Expanding the hexblades spellist

[j_spencer93]

For someone focuses on curses and hexs, the hexblades spell list lacks alot (almost any) spells that do this. Would adding more curse spells to the list make the class better?
Most could be put in their respective spells levels, like curse of the putrid husk level 3, and maybe greater bestow curse as a 4th level, they would get it around the same time as everyone else.

[Snowbluff]

Not in particular. The problem would be that you can't invest into your casting stat too heavily and that you only have 4 levels of spells. Curses typically have a save DC meaning you wouldn't ever get one to hit.

[j_spencer93]

Ya i was aware of the DC problem but each time someone uses one it is mentioned they don't get any real hex's or curses and i actually agree with my players. it seems a little odd.

[j_spencer93]

Question about bestow curse, can you cast it on a target twice if you curse two different things?

[Snowbluff]

I'll give a tentative yes. The effects would be different and at an identical spell caster level, so it should work.

[j_spencer93]

that is what i was thinking but have seen it stated otherwise a few times. As for expanding hexblade thing, i think the problem is my players that like the whole curse/hex thing have no other class based around that alone.

[Snowbluff]

Well, no classes that do that ALONE. An Unseelie Aasimar hexblade/Blackguard/Warlock (With a Bestow Curse Evocation) is a great debuffer.

[j_spencer93]

lol although thought would be an awesome build for this idea. i meant thematically. there is not curse/hex based class besides the hexblade. for my players that like the whole curse thing it really is a let down, although their are some fey curse feats in some 3rd party book and a few curse related 1st party feats.

actually now i am curious to see a list of all curse spells, feats, class features in 3.x

[Snowbluff]

Well, that's the thing about 3.5. Hexblade is a bad class. It is one of the worse class. It has no flexibility whatsoever aside from like one or two really good spells. A class that only kind of does a curse thing? No good.

Better classes allow you to make them into whatever you want. You want a freaking curse character, you should go and build one. You have a ton of options that can accomplish the same goal as the hexblade but much more effectively.

[j_spencer93]

Ya i agree actually. I like hexblade, or rather i like what this could have been, but really there is not much you can do with it. no interesting PRCs, no synergy with anything else...really it needed far more support to even be close to good. Eh.
Even with more spells this class still has nothing really.

[Andion Isurand]

What if a prestige hexblade were made, similar to variants available for paladins, rangers and bards?

[j_spencer93]

To me, if done right, that would make it alot more appealing. actually would look alot like prestige paladin.

[Snowbluff]

What if a prestige hexblade were made, similar to variants available for paladins, rangers and bards?
Well, I call it a Blackguard. They get a small area debuff. You can extend the casting with a bunch of PrCs, since the casting goes up to fourth level.

[j_spencer93]

lol i like blackguard but i think he they meant, what if you actually turn it into a prestige class. would that make it better, or just as crappy? actually if its abilities were based on character level and it advanced spellcasting, basically copy prestige paladin but swap abilities for hexblade, it might not be bad.

[Snowbluff]

I know that, I'm just saying there is already a PrC that fills a similiar role. The blackguard has some really nice traits on top of that as well, like dragon mounts.

As for adding to the effect, trying some fear effects. Dreadful Wrath and Frightening Presence for starters.

[j_spencer93]

oh ok i see what you meant then lol. but in that same idea...there are over a dozen prestige paladin like classes. i don't think WOTC cared about overlapping roles.

[Psyren]

Just port in the Hexcrafter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/hexcrafter) Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) from PF. 3.5 has some nice curses you could add to their list too.

[j_spencer93]

I like hexcrafter magus, but we play a predominantly 3.5 game with some Pathfinder sprinkled in. And since this inquire about hexblade is more for my players, who dislike the magus, not me, it doesn't help.

[Snowbluff]

Just port in the Hexcrafter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/hexcrafter) Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) from PF. 3.5 has some nice curses you could add to their list too.

That being said, I do endorse Hexes, however insipid the parent class was. There's one to freeze people. We need more stuff like that. Cold stuff, because I'm such an ice guy.

[j_spencer93]

love cold themed things. is the witch a bad class? i was going to recommend it to the player who liked hexblade...

[Snowbluff]

love cold themed things. is the witch a bad class? i was going to recommend it to the player who liked hexblade...

I feel it's redundant. It's pretty much a wizard with class features... which is the PF Wizard. Weird, right?

Hexcrafter is much closer to the hexblade. If you're doing it PF and keeping things simple, that'd be my bet.

[Psyren]

I feel it's redundant. It's pretty much a wizard with class features... which is the PF Wizard. Weird, right?

I think they could have been the Wis-based arcane class. The fluff supports it (they are spiritual rather than scholastic, and halfway to being divine based on the power source and healing abilities) and there is a mechanical space for such a thing.

I do like the infinite-capacity living spellbook as well.

[j_spencer93]

looking over the witch, i think they should have just dropped spells and made it closer to warlock but named them hexes. could have flavored their abilities closer to witch stuff: toads, potions, etc.

ya honestly i like the hexcraft magus better, but i like the magus so prob not a fair assessment.

[The Viscount]

As far as curse/hex based characters, Warlock has a number of invocations that it wouldn't be out of field to call curses.

There's always the hexer PrC from Masters of the wild. It doesn't really need any adapting, and the good hexes are front loaded. Full casting and extra spells from the wizard list are pretty good incentives to stay, though.

[j_spencer93]

not bad, i actually was aware of the hexer but once again....not much to it. you get a gaze attack basically and thats it. but the spellcasting helps.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, that's the thing about 3.5. Hexblade is a bad class. It is one of the worse class. It has no flexibility whatsoever aside from like one or two really good spells. A class that only kind of does a curse thing? No good.

I'd beg to differ, even if I agree with you to an extent. To say the Hexblade is a bad class...well, it's certainly not a good class, nor a great class, much less the Wizard. However, I wouldn't say that it's one of the worst classes; that kind of vitriol I only reserve for a class a few pages later (the CW Samurai, which is on the same friggin' book!)

You see, while the Hexblade didn't got that much support, it is somewhat flexible. It has more stuff than the curse - a complementary debuffing aura, a familiar (or Dark Companion), a good amount of weapon proficiencies, and IIRC even bonus feats, which is something the Paladin can't boast about unless it sacrifices its spellcasting. It got extra support on other books, though not as much as, say, the Blackguard (IIRC, Complete Mage got it a few more spells). Being a martial class to an extent, it also has access to just about every feat meant for martial characters.

It suffers from two things, though - a narrow focus and being developed too early in 3.5's life. The first is somewhat ambiguous, because the Hexblade is supposed to do well at two places - combat, and debuffing. As a combatant, it suffers from a lack of heavy armor proficiency, since it has to wear light armor to prevent ASF; Battle Caster takes that to Medium. The problem is on the second area, which is debuffing - the Hexblade relies mostly on spells and Charisma to enable debuffing, and it'd take a while to exploit this so that the Hexblade could compete (i.e., Brutal Strike with a bludgeoning weapon for the sickened condition, Stunning Surge to have a solid way to stun opponents with a variety of uses per day, Intimidating Strike to demoralize as part of an attack, Insidious Command + Never Outnumbered for AoE cowering + shaken). That makes it a slow debuffer, but optimized well, it can be pretty nasty (Sicken + Shaken is already a -4 to all saving throws; pop off a Hexblade's Curse and see the opponent crash and burn on your own spells, let alone those of your opponents).

That said, it only focuses on one of those strategies - either you fight well, or you seek to support your party via debuffs, of which a good deal rely on hitting the weakest save and hope it succeeds (on the other hand, most Hexblade spells are from the Necromancy subschool, meaning Spell Focus [Necromancy] and Ability Focus [Hexblade's Curse] are good feats). The Hexblade spell list doesn't have much flexibility, and its lack of support from subsequent books (in comparison to Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Bards who got new spells every book) pretty much sealed the deal. Developed later on the edition's life, the Hexblade would have received some support; at least it had more support than other classes (I'm speaking to you, Marshal; Mythic Exemplar is NOT supportive, and granting them draconic auras isn't that amazing). There's other classes that are worse than the Hexblade and can be certified as such, as I mentioned (even without counting the NPCs; of the three CW classes, Hexblade is the best barring Daring Outlaw and taking one or two levels of Rogue with Swashbuckler. Also, Healer.)

That said, to be on topic: if you want to expand the Hexblade's spell list, consider a few Abjurations and Transmutations as well. Think of Break Enchantment as your nemesis - anything that Break Enchantment can dispel, you should be able to do (to an extent). That means Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph, etc. Transmutations also have some solid buffs, like Enlarge Person, that could improve its combat skills. You need to perceive the Hexblade as a whole - if you think of it as ONLY a class that specializes in hexes and curses, many classes got you beat there (the Wizard alone is a better debuffer than you, but then again, it IS the best class in the game). If you perceive it as a warrior with some debuffs tagged in, you'll tap its fullest potential. That wouldn't make the class broken; to do so, you'd have to beat, say, the Bard on its own game, and that's nowhere near close (then again, the Bard isn't a premier debuffer, even if it dabbles on it), or at the very least a Warlock (which has a few more curses than you).

[Mr Adventurer]

My quick Hexblade fix*:

It's a Duskblade ACF. You give up Arcane Channelling in exchange for the Curse (also improved so that it's a swift action if it isn't already and doesn't allow a save). You get the Hexblade spells on your class spell list.

* well, improvement at least of not an actual balance fix :P