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WarKitty
2015-01-29, 08:31 PM
So here's the thing - you're running a game. Everyone's built their character as best they can, and they're feeling pretty confident in them. Ready to take on the world.

Now here's the thing: for this game, that's got to go. Not quickly, not just by running in and beating their asses with something super powerful. That's no fun. Players need to feel like they're in over their heads, but not helpless - just as their characters should be making progress but feel like they're chipping away at something much, much bigger than they ever imagined. The players need to feel like their characters could be locked up in a jail cell as vampire food, or enslaved by an evil spirit, or die and then be brought back as an undead serial killer.

How do you break them, slowly, so that it's still fun?

jaydubs
2015-01-29, 10:47 PM
Some random ideas:

1. Let them know it's that type of campaign before it starts. Expectation makes a big difference. For instance, your average player in a 3.x game just has a different attitude than a Call of Cthulhu player.

2. Break down NPCs. Introduce a capable, confident, experienced NPC, who might even on first inspection seem like a DMPC. Then have that NPC get mercilessly destroyed by whatever threat the PCs have to face. The impression you're hoping for is "if that character can die, so can mine."

3. Let them beat something. Make sure it's a tough fight, but a victory they can feel good about. Later reveal how that was a minor threat compared to their real enemy. The tradition example is where protagonists they only killed the baby. Or that what they thought were the enemy's elite soldiers are actually just refugees, and the real army is on the way. The massive capital ship they spent all their effort destroying wasn't their flagship - it was just a ship of the line, and there's 100 more. Etc.

Kami2awa
2015-01-30, 03:27 AM
In my experience, the most hack-and-slash-y PCs can be scared by introducing the monster *slowly*. Let the PCs find the remains of a previous attack. Let them find tracks they can't identify, and traces of blood with weird properties. Let them meet a past victim, traumatised by the attack. Let them spot glowing eyes in the darkness but when they go to look there's nothing there.

Then, finally, introduce the monster. It doesn't matter if it's a lone, lame goblin in snowshoes by that point, the spectre in the PCs mind will have built up to the point where the encounter is memorable.

Raimun
2015-01-30, 03:46 AM
Is this D&D, Pathfinder or something along those lines? If so, your first step is clear:

1) Change the game system.

Seriously. D&D is not the ideal game for the kind of thing you trying to do. The game system should be something more lethal but not "call of cthulhu-lethal". If you have a ton of hp and the cleric can always remove the really bad stuff, it's hard to be concerned.

Also, magic in those other games can be really helpful but not so helpful that it includes sustained flight, teleportation, contingencies, resurrection, "murder mystery solver"-spells and other "I win"-spells. They are really cool spells but they aren't for all types of games.

WarKitty
2015-01-30, 04:40 PM
Is this D&D, Pathfinder or something along those lines? If so, your first step is clear:

1) Change the game system.

Seriously. D&D is not the ideal game for the kind of thing you trying to do. The game system should be something more lethal but not "call of cthulhu-lethal". If you have a ton of hp and the cleric can always remove the really bad stuff, it's hard to be concerned.

Also, magic in those other games can be really helpful but not so helpful that it includes sustained flight, teleportation, contingencies, resurrection, "murder mystery solver"-spells and other "I win"-spells. They are really cool spells but they aren't for all types of games.

Actually I was thinking about breaking in D&D players for WoD. Innocents, to be specific.

That said, with a game like WoD, it's not necessarily death that I want my players to fear. That should be part of it, but they also need to feel the weight of a black and gray world. Fixing things is risky, and there's a good chance you'll just break something else in the process...or at the very least have to choose between morally uncomfortable alternatives.

endur
2015-02-03, 07:34 PM
Is this D&D, Pathfinder or something along those lines? If so, your first step is clear:

1) Change the game system.

Seriously. D&D is not the ideal game for the kind of thing you trying to do. The game system should be something more lethal but not "call of cthulhu-lethal". If you have a ton of hp and the cleric can always remove the really bad stuff, it's hard to be concerned.

Also, magic in those other games can be really helpful but not so helpful that it includes sustained flight, teleportation, contingencies, resurrection, "murder mystery solver"-spells and other "I win"-spells. They are really cool spells but they aren't for all types of games.

If you keep the levels low (i.e. level 6 or less), then none of the magic abilities mentioned above would be available to the PCs.

Vampires, Ghosts, Wights, etc. are scary to 5th level characters.

Don't forget the Ravenloft setting.

Segev
2015-02-05, 04:07 PM
WoD:Innocents?

Oh, you've done a fair bit of the work just by picking that system.

They're playing children in the modern world, but a version where things go bump in the night. Innocents don't "win fights" in a lethal sense. If it comes to a lethal fight, they run. This should be fairly clear from the book and the mechanics.

But the thing is, you take the "introduce the monster slowly" approach from above, and extend it. The monsters aren't there to fight. They aren't going to give them a stand-up fight.

The innocents can't fight them, because to even prepare for a stand-up fight requires getting around all the obstacles of a well-meaning adult world that's just trying to keep them safe from all the wrong dangers. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdultsAreUseless) Don't let them get face-to-face with the monster in a way that they could even try to have a life-or-death fight. The adults who are clueless will see them playing a dangerous game or are getting involved in Bad Things that are mundane but still hazardous. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdultFear)

Worse, if the kids keep trying to sneak around to get to a stand-up fight, the adults will start to think something is wrong with them. They'll be worried that they're being abused, or that they're mentally ill, or worse.

What you do when the PCs try to take it like, well, D&D heroes, is you have an adult interfere. Not maliciously, but with the best intentions. It's time to come inside. You shouldn't be playing with weapons; somebody could get hurt. What do you think you're doing with that!?

And the adult should be one the PCs don't want to hurt, or can't afford to hurt. A parent, a teacher, a well-meaning neighbor.

And that adult's interference forces them to either fight the adult (which will cause all sorts of problems of its own; what happens if children assault grown-ups?), or be dragged off...and then the monster gets the innocent NPC they thought they were protecting.

This should help get the message across that direct confrontation won't work because the adults won't let it be an option.

Don't be afraid to let the Innocents weaponize adults, though: if it's a horror with which adults can deal, like a mundane but depraved child molester or cannibal cult, let the kids get the adults involved and have their victory be the exposure of it.

Just remember that adults can die, too, and monsters don't care. So if the Innocents try to weaponize them and the adults aren't ready for the true threat...the adults may not survive. And now the kids have the other adults, who don't know what's going on, to worry about. Are they going to blame the kids, or be worried about them? Are they going to get themselves killed trying to help?

Innocents structures itself very well for the kind of horror you want. Adults are not totally worthless, but they're more obstacle than help because they don't take you seriously, and if they do take you seriously, they probably are more worried about what you're saying because they think it means something else is wrong and abusing or harming you.

Innocents aren't heroes in the D&D or even the traditional horror sense. The grown-ups don't want them to be; children should never be in that kind of danger. And yet, Innocent PCs are still the ones who have to deal with it, because they're there, and they see it, and they aren't jaded by mundane reality to the point that they think it's something other than the horror that it is. Beating it is never going to be about straight-up combat. Children just can't fight on that level unless the horror is a tiny little thing, itself (like a goblin, at most). And again, they're not supposed to be using serious weapons; grown-ups will prevent this "for their own good."

So good choice of system. Play up the "not an adult" aspect to enforce the helplessness that is serious but not complete. They lack authority and the structures meant to keep them safe instead tie their hands...but still can do their job correctly often enough, if the Innocents recognize it. But it's never about direct confrontation. It's about maneuvering it into exposing itself, because that's the only way they can weaponize adults without getting the adults killed.

Segev
2015-02-05, 04:08 PM
Incidentally, I periodically have the urge to run an Innocents game where they find a creepy hole through which Bad Things (mostly undead-related) come.

Crawling through, they'd meet the Dowager of the Irreverent Vulgate in Unrent Veils, who is all too eager to adopt any of them that die to the monsters...

And then play with the two worlds and their newfound ... nature ... in the Earthly one.

WarKitty
2015-02-06, 08:15 AM
So I'm guessing the idea I had that there's some sort of reality protection on the orphanage the kids are in that prevents adults from getting close to supernatural stuff or letting kids get near it was a good one? Really, it was installed for the kid's own good - the place was originally designed to help kids with past dealings with the supernatural to forget all about it and go on to lead healthy, normal lives. Plus of course since it's a nice modern group home, there's all sorts of security features. Mostly designed to ensure that no one's doing drugs and there aren't any cases of teen pregnancy.

Really, I was planning on them spending the first bit of the game just sneaking around trying to figure out why they all have weird backgrounds and annoying them with bureaucrats.

Segev
2015-02-06, 09:32 AM
If the "reality ward" was meant to protect kids with past exposure to the supernatural from re-exposure, why would it only keep adults away from it?

I would not suggest such a thing, but it probably is fine. Personally, I'd run without any sense that there's a benign supernatural force "protecting" the kids. Not in so masquerade-protecting a fashion, at least.

Part of horror is a sense of responsibility that you cannot quite meet. If the adults are always safe from the supernatural evil, then it's an easy thing to relax about when adults show up. Sure, the kids might have some awkward explanations, but at least the Evil Thing is hedged away.

If the adults' weirdness censor is more internal, then the kids might worry for the adults. The supernatural horrors have an ally in the adults' desire to rationalize, and can use that to frame anybody who HAS discovered the evil things for the evil things' actions. If you blame a gremlin for tearing up the bed sheets, you're at best a kid trying to get away with something with a foolish lie, and potentially worse, you're hallucinating. If you try to do it as an adult, questions start being asked about whether you're fit to be looking after children at all. And if it moves on to hurting people...well, now there's somebody who's already questionably sane to look to as the culprit. Especially since said somebody, knowing what's going on, might be right there after it happened because he was trying to prevent it.

"This isn't what it looks like! It was the gremlin who cut little Suzy!"

Kids have a slight protection in that the supernatural evil doesn't worry that they can stop it. Nobody will believe them. If an adult sees too much...well, he'll just have to go.

WarKitty
2015-02-06, 10:21 AM
I was probably going to run with a more consensus-ish idea of the reality ward. It's not that it only affects the adults, but that it doesn't really stand up to direct investigation. It affects adults more than kids because adults are just more firmly set in their ideas of reality. It's more like something that turns consensus and paradox up to 11. The primary purpose of the spell was to keep supernatural creatures away from their living space (it should be noted that the kids go to a regular school that's not under this effect). It has the secondary effect of making anyone in the area really adverse to the idea of anything strange going on, to the point of thinking all that supernatural stuff is bunk that should be kept away from kids. It won't stand up to sustained pushing at it, and if the kids compare notes and keep at each other they should collectively stay uninfluenced.