Help balancing a werebear

[Invader]

Im trying to play a werebear in our current campaign and I suggested these changes to my DM to bring it down in line with a 4th lvl character. Only 3 feats, drop BaB to 4, all saves to 4, and DR/5. I'll be going into warshaper at 5th.

Maybe the saves would be more reasonable at 8, 6, 4 in bear form?

The rest of the group isnt very good at optimizing but I'm not sure what they're playing yet.

Everything else stays pretty much the same.

[Karl Aegis]

Black werebear, brown werebear, polar werebear or dire werebear?

[Invader]

Black werebear, brown werebear, polar werebear or dire werebear?

Brown, straight from the SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm

[Karl Aegis]

Since all brown bears have 6 HD, if you want to make a brown werebear you're going to have to change every brown bear in the setting to have less than 2 HD.

[Invader]

Since all brown bears have 6 HD, if you want to make a brown werebear you're going to have to change every brown bear in the setting to have less than 2 HD.

That's not really relevant to balancing a PC.

[Frostthehero]

What you misunderstand here is ECL (effective character level). A non-phb race character's ECL is the sum of its hit dice plus its level adjustment. In the case of a werebear, this comes out to 9. As a result, what you are effectively trying to do is cut 5 levels off of this character (and that would mean NO class levels). A werebears feats result from its humanoid levels. For a 4th level character, you get 1 feat. Humanoids have a base attack bonus equal to 3/4ths of their hit dice. Because a werebear has six humanoid levels, and a level adjustment of +3, you only get 1 hit dice, and as a result, a BAB of +1. A werebear's saves are special. for 1 hit dice, they would get a +1 fort, 0 reflex, and 0 will.

In total, the adjustments would look like this. As a 4th level character, you would have 1 hit dice (a d8) and no class levels. Your skill points would be 2+ int mod min. 1, with quadruple on the first die. Your BAB would be +1, saves would be +1 fort, and +0 for reflex and will. Finally, you would end up with +18 strength, +2 dexterity, +10 con, and -2 cha. Also, a +7 natural armor bonus, damage reduction 10/silver, low light vision, and scent.

Not that great, but what really screws you over is the +18 strength. That and the constitution bonus are what add the +3 level adjustment, and leave you with just one hit dice (as a 4th level character). As you level up, you could gain more hit dice, but as a 4th level character, you will be pretty vulnerable (even with that +10 con).

My advice? Wait a couple levels (I would say level 10, so you can be a full on werebear, and take a class level) and then come back to being a werebear.

[Invader]

What you misunderstand here is ECL (effective character level). A non-phb race character's ECL is the sum of its hit dice plus its level adjustment. In the case of a werebear, this comes out to 9. As a result, what you are effectively trying to do is cut 5 levels off of this character (and that would mean NO class levels). A werebears feats result from its humanoid levels. For a 4th level character, you get 1 feat. Humanoids have a base attack bonus equal to 3/4ths of their hit dice. Because a werebear has six humanoid levels, and a level adjustment of +3, you only get 1 hit dice, and as a result, a BAB of +1. A werebear's saves are special. for 1 hit dice, they would get a +1 fort, 0 reflex, and 0 will.

In total, the adjustments would look like this. As a 4th level character, you would have 1 hit dice (a d8) and no class levels. Your skill points would be 2+ int mod min. 1, with quadruple on the first die. Your BAB would be +1, saves would be +1 fort, and +0 for reflex and will. Finally, you would end up with +18 strength, +2 dexterity, +10 con, and -2 cha. Also, a +7 natural armor bonus, damage reduction 10/silver, low light vision, and scent.

Not that great, but what really screws you over is the +18 strength. That and the constitution bonus are what add the +3 level adjustment, and leave you with just one hit dice (as a 4th level character). As you level up, you could gain more hit dice, but as a 4th level character, you will be pretty vulnerable (even with that +10 con).

My advice? Wait a couple levels (I would say level 10, so you can be a full on werebear, and take a class level) and then come back to being a werebear.

I understand ECL perfectly fine thank you. All I'm asking is comparison of balance to a 4th lvl character. I'm obviously not following actual progression rules because they're garbage that's why it's just a quick rewrite for something so it's still playable.

Waiting till 10 doesn't work because that's obviously not where we're starting and even if we were at 10th lvl with LA and HD a werebear would be an awful pc.

[Frostthehero]

I understand ECL perfectly fine thank you. All I'm asking is comparison of balance to a 4th lvl character. I'm obviously not following actual progression rules because they're garbage that's why it's just a quick rewrite for something so it's still playable.

But what you are asking for is something far beyond character level 4. what I gave you is equivalent power wise to a 4th level character. If you wanted extra hit dice, you would have to tone down the strength bonus to around +6, and the con bonus to +2 or +4. And you would have to drop that DR, likely to 5/silver. Then you might be able to do the save bonuses and BAB you were talking about. Would you be using werebear hit dice as well? If you are, then limit your class levels to 2. I reccomend not using werebear hit dice, and just taking 4 class levels.

[Invader]

But what you are asking for is something far beyond character level 4. what I gave you is equivalent power wise to a 4th level character. If you wanted extra hit dice, you would have to tone down the strength bonus to around +6, and the con bonus to +2 or +4. And you would have to drop that DR, likely to 5/silver. Then you might be able to do the save bonuses and BAB you were talking about. Would you be using werebear hit dice as well? If you are, then limit your class levels to 2. I reccomend not using werebear hit dice, and just taking 4 class levels.

DR is already 5
Giving up 4 lvls for 6 str, 4 con and dr 5 seems pretty steep that's why I was leaving the higher hps. The physical scores are high for a 4th lvl character but balance wise I look at him as a pretty one dimensional brute without to many tricks. Perhaps a little powerful for a lvl or two but quickly losing out to a druid with spell casting while wild shaped.

[Larrx]

Any reason you can't create a 4th level character with the skills to track down and engage in diplomacy with a werebear? Just get one to bite you, and fail the save. Boom, free power boost, and the curse should be trivial to handle, especially if you're already Lawful Good. Of course you wouldn't level again for a looong time after eating the extra HD and LA, but it's technically playable in a game starting at ECL 4.

[Baroknik]

Any reason not to use the Savage Progression from wizards website?
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a


Edit: re-reading that, is this a way to increase your BAB above your level/HD? Of note:
Bear Abilities (Ex): Upon taking a level in the brown bear animal class, the character gains the animal's Hit Dice (in all forms), base attack bonus (in all forms), base saving throw bonuses (in all forms), ability score modifiers (in hybrid and animal forms), skill points (in all forms), and natural armor bonus (in hybrid and animal forms), as well as the special abilities indicated on Table SP-11.

Brown Bears have a BAB of +4, so with 2 progression levels you can net
A +4 BAB and then progress another class...

RAI you probably only get the brown bear class stats added, but that's not exactly what is written...

[Invader]

Any reason not to use the Savage Progression from wizards website?
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a

We talked about it and what I have is pretty similar but I'm going for something a little more powerful since my alternative is a druid hence the increases to some stuff.

[Invader]

Any reason not to use the Savage Progression from wizards website?
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a


Edit: re-reading that, is this a way to increase your BAB above your level/HD? Of note:
Bear Abilities (Ex): Upon taking a level in the brown bear animal class, the character gains the animal's Hit Dice (in all forms), base attack bonus (in all forms), base saving throw bonuses (in all forms), ability score modifiers (in hybrid and animal forms), skill points (in all forms), and natural armor bonus (in hybrid and animal forms), as well as the special abilities indicated on Table SP-11.

Brown Bears have a BAB of +4, so with 2 progression levels you can net
A +4 BAB and then progress another class...

RAI you probably only get the brown bear class stats added, but that's not exactly what is written...

Id say since they also list BaB in the chart it'd be a case of specific trumps general.

[ngilop]

Ok, so basically what you are trying to do is squeeze a ECL 9 into ECL 4?


while I agree that some level adjustments out there are a bit off, cutting the ECL of a creature in over half is a bit beyond sensibility.

SO basically you are trying to be a werebear with 60-ish HP, ful BAB all good saves and 3 feats. ( non fighters only have 2 at this point) at lvl 4.

and to add insult to injury, the other player you have already stated are bad at optimizing

so you are basically trying to 'cheat' and make a super OP character that should in all regards probably be ECL 6 ( that's what I feel a standard brown were-bear should be) that is lvl 4 againsta a few guys who just kinda throw together characters and have fun.


Is it to feed your ego so you can say 'RAWR LOOK AT MY CHARACTER I IS SOO POWERFUL!!!!!!. ignore the fact that I am cheating and playing a RAW ECL 9 character as a level 4, you guys are just idiots and tards and cannot optimize so I need to be big man rawr rawr arw"

at least that is 100% what it looks like, most guys I play with are not total jerks and do not try to find ways to cheat, just so they can have the most powerful guy evah at the expense of everybody else playing/.

[Larrx]

Ok, so basically what you are trying to do is squeeze a ECL 9 into ECL 4?


while I agree that some level adjustments out there are a bit off, cutting the ECL of a creature in over half is a bit beyond sensibility.

SO basically you are trying to be a werebear with 60-ish HP, ful BAB all good saves and 3 feats. ( non fighters only have 2 at this point) at lvl 4.

and to add insult to injury, the other player you have already stated are bad at optimizing

so you are basically trying to 'cheat' and make a super OP character that should in all regards probably be ECL 6 ( that's what I feel a standard brown were-bear should be) that is lvl 4 againsta a few guys who just kinda throw together characters and have fun.


Is it to feed your ego so you can say 'RAWR LOOK AT MY CHARACTER I IS SOO POWERFUL!!!!!!. ignore the fact that I am cheating and playing a RAW ECL 9 character as a level 4, you guys are just idiots and tards and cannot optimize so I need to be big man rawr rawr arw"

at least that is 100% what it looks like, most guys I play with are not total jerks and do not try to find ways to cheat, just so they can have the most powerful guy evah at the expense of everybody else playing/.

No, the OP is actually looking for a way to reduce the power of the werebear so that it can be played at ECL 4 (did you read the thread?) The first post suggesting reducing the werebears abilities and stats across the board, and he was simply asking if that reduction in power was enough to bring it down to ECL 4. I see no attempt at powergaming here.

Also, his party member is a druid . . . so there's that. He could probably play the Tarrasque and still get out shown.

[ngilop]

No, the OP is actually looking for a way to reduce the power of the werebear so that it can be played at ECL 4 (did you read the thread?) The first post suggesting reducing the werebears abilities and stats across the board, and he was simply asking if that reduction in power was enough to bring it down to ECL 4. I see no attempt at powergaming here.

Also, his party member is a druid . . . so there's that. He could probably play the Tarrasque and still get out shown.

re-re-read the OP he is trying to take the were bear and make it a ECL 4 character by making the DR lower.

keeping the massive stat bonus and the extra 6 hit die, and weaking the things that do not really mater at all

there is no druid in his party his BACKUP/ALTERNATE character is going to be a druid. he makes it a poin of saying 'my group cannot optimize' and proceeds to literall cheat to get a ECL 4 werebear. keeping everything else expcept making the DR 5/silver instead of 10/silver.


Now explain to me how having Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8 Wis +2 6d8 HD +4 BaB, 1 3 feats, dr 5/silver, and getting all bad saves somehow makes it the same as the guy over there who is a llv 4 fighter?

[Larrx]

re-re-read the OP he is trying to take the were bear and make it a ECL 4 character by making the DR lower.

keeping the massive stat bonus and the extra 6 hit die, and weaking the things that do not really mater at all

there is no druid in his party his BACKUP/ALTERNATE character is going to be a druid. he makes it a poin of saying 'my group cannot optimize' and proceeds to literall cheat to get a ECL 4 werebear. keeping everything else expcept making the DR 5/silver instead of 10/silver.


Now explain to me how having Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8 Wis +2 6d8 HD +4 BaB, 1 3 feats, dr 5/silver, and getting all bad saves somehow makes it the same as the guy over there who is a llv 4 fighter?

You're right . . . in a way. You say that he is keeping everything except making the DR 5 instead of 10, but it also seems that you know he is suggesting reducing the saves from 12/6/4 to 4/4/4 (still good), and he's reducing the BAB from 5 to 4 (also still good), and reducing the feats from 6 to 3 (still very good!). It seems to me that he is reducing things across the board, but perhaps not far enough. Maybe that's why he came to this forum for advice?

He hasn't gone far enough? Ok, tell him what additional changes he should make. Why do you suppose he just wants to cheat his way into werebear to the detriment of his party? If that was his goal wouldn't he be talking to his DM, and not to us?

You are correct that I misread the statement about the druid, and I apologize. I thought it was a traveling companion rather than an alternate entry into the prestige class. I'm still unclear how this is a 'literal cheat'. I think that you'll find that if the OP wanted to outshine the party than straight druid 20 would do it quite nicely. If he wants to go werebear into warshaper, and he wants to use optimization/homebrew to get there, then he is still strictly weaker than a generalist wizard.

I give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he has a fun character concept he wants to explore. Maybe he wants to flex his PO muscles in a way that -won't- overshadow his peers.

IDK, at this point I've done too much speaking for the OP. I could be completely wrong. I'll just shut up now.

[Invader]

You're right . . . in a way. You say that he is keeping everything except making the DR 5 instead of 10, but it also seems that you know he is suggesting reducing the saves from 12/6/4 to 4/4/4 (still good), and he's reducing the BAB from 5 to 4 (also still good), and reducing the feats from 6 to 3 (still very good!). It seems to me that he is reducing things across the board, but perhaps not far enough. Maybe that's why he came to this forum for advice?

He hasn't gone far enough? Ok, tell him what additional changes he should make. Why do you suppose he just wants to cheat his way into werebear to the detriment of his party? If that was his goal wouldn't he be talking to his DM, and not to us?

You are correct that I misread the statement about the druid, and I apologize. I thought it was a traveling companion rather than an alternate entry into the prestige class. I'm still unclear how this is a 'literal cheat'. I think that you'll find that if the OP wanted to outshine the party than straight druid 20 would do it quite nicely. If he wants to go werebear into warshaper, and he wants to use optimization/homebrew to get there, then he is still strictly weaker than a generalist wizard.

I give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he has a fun character concept he wants to explore. Maybe he wants to flex his PO muscles in a way that -won't- overshadow his peers.

IDK, at this point I've done too much speaking for the OP. I could be completely wrong. I'll just shut up now.

No, thank you Larrx, you're absolutely right. I was just trying to bring the werebear more in line with a druid as far as power since that was my other option. Like I said I know its powerful now but immediately starts to get out shown at 6th lvl when the the druid can turn into a brown bear and still cast spells.

Edit* I'll also note that I did say I already submitted the first version to my DM (I just haven't heard back from him yet) so, like you, I'm not sure how it's getting labeled as cheating if I'm getting his approval first.

[TIPOT]

One option is to play a level 4 ranger with the wild shape variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), replacing the wild shaping with the shapeshifting variant from players handbook 2. This nets you the ability to transform at will into an animal even if not true lycanthropy

[Invader]

One option is to play a level 4 ranger with the wild shape variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), replacing the wild shaping with the shapeshifting variant from players handbook 2. This nets you the ability to transform at will into an animal even if not true lycanthropy

I went back and forth quite a bit between WS ranger/MoMF and druid because I'm more interested in WS than spell casting. I decided to try werebear because it's a little more focused and proficient in its scope than the other two and I. Really looking for a dedicated bruiser.

[OldTrees1]

Your goal is to balance a werebear(ignoring ending ECL) so that it is balanced relative to the 4th level characters at your table.

Question: What is a typical 4th level character at your table?

Since I don't know the answer to that question, I will answer relative to my table.

First, to make it easier, I would use a Black werebear (1 class level, 3 RHD, +2 LA, +2 Wis, +8Str/+2Dex/+4Con in hybrid form, Medium sized hybrid form). This would give DR 5/silver, +2 BAB, +3Fort/Ref, +1Will (in addition to that 1 class level), scent and some nice bonuses to ability scores. Honestly without changes that seems weak for a 4th level character but it is in the ballpark.

What if it had to be a Large Bear? What would a 3RHD Brown Bear Werebear look like? Well exactly the same as the Black Bear werebear except it has Large Size hybrid/animal forms and gets Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8 while in hybrid form. That would be at little on the high side for my table but is closer than the straight Black werebear.

Final suggestion: Afflicted(DR 5/silver) 3RHD Brown Bear with +8 Str/+2 Dex/+8 Con during Hybrid form. However if the other martial characters are not very optimized, then drop down to an Afflicted Black Bear Werebear.

[Invader]

Your goal is to balance a werebear(ignoring ending ECL) so that it is balanced relative to the 4th level characters at your table.

Question: What is a typical 4th level character at your table?

Since I don't know the answer to that question, I will answer relative to my table.

First, to make it easier, I would use a Black werebear (1 class level, 3 RHD, +2 LA, +2 Wis, +8Str/+2Dex/+4Con in hybrid form, Medium sized hybrid form). This would give DR 5/silver, +2 BAB, +3Fort/Ref, +1Will (in addition to that 1 class level), scent and some nice bonuses to ability scores. Honestly without changes that seems weak for a 4th level character but it is in the ballpark.

What if it had to be a Large Bear? What would a 3RHD Brown Bear Werebear look like? Well exactly the same as the Black Bear werebear except it has Large Size hybrid/animal forms and gets Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8 while in hybrid form. That would be at little on the high side for my table but is closer than the straight Black werebear.

Final suggestion: Afflicted(DR 5/silver) 3RHD Brown Bear with +8 Str/+2 Dex/+8 Con during Hybrid form. However if the other martial characters are not very optimized, then drop down to an Afflicted Black Bear Werebear.

I wish I knew what everyone else was playing that might make it a bit easier. We're porting over from 5th edition and I knew what people were playing but I don't know what they're changig too.

[OldTrees1]

I wish I knew what everyone else was playing that might make it a bit easier. We're porting over from 5th edition and I knew what people were playing but I don't know what they're changig too.

Then I would go with a Afflicted Black Werebear _race_ _class_ 1. It would technically be ECL 6 but it should be balanced with 4th level characters. Maybe even go Fighter for that 1st level instead of Barbarian or a ToB class.

[Solaris]

Have you looked at using a shifter to get the lycantherope feel, Invader? I did a shifter barbarian/fighter for a 'werewolf'. Bonus points if you can swing Weretouched Master without the errata as a PrC; it's basically a werebear without any attached LA or RHD.

The shifter also qualifies for Warshaper, 'cause it has the shapechanger subtype.