What are some of the worst multiclasses mechanicaly?

[Rfkannen]

I was thinking that it might be fun to make multiclassing archetypes. You know, kind of like the nature domain cleric, archetypes that give you the feel and some of the ability of another class. Than I thought it would be interesting to do it for some of the worse multiclasses. So what multiclasses are the worst? I am already thinking bardbarian, but any others?


Oh another thing, for example, a wizard/fighter is bassicaly an eldirch knight. I am trying to make stuff like that one, archetypes to make multiclasses that dont work that well. So the theme will still work.

edit; looks like people want a more direct question, okay this is what I meant realy. Flavor wise, what do you want to play but is inherintly inferior than other options. More flavor than mechanics, for example, You might want to play a ranger/druid so you could have a companion while being wildhsaped, but that doesnt realy work all that well.

[Shining Wrath]

Increase your number of needed key abilities, of course.

Start with a pure melee, add a pure caster.

I think Wizard + Fighter (Champion, Strength Build) is pretty lame.

[DireSickFish]

Wizard Monk is rather terrible, no synergy at all. I think Wizard makes the worst class to multiclass with because it is the only class that uses Int as a primary stat.

[odigity]

Increase your number of needed key abilities, of course.

Start with a pure melee, add a pure caster.

I think Wizard + Fighter (Champion, Strength Build) is pretty lame.

Agree unless we're talking about starting with a 1 or 2 level dip. Then I disagree.

Fighter 1 / Wizard 19 is lots of fun, especially Abjurer. You can be useful early on, and even when it's not worth swinging a sword anymore, it's still worth having armor and a short-rest self heal.

[Slipperychicken]

Whatever multiclass you take, you can probably make it worse by stopping each class at level 3 so you don't get ASIs, extra attacks, 2nd level spells, or feats.

So if you dipped like 7 classes with no more than 3 levels in each, you'd never get an ASI or feat.

[toapat]

Paladin/monk is the worst multiclass in the game

Wizard at least works with rogue or fighter in place of AT/EK as well as or better then those subclasses, and maybe ranger although i havent read ranger too much.

Barbarian/Rogue is extremely bad to carry into a functional state later down the line.

[Slipperychicken]

Barbarian/Rogue is extremely bad to carry into a functional state later down the line.

BarbarianX/Rogue2 is great. Expertise synergizes with rage and strength to have nigh-unbeatable Strength(Athletics) for combat maneuvers, and Cunning Action makes you highly maneuverable. That multiclass is already a staple of grapple builds.

Rogue(Thief)3 lets you take "Use an Object" as a bonus action, which is very nice if you have some imagination. Spreading caltrops is the first thing that comes to my mind, but I'm sure a more creative player can figure out something awesome to do with it.

[toapat]

BarbarianX/Rogue2 is great. Expertise synergizes with rage and strength to have nigh-unbeatable Strength(Athletics) for combat maneuvers, and Cunning Action makes you highly maneuverable. That multiclass is already a staple of grapple builds.

Rogue(Thief)3 lets you take "Use an Object" as a bonus action, which is very nice if you have some imagination. Spreading caltrops is the first thing that comes to my mind, but I'm sure a more creative player can figure out something awesome to do with it.

a better way to explain what i mean is its difficult to merge in any meaningful way any degree of balanced investment for the class combo. Its not like how <Fighter/Rogue>12/Wizard 8 is a comparable or better EK/AT then the regular versions.

[Callin]

Really any class combo can be made to work. You can dump Int and still be a Wizard. I mean the only real way to not make you Viable is to dump Strength and Dexterity and try to melee. While NOT using Shillelagh tricks I might add.

Yes taking 3 of many classes and skipping out on ASFs or Feats is honestly what REALLY hurts any multiclass. The other thing is having too many uses for your bonus action. When you have 3 or more abilities trying to use your bonus action you are wasting 2 of them. Take for example this crappy build. Variant Human Rogue 3/Monk3 with Crossbow Expert. He started as a Rogue then decided to join a monastery or something. So to start his bonus action was to either use Crossbow Expert or Cunning Action, then after becoming a monk he added in Flurry. Yea each can be situational but honestly I have seen a Rogue use his Cunning Action each and every single round in a combat.

So poor Action use hurts you more than multiclassing I believe.

[CrusaderJoe]

Paladin/monk is the worst multiclass in the game

Wizard at least works with rogue or fighter in place of AT/EK as well as or better then those subclasses, and maybe ranger although i havent read ranger too much.

Barbarian/Rogue is extremely bad to carry into a functional state later down the line.

Holy crap you might be able to make Paladin/Monk work. Basically you want Stun and to make a strength based Monk. Forget Wis and Dex.

Start with Paladin for the heavy armor, take 6 levels of Monk, Way of the Shadow or 4 Elements. For this purpose I'm going to take Way of the Shadow because it has utility spells and at 6th level I'll gain teleporting.

Paladin 2/Monk (Shadow) 6/ Paladin 12

You can teleport around smite-stunning whomever you want.

I used normal human and got my stats up and all... Might need to focus more on Wis/Cha than I originally thought. Or perhaps a level or two of warlock will help with smites...

I feel like Paladin/Monk would be niche but doable.

Two attacks: 1d8+1d8+str+str+ 5d8 smite+ 4d8 smite + Stun (my DC is 10+Proficiency Mod) so not that horrible.

Question: can you make Flurry if Blows while in armor? It doesn't mention under Ki that you can't, just the special martial arts BA attack can't be used... So add two more attacks for 1 ki. This would add 1 + Str Mod + 1 + Str Mod damage. I wouldn't get the bonus damage because my Palamonk is in armor.

With a +4 Strength Modifier... That comes out to 10 damage.

11d8+18+ Stun (2 Ki used, 2 spell slots used).

67.5... Not the greatest but I'm using a longsword, a shield, headbutts, and round house kicks lol

Next round would -1d8 damage compared to that round.

I need to take a look at paladin spells and see if there is a good concentration spell to help me make things die. Oh yeah! I have haste as a bonus spell.

Result: I think a Strength based Monk splash onto a Paladin can make for a fun and interesting character :). I wouldn't have thought to try this.

Final Ability Scores: Level 20 Normal Human
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 9
Wis: 14
Cha: 18

I might try to place this at some point! Thanks toapat for the idea. I don't think this is all that bad.

[toapat]

I might try to place this at some point! Thanks toapat for the idea. I don't think this is all that bad.

the problem isnt really theres nothing that breaks apart mechanics, its what gets increasingly difficult to handle or work. The real problem is that paladin has a multiclass prerequisite of str when they are not actually locked to str, which lowers their raw flexibility. if you drop unnecessary attributes like that from the multiclass prerequisites then paladin works with most classes. as is you have that problem of attribute hurdles.

[Phion]

a better way to explain what i mean is its difficult to merge in any meaningful way any degree of balanced investment for the class combo. Its not like how <Fighter/Rogue>12/Wizard 8 is a comparable or better EK/AT then the regular versions.

Couldn't disagree more, as slipperychicken said it makes the barbarian a grappling god; not only can you put skill expertise into athletics so you get around +9/+10 (depending on stats) at level 6 you can also do so with advantage while raging. When you have the extra attack feature you can replace an attack with a special attack to knock them prone or grapple and then attack (helps your allies)

synergy you ask? How about as a cunning action (bonus action) you will likely dash 80 feet (barbarians feature +10 speed while not in heavy armour) , compare this to the charge feat and you will see that you are swapping around charge from just one attack to 2 attacks. Put the other skill expertise into stealth because why the hell not you will likely have +2 into dex anyway so +8 to stealth and goes to +10 +12 +14 later on as your proficiency goes up to +6, oh guess what you can also do a stealth check as a bonus action. Too much aggro but want to get a few hits before you bail out? disengage bonus action after you use standard to attack or if its really bad disengage and dash 80 feet.

Lose your 2 handed maul/axe? Pull out your short sword and get sneak attack (can use strength, only has to be a finesse weapon) if no allies are close by reckless attack for advantage. Want to run and shoot? Use a bow and get sneak attack from hide or ally adjacent to enemy.

Archtype assassin, it deals crit damage EVERY TIME you hit in surprise round against surprised creature so likely double crit, level 9 barbarian feature brutal crit add more damage on your guaranteed hits (you are good at stealth remember, surprise rounds are more likely)

training in thieves can't, one rogue class skill and thieves tools....because apparently the above just wasn't enough. I would call it a day though at level 2-3 you still want those barbarian features and one level in fighter so you can reroll 1's-2's on weapon dice.

also I can vouch the build is amazing because I am actually doing all the above.

[Phion]

To answer OP question barbarian and any caster since you can't cast spells in rage, had a party member who didn't read that part and when he found out he bowed his head in shame XD

[CrusaderJoe]

the problem isnt really theres nothing that breaks apart mechanics, its what gets increasingly difficult to handle or work. The real problem is that paladin has a multiclass prerequisite of str when they are not actually locked to str, which lowers their raw flexibility. if you drop unnecessary attributes like that from the multiclass prerequisites then paladin works with most classes. as is you have that problem of attribute hurdles.

Strength is fine, I used the strength based monk idea by dropping some of what the monk can do in order to focus on the other things I like. I can still use things like slow fall and snatch arrows (if I ever have a free hand). Flurry if blows works with strength just fine as stunning does.

You can also make a Dex based paladin now that I think about it... d8 damage for a rapier so it wouldn't change much from a sword n board strength based. I could just swap my Str and Dex and things would work out the same. Except I'm not totally boned if in lose my shield and armor.


Edit:

Barbarian works fantastically with Bard or Sorcerer. When you run out of RAGE you have great backup. Expertise from Bard is great for grapple/intimidate god. Cha synergy is always nice. Barbarian 6 /Chacaster 14 is a great way to build it.

[Boverk]

Paladin/monk is the worst multiclass in the game


Someone has already commented on this a little, but another thing to consider is the saving throws of the pally monk

paladin 6, monk 14

Paladin lets you add your charisma to all saving throws, monk gets you all saving throws. This means if you have 20 charisma at level 20, the worst saving throw you could possibly have is a +10...and that is to your dump stat. You can also spend a ki point to reroll a saving throw.

You'd also have a few slots for smite, for the initial burst, lots of attacks, stunning fist, speed increase

Depending on your monk path, you could have ninja utility or reliable knockdowns and knockbacks.

You'd only be at about 16 ac though...and your attack stat most likely will only be at 18, 14 if you decide to prioritize wisdom. You could work around this with the +cha to hit, or advantage.

If your DM rules that true polymorph let's you keep your class as long as you're still physically capable of using the abilities, you could get around the ability point tax on this guy. Although that wouldn't help you out for an actual campaign.


I really wish Paladin had the choice between dex and str.

[Phion]

Make a druid and throw 1 level into monk for unarmoured defense and martial arts and then 1 level into cleric for life domain feature to make heal spells more potent the rest druid, simple but effective.

[CrusaderJoe]

I found a 5e character generator app for my phone and I can build/level up characters (even Multiclassing ones) is less than 5 minutes (level 1 to 20). It is a little to involved and I'm sure support will have to be stopped soon as wotc learns about it... But..

I just made the Bardarian and holy crap, Lore Bard + Totem Barbarian is very very nice. You get up to 7th level spells and can cherry pick some spells. Start off as a barbarian and eventually gain warcaster... Well you are almost like you gestalted Lore Bard with a Valor Bard...*with a dire bear to make a triple gestalt.

It comes online at mid level (6+) but even before then you have plenty of things to play with.


Edit:*

[MeeposFire]

Paladin/monk is the worst multiclass in the game

Wizard at least works with rogue or fighter in place of AT/EK as well as or better then those subclasses, and maybe ranger although i havent read ranger too much.

Barbarian/Rogue is extremely bad to carry into a functional state later down the line.

I do not see Barbarian/rogue as being bad even late game. A barb5/rogue15 is a rogue that gives up 2d6 sneak attack/other high level rogue abilities for an extra attack, resistance, bonus damage, always have advantage, etc.

Best idea is to probably go for barb first and get medium armor and go str based using a rapier+shield. Use expertise on athletics and combine that with rage to be able to be the best at shoving. Also note while you will have one less ASI than a full rogue you will have just as many as a normal barbarian.

You should be fairly tough and be very damaging.

Is it the best build ever? No but it is a far cry from bad and certainly not in the running for worst multiclass ever.

[Santra]

Question: can you make Flurry if Blows while in armor?

YOU CAN INDEED! But the problem is it would be at a non-monks unarmed damage (1 damage) since the monk unarmed damage increase doesn't apply if you are wearing armor.

[WickerNipple]

I feel like for this discussion to be interesting you're going to need to set some frameworks about what you mean by multiclassing.

If we're just talking about a 1-2 lvl dip you can justify almost anything. Seriously: anything. In many cases a lvl 2 dip will be a serious power upgrade for a substantial part of your PC's career. In others it's more of a sidegrade, but no lvl 2 dip is going to seriously hurt your character, and will likely make you a lot more fun.

Just from examples so far in this thread:

Fighter/Wizard is easy. F1, W5, F1, W13 - You have a full progression (slightly delayed) wizard in medium armor w/ a shield and defensive style and action surge and con save. This isn't just a good wizard, this might well be the best wizard. Ditto Sorcerer/Warlock/Bard.

Bardbarian could mean Barb 2 Bard 18 or the other way around. Both are fine, but neither is the best choice. Like fighter above, barbs start with Con saves so any spell caster could consider them a good lvl 1 before switching to caster, especially if the rolled good stats for Dex+Con. A Barb might be tempted to pick up Bard because they liked the 4e charisma king conan approach. They'll likely want more than a dip, but it's not a bad character.

Paladin dipping Monk is fantastic. Alpha strike Flurry/Smite=good.

Barb 18/Rogue 2 has been addressed, and it works perfectly well.

Wizard+Monk... is... possibly the least great, but it still wouldn't ruin you character, and while there's other things you'd be better off doing, dipping wizard will always give you Shield, even with mediocre intelligence. Monks love ki-free toys and Shield is a heckuva toy, especially combined with Abjurer 2. I wouldn't mind having this guy in my party.

Classes are heavily front loaded in 5e. Often you can get the core framework of a class entirely in 2 levels. Almost always by 5 levels, but therein lies the rub, cause ~ there are tons of examples of bad multiclassing once you start hitting 3+ levels in something, and once you reach something like 10/10 practically all multiclasses are bad.

So, if we're just talking a 1/2 lvl dip in something, I really don't think there are any bad multiclasses. I can find a reasonable reason to dip 1-2 from almost any class to any other.

Once you start truly multiclassing and taking more than say, 5 lvs in a given class, the only thing that really works is Fighter/Rogue/Ranger IMO. The rest just give up too much.

[Giant2005]

Barb 18/Rogue 2 has been addressed, and it works perfectly well.

The opposite is far superior: Rogue 18/Barb 2.
For the price of 1D6 sneak damage, 1 ASI and a rather mediocre capstone, the Rogue gains incredible unarmored AC, advantage on Dex saves (Coupled with Evasion is virtual immunity), resistance to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning via Rage and Advantage on all attacks (And guaranteed Sneaks) via Reckless Attack which has its downside removed by the Rogue's level 18 ability: Elusive.

The worst combinations imo would have to be a pair of martial characters that stop at level 10 in each. Fighter brings virtually nothing to the table until level 11 and most of the other martial types pick up key abilities at level 11 too.

[Phion]

The opposite is far superior: Rogue 18/Barb 2.
For the price of 1D6 sneak damage, 1 ASI and a rather mediocre capstone, the Rogue gains incredible unarmored AC, advantage on Dex saves (Coupled with Evasion is virtual immunity), resistance to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning via Rage and Advantage on all attacks (And guaranteed Sneaks) via Reckless Attack which has its downside removed by the Rogue's level 18 ability: Elusive.

The worst combinations imo would have to be a pair of martial characters that stop at level 10 in each. Fighter brings virtually nothing to the table until level 11 and most of the other martial types pick up key abilities at level 11 too.

For the barbarian it depends what you are going for and the party set up. We already had a rogue thief, a cleric and a wizard so we needed a tank that could take a lot of abuse which a barbarian does pretty well, the cleric is life domain so while the barbarian is raged and taking half damage its like their life is getting doubled. But slight dip so he is not a one trick pony as I said above with other cool stuff and good all-round team player with the tough and sentinel feat.

As for fighter I agree although I would say a one level dip is nice for a fighter style if your class doesn't get one i.e. rogue and archery

[Giant2005]

As for fighter I agree although I would say a one level dip is nice for a fighter style if your class doesn't get one i.e. rogue and archery

Agreed. Fighter 1,2 or 3 are worthy investments. Just not worthy enough to waste 7 more levels on nothing.

[kaoskonfety]

Define "worst".

Average damage per round? If so: in bursts or sustainable?
Worst action options? - what makes a bad option? Many different uses for reaction and bonus actions?
Most redundancy? - multiple cases of armoured defence, medium armour proficiency 4 times?

2 levels of everything? 13's or so across the board? starting fighter - you are proficient with heavy armour, but heavy armour messes up a pile of your class tricks (but you can't wear it cause druid?), you have more tricks than you know what to do with each round. Even if you do find some niche optimization you will quickly realize you could have done it better any number of ways causing frustration. And from a roleplay perspective: what are you playing, really, explain this mess!

The new system for proficiency advancement makes truly pooching yourself a bit of an effort unless you make deliberately terrible choices - blow your feats, assign your stats terribly, look for overlapping class features, buy up stats you don't use etc.


I assure you if you handed me the most damage optimised PC in the game I'd take a look and say "na, I'm gonna play a totem warrior barbarian with ritual caster (wizard) and act like I'm a wizard in a Conan movie" I am a POWERFUL SORCERER! Behold my mighty magic! Might take some druid down the line so I can turn into animals and be all one with nature and the forces of the universe. Oh, I also get druid spells and now HAVE to dress in furs, leather and skins? Neato. I am a POWERFUL SORCERER!

[Garimeth]

I feel like for this discussion to be interesting you're going to need to set some frameworks about what you mean by multiclassing.

If we're just talking about a 1-2 lvl dip you can justify almost anything. Seriously: anything. In many cases a lvl 2 dip will be a serious power upgrade for a substantial part of your PC's career. In others it's more of a sidegrade, but no lvl 2 dip is going to seriously hurt your character, and will likely make you a lot more fun.

This. Interesting thread, but needs a little more focus I think.

Just my 2cp.

[Phion]

This. Interesting thread, but needs a little more focus I think.

Just my 2cp.

How about:
-Max level of character in discussion -level 10 (you can make most things sound great given enough levels, people seem to forget you rarely get to level 20 anyway with a character)
-3 classes at most.
-Select a class you believe is the worse to start with in terms of proficiency bonuses and so on i.e. saving throws (probably wizard)
-character background, ambitions and world view (so its not just about min/maxing, in fact this is more relevant than the build itself.

[CrusaderJoe]

YOU CAN INDEED! But the problem is it would be at a non-monks unarmed damage (1 damage) since the monk unarmed damage increase doesn't apply if you are wearing armor.

1 damage isn't so bad since you are adding strength modifier.

FoB can give you +8 (16 str) to +12 (20 str) damage. That isn't too bad really for 1 ki.

[Garimeth]

How about:
-Max level of character in discussion -level 10 (you can make most things sound great given enough levels, people seem to forget you rarely get to level 20 anyway with a character)
-3 classes at most.
-Select a class you believe is the worse to start with in terms of proficiency bonuses and so on i.e. saving throws (probably wizard)
-character background, ambitions and world view (so its not just about min/maxing, in fact this is more relevant than the build itself.

I think this is pretty good, and the first point in particular bears some thought. These characters don't usually start at the table at level 20, or really anything higher than level 5 IME. The levelling process is a big deal for me when deciding if I want to multiclass or not.

[Rfkannen]

oh btw here was the bardbarian http://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2u8bd7/5e_skald_a_homebrew_path_for_the_barbarian/

[Rfkannen]

I made a thread of multiclass mimicing archetypes i made. I realize neither of the two i did so far are that bad multiclasses, they were just easy ones to warm up.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395765-Hybrid-archetypes-Archetypes-that-mimic-the-effect-of-multiclassing

Going to do ones inspired by bad builds mentioned in this thread.

[Particle_Man]

I would imagine that the "jack of all trades" would be hard to be effective at high levels. Compare any 12th level single-classed character to a 12th level character with 1 level in all 12 classes in the PHB. Besides, such a character would probably need to be the non-variant human to meet the multi-classing prerequisites for all those classes, and most people seem to think that the non-variant human is weaker than other race choices.

[toapat]

I would imagine that the "jack of all trades" would be hard to be effective at high levels. Compare any 12th level single-classed character to a 12th level character with 1 level in all 12 classes in the PHB. Besides, such a character would probably need to be the non-variant human to meet the multi-classing prerequisites for all those classes, and most people seem to think that the non-variant human is weaker than other race choices.

paladin with a hint of a dip in rogue is a literal jack of all trades with the right background. And you are still extremely competent at melee. We dont have the master of everything anymore but that isnt jack of all trades. The only problem is the lode that is the STR multiclass requisite

hell, even without dipping EK rogue is a jack of all trades, and is still in the grandmaster's tournament for damage.

[CrusaderJoe]

I would imagine that the "jack of all trades" would be hard to be effective at high levels. Compare any 12th level single-classed character to a 12th level character with 1 level in all 12 classes in the PHB. Besides, such a character would probably need to be the non-variant human to meet the multi-classing prerequisites for all those classes, and most people seem to think that the non-variant human is weaker than other race choices.
Jack of all trades is pretty much a Valor Bard. Good at melee and you have 9th level spells. If you go single class. Half elf works pretty damn well for this.

You can even cherry pick spells from other lists.

But the (human/half elf/ mountain dwarf) Bard (Lore)/Barbarian totem. You don't end with 9th level spells but you are an absolutely beast in melee with barbarian levels and spells. You can sit back and blast all you want. You can also have quite a bit of spells (cherry picking spells ftw).

In combat you can switch from using viscious mockery (1d4 to 4d4 damage + disadvantage) and then charge in with reckless attack. Heat Metal first and then charge your opponent who now doesn't have a weapon. Hold person and you won't even have to use reckless attack.

Skill? You get expertise. Being cha based with expertise? Intimidate is your social face skill.

Utility/buff? Spells and Inapiration. Nuff said. But I'll say more anyways... Modify Memory and greater invisibility... Haste... Fly...

I'm going to try and perfect this build, this might be one of the best multiclassig builds out there. Probably not perfect for each other (paladin warlock are perfect for each other) but if you want to do everything this is the way to go.


Edit: You also get cutting words by 12th level (barb 6/bard 6) when can be used as a reaction to impose disadvantage, yet another way to use reckless attack better.

Also you could make the Dex barbarian with this build, the only thing you miss out on is rage... Which people tend to ignore it anyways when you make a Dex barbarian. Other class features work with a good Dex.