Help challenging my party!

[Falcos]

Hi all!

I have a party of casters, arcane casters being the unifying theme of my party (for story reasons and suchlike) and I need ways to challenge them.

I don't want to resort to just dropping an Anti-Magic Zone on their heads, but I want to have different ways to challenge them. Obviously there's the route of "Other casters counterspelling", the route of "Other casters who are just stronger than them", and the route of "Big scary things like dragons who just don't care about the majority of magics".

So, my request is for ideas to challenge them! Please, pull no punches. All official sourcebooks are permitted.

:D

[prufock]

It would help to have a little more detail. What kind of challenges have you tried already? What level and specific builds are they?

[Falcos]

Sorry, I meant to type in more info, then spaced entirely.

We have one wizard (who went into Mage of the Arcane Order), one Wu Jen, one Duskblade (who then took one level in Barb and went Rage Mage) and one homebrew Wavekeeper from these forums.

They're all level ten. Three of them aren't the most amazing players in the world, all but the Duskblade play pretty blast-y, but the Duskblade plays phenomenally. They're the best player I've ever seen and always notice the thread, so to speak, in any situation I place in front of him.

I've tried throwing the three I've mentioned already at them, and I'm designing session two now and realizing I need to turn difficulty up, even with their straightforward blasting.

The big scaly dragon kind of worked, but it got driven off. It's gonna be a recurring thing, but I can't just make every encounter it.

[Dysart]

Nice theme, always wanted to run a 'wizard school' type group myself but never got round to it.

Trip/Grapple mechanics:
These work very well at preventing spells from being cast (also the only way a fighter really has to beat a spellcaster) but can be prevented by "still spell" like abilities and quicker than normal casting speeds.

Readied actions:
Only really usable on intelligence 10+ characters or ones lead/controlled by such but it's a tactic that causes them to have higher concentrate checks to successfully cast spells.

High mobility:
Don't forget casting a spell (in most systems) draws an attack of opportunity (AoO) so if you have some creatures with high mobility can get into their threatened spaces before they have a chance to cast can cause concentration checks to cast defensively and then on following turns use the above option to interrupt them or add more difficulty to that check.

Necromancers/Thrall-o-mancers:
User enemy spellcasters who can do the same sort of thing as them but also come with a horde of minor goons who can do the above to interrupt/prevent spells. Though if you do this I'd suggest doing it rarely and only counterspelling area of effect type spells so that they don't get to wipe out all the summoned/controlled minions.

Wave mechanics:
It's not a great idea to do it too often but every once in a while send them against something that spawns a few waves of enemies. Something that is less about dealing with X amount of enemies and more about how thinly they can spread out their spells per day.

Last thing is that you don't always have to challenge them with combat. Depending on what type of spellcaster they are (Wizard/Sorcerer) they may have a limited repertoire. If this is the case and they don't work as a team to cover all bases then you might be able to challenge them with riddle challenges or even challenges that need things like Illusions and Charms to get past which they may or may not have access to at all.

[Falcos]

Ooh, some nice ideas in there.

Yeah, I apologize for my vagueness, so here's a specific rundown of my best description of how they fight.

Wizard: Blasts, pretty simply. He's fairly straightforward, although occasionally he'll skew off in really odd directions to do something I didn't expect.

Wu Jen: Is a fan of the spell Lightning Blade, and kind of alternates between gishing and blasting. Reads lots of theories about Wu Jens online, but is her first game, so isn't the most practiced about implementing them all yet.

Duskblade: Is really really intelligent (the player, that is, in addition to the character). I can't predict him, but the most reliable factor is that he tanks for the squishier members of the party.

Wavekeeper: Uses a small selection of spells with metamagic to do damage, primarily Ice Darts, using energy sub whenever cold is resisted.

I do apologize again for my vagueness earlier. I know I should have included more info from the get-go. :)

[prufock]

Well, as Dysart said, you can introduce ways to make it difficult for them to cast spells. Have an enemy sunder their spell component pouch, for instance. You can have them on a ship, in a storm, or otherwise distracted to force concentration checks, but they likely have concentration high enough that this isn't an issue. Have enemies use smart tactics, and mix and match a few low-CR swarming infantry using Aid Another and similar tactics paired with a big bruiser, led by an intelligent tactician (factotum is good for this) who directs them and dimension doors around the battlefield doing what needs to be done - the "floater." Enemies should use the environment as well, remembering that walls, trees, and so on can block line of effect. Give one of them a tower shield, or have some minion lackeys carry around a mobile wall.

Enemies with spell reflection (ranger ACF or occult slayer), spell immunity, spell resistance, spell turning, etc will pose more of a challenge as well. Golems in particular are difficult to deal with with straight blasting.

More importantly, remember that there are other types of challenges than just combat. Social, skill, investigative, puzzle, and other types of challenges mix things up, and definitely will make straightforward blasters think outside the box.

[Faily]

Lots of challenges and encounters that drain their resources, but difficulty in getting rest to regain it.

Casters can usually fix all sorts of problems by throwing enough spells at the problem. When they start to run dry and there's no way to replenish, that's when they need to resort to scrolls, wands, staffs and mundane means. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

So essentially your party is just glorified archers and swordsmen? Shouldn't be that hard to challenge them, then. Consider monsters that like to use illusions and deception - their firepower doesn't help them when the enemy is incorporeal and hiding in the walls, or hides among a dozen phantom duplicates.

[Dysart]

Obviously you don't want to do this everytime because it will become drastically unfun but if you want to challenge specific players here's some specific suggestions based on their character type:



Wizard: Blasts, pretty simply. He's fairly straightforward, although occasionally he'll skew off in really odd directions to do something I didn't expect.


Blaster wizards usually suffer from having minimal variation in spell types, aka all their spells hit hard but have saves for half, spell resistance or even energy type resistance.
So occasionally throw in a group of low level NPCs with Evasion, so when he tries to Fireball they all backflip out of it and are immune. Forces him to take them on 1 at a time.
Also they tend to use longer ranged spells, try to get some NPCs really close to him, maybe something like blinkdogs or displacer beasts that can teleport/dimension step super close.
Finally, cut him off from the group in a none lethal way and then force him to handle a situation without magic. So drop him down a long well if he doesn't have any ability to fly and force him to use the climb skill, something he's probably neglected.

Your aim with this is to try and sneakily teach him it's not a great idea to be a 1 trick pony, obviously though there's no point being malicious.



Wu Jen: Is a fan of the spell Lightning Blade, and kind of alternates between gishing and blasting. Reads lots of theories about Wu Jens online, but is her first game, so isn't the most practiced about implementing them all yet.


Ok so I don't know Wu Jen super well so I'd do a mixture of the Duskblade and Wizard tactics depending on wether she's used Lightning Blade yet. Maybe even put in a Electric resistant foe who is going to get in melee range with her.



Duskblade: Is really really intelligent (the player, that is, in addition to the character). I can't predict him, but the most reliable factor is that he tanks for the squishier members of the party.


Get him into a 1vs1 fight with something that he's tanking, maybe even initiate some grappling type scenario (something with trip for free like a wolf's bite would work well, I'm sure there's some that grapple too) and have that team up with another must-tank target so it injects some urgency into his fight. He probably likes being heroic and saving the others so try and get him in a position were he's desperate (without killing the rest of the party :smalltongue: )



Wavekeeper: Uses a small selection of spells with metamagic to do damage, primarily Ice Darts, using energy sub whenever cold is resisted.


User similar tactics as the wizard really, seems to be the same thing only even less pony tricks.

Finally, don't forget creatures with Reach tend to threaten at longer ranges than others. So you could have a giant threaten all of them at the same time with it's 10ft range, even if the Duskblade is tanking.

Don't forget to use things with Spell Resistance, but not too often otherwise it seems like the whole world is against them and they're being punished for the theme of the game.

As 'prufock' said, Golems work a treat for being immune to the usual blaster type spells and make the perfect pets of an evil Arcane spellcaster or group.

Oh and one last thing, wild magic areas are great... once. Wait until they're at the point were they break reality with super spells then shove them in a realm where it's total random affects... but only for 1 fight otherwise it seems like a punishment!

[Falcos]

Once more I am reassured that the GitP forums are a goldmine of information and help.

I've gotten a ton of ideas for encounters from this thread, thank you to you all.

(Still open to more, if there are any more people with ideas reading, though. :D)

[Karl Aegis]

Have you tried using monsters with an obvious win condition supported by monsters that actively help achieving that win condition? Take a pair of Half-Dragon Minotaur supported by kobold sorcerers. Half-Dragon Minotaur win by getting into melee at all. Kobold support them by two of them casting invisibility sphere, riding on the Minotaurs' shoulders and trying to dispel any buffs or illusions the casters might use to mitigate the effectiveness of the half-dragons. Another kobold readied a counterspell of glitterdust. Two others readied dispel magic in case of other invisibility sphere-breaking spells. Then, these three retreat behind cover or total cover and try to distract with illusions. Maybe use ghost sound on a tree to make it seem like the minotaurs are jumping between trees. Maybe make footprints on the ground going towards the party. Maybe they shake a tree. Whatever they do, make sure it advances the goal of getting the half-dragon minotaurs into attack range. They have flight speeds, massive hit points and massive strength. Your party should probably know not to try to "tank" CR 7 (if using elite array) each murder machines.