Describing challenges too big for the PCs

[Calimehter]

A recent thread reminded me that I've always wanted to ask this question here . . .

So, there comes a time when the PCs either face up against a randomly rolled CR+5 encounter or they wander off the rails and meet a nasty BBEG type well before they are ready to face it. The question is, how do you let the PCs know that they are in over their heads before they jump in feet first?

Somehow, saying the threat is big and scary and/or is wielding nasty magics doesn't seem good enough, because even 'appropriate' encounters can often be described as such. There are game mechanics that allow for hint dropping, such as Combat Intuition and Knowledge checks, but even optimized builds don't always have access to the right feats and skills for this sort of thing.

What do you guys do?

[Snowbluff]

Have the guys take them hostage and tie them up for an overly elaborate but easily escapable death if the PCs refuse to avoid the fight.

[goto124]

'He has a DC of 99999, and an AC of 666.'

:smalltongue:

Make sure there are alternatives, and make them VERY obvious. Like 'grabbing them by the shoulders and screaming in their ears' obvious.

[Calimehter]

Yeah, I did that once. The party tangled with advanced mind flayers *way* too early, and I captured one of them to have fun with later. "Keep rolling WIL saves and let me know when you fail one" is still a laughtrack standby at our table. :smallbiggrin:

Still, it would be nice sometimes to be able to dissuade the PCs *before* they dive nose-first into the pile of ***t. Sometimes the big nasty isn't the taking-prisoners type.

[Snowbluff]

Sometimes the big nasty isn't the taking-prisoners type.

What if he is madly in love with one of the PCs? :smalltongue:

[goto124]

What sort of players are involved? Don't want to have the situation as described in 'Did I screw up as a DM?' thread. Actually that DM did a good job, just that the player ran on video game logic, so you could look at that thread for ideas. It's new and in the DnD 3.5 section too.

[Seclora]

What if he is madly in love with one of the PCs? :smalltongue:
My inner Elan is wigging out a little right now over this plot twist!

That said, if your opponents can afford to take the penalty for non-lethal and still mop the floor with the PCs; why not? Anyone that easy to beat should be easy to control, right? Always room for a little extra manual labor on the next big evil works project.

And if they're not the type to take prisoners, consider dropping that as one of the warnings, describe corpses left out still wearing minor magic items that the bad guy simply has no use for. +1 daggers, and shields, so you don't break the economy, but to help convey the idea that this guy is so badass he doesn't even bother taking petty loot anymore.

[(Un)Inspired]

What if he is madly in love with one of the PCs? :smalltongue:

Now that's an adventure.

[Marlowe]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/thing_1.jpg

[Judge_Worm]

It depends on how out of their league it is. I've seen players make light of cr+5 challenges. I as a player have come out on top by using group tactics (not feats) on cr+10 challenges. If the fear of death isn't there, your not running a realistic game(not necessarily a bad thing). If a challenge ends in TPK with level 10+ characters just bring them back minus their gear by divine intervention, just make sure they had the opportunity to avoid the situation.

Also, if they're way out of their league, maybe the BBEG type encounter just doesn't care, the players can't overcome their DR, SR, or AC, so they just ignore them. This should be a big enough hint to leave well alone

[Brookshw]

Indirect: powerful foes show BBEG massive amounts of respect. BBEG keeps trophies around from some creatures massively more powerful than the party (assuming the party would recognize the trophies). General disdain or indifference towards the party, noses in the air folks! Big ol' bodyguards that should give the party pause sometimes can work (of course sometimes bodyguards are tougher than what they protect). Plant rumors along the way for the party to encounter.

Directly: Party has arcane sight probably right? Take a gander and OH MY GOD OH MY GOD ALL THE MAGIC THEY'RE CARRYING AROUND IT BURNS IT BURNS! Or, BBEG takes a look a party, shrugs, sends some minions to deal with it. Verbal cues help plus nothing like a good derisive villain dialogue, "ugh, more do-gooders. Deal with them".

[kaffalidjmah]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/thing_1.jpg

tonight, i will have nightmare.

beside that, sometimes i say to the proper character "make a martial lore/spellcraft/knowledge/bardic k/spot/random abilties check" and from case to case i just say "his posture is definitely of one great master of the nine discipline/the magic around him is much stronger than the one you radiate/holy crap is a [insert random moster]!!!/you recognize one of the emblem he is wearing, he is XXX leader of YYY that is rumored to do ZZZ to his enemy. you don't is a good idea fight him/his gear is awesome!, you can see that is armor is maded with dwarfed blacksteel, his sword is so filigranated that most probably have so much magic that will absorb your weapon etc etc/random stuff dependant on the ability check i called". usually with my player is enough, but hey, it depends on player.

[atemu1234]

Just remember how easy it is to run; maybe have some NPC show up and save them. I hate the DM Ex Machina, but it can be a useful tool for saving their bacon. Or, have them die and have some mysterious stranger resurrect them and send them on some quest.

[lytokk]

My normal signal to the PCs that I'm not exaggerating the difficulty of the encounter is to have a t-rex nearby. Not always the actual dinosaur, sometimes a wooden carving, a cloud in the sky that looks like one. Once, recently, the BBEG started barking orders to Tyronias Rex. Its the basic signal "go into this fight and you WILL die". Only one player so far has picked up on my theme, and luckily is able to get the group to go in a different direction.

[Snowbluff]

tonight, i will have nightmare.
I don't know about that. He seems like a nice guy.

Anyway, you BBEG could have a multitude of reasons to capture them. For example, he could plan to Geass one for an assassination.

[Bronk]

Just remember how easy it is to run; maybe have some NPC show up and save them. I hate the DM Ex Machina, but it can be a useful tool for saving their bacon. Or, have them die and have some mysterious stranger resurrect them and send them on some quest.

Alternately, the NPCs could be there to set the tone of running away... a nearby patrol of friendlies that they notice... they could break away from the fight, go and try to get them to jump in and help (so it doesn't feel like running away to them), only when they get there, the patrol freaks out and takes off, with barely any brave enough to pause to offer to take the battered PCs with them. Maybe enough stop to carry half the PCs on their horses as before galloping off, making the PCs that remain frantic as they try to flag down some of the others before they're gone. Maybe a diplomacy or charisma skill check followed by a ride check to be swung up behind someone at a full gallop? That could be fairly flavorful.

In any case, you should up the 'flavor text' for the entire encounter, and if you have a 'T-Rex' of your own (like in the prior examples) go to town with it. Maybe have the whole deal go down in a torrential downpour for extra atmosphere.

Oh, plus, if you don't usually break out terrain rules and such, that would be the time to do it. Minuses all around!

[Segev]

If possible, arrange to have the BBEG or other oversized threat talking to, engaged with, or other wise around some of his minions that are more the party's speed.

If the party comes in swinging, the BBEG tells his minions to "handle this," and casually exits. He has better things to do than deal with the PCs right now, and if they insist on attacking HIM to the exclusion of the lesser threats, he probably just nosells it by virture of saves and AC too high to touch.

If that's not possible, have him either spread his attacks across the party (if at least one could barely survive this spread), or have him turn on one PC and ash him. That is, destroy him so thoroughly that the sheer numbers you quote in terms of how much damage is done should paralyze the surviving players with...tactical concern.

Then give the surviving player a quick opportunity to take on a quest in return for somebody raising his compatriots from the dead, or a possibly longer-term quest to get the one destroyed PC ressurected. Maybe give the destroyed PC's player a backup character for the nonce.

Don't do this like you're punishing the players, but rather just as a flat out demonstration that this guy is totally out of their league right now.

[PsyBomb]

Had this happen a time or two, TPK resulted. The trick, for me, is letting them realize that it was avoidable, and that there were clues that they should have avoided it. Different players will want different things after the kill, some want to be rezzed and some take the opportunity to bring out a new character that they fancy.

... then again, the latest one ended up leading into a story arc based on Billy Joel's "River of Dreams" after they woke up, not realizing that they were Petitioners now and fighting for the right to become minor Celestials, that ended up fun.

[Shining Wrath]

Giving the BBEG an ancient wyrm red dragon as a pet usually does the trick. That is, the BBEG has an ally who the players will know is way over their heads, and will extrapolate from there that the BBEG himself is likely way over way over their heads.

[Bronk]

Giving the BBEG an ancient wyrm red dragon as a pet usually does the trick. That is, the BBEG has an ally who the players will know is way over their heads, and will extrapolate from there that the BBEG himself is likely way over way over their heads.

Or you could do the opposite, and pull a Worf... basically, have an NPC the PCs know is tough get defeated (killed, annihilated, etc.) to prove the BBEG is that much tougher.

Combine that with getting defeated by the minions for extra angst!

[Calimehter]

I don't know about that. He seems like a nice guy.

Eh, they all seem like that when they are trying to get you to take your gear off. :D

On a less cracked-pairings note: Some good ideas here. Some I've used, some I hadn't thought much about before. Thanks!

[Marlowe]

Eh, they all seem like that when they are trying to get you to take your gear off. :D


http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/bluff.jpg

[Snowbluff]

Sh! It destroys the illusion if people know Snowbluff rolls bluff!
1d20+42

[goto124]

Most importantly, do the players know it's a high-lethality campaign?

Otherwise they'll see all your 1000 watt neon danger signs and brush them off, then complain when they get TPKed.

[Marlowe]

Sh! It destroys the illusion if people know Snowbluff rolls bluff!
1d20+42

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/bluff2.jpg

[endur]

For me as a GM, having encounters that are too tough (EL > CR +4) makes the world seem more realistic too me.

Having said that, just because there are powerful forces in the world, doesn't mean that the PCs need to attack those powerful forces. And even if they do foolishly attack, they can flee, the BBEG can withdraw, etc. Spells like invisibility and teleport exist for a reason.

But how to describe powerful enemies so that the players realize that they are in over their head ... this is more difficult ... A wolf can be fearsome due to the textual description you use ... so how do you describe this wolf so that the PCs know it is that tough ... I would describe the opponent and not worry about the fact that this wolf is (EL>CR +4) ... i.e. suppose this is a dire wolf of legend, I would describe it using its dire and legendary characteristics, and if the PCs figure out this opponent is way too tough for them great, if not that's just the way it is.

Plus don't forget that CR/EL is just a guideline ... parties can be TPKed by level appropriate challenges, and parties can overcome challenges with an EL> CR +4.



A recent thread reminded me that I've always wanted to ask this question here . . .

So, there comes a time when the PCs either face up against a randomly rolled CR+5 encounter or they wander off the rails and meet a nasty BBEG type well before they are ready to face it. The question is, how do you let the PCs know that they are in over their heads before they jump in feet first?

Somehow, saying the threat is big and scary and/or is wielding nasty magics doesn't seem good enough, because even 'appropriate' encounters can often be described as such. There are game mechanics that allow for hint dropping, such as Combat Intuition and Knowledge checks, but even optimized builds don't always have access to the right feats and skills for this sort of thing.

What do you guys do?

[Eldariel]

It's up to the PCs to figure it out. My PCs know they will encounter things they are very unlikely to win; they have the tools to judge if an opponent is winnable or not (Sense Motive skill has the ability to gauge your adversary, for instance; many spells can be used in this purpose too, as well as some other skills). As a bonus, PCs usually don't go power crazy or gung-ho if they realize there's always a bigger fish. Of course, in some cases the PCs are so far beyond the creatures they might encounter that they simply don't pay attention to them. A Red Great Wyrm probably doesn't eat every human it ever flies over unless it happens to be hungry or be working on some ritual that requires few insignificant sacrifices or whatever. It normally has no particular reason to pay attention to some low-level adventurers, so the PCs might escape such an encounter due to simple indifference.

And of course, in some case, the encounter might have use for the PCs; they might be needed as couriers, baits, sacrifices, diplomats or whatever. It can well be a (non-benevolent) quest giver and the PCs gain their lives as rewards. Maybe a Geas or few and the PCs walk away scot-free, provided they don't go and try to work against it at any rate. Sure, they might have their own timed business to take care of; whatever, their lives take priority and having to perform a ritual for the fey on the way just makes scheduling things a bit more interesting. There's no fun in it without some bodies.

[Nibbens]

My normal signal to the PCs that I'm not exaggerating the difficulty of the encounter is to have a t-rex nearby. Not always the actual dinosaur, sometimes a wooden carving, a cloud in the sky that looks like one. Once, recently, the BBEG started barking orders to Tyronias Rex. Its the basic signal "go into this fight and you WILL die". Only one player so far has picked up on my theme, and luckily is able to get the group to go in a different direction.

I've read this once before and it actually came in handy with my group. I did some solo-sidequesting for my PC's one month and they tracked down rumors in the town and such. One player became "haunted" by a protective old man's spirit who could make the PC smell flowers.

Now, I had the PC come up with a backstory about how a particular scent of flower (I think I used Gladiolus, a sword lilly) reminded her of something both honorable but something that reminded her of caution at the same time. After the advent of that story, anytime the PC encounters something they are not supposed to fight, she smells Gladiolus flowers - reminding her of that time when caution was a good thing... etc etc. It's worked beautifully so far.

[jedipotter]

I do this couple of ways:

1. They never meet the Too Big Bad. No matter how far off the rails they go...they just will not meet the Too Big Bad.

2. The Too Big Bad just leaves. He can't be bothered right now. Though often he will toss Mongo at the PC's, and Mongo is just the right challenge level.

3. The Too Big Bad just mops the floor with them. Often this will just be an overwhelming type fight. Where Too Big Bad just takes out the group, often with a single thing. Most often it's not to the death, it's more like they will parallelize or such the PCs.

4. Decoy Too Big Bad. They defeat the foe....he falls down dead....and returns to it's natural form of Mook #3! This also works if you let ''real'' Big Bad #1 die.....but he is not the real Big Big Bad, as he takes orders from....Big Bad #2.

5. The demonstration. Kill an NPC. When the PC's see the Too Big Bad effortlessly kill Demi God Paladin.....they might think twice about attacking.

[Seerow]

The problem with the "It's up to the PCs to figure it out" responses is that frequently when you're looking at a CR that far above, by the time they can figure it out, they're already dead. There's just not really much way to know what the enemy is capable of until they chuck out a spell 3 spell levels higher than what the party can access, or pounce in and kill a character or two in the first round. If you're lucky the party might win initiative and waste their actions trying to attack an enemy they have no meaningful capability to affect, and figure out running might be a good idea just in time for the enemy to turn around and start swatting them like flies.

That's why I tend to dislike very high CR encounters. While it makes logical sense that they exist, unless they are very clearly telegraphed it is too easy to lose multiple characters or get a full TPK before the party even realizes they're overmatched. Much less runs away. And let's not forget that even if they do discover it and start running away, higher level creatures tend to come part and parcel with better mobility. You try running away, and if they care at all they almost certainly can follow you. In fact that level of mobility is almost what defines a higher level encounter (see: the Tarrasque who is ridiculed despite all of his stats because he can't keep up with an average group of 5th-8th level characters, much less the level 20 characters intended).

[Eldariel]

The problem with the "It's up to the PCs to figure it out" responses is that frequently when you're looking at a CR that far above, by the time they can figure it out, they're already dead. There's just not really much way to know what the enemy is capable of until they chuck out a spell 3 spell levels higher than what the party can access, or pounce in and kill a character or two in the first round. If you're lucky the party might win initiative and waste their actions trying to attack an enemy they have no meaningful capability to affect, and figure out running might be a good idea just in time for the enemy to turn around and start swatting them like flies.

But this assumes everything attacks everything they encounter on sight. Unless the encounter is of a faction clearly hostile with the PCs, I doubt they'd just attack without a warning most of the time unless we're talking about a hungry, animal intelligence predator (and most animal intelligence predators can be avoided with low level magic easily enough). It's a different matter if they know each other of course, but given how much the PCs travel and how big a world is, at least I often run such encounters with things that won't even necessarily attack you unless provoked. The party having someone scouting ahead/some way to acquire information at a distance can also pre-emptively avoid some more dire ambushes or unfortunate encounters, as well as just Teleporting around.

[big teej]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/thing_1.jpg

oh gods.

I can't.

*dies of suppressed laughter*

I wish you better luck in this endeavor than I've ever had, in my experience, both as player and GM, there is little-to-nothing that you can do to get some players to sit up and take notice that something's over their heads. descriptions work for some players, not for others, some people have trigger words that let them know "hey, if we do this, we're in for a bad time". and the like. I think unless you've made an example of someone('s characters) or trained them (by doing this often) then you might be stuck.

EDIT: I have lizardfolk potentially coming up in an adventure sunday, God help me, I *will* make this come up.

Marlowe is an awesome individual. slayer of audiences and buster of guts.

[Qwertystop]

The problem with the "It's up to the PCs to figure it out" responses is that frequently when you're looking at a CR that far above, by the time they can figure it out, they're already dead. There's just not really much way to know what the enemy is capable of until they chuck out a spell 3 spell levels higher than what the party can access, or pounce in and kill a character or two in the first round. If you're lucky the party might win initiative and waste their actions trying to attack an enemy they have no meaningful capability to affect, and figure out running might be a good idea just in time for the enemy to turn around and start swatting them like flies.

One option that comes to mind from this: it doesn't notice them, they get a surprise round. They fail to affect it, and it doesn't even notice them. d20 doesn't tend towards creatures with high defense and no offense, so that's a decent hint OOC, and even IC they can probably realize "hey, we can't do anything to this, if it turns out to be even a little dangerous we lose."

[Tragak]

The problem with the "It's up to the PCs to figure it out" responses is that frequently when you're looking at a CR that far above, by the time they can figure it out, they're already dead. There's just not really much way to know what the enemy is capable of until they chuck out a spell 3 spell levels higher than what the party can access, or pounce in and kill a character or two in the first round. If you're lucky the party might win initiative and waste their actions trying to attack an enemy they have no meaningful capability to affect, and figure out running might be a good idea just in time for the enemy to turn around and start swatting them like flies.

That's why I tend to dislike very high CR encounters. While it makes logical sense that they exist, unless they are very clearly telegraphed it is too easy to lose multiple characters or get a full TPK before the party even realizes they're overmatched. Much less runs away. And let's not forget that even if they do discover it and start running away, higher level creatures tend to come part and parcel with better mobility. You try running away, and if they care at all they almost certainly can follow you. In fact that level of mobility is almost what defines a higher level encounter (see: the Tarrasque who is ridiculed despite all of his stats because he can't keep up with an average group of 5th-8th level characters, much less the level 20 characters intended).


But this assumes everything attacks everything they encounter on sight. Unless the encounter is of a faction clearly hostile with the PCs, I doubt they'd just attack without a warning most of the time unless we're talking about a hungry, animal intelligence predator (and most animal intelligence predators can be avoided with low level magic easily enough). It's a different matter if they know each other of course, but given how much the PCs travel and how big a world is, at least I often run such encounters with things that won't even necessarily attack you unless provoked. The party having someone scouting ahead/some way to acquire information at a distance can also pre-emptively avoid some more dire ambushes or unfortunate encounters, as well as just Teleporting around. Actually, both of these assume the same thing: that the people at the table don't communicate out of game.

If the players would enjoy a game where some NPCs are far more powerful than they can manage, then you don't need to worry about them attacking everything. If the players wouldn't enjoy a game where some NPCs are far more powerful, then there's no point in adding such NPCs in the first place.

[oxybe]

Sometimes you need to tell them strait.

Describe the scenario and top it off with "... and you're sure that without any preparation it WILL kill you, that it's out of your league, and even with some prep you'll still have a very difficult road to travel."

Part of the issue is the "dragon warrior bridge" effect. If you've played the venerable dragon warrior series of games you'll know 2 things:

1 - there is no obvious indication that monster in a given area are significantly stronger then those in the area you're in right now. going from Slimes to Drakees might not seem like a big jump in the starter areas but crossing an unmarked boundary and suddenly bumping into MagiDrakees will ruin your day. This is the bane of many new players to the series, where your progress is killed without warning.

2 - bridges, thin pieces of land, cave systems, etc... are all visual indicators that show an experienced player (experienced with the game in question or the genre as a whole) that there is a difficulty ramp coming up.
http://lparchive.org/Dragon-Warrior-I/Update%2012/3-bi5e9k.png
That right there? The Dragon Warrior bridge in literal effect.

So how does this all come together. First of all, both DW and D&D are games where death can come pretty quickly. In both games, if you cross that bridge without knowing what you were getting into when you started playing, the monsters will likely go first and unload a powerful hit on you and even if you do go first, you might not have any effect on it. If you're still alive and try to run, the enemy is likely to have a higher speed or mobility and running might be difficult or impossible(so you might eat another blow while your back is turned and attempting to run), and finally even if you do run you still have to get to town or some sort of safe area to recover your wounds (so you might encounter other critters along the way, looking for a weakened meal).

When Oxybe was a little boy and first played DW at his cousin's place, she didn't tell him how tough the game was, so I was rather surprised when I got destroyed after pre-emptively leaving the safe zone. It took a few years before I dared to play again, and beat, the game.

D&D is the same way. If you don't make this intention clear, that there will be instances or areas where if the party wanders into it, they will get rolled, you might wind up alienating players who are playing it simply to be awesome fantasy heroes rather then playing conscripted and ill-trained dirt farmers. If you are playing the latter, they won't try to fight anything and everything as their experience with the game or genre tells them that they will have a bad time.

If you play the former and you want them to run, don't give a description and hope for the best: for them this is the GM giving them their time to overcome the beast and make a name for themselves... begin their legend. Tell them very overtly "This thing is more then you can handle. If you want to turn back, prepare and try to face it you can... it's not paying you any attention right now, if it's even noticed you. However even with some prep, you might not survive. It's that dangerous. You can go around it though." .

Remember that the player is not the character, but rather the player is interpreting what the character is seeing/hearing/interacting with. If you want the heroically-minded PCs to run, make it obvious.

[unbutu]

There's a lot of suggestions around here, but here's the only way that never failed me:

Put a warning encounter in front of your sure-death encounter:

If they are entering a lair, put very hard fights right at the beginning, and give hints that this is just the minions.

If they are meeting a rolled CR+5 encounter, add monsters to it that they meet before the encounter itself, and give them a chance to flee from these monsters first. Again giving hints that this kind of monster ''rarely are alone '' that '' there is a lot of other tracks, and bigger'' that they '' speak of being safe until all the group arrives''

Overall, don't be cryptic. Those are ways to make it sensible, and then just say what you have to say.

[j_spencer93]

Sometimes nothing works, i have tried alot of these and sometimes my players still go after the BBEG lol

[The Insanity]

I tell them.

[VeggieWombat]

Have the ennemy do some really badass thing (I'm looking at you 1st scene of Wrath of the righteous), and offer you PCs a discreet and obvious way of escaping.

[Calimehter]

they have the tools to judge if an opponent is winnable or not (Sense Motive skill has the ability to gauge your adversary, for instance; many spells can be used in this purpose too, as well as some other skills)

You know, I remembered that the Combat Intuition feat existed, but I hadn't actually read it in a while and I had totally forgotten about the alternative skill use for Sense Motive in CAdv that was only a few pages away that tied in with that feat. I will definitely keep that on a short list of options for my PCs and suggest it as an action if they have time (i.e. see the opponent far enough away). I run E9 generic classes with expanded skill points and all skills as class skills, so I fully expect that Sense Motive will be present in high ranks *somewhere* in the party.

As much as I like all the ideas about things like OOC hints and in-character descriptions and actions suggestions, its really nice to have a game mechanics fall-back like this.

[oxybe]

The problem with mechanics like that, where you want a mechanic to give the players a bit of information that's really important and they should know, is that the d20 is a fickle thing.

This isn't really too different, conceptually speaking, then if the PCs were looking for information vital to completing their current quest: what the mechanic is, at it's core, is information distribution. If the information is required for progress, don't have it be rolled by whatever NPC they're asking. Have the NPC know the information then give it to them, otherwise should the mechanics go belly up and the NPC fails to actually know the hint needed to progress, then the game can't progress or you're forced to ad-hoc something else. How willing the NPC is to divulge the information is another matter, however :smallwink:.

In this case if you want to make it clear that it's an enemy it's in their best interest to run away from: Tell them. Relying on a mechanic with a chance of failure means that there is a chance of failure. The PCs can fail their "am I over my head" check and continue to run headlong into death.

Make it clear and transparent: If you do X, you will likely die.