and Obi-wan in lies twice, once about Vader being Luke's father and a second time about Luke being the only hope when there was still a twin sister, I would at minimum take Obi-wan's and Yoda's words with a grain of salt.

Ya see, when I see Yoda say "the last of the Jedi you will be", I suspect he really means "Of course there are a bunch of survivors scattered around the galaxy but we don't have control of them so they don't count. YOU are the one who is doing our bidding, so you are OUR last hope."

--
That's EU reasoning. In the 'verse of the films , there's no reason to believe there are any survivors save Yoda and Obi-wan. But rest assured that if Lucas wanted to write another Jedi survivor into the post-Endor storyline, it would simply be the case that our two Jedi were either A) misinformed or B) flat out lying. And if the second, given they already have a history of exaggeration or flat out lying, it would be no stretch of the imagination.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I do think you're exaggerating, if admittedly not by much. It was always my feel that Luke was caught in the middle of a major disagreement between Ben and Yoda, where Ben was arguing for Luke as the safest bet to defeat the Sith, while Yoda as a extremely long-viewed individual (for obvious reasons) is willing to gamble that Leia or some other potential will come along. That exchange is essentially Luke asking Ben to explain Yoda's position, despite the fact that with Yoda and Ben both dead and Luke very likely heading to his doom, it's fairly clear that Ben had the right of that particular argument.

Fanwank? Yeah, but I try not to go with the prevailing viewthat the Jedi were nothing but dunces, no matter how inept a plotter Lucas might be.

LadyEowyn

2015-02-14, 12:47 AM

On a different topic: the bit in Chapter Five where Pellaeon hears that Thrawn's back and concludes that Thrawn may have simply given up on him makes me feel really sad for him. Pellaeon rarely shows emotion, so it's clear that this had hit him hard.

GAThraawn

2015-02-14, 12:52 AM

Thrawn183

2015-02-14, 01:25 AM

I'm just glad Zahn took a stand against this kind of nonsense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo

Granted, it obviously didn't take, but at least he tried.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-14, 01:47 AM

I'm just glad Zahn took a stand against this kind of nonsense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo

Granted, it obviously didn't take, but at least he tried.

Yeah, I'm very appreciative of Zhan's refusal to give his villains ridiculously large spaceships whose sole weapon is a giant pneumatic hammer.

GAThraawn

2015-02-14, 01:57 AM

Yeah, I'm very appreciative of Zhan's refusal to give his villains ridiculously large spaceships whose sole weapon is a giant pneumatic hammer.

I get that this was meant as a joke, but I do appreciate that, since that is basically what a lot of other EU villains are handed to try and make them credible threats *cough**suncrusher**cough*.

Thrawn183

2015-02-14, 09:19 AM

Yeah, I'm very appreciative of Zhan's refusal to give his villains ridiculously large spaceships whose sole weapon is a giant pneumatic hammer.

*sigh* I suppose I should have seen that coming.

pendell

2015-02-14, 10:17 AM

*Watches the feed*

Well, that completely kills my interest in the cartoon series. The Jedi are just so OP the other characters might as well not even exist.

...

For that matter, if Mace Windu was that good he WAS the greatest Force-Using fighter in the galaxy. The Jedi in Order 66 were mostly taken out by unaided clones who weren't all that much more effective than battle droids. The expectation for OP Jedi are just .. not interesting.

I also don't appreciate that he jumped RIGHT into the line of fire of his clones. That's a good way to get backshot even without order 66.

And I don't appreciate the fact that he made the clones into helpless extras. If Fanwankalorians are a problem, this is why they're a problem -- because other Jedi authors made the common soldiers of the universe completely unimportant. And theirs' is the story I'm really interested in.

At any rate, moving on.

Chapter 7

Leia and Han are flying to Parrik Minor under an assumed smuggler's ID , the better for more privacy. They are jumped by three unarmed starfighters who attack with no other intent but to kill them. Han mans the guns and Leia flies the ship.

They work well together as a team. With some truly inspired flying and gunning, they destroy their attackers , two with turbolaser fire and the third, inadvertently, by ramming.

But this battle comes at a cost. Shields out. Engines out. Communications out. The Falcon has re-entered the atmosphere of Parrik Minor and is making a passable impression of a stone as it plummets from orbit. Leia and Han resign themselves to ending their lives in a crater on Parrik Minor.

Just at this moment, the Imperial backup team arrives ... four TIE interceptors. Their job has been made easy. All they have to do now is sit back and watch the crash to complete their mission.

Chapter 8

Except that isn't what happens. Instead, they use cables and grapplers to mate their four ships to the Falcon, then lower it gently into a field, where the rest of the team is waiting for them. Han and Leia come out warily -- if the Imps wanted them dead, they didn't have to go through the trouble to spare their lives. Perhaps the Imperials believe the children are with them, and this is a kidnap attempt?

Nothing of the sort. The Imperial team welcomes them, and tells them how it is; they've been farmers here for ten years, since Thrawn left them here, and they want to go right on being farmers. And they have to remain in hiding because...

Leia catches on. Looking closely at them, helped by her Force-sense, she realizes that they are clones ... clones of Baron Soontir Fel, a guest star from the X-wing novels. An excellent Imperial pilot who defected but was recaptured by the Empire. The clones don't know exactly what happened to him, but they'd never use him as a cloning template if he wasn't loyal. They don't speculate, but it probably wasn't a pretty process.

At any rate, they are true clones of Fel, and Fel loved the soil more than he loved fighting. A very different breed of cat from Luke Skywalker who couldn't wait to get away from the backwater he was raised in. Anyway, they've been asleep for ten years and they want to go right on sleeping.

Leia's willing to go for it, but Han balks. He wants to make a bit more use of these guys before calling it even. Can the team get them to Bastion so they can get a copy of the Caamas document?

The team doesn't know the coordinates, but there is an emergency rendezvous they can go to in case they acquire vital information. They agree to take Han to the rendezvous.

There is a short argument between Han and Leia over whether she should go as well, but the argument is settled when a shuttle with Noghri bodyguards arrives, with word for Leia from Senator Bel Iblis. He has information of vital importance and is coming to Parrik Minor NOW to discuss it. There is no time left.

Last book we left him puzzling over Vermel's fragmentary transmission describing Pelleon's peace mission. Presumably he and his techs have put the pieces together enough to make sense of the transmission, and they are on their way to that negotiation now. Leia's obviously the better choice for that, and while they don't know that yet they do know Bel Iblis will need a politician. So she stays on-planet while Han and the sleeper team prepare to depart on their own information raid.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Landis963

2015-02-14, 10:23 AM

I'm just glad Zahn took a stand against this kind of nonsense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo

Granted, it obviously didn't take, but at least he tried.

:smallbiggrin: Where's the "ROFL" smiley when you need one?

pendell

2015-02-14, 10:49 AM

:smallbiggrin: Where's the "ROFL" smiley when you need one?

Today's chapter summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18820249&postcount=120), by the way, if anyone missed it.

Thinking a bit more on that... I've finally figured out what's bothering me about that short film. And that is, that if Mace Windu was that overpowered the initial battle of Geonosis shown in Ep. II shouldn't have needed clone intervention at all. There were hundreds of Jedi in that colosseum. They didn't even need their lightsabers. They could have stood back to back and just kept dropping force waves until all the droids were gone. Heck, Mace Windu could have done it all himself. As it were, they were near to extinction before Yoda swooped in with clones to save the day.

The power displayed in the cartoon is considerably greater than that evidenced by the films.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Landis963

2015-02-14, 11:00 AM

The power displayed in the cartoon is considerably greater than that evidenced by the films.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The thing that's so laughable about that sequence, at least IMO, is the OTT-ness of everything. Over the top dakka fended off by over the top lightsaber slashing, temporarily stopped with an over the top hammer, leading into over the top force powers, ending with several over the top leaps across over the top distances, ending with a glory shot worthy of Superman. And that kid bore a distinct thematic resemblance to the "THAT WAS SOOOOO WICKED!" kid from The Incredibles, which only exacerbated the humor.

Today's chapter summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18820249&postcount=120), by the way, if anyone missed it.

Soontir Fel is a boss, BTW, if you've had a chance to read his story. The Empire chose their clone templates well. (Pity about C'baoth, but there are always a few duds).

McStabbington

2015-02-14, 03:09 PM

Beyond the ridiculous over-the-topness of the scene and the fact that, once again, Force mastery is directly equated with ability to do ridiculously large-scale superhero maneuvers rather than with wisdom or connection with the Force, I was more than a little put off by the failure to protect the clones. If the clone troopers are helpless bystanders, Mace, then you don't get to do the superhero post-victory walk into the sunset if you let them all get smashed into jelly by the giant hydraulic hammer. That's you, Mace, failing to be the hero despite your ricidulously OP'ed Force abilities.

I must say though, that one of the things I like about Zahn simply as a writer is that he treads that fine line between giving his characters weaknesses and giving them only informed abilities very well. Here, Han and Leia work very well together as a team, and they do pretty well, but it's just not good enough. We get the sense that in ordinary circumstances, despite Leia not being in her element in starship combat, she's nevertheless not doing anything overly bad or faulty or wrong that causes them to fail. She's not incompetent; she'd just need to be elite to beat what they're facing and survive on her own, and she's not an elite pilot.

Compared with many of the EU writers, Zahn threads that needle of demonstrating competence while nevertheless not being quite enough very well.

hamishspence

2015-02-14, 03:47 PM

Mercenary Pen

2015-02-14, 07:43 PM

Soontir Fel is a boss, BTW, if you've had a chance to read his story. The Empire chose their clone templates well. (Pity about C'baoth, but there are always a few duds).

Correction, Thrawn chose his clone templates well, Palpatine not so much.

GAThraawn

2015-02-14, 10:20 PM

The 2003 Clone Wars cartoon was a rather deliberate exercise in exaggeration. While the events themselves are technically canon, I don't think any of what is portrayed on screen is seriously meant to be taken at face value. The 2008 animated series is a much better rounded look at the characters and their abilities.

Landis963

2015-02-14, 10:20 PM

Correction, Thrawn chose his clone templates well, Palpatine not so much.

Ah. :smallsigh: Much becomes clear.

Ramza00

2015-02-15, 01:12 PM

I have long ago given up on star wars both the movies and the eu, I simply no longer care for it. It was a love of my childhood but it has so many problems I just can't summon the will to ignore so many things anymore. (Combine with the fact as you get older the good things it does do not seem as grand)

I loather Kevin J Anderson for he is a horrible storyteller. Worse even when he disappeared from the EU his stories and power creep still remain.

Yet

Timothy Zahn is just as bad with the force power creep as other EU authors. Here are some Extreme Zahn Force Feats

C'Boath Dominating the entire star destroyer's crew at once in Heir to the Empire (1991), the first appearance of jedi battle meditation in Heir to the Empire with the emperor and C'Boath (1991), C'Boath rewriting people's personalities with General Freja Covell in Last Command (1993) and then result Covell's death when they hit the ysalamiri's bubble for his entire your automatic nervous system just shut down without C'Boath mental control.

These zhan force feats are just as bad as Anderson's throwing a star destroyer fleet several light years away in Darksaber (1995), ripping a spaceship out of a gas giant in Dark Apprentice (1994), or the force storms in Dark's Empire's (1991 to 1992) which can destroy planets but also acting as a teleporting wormhole when used by the reborn emperor.

Lastly depending on how you look at it, you can see other extreme early EU feats that may be smaller or greater than I listed above with Luke's Skywalker being resurrected from death/near death via the force in the courtship of princess leia (1994) and the emperor reborn soul-clone transfer trick (1991 to 1992).

----

The force power creep has always been insane ever since the origin of the EU all those feats happened during the first 4 years.

In Episode IV Star Wars: A New Hope the strongest force displays were extremely subtle. For example if you wanted to translate the force powers into new hope to D&D 3.5 this is what you would get

1st Level Wizard, Unseen Servant
1st Level Wizard, True Strike
2nd Level Bard, 3rd Level Wizard, Suggestion,
2nd Level Wizard Misdirection,
2nd Level Wizard, Force Choke,

and spells I can't think of a good analog so here is me attempting it
1st Level Wizard Mage Armor for Blaster Blocking
4th Level Cleric, Divination, Sensing the death of Alderaan? Is there a better analog? Perhaps the SRD 3rd Level Psionic Power Danger Sense, or Magic of Eberron's 3rd level psionic power Sense Danger (seriously they should have picked a better name since the names are so similar)

As you can see just taking A New Hope we are talking a 3rd or 6th level character, not someone with epic levels for all those EU feats I mentioned that appeared in the first few years of the EU.

pendell

2015-02-15, 01:14 PM

Chapter 9
Han guilts Lando into accompanying him on his infomation raid to Bastion, though of course he won't use that word over an open comm channel. Karrde is mentioned in the conversation.

Unknown to Lando, he's been bugged by a Mystral Shadow Guard, Karoly, Shada's old friend. The Mystral council has ordered Shada hunted down and eliminated, and Karoly is Just Following Orders. She anticipated Shada would try to contact the New Republic Hierarchy, and had staked out Lando for that reason. Believing Lando will join Karrde (though I don't think he will; Karrde is going after Card'as -- how did Lando get separated from them?) , Karoly follows Lando discreetly.

Disra, Flim, and Tierce are putting on their Thrawn act for their third system in a very short time. This system also begs admittance to the Empire, fearing chaos and seeing in Thrawn a worthy protector.

Disra is worried that all this activity will bring the New Republic down on them. Yeah, yeah. No one's listening to him any more. His role in this Triumvirate is to play Crassus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Licinius_Crassus), generating money and resources to be used by others.

During this operation, A squadron of Marauder corvettes (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Marauder-class_corvette) arrives. It's going to take some quick work both to win and to maintain the disguise. "Thrawn's" first move is to dispatch a half-squadron of Preybird fighters for an armed reconnaissance; a preliminary skirmish to determine who it is he's fighting. It's what the real Thrawn would do.

Corvettes ... corvettes... that rings a bell with Disra. he knows these corvettes -- the Diamala own them. He knows this because the Cavrilhu pirates were also bidding for them ,but the Diamala outbid them , no doubt intending to use them for covert operations.

Well, if it's the Diamala ... we know how to deal with them. Tierce looks up Thrawn's last engagement with the Diamala, and has "Thrawn" transmit orders to the bridge to execute the same tactics Thrawn had performed in the last engagement with the Diamala. Upon seeing the actions of the Star Destroyer Relentless (which our villain trio is aboard), the Diamala force instantly turns and flees without a shot being fired. They have learned what they came for. The Relentless has responded just as if Thrawn really was in command and, having seemingly confirmed his living presence, they want no part of a battle with him. "Thrawn's" standing with both the local planet, the Republic, and the Empire is enhanced.

At this point Tierce lets slip that there's a reason why he hasn't been playing the quiet subtle game Disra has been advocating. He is deliberately attracting attention with a Thrawn imposter because he wants to attract the "Hand Of Thrawn", whoever or whatever that is. Once contact is made, this may mean ultimate victory.

At this point Flim wants to know just what the Hand of Thrawn is, since it's the first he's heard of it. The chapter ends with him and Tierce shouting at each other. :smallamused:

Chapter 10

Luke and Mara are travelling through a cave with the Qom Que Child of Winds as well as at least three Qom Jha adults, two of whom are named Splitter of Stones and Keeper of Promises.

Mara makes a snarky comment about dragging R2 along again. She has a point. If they're going to go all these places, can't they get him a walker chassis instead of those wheels?

The Qom are concerned about their ability to make it through the next area. deciding the time has come to prove themselves, Mara and Luke throw their lightsabers and use the Force to guide them, cutting away the obstacles. This suitably impresses the Qom, but Luke is concerned that Mara's technique is a touch sloppy.

They discuss their personal relationship. Luke asks why she didn't stick around. He explains that Luke paid her no attention and lavished in instead on Kyp Durron and other of his students. I think she wanted to be more to him than just another student.

And Kyp Durron didn't work out so well, since the Force Ghost of Exar Kun manipulated into causing a tremendous amount of damage to the Academy. Yavin Four has turned out to be strong in the Dark Side, so why did Luke keep the Academy there even if it was obvious? Mara thinks he's begining to think too highly of himself.

Luke acknowledges that this is true ; he HAS been getting a little arrogant.

These are more other EU references; it may be appropriate to start a drinking game. Whenever Zahn references another story, take a drink.

Luke also mentions to Child of Winds that he intends to TALK to the Threateners before fighting them. He's seen enough death that fighting is a last resort now. Mara agrees with tahat.

They push on into the dungeon and come across a very large, very nasty predator. The adult Qom Jha note that these predators haven't been here before; they must have been imported by the Threateners as a terrain hazard.

This, by the way, is why OOTS 975 final panel (though a joke) wasn't, IMO, entirely fair. In adventure stories, at least since Sauron let Shelob set up shop in the passsage of Cirith Ungol, it's been a staple of villains that they will deliberately populate their strongholds with all kinds of monsters, sentient and non- in order to provide a terrain hazard to adventurers. They are specifically placed not because they are peaceable people living ordinary lives, but specifically because the villain expects them to kill any passerby who don't have the correct passwords. Fighting one's way past such a creature in a dungeon is not nearly the same as a home invasion; it's more like bypassing enemy sentries in war time.

But I digress.

At any rate, the creature is NOT sentient but is very hungry. Showing he is lightsided (and also showing prudence; in real war one doesn't fight any engagements not strictly necessary; in real war there is no XP gain after every battle, only a loss of ammunition, time, and probable death) , Luke and Mara find an alternative solution. They deduce the creature's prey, and provide a big helping of it to the creature. While it is distracted with food, they make their way past, congratulating themselves on a nonviolent solution.

Erm, guys, the *food* was alive, wasn't it? Is it's live of more value than a predators? So I don't think this is really a nonviolent solution; it just means that you're sacrificing prey rather than predator.
Be that as it may, they did get past without making noise or risking their lives (even a stormtrooper occasionally hits something, why take a chance?) , so it's a better solution.

They continue their adventure into the Threatener's stronghold.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-15, 01:16 PM

Zahn's villain feats are kind of epic.

And, for KJA, the Sun-Crusher wasn't even "ripped out with raw telekinesis" - the feat was instead the careful manipulation of the ship's controls, to pilot it out.

He did suggest that heroes - Jedi - shouldn't be throwing around that much power though- in this very duology.

That said - there were some pretty impressive feats even in the Marvel Star Wars comics, before Zahn started writing SW.

Cikomyr

2015-02-15, 03:29 PM

hamishspence

2015-02-15, 03:37 PM

And Yoda's X-wing lift is pretty impressive by D&D standards:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm

Compare to what one might expect a 12m long spacecraft to weigh - a few tons at least.

Ramza00

2015-02-15, 04:22 PM

for C'Baoth, we are talking about a Jedi Master with more than 50 years of experience who is fully powered by the Mad Side of the Force.

Not a bunch of Jedi apprentices with 2 years of experience.

The biggest issue with me and the C'Baoth feats is how many thousands of minds he can dominate at once. There is a limit on how many things the human mind can think about and process. Each of those individual minds will be struggling and resisting him. It is very bad storytelling in my mind if you grant your villain that level of skill and technique to perform such a feat. If you state it is not a question of skill and technique but instead one of power then it destroys the narrative for why does he use such extreme power in situations where that power would easily end any conflict between the villains and heroes. Lets say there is at least 25,000 crewmembers on the chimera why then does he not exercise a similar feat with 20 crew members when doing so is necessary? Effectively he is a walking nuke, but unlike a nuke he can be selective with who he effects.

I do not like this but the other Zahn feats I listed are less bad from a storytelling perspective but even so you are giving your villain too much power and with this power why do you have a narrative for the villain can destroy the story at any time and get what he wants. With the emperor and the death star and battle meditation those people were not trying to resist the emperor like a domination would be. Furthermore the emperor would not be doing conscious control but instead unconscious control trying to speed up things like reaction times, emotional and motivational control and share perceptional information. The human conscious brain has a limit on how many things it can focus on, the unconscious brain with the default mode and the emotional salience brain on the other hand has to process thousands of pieces of info continuously so it is evolved to do this type of thing. Thus at least in my mind the emperor feat makes sense from the story telling perspective but once again you are giving your villain quite a powerful power. Any battle C'Baoth is involved in should be a stomp as long as the differences in numbers are not overwhelming.

And while I am personally fine with domination and rewriting a human mind for a evil jedi master once again this can easily disrupt the narrative. This is why C'Baoth does not develop the power till literally the climax of the trilogy. But it asks the question why have we not see other people use this power anywhere close to C'Baoth, is he just a unique specimen with a talent of mental manipulation and control that no one else has developed?

And Yoda's X-wing lift is pretty impressive by D&D standards:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm

Compare to what one might expect a 12m long spacecraft to weigh - a few tons at least.

The 2nd level wizard spell levitate would be a better example of what Yoda did vs Telekinesis in Empire with Luke's X-Wing. Now the prequels on the other hand is very much telekinesis and some form of telekinesis combine with feather instead of levitate.

hamishspence

2015-02-15, 04:27 PM

The 2nd level wizard spell levitate would be a better example of what Yoda did vs Telekinesis in Empire with Luke's X-Wing.

100lb per caster level:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/levitate.htm

How much do you think that X-wing weighs?

(Also, Yoda definitely moves it horizontally).

Lets say there is at least 25,000 crewmembers on the chimera why then does he not exercise a similar feat with 20 crew members when doing so is necessary?

He does, in Dark Force Rising. From light-years away. That's how he got from Jomark to Thrawn's ship.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-15, 04:34 PM

The biggest issue with me and the C'Baoth feats is how many thousands of minds he can dominate at once. There is a limit on how many things the human mind can think about and process. Each of those individual minds will be struggling and resisting him. It is very bad storytelling in my mind if you grant your villain that level of skill and technique to perform such a feat. If you state it is not a question of skill and technique but instead one of power then it destroys the narrative for why does he use such extreme power in situations where that power would easily end any conflict between the villains and heroes. Lets say there is at least 25,000 crewmembers on the chimera why then does he not exercise a similar feat with 20 crew members when doing so is necessary? Effectively he is a walking nuke, but unlike a nuke he can be selective with who he effects.

I do not like this but the other Zahn feats I listed are less bad from a storytelling perspective but even so you are giving your villain too much power and with this power why do you have a narrative for the villain can destroy the story at any time and get what he wants. With the emperor and the death star and battle meditation those people were not trying to resist the emperor like a domination would be. Furthermore the emperor would not be doing conscious control but instead unconscious control trying to speed up things like reaction times, emotional and motivational control and share perceptional information. The human conscious brain has a limit on how many things it can focus on, the unconscious brain with the default mode and the emotional salience brain on the other hand has to process thousands of pieces of info continuously so it is evolved to do this type of thing. Thus at least in my mind the emperor feat makes sense from the story telling perspective but once again you are giving your villain quite a powerful power. Any battle C'Baoth is involved in should be a stomp as long as the differences in numbers are not overwhelming.

And while I am personally fine with domination and rewriting a human mind for a evil jedi master once again this can easily disrupt the narrative. This is why C'Baoth does not develop the power till literally the climax of the trilogy. But it asks the question why have we not see other people use this power anywhere close to C'Baoth, is he just a unique specimen with a talent of mental manipulation and control that no one else has developed?

Except that C'Baoth - as Thrawn pointed out - couldn't actually control a whole Star Destroyer crew. He at best, could manage to paralyse them and maybe have made get them to go somewhere... But no more than that, for the precise reasons you said: C'Boath simply couldn't think or process that much data to that level. And Thrawn had to point that out to him (because C'Boath was so arrogant that he thought he could) and make C'Boath realise the task was beyond him. (And as I recall, it wasn't even the whole Star Destroyer, but just the bridge crew, as Thrawn call for a relief crew straight away; which he couldn't have done if had been the whole crew.)

As for Covell, a Force Master who has sent decades practising his specific craft being able to delete one person's mind over an extended period of time and contact? Not that powerful. If it was instantaneous, I might be inclined to agree with you; but it was far from that.

Jedi Battle Meditation might arguably be more a superpower - but then again it is also basically a party buff; it's just improving what people already have, rather than direct control (which is much less difficult.)

And none of those is even in distantly within spitting distance of KJA's stuff.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-15, 04:35 PM

Also, he's crazy. While this is a bit of a cop-out, it's also an easy explanation for why he doesn't use his ridiculous power in the most efficient or logical manner - because he is an illogical person, and efficiency is not something he values.

hamishspence

2015-02-15, 04:42 PM

And none of those is even in distantly within spitting distance of KJA's stuff.

There's "Size matters not" as an excuse - but that only works so far.

Young Jedi Knights (Lightsabers) had an even more impressive demonstration of telekinesis - that didn't require a temple, a whole bunch of Jedi at once, or kill the person doing it:

Gazing at the stormy suns, Brakiss raised his arms to each side, spreading his fingers. His silvery robe flowed around him as if knit from silken spiderwebs. He stared into the swirling flares of the Denarii Nova. "Observe, Zekk - and learn."

Closing his eyes, the Master of the Shadow Academy began to move his hands. Zekk watched through the observation port, his green eyes widening.

The ocean of rarefied incandescent gases between the dying stars started to swirl like arms of fire ... writhing, changing shape, dancing in time with the hand motions Brakiss made. The dark teacher was manipulating the starfire itself!

He whispered to Zekk without opening his eyes, without observing the effect of his work. "The Force is in all things," Brakiss said, "from the smallest pebble to the largest star. This is just a glimmer of how Naga Sadow reached out to the stars and delivered a mortal wound five thousand years ago. "

"Could you make the sun explode?" Zekk asked in awe.

Brakiss opened his eyes and looked at his young student. His smooth, perfect forehead creased. "I do not know," he said. "And I do not believe I ever want to try."

Zekk remembered the way Brakiss had enticed him to experiment with his innate Jedi powers, by giving him a flarestick and showing how simple it was to draw shapes in the flames with the Force. Here in the Denarii Nova, Brakiss had done the same thing - only on a scale the size of a star system.

McStabbington

2015-02-15, 07:38 PM

There's also the fact that power creep was written into the OT from the beginning, to the point that Yoda had to explicitly point it out to Luke that the Force was not just a handy new way to lift rocks. The whole point of Yoda's "size matters not" speech is that the Force allows you to do things that are unbelievable, which is a major stumbling block for Luke and a major reason why he walks into the trap on Bespin: he quite literally has no idea just how much power someone like Vader can toss around as easily as you or I can point and shoot a blaster.

That being said, I do feel the need to come to Zahn's defense. While he does show some incredible steps up in power, he also goes out of his way to game out the practical limits of those amazeballs powers. C'boath can seize control of the Chimaera bridge crew, but he can't maintain that control for days on end or wring the necessary information out of the crew needed to replace Thrawn. Other EU writers put no such restrictions on their characters.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-15, 09:10 PM

That being said, I do feel the need to come to Zahn's defense. While he does show some incredible steps up in power, he also goes out of his way to game out the practical limits of those amazeballs powers. C'boath can seize control of the Chimaera bridge crew, but he can't maintain that control for days on end or wring the necessary information out of the crew needed to replace Thrawn. Other EU writers put no such restrictions on their characters.

Exactly my thoughts.

pendell

2015-02-16, 06:55 AM

Chapter 11
Horn and Wedge approach the shield generator on Bothawui. They learn the generator, although plainly visible in the middle of the city, is well protected. The dome is heavily reinforced material with no windows and one door. It is heavily protected by armed guards and automated defenses. There is also a large stack of spare parts and a full crew of technicians on staff ready to tear the entire thing down and put it together again in the space of two hours.

Unfortunately, our X-wing pilots are about as good at covert operations as you would expect; they would be slightly less conspicuous if they paraded around in a dragon costume for Chinese New Year, complete with gongs and firecrackers.
The imperial team, which is also casing the joint, makes them almost immediately. Nevitt hires two Bothan grifters to pickpocket them and find out what they're up to. The theft is extremely smooth -- smoother, perhaps, then taking candy from a baby. A baby, after all, will know he's been robbed and scream when it happens!

Fortunately for our heroes , one Moranda Savitch, at least ostensibly an agent for Talon Karrde, is also observing the shield generator watching for saboteurs the same way Wedge and Corran are. And SHE is a much smoother operator. She deftly pickpockets the Bothans back, scans the ids inside, and gets the attention of our heroes by waving their wallets at them.
Corran and Wedge try to be suspicious, but come on guys; you are babes in the woods. They agree to pool their resources with Miranda, intending to prevent any sabotage to the generators.

The Imperial team is disappointed when the pickpockets return empty-handed, but Nevitt orders the obvious Republic military to be left alone; their chances of spotting the detection team unaided are approximately zero, and making a move on them might very well draw attention. His team is a little worried. He reminds them that if he's making an error, it's easily corrected.

A call comes in from Bothan customs. The "pets" Nevitt and co. are importing are of a species Bothans are highly allergic to, so they are more than happy to get Nevitt down to take them off their hands with all speed. This Nevitt does, still playing the stupid role to the hilt. His plans are proceeding well.
Chapter 12

Leia is met by an unmarked shuttle carrying, not Bel Iblis, but Trustant Ak'la of the Caamasi and Ghent , slicer extraodinaire and cryptanalysis chief for the New Republic, having been hired away from Karrde by Iblis. Ghent has pieced together the intercepted transmission sent in the last book , and learned that Pelleon is arranging a parley at the mining center on Pesitun. When channels didn't work, he was persuaded to forge Iblis' ID and ask to meet Leia that way, assuming Leia wouldn't have time for him. In the nature of techs he has no knowledge of human nature, as the head of cryptanalysis anyone in the republic hierarchy ALWAYS has time for him.

The Noghri are against it; they do not trust the Empire. They say the Empire is nothing but lies and deceit.

In this I believe they are wrong; that was absolutely true when Palpatine was running the show, but Pelleon isn't that way at all. With the death of the Emperor different factions within the Empire are asserting themselves, so the Empire is no longer the Genocidal Lawful Evil of the movies.

At any rate, the Caamasi delegate believes that if there is a chance for peace they must take it. Leia agrees to go as negotiator in place of Iblis. Ghent asks to come as well, and they agree. So our little diplomatic party prepares to meet Pelleon.

...

Are you out of your kriffing minds?

Ghent is head of cryptanalysis. Don't you people know what that means? It means he's probably the most vital military asset the Republic has, even more important than the President himself. You don't just take him along to a parley with Imperials in an unarmed ship, unescorted. Even the most peace-minded officer would be sorely tempted to capture him under those conditions.

But ... that's what they're going to do. I assume Ghent's presence will be critical in some way.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-16, 07:15 AM

Its not like Pellaeon can manipulate naive Leia into handing Ghent over to him...

pendell

2015-02-16, 08:16 AM

Its not like Pellaeon can manipulate naive Leia into handing Ghent over to him...

:smallmad: They couldn't possibly be so ...

oh, oh, don't tell me. That's a spoiler innit? I haven't read ahead so I've forgotten.

...

You have GOT to be kidding.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-17, 08:26 AM

Chapters 13,14

Karrde and Shada emerge into their next waypoint on the way to Car'das HQ and are jumped by a flight of seven pirate Starfighters. Shada mans a turbolaser and the Wild Karrde gives a good account of itself, destroying at least three of them and making it to the local planet. However, the pirates do manage to blast Shada's turbolaser and send her for a swim in the bacta tank.

On the planet's surface, Karrde is 'invited' to speak to the local general in a nearby tap cafe, so he travels their with C3PO and Shada in tow. On their way, Shada asks why they don't bring more people on these little probe parties. Karrde asks if she would consider that a slight on her combat skills. She responds that she's proven her combat skills, and with a larger party they might be able to avoid fighting at all. Karrde (seemingly with a faint smile) says he'll take it under advisement.

The general, one General Jutka, isn't happy to see them at all. Their ID from Bombassa, the crime lord, has done them no favors here. Both he and the local crime boss, a Rodian named Rei'kas, assume he's a mob soldier here to muscle onto Rei'kas' turf. Karrde immediately assumes Jutka is on Rei'kas' payroll, but even if he's honest I can fully understand why he would both know the local underworld players AND not want a gang war in his solar system.

Shada recognizes the name -- Rei'kas was a strike team leader with a slavers group. Good at his job, but also righto, violent, and vicious. No one liked him.

At any rate, the general warns him to bug out as soon as possible, and Karrde doesn't disagree.

After this meeting , a man with the name of Entoo Nee, which sounds suspiciously like a droid designation , chats them up. He offers to take Karrde on a trip to Exocron, Car'das headquarters, on his ship, but it'll have to be just Karrde alone; the ship is a two-person vessel. He refuses to consider providing them the coordinates, and Shada balks at the idea of Karrde travelling without her.

The discussion is interrupted when three of Rei'kas' people stand up from the various tables and draw blasters on Karrde and company.

The tell Entoo to get out of here, which he does with alacrity. On the way out, he tells Karrde to get in touch if he changes his mind. Why do I have the suspicion that was Car'das contact sent to meet Karrde which Karrde just blew off...?

At any rate, the battle is over before it even begins as Karrde's backup crew, which he had already sent down in disguise complete with local costume, suddenly reveals itself, and drawing their own blasters and attacking in melee. One of them -- Xern -- is disarmed and taken alive but the others are all killed.

Shada is infuriated. Not that Karrde brought along backup -- she already said that would be a good idea -- but that Karrde didn't trust her enough to tell her. She makes up her mind to leave his organization soon.

Karrde tries to soothe her back on the Wild Karrde by telling her the other half of his story -- Car'das was a fairly run-of-the-mill smuggler until he and his ship were commandeered by a Bpfassh Dark Jedi -- the same Bpfassh Dark Jedi whose beckon call Luke found on Dagobah in the last trilogy. In fact, the beckon call was to Car'das ship.

When he returned from that adventure, he was changed. He started grabbing more territory and more resources. He poured over maps and seemed to have big, big plans.

Then one day he got into his personal ship and simply flew away, taking his exhaustive library with him, and he hasn't been seen again.

Karrde was a lieutenant in his organization in those days, and when the time came to choose a successor Karrde orchestrated a brilliant coup and took over. Since then , he's had three assassins come after him in Car'das name -- or at least, so they claimed.

The Cardas he remembers was an ambitious man who never forgot or forgave an insult. He assumes Car'das hates him for taking his organization away from him, which he valued more than life itself. He assumes that Rei'kas, as well as Bombassa and others , are all working for Car'das.

Shada (and I, for that matter) question this interpretation. Why would Car'das stop sending assassins years ago, if it was that important? Why would he then leave Karrde alone for all that time?

To me, it seems more likely that if Car'das did this, it is because the organization no longer suited his long-term goals so he simply dropped it to pursue a larger plan.

Karrde doesn't see it that way, which is why he's so nervous about this trip.

At any rate, that's why Shada's along. Shada isn't associated with Karrde so there's a chance that, even if Car'das intends vengeance, he'll let her leave alive with a copy of the Caamas document even if Karrde and all his people die here.

pendell

2015-02-18, 05:47 AM

Chapters 15, 16

Luke and Mara continue through the cave and run into a wall laced with Kortosis ore which shuts down their lightsabers. They nonetheless use the sabers a bit at a time because the major alternative -- grenades -- would be too noisy.

They are set upon by a swarm of 'fire creepers' a swarming predator like fire ants. They quickly use lightsabers and leap to a safe spot, holding each other tightly in place above the swarm.

One of the Qom Jha guides, one Builder with Vines, decides to show off by swooping down and eating some of the creepers. But he mistimes his dive and they efficiently strip him down to bone before Luke can use the force to lift him back out. Om nom nom nom nom.

Luke berates himself for being responsible. Mara berates HIM for once again trying to play omnipotent Jedi Master. She now takes the opportunity to rip into him (and, also, it gives Zahn the opportunity to rip into the rest of the EU). Founding the Jedi Academy on a dark side center? Stupid! Leaving it there once he KNEW it was a dark side locus? Really Stupid! Turning to the Dark Side on Byss in order to tackle the reborn Emperor or whoever that was .. Mara's not convinced it was him? INSANELY UNBELIEVABLE STUPID!

Luke pretty much acknowledges this.

The fire creepers subside, and they resume their work with the lightsabers once small chunk at a time.

Han and Lando travel with Dev Carist (one of the clones-turned-farmers) to their secret rendezvous where Dev hands over the data important enough to warrant this emergency meeting -- a picture of the unknown ship previously seen sliced in to make it look like it is the reason the attack on Leia failed.

This persuades the clone's superior, who instantly fires it back off to Bastion. Or at least, that's where all of us believe he sent it. Han and Lando head off to follow the transmission vector while Dev returns home. Lando is suspicious of course.

Bel Iblis brings Booster Terrik to Coruscant and makes his pitch: He's going to Yaga Minor for an information raid, and he needs an ISD to pull it off. The other ISDs controlled by the New Republic are too high profile for this kind of operation, so he wants the Errant Venture.

Booster bargains Bel Iblis into a full upgrade for the ship not only as fee but as common sense; a single scan will show the Venture is no longer a fighting ship. Iblis agrees -- too quickly, as far as Booster is concerned -- before long they are on their way to pick up a new crew for the Venture and prepared for its refit.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-18, 07:24 AM

Turning to the Dark Side on Byss in order to tackle the reborn Emperor or whoever that was .. Mara's not convinced it was him? INSANELY UNBELIEVABLE STUPID!

The usual reason given by Dark Empire fans:

"why does Luke do what he does in DE?

Oh yeah, to save the galaxy from the World Devastators presently giving Mon Calamari a molecular-level hoovering!"

Cikomyr

2015-02-18, 07:54 AM

The usual reason given by Dark Empire fans:

"why does Luke do what he does in DE?

Oh yeah, to save the galaxy from the World Devastators presently giving Mon Calamari a molecular-level hoovering!"

Did him joining the Emperor actually allowed him.to stop the World Devastators? Did the Emperor broadcasted a.message saying "I will keep destroying everything until Luke Skywalker joins me as my apprentice"?

hamishspence

2015-02-18, 08:02 AM

The Emperor's Force Storm lifted him into orbit (along with Artoo) and into a dungeon ship - which whisked him across the galaxy to the Emperor's lair - where he made Luke an offer - kneel, agree to serve him - and be given full command of the Emperor's forces.

Luke agreed. He promptly took the opportunity to sabotage the campaign on Mon Calamari, and to put the codes for the World Devastators in Artoo, so that when Leia and Han came for him, they could leave with the codes.

pendell

2015-02-18, 09:02 AM

where he made Luke an offer - kneel, agree to serve him - and be given full command of the Emperor's forces.

Except that this is essentially the same offer that Darth Vader gave Luke in ESB -- to join him in overthrowing the Emperor. The alternative was certain death.

Luke chose certain death. And yet he was miraculously saved and wound up saving the galaxy WITHOUT having to compromise with evil.

I suspect that, if it had been Lucas writing Dark Empire , Luke would still have refused to join the Dark Side even if it meant that the World Devastators would destroy Mon Cal. He would hope, instead, that the light side would provide another opportunity to save the galaxy.

That's a theme in the films -- nothing good comes from turning to the Dark Side, as in Ep . III Anakin's joining with the Dark Side brought about the very thing he sought to prevent. And in Ep. V Luke's refusal to join Darth Vader didn't mean he failed to save the galaxy or his own life -- it just meant that he accomplished his aims without falling to the darkness.

Because in a galaxy which is totally controlled by an all-powerful energy field , dilemmas typically turn out to be false dilemmas, and there's never a reason to do evil, only a temptation to do so. The correct answer to a "lifeboat" in which we have 5 people and only room for 3 is to keep all five people in the boat and trust the Force to make it right. He who loves his life will lose it, and he who loses his life will find it.

It's because the Jedi lost sight of that in the clone wars and chose the lesser of two evils in the ready-made clone army that they were destroyed by that self same clone army, while the evil they attempted to foil wound up ruling the galaxy through the Empire.

It's why the Old Jedi Order had to be come extinct. They'd lost sight of what being Light really means. It's not just about stability and order, it's about loving and caring for people, working for the redemption of darth vader through truth rather than manipulating Luke into killing him via lies "for the greater good."

It's another question entirely how applicable that is in the real world. But it's definitely the case in Lucas' GFFA. Dark Empire undercuts some very basic assumptions of the Star Wars universe.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-18, 10:42 AM

It's another question entirely how applicable that is in the real world. But it's definitely the case in Lucas' GFFA. Dark Empire undercuts some very basic assumptions of the Star Wars universe.

And Luke does end up having to be brought back by Leia, and saying that he made mistakes.

It wasn't till very recently (the comic compilation Luke Skywalker: Last Hope for the Galaxy)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker,_Last_Hope_for_the_Galaxy

that there was commentary saying Luke never actually fell at all - he only nearly fell.

pendell

2015-02-19, 09:09 AM

Nearly fell -- is that anything like being mostly dead?

At any rate, next chapters!

Chapter 17

The firecreepers have passed and Luke salvages what's left from the gear Builder with Vines was carrying. Most of it is ruine,d but they are able to grab food bars (secure in metal casings), spare blaster packs, gow rods, and syntherope. The grenades have been rendered useless as the firecreepers munched the detonator casings, and the medpacks are similarly ruined.

The Qom Jha arrive with reinforcements. They push up to the inhabited levels of the tower and notice 20 large power lines, of which only 3 are active. Most likely the remainder are for energy shielding and defenses. If so, this is going to be an extremely tough nut for conventional troops to crack, especially given how much of it appears to be constructed from turbolaser-resistant rock.

Eventually they roll wrong on the random encounter chart and encounter the citadel's inhabitants -- blue-skinned, red-eyed beings, no doubt the same species as Thrawn.

Hope for a peaceful solution fades quickly as the Threateners immediately fire on the party with intent to kill. Luke puts up his "Jedi are here" sign by igniting his lightsaber, ensuring there is no chance this can be written off as an indigenous incursion.

Mara catches a blaster bolt in the shoulder. Luke and the team withdraws, carrying Mara. The Qom Jha scatter in the hopes of drawing the threateners away.
Luke puts Mara in a healing trance in order to assist her in recovering quickly from the wound.

Child of winds also leaves to help the Qom Jha, remarking about Walker of Sky and his beloved companion.

Beloved companion...?

This forces Luke to confront his growing feelings towards Mara, but he's afraid to acknowledge them or act on them. Pretty much everyone he's fallen in love with has a tendency to die (because the EU writers had to keep the boards clear for the main ship) and he had that force vision of Mara lying in a pool.

But he still has those feelings nonetheless.

Chapter 18
Wedge, Corran, and Moranda are continuing to determine if there is someone attempting to sabotage the Bothan shield generator. How can the bad guys do it?

-- Forget the frontal assault. You'd need AT-ATs.
-- Probably not going to be able to suborn the techs, who don't mingle much with the general population anyway. Could something be smuggled in ON the techs, or in a supply container?

Unlikey. The containers are all triple-scanned while the techs are most likely required to change clothes before entering the critical areas.

-- Can't go through water conduits. There are none (so no obligatory sewer level). All water is shipped in and scanned. There IS, however, a main power generator offsite. Where is it and where do those conduits lead..?

We don't know and the Bothan's won't tell us, time for some breaking and entering.

But we've still got a few hours to kill before committing felonies to save the Republic, so the next step is to examine message traffic -- looking for messages from the planet that are less than 50 words and encrypted, the sort of thing that a sabotage team would use.

They do indeed find some messages, but it isn't practical to trace them from either end. What then...? we've confirmed there is a team here. How are they undercover? An apartment would be too obvious -- it would have to be a business so a lot of people and equipment being moved could be covered as deliveries. They hit the web again to see if they can find a list of new businesses in town.

The Imperial team observes them at the comm center, and contemplates vaping them. Again, Nevitt calls it off; they still haven't got a solid lead on the Imps, and killing them would attract police attention. Meanwhile, the plan has been delayed as the Bothans have changed policy: All techs at the shield station will remain in for a week before rotating out. That means it will be another six days until the plan is put into effect. Both the Imp team on the surface and the ISDs cloaked behind a comet in the system chafe at the delay.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Mercenary Pen

2015-02-19, 11:04 AM

Nearly fell -- is that anything like being mostly dead?

In terms of results I'd consider it analogous to nearly finished the massive chocolate gateau- in that the dividing line between going all the way and stopping just short makes very little difference, even if you don't go all the way evil, the simple fact that you went so close has an impact even as not finishing the chocolate gateau doesn't make the calories you consumed coming quite so close to finishing it any less real.

hamishspence

2015-02-19, 02:54 PM

Another parallel might be to Captain Picard in the TNG episode Chain of Command - he nearly broke - but not quite.

According to TV Tropes, in the audio drama version of Dark Empire, there's a theme of Palpatine trying to "break" Luke the same way - turning him into a brainwashed dark side minion.

Emperor: You. Are. Nothing.
Luke: Where am I?
Emperor: Alone.
Luke: No - Help me-
Emperor: There is no one. There is only the Dark Side.
Luke: I... am... a Jedi. Aaaaah!
Emperor: You are not Jedi. You are nothing. You have no name.
Luke: My name - is - Skywalker! AAAAAAH!
Emperor: YOU. HAVE. NO. NAME!
Luke: I-
Emperor: Listen to the Dark Side. You have no name.
Luke: I have... *dully* no name.
Emperor: You serve the Dark Side.
Luke: I... s-serve...

Then Leia comes to the Emperor's ship to rescue Luke - the Emperor orders Luke to duel Leia - and Leia's words help bring Luke back.

pendell

2015-02-20, 08:49 AM

Chapter 19

After waiting for a month and a half, Gilad Pelleon is on the verge of ordering the Chimaera to return to Bastion when a single YT-1300 freighter enters the system and requests docking. It is Counselor Organa Solo, the peace emissary from the Republic.

A historic moment unfolds

With the four TIE fighters riding escort positions on both flansk , the Falcon rose up out of sight of the distant sun, up into the shadow of the Star Destroyer's hangar bay ...

There was a lone figure waiting at the foot of the Falcon's ramp as Leia and the other three started down: a white-haired man of medium height, his face lined with age but with the parade-ground straight back of a professional military officer. He wore the Imperial uniform well, Leia thought; he wore the chest insignia of a fleet admiral even better. "Councilor Organa Solo", he said, nodding gravely as she approached. "I'm Admiral Pelleon. Welcome aboard the Chimaera".

I think that's the most official Zahn descriptive writing we have of the Admiral.

With her are Trustant Elegos A'kla of the Caamasi Remnant and Sakhisakh clan Tlakh'sar of the Noghri.

Pelleon's smile grows just that little bit brittle. An Alderaanian, a Caamasi, and a Noghri .. of all the people of the galaxy , the ones with the most reason to hate the Empire and everything it stands for.

Well, yes. The Empire hasn't exactly been laying out a garden of flowers for the past few decades, and now them chickens are coming home to roost. Yet oddly, this is a hopeful sign as well: If the Alderaanian, Caamasi, and Noghri can make peace with the Empire, the rest of the galaxy can follow suit.

Ghent is with them in an unofficial capacity as well. Leia explains that he is the one who pieced together Vermel's invitation from fragments, on account of his ship being attacked by a Star Destroyer, captured, and dragged away. This is the first Pelleon has heard about this, and a flash of old Empire shows through as he contemplate the fate of those who dared to lay hands on his personal friend. He's going to have a lot of work to do back on Bastion.

Leia invites Pelleon up into the Falcon to conduct negotiations. A gesture of trust. They have flown unescorted into a Star Destroyer, now it's Pelleon's turn to take a risk as well.

He does so.

Discussions begin in earnest. Leia is a terrible negotiator, prepared to leap at the first offer. It's Elegos who gets things back on track -- so are you here to offer your unconditional surrender? Very well, we accept!

Pelleon pushes back. That's not what he's here for. He proposes
1) Confirmation of current bordes.
2) Guarantees of free travel between the worlds of the Empire and the Republic. No harassment, skirmishes, or propaganda pressure.

In exchange, Pelleon offers:
1) The same in return.
2) An end to privateering, provocations, and conventional military operations.
3) If another superweapon is found, the New Republic and the Empire will dismantle it together.

Sakhisakh pushes back: What of the nonhumans enslaved by the Empire.

Pellon promises an end to nonhuman mis-treatment, guaranteed by the right of any member world to secede from the Empire and rejoin the Republic if they don't like life there. The worlds of the New Republic would have the same right in return.

Leia is concerned about the presence of Grand Admiral Thrawn .. is this all some kind of trick? Pelleon explains that he's only heard the rumors himself, and will go to confirm. But his authority from the Moffs is real, so he came anyway in the hopes of getting the peace train rolling, perhaps fast enough that not even Thrawn can stop it. If he has really returned, that is.

At this point Pelleon sweetens the pot -- an offer of the Caamas document from the Imperial archives. They'll need a top-rate slicer to break into special files. ..

Oh, no. OOOOh no. I see where this is going. You are NOT going to take the New Republics Crypt Chief and send him off on a Star Destroyer. That would be like giving Alan Turing to the resistance during WWII! Even if it was needed, the chance of capture and the compromises that would result are incalculable!

But.. that is exactly what they agree to do. That screaming you hear is of a million security officers crying out in terror.

Ghent is given an Imperial navy uniform and a rank of Lieutenant. He and Pelleon depart for Bastion together. Both to acquire the Caamas document, and for Pelleon to find out just what Moff Disra are up to. Leia and the rest return to Coruscant on the Falcon

While on the way, Trustant Elegos politely asks Leia why she made no mention of the provocation that nearly killed Han and herself, or of Han's own presence on Yaga Minor. Yet she WAS willing to give up Ghent. Does she trust the Empire with the life of a random stranger but not her own flesh and blood? Leia needs to wrestle with her conscience about that one.

Chapter 20

Han and Lando have reached Bastion and are posing as Imperial researchers but so far have found nothing. Karoly, the Mystral shadowguard, is disappointed that she appears to have misinterpreted the conversation she overheard and has been brought, not to Karrde, but to the heart of Imperial space.

We see Zothip, head of the Cavrilhu pirates , on the planet in this same city. It appears that a number of different pieces of the puzzle are coming together. Han and Lando see him, conclude that this is the missing link between the pirates and the Empire, and also conclude that they want to avoid him at all possible.

The decoy transmission they used to get Bastion's coordinates find their way to Disra and his co-conspirators, who are celebrating several new worlds rejoining the Empire in the hope of finding protection from Thrawn. Imperial Intelligence shows them the image, which does indeed look like one of the ships of Thrawn's people. But then the shoe drops; these images could not have been taken around Parrik Minor. The star constellations are all wrong; these are two different images taken at two different locations, and the telemetry indicates that the images came from an A-wing or similar and a capital ship, respectively, not a TIE fighter. It is a deception.

Disra launches into a rant on clones towards which he harbors considerably animosity and prejudice. He's been selling them to pirates and using them to fight his battle but he hates them and doesn't trust them at all. We'll see if that comes back to bite him.

In the meantime, it's likely the Republic has followed the transmission to find Bastion's coordinates, and an espionage team has arrived. It has to be espionage and not sabotage because, as Tierce observes, if it was sabotage stuff would be blowing up by now. They put out a security general alarm.

Lando is accompanied by a Verpine and Lobot from his Cloud City days. They are warned of the heightened security and while their support team tries to run electronic interference, Lando and Han begin to quickly make their way back to the Lady Luck.

Karoly, meanwhile, attaches herself to the Cavrilhu pirates, who appear to be attempting to infiltrate Disra's palace in order to have a heart-to-heart chat with him. Somehow I don't think this will end well for their team.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

LadyEowyn

2015-02-20, 02:21 PM

I've just been reading U.S. Grant's memoirs and, as accepting an enemy's surrender goes, this equals or surpasses Appomattox for generosity of spirit (and of terms). Pellaeon is fortunate it was Leia who came to the meeting; I expect many New Republic officials would not have been so friendly.

(Incidentally, ever since I started reading about the American Civil War, Thrawn has reminded me of General Lee. Excellent strategic mind, effective against long odds, inspirational to his men, generally unruffed demeanour and strong sense of personal dignity, and possessing the respect of his enemies despite enslaving people and fighting for a downright horrible cause.)

hamishspence

2015-02-20, 02:42 PM

(Incidentally, ever since I started reading about the American Civil War, Thrawn has reminded me of General Lee. Excellent strategic mind, effective against long odds, inspirational to his men, generally unruffed demeanour and strong sense of personal dignity, and possessing the respect of his enemies despite enslaving people and fighting for a downright horrible cause.)

From the same 2000 interview I quoted earlier:

TFN: You created Thrawn, who is probably considered one of the greatest tacticians of all fiction. The character has built up a lot of fandom over the years. Is Thrawn perhaps a little bit of Tim Zahn that's coming out?

TZ: (laughs) Oh, Thrawn is a compilation of all the military geniuses throughout history. He's the kind of guy I'd like doing my strategy for me if I was in a war and such. Thrawn is fun. In many ways my Star Wars books were like playing both sides of a chessboard: I'd make the New Republic move, then I'd turn the chessboard around and make the Empire's move and such, then turn it back around. And I'm trying to win on both sides, so I'm having both sides try to out-think the other. Now, I know in each given battle or scenario who is going to actually win, because I know the requirements of the storyline. But I have to have both of them trying their best, and both being as brilliant and clever as they can, because that's where the fun of the writing is and that's where the fun of the reading is as well: of watching both sides be very clever. There's nothing more boring than a stupid hero or stupid villain who you could just run rings around because they're so stupid. It's not very realistic, and it's just not interesting for me.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-20, 02:47 PM

So....Thrawn is actually Serpentor?

pendell

2015-02-21, 10:03 AM

So....Thrawn is actually Serpentor?

Thrawn would spend fifteen minutes studying the artwork in Serpentor's study, and skunk him handily. :smallwink:

I've just been reading U.S. Grant's memoirs and, as accepting an enemy's surrender goes, this equals or surpasses Appomattox for generosity of spirit (and of terms). Pellaeon is fortunate it was Leia who came to the meeting; I expect many New Republic officials would not have been so friendly.

Leia is the kind of person who would make car salesmen and realtors rub their hands in glee. Emotional, quick to take the first offer, so concerned with doing right that she doesn't keep the interest of the people she's ostensibly representing. I think someone mentioned earlier in the book what happened when she negotiated with Karrde -- with a little more time he might have owned the New Republic!

(Incidentally, ever since I started reading about the American Civil War, Thrawn has reminded me of General Lee. Excellent strategic mind, effective against long odds, inspirational to his men, generally unruffed demeanour and strong sense of personal dignity, and possessing the respect of his enemies despite enslaving people and fighting for a downright horrible cause.)

Suggestion: Check out Foote's (http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=shelby+foote+civil+war+series&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=19947156917&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4763238709530306171&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_380sa9muze_b) very readable trilogy. It is exhaustive yet well-written.

Minor quibble: Lee didn't enslave anyone. He didn't own any slaves when he was young on account of being dead broke. He acquired slaves when he married a rich wife, which he manumitted (http://americancivilwar.com/authors/Joseph_Ryan/Articles/General-Lee-Slaves/General-Lee-Family-Slaves.html) over the course of several years.

Lee is actually a pretty close match for Pelleon; Lee was , at the very least, not fond of slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#Lee.27s_views_on_slavery) though he was not an abolitionist. He wasn't fighting for the south because he wanted slavery. he was fighting for the south because he considered Virginia his native country, which he would defend against armed aggressors regardless of their rationale. Had Virginia remained in the Union, he would have remained in the Federal army; it might have been he and not Grant who led the Northern armies. The trousers of time have such strange twists ...

Pelleon is much the same; Pelleon wasn't fighting for the Empire because he was a cackling madman who wanted to blow up planets for fun and kick puppies. he was fighting for the Empire because he believed it was the best hope for stability and peace in the galaxy. If it wasn't a morally perfect Empire, A) he was trying to change that since Palpatine is dead and B) He wasn't trying to make a perfect world, just a better one. The Republic wasn't exactly a simon-pure pinnacle of morality itself, as evidenced by the Trade Federation inside of it.

You can't make peace with a Palpatine. But what if Palpatine is dead and Pelleon is running the show..? Is the Empire really just the legs and arms of one man, or is it a polity composed of billions of sentient beings, some of whom are very much not evil?

Come to think of it, both Pelleon and Lee were white-haired; is that where Zahn is going with this?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-21, 10:28 AM

Chapters 21-22.

Lando , Lobot, and Han are spotted by a security team. They hustle into a sabacc tournament, where Lando creates a diversion by shooting a hole in the ceiling. The security people charge in, fixated on him, and Han takes them by surprise, subduing one barehanded and shooting the second with the first's stunner. They then take their leave as quickly as possible.

Disra is having a very unpleasant interview with Admiral Pelleon. He is called out by Major Tierce, who steps in to 'entertain' the Admiral while Disra consults with Flim. Imperial security has identified Lando and Han in the capital and are now starting to close in.

Disra wants to put a ring of troops around their ship. Flim demurs -- if they go back to the ship and find stormtroopers there, they will simply find another way off planet. No, we need to think why they are here and how they intend to accomplish whatever they've got in mind.

What else could they be here for but the Caamas document? But that would require a slicer, and neither of them is a slicer. Lobot isn't either, but he does have an implant -- the light goes on over Flim's head. He orders the Imperials to scan for Verpine biocomm signals.

It seems he's encountered a similar trick before -- a verpine interfaces with a human through his implant and is then able to slice into a computer by using the implanted subject as a puppet.

Flim is actually showing some Thrawn-level skill here. He may not have his military genius or strategic ability, but he does have Thrawn's ability to read people. That makes him about half the being Thrawn was, I think, but he and Tierce together are proving a formidable combination.

They need Tierce to do more tactical thinking on this, so Disra goes back down to see Pelleon and send Disra up. While this is all happening, Zothip and the Cavrilhu pirates, shadowed by Karoly, enter Disra's personal suite and set up an ambush for him.

Han and Lando see Lobot twitching and jerking for no apparent reason -- the Imperials must be scanning for verpine biosignals. Having arrived at this conclusion, Lando hurries to the nearest droid shop and, under cover of testing a unit he wishes to buy, sets an R2 to broadcast on those frequencies, blanketing them with noise and foiling an Imperial attempt at tracing their signals.

Disra has just returned to speak with the Admiral when Zothip calls him from his own personal quarters. Disra hurries off to deal with this, leaving Pelleon and his subordinate, Commander Dreyf seemingly of securiy, alone in Disra's personal quarters.

...

Alone in his personal quarters.

Happily, Dreyf has a level or two in rogue. It takes a minute (less than a turn) to find a secret drawer in Disra's desk. And, happily, he's also sloppy with password protection. Within minutes Pelleon and Dreyf have possession of all kinds of useful information -- the details of Disra's shady dealings, and the location of Vermel's prison. It's possible all of Disra's schemes have just been laid bare.

Well if that is so, he's still governing the planet. There's no way to conceal the breakin, so they swipe the cards and make a very hurried exit to the Chimaera. Their next stop is to find Colonel Vermel and free him; any Imperial navy officer is going to have a hard time saying no to the Supreme Commander in person.

No indication what Ghent is up to. Is he on Bastion?

Disra, Tierce, and Flim come up with a plan to deal with Zothip. They intend to go in and use "Thrawn" as a bluff to entice Zothip with opportunities. Meanwhile, Karoly has killed Zothip's backup waiting in ambush. Evidently the Cavrilhu pirates had murdered several Mystral, and the Mystral pay blood for blood.

The negotiation does not go well. Zothip blusters, threatens, and then triggers the ambush. This does not go well. Between Tierce's quick reflexes and a shadowguard attacking from behind, Zothip's party are efficiently dispatched. The only one still standing is Control, Zothip's second, unarmed and obviously surrendered.

Flim figures it out. Control anticipated this outcome and manipulated it. he's had his eye on the top spot all along, and realistically a person stupid enough to try assassinating a Moff in his own palace for no reason other than personal pique is probably not the Cavrilhu pirates need as their boss. Zothip was violent, but not smart. The only reason he's survived as long as he has is because Control has been carrying him. That time is now ended.

Control negotiates quickly. Control is much smarter than Zothip, and is unimpressed by "Thrawn's" pitch. Control wants the pirates out; they are taking too many of the risks. In exchange they will surrender control of the preybird production line to the Empire. So everyone goes away somewhat happy. Control won't get the benefits of working with "Thrawn" , but he also doesn't get the risks either. Disra orders him out of Imperial space, and Control complies forthwith. I think that's the end of their part in this story, and good riddance.

"Thrawn" acknowledges Karoly as a Mystral shadowguard, playing Thrawn-omniscience to the hilt. "Thrawn" makes his pitch to Karoly. He had said he needed allies, but he had known a mystral shadowguard was in the room and had not once mentioned the pirates -- he was talking about her. Tierce leaves them as "Thrawn" goes into his full sales pitch.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cristo Meyers

2015-02-21, 11:06 AM

Minor quibble: Lee didn't enslave anyone. He didn't own any slaves when he was young on account of being dead broke. He acquired slaves when he married a rich wife, which he manumitted (http://americancivilwar.com/authors/Joseph_Ryan/Articles/General-Lee-Slaves/General-Lee-Family-Slaves.html) over the course of several years.

Lee is actually a pretty close match for Pelleon; Lee was , at the very least, not fond of slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#Lee.27s_views_on_slavery) though he was not an abolitionist. He wasn't fighting for the south because he wanted slavery. he was fighting for the south because he considered Virginia his native country, which he would defend against armed aggressors regardless of their rationale. Had Virginia remained in the Union, he would have remained in the Federal army; it might have been he and not Grant who led the Northern armies. The trousers of time have such strange twists ...

Pelleon is much the same; Pelleon wasn't fighting for the Empire because he was a cackling madman who wanted to blow up planets for fun and kick puppies. he was fighting for the Empire because he believed it was the best hope for stability and peace in the galaxy. If it wasn't a morally perfect Empire, A) he was trying to change that since Palpatine is dead and B) He wasn't trying to make a perfect world, just a better one. The Republic wasn't exactly a simon-pure pinnacle of morality itself, as evidenced by the Trade Federation inside of it.

You can't make peace with a Palpatine. But what if Palpatine is dead and Pelleon is running the show..? Is the Empire really just the legs and arms of one man, or is it a polity composed of billions of sentient beings, some of whom are very much not evil?

Come to think of it, both Pelleon and Lee were white-haired; is that where Zahn is going with this?

When you spell it out that way, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to find that it was intentional.

Suggestion: Check out Foote's (http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Volumes-1-3-Box/dp/0394749138
) very readable trilogy. It is exhaustive yet well-written.

Link's broken. I'm just getting a 404.

pendell

2015-02-21, 12:29 PM

When you spell it out that way, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to find that it was intentional.

Link's broken. I'm just getting a 404.

Corrected. (http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=shelby+foote+civil+war+series&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=19947156917&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4763238709530306171&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_380sa9muze_b). Try 'er now.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

McStabbington

2015-02-21, 06:31 PM

{Scrubbed}

pendell

2015-02-22, 08:01 AM

I don't know what Mcstabbington said but I feel kinda guilty , as if I'd provoked his response. Mcstabbington, if you wanna try again in PM, I'll listen.

At any rate , Chapters 23 and 24

Disra discovers Pelleon has stolen ALL the details of ALL his schemes, and starts to panic. Tierce proposes they reveal "Thrawn" openly, take command, and say that everything done has been done at his direction. Given the choice between Pelleon and Thrawn, the rest of the Empire will fall in line quickly.

Also, they learn the location of Han's ship from Karoly who had stowed away on it, and prepare to negotiate with the Mystral. They lay their plans quickly.

That's why when Han and Lando get back to their ship they are ambushed by several squads of stormtroopers and "Thrawn". "Thrawn" has Tierce hand over a datacard which ostensibly contains the Caamas document , no doubt doctored heavily to make the situation worse.

Han questions "Thrawn" about the nightstingers used as an imperial provocation in the riot he and Leia were caught in. On the spot like this, Flim outright lies; he claims the last nightstingers were stolen from an armory by Fey'las personal guards. This is not only a lie, but it's one that can be verified, which means he will be caught out, but he's out of options. As Tierce points out, he can't be giving over the Caamas document in one hand and fomenting riots with the other, so a lie was necessary and there wasn't anything else to say. Hopefully they can ignite a civil war and make all that irrelevant before it happens. The lie only has to hold up for long enough.

Meanwhile, having seen seemingly omniscient "Thrawn" three steps ahead of them at all juncture, Han is now totally convinced that Thrawn is alive and with the Empire. They head back towards Coruscant carrying this information and the Caamas document, two parts of an information time bomb which may ignite the galaxy.

The Wild Karrde arrives at Exocron and lands without incident. Entoo Nee greets them and leads them to meet Jorge Cardas. The man appears to be in the grips of dementia and senility, unable to remember anything for more than a few minutes, completely forgetting who Karrde was or why that ... or anything .. was important.

I've lost family to dementia. The reading is painful for me.

Karrde concludes there is nothing for them here, and orders his ship to prepare to leave. We're done here. Except ... there is an additional problem. It seems the crime lord Rei'kas tracked the Wild Karrde here and has arrive with a pirate fleet, intent on sterilizing the planet. Evidently HE believes that Cardas is still in the crime lord business and has come to rub out his competitor. This is why Entoo Nee wanted Karrde to come with him in his two-person ship, which would not have been tracked to Exocron. But now the pirates are here, facing a token orbital defense fleet, and they appear quite prepared to kill us all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

McStabbington

2015-02-22, 06:00 PM

It's cool, Pendell. I really should have let my own personal burr about the ACW simmer and calm down before I posted anything. It was my own fault.

In the meantime, I do think part of the situation that has been bugging me about these books is that I'm not sure what our villains' endgame really is. Thrawn was a terrifying villain in no small part because he legitimately could threaten the fledgling Republic despite being outnumbered and outgunned. Now . . . I'm just not sure what Disra intended to accomplish by bringing Flim and Tierce into this project. Even if they succeed in their wildest hopes, what they've done is bring down the Republic. There is a profound, incredible difference between bringing down the Republic and restoring the Empire, one which is measured in what is quite possibly decades of ship construction and hoarding of materials for a new offensive. And surely Tierce, Flim and Disra are smart enough to realize that.

It just occurs to me that this would have been a stronger book if Disra's plan had been about agreeing with Pellaeon in principle, but disagreeing in whether they need to begin negotiations now or go forward with this gambit. If that were the game, it would make sense, because this is a high-risk, high-reward bit of chicanery: if it goes undiscovered, they can watch the Republic self-destruct, buy themselves years of relative peace to rebuild, and still negotiate on even better terms with the eventual winner. On the other hand, if they do discover Imperial involvement, then they've got one last reason to unite to smash the Empire altogether. This would make Disra and Pellaeon both smart, both capable, but disagreeing on how best to end the war. As it is, without a clear endgame, it just strikes me that Disra and Tierce are move-to-move smart, but strategically stupid.

Thanqol

2015-02-22, 07:05 PM

pendell

2015-02-23, 05:29 AM

It's cool, Pendell. I really should have let my own personal burr about the ACW simmer and calm down before I posted anything. It was my own fault.

Excellent. And I apologize if that came across as Lost Cause propaganda. Again, it's the same as with Pelleon -- however honorable he is, and whatever his intentions were, we have to recognize that the Empire was not just evil, but genocidally so when he was serving it. The Turtledovish alternate history where the south somehow becomes a utopia if it wins the war is naive in the extreme -- a topic which might be discussed in another thread, or another board.

That's the complexity of real life. Good men serve bad causes , and bad men serve good ones, and sorting out black from white is tricky. It may seem easy to *us* hundreds of years later, but it clearly wasn't back then. There were millions of men on both sides who thought of themselves as upstanding citizens doing their duty. Yet this duty meant killing millions of other men not all that different from themselves.

What can I say? Humans are crazy?

As it is, without a clear endgame, it just strikes me that Disra and Tierce are move-to-move smart, but strategically stupid.

That kinda looks where Zahn is going with this; this is the tragic flaw of the villains of this story. They are tactical thinkers, but they do not possess genius for petit strategy or grand strategy. They're like a chess player who can see only one move ahead, making moves which seem advantageous in the short run but in the long run are disastrous.

Actually, Disra is a little bit better about this than Tierce is -- he recognizes that winning over a system or two isn't worth the risk of drawing attention and ending their scheme early. But even Disra simply can't read the writing on the wall.

Although -- actually there's a case to be made, from a military perspective, that Disra might actually be right and Pelleon wrong. Remember that we just saw in the last chapter that the Empire may actually have considerably more territory and resources than the eight sectors they know of. Even Pelleon might suddenly change his mind about the wisdom of surrender if he suddenly had fifty new sectors worth of assets.

Then again , there's another factor at work, too: The Samson option.

Nevitt -- the Imperial sabotage team leader -- seems to be well aware that his actions won't change the course of the war but is more than content to destroy the Republic as well as one last act of Vengeance. In an old tale, Samson was a character who was taken prisoner by his enemies and paraded in their temple. He had such strength that he pushed down the temples' pillars, bringing down the roof, killing himself and all his enemies as well.

If I can't win, I'll make sure everyone else loses. It's a last gasp of petty hatred and spite from someone who so hates his enemy that he's willing to give his life just to cause his enemy more misery. Maybe that's related to 'schadenfreude'?

Wait wait wait... d' you suppose THAT is what "Vengeance" means? The name of the so-called opposition movement Nevitt is pretending to be is called "Vengeance". A hidden meaning, perhaps -- it's not Vengeance for Caamas, it's Vengeance for the Empire!

Come to think of it .. isn't that what Mara's last command was in the last few books? The Emperor may have died, but his vengeance would pursue his killer beyond the grave. Maybe that's what this is about? The last throes of a dying Empire trying desperately to take the rest of the galaxy with it?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-23, 05:31 AM

Chapters 25, 26.

Booster Terrik and Bel Iblis are outfitting the Errant Venture for her journey. Republic warships are gathering as well.

Bel Iblis explains the plan: The Errant Venture will arrive and request docking clearance. Shortly afterwards, the rest of the task force will enter and stage a diversionary assault on the planet. This will distract the enemy from the Venture, which will use an external terminal interface to access the research network and download the necessary information. After this, the Errant Venture's disguise will be blown. We will transmit the information to the fleet. But then ... the Errant Venture will be in the middle of one of the most heavily defended installations in the galaxy, with a blown cover, and the diversionary assault will undoubtedly be defeated. Iblis, who will be aboard the ship, will attempt to surrender when the situation becomes hopeless. If not... then the Empire blasts the ship into oblivion, along with everyone aboard.

That's why Iblis will be aboard. It's the critical point of the battle where his presence is most needed.

Ghent is escorted to his workroom which has a lot of really nice gear. He has a small geekgasm, completely ignoring his escort as he dives into his toys.

Wedge, Corran, and Moranda visit businesses. Corran's straight back frightens a number of less-lawful workers, and the Imperial pet store shows up on their short list of suspicious places. They are in the store when the call comes in from the Bothans.

The six days mentioned earlier is up. The Imps dusted the entering Bothan techs with metalmite eggs, and several hours later they get a panicked call on the issue. Metalmites really will wreck everything if not stopped. Nevitt and team volunteer their services as pest control.

They are admitted after heavy screening. They carefully lay chemical trails and do a competent job of exterminating the mites, but during the process they also perform their sabotage -- leaving small amounts of food paste in the most critical system components.

Food paste ... they must somehow be expecting to sic varmints of some kind on the facility. The varmints will eat the food and the shield generator components with it. Most likely it will be those nasty "pets" the team brought, as there's no other reason for a pet store to bring a species Bothans are allergic to. It harms their cover, which is one reason why they have to pretend to be so stupid.

But how will they get in? No water lines, so that means power conduits or the front door, since there are no other doors and no windows. Probably the power lines, because the Bothans can simply slam the door shut if the front door is used.

When the shields go down the cloaked destroyers will open fire on the planet, destroying as much as they can. These shots, which will seem to come from the gathering warships overhead, will spark a general battle and begin the collapse of the Republic.

At any rate, having had their republic visitors who were their when the call came in from the Bothan shield generator, the Imp team concludes that the Republic agents are perilously close to detecting them, so they determine to eliminate them that night.

Corran, Wedge, and Maranda have come to essentially the same conclusion -- that call was from someone of very high authority in charge of something critical, and only the shield generator in town matches that profile. The pet store jumps to the top of their list.

Just as they begin to make plans, they get a coded message telling Wedge and Corran to abort their missions and rendezvous with the fleet -- something more important has come up. Being good little boys, they comply. Maranda stays behind to do the op on her own ; probably just as well, the x-wing pilots have been liabilities so far.

Luke and Mara discuss events in the tower. During this time, they also take some time to do some relationship building. Luke offers to use Jedi techniques to unlock her buried memories, since she seems to have no memories of anything before her time in Imperial service. There are a lot of back and forth. Mara talks about his interest in previous woman but inability to commit to them, Luke asks pointed questions about Lando. Mara explains that her time with Lando was at Karrde's order for a mission; the 'romance' with Lando never existed. There's nothing between them.

Confession, apology and forgiveness, Zahn notes, are vital to any long-term relationship, having done this, Luke and Mara have a much stronger bond than before.

So... what next?

Reconnoitering. They're going to scale the tower and go in through the roof.

This they do, discovering a command center with Imperial equipment and Imperial maps, with a star destroyer captain's chair overlooking all .They confirm that this place has a link with the Empire.

The map, however, is disturbing. It is almost identical to the map seen in Palpatine's throne room on Wayland, but where that map showed white stars for the Unknown regions an entirely new area has been colored in. Approximately thirty sectors, four or five times the size of the current Empire.

Mara guesses that this is what Thrawn was doing; He had been 'banished' from court for ostensibly political reasons to a 'mapping expedition' in the Unknown Regions, but what he was actually doing, with the assistance of the Emperor, was carving out a larger Empire.
*Does a quick check* here (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire). If I'm reading this right, there appears to be one senator from one sector in the Old Republic, and there were thousands of senators. So this doesn't mean that the Empire has a war-winning advantage, but if this region links up with the Imperial Remnant within the Old Republic's borders the war will be greatly prolonged -- and the Republic still might not win.

So what next?

Mara volunteers to go down and talk to them. She notes they didn't fire on her even if they fired on Luke, and while they did have an armed encounter earlier the aliens had not, in fact, been firing at the humans --- only at the Qom Jha. So perhaps they can be reasoned with.

Also, evidently the Threateners have been talking about her specifically.

Luke tries to follow her through the force as she goes downlevel and surrenders to the Threateners. Then, abruptly and without any warning whatsoever, her force connection suddenly vanishes.

We're meant to think she's dead ... but I suspect Ysalamir. If she'd been killed you would expect some anger, hostility, emotions consistent with battle and combat. You could also expect Mara, even armed only with a blaster, to give a good account of herself. For her to so suddenly disappear without any hostile context implies she's just stepped out of the Force -- which means a force-empty bubble, which means the Ysalamir.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gadora

2015-02-23, 02:07 PM

Cikomyr

2015-02-23, 02:53 PM

Okay. I need an answer.

What is the size of the Republic, in term of % of the Galaxy? We can include the.Old Republic in that discussion, for that matter.

Because apprently, the so-called galaxy-spanning.government body keep discovering massive (HUUUUGE) Empires on its doorstep. The Old Republic's Sith Empire, or the Chiss Empire..

I mean, is it just that the Republic has some sort of natural borders and is so inwardly focused that it doesnt care about whats beyond its own borders?

pendell

2015-02-23, 03:58 PM

Just want to point out that Ghent's been put in the civilian research section that Iblis was talking about venting into space.

Got it. I missed that. So.. we'll have to stop Iblis from doing that, then.

Because apprently, the so-called galaxy-spanning.government body keep discovering massive (HUUUUGE) Empires on its doorstep. The Old Republic's Sith Empire, or the Chiss Empire..

Had a look at the download section (http://wrvh.home.xs4all.nl/galaxymap/#download) of this site for maps. The author specifically requested no hotlinking, and I will respect that wish.

It appears that the Republic/Empire consists, for the most part, of the inner core of the galaxy, about 40% of the total space. That's a bit misleading because the stars in that area are much more densely packed than out along the arms, so the Republic/Empire appears to contain the overwhelming majority of the galaxies stars, and therefore both it's population and resources. It does not contain the deep core, which is almost unnavigable, although Palpatine did have a base there.

Outside the core is the outer rim, which appears to contain about another 10-20% of the galaxy. Beyond that are the unknown regions. While it is small compared to the Republic, and stars are more sparse out there on the arms, there is a LOT of empty areas in that map, more than enough to fit a warlike interstellar nation or fifty.

Then, too, astrography (just made up the word) in the GFFA isn't a matter of space, but of navigable hyperspace routes. The real map of the galaxy would be a graph of nodes and edges , where the edges comprise the major hyperspace routes such as the Perlemian Trade Way , and the nodes would be the major planets of the core.

So it's not just a matter of simply looking at a star and hyperspacing to it; that is almost certain death. Instead, new hyperspace routes must be mapped. Since there is so much wealth already in the New Republic and the unknown regions relatively empty, mapping new hyperspace routes to the unknown worlds is low profit and high risk. So it's not surprising that it's done primarily by the desperate or by the government out of curiosity. There's no real financial incentive to go there, any more than there would be to move to Siberia.

No reason, that is, until some warlike nation trying to find its way into the rich core from the unknown regions succeeds in mapping a route that leads to the Republic. And suddenly we're confronted with another invasion/trade opportunity/diplomatic settlement.

ETA: Here's Another map (http://www.jediholo.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/273-01-galaxymap.jpg). It looks like the Chiss Ascendency is about 25% of the size of the Republic, and there is still a lot of empty space out there.

ETA: Map 3 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy?file=MainGalaxy.png).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-23, 04:10 PM

It appears that the Republic/Empire consists, for the most part, of the inner core of the galaxy, about 40% of the total space. That's a bit misleading because the stars in that area are much more densely packed than out along the arms, so the Republic/Empire appears to contain the overwhelming majority of the galaxies stars, and therefore both it's population and resources. It does not contain the deep core, which is almost unnavigable, although Palpatine did have a base there.

Outside the core is the outer rim, which appears to contain about another 10-20% of the galaxy. Beyond that are the unknown regions. While it is small compared to the Republic, and stars are more sparse out there on the arms, there is a LOT of empty areas in that map, more than enough to fit a warlike interstellar nation or fifty.

Then, too, astrography (just made up the word) in the GFFA isn't a matter of space, but of navigable hyperspace routes. The real map of the galaxy would be a graph of nodes and edges , where the edges comprise the major hyperspace routes such as the Perlemian Trade Way , and the nodes would be the major planets of the core.

So it's not just a matter of simply looking at a star and hyperspacing to it; that is almost certain death. Instead, new hyperspace routes must be mapped. Since there is so much wealth already in the New Republic and the unknown regions relatively empty, mapping new hyperspace routes to the unknown worlds is low profit and high risk. So it's not surprising that it's done primarily by the desperate or by the government out of curiosity. There's no real financial incentive to go there, any more than there would be to move to Siberia.

No reason, that is, until some warlike nation trying to find its way into the rich core from the unknown regions succeeds in mapping a route that leads to the Republic. And suddenly we're confronted with another invasion/trade opportunity/diplomatic settlement.

Wookieepedia also has various maps, taken from the published book The Essential Atlas.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Essential_Atlas

The images page should have maps for most of the interesting time periods.

The Endnotes for the Essential Atlas:

http://geekosity.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/endnotes-for-star-wars-essential-atlas.html

discuss lots of things - beginning with how they got the number of member worlds in the Empire in the first place.

After the first NJO book came out, the galactic map was revised somewhat from its description in Hand of Thrawn - to make the Republic/Empire control most of the galactic disc, with the Unknown Regions all on one side of it. This was eventually explained by there being a "hyperspace anomaly".

Since there was still plenty of unexplored spherical halo region above and below the Galactic Plane, the Empire still only controlled a small portion of the galaxy by volume - but the halo has very few stars, most of which are concentrated in globular clusters (which aren't very good places to support habitable planets anyway).

Cristo Meyers

2015-02-23, 04:20 PM

It's also worth pointing out that the EU drew heavily from the West End Games Star Wars RPG setting material, so at the time the actual explored area was a slice of the galaxy that only amounted to something like 10%(?) of the known galaxy. There was far, far more unexplored territory than explored.

This, of course, changed as time went on.

hamishspence

2015-02-23, 04:30 PM

pendell

2015-02-23, 05:16 PM

Indeed. I remember some of the pre-WEG material (the Lando books and some of the movie novelizations) implying the Empire is only a small part of the whole galaxy too. Then the Centrality was clarified to be a small autonomous region.

That can be partially rectified by considering the small bit at the core as the 'Empire proper' while the outside areas would be 'territory' -- belonging to the Empire/Republic, but not fully incorporated.

For instance, The Falkland Islands are part of the United Kingdom, but when people think of the UK they don't usually think of a pile of rocks off the shore of South America. They're thinking of London, Glasgow, et al.

Actually, the 19th century British Empire may be an excellent analog. While "British soil" existed in places as far-flung as Sudan, Hong Kong, Calcutta, and Ottawa, what *most* people think of as the UK would still be the island off the coast of France.

Perhaps there's a similar dynamic in play -- the Republic flies its flag over a large expanse of the galaxy but the cultural heart and center of the Republic is Coruscant.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-23, 05:21 PM

I could see a large portion of the 1 million-odd "full members" being in the Core and surrounding areas, even if not all.

The population density map is certainly heavily concentrated that way, with only a few dense spots in the Rim.

russdm

2015-02-24, 01:14 AM

Pelleon is much the same; Pelleon wasn't fighting for the Empire because he was a cackling madman who wanted to blow up planets for fun and kick puppies. he was fighting for the Empire because he believed it was the best hope for stability and peace in the galaxy. If it wasn't a morally perfect Empire, A) he was trying to change that since Palpatine is dead and B) He wasn't trying to make a perfect world, just a better one. The Republic wasn't exactly a simon-pure pinnacle of morality itself, as evidenced by the Trade Federation inside of it.

You can't make peace with a Palpatine. But what if Palpatine is dead and Pelleon is running the show..? Is the Empire really just the legs and arms of one man, or is it a polity composed of billions of sentient beings, some of whom are very much not evil?

Come to think of it, both Pelleon and Lee were white-haired; is that where Zahn is going with this?

I think it is more of the progression of Zahn making the Empire more Humane and understandable. From the Movies' only perspective, anybody with a conscience would have ran away from the Empire and serving the movies since it totally depicts it as being completely evil and irredeemable. But people aren't like that, and so the Movies' separate the sides out into too stark black and white with neither crossing over. The Movies' give the impression that if you join the Empire, you become irredeemably evil, whereas it was the main top guys encouraged by Palps, not everybody that was evil. The other fact is that Zahn makes the Empire look cool.

Chapters 25, 26.

Booster Terrik and Bel Iblis are outfitting the Errant Venture for her journey. Republic warships are gathering as well.

Bel Iblis explains the plan: The Errant Venture will arrive and request docking clearance. Shortly afterwards, the rest of the task force will enter and stage a diversionary assault on the planet. This will distract the enemy from the Venture, which will use an external terminal interface to access the research network and download the necessary information. After this, the Errant Venture's disguise will be blown. We will transmit the information to the fleet. But then ... the Errant Venture will be in the middle of one of the most heavily defended installations in the galaxy, with a blown cover, and the diversionary assault will undoubtedly be defeated. Iblis, who will be aboard the ship, will attempt to surrender when the situation becomes hopeless. If not... then the Empire blasts the ship into oblivion, along with everyone aboard.

That's why Iblis will be aboard. It's the critical point of the battle where his presence is most needed.

Ghent is escorted to his workroom which has a lot of really nice gear. He has a small geekgasm, completely ignoring his escort as he dives into his toys.

It is worth noting that the ISD that Iblis is posing as is the ISD commanded by the Kuati officer who got the blood sample from Flim and is with the comet. I thought it was a particular impressive piece of Irony.

The deeper Irony is that Iblis could end up accidently getting Ghent killed, who is depicted so far as the only one besides Disra's own people that can hack into the Emperor's personal files.

The new fantasy flight games Star Wars Roleplaying games have a map of the galaxy in the core rulebooks. (Edge of the Empire, and Age of Rebellion) I also have an encyclopedia for SW TOR which has map in there. I think one of the WotC Saga Edition books had a map as well.

Lucas has never been clear about the layout of the galaxy beyond small references to locations, much of which is confusing at best. The map makers had to pretty much make everything up as they went, and later maps simply copied the early stuff done.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 03:03 AM

Luke and Mara discuss events in the tower. During this time, they also take some time to do some relationship building. Luke offers to use Jedi techniques to unlock her buried memories, since she seems to have no memories of anything before her time in Imperial service. There are a lot of back and forth. Mara talks about his interest in previous woman but inability to commit to them, Luke asks pointed questions about Lando. Mara explains that her time with Lando was at Karrde's order for a mission; the 'romance' with Lando never existed. There's nothing between them.

This is also the point where a lot of the Mara-dislike in the fandom really starts to kick off - when Luke agrees with Mara's earlier claim that she was never "on the dark side" and explains why - her unselfish reasons for serving Palpatine. It's seen as whitewashing - especially since previous books don't flinch from the idea that she used to use the Dark Side.

pendell

2015-02-24, 08:00 AM

This is also the point where a lot of the Mara-dislike in the fandom really starts to kick off - when Luke agrees with Mara's earlier claim that she was never "on the dark side" and explains why - her unselfish reasons for serving Palpatine. It's seen as whitewashing - especially since previous books don't flinch from the idea that she used to use the Dark Side.

Maybe, but Mara doesn't seem to be consumed by the dark side nearly as much as Palpatine or Darth Vader did. While she was force-sensitive, she didn't seem to be, in that stage, deep enough to be a Jedi OR a sith. Palpatine wanted her as a tool, not an apprentice, so possibly she was given the bare minimum training necessary to do her job. She'd never knelt at his feet and pledged herself to the sith teachings or done serious dark side learning. It's possible the stuff she learned is mostly what KOTOR would call universal powers (http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic/Force_powers#Universal_powers) -- stuff that all force-users can access. Stuff without light or dark connotations that doesn't much pull you in either direction, but also stuff that isn't relatively interesting or useful.

I would think your objection would have great merit if Mara came out of her service to him as a light-side paragon, but she didn't. She came out (IMO) grey-to-light red.

It's possible that the reason Palpatine didn't give her more significant training was because she wasn't dark side material and trying to force her that way might force a breech, cause her to go rogue. Palpatine was insidious, preferring to make use of people rather than kill them outright, only disposing of them once their usefulness was over. So he hid the worst excesses from her, allowed her to put the barest toe in the lake that is the force, and sent her out as his tool.

We can see that Mara has the potential to be full Jedi or Sith. Palpatine didn't exploit that because he didn't want another Jedi or Sith on his hands, he wanted a tool. This would coincide with a Mara not fully aligned with the Dark Side, and therefore not fully trusted by Palpatine.

So I wouldn't say Mara had "fallen to the dark side" because she wasn't deep enough in the force for that to have any meaning. She hadn't experienced much of its temptations and seductions any more than a blind man can experience color. Which is why she came out of her service to him greyish-to-shallow dark, and since her association with Luke has been steadily moving up the spectrum.

Then again, As we can see Zahn was also attempting to explore the idea that there could be other ways of interacting with the Force than the simplistic Light/Jedi and Dark/Sith duality, and part of challenging that may be introducing edge cases that don't fit the model. It would be a few more years real-time before Lucas lowered the hammer and said , no, there's only light and dark and anyone believing otherwise is deceived.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-24, 08:03 AM

Chapter 27, 28

These go seamlessly together following Luke and Mara's respective points of view.

Luke panics for a moment when he loses Force contact, but gets a grip on himself and reasons that there must be Ysalamir in play. He moves to rescue Mara and encounters a ysalamir-equipped guard. The guard gives a good account of himself but he has the assistance of Child of Winds, who jumps on the guard's gun hand and takes some damage for his panes. Luke has the luxury of smacking the guard unconscious with the hilt of his saber rather than killing him, and does so. Probably a good idea. We don't fully know the intentions of the people here, and bloodshed won't help matters.

Mara, meanwhile, is escorted into a room surrounded by Ysalamir -- she has force contact inside the room, but the walls are blocked off, and her hosts stay near the walls.

And who are these mysterious men she meets?

Well, in addition to the guards themselves, one Stent and one Brosh -- there is Admiral Voss Parck, the former captain who had found Thrawn for the Empire --

-- and Baron Soontir Fel. Formerly of the Empire, then of Rogue squadron. He had defected to the then-Rebellion, then disappeared into an Imperial trap, presumably never to be seen again. Yet here he is, back in Imperial uniform. Why?

Exposition time. Parck and Fel are not actually in Imperial service. They have Imperial-style uniforms and equipment, and the Empire started this little show, but their loyalty is not to the memory of Palpatine or the capital of Bastion. Rather, their loyalty is to Thrawn, personally. They are his personal guard. The blue-skinned aliens are called Chiss. The Chiss are not formally part of Thrawn's Empire out here, but many young Chiss left their planets for the chance to serve under him.

Why did they shoot at the Qom Ja and Qom Qae? Simple. They are not Force-sensitive so they did not realize they were intelligent. They assumed they were vermin, like Mynocks. Mara is in no hurry to disabuse them of that notion.

So.... what are they doing? And why aren't they participating in what's left of the Civil War?

Mara is rude and insulting to her hosts. Fel notes she does this to enemies in order to keep them angry and off-balance. Angry people do not think clearly. But it's not helpful.

At any rate... what are they doing out here instead of saving the Empire?

Okay, the fundamental reason they are here -- the fundamental reason Fel is back in Imperial service -- is that they are aware of a menace from the Unknown Regions, one so dangerous that it freezes the blood even of these combat veterans.

Thrawn knew of this as well. And so his ultimate plan was to unite the forces of the Republic AND the Empire under his personal command in order to meet this threat. In order to do this they must end the Galactic Civil War with the galaxy as undamaged as possible.

We also learn that this is what the clone sleeper cells were for. Thrawn deliberately chose men who loved their homes and lands to form the basis of local resistance movements in case Coruscant and Bastion were both taken by the Threat.

So Thrawn made no mistake in assigning men like Carib Devist to the land and allowing them to love it -- it was his desire that their wishes should coincide with his plans. Seen in this light, Disra's pillaging of the clone cells in order to meet short-term objectives was a terrible mistake , a crippling blow to Thrawn's plans, wasting good men who will be badly needed in the struggle that is to come.

Given this is their goal ,they're in no hurry to stir the dying embers. And why help what's left of the Empire? They are convinced that if Thrawn were here he might not intervene militarily. His Imperial rank notwithstanding, his goal requires the galaxy intact. Intervening on the side of the Empire might result in a pyrrhic victory at best, leaving a crippled and shattered galaxy to face the Unknown Threat.

But ... that doesn't mean they're ready to throw in with the Republic either. They're watching closely, and it looks like the New Republic is about to come apart at the seams. It doesn't matter that the Empire is stirring that trouble -- if the New Republic is so fragile that it even has the POTENTIAL to tear itself apart over something that happens decades ago, then clearly it is neither strong enough nor stable enough to be entrusted with the future of the galaxy.

Which is why Mara is here. The Chiss chips had deliberately sought her out and left her a clear trail to follow back to this base, because the Thrawn Personal Phalanx wants to offer her a job.

They need her because as the Emperor's hand she knew the Empire well. And she also has friends and contacts with the New Republic. She is uniquely placed to advise them in the best course for them to take in future events.

In other words ... they are offering her leadership.

Yet she can't see this, and becomes very insulting. Besides, Parck and company are waiting for something -- Thrawn left standing orders that, in the event of his death, they should watch for his return in ten years. That is what they are doing, and they want Mara to wait with them.

They have heard many rumors of Thrawn inviting in planets and doing things in the New Republic -- Tierce's efforts to attract their attention are working -- and they intend to contact Bastion in order to ascertain the truth of it. If Thrawn really is there, they will place their forces at his disposal.

Mara states that this is a bad, bad idea. And makes it clear she will resist this.

Seeing this, and knowing how much trouble Jedi can be, Parck orders her restrained the only way he knows how -- to hit her with a crippling wound so that she will go into a healing trance. While recovering, she will be immobilized and ineffective.

Mara protests; she doesn't have the skill to do that. The hosts point out her healed wound which clearly demonstrates she was in a healing trance not so long ago. She protests that Luke was the one who put her in the trance -- without him she could die. All the more reason for him to surrender quickly, they say.

Before they can act, Luke bursts into the room for the heroic rescue.

There is a very tense moment, then Parck orders that Luke and Mara be allowed to leave unharmed.

Of course. He just spent all this time telling us how the galaxy needs everyone, Republic AND Imperial. He will not waste troops in a pointless battle -- that is a lesson Thrawn drummed into all of them -- or for that matter risk Mara, whom he still intends to recruit at some point.

Our heroes take their leave. Paarck makes his offer again. Mara warns them to stay away from Bastion.

Parck: "We'll do what we have to".
Mara: "Then so will I".

And on that note, they leave. Well, we've certainly learned a lot and set the stage for the post-Hand of Thrawn books.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-24, 08:45 AM

pendell

2015-02-24, 09:23 AM

And perhaps that is what happens when some of SW's boys-school philosophy is taken to its logical conclusion by grown adults. No one ever said that humans who had deliberately cut themselves off from attachments would be nice. If anything , they can be just as ruthless as any dark sider because they don't have those compassionate attachments to others that make humans human, allows them to see clones ( for example) as more than just living weapons to be expended.

It doesn't surprise me the Jedi thought that way about clones, because it's probably the way they thought about themselves as well. People who have no attachments can be quite cold and manipulative, determined to do all manner of nasty things 'for the greater good', but that's okay because they don't have an feelings about it.

It seems as if in Star Wars a 'light' or 'dark' depends not on the objective impact on the world around you, but on your attitude towards the act. That certainly wouldn't fly in D&D!

So I can well imagine creating a character who would be, by SW ethics, light-sided ,but by D&D ethics lawful evil. A person willing to inflict atrocities and torture and all kinds of terrible things 'for the greater good' , but since they have no personal feelings about this it doesn't make them SW darksided.

what's the word for this ... sociopath?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cikomyr

2015-02-24, 09:30 AM

Dark side and Light side should not define Good and Evil. I have had ideas of Dark-Side Good characters.

Also, i think there should be a difference between "Greater Good" rationalization and actually doing someone else's bidding because you genuinely devote yourself entirely to them.

The GG rationalization? Thats the path on the Dark Side. You make.decisions, you force sacrifice because of something YOU decide is right, because of what YOU define as the greater good. Your view of morality. That is Dark Side.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 10:43 AM

And perhaps that is what happens when some of SW's boys-school philosophy is taken to its logical conclusion by grown adults. No one ever said that humans who had deliberately cut themselves off from attachments would be nice. If anything , they can be just as ruthless as any dark sider because they don't have those compassionate attachments to others that make humans human, allows them to see clones ( for example) as more than just living weapons to be expended.

It doesn't surprise me the Jedi thought that way about clones, because it's probably the way they thought about themselves as well. People who have no attachments can be quite cold and manipulative, determined to do all manner of nasty things 'for the greater good', but that's okay because they don't have an feelings about it.
While the Republic Commando books had the Mandos see the Jedi as this way - pretty much every other CW source has tended to portray the Jedi as the ones who see the clones as "people" and the ordinary Republic citizens, Senators, and some Republic military officers, as the ones who see them as "weapons to be expended".

So I can well imagine creating a character who would be, by SW ethics, light-sided ,but by D&D ethics lawful evil. A person willing to inflict atrocities and torture and all kinds of terrible things 'for the greater good' , but since they have no personal feelings about this it doesn't make them SW darksided.
The Jedi Covenant in the KotOR comics spring to mind. So obsessed with "preventing the return of the Sith" that in the first comic book in the series they massacre their own Padawans based on a vision of the "always in motion" future - and spend most of the next 5 comic books trying to hunt down the one Padawan who escaped.

pendell

2015-02-24, 01:22 PM

While the Republic Commando books had the Mandos see the Jedi as this way - pretty much every other CW source has tended to portray the Jedi as the ones who see the clones as "people" and the ordinary Republic citizens, Senators, and some Republic military officers, as the ones who see them as "weapons to be expended".

There's some very enlightening conversations in the ROTS novelization on this theme. Yoda and Ben discuss their relationship to each other, how despite their long association, if it became necessary they would each sacrifice the other without hesitation. Anakin won't. They consider that a flaw and a weakness in him.

Heck, it even makes it into the first scene of Episode III -- Obi-wan and Anakin are flying a space sortie. Anakin wants to save his clone escorts from destruction at the hands of droid fighters. Obi-wan says "No. They are doing their job so we can do ours."

Anakin is attached to them; Obi-wan is not.

That same theme shows up in Ep. V when Luke is preparing to attempt to rescue Han and Leia. Yoda and Obi-wan both try to talk him down, both from this and his later attempt to redeem the Emperor. From their perspective his friendship with Han and Leia are liabilities, weaknesses which tempt him to passion, and passion leads to the Dark Side.

That's a thing about Obi-wan in the original Trilogy; he may put on a kindly face but he's not your friend. He always and all the time has his own agenda which has nothing to do with yours, smoothly manipulating Luke with a tale of Darth Vader's betrayal which was a flat out lie.

To be a light side Jedi, at least of the Old Order, is to deliberately cut your connections with fellow sentients in the service of a nebulous unseen energy field, to deliberately cut the ties that give you empathy and sympathy for intelligent beings. It's institutionalized sociopathy. Small wonder so many of them fall prey to arrogance or the Dark Side ; their own training puts them in a position where it's all to easy to think of themselves alone as Special and everyone else as a tool to be used; they are deliberately suppressing the empathy which makes us care for our fellow creature rather than prey on him. And from there to squeezing an Admiral's throat for failure as if he were a meat animal that wasn't up to grade is a very small step.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 01:33 PM

Anakin does say in AOTC that "Compassion is central to a Jedi's life" though.

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth, and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally. And the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary

pendell

2015-02-24, 01:46 PM

What is compassion without attachment? How does that even work? Compassion literally means (http://www.compassion.com/child-development/meaning-of-compassion/) "to suffer with" . You cannot experience compassion if you cannot experience, on some level, what the other person is going through. it is almost literally "fellow feeling".

There is no compassion without attachment, though there can be attachment without compassion -- the attachment of hatred, for one.

So I don't know what "compassion" they teach in the Jedi temple that ignores this basic definition, but I suspect they're misusing the word. What they're actually teaching is a kind of benevolence, but one that is devoid of any emotional connotation. So might a scientist regard a lab rat, or a working man his shoes.

For me, such a "compassion" is far less believable than laser swords or levitating rocks. Also, less cool.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 01:53 PM

"Attachment" in this case, is of the more extreme kind - when the Jedi (or Lucas) say attachment, they mean "unhealthy attachment".

pendell

2015-02-24, 01:56 PM

"Attachment" in this case, is of the more extreme kind - when the Jedi (or Lucas) say attachment, they mean "unhealthy attachment".

Makes sense. Although I disagree that Anakin's attachment to his mother and his wife were unhealthy -- what was unhealthy was the way he dealt with those issues. It's right to love your mother, it's wrong to murder an entire village when she dies.

So far as I can tell, if Anakin had been in an environment where he could seek therapy, counseling, and emotional support from people who also had family, he might have come out a lot better than he did in an environment where he could do nothing but deny the existence of that attachment and live a lie, which is never healthy.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 02:03 PM

So far as I can tell, if Anakin had been in an environment where he could seek therapy, counseling, and emotional support from people who also had family, he might have come out a lot better than he did in an environment where he could do nothing but deny the existence of that attachment and live a lie, which is never healthy.

EU writers differ on Whether Jedi Should Have Families. It's worth noting that the writer of Republic Commando - one of the most critical takes on the PT Jedi, argued that they shouldn't:

Legacy of the Force: Inferno Round Robin Interview

Random House: "The Jedi of Yoda's day believed that romantic and family relationships between Jedi could only lead to disaster. Hasn't that view been pretty well borne out by the history of Darth Vader and his children and grandchildren?"

Aaron Allston: "I think the Republic-era belief that attachment leads to disaster is on-target, but I hope we're going to show that not all love matches constitute that form of attachment. My belief is that any number of Jedi could marry and have kids without invoking tragedy. I think part of the problem is that the Skywalker family is about as important as, and about as lucky as, the house of Atreus from Greek mythology. That is to say, very important ... but not very lucky."

Karen Traviss: "No, I'm inclined to think Yoda got it right. Jedi shouldn't be allowed to have families. These people are superweapons, and once they lose the ability to detach—however much moral decline that so-called detachment got them into in the late Republic—then their family feuds will end up dragging in the whole galaxy. The Legacy of the Force saga is basically a family spat involving an ex or two that creates galactic war. Do they see the irony? I don't know. But like all people with vast power and a sense of dynastic entitlement, they take their eye off the ball and—whatever they think they are doing—make decisions based on what's good for the people they love, not the majority. They're only human. Trouble is, their powers and their influence aren't ..."

though by the time TCW: No Prisoners came out - one of her last SW books, she may have changed her mind some - since that Jedi splinter faction, led by Djinn Altis (the master of Callista from Children of the Jedi) are portrayed as recruiting adults for Jedi training, allowing marriages - and are painted as much nicer and less dogmatic than Yoda's Jedi.

pendell

2015-02-24, 02:12 PM

Ironically, I've heard a similar argument made in favor of monarchy, as opposed to democracy. A democratically elected politician has the luxury, if s/he so chooses, of saying and doing only what will get them elected ; what happens even four years down the road isn't a problem. A dynastic monarch, by contrast, has to face the fact that s/he's going to be handing over a kingdom to hir progeny, which means they're forced to take a long-term view.

It's a wonderful theory when the monarch is such a paragon. But the other kind (http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Joffrey_Baratheon) is all too common.

The GFFA just can't catch a break. They can be ruled by a Republic which is torn apart by squabbling, shortsighted officials and is moreover weak, or they can be ruled by an Imperial family which likewise tears itself apart under the stress of human relationships. Maybe they should try rule by robots. All Hail R2D2, galactic Emperor!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 02:31 PM

The GFFA just can't catch a break. They can be ruled by a Republic which is torn apart by squabbling, shortsighted officials and is moreover weak, or they can be ruled by an Imperial family which likewise tears itself apart under the stress of human relationships. Maybe they should try rule by robots.

There's an interesting conversation between Mon Mothma and Leia in the Black Fleet Crisis series, after Han's captured:

"Leia, dear, surely you haven't told yourself that being President means that you can't listen to what you feel, that all your decisions must be guided solely by what you think. Leadership is more than calculation, or we would hand the whole messy business over to droids. Kings and presidents, emperors and potentates - the best of them are guided by honest passions as much as by a noble ethic or cool, incisive reason."

"Passion and power have always seemed to me to be a dangerous combination."

"Without reason or ethics, they almost always are. But reason needs a passion for truth, and ethics a passion for justice. Without that, neither is really alive."

pendell

2015-02-24, 02:59 PM

That ... is well said. Is the book itself any good?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

McStabbington

2015-02-24, 03:05 PM

I don't know that Obi-Wan and Yoda were blue-orange so much as victim of Lucas' powers of rationalization. We know that the most clear explication of the Force came from Eps. IV and V. We also know that Lucas had the least editorial control of those two films. We still further know that since ROTJ, Lucas has been on an Ahab-like quest to kill the idea that anything to do with Star Wars not springing full-formed from his brow is part of the Star Wars universe, no matter how much better it is than the story he's telling. I also get the impression that he likes to change his mind and then deny that the change ever took place.

And I think that a lot of the best qualities of Yoda and Ben die a very hard death when we buy into the idea that Lucas is the auteur of all things Star Wars. It's really hard to reconcile a Ben Kenobi that was a member of the council whose code denied all emotion with a mentor whose first lesson involved stretching out with one's feelings.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 03:12 PM

That ... is well said. Is the book itself any good?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I liked the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy (that scene was in book 3) but it seems to have rather mixed reviews.

It's suggested to be a "Tom Clancy political/military techno-thriller In Space" on TV Tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/BlackFleetCrisis

so if you already like that sort of thing, you might like this.

Gadora

2015-02-24, 03:29 PM

That ... is well said. Is the book itself any good?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think the trilogy is generally pretty good, but Luke's storyline is, on the whole, a bit awkward.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-24, 04:17 PM

Luke's storyline is utterly pointless nowadays, since the prequels have come out and so everyone reading it knows how the subplot will end. The main plot isn't bad, I enjoyed it.

pendell

2015-02-24, 04:27 PM

I dunno, the quote looks good but then I read the tropes page and I see stuff like this.

McDowell gave Luke super-construction powers (with intense concentration and lots of meditation). Not only was he able to find the shattered, scattered, buried remains of his father's fortress and reassemble them in midair with the Force, he was able to make broken edges fuse and shuffle the mineral content to build a tower out of those remains, and then he was able to resculpt the stone at will and play with light and gravity inside. All other EU material tends to ignore this power.

...

"Well Done, Son!" Guy: Chewbacca's son Lumpy accompanies the crew of the Millennium Falcon so he can prove himself to his father.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/331/2/c/profile_picture_by_ayfkm-d4hhi6z.jpg

Umm... no. Just... no.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 04:27 PM

When it came to the Luke subplot I wasn't interested in the end, so much as the getting there - the Free Trader planet, Akanah's pacifistic arguments (and Luke's counters) and so on.

The Lando one is really standalone-ish (could have been a book of its own) but I liked the Lando novel trilogy, and it harked back to that. Gave us a little insight into Lobot as well.

I dunno, the quote looks good but then I read the tropes page and I see stuff like this.

Umm... no. Just... no.

That's pretty much ignored after the first few chapters of the first book - in the rest of the book, and the next two in the series, Luke's powers are a bit more "normal" (even if still overused).

As it is - it's that level of power wielded, that Zahn portrays as cutting Luke off from the more "insight-providing" aspects of the Force. Worth looking at if only to see how accurate Zahn's complaints were.

russdm

2015-02-24, 05:01 PM

To be honest, I think that both Jedi and Sith fall on two sides of the same coin. They are similar in so many ways and different in only a few. Both use the Force, both recruit more members, both have messed up philosophy that denies reality some-what, both hate the other, and both are compelled in think in stark terms of black and white or Light and Dark.

The Jedi: Are supposedly peace-loving and caring, but actually care little for others. They can claim they have compassion and the like, but they have been reported as being well to procure or commandeer equipment/belongings of individuals without recompense. Quigon uses Watto's gambling to manipulate him thoroughly. The council, including Yoda, doesn't seem to care the Quigon has basically being playing Watto. There is also the complete lack of any emotional involvement with anyone outside the Order and the Order discourages members to develop friendships or relationships with other members. The Order takes young children and raises them in sterile environments devoid of emotional learning, encourages them through teaching to suppress all emotions, and preaches that Love is one of the most dangerous emotions for a Jedi to experience.

That kind of training can easily produce Sociopaths and the Order is stated outright to be devoted to keeping the Republic in power, despite its flaws and suppressing anything that encourage change within the Republic. The Jedi have no problem taking things to use for the "greater good" which is frequently defined solely as keeping the Republic running, however messed up it has gotten. The Jedi are effectively supporting a corrupt version of the Catholic Power church, in a way. (The one where nobles used the religion for political power and made common people be unable to read, and used scripture to promote teachings that weren't in the scripture like indulgences that were part of what Martin Luther posted his 95 Thesis about)

The Sith: Focused solely on the individual while trying to use the ways of Nature to support their theories. They employ mainly dark emotions, use the dark side, and really get into going crazy. They get portrayed frequently as Stupid Evil, reflecting Lucas' inability to consider smart or intelligent villains. Sith tend to be highly prone to acting without thinking. They recruit others but prefer individuals with dark aspects to twist further. They also teach that Love is dangerous but their view is that Love encourages you to care about others more than yourself. They teach their members to use whatever they can for their own personal benefit.

This of course means that all Sith are either Psychopaths or Sociopaths. Sith philosophy is profoundly self-centered and teaches Might make Right. These causes endless infighting of course. Due to their nature and philosophy, any Sith government quickly collapses and does so frequently. They teach a one-sided set of emotions.

Both sides overlap in that neither actually feels anything for anyone. The Jedi lack the emotional ability to interact with others as real individuals whose opinions/feelings matter since the Jedi deny the existence of emotions heavily. The Sith simply don't care at all.

Is it really any wonder that Jedi are just as likely to end up becoming dark siders? Arrogance leads to the Dark Side just as much as Anger/Hate/Fear does. When you don't perceive others and their emotions as mattering, you really can't connect with them so the difficulty people within the galaxy have with relating to or understanding the Jedi makes sense.

Compassion does require being able to see situations from the others' perspective and recognize their emotional states. The Jedi actually doesn't teach this at all, but makes them only to see a limited amount of the others' perspective and teaches the Jedi to discredit or dismiss the emotional aspects. They are taught to give empty platitudes when people are hurting or suffering and they are supposed to do whatever they can to safeguard the Republic and it's interests even if that means hurting people.

pendell

2015-02-24, 05:17 PM

In other words, a less grimdark version of Warhammer's Empire versus the sons of chaos. On the one hand you have a religious order which suppresses any sign of deviance and exterminates heretics, and on the other you have crazy For The Evols. "Stable, reasonable, and well-adjusted" doesn't get a look-in.

In your examples, Don't forget Obi-wan commandeering a ride in Ep. III, the one he was on when order 66 went down. He never did compensate the owner, just force-tricked him and took his ride.

Or, in Ep. II, Anakin just grabbing a nearby speeder to pursue Obi-wan while he was on his crazy ride across Coruscant, though IMO that was justifiable.

Even so, it speaks to the extremely cavalier attitude the Jedi have towards other people's property. If they see something they need, they'll take it. If you won't give it up willingly they'll force-dominate you into doing so.

Maybe its' because the Jedi have little experience with private property themselves that they have little respect for the private property of others.

I think that extends through all aspects of their work -- they don't own things so they don't understand the feelings of those who do. They don't have families so they have nothing to offer the grieving except platitudes. And these are the people who are supposed to be the mediators and negotiators for the entire galaxy!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

russdm

2015-02-24, 05:25 PM

I think that extends through all aspects of their work -- they don't own things so they don't understand the feelings of those who do. They don't have families so they have nothing to offer the grieving except platitudes. And these are the people who are supposed to be the mediators and negotiators for the entire galaxy!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

This is why the Jedi also fail at their jobs as mediators and negotiators. They simply don't get either side so they just default to "What will benefit the Republic most?" for comprises.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-24, 05:29 PM

Re Black Fleet Crisis...

Eeeh... Let's just say that one did not make the cut when the Great Bleakbane Star War Novel clearout happened.

Among it's other sins it that it treid to bring "real" distances and ranges in to Star Wars... which would be sort of noble if the way they it was kinda contrary to everything else that had gone previously (especially The Good Bits).

As to the Jedi, I simply take the view that... They only ever WORK as an order when they are being "Lawful Good." (That is actual Lawful Good, like Optimus Prime or Superman or Cliff Richard or something, and not "psychotic Paladin Lawful Asshat.") And as soon as they go off that and into "ooh, you mustn't form attachments or anything" and basically going into Lawful Neutral they decend into blithering idiots who get the whole order wiped out for the umpteen n+1th time.

And the Sith only ever get anywhere when - surprise, surprise, they are being Lawful Evil and vaguely organised, and not a) totally self-centered about their own power and inability to understand non-Force things as important and b) not bonkers, baby-eating Chaotic Evil.

Notably, Palatine was narrowly not those two things and he unified the galaxy in under two decades.

Basically, the problems for both sides occur - funnily enough like all-too many religions and faiths (see: Discworld's Small Gods)- when they become too focused on the rules of said religion/faith and philosphising about those rules and not enough actually Getting On With The Job In Hand.

Or TLDR: Yoda was a fragging idiot.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 05:38 PM

In your examples, Don't forget Obi-wan commandeering a ride in Ep. III, the one he was on when order 66 went down. He never did compensate the owner, just force-tricked him and took his ride.

Or, in Ep. II, Anakin just grabbing a nearby speeder to pursue Obi-wan while he was on his crazy ride across Coruscant, though IMO that was justifiable.

Considering he knows a battle scene is just about to start, with Cody's forces to engage Grievous right after he does, I'd say Obi-Wan's actions make sense as well.

His words in the novel, just before he rides off in the direction of Grievous:

"I cannot pay you. As compensation, I can only offer the freedom of your planet; I hope that will suffice."

pendell

2015-02-24, 05:58 PM

Individually, that makes sense. Although if I were in charge of the Republic, I'd want the Jedi to have vouchers of some kind or a line of credit for just these occasions. They may not carry cash, but they're on the Republic's business, and the Republic should make good. They can afford it, and "freedom of your planet" doesn't help make the monthly rent.

I wonder ... Qui-Gonn had Republic credits in Episode I. Perhaps Palpatine withheld currency etc. from the Jedi on some pretext, in order to make it harder for them to evade Order 66? If you intend to kill people giving them access to unlimited funds isn't a good first step.

Although you would think that, if he HAD given them such a line of credit, he could cut it off by simply entering a command on his desktop terminal.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-24, 06:01 PM

As to the Jedi, I simply take the view that... They only ever WORK as an order when they are being "Lawful Good." (That is actual Lawful Good, like Optimus Prime or Superman or Cliff Richard or something, and not "psychotic Paladin Lawful Asshat.") And as soon as they go off that and into "ooh, you mustn't form attachments or anything" and basically going into Lawful Neutral they decend into blithering idiots who get the whole order wiped out for the umpteen n+1th time.

And the Sith only ever get anywhere when - surprise, surprise, they are being Lawful Evil and vaguely organised, and not a) totally self-centered about their own power and inability to understand non-Force things as important and b) not bonkers, baby-eating Chaotic Evil.

Pretty much. If Lucas had just stuck with plain ol D&D good vs. evil instead of trying badly to inject Zen Buddhism into it, he'd have been much better off from a storytelling point of view.

Basically, the problems for both sides occur - funnily enough like all-too many religions and faiths (see: Discworld's Small Gods)- when they become too focused on the rules of said religion/faith and philosphising about those rules and not enough actually Getting On With The Job In Hand.

Or TLDR: Yoda was a fragging idiot.

Both comments , well said.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-24, 06:16 PM

I wonder how well the Jedi Order did in the 900-odd years between the fall of the last Sith Empire (and the "formation of the Republic") and TPM.

Cikomyr

2015-02-24, 07:56 PM

Luke's storyline is utterly pointless nowadays, since the prequels have come out and so everyone reading it knows how the subplot will end. The main plot isn't bad, I enjoyed it.

There's also Lando's plot about boarding a living ship.

So irrelevant people forget it exists.

The Glyphstone

2015-02-24, 07:59 PM

There's also Lando's plot about boarding a living ship.

So irrelevant people forget it exists.

Yeah, but Lando+Lobot+the droid duo are a fun enough group that the irrelevance gets mitigated. I was looking forward to the Lando segments a lot more than I was looking forward to the Luke bits.

Gadora

2015-02-24, 09:12 PM

There's also Lando's plot about boarding a living ship.

So irrelevant people forget it exists.

That was fun, though. I liked it, especially since Lobot doesn't really get used all that often.

Cikomyr

2015-02-24, 09:16 PM

That was fun, though. I liked it, especially since Lobot doesn't really get used all that often.

Now that you mention it, Lobot's development was, indeed, fun.

Still one big piece of randomness that probably would have been better to be its own mini-novel.

McStabbington

2015-02-24, 10:08 PM

Pretty much. If Lucas had just stuck with plain ol D&D good vs. evil instead of trying badly to inject Zen Buddhism into it, he'd have been much better off from a storytelling point of view.

Both comments , well said.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Honestly, I've started to subscribe to the meta-fictional view that the problem is really that Lucas never got over his divorce. Lucas worked with his wife on the first film, and by "worked with", I mean that she took a first cut of a film that a lot of test audiences were referring to with terms like "plodding", "slow" and "ungainly" and completely re-cut the film largely on her own and edited the film into the Star Wars we know, pioneering a lot of the fast, visceral editing that has since become a staple of action-movie language as she did so.

And then she divorced Lucas in . . . 1982 or so in an almost legendarily bitter fight. And weirdly enough, and completely coincidentally, I'm sure, Lucas has spent the rest of his life saying that no one else had any say on the creative process of Star Wars, and that the Jedi that spend all of the first two films counseling Luke to avoid the worst aspects of emotions like rage, aggression and fear suddenly become an order devoted entirely to denying all emotion and forming no loving attachments whatsoever.

Total coincidence, I tell you.

hamishspence

2015-02-25, 03:23 AM

Compassion does require being able to see situations from the others' perspective and recognize their emotional states.

This is what I've seen argued on "non-attached, unconditional love" vs "attachment".

Attachment is selfish. Love is selfless.

Loving someone means being able and willing to let that person go, regardless of one's own feelings for that person, if letting go is the best for that person.

Attachment means clinging to the person for one's own personal gain with little to no regard for how the other person might be affected.

Attachment causes people to beat and/or stalk their spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends after being told that the relationship can no longer continue. Love lets the person go, due to wanting the person to be happy.

Attachment is suffocating, smothering, and/or blatantly dangerous. Love is safe and trustworthy.

A lot of people have said that attachments are good because of Luke's attachment to Vader in ROTJ.

Well, I'd say Luke's compassion, his unconditional love, for Vader comes from a place of non-attachment, and he wouldn't be able to love Vader otherwise. How could he love Vader, one might ask, Vader is a terrible person, has done terrible things and continues to do terrible things. (side note: This is how Padme can still love Anakin after everything he does, she loves him in an unconditional, unattached way. This is why Anakin turns on Padme and Obi-Wan, he loves them, but selfishly, and when they "betray" him, he turns on them instantly. If you're not with me, then you're my enemy. That's as conditional as it gets.)

I think Luke was actually attached to Vader in ESB, when he hated him, not in ROTJ, when he loved him. In ESB, Luke sees Vader as separate from himself, as an enemy, an enemy who killed Obi-Wan and did terrible things to Leia and so on, an enemy to be struck down. Luke actually clings, attaches, to the idea of Vader as a hated enemy.

Luke sees himself inside Vader's armor in the cave in ESB, and later Luke understands that he and Vader are one, the same. Luke temporarily loses his control when Vader mentions Leia, and it is Vader's mechanical hand that reminds Luke that he and Vader are one, Luke is Vader, and Vader is Luke. Luke can become Vader if he's not careful, and Vader was once like Luke, he was once Anakin Skywalker.

Luke comes to love Vader not just because Vader is his father, but because he and Vader are one, and he loves him unconditionally, regardless of what he has done.

What Anakin said about compassion and unconditional love are true, it's just that his words are not an accurate depiction of his love for Padme, which is not unconditional, it's obsessive and clingy and desperate, it's attachment.

Anakin clearly misses Padme at the beginning of AOTC. You can't miss someone like that, so desperately, unless one is attached. If one is not attached, if one does not see others as outside themselves, who is there to miss?

Don't know how fair it is toward the term though.

pendell

2015-02-25, 08:54 AM

Attachment is selfish. Love is selfless.

Loving someone means being able and willing to let that person go, regardless of one's own feelings for that person, if letting go is the best for that person.

Hmmm... are you quoting? If so, who and in what work?

Nonetheless, I can't say I agree :).

I once saw a hen with a brood of chicks. The shadow of a hawk swept the yard. The mother hen knew what that meant and carefully gathered all her chicks underneath her, making herself a target.

That is love but that is also attachment. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have done that if the chicks were strangers.

Likewise, when parents deny themselves to raise their children, or a soldier lays down his life for his buddies, that is attachment but it is also love.

I suspect "love" is actually a biological response to two fundamental biological facts:

1) Humans are pack animals. A single human is a tasty meat snack for any number of predators. A pack of humans is an apex predator that can totally dominate the surrounding environment.

2) Human infants are among the most immature , helpless creatures in the world who are very high maintenance. "Mother love" is an attachment that encourages the parents to see through the raising of the offspring to maturity, rather than ditching hir as a liability.

How does this work? Not by not being selfishness. Instead love IS selfish, but it expands the definition of self beyond the physical body. A mother looks after a child because she is her own flesh and blood; she sees the child as an extension of herself.

This is a gut-level emotional response which most people don't think of. Similar responses can be seen in higher mammals as well who don't think rationally the way humans do, but higher mammals such as dogs have very similar biological impetuses, which is why humans and dogs so readily adopt each other into their families.

It's possible that this emotional response predates intelligence; certainly it is a deeper core for most people than the rational intellect.

"Compassion" is closely related. The essence of compassion is, when your neighbor is stung by a bee your own toe hurts as well. Because they're part of you.

Thus I contend that love is not selfless -- if anything , love leverages the selfish instinct of survival and applies it to a larger group. It is not a rational act. it is an emotional response which most people don't even think about until after it is done.

Military training leverages this principle, causing the soldier to adopt his platoon as a form of family so that they will look after each other like brothers, not simply follow their personal self-interest and run in the heat of battle.

Still, that doesn't mean that there is no place for rationality in love , or that love is attachment without limit. This attachment, if taken too far, means that you won't allow another person to make their own decisions or live their own life. Your business becomes their business, their home your home. Anyone who gets this close to another person is going to get some definite pushback, even in a marriage.

So I would say that "love" is attachment within reasonable limits. But love is not the opposite of attachment. Instead, love is to attachment what a little wine is to drunkenness -- the first is within reasonable limits, the second is what happens when it is taken to harmful excess.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

pendell

2015-02-25, 09:06 AM

Chapters 29, 30.
The Chiss pursue Mara and Luke, who are helped by the Qom Jha to escape. They get out to the Chiss hangar and set about disabling all their spacecraft. Aftewards, they discuss the matter. They're not sure they should bother the Threateners, though the Qom Jha expect them to live up to their bargain to get rid of them.

They look back at the tower which looks remarkably like a grasping hand from this angle, and realize THIS is the hand of thrawn, containing the only superweapon he needs -- information.

Nonetheless.. there DOES appear to be an extremely dangerous threat out there. Why else would Fel be back with them?

Even so, they can't just let the people here make themselves known to Bastion. Mara is convinced that the people here are too naive -- the people running the show on Bastion will take their resources and point them straight at Coruscant.

As Luke drops into a healing trance to address his wounds, Mara sets off alone to stop the Thrawn loyalists from revealing themselves to the Empire. No matter what. She must have a desperate plan. Is Luke's vision of her lying comatose about to be fulfilled...?

BOTHAWUI:

The Imperial sabotage team crashes into Maranda's dig in the middle of the night, intent on rubbing her out. They find nothing save some trick lights and a taunting recording. Maranda is nearby and recording them, of course. This allows her to confirm that these are the pet store owners.

Unfortunately, she has no muscle to back up her knowledge. She has no solid proof that any Republic agent would believe, and the Bothans would be twice as bad, especially since there are outstanding warrants for her arrest.

...

Did Karrde leave her with any money? If I were her, knowing what she knows, I'd go to some shady bar and hire some underworld assassins to attack the pet shop, no questions asked. Even if they fail in their task, they should at least distract or disrupt the sabotage team long enough -- and in that delay, the nasty situation in orbit might be resolved.

But she doesn't think of this or perhaps doesn't have the resources. She follows the team in the hopes of finding out exactly what their plan is so she can find some clever way to thwart it.

The Lady Luck :

Han sends a message to Leia telling her that they've found the Caamas document. She excitedly runs off to tell the President and tells Han to come to Bothawui. Unfortunately, not a few minutes later Lando comes into report that their Verpine slicer reports the report has been doctored; not just altered, but altered to implicate pretty much the entire Bothan political structure. This is just going to make things worse.

Unfortunately, Leia's already run off to blab the good news so everyone on Bothawui will be anxiously expecting the document with baited breath. Telling them they don't have it after all will make things bad also, as they will assume a cover-up. Han decides to go anyway in the hopes that, by pretending to have a copy of the document, they can bluff the Bothans into revealing the conspirators themselves. It's worth a try, anyway, but I doubt it'll work.

The Villain Trio discusses the latest developments. The TIE-modified indicates the presence of the Hand of Thrawn, and Tierce confirms that he knows a great deal about them, has been deliberately trying to draw them out, in order to use their resources and save the Empire.

They note that Bel Iblis has disappeared and a Mystral delegate is en route. Tierce concludes from this that he is attempting an information to acquire the Caamas document from Yaga Minor. He instructs the fleet and the Mystral ambassador to prepare to travel there, where they will simultanously give a demonstration of "Thrawn"'s tactical genius, convince the Hand of Thrawn that Thrawn is back, AND deal a humiliating blow to the Republic's beset and brightest.

Why Yaga Minor and not Bastion. Tierce says this won't happen because attacking Bastion unprovoked would be a "propaganda victory" which would cause a thousand systems to join the Empire overnight.

I don't find this at all plausible. They're at war. The whole reason Bastion is hidden in the first place is because the Republic would undoubtedly hit it if they knew where it was. And the Empire is in NO position whatsoever to complain about attacks. After Caamas and Alderaan and a thousand other atrocitieis, no military action against them can reasonably be "unprovoked".

Admiral Pelleon finds his way to the prison colony where Major Vermel is being held and "bluffs" his way into getting the prisoner released, if you can truly call it a "bluff" when the Admiral arrives with a full detachment of stormtroopers and a star destroyer. He is fully prepared to kill every man who resists on the station, and I think they know it. Vermel is produced and after the Imperial equivalent of a joyful reunion, they leave for Pelleon's ship, where Vermel will be debriefed. They will also depart for Bastion in order to find out just what is the basis of all these Thrawn rumors they are hearing.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-25, 09:09 AM

Hmmm... are you quoting? If so, who and in what work?

From Star Wars forums - various defenders of the PT Jedi and How They Do Things.

I don't necessarily agree 100% - but it's hard to see the Obi-Wan and Yoda of the OT as "institutionalized sociopaths" either.

Cikomyr

2015-02-25, 05:23 PM

hamishspence

2015-02-25, 05:30 PM

Actually, all the operations against the Iron Fist were in the Allston novels.

It's been a while since I read Wedge's Gamble - but I was under the impression that it was a bit on the chaotic side, and that Corran had a tendency to get in over his head, in that.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-25, 05:31 PM

I find funny that Zhan keep pushing the idea that Wedge and Corran are both horrendous at stealth operations when a big part of Stackpole's X-Wing series has them performing (rather effectively) spec ops against Coruscant and the Iron Fist.

Even more so when you remember that by this time, Zhan and Stackpole were collaborating like bandits...!

hamishspence

2015-02-25, 05:40 PM

He does mention Isard in passing in this duology a couple of times. And the "bacta shortage during the war" is a reference to the events of The Krytos Trap and The Bacta War. it's possible that while he gets Stackpole to vet his use of Booster and Corran:

http://theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/timothyzahn.asp

You mentioned writing decisions a couple of times there. Did you have any contact with the ‘Legacy of the Force’ team? I know that, in the past, you have had a good working relationship with Mike Stackpole, and I’ve heard that when Kathy Tyers wrote Balance Point, she asked you to look over the scenes with Mara to make sure that she had the character right.

I had no contact with any of the Legacy group. In fact, I didn’t even know Mara was slated for death until three months before the book came out, when I happened to ask the editor a direct question.

But yes, Mike Stackpole and Kathy Tyers were very good about letting me vet their use of my characters. It is sometimes very difficult to get someone else’s characters right, which is why I’ve avoided using anyone except Mike’s, which he’s also been willing to vet for me, and then generally only in cameos.
he goes his own way with their actual story roles.

LadyEowyn

2015-02-25, 08:42 PM

I love the reveal about the Hand of Thrawn, because it's precisely his style. He didn't win battles through application of overwhelming power, but through knowledge and effective application of that knowledge.

Regarding earlier posts on Thrawn, Pellaeon, and analogies to General Lee of American Civil War fame:

Minor quibble: Lee didn't enslave anyone. He didn't own any slaves when he was young on account of being dead broke. He acquired slaves when he married a rich wife, which he manumitted (http://americancivilwar.com/authors/Joseph_Ryan/Articles/General-Lee-Slaves/General-Lee-Family-Slaves.html) over the course of several years.

Lee is actually a pretty close match for Pelleon; Lee was , at the very least, not fond of slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#Lee.27s_views_on_slavery) though he was not an abolitionist. He wasn't fighting for the south because he wanted slavery. he was fighting for the south because he considered Virginia his native country, which he would defend against armed aggressors regardless of their rationale. Had Virginia remained in the Union, he would have remained in the Federal army; it might have been he and not Grant who led the Northern armies. The trousers of time have such strange twists ...

Pendell: For reference, Lee was not opposed to slavery, did not support any actions to end it, and any objections or reservations he had were on the basis that he thought it was bad for white slaveowners:

"I think it [slavery] however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence...Although the Abolitionist must know this, & must See that he has neither the right or power of operating except by moral means & suasion, & if he means well to the slave, he must not Create angry feelings in the Master; that although he may not approve the mode which it pleases Providence to accomplish its purposes, the result will nevertheless be the same; that the reasons he gives for interference in what he has no Concern, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbors when we disapprove their Conduct; Still I fear he will persevere in his evil Course."

Source: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/08/arlington-bobby-lee-and-the-peculiar-institution/61428/

And Lee's army did regularly capture free black people and sell them into slavery in the South during their invasion of Pennsylvania. (I'm getting the latter fact from Ken Burns' The Civil War documentary, as well as from the quoted article.)

The Confederate army, during its march into Pennsylvania, routinely kidnapped blacks and sold them south. By the time Lee’s legions arrived in Gettys*burg, virtually all of the town’s free blacks had hidden or fled. On the morning of July 3, General George Pickett’s division prepared for its legendary charge. Nearby, where the Union forces were gathered, lived Abraham Brien, a free black farmer who rented out a house on his property to Mag Palmer and her family. One evening before the war, two slave-catchers had fallen upon Palmer as she made her way home. (After the passage of the Fugitive Slave Act, slave-catchers patrolled the North, making little distinction between freeborn blacks and runaways.) They bound her hands, but with help from a passerby, she fought them off, biting off a thumb of one of the hunters.

I highly recommend this article, and everything else Ta-Nehisi Coates has written on the Civil War: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/02/why-do-so-few-blacks-study-the-civil-war/308831/

Lee was an skilled general, but he is often whitewashed. That's why I saw the comparison between him and Thrawn: Thrawn was entirely willing to use to slavery, in the case of the Noghri; he was unquestionably fighting for the wrong side; and he was quite willing to cross moral lines, or allow his subordinates to do so. He was talented, he was respected by his opponents as something of a genius, and he certainly had a compelling presence, but he wasn't a good guy. In all those respects, he reminded me of Lee. (And to that degree, I feel a bit like Thrawn's later books like Survivor's Quest and Outbound Flight, whitewash Thrawn a little and feel a bit Imperial Lost Cause in their tone, and that the prequels about Mara do the same with other aspects of the Empire.)

Sorry to verge from the topic, but myth-making about the American Civil War is all too prevalent, so I think clarity on the subject is beneficial.

Respectfully,

Katherine

EDIT: I see this has been discussed previously in the thread as well.

hamishspence

2015-02-26, 07:18 AM

That same theme shows up in Ep. V when Luke is preparing to attempt to rescue Han and Leia. Yoda and Obi-wan both try to talk him down, both from this and his later attempt to redeem the Emperor. From their perspective his friendship with Han and Leia are liabilities, weaknesses which tempt him to passion, and passion leads to the Dark Side.

Zahn does portray Luke as having come to believe his TESB decision was the wrong decision, in TTT (The Last Command) when he has a vision of Leia coming under attack.

He explains to the Noghri why he's not rushing off to rescue Leia:

All right, Luke told himself, running through the Jedi calming techniques. All right. Lando had been in the vision—he distinctly remembered seeing Lando there. But Lando, as far as he knew, was still out at his Nomad City mining operation on Nkllon. Which meant Luke still had time to get back to Coruscant before the attack on Leia could happen.

Or did it? Was the vision a true image of the future? Or could a change in events alter what he'd seen? Difficult to see , Master Yoda had said of Luke's vision on Dagobah. Always in motion is the future. And if someone of Yoda's depth of knowledge in the Force had been unable to sift through the uncertainties...

"If you wish it, son of Vader, the commandos will seize the Imperial ship," Ovkhevam said. "If its people were destroyed quickly, there would be no word from it that would point blame at the Noghri."

"I can't let you do that," Luke shook his head. "It's too dangerous. There's no way to guarantee they wouldn't get a message off."

Ovkhevam drew himself up. "If the Lady Vader is in danger, the Noghri people are willing to take that risk."

Luke looked up at them, an odd sensation rippling through him. Those nightmare Noghri faces hadn't changed; but in the space of a heartbeat, Luke's perception of them had. No longer were they just another abstract set of alien features. Suddenly, they had become the faces of friends.

"The last time I had a vision like this, I rushed off without thinking to try and help," he told them quietly. "Not only didn't I help them any, but I also nearly cost them their own chance at escape." He looked down at his artificial right hand. Feeling again the ghostly memory of Vader's lightsaber slicing through his wrist... "And lost other things, too."

He looked back up at them. "I won't make that same mistake again. Not with the lives of the Noghri people at stake. I'll wait until the Imperial ship is gone."

Cikomyr

2015-02-26, 07:47 AM

pendell

2015-02-26, 09:05 AM

Except that Luke either never realized, or forgot, that his rushing to their help DID saved everybody.

He brought R2D2. Who single-handely saved the day like the min-maxed powergamer that he is.

- R2 opened all the doors for them to reach the Falcon
- R2 is the one who repaired the Hyperdrive

Without Luke disregarding his masters's advices, Leia, Chewie and Lando would never have escaped Cloud City.

That ... is an extremely good point. I'd never thought of it that way before.

And many thanks to Lady Eowyn for the discussion of Confederate Slave-taking in Maryland and Pennsylvania. That is also something I was unaware of. I learn so much here!

Moving on.

Chapter 31

EXOCRON ORBIT:

Karrde finds himself and his crew facing off alongside a token self-defence force against three Marauder corvettes, four Discril attack cruisers, for combat-modified freighters, and 18 Corsair starfighters.

Things look bad for the good guys. The Admiral in command orders all ships to retreat.

As soon as the pirates are in the gravity well and unable to escape to hyperspace , four gigantic ships of alien design pop in; not "emerge from hyperspace", simply appear as if from nowhere. And they dust the entire pirate armada in less time than it takes to tell it.

Admiral David explains that these are the Aing-Tii monks, a Force-using community similar to the Jedi who detest slavers with a passion, but for their own reasons they will not come much further into Republic space than the planet Exocron.

The pieces fall into place for Karrde; he and his crew have been used as bait! The people of Exocron anticipated that Rei'kas would track Karrde to Exocron in the hopes of wiping out Car'das, his competitor, and set up this trap accordingly.

David denies this; while they DID make use of Karrde's actions they had , in fact, offered Karrde stealthy transport to this planet. Karrde refused their offer, and insisted on going there in his own ship regardless of anything they could do or say. They only way they could stop him from acting as he did was to put a blaster bolt in his cranium, so they didn't try. Instead, they simply made use of his actions.

So I agree with them. It's on Karrde. What else were they supposed to do? Sit there and wait to be overrun?

More pieces fall into place for Karrde; he orders a message sent to Cardas on the planet's surface asking to meet him again. The answer comes back immediately: "Se'po brus tai". Come on down.

For this second visit Car'das has dropped the senile old man act and invites Karrde into his real home, not the little shack he uses to meet with the locals, and explains his story, interrupted constantly by Shada's mistrustful interjections.

Twenty years ago Car'das had been a smuggling chief like any other. Then a Dark Jedi commandeered his ship and forced him to fly to Dagobah. On the way, the Dark Jedi killed one of his crew and mindraped the rest, turning them into extensions of himself, much as C'baoth had mindraped General Covell in the last book.

The Dark Jedi travelled to Dagobah, for reasons Cardas still doesn't understand, and there Yoda met him.

And there Yoda killed him.

Zahn seems to assume that Yoda was living on Dagobah at the time; we can reconcile this by moving the dates around and assumed this either happened roughly in the window when Yoda was in exile after Ep. III, or by assuming Yoda travelled to the planet from Coruscant guided by Force Intuition.

None of the rest of Cardas' crew survived, but Yoda healed him.

From that moment it was as if he could do nothing wrong. He could anticipate his enemies' moves, everything he touched turn to gold.

And then his body came apart.

It seems that whatever force power Yoda put in him to keep him alive had been spent instead on his machinations. At any rate, the smuggler chief returned to seek out Yoda and demand more life.

This went about as well as you would expect.

After reducing Car'das to utter helplessness, Yoda told him that he would die and rebuked him for squandering the gift of life Yoda had given him.

Yoda cannot help him because Yoda needs all his power for another purpose --training Luke, although of course he would not reveal that to a smuggler chief. Instead, Cardas is sent here to the Aing-Tii monks. The Aing-tii do not see the Force the way the Jedi and Sith do. They think of it more as a full-color rainbow than simple "light" and "dark". Nonetheless, Yoda seemed to think well enough of them to put him in their care, where he has meditated on the force , both extending his own life and finding peace. Everything that once was of his old life he considers meaningless rubbish.

He's learned a few tricks too, such as being able to instantly teleport small objects around. Presumably a scaled-up ability of this Force technology is what the Aing-Tii used in the battle. It is a most useful capability because it means interstellar travel without hyperspace routes ; if you can visualize a destination you can get there instantaneously, regardless of obstacles or anomalies.

And, by the way, he's been through his library backwards and forwards repeatedly and could not find the Caamas document. he doesn't have it.

So this has been a wild goose chase as far as this book goes.
Zahn must have been intending to set this line of thinking up for future stories. I wonder if he ever followed up on it...?

Car'das offers Aing-Ti transportation which will instantaneously transport the Wild Karrde to anywhere Karrde wants to go, putting them back in the action.

Chapter 32

BOTHAWUI ORBIT:

Leia and Elegos arrive at Bothawui, where they are just in time to see the beginnings of a vicious incident -- an Ishhori capital ship moving to attack several Sif'krie skiffs. This could well be the shot that will start the war.

Leia acts quickly. She puts the Falcon on a collision course with the cruiser and uses the lightsaber to destroy her maneuvering thrusters. She then broadcasts a distress signal as Councilor Organa Solo.

The Ishori break off their attack to use their tractors to catch the Falcon and save the ship. While they do so a Diamalan ship moves to cover the skiffs.

The flashpoint is past. This one, anyway.

After the ship is repaired, she lands on the plane and briefs Gavrisom on their meeting with Pelleon and the proposal for peace. Leia doesn't like the idea of a renewed military offensive against the Empire because it would be a "slaughter".

...

Excuse me? These are the people who blew up Alderaan? YOU'RE AT WAR! You don't pull your punches because it's "not fair". If you are facing an enemy whom you have that overwhelming an advantage over, the thing to do is to force him to surrender unconditionally, NOT simply butcher him and NOT to let him get back up and catch his breath. Not unless you want your children's children to be fighting the same stupid war. The Russians didn't stop fighting the Germans before they were in Berlin, and neither should the Republic accept less than the Empire's unconditional surrender.

Gavrisom is more cynical -- he is reluctant to have either peace with the empire or a renewed military offensive because, as a common enemy, the threat of the Empire may help hold the alliance together.

Leia isn't happy about this at all. Gavrisom offers to let her resume her post as President (Supreme Chancellor). It is time that the time for words is over. Not yet, Leia said. The time for action may be soon, but the time for words is not yet over.

BOTHAWUI SURFACE:
Nevitt and his team are digging down to a power conduit of the shield generator -- as I expected, it appears they will release animals down this vector to destroy the generators. But no one knows that yet except them, of course.

Maranda calls security on them to report 'suspicious behavior'. The bumbling cops find nothing, of course, but they do distract the Imperials and delay their timetable.

The Imperials hide, and when they return Maranda has left a commlink in their work area. They exchange insults and banter. The Imperials resume their digging. Nevitt decides that tomorrow night he will go hunting Maranda with his Nightstinger. She's made this personal, a duel between them, and he's more than willing to use that fact to his advantage.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-26, 10:31 AM

Thrawn183

2015-02-26, 12:16 PM

The theme seems to be that while they're theoretically at war - in practice it's been an informal truce for the last few years. Hence, back in Specter of the Past, Wedge commenting on just how low their "level of readiness" is despite their being on the edge of Imperial Space: "It used to be that this close to Imperial space, you slept in your X-Wing."

It's like saying the US is currently at war with North Korea. Yeah, sorta...

pendell

2015-02-26, 12:27 PM

We signed an armistice with North Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Armistice_Agreement), and that armistice still holds. The Republic has signed no such armistice with the Empire.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-26, 12:30 PM

Which is exactly what Pellaeon is striving for - an armistice that is not an unconditional surrender.

pendell

2015-02-26, 12:34 PM

I don't think so; I think he wants a full peace treaty with the resumption of normal relations that would entail, not merely a cessation of conflict. For all intents and purposes, de facto he has that already.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2015-02-26, 12:42 PM

A bit of both - armistice first, peace treaty over the next few months after that.

Mercenary Pen

2015-02-26, 12:43 PM

I'm wondering- with all the reference to the side of Wedge Antilles and Corran Horn that we aren't seeing here- whether a case should be made for us moving onto the X-Wing series of books once we have finished with the hand of Thrawn duology... after all, Ysanne Isard was almost as fun a villain as Thrawn, in her own inimitable way...

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-26, 12:56 PM

Well, I certainly consider the X-Wing novels to be the close behind second-best set of EU novels. (With much of the rest of the EU novels far behind and behind a lot of the other EU material, e.g. the games...)

hamishspence

2015-02-26, 01:01 PM

How about other Zahn novels? We could discuss how far the "whitewashing" of Thrawn Mara and Pellaeon proceeds from book to book.

Cikomyr

2015-02-26, 01:46 PM

I wouldnt mind doing the first 4 X-Wings books. It will allow.our inner geeks to delve more into the military sci-fi part of Star Wars. Discussing things like the practicality of a Lancer Frigate, the point of using Proton Torpedoes against a single TIE Fighter, and more...

hamishspence

2015-02-26, 01:50 PM

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-26, 01:55 PM

As long as it doesn't derail into complaints about how "minimalist" that series is (kilojoules of energy for star fighter guns, terajoules for capital ship guns, torpedoes with only 30 seconds flight time, torpedoes that explode like conventional explosives instead of thermonuclear warheads, sending plenty of casing fragments everywhere, etc.)

Considering that the books were based on in the lineage of (i.e. prequel to) the greatest flight sim of all time (which is also one of the three greatest games, period, of all time), I think we can let it pass...

Cikomyr

2015-02-26, 01:56 PM

As long as it doesn't derail into complaints about how "minimalist" that series is (kilojoules of energy for star fighter guns, terajoules for capital ship guns, torpedoes with only 30 seconds flight time, torpedoes that explode like conventional explosives instead of thermonuclear warheads, sending plenty of casing fragments everywhere, etc.)

Id rather argue more in-universe things than out-of-universe physics..

I mean, my point about Proton Torp vs. Tie is that.. Well, we have seen in the past that the P-Torpedoes are anti-capital ship weapons. Relatively slow, and can 1-shot even small gunships.

Why waste them against the universe's most fragile and most agile spacecrafts?!

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-26, 02:00 PM

Id rather argue more in-universe things than out-of-universe physics..

I mean, my point about Proton Torp vs. Tie is that.. Well, we have seen in the past that the P-Torpedoes are anti-capital ship weapons. Relatively slow, and can 1-shot even small gunships.

Why waste them against the universe's most fragile and most agile spacecrafts?!

Actually, if TIE Fighter has taught us anything, it's that proton torpedoes are a bit pants, and you're better off with Concussion Missiles (if attacking fighters) or Heavy Rockets (if fighting capital ships). It's just typical rebel incompetance that three out of four of their primary fighters are basically hard-wired for the middle-of-the-road-not-all-that-good-at-either munition. Probably because they were easy to come by, since the Empire kept using all the decent warheads...

So, if you've got no choice, you may was well use 'em for something...

pendell

2015-02-26, 03:13 PM

Mercenary Pen

2015-02-26, 03:38 PM

As long as it doesn't derail into complaints about how "minimalist" that series is (kilojoules of energy for star fighter guns, terajoules for capital ship guns, torpedoes with only 30 seconds flight time, torpedoes that explode like conventional explosives instead of thermonuclear warheads, sending plenty of casing fragments everywhere, etc.)

Honestly, I'm not that worried about hard numbers, for me the attraction of the X-Wing novels (especially the books by Allston) has always been about the characters, put into deadly situations and forced to excel despite their many and varied flaws.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-26, 05:08 PM

In X-wing Alliance, Proton Torpedoes have something concussion missiles don't have; splash damage. Not helpful against shielded craft, but you can take out an entire flight group of 6 TIE bombers with a single torpedo. In Battle 6 mission 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpaE11YSPBQ), this is invaluable when facing off against swarms of unshielded craft. The pilot in the video apparently didn't know this, so he had a harder time than he needed to.

In X-wing, prudent use of proton torpedoes against starfighters could make the difference between mission success and mission failure; the brass were too busy showering me with medals to complain about the penny-pinching aspect.

It's war; there is no excuse for defeat, victory requires none.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

True. Though... Admittedly, it's been a while since I played XWA (not for lack of trying recently, though, since I can't even attempt it until the X-Wing Alliance Upgrade mod/patch comes back up, thanks Nvidia; would have been nice to have been able to XWA-test the stuff I've been preparing my table-top game for the convention this weekend), but I thought I recalled all the warheads had a blast radius.

Actually, didn't they in X-Wing? I may be conflating the two games - I don't think I played either to the extent I played TIE - but I think I half-remember doing that there...?

Of course, in TIE it would have been fairly useless, since you virtually never went up against shieldless craft. (Since half the time, you WERE the shielded craft.) And the fighters in TIE tend not to stay in formation as much, unless you catch them when they launch.

pendell

2015-02-26, 05:32 PM

In my X-wing collector's edition there was no blast radius; you had to physically tag a ship to damage it at all.

Even so, torpedoes could be useful because they were much faster than fighters and had an excellent chance of catching, say , a tie fighter on a run for a container that you couldn't possibly reach in time.

That is, as long as the TIE pilot flew a nice straight line. Torpedoes don't maneuver at all well.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Aotrs Commander

2015-02-26, 06:07 PM

russdm

2015-02-26, 07:51 PM

After the ship is repaired, she lands on the plane and briefs Gavrisom on their meeting with Pelleon and the proposal for peace. Leia doesn't like the idea of a renewed military offensive against the Empire because it would be a "slaughter".

...

Excuse me? These are the people who blew up Alderaan? YOU'RE AT WAR! You don't pull your punches because it's "not fair". If you are facing an enemy whom you have that overwhelming an advantage over, the thing to do is to force him to surrender unconditionally, NOT simply butcher him and NOT to let him get back up and catch his breath. Not unless you want your children's children to be fighting the same stupid war. The Russians didn't stop fighting the Germans before they were in Berlin, and neither should the Republic accept less than the Empire's unconditional surrender.

Gavrisom is more cynical -- he is reluctant to have either peace with the empire or a renewed military offensive because, as a common enemy, the threat of the Empire may help hold the alliance together.

Leia isn't happy about this at all. Gavrisom offers to let her resume her post as President (Supreme Chancellor). It is time that the time for words is over. Not yet, Leia said. The time for action may be soon, but the time for words is not yet over.

You have to remember that Leia just got back from a meeting with Admiral P about ending the way and the fact that Admiral P has essentially admitted that the Empire is going to lose to Leia. There is also the fact that the Empire is implied to be pretty weak and if the Republic attacked, it would overrun them easily. The Empire really doesn't have a chance.

I'm wondering- with all the reference to the side of Wedge Antilles and Corran Horn that we aren't seeing here- whether a case should be made for us moving onto the X-Wing series of books once we have finished with the hand of Thrawn duology... after all, Ysanne Isard was almost as fun a villain as Thrawn, in her own inimitable way...

Second doing this...

How about other Zahn novels? We could discuss how far the "whitewashing" of Thrawn Mara and Pellaeon proceeds from book to book.

Reading more of Zahn's quality work would be worth it as well.

I wouldnt mind doing the first 4 X-Wings books. It will allow.our inner geeks to delve more into the military sci-fi part of Star Wars. Discussing things like the practicality of a Lancer Frigate, the point of using Proton Torpedoes against a single TIE Fighter, and more...

Agree with this.

pendell

2015-02-27, 05:04 AM

I'm up for it, but I don't have the books so someone else will have to lead the read through .

Chapter 33
EXOCRON:
Shada sneaks through Car'das house to his library. She should know better. He confronts her. He knows full well what she's after: The history of Emberlene and its destroyers. Before he hands it over, he asks why she wants it; because it isn't justice that would result , but vengeance.

The reason Emberlene was destroyed, it turns out, was because at the time it was an aggressive military power which had conquered all of the surrounding systems, destroying or conquering a dozen worlds. The victims and potential victims could not individually resist, so they pooled their resources and hired a mercenary army. The fleet liberated the enslaved victims and destroyed Emberlene. They reaped what they sowed.

So it isn't justice to seek the destroyers of Emberlene -- justice was served when Emberlene lost its own eye in exchange for all the eyes it took. All that is left is vengeance.

Shada is upset. She has to work for something larger than herself, or what is she? The Republic doesn't want her, and she doesn't want Karrde because she wants to do something honorable, noble. Is that too much to ask?

Karrde reveals himself. He hadn't considered his information dealing to be not-noble, but he's willing to reconsider.

Now that they are both here, Cardas offers them the choice of two datacards: In his right hand he holds the history of Emberlene Shada came for. In his left.. a mysterious card, full of "useful information" , one which he will not explain but which he believes will be more beneficial for everyone in the long run.

Given the choice between past and future, vengeance and hope, Shada takes the card on the left, choosing hope and the unknown.

BOTHAWUI / COMET:
Captain Nalgol on the Tyrannic and his crew pace. To cure their restlessness, he permits them to make pre-battle preparations, although he fully expects Thrawn's plan will go off at the appointed time.

Chapter 34

UNKNOWN REGIONS:

Luke wakes up from his healing trance to find Mara not there. Using Force communication, he tracks her to an overlook where she is using a beacon call to guide the Jade's Fire on a kamikaze run on the base hanger, preventing anyone from taking off or landing from the base.

... wait, they don't have HNE? ...

It's her supreme sacrifice... the sacrifice expected of all Jedi, seemingly. They muse on the irony: The man who has spent his life serving others jeopardized that mission for the sake of the woman he loved. And that woman, who has lived for herself, is now sacrificing something very important to her for the sake of the New Republic.

Luke wants to use the Force to interfere, but Mara stops him.

Don't. Please don't. It's my sacrifice, don't you see? The final sacrifice every Jedi has to go through.

Luke puts his arm around Mara while she grieves for her ship. She suggests now is the time to sneak in while they're fighting that fire.

Child of Winds comes and tells them that the Threateners have invaded the Qom Jha nest. There's nothing Mara can do about it. When Child of Winds protests, Mara reminds him they promised only to do what they could, and at present that isn't much.

At any rate, they need to get back into the tower earlier they came across a passage which the Qom Jha warned them away from. Now, perhaps, is the time to find out what's down that corridor.

Child of Winds will get his friends together and they will fly Luke and Mara there. I was joking about Oz' flying monkeys earlier, but it seems that's just where Zahn is going with this. Where are the ruby slippers?

CHIMAERA:

Admiral Pelleon is attempting to learn more about Thrawn and being stalled by his officers. As he prepares to depart, an unknown ship arrives and hails Pelleon personally.

The speaker is a male voice speaking basic, with no obvious accent or inflections associated with nonhuman vocal equipment, a voice which is oddly familiar. The speaker states they DID meet once or twice.

Voice: I'm here to make you an offer, to give you something you very much want.

Pelleon: Really. I was unaware I was weighed down by any such unfulfilled desires.

Nonetheless, Pelleon is intrigued enough to bring their visitor aboard.

...
Who wants to bet it's Karrde aboard the monk's ship, bearing the mysterious datacard we saw last chapter?

Respectfully,

Brian P.