Rage Mage

[Henrizzlebear]

Hey everyone,
I've been kicking around the idea of making a 5e version of the rage mage, a barbarian/spellcaster prestige class from 3.5's Complete Warrior. My thoughts were that I could make it as another Primal Path for the barbarian. Here are a couple features that I've been toying with:
- Spell rage (letting you cast and concentrate on spells in rage)
- increase your concentration limit by 1
- casting stat to Unarmored Defense and/or damage

Does anyone else have ideas or thoughts on this as a path?

Many thanks.

[Eslin]

Hey everyone,
I've been kicking around the idea of making a 5e version of the rage mage, a barbarian/spellcaster prestige class from 3.5's Complete Warrior. My thoughts were that I could make it as another Primal Path for the barbarian. Here are a couple features that I've been toying with:
- Spell rage (letting you cast and concentrate on spells in rage)
- increase your concentration limit by 1
- casting stat to Unarmored Defense and/or damage

Does anyone else have ideas or thoughts on this as a path?

Many thanks.

Don't do the double concentration thing, doesn't fit. If you want something barbarian and concentration based, why not give him a bonus to concentration saves? Being better at constitution stuff is a much more barbarian-y ability.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Is this going to be a 1/3rd, 1/2 or full caster? Which spell list where you planning on using?

I'd suggest using CHA as the casting stat, since there's a bit of synergy there with Barb Intimidation. Plus the idea of a high INT, spellcasting raging barbarian is a bit much.

Assuming something like the Arcane trickster or Eldritch knight, you could give him the arcane list but limit him to two schools, say Transmutation and Enchantment (I'd have to dig through the spell lists to make a more informed choice.)

Then you need a 3rd level, 6th level, 10th level and 14th level features. What do you want to base them around? Hitting and Casting, like the EK, or did you have something else in mind?

[Fwiffo86]

Hey everyone,
I've been kicking around the idea of making a 5e version of the rage mage, a barbarian/spellcaster prestige class from 3.5's Complete Warrior. My thoughts were that I could make it as another Primal Path for the barbarian. Here are a couple features that I've been toying with:
- Spell rage (letting you cast and concentrate on spells in rage)
- increase your concentration limit by 1
- casting stat to Unarmored Defense and/or damage

Does anyone else have ideas or thoughts on this as a path?

Many thanks.

I agree with Eslin, double concentration in anyone's hands is broken and should be avoided. Question, what about allowing spellcasting while raging, but you can't concentrate on spells. Limited to flash effects only. Then you wouldn't have to worry about concentration rolls anyway.

[Henrizzlebear]

The intent with the increased concentration is twofold:
1) It is to increase the number of buffs the barbarian can buff himself with
2) It represents "mental fortitude"

However, these are simply ideas I'm throwing out there to start discussion, not finalized, concrete class features.

[Fwiffo86]

Fair.

Though my brain has trouble justifying concentration on a brain that is so focused (or lack of if you will) on one thing. I suppose a bonus to Con is warranted when thinking like that.

I would reduce the physical benefits of raging a little bit, if not entirely depending on how big a casting buff you work out.

[kaoskonfety]

No one gets "more concentration", no class or race or feature or feat. I cannot think of a compelling reason to give it to this specialization - if you do it will become the go-to multi-class for casters just for that.

[Eslin]

I agree with Eslin, double concentration in anyone's hands is broken and should be avoided. Question, what about allowing spellcasting while raging, but you can't concentrate on spells. Limited to flash effects only. Then you wouldn't have to worry about concentration rolls anyway.

Double concentration already exists, sorcerers can do it with buffs. I'm fine with double concentration as a limited use ability (2/day for a caster subclass, say) or for very specific types of spells, it should just be special and not particularly easy to access. As a general use ability for a class that can't even concentrate normally, it doesn't fit.

As to the spells, perhaps give them level 1-4 spells or 1-5 spells from the druid list?


No one gets "more concentration", no class or race or feature or feat. I cannot think of a compelling reason to give it to this specialization - if you do it will become the go-to multi-class for casters just for that.
Untrue. But you're right in that it doesn't fit barbarian - perhaps give them the warcaster feat for free? Fits them well.

[Fwiffo86]

Double concentration already exists, sorcerers can do it with buffs. I'm fine with double concentration as a limited use ability (2/day for a caster subclass, say) or for very specific types of spells, it should just be special and not particularly easy to access. As a general use ability for a class that can't even concentrate normally, it doesn't fit.

As to the spells, perhaps give them level 1-4 spells or 1-5 spells from the druid list?

I guess you mean twinning a concentration spell. Isn't that still just one concentration check? Lose it, and lose both spells? That says one concentration slot to me.

[Eslin]

I guess you mean twinning a concentration spell. Isn't that still just one concentration check? Lose it, and lose both spells? That says one concentration slot to me.

That's still doubling your concentration. If you had two seperate concentration slots you'd still have the same chance to lose both, it'd just go from either you lose both or keep both to lose both, keep a lose b, keep b lose a, keep both. Statistically identical chance to lose concentration on either, just more of a spread of possibilities.

Except for the whole AB/ab vs AB/Ab/bA/ab thing, they're identical for the same spell - it's functionally doubling your concentration. Which isn't a bad thing, it's strong without being overpowered and it's unique which is fun - once again, fine with more double concentration mechanics so long as they have restrictions. If enchantment wizard had a function allowing you to concentrate on two enchantment spells at once, for instance.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Ideas for features for the Rage Mage:

-If raging, does not need material or somatic components to cast, unless the material components would be consumed by the spell.

-If raging and within 5' of the target of a spell, suffer no disadvantage from casting in melee, gain advantage on spell attack rolls, and the target suffers disadvantage on any saving throw from the spell.

-If you take an action to grapple the target and succeed, you may use a touch-range spell or cantrip on the grappled enemy as a bonus action.

[kaoskonfety]

Double concentration already exists, sorcerers can do it with buffs.

I assume twin casting? So multi class this with Sorcerer and have 4 spells up and being concentrated on? I'll take 2!

Metamagic is the Sorcerer class primary 'thing'. They can barely squeeze this out on a technicality (I would point out they are only concentrating on one "thing" there are just 2 characters buffed for that one thing)

[Henrizzlebear]

I was thinking some mixture of buffs for the spell list, such that they still are "physical" characters, just augmented with their magic.

[Henrizzlebear]

Also, the ability to double concentrate would be fairly far down the tree, such that multiclassing would not be viable.

[CrusaderJoe]

Hey everyone,
I've been kicking around the idea of making a 5e version of the rage mage, a barbarian/spellcaster prestige class from 3.5's Complete Warrior. My thoughts were that I could make it as another Primal Path for the barbarian. Here are a couple features that I've been toying with:
- Spell rage (letting you cast and concentrate on spells in rage)
- increase your concentration limit by 1
- casting stat to Unarmored Defense and/or damage

Does anyone else have ideas or thoughts on this as a path?

Many thanks.

Barbarian 6/Sorcerer 15

You get everything from the Barbarian that makes it a barbarian (and you get ASI and Extra Attack)

You get wings from the sorcerer (better than eagle totem) and you get up to 8th level spells and tons of metamagic.

Can you cast spells while raging? No. But you can cast spells when you are using reckless attack. I see reckless attack as a Rage mechanic in itself. Make reckless attack your normal rage and rage your... Well gone to far to be reached rage.

So instead of home brewing you can just Multiclassing and get pretty much the same thing. You get proficiency in Con saves for concentration spells, so if you cast first then go into battle you have a good chance of keeping your spells up.

[Eslin]

I assume twin casting? So multi class this with Sorcerer and have 4 spells up and being concentrated on? I'll take 2!

Metamagic is the Sorcerer class primary 'thing'. They can barely squeeze this out on a technicality (I would point out they are only concentrating on one "thing" there are just 2 characters buffed for that one thing)
Which is why rage mage shouldn't have it. It should be something restricted in use, not just able to be used all the time or on any spell and certainly not on barbarian.


Also, the ability to double concentrate would be fairly far down the tree, such that multiclassing would not be viable.
There's no real reason to have it, man. Why do you like the idea so much? It doesn't really mesh with the barbarian aspect at all - being able to concentrate at all while raging is quite a feat, being better at it than a caster who has spent their whole life practicing magic is kind of silly.

[Fwiffo86]

Barbarian 6/Sorcerer 15


21 character levels.

[CrusaderJoe]

21 character levels.

My 5 and 6 are right next to each other and I'm dealing with a phone.

But yeah, take barbarian till you get extra attack and then mage it up.

[Fwiffo86]

My 5 and 6 are right next to each other and I'm dealing with a phone.

How dare the phone interrupt your posting!! Fire it immediately!

[Henrizzlebear]

There's no real reason to have it, man. Why do you like the idea so much? It doesn't really mesh with the barbarian aspect at all - being able to concentrate at all while raging is quite a feat, being better at it than a caster who has spent their whole life practicing magic is kind of silly.

It's not so much that I am in love with the idea, I just feel that many of you are needlessly shooting it down when it has the potential to be worked into a potent and flavorful class feature.

[Henrizzlebear]

So instead of home brewing you can just Multiclassing and get pretty much the same thing. You get proficiency in Con saves for concentration spells, so if you cast first then go into battle you have a good chance of keeping your spells up.

The same argument could be made against the inclusion of the Eldritch Knight class. The primary reason for both of these is that, while multiclassing might be more optimized, having a single class is a) more flavorful and 2) simpler for players to understand. Also, the inclusion of spellrage is something that can not be replicated with a multiclassed combination.

[CrusaderJoe]

The same argument could be made against the inclusion of the Eldritch Knight class. The primary reason for both of these is that, while multiclassing might be more optimized, having a single class is a) more flavorful and 2) simpler for players to understand. Also, the inclusion of spellrage is something that can not be replicated with a multiclassed combination.

You might want to try the homebrew section of this forum if you are home brewing.

1: Flavor is an opinion. Having Multiclassing versus single class flavor debate is silly. Flavor is a fluff issue not a mechanical issue.

2: Multiclassing a martial and caster is pretty simple. I'm not sure how or why someone would think MC barbarian/sorcerer is any harder than going straight class.

3: Spell Rage: as I said, using reckless attack as your "rage" you can still cast spells and have your rage mage.

Your issue seems to be taken care of by two things. Existing mechanics and fluff. Fluff can always be changed, that's up to you. If you don't want 8th level spells then you can take more levels of barbarians.

I'm not saying don't homebrew, I love homebrew, but what you want is already provided through the game itself. But if you are going to homebrew then the homebrew section is a better place to do it.

[Person_Man]

I agree with the suggestions above. I personally would structure it like this:

3rd level: 1/3 spellcasting from a very limited and thematic list, using Charisma as the primary casting stat, similar to the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, and the ability to cast spells and maintain Concentration while in a Rage.

6th level: Combat Casting: You may ignore the somatic and material components required to cast a spell or cantrip, unless the material component would be consumed as part of the spell.

10th level: Furious Focus: While in a Rage, you double your Proficiency bonus to any Saving Throw made to maintain Concentration. (Basically Expertise for Concentration checks). In addition, if you fail a Saving Throw to maintain Concentration, you may choose to sacrifice one of your remaining Rage uses in order to change the result into a success, though you must have at least one Rage use remaining to do so.

14th level: Grappling Spell: You gain Advantage on any attack roll made for a spell or cantrip you cast against a creature you are Grappled with, and enemies you are Grappled with have Disadvantage on any Saving Throw against any spell or cantrip that you cast. (In other words, you need to first use an attack to Grapple an enemy, and then then next round if they haven't escaped you'll probably succeed with your spell or cantrip against them).

They may not seem like huge/amazing abilities, but keep in mind that you would be getting additional spells as you gain levels, and the Barbarian's subclass abilities are for the most part not huge/amazing to start with. If the spell list is good enough, then it can certainly compensate.

[Henrizzlebear]

If we could briefly halt the debate as to whether this Path needs to exist, and return to the point of this thread, which is to brainstorm interesting traits for the Path, that would be appreciated.

[Envyus]

Double concentration already exists, sorcerers can do it with buffs.


No that's not double Concentration that's twinned Concentration. That just using the same concentration spell on two targets like Haste. What Double Concentration means here is the power to use two different concentration spells at the same time. Much more powerful and abusable. And unlike Twin it can be used on the same target.

[BRKNdevil]

I have also been screwing around and trying to make a primal path based on the rage mage, but i'm also basing it on the pathfinder hybrid base class the bloodrager. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager

and this is what i got so far.


Bloodrager Barbarian Primal Path
3rd 6th 10th 14th
3rd
Gain Spellcasting 1/3 Charisma Based with Eldritch knight spells known progression
Bloodrage
Count as having a spell focus while raging
Can cast while raging

6th
Can now concentrate while raging
Cast one spell when you choose to rage
It must be targeting you or when you do so or have a range of touch or self and target you or your possessions.

10th
3 choices?

14th
3 Choices?



At which point, i suddenly became bored with the incomplete concept and moved on since i didn't know where to go from there.
Some of the more interesting things that the bloodrager had was the different bloodlines changing how the character was played in minor ways. I figured that would be reflected in the 10th and 14th levels.

[DireSickFish]

I agree with the suggestions above. I personally would structure it like this:

3rd level: 1/3 spellcasting from a very limited and thematic list, using Charisma as the primary casting stat, similar to the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, and the ability to cast spells and maintain Concentration while in a Rage.

6th level: Combat Casting: You may ignore the somatic and material components required to cast a spell or cantrip, unless the material component would be consumed as part of the spell.

10th level: Furious Focus: While in a Rage, you double your Proficiency bonus to any Saving Throw made to maintain Concentration. (Basically Expertise for Concentration checks). In addition, if you fail a Saving Throw to maintain Concentration, you may choose to sacrifice one of your remaining Rage uses in order to change the result into a success, though you must have at least one Rage use remaining to do so.

14th level: Grappling Spell: You gain Advantage on any attack roll made for a spell or cantrip you cast against a creature you are Grappled with, and enemies you are Grappled with have Disadvantage on any Saving Throw against any spell or cantrip that you cast. (In other words, you need to first use an attack to Grapple an enemy, and then then next round if they haven't escaped you'll probably succeed with your spell or cantrip against them).

They may not seem like huge/amazing abilities, but keep in mind that you would be getting additional spells as you gain levels, and the Barbarian's subclass abilities are for the most part not huge/amazing to start with. If the spell list is good enough, then it can certainly compensate.

I think this is the best suggestion so far. Well structured. I'd make sure that when spellcasting in rage comes online that if you cast a spell or deal damage with a spell that keeps your rage going. As you have the ability to cast as you have it now but would fall out of rage if not hit.

What two schools encapsulate the barbarian?

I'd trade the lvl14 ability out for something like BRKNdevil's lvl6 ability.

lvl14 Instant Spellrager: When entering a rage any spell the Barbarian knows with a target of self and a casting time of no more than 1 action can be cast at no action cost.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

lvl14 Instant Spellrager: When entering a rage any spell the Barbarian knows with a target of self and a casting time of no more than 1 action can be cast at no action cost.

I'm wary of putting a 0 action cost on it, even as a rider to an action that takes a bonus action. It's not breaking the action economy, but it is bending it hard.

On second thought, at lvl 14, and limited only to self-buffs its not broken. Easily curtailed through a careful spell-list selection. I'd just carefully watch for possible exploits among spells that are "a target of self and a casting time of no more than 1 action".

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

On the subject of a spell list, I think it'll need to be a custom list. It's hard to create something thematic with the same structure as EK or AT (i.e. two schools, wizard only, with the option of taking a spell from any school once every bunch of levels.). The closest I could get using that structure was to limit to the schools of Transmutation and Enchantment (to be distinct from EK, and it has a more nature/wild feel) and either from one of the Wizard or Druid list (I can't decide which is better). If there's an option for any spell school once in awhile, then the Druid list gives access to healing spells, which I personally find problematic.

There's also potential problem spells like polymorph and fabricate being on the lists. I guess it's not really a big problem, since by the time the barb had a lvl 4 spell, his DC from likely low Charisma wouldn't be effective with it versus level appropriate opponents.

I'm just as decisive in real life by the way.

[Eslin]

On the subject of a spell list, I think it'll need to be a custom list. It's hard to create something thematic with the same structure as EK or AT (i.e. two schools, wizard only, with the option of taking a spell from any school once every bunch of levels.). The closest I could get using that structure was to limit to the schools of Transmutation and Enchantment (to be distinct from EK, and it has a more nature/wild feel) and either from one of the Wizard or Druid list (I can't decide which is better). If there's an option for any spell school once in awhile, then the Druid list gives access to healing spells, which I personally find problematic.

There's also potential problem spells like polymorph and fabricate being on the lists. I guess it's not really a big problem, since by the time the barb had a lvl 4 spell, his DC from likely low Charisma wouldn't be effective with it versus level appropriate opponents.

I'm just as decisive in real life by the way.

Enchantment doesn't really fit barbarian at all. Why not just give them spells from the druid list? They share a nature theme.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Enchantment doesn't really fit barbarian at all. Why not just give them spells from the druid list? They share a nature theme.

I chose enchantment since I needed a second school, and really none of them fit particularly well. Enchantment at least played off the intimidation/social factor of the barb, and has spells like hold person (a.k.a magic grapple) and dominate beast.

I didn't want to give the entirety of the druid list since it contains healing spells and a number of conjuration spells that I was looking to avoid. Conjuration generally is the domain of the full casters (with the notable exceptions of Find Steed and a handful of Ranger spells). I didn't want to break with that.

[Eslin]

I chose enchantment since I needed a second school, and really none of them fit particularly well. Enchantment at least played off the intimidation/social factor of the barb, and has spells like hold person (a.k.a magic grapple) and dominate beast.

I didn't want to give the entirety of the druid list since it contains healing spells and a number of conjuration spells that I was looking to avoid. Conjuration generally is the domain of the full casters (with the notable exceptions of Find Steed and a handful of Ranger spells). I didn't want to break with that.

What's wrong with them having healing spells? And rangers are the closest class to barbarians fluff wise, not seeing the problem there.

[DireSickFish]

What's wrong with them having healing spells? And rangers are the closest class to barbarians fluff wise, not seeing the problem there.

I wouldn't want him using the druid spell list because of the fluff. Sure the totem barbarian is close to nature lore wise, but not every single barbarian is. The rage mage, as exemplified in the 3.5 class, is an arcane caster that gets benefits to spellcasting and melee when he goes into a rage. It's much like a sorcerer that taps into the weave by just getting angry.

The OP also seems to see the Rage Mage as a kind of self buffer, as exemplified by some of his posts. So that's why I'd lean strongly on Transmutation and/or abjuration for spells. It's also why I replaced the lvl14 ability Person_Man suggested because I didn't like the grappling focus and thought the "I get so mad my magic just makes me better" aspect of it.

While a divine 1/3 caster would be workable and not OP I don't think it fits the theme, and I also think it steps on the Rangers toes a bit.

[Eslin]

I wouldn't want him using the druid spell list because of the fluff. Sure the totem barbarian is close to nature lore wise, but not every single barbarian is. The rage mage, as exemplified in the 3.5 class, is an arcane caster that gets benefits to spellcasting and melee when he goes into a rage. It's much like a sorcerer that taps into the weave by just getting angry.

The OP also seems to see the Rage Mage as a kind of self buffer, as exemplified by some of his posts. So that's why I'd lean strongly on Transmutation and/or abjuration for spells. It's also why I replaced the lvl14 ability Person_Man suggested because I didn't like the grappling focus and thought the "I get so mad my magic just makes me better" aspect of it.

While a divine 1/3 caster would be workable and not OP I don't think it fits the theme, and I also think it steps on the Rangers toes a bit.

Yeah but ranger's kind of crap. It's like the warblade stepping on the fighter's toes, nobody cared. Still, you seem to have the solution there - transmutation and abjuration works perfectly.

Though on that note, I'd advise against that, since self buffing increases something the things barbarians are very good at already - if you give the barbarian spells focused on improving what he's already good at, you have to be very careful and restrained in what you add to prevent him from far outstripping everyone else, whereas if you add a bunch of blasting spells you have a lot more freedom of action, since barbarians can already damage well with other methods. It's like giving 5 strength to a class - if it's a fighter you just made it overpowered, if it's a wizard all you did is add something interesting.

[DireSickFish]

Yeah but ranger's kind of crap. It's like the warblade stepping on the fighter's toes, nobody cared. Still, you seem to have the solution there - transmutation and abjuration works perfectly.

I don't have the spell list sorted by school in this edition so I don't really know for sure. Thematically they sound like what the OP is going for but I'd like someone with more spell knowledge than myself to look into it. Haven't played many spell-casters yet so I don't really know what is possible and by who in this edition.

[CrusaderJoe]

I totally want to see a rage mage that is two schools based off the sorcerer list.

Or a rage mage that uses necromancy...

[Myzz]

my 2cp...

Use Wisdom as casting Stat instead of Charisma for same reason Druids and Rangers use Charisma, which is the closest thematic class to barbarian...

If the Idea is that he is more like a Sorcerer or a Wizard, then use those classes as the Chasis.

1/3 caster Like EK and AT

Give them all Abjuration spells off all class lists, and cherry pick 2 -3 other spells that they know at each spell level...



From the OP, I infer that they want it to be more or a sorcerer that rages, and my suggestion is to create a new Sorcerous Origin... adding Rage-esque features to the Origin path...

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I don't have the spell list sorted by school in this edition so I don't really know for sure. Thematically they sound like what the OP is going for but I'd like someone with more spell knowledge than myself to look into it. Haven't played many spell-casters yet so I don't really know what is possible and by who in this edition.

Use this: http://salty-ridge-7989.herokuapp.com/

Abjuration does fit with the buffing goal. But it's creates overlap with EK, and the fluff for Abjuration is very much pure-arcane with lots of arcane wards, barrriers and magic-vs-magic interaction.
Edit: If you'd permit me a metaphor from that other, card-based game, Abjuration is Blue magic, whereas I think a barbarian mage would lean towards aspects of Green, Red or Black magic.

[DireSickFish]

Use this: http://salty-ridge-7989.herokuapp.com/

Abjuration does fit with the buffing goal. But it's creates overlap with EK, and the fluff for Abjuration is very much pure-arcane with lots of arcane wards, barrriers and magic-vs-magic interaction.

Nice link. Okay what about transmutation and conjuration? Conjuration has some nifty low level teleports like misty step and dimension door, as well as ways to alter the terrain. That gives you buffing and battlefield control.

What schools do fighters and rogues get btw? I forget.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

EK gets Evocation and Abjuration, AT gets Illusion and Enchantment

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Nice link. Okay what about transmutation and conjuration? Conjuration has some nifty low level teleports like misty step and dimension door, as well as ways to alter the terrain. That gives you buffing and battlefield control.

If using the sorcerer list I think it fits pretty well.
The wizard list has a fair amount of possibly out-of-place spells like Find familiar, Fabricate, rope trick, flame sphere, summon X, leomund's secret chest etc.

[Ormvsay]

If I were doing a rage mage build, I would probably make it a sorcerer option that has a similar concept to a barbarian rage: resist all damage except psychic whilst raging (a defence bonus for such a combat-heavy class), you have to deal or take damage to maintain rage, you get to add your charisma to your spell damage, that sort of thing. Later features would probably include regaining sorcery points when killing enemies during a rage and maybe casting damage cantrips as bonus actions.

The fluff would be a sorcerer who can tap into a powerful source of magic, but only when they are deeply, passionately angry. I don't know if the wild/druidic magic needs to come into it, I think it works just fine with magic powered by RAGE.

[eastmabl]

Mods - thread necromancy.

[ZenBear]

I like the idea of a Rage Mage being only able to cast spells while raging. Lots of blasting and some self buffs, dealing damage with a spell maintains rage. I think the free cast on entering rage is a good higher level feature.

[Hudsonian]

Wow, this one must have tagged along on the Way Back machine.

I really like this idea. Anybody know of an already done homebrew? Otherwise I might put some thought into the Rage Mage. But I think I might call it the "Path of Madgic".

[JackPhoenix]

That feeling when you're about to write a reply to a post from year-old thread....