Let's Make This [Digimon RP] You never know till you've tried

[Rakaydos]

Agreed, and i love how we keep agreeing to push certain things off lol

Well, put off until we have the basics in place. One of the reasons they keep getting brought up is because they relate to some of the basic systems- IE, Single vs Split XP relating to specific examples.

Not having M&M, I cant really help much under the hood, but like Rater, I'm interested in keeping development moving.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, put off until we have the basics in place. One of the reasons they keep getting brought up is because they relate to some of the basic systems- IE, Single vs Split XP relating to specific examples.

Not having M&M, I cant really help much under the hood, but like Rater, I'm interested in keeping development moving.

Honestly combat is the simplest part of M&M mechanics, and im still trying to work on how to do special attacks like Nova Blast, Rapid Fire etc. Im planning to just loot from M&M but im not sure how many points they should have for powers at what level.

[Almarck]

We should really make a priorty list so that people know what's needs doing first.


Priorities:
Tamers
Evolution
Combat




On-Hold:
Multiple Digimon
Merging
Humans-as-Digimon
Solo Digimon (no Tamers)


Hm. Shadow, mind making us a Spreadsheet?
While admitedly, I'm the guy with the least experience in M&M, I think I can put my skills as an organizer to some good use.

[Blackhawk748]

Priorities:
Tamers
Evolution
Combat




On-Hold:
Multiple Digimon
Merging
Humans-as-Digimon
Solo Digimon (no Tamers)

I agree here, honestly i may need a few example talents to help work on combat, which i will be happy to help on

Edit: as a working concept, im gonna see how many points it takes to have 2 attacks at maximum level (for your rank obviously) as most digimon seem to have 2. If they want some other abilities they are gonna have to sacrifice a bit of offensive power to do so, but hey flying is worth it.

[Rater202]

I figure that Merging and Humans as Digimon should fall under evolution, but one method of merginf and Spirit Evolution/Bio-Hybrid Evolution are gonne be restricted to a specific archetype, so that can be held off for a bit.

[Rakaydos]

This is my working model:

Baby/In-Training=1
Child/Rookie=2-5
Adult/Champion=6-10
Perfect/Ultimate=11-15
Ultimate/Mega=16-20

My thought was to have a single fixed power level per ranking- IE: Baby 1, Child 3, Adult 5, Perfect 9, Mega 17, but with the possibility to buy modifiers for specific digimon.

[Blackhawk748]

My thought was to have a single fixed power level per ranking- IE: Baby 1, Child 3, Adult 5, Perfect 9, Mega 17, but with the possibility to buy modifiers for specific digimon.

See that doesnt really work with M&M, cuz what do you do with the intervening numbers? Also as we all know not all Adult Digimon are equally powerful.

Though i do get where you coming from, but if we do it that way it gets very hard for an Adult to fight a Perfect, even though it has happened before

[vasharanpaladin]

See that doesnt really work with M&M, cuz what do you do with the intervening numbers? Also as we all know not all Adult Digimon are equally powerful

My suggestion: Grab the most recent version of Pokémon Tabletop United, and base the system on that. This gives you a base at least tangentially similar to the Digimon World games. Grab the resolution mechanics and XP progression off that, and then we can fix the rest once we have our ill-gotten core system.

[Rater202]

I kinda figured that Evolution would be tied to talents somehow, which makes it easier to balance diferant Archetypes by giving them slower or faster rates of evolution.

I'm not married to the concept though.

[Blackhawk748]

My suggestion: Grab the most recent version of Pokémon Tabletop United, and base the system on that. This gives you a base at least tangentially similar to the Digimon World games. Grab the resolution mechanics and XP progression off that, and then we can fix the rest once we have our ill-gotten core system.

PTU is basically, Roll a D20 beat a number. The Accuracy Check, is generally pretty low, and its used only for hitting things with attacks. The XP system is good for swiping though.

The reason im against using their Combat system is 1) it uses HP, which doesnt seem to fit to me and 2) Pokemon has a long, long list of general attacks, whereas each Digimon has their own.


I kinda figured that Evolution would be tied to talents somehow, which makes it easier to balance diferant Archetypes by giving them slower or faster rates of evolution.

I'm not married to the concept though.

I believe this to be the simplest solution.

[vasharanpaladin]

PTU is basically, Roll a D20 beat a number. The Accuracy Check, is generally pretty low, and its used only for hitting things with attacks. The XP system is good for swiping though.

The reason im against using their Combat system is 1) it uses HP, which doesnt seem to fit to me and 2) Pokemon has a long, long list of general attacks, whereas each Digimon has their own.

"Health levels" and "soft damage" and whatever the hell else is used in tabletops are even less fitting. Also, PTU tracks injuries, which do have effects beyond the cosmetic. Remember: Digimon are digital.

The Accuracy Check can get as high as 18 for certain moves (Dynamic Punch, Zap Cannon, Inferno), after the target's evasion is factored in.

And as for the "list of attacks" complaint, that's where the term "cherry picking" applies. You have your core resolution mechanic, you have your skill mechanic, you have your XP mechanic. You have a general attack (Struggle) that everyone has access to. And you have a template for making more attacks on an individual level.



I believe this to be the simplest solution.

No, it's the opposite of simple. A different rate of growth does nothing with regard to game balance and only frustrates players who now have to remember yet another set of rules.

[Rater202]

If we do the WH4K thing and have toal XP earned detemine Rank, then you could just make a "Evolve to X level" Extensio, and then assign it to diferant ranks based on the Archetype of the Child partner.

Chosen Children with the Crest Bear Proesion might be able to reach the Perfect Level at rank... 4, while most Archetypes would get it at five, and the Digimental Wielder would get it at 6.

Then we build off of that-One of the Tamer Progressions unique Extensions is "Matrix Evolution" With the Prerequisites that their Human Rank is... Let's say The Average rank at which a Digimon could reach mega is 15ish, If the Tamer's rank and the Mon's rank are both 15 and the mon can't already reach Mega, then yo gain the ability to Biomerge, but if the Tamer takes that Extension then the Mon can't ever take the "Mega Digivolve" Extension, and we can work out the mechanics of biomerge later.

I'm not sure weather the spirit/Bio-Hybrid Talents for form assumption should be on the Human side or the Digimon side when it comes to forms.

[Rakaydos]

If the OP had wanted PokeRP for his digimon game, he could have played Digimon with the PokeRP.

Building the system ourselves is more difficult, but it lets us make the system fit the shows better.

[Blackhawk748]

No, it's the opposite of simple. A different rate of growth does nothing with regard to game balance and only frustrates players who now have to remember yet another set of rules.

I think me and you are picturing this differently, im picturing this like Dark Heresy, each Archetype has its own progression, but all of them have access to the same stuff (barring several very specific things)

As for the "Health levels" thing, M&M doesnt have those, its literally a save every time an attack gets through and if you fail you take a -1 to further test, eventually you will fail by enough that you are knocked unconscious, which i feel fits Digimon.

Edit: Mostly ninjad

[vasharanpaladin]

If the OP had wanted PokeRP for his digimon game, he could have played Digimon with the PokeRP.


Once again, not listening.

I am not saying "build the game off Pokémon Tabletop."

I am saying "filch from Pokémon Tabletop."

We have a system for modelling 'mons RPG's already. The core of that system is suitable, that does not mean we have to bring all the periphery with it.

We have a system for modelling "near-useless human and actual fighting entity as separate character parts" as well. The core of this system is based in a W40RPG, and would be suitable for this as well.

Regardless of what we choose to start with we will have to work. Some options just involve less work than others.

[Rater202]

I think me and you are picturing this differently, im picturing this like Dark Heresy, each Archetype has its own progression, but all of them have access to the same stuff (barring several very specific things)

Basically this.

You've got several Human Talent Tress and Several Digimon Talent Trees.

Then you get one or two trees for each Archetype and an other Tree for each specific progression path for humans.

And then some Talent Trees for the Digimon are either restricted to or much easier to get for certain combinations of Family or Attribute.

A Hypothetical Talent that let a Digimon Autokill a Mon on a level two or more below it would probably be at the highest ranks.

The Digivolving Talents would be unlocked at different Ranks based on Archetype of the Human, and some Archetypes or progression within the archetype might have alternate options.

[Shadowz1797]

"Step away for dinner and prepare to be bombarded with posts to read through" should be the official motto of our project now. Almarck did you mean a spread sheet of area priority and their completion status?

[Blackhawk748]

Once again, not listening.

I am not saying "build the game off Pokémon Tabletop."

I am saying "filch from Pokémon Tabletop."

We have a system for modelling 'mons RPG's already. The core of that system is suitable, that does not mean we have to bring all the periphery with it.

We have a system for modelling "near-useless human and actual fighting entity as separate character parts" as well. The core of this system is based in a W40RPG, and would be suitable for this as well.

Regardless of what we choose to start with we will have to work. Some options just involve less work than others.

Im not saying we cant loot from, please do. Im just saying i dont think its combat system is for Digimon, also M&M is the only system ive seen that seems to be capable of doing Giant Monster fights with any amount of simplicity, which Digimon turns into at certain points.

[Rater202]

Not really.

Only VenomVamdemon is Kaju Scale. Most of the really big ones are either too big(Ceresmon or Eldarodomon) to be Kaiju or are only 50ish feet tall.

[Blackhawk748]

Not really.

Only VenomVamdemon is Kaju Scale. Most of the really big ones are either too big(Ceresmon or Eldarodomon) to be Kaiju or are only 50ish feet tall.

Ok, they're not true Kaiju, but MetalGreymon is still freakin huge as are several others, and as i said M&M deals with that kind of combat pretty well, mainly because its a Gridless system as well as size not being as massive a modifier as it is in other d20

[vasharanpaladin]

Not really.

Only VenomVamdemon is Kaju Scale. Most of the really big ones are either too big(Ceresmon or Eldarodomon) to be Kaiju or are only 50ish feet tall.

Kaiju means "monster," which all Digimon are by definition. The scale you want is daikaiju, referring to anything in Godzilla's size class or larger.

Adeptus Evangelion is the other system I was referring to. It makes use of subsystem damage similar to Dark Heresy (hell, the original version was built on Dark Heresy), specifically tuned so that an Evangelion (or Angel) that loses a limb can continue to fight at something of a disadvantage. I recommend filching from that if you want to see things like tearing BelialVamdemon apart piece by piece so your Child can make good on a promise to punch him in the nose, or if you want to have a fight with Galacticmon with your players having much, much smaller Digimon~

[Blackhawk748]

Kaiju means "monster," which all Digimon are by definition. The scale you want is daikaiju, referring to anything in Godzilla's size class or larger.

Adeptus Evangelion is the other system I was referring to. It makes use of subsystem damage similar to Dark Heresy (hell, the original version was built on Dark Heresy), specifically tuned so that an Evangelion (or Angel) that loses a limb can continue to fight at something of a disadvantage. I recommend filching from that if you want to see things like tearing BelialVamdemon apart piece by piece so your Child can make good on a promise to punch him in the nose, or if you want to have a fight with Galacticmon with your players having much, much smaller Digimon~

Huh, could be a fun subsystem to pilfer for giant boss fights. EX Apocolymon

[Shadowz1797]

Just shared with those of you who have given me a google account the priority spreadsheet that almarck is working on

[vasharanpaladin]

Huh, could be a fun subsystem to pilfer for giant boss fights. EX Apocolymon

Apocalymon, Armagemon, Arkadimon-S... the D-Reaper~

[Oazard]

I recommend filching from that if you want to see things like tearing BelialVamdemon apart piece by piece so your Child can make good on a promise to punch him in the nose, or if you want to have a fight with Galacticmon with your players having much, much smaller Digimon~

The tilde makes this sentence more creepier than it already is. :smalleek:

[Almarck]

I've set up a very rough notes version of our priorities right now. I can probably be even more specific, but I feel the list as it is now is what we need. As our Project grows and changes, I'll be updating and changing the floor chart.

I have also done the job of setting up a roster of those involved in case we need to coordinate with more people, set up schedules and contact details.

Edit: Scratch that. I just realized how redundant one was. I think a better thing to have might be a work schedule. Aloting X days to which project.

[vasharanpaladin]

The tilde makes this sentence more creepier than it already is. :smalleek:

Considering that Galacticmon is a space-faring Digimon supposedly armed with a weapon capable of one-shotting the Earth? Admit it, it's kinda mean just using it. :smallbiggrin:

[Rater202]

Throw some Super Ultimates at it and it'll die.

[vasharanpaladin]

Throw some Super Ultimates at it and it'll die.

You mean the Super Ultimates that should only ever exist at the DM's behest?

[Rater202]

You mean the Super Ultimates that should only ever exist at the DM's behest?

You and I disagree on this point.

It is a level, and a real one, so we should have rules for it.

[Shadowz1797]

I've set up a very rough notes version of our priorities right now. I can probably be even more specific, but I feel the list as it is now is what we need. As our Project grows and changes, I'll be updating and changing the floor chart.

I have also done the job of setting up a roster of those involved in case we need to coordinate with more people, set up schedules and contact details.

Edit: Scratch that. I just realized how redundant one was. I think a better thing to have might be a work schedule. Aloting X days to which project.

I'm not sure if people glossed over this or what, but this is super important.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm not sure if people glossed over this or what, but this is super important.

Missed that Edit, and that is a very important Edit.

[Almarck]

Well, it's not world ending important, but yeah, knowing what we're doing in what order is a big organizational thing.


You and I disagree on this point.

It is a level, and a real one, so we should have rules for it.

Let's file Super Ultimate and other similar levels into an "Epic levels" sort of thing. At that point, we might as well say that everything has Power +30. Nothing beyond it, just more stacking of power.

Again, let's only deal with this much later.

[vasharanpaladin]

You and I disagree on this point.

It is a level, and a real one, so we should have rules for it.

I did have rules for it. Locked safely away on the GM's side of the screen, where it belongs.

[Rater202]

You and I disagree.

It should be in the players section with the rest of the evolution rules, and you should be able to take it if you reach a high enough rank.

[Blackhawk748]

I did have rules for it. Locked safely away on the GM's side of the screen, where it belongs.

Im just gonna say that my current ranking system has no upper limit, and has no special term for Post-Ultimates, they're just really powerful Ultimates as far as combat is currently concerned.

[Rater202]

I disagree with at as well-there should be something "beyond" ultimate, simply because the franchise had so many different ways past Ultimate.

Super Ultimate is one way of doing it. There are others.

If ones Rank gets high enough, one should be able to use those powers.

[vasharanpaladin]

You and I disagree.

It should be in the players section with the rest of the evolution rules, and you should be able to take it if you reach a high enough rank.

Three out of five Super Ultimate Digimon are antagonists and the remaining two are Deus Ex Machina specifically to beat them. It goes in the DM section by default, and clearly labeled optional for player use.

[Blackhawk748]

I disagree with at as well-there should be something "beyond" ultimate, simply because the franchise had so many different ways past Ultimate.

Super Ultimate is one way of doing it. There are others.

If ones Rank gets high enough, one should be able to use those powers.

Which is why im leaving that to you guys, as i have no clue how to handle that.

Hell why dont we just put it in the "Supplimental Rules"section? That way if they want it they can have it.

[Rater202]

Three out of five Super Ultimate Digimon are antagonists and the remaining two are Deus Ex Machina specifically to beat them. It goes in the DM section by default, and clearly labeled optional for player use.

Deus Ex Machina implies it came from nowhere, and as Digimon are species, not individuals, any of the "Antagonists" could still be partners.

Name a Super Ultimate digimon that was a Dus Ex Machina.

[vasharanpaladin]

Deus Ex Machina implies it came from nowhere, and as Digimon are species, not individuals, any of the "Antagonists" could still be partners.

Name a Super Ultimate digimon that was a Dus Ex Machina.

No, that would be deus ex nihilo. Deus ex machina is "contrivance for the sake of ensuring an ending in the protagonist's favor."

In which case, Ulforce V-dramon-F and the full-party Susano'omon apply.

Arkadimon was an individual. Daemon was an individual. Armagemon was a collective.

[Rater202]

Arkadimon was an individual, yes, but So was Guilmon.

doesn't stop Other Dukemon from appearing in other continuity.

Hell, another Arkadimon apeared in Crooswars.

Susanoomon was both Forshadowed, and thus not contrived, and was not a Super Ultimate, he was a Mega. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoomon)

Demon is a species, and is not Super ultimate.

Having Trouble finding accurate translations for V-Tamer, so I cna't talk about UlforceVeedramon Future mode, but if a Digimon reaching the next level when it really needs to is a Deus Ex Machina, then so is all of the Adventure Cast Digivolving to rookie, to Champion, to Ultimate, and Agumon and Gabumon gaining Warp Digivolution, as would Armor Digivolving bypassing the Digivolution block in 02, and DNA Digivolving, and Takato Biomerging with Guilmon in Tamers, and Masasuru and ShineGreymon unlocking Burst Mode against Belphemon.

By your logic, all Digivolution should be locked behind the GM screen.

To lock Super Ultimates behind the Gm screen when more or less all digivolution starts as a Deus Ex Machina by your reasoning is a bias.

[Blackhawk748]

Moumantai guys, Moumantai. :smallwink: First off we are no where near Super Ultimates, secondly why dont we just put the caveat on the Talent "Run by DM" because i think we can all agree that not all campaigns should have this as an option.

[vasharanpaladin]

Susanoomon was both Forshadowed, and thus not contrived, and was not a Super Ultimate, he was a Mega. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoomon)
Susano'omon was foreshadowed. But not five-bonder version. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Super_Ultimate_Digimon)



Having Trouble finding accurate translations for V-Tamer, so I cna't talk about UlforceVeedramon Future mode, but if a Digimon reaching the next level when it really needs to is a Deus Ex Machina, then so is all of the Adventure Cast Digivolving to rookie, to Champion, to Ultimate, and Agumon and Gabumon gaining Warp Digivolution, as would Armor Digivolving bypassing the Digivolution block in 02, and DNA Digivolving, and Takato Biomerging with Guilmon in Tamers, and Masasuru and ShineGreymon unlocking Burst Mode against Belphemon.

By your logic, all Digivolution should be locked behind the GM screen.

To lock Super Ultimates behind the Gm screen when more or less all digivolution starts as a Deus Ex Machina by your reasoning is a bias.

Okay, let's sum up. I say players should only assume they have access to the FINAL level, which is Ultimate, meaning, surprise, final. I say this while, to satisfy those who are aware that Super Ultimate Digimon are a thing, placing the next level of power in the GM-only chapter. I see no bias, only logic.

There are SEVEN Super Ultimate Digimon. Two of them from games, the majority antagonists when they appeared. The potential loss from locking the Super Ultimate level behind the GM screen approaches zero when you consider that the majority of fans don't know about it to begin with, and that the GM needs a different scale of power if - to satisfy your love for lore - single bosses are to be a thing in the endgame, with multiple players abound.

To say nothing of the previously indicated desire to regulate how far a player can Digivolve without penalty. It is a simple step from Ultimate being outrageously limited in duration to Super Ultimate being DM fiat.

[Rater202]

Perfect means "can not be improved upon" and one definition of it includes "Complete". Yet there's a level beyond perfect.

Ultimate is just a name. No Reason why you have to Arbitrarily Banish one full level to the limbo beyond the GM screen just because of a name.

This game we are making also will supposedly have rules for making Fakemons, original digimon species, and that includes new Super Ultimates.

Super Ultimates are also suggested, by me, as one of several options for reaching the "Power Beyond Mega", which also included Burst Mode, ultimates, and Mode Changes. Do those deserve to be locked behind the Gm screen?

I don't think so.

Besiders, if a level beyond ultimate Exists, then Ultimate is not the final level. So to exclude the final level because of a name of the level before is, in fact, a bias

Making the final level DM fiat makes no sense, because then there are no rules for it at all.

It's an Evolution. A powerful, Rare Evolution, but still an evolution, and thus should follow the rules of Evolution, and should be in the chapter on Evolution, along with the other Evolutions.

And why regulate levels by short durations? Doing that, it's entirely possible for your Ultimates to be forced to regress to rookie or earlier while fighting an other ultimate who and then TPK happens.

MAking Digimon on lower levels give reduced XP gains compared to same level or higher works better as regulation for keeping levels in bound.

Also, Susanoomon and Armageddemon are both Ultimates, despite what your cotegory page says, and Armageddemon was partner for an NPC in Digimon World 3

[Rakaydos]

What are examples of the 8 digimon types different powers in super ultimate?

What, there's only 7? Guess we dont have enough information to make super-ultimate fairly available to all players. It can still be used to provide cool "final bosses" to GMs, though.

[Rater202]

1. If the option to make your own Digimon is included in the game(no reason it shouldn't be) then players could make their own Super Ultimates.

2. There is no reason to Limit it to the GM characters, especially if we include Mode Changing, Burst Mode, and cases of an ultimate Evolving into an Other Ultimate (Mugendramon to Chaosdramon, WarGreymon+MetalGarurumon to Omegamon) as PC options, in which case it becomes a case of arbitrarily limiting something but allowing other things that have the same end effect.

[vasharanpaladin]

Perfect means "can not be improved upon" and one definition of it includes "Complete". Yet there's a level beyond perfect.

Ultimate is just a name. No Reason why you have to Arbitrarily Banish one full level to the limbo beyond the GM screen just because of a name.

Regarding Perfect and Ultimate: Strictly speaking, they can't coexist. At all. But they do, and changing terminology just to avoid that will accomplish nothing but sowing confusion in the demo. (Following that pattern, though, I'm just going to start calling the next step up "Supreme," just because I know it'll eventually become a thing anyway and I really want to save keystrokes.) As you say, Perfect "can't be improved upon," and the reveal of a further stage was a plot twist. Ultimate is "the last," and revealing another, "the greatest" Supreme stage afterward, well... no, let's keep this under control.



This game we are making also will supposedly have rules for making Fakemons, original digimon species, and that includes new Super Ultimates.

Super Ultimates are also suggested, by me, as one of several options for reaching the "Power Beyond Mega", which also included Burst Mode, ultimates, and Mode Changes. Do those deserve to be locked behind the Gm screen?

I don't think so.

And neither do I. Burst Mode is, as pointed out, a temporary increase in power. Mode Change is, or should be, a reallocation of existing power to optimize for a situation. A Jogress between two Ultimate Digimon creates one that is only "Supreme" because of its expanded action economy, not a true Supreme Digimon.



Besiders, if a level beyond ultimate Exists, then Ultimate is not the final level. So to exclude the final level because of a name of the level before is, in fact, a bias

...And here we go. "Its use is justified by its existence." This is why I don't like making games out of existing franchises, this is why the fans shouldn't be the ones doing it, this is why the players shouldn't run the asylum. I should note that I have made this exact argument several times before, as a player. Just because it exists does not mean you should assume it is usable. Putting it in with the rest will only lead players to insist that every game must therefore include Supreme Digimon. Conversely, locking it into GM-only territory will only lead GM's to insist that nobody can ever use it.

I will say again: There are seven Supreme Digimon across canon. Four of them were presented as antagonists, one of them was in a medium that it is near guaranteed everyone looking at this game has seen. Therefore, nothing is truly lost if this level is placed in the GM chapter with suggestions for appropriate use.



Making the final level DM fiat makes no sense, because then there are no rules for it at all.

It's an Evolution. A powerful, Rare Evolution, but still an evolution, and thus should follow the rules of Evolution, and should be in the chapter on Evolution, along with the other Evolutions.

Bolded relevant. Rarity and power is an argument in favor of keeping it out of player sections.



And why regulate levels by short durations? Doing that, it's entirely possible for your Ultimates to be forced to regress to rookie or earlier while fighting an other ultimate who and then TPK happens.

Well, at the time it was the only suggestion that suited the lore...



MAking Digimon on lower levels give reduced XP gains compared to same level or higher works better as regulation for keeping levels in bound.
So now you're appealing to the games that you were so keen on casting aside?



Also, Susanoomon and Armageddemon are both Ultimates, despite what your cotegory page says, and Armageddemon was partner for an NPC in Digimon World 3
You want to use technicalities, I'll use them to. Seven Supreme Digimon, unless and until that page is edited.

[Rakaydos]

1. If the option to make your own Digimon is included in the game(no reason it shouldn't be) then players could make their own Super Ultimates.

With what abilities?

The problem is that we just dont know enough about Super Ultimates to make a "build your own" chart.

[vasharanpaladin]

What are examples of the 8 digimon types different powers in super ultimate?

What, there's only 7? Guess we dont have enough information to make super-ultimate fairly available to all players. It can still be used to provide cool "final bosses" to GMs, though.

And the 7 that exist aren't even all in different families. Armagemon and Arkadimon are Dark Area; Daemon, Chronomon DM and Susano'omon are Nightmare Soldiers; Susano'omon and Chronomon Holy are Virus Busters; and Ulforce V-dramon-F is a Wind Guardian.

[Rater202]

Regarding Perfect and Ultimate: Strictly speaking, they can't coexist. At all. But they do, and changing terminology just to avoid that will accomplish nothing but sowing confusion in the demo. (Following that pattern, though, I'm just going to start calling the next step up "Supreme," just because I know it'll eventually become a thing anyway and I really want to save keystrokes.) As you say, Perfect "can't be improved upon," and the reveal of a further stage was a plot twist. Ultimate is "the last," and revealing another, "the greatest" Supreme stage afterward, well... no, let's keep this under control. and revealing an other level beyond the last was another Plot Twist. Excusing Ultimate being beyond perfect as a plot twist means that you must also excuse Super Ultimate asa plot twist by the same logic.


And neither do I. Burst Mode is, as pointed out, a temporary increase in power. Mode Change is, or should be, a reallocation of existing power to optimize for a situation. A Jogress between two Ultimate Digimon creates one that is only "Supreme" because of its expanded action economy, not a true Supreme Digimon.[quote] All of those effects result ina stronger Digimon, all of them end at the end of the fight, unless it would be dramatic to end it sooner, and Mode Chsnge was a straight power boost from the second it was introduced, so what you think it should be is irrelevant.



[quote]...And here we go. "Its use is justified by its existence." This is why I don't like making games out of existing franchises, this is why the fans shouldn't be the ones doing it, this is why the players shouldn't run the asylum. I should note that I have made this exact argument several times before, as a player. Just because it exists does not mean you should assume it is usable. Putting it in with the rest will only lead players to insist that every game must therefore include Supreme Digimon. Conversely, locking it into GM-only territory will only lead GM's to insist that nobody can ever use it. And that's what I have a problem with. Especially since it was, in fact, used by "Players" in the original works it draws from


I will say again: There are seven Supreme Digimon across canon. Four of them were presented as antagonists, one of them was in a medium that it is near guaranteed everyone looking at this game has seen. Therefore, nothing is truly lost if this level is placed in the GM chapter with suggestions for appropriate use. Why don't you actually check the pages they leed to. Susanoomon is listed as a Mega, as is Armageddemon. And Digimon are Species. Just because those individuals were antagonists does not means they are always antagonists.




Bolded relevant. Rarity and power is an argument in favor of keeping it out of player sections. Strictly Speaking, Ultimate is also a reare and very powerful Evolution-very few Digimon reach it. If Rarity means "Not allowed unless GM says so and then it's fiat" then we shoulsn't allow Ultimate Levels




Well, at the time it was the only suggestion that suited the lore... name one example of a Digimon of any level who's form didn't have a duration of "As long as the plot needs it to last".

Limiting Duration onlt suits the lore in the case of Golden Armor Evolutions, and Only because Magnamon was specifically called out as burning through his energy rapidly.



So now you're appealing to the games that you were so keen on casting aside? I never cast anything asside, and "Lower Level Digimon give less combat experience" as a way of regulating use of high level forms was something that I personally suggested back when the concern came up.

Or, in other words, I ain't got not clue what you're taling about here, as my insistence or maintaining the lore leeds to no contradiction.


You want to use technicalities, I'll use them to. Seven Supreme Digimon, unless and until that page is edited.
Susanoomon is listed, on his Page (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoomon), as aMega, not an Ultimate. Armeggedemon's table lists him as a Mega, not a Super Ultimate.

And besides, limited number means nothing if players can make fakemon, and with the "Real" Super Ultimates we have enough Data to create rules for it once we have rules for the other forms.

[Rakaydos]

I disagree. I feel there is not enough information about digimon beyond Mega to make it something in the PHB. If you dont want it in the DMG, perhaps it can wait for the epic level handbook.

Out of curiosity, how would you challange a group of superultimates?

[Almarck]

So... to get ready for this project, I am going to be going through a two week long archive binge off of the series I have not watched. My recollections of all the others is pretty solid enough otherwise.

And yeah, I think the "Epic Level Handbook" solution is the neatest one. The information of levels past Mega is rather sparse for the mean time.

[vasharanpaladin]

Yep, and now I don't care anymore.

Seven Supreme Digimon do not make a sufficient data sample, especially when you insist on cutting some out just because one page conflicts with another. Because, by your logic? There are only three Supreme Digimon, making it well within right to dismiss the entire concept as a fluke.

Now, I'm going to remind you again: We are making a collaborative role-playing game out of a story written by a single individual with the outcome already in mind. Out of a medium in which, yes, PvP has been a thing. So, yes, if lore conflicts with mechanics, it must be mechanics that take primacy.

Similar mechanics can and must be conflated for the sake of simplicity: Digivolution between levels is functionally identical between Adventure, Tamers and Savers, therefore they will be treated the same. A mechanic for limiting the ability to cut a bloody swathe across creation using one's Perfect form already exists: Takato takes empathic feedback the first time Growmon Digivolves to MegaloGrowmon. The logical conclusion is that this is the norm, and further evolutions to the Perfect level are made after taking extensions that mitigate this feedback. Comparatively, Takuya and the rest of the Frontier group could be solidly knocked out of their Digimon forms, something that was also demonstrated in other seasons.

Logic: An Adult- or higher-ranked Digimon can be knocked out of its current stage by a strong enough attack. A Perfect- or higher-ranked Digimon shares whatever damage it takes with its bonded human and, again logically expanding this, can also degenerate if the tamer is knocked out by this damage.

By the time Ultimate-rank Digimon appear, the tamers have taken so many extensions to mitigate feedback that it's no longer an effective drawback or opportunity cost. At this point, we'll refer to your generous example of Magnamon: Ultimate-rank Digimon have a limited amount of time to perform before they must degenerate. Once again, extensions may or may not be available to mitigate this drawback.

So, once again with an eye to logic, what must the limit be for attaining the Supreme rank? My answer is that it must be a plot token. The possibility of a Supreme-rank Digimon, if it exists, exists entirely at the DM's behest. Armagemon needed to be greater-than-Ultimate in order to serve the story's purposes, and therefore became Supreme. Susano'omon needed the same, and was given it. As was Ulforce V-dramon.

And, before this starts another crap-flinging competition, consider this: If "Mode Change" or "Burst Mode" were truly sufficient to reach a true "post Ultimate" ranking, we'd have a lot more than seven Supreme-rank Digimon on that list. So the difference between, say, ShineGreymon Burst Mode, and Ulforce V-dramon Future Mode, is a full order of magnitude. You want your Mode Change to stay a straight increase in power? Your Burst Mode to be considered "post Ultimate," despite being usable by a Child-rank Digimon? Then the Supreme rank is an incomparable beast.

[Rater202]

I disagree. I feel there is not enough information about digimon beyond Mega to make it something in the PHB. If you dont want it in the DMG, perhaps it can wait for the epic level handbook.

Out of curiosity, how would you challange a group of superultimates?

Other Super ultimates or with a large number of Ultimates.

We have about as much information about the abilities of Super Ultimates as we do the abilities of other levels. Once we've worked out how the baby 1-Ultimate Levels will work in game mechanics, we'll be able to do Super ultimates and Burst Modes and Everything Else.

I want this to be one option among many, only available to those who reach the highest Echelons of the game's ranking system. It should be an option right along Burst Mode or Mode Changing or those "post Megas"

If we include Burst Mode or mode change in the core book, then there's no reason to leave out Super Ultimate.
Burst Evolution (バースト・エボリューション Bāsuto Eboryūshon?) is used in Digimon Data Squad and in Digimon Next. In Data Squad, it is a Mode Change, it enables a Mega Digimon to reach its Burst Mode; an even more-powerful form. The call is "Charge! D.N.A. Burst Mode!" in English, and "Charge! Digisoul Burst!" in Japanese. ShineGreymon, MirageGaogamon, Rosemon, Ravemon, and BanchoLeomon have all managed to get to Burst Mode. In the series finale, Agumon achieves a form resembling Burst Mode, with energy surrounding his body, but it is never confirmed to be a Burst Mode level.

From the Wiki Page on Digivolution.

Burst Mode is a more powerful form, beyond Mega, Explicitly. It's even said so once in the Savers Anime.

There's no such thing a s "Supreme" Digimon. It's Super Ultimate, and that's just one kind of beyond Mega. We've also got megas Digivolving into stronger Megas, and Digimon Mode Shagin into stronger forms(ImperialDramon Fighter Mode is explicitly 10X Stronger than Imperial Dramon).

There are Seven Super Ultimates, two of which on that list don't belong there, because Super Ultimate is only one way to go beyond Mega.

Incidentally, Agumon's Mode Change was never referred to as Burst Mode in canon or by devs. That's entirely Fanon.

[Rakaydos]

Other Super ultimates or with a large number of Ultimates.

We have about as much information about the abilities of Super Ultimates as we do the abilities of other levels. Once we've worked out how the baby 1-Ultimate Levels will work in game mechanics, we'll be able to do Super ultimates and Burst Modes and Everything Else.

I want this to be one option among many, only available to those who reach the highest Echelons of the game's ranking system. It should be an option right along Burst Mode or Mode Changing or those "post Megas"

If we include Burst Mode or mode change in the core book, then there's no reason to leave out Super Ultimate.

From the Wiki Page on Digivolution.

Burst Mode is a level beyond Mega, Explicitly. It's even said so once in the Savers Anime.

There's no such thing a s "Supreme" Digimon. It's Super Ultimate, and that's just one kind of beyond Mega. We've also got megas Digivolving into stronger Megas, and Digimon Mode Shagin into stronger forms(ImperialDramon Fighter Mode is explicitly 10X Stronger than Imperial Dramon).

There are Seven Super Ultimates, two of which on that list don't belong there, because Super Ultimate is only one way to go beyond Mega.

Incidentally, Agumon's Mode Change was never referred to as Burst Mode in canon or by devs. That's entirely Fanon.

Epic level handbook, all of it.

[vasharanpaladin]

There's no such thing a s "Supreme" Digimon.

You're the one who wanted to continue an inane argument, I'm not wasting keystrokes on a name that sounds increasingly stupid the more I have to think about it. So. I'm going to offer a compromise.

If you're going to insist upon placing something without a reasonable sample for power ranking - while reducing the already pitiful size of said sample, I might add! - into player hands, I'm going to insist on calling it something less stupid that actually follows the same damnable logic already established by the ranking system we're talking about.

I, for one, find my side of that to be much more reasonable.

[Rater202]

Why would we have an Epic Level Handbook instead of just putting it all in the document?

We're the one making the game, and this is not' for profit. we have no deadline that the finished product has to come from.

As we're the ones making the game, we could well make th mechanics fit the Lore.

We know about as much of the capabilities of Super Ultimate Digimon as we know about the Capabilities of other Digimon. Once we have frame work by which the capabilities of other Levels woek, ther'e no reason not to.

Besides, we have a massive sample of Digimon whose power level is beyong that of a mega. It's just that Super ltimate Digimon are the least common type of "Post Ultimate" Digimon.

"Post Ultimate" is a stage that the strongest Digimon can reach. Super Ultimate Level Digimon are one kind of reaching this stage. There are others.

Make each of the others have it's own pros and cons.

Problem solved.

@vasharanpaladin : Why are you being so hostile? All I'm doing is exposing that I do not believe that excluding one specific variety of reaching the "post mega" power level to GM fiat makes sense. I continue making this point because you have yet to provide an argument that convinces me that it should be.

I also dislike making up terms instead of using the canon terms.

There is no "Supreme" level. The Stages that go passed ultimate are, canonically, "Super Ultimate" and "Burst Mode"

[Almarck]

It's a classification and prioritization issue. Filing it all as "Epic Level Handbook" is an easy way to say that this is the largely on the drawing board state Endgame. We don't need to focus on anything past Mega yet. When that time comes, we can discuss the nature and specifics of post-Mega power, but for now, I'd rather we have a working, stable system to run at the lowest and up to Mega levels if at all possible.

I know you guys are all passionate about this project, which is why you're having this discussion, but please don't let said passions be your undoing.

[Rater202]

I'm not saying we do it now. I'm saying it belongs in the players section where it can be used by anyone who reaches the appropriate level of power.

[Rakaydos]

I'm not saying we do it now. I'm saying it belongs in the players section where it can be used by anyone who reaches the appropriate level of power.

Since when was "Epic spellcasting" in the PHB?

[Rater202]

It's not.

It is however, in the SRD, which means it's part of the core rules.

What I want to know is, why would we put rules in more than one book, when we have no deadline and no reason not to put it all in.

[Rakaydos]

It is, however, in a completely different section of the SRD, just like Psionics. Many games do not use it. Just like the various flavors of beyond-mega are not used in every series.

[vasharanpaladin]

@Rater202: That is exactly how stale this discussion is getting. We have multiple people working on this project, there will necessarily be compromise. You want this in a place where anyone can see it, my argument is that there is in fact a point where a line must be drawn with regards to what players should and should not simply assume is in use in a given game. I want things simplified and codified, you're getting rustled over every little perceived change.

So, I tell you now, in this particular case, how is "Supreme" such a bad thing? It is more succinct. It follows the established (still ridiculous) schema. It does, in fact, define that level of power. And, with the amount of argument you've given on the subject, I'm prepared to be quoted as saying nothing would be lost if we folded Mode Change and Burst Mode into it. Regardless, it's still comparable to Adeptus Evangelion putting S2 Engines in the normal upgrade tables!

[Rater202]

That does not mean it has to be locked beyond the GM screen and only have rules that function based entirely on GM Fiat.

Neither Psionics nor Epic Levels are fiat, and neither are in a GM's only section.

And really, if we put "There is a stage of power beyond Ultimate, some mons get it by evolving into a stronger level, some get it by mode change, some use Burst Evolution, and some evolve to stronger forms without changing levels. This option is only for high level game play, and thus make sure that everybody is at that level before allowing it. some options for reaching this level of power may not be appropriate." Right before showing the talents that represent the various methods of reaching that level and their pros and cons, then that's all we need.

No Extra Epic Level Supplement needed.

I dislike Supreme because it's a term that has no base in the canon of the franchise, and by folding th various methods of achieving that power together, you lose the nuance between them and give the talent a single "Everyone must take this power" instead of a group of "These let you move up tot he final level" powers, some of which might be restricted to certain characters.

After Ultimate in the Table, put an asterix

In a foot note, mention the above "Power Beyond Ultimate" paragraph and a page number for the ways to reach that power.

[Rakaydos]

I dislike Supreme because it's a term that has no base in the canon of the franchise, and by folding th various methods of achieving that power together, you lose the nuance between them...

Mutants and Masterminds doest do mechanical nuance. it does "your power blast has these effects, flavor to choice"

If you want mechanical nuance between every subtle difference between the shows, you can leave the thread now- it's not going to happen, and demanding it is only irritating people who are actually trying to put a workable game togther.

[vasharanpaladin]

That does not mean it has to be locked beyond the GM screen and only have rules that function based entirely on GM Fiat.

Neither Psionics nor Epic Levels are fiat, and neither are in a GM's only section.

First, I resent appeals to the SRD, as it encourages an "only X books are core" mentality. Recall that comparison I made between us, Rater? My stance as a player is "if it exists and is published by the first party, it is core." And that's how it should be.



And really, if we put "There is a stage of power beyond Ultimate, some mons get it by evolving into a stronger level, some get it by mode change, some use Burst Evolution, and some evolve to stronger forms without changing levels. This option is only for high level game play, and thus make sure that everybody is at that level before allowing it. some options for reaching this level of power may not be appropriate." Right before showing the talents that represent the various methods of reaching that level and their pros and cons, then that's all we need.


I resent the implication that this and placing them in the GM chapter are somehow mutually exclusive. If you want to get across that these are not meant for normal play (that is, to be part of the default game assumption), you put them in the DM chapter and add a note to the effect of "Hey! Sometimes Digimon might be able to become stronger than Ultimate rank. If you want your players to do it too, show them these extensions."

And then you have it taken safely away from players who might tend to spring it on unsuspecting DM's, while still allowing it to be used if the DM wants it for his campaign.



No Extra Epic Level Supplement needed.

I think the idea might have been more along the lines of "basic stuff first, window dressing later." Not necessarily a "supplement," though to answer your question the reason for splitting books up would be to ease fatigue on potential players. Book 1 contains the core rules and the basic Adventure/Tamers/Savers-style partner Digimon. Book 2 expands on that with Digimental, Jogress and Biomerge evolution. Book 3 then has Bio/Hybrid "Digimorph" stuff. This collects related rules together in smaller packets, reducing time spent hunting down what's relevant to your chosen archetype.



I dislike Supreme because it's a term that has no base in the canon of the franchise

Stop. Codify and simplify. We have seven "Super Ultimate" Digimon across the franchise. Three, if we go by your reckoning, which also puts them all in the same series and thus able to be dismissed as a fluke. "Super Ultimate" is silly, and silly names don't tend to convey the gravitas of what they're meant to represent. Further, by your argument one of those three would technically fall under a Mode Change.

"Supreme," then, would be the catch-all for "post Ultimate" forms. Following the logic of the previous two ranks, it means "the greatest." Mode Change and Burst Mode thus become methods to reach the Supreme rank (remember: simplify. If we must choose between canon and mechanics, we must err on the side of mechanics), while "natural" supremacy is something unsuited for players (remember, the DM should have some templates solely on his side, to make single bosses viable against a group of players).

And, yes, this is still a patently ridiculous discussion. If you're going to keep being rustled about something not being by default available to players, I'm going to keep being rustled about having to use thirteen keystrokes each time I need to refer to it.



, and by folding th various methods of achieving that power together, you lose the nuance between them and give the talent a single "Everyone must take this power" instead of a group of "These let you move up tot he final level" powers, some of which might be restricted to certain characters.

Every player gets equal access or none of them do. Locking something like this behind specific archetypes is the greatest sin we can make here, even more so than defaulting to player access.

[Rater202]

I resent the implication that this and placing them in the GM chapter are somehow mutually exclusive. If you want to get across that these are not meant for normal play (that is, to be part of the default game assumption), you put them in the DM chapter and add a note to the effect of "Hey! Sometimes Digimon might be able to become stronger than Ultimate rank. If you want your players to do it too, show them these extensions." Here's the thing, losts of GM's see something in the GM chapter and will then go "Well, since it's not in the players section, players don't get to use it ever, even if it would be logical for them to do so. Meanwhile, I can use it no matter what" then get confused when the players get TPK'd when they go up against a Super Ultimate while they can only reach perfect.


And then you have it taken safely away from players who might tend to spring it on unsuspecting DM's, while still allowing it to be used if the DM wants it for his campaign. And this encourages that same behavior that I want to discourage, as it leads to GM entitlement.

And you can't "Spring it" on an unsuspecting GM. Gms have to approve the choices players make as being appropriate to the campaign, in pretty much every RPG, and if we set ranks at a max o 25 and Put the PU form extensions in the 23-25 range, and the campaign get's to the 23-25 Range, the GM really can't be surprised if the players ask about those extensions.




I think the idea might have been more along the lines of "basic stuff first, window dressing later." Not necessarily a "supplement," though to answer your question the reason for splitting books up would be to ease fatigue on potential players. Book 1 contains the core rules and the basic Adventure/Tamers/Savers-style partner Digimon. Book 2 expands on that with Digimental, Jogress and Biomerge evolution. Book 3 then has Bio/Hybrid "Digimorph" stuff. This collects related rules together in smaller packets, reducing time spent hunting down what's relevant to your chosen archetype.Problem, splitting up books would split Archetypes in half, since one progrerssion path for "The Chosen"(might need better name) Arhetype has Digimentals as it's shtick, and Biomerge really doen's t need to be speperate from the basic progression, it's just an alternat way of reaching the mega. No reason we can't put it in the core along with the only Proresion path that gets it.

It aso leaves an entire Archetype out of the main document, and if it's not in the main document, then there are GMs that will see "It's in a supplement, so it's not core, so I can just say no wit no other excuse than core only" and yes, there are GMs like that.




Stop. Codify and simplify. We have seven "Super Ultimate" Digimon across the franchise. Three, if we go by your reckoning, which also puts them all in the same series and thus able to be dismissed as a fluke. "Super Ultimate" is silly, and silly names don't tend to convey the gravitas of what they're meant to represent. Further, by your argument one of those three would technically fall under a Mode Change. 5, and I see nothing wrogn with super Ultimate. Especially when you consider that in the english version, the "Mega" level is short for "Mega Ultimate"


"Supreme," then, would be the catch-all for "post Ultimate" forms. Following the logic of the previous two ranks, it means "the greatest." Mode Change and Burst Mode thus become methods to reach the Supreme rank (remember: simplify. If we must choose between canon and mechanics, we must err on the side of mechanics), while "natural" supremacy is something unsuited for players (remember, the DM should have some templates solely on his side, to make single bosses viable against a group of players). PU-Post ultimate, catch all term for Digimon who have assumed forms that go beyond the power of their Ultimate Stage form. Refers to Burst Mode, Mode changes like Imperialdramon's, Ultimates digivolving or Jogress Digivolving into other, stronger Ultimates like WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon becoming Omegamon or BlackWarGreymon Digivolving into Omegamon Zwart, and the rare Super Ultimates"

Then we give multiple extensions, each with their own pros and cons


And, yes, this is still a patently ridiculous discussion. If you're going to keep being rustled about something not being by default available to players, I'm going to keep being rustled about having to use thirteen keystrokes each time I need to refer to it. PU-Post ultimate. 2 keystrokes, and we don't have to make up terms that have no basis in canon.




Every player gets equal access or none of them do. Locking something like this behind specific archetypes is the greatest sin we can make here, even more so than defaulting to player access.
I said that Certain methods of reaching that level might be limited to certain characters-Burst Evolution works off of Digisoul. If we may or may not decide to Limit to Characters that Use Digisoul, Agents and Bio-Hybrids. I wouldn't, but it is a possibility.

[Rakaydos]

Show of hands- does anyone think Rater's view is valid?

As a tamers exclusive viewer, I dont even know WTF a post-ultimate even is- I see no reason to make it a default assumtion - if a gm isnt letting you access endgame content, it's probably because his campain isnt set up to handle it. (again, how do you challange a full party of post ultimates?)

[Rater202]

In your Experiences, Beelzemon Blast Mode and Gallantmon Crimson Mode would be Post Ultimate.

They Are Digimon assuming forms that are more Powerful than their Ultimate Forms.

Also note that level is not a strict measure of Power. ultimate Level HolyAngemon fought Mega Level Piedmon and drove him off while Mega Levels WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon were not able to come close to harming him.

Another Example, Lucemon, outside of his mode changes, is a Child Level Digimon. He curbstomped MagnaGarurumon and KaiserGreymon, who equivalent to second mega Digimon like Omegamon Zwart or Chaosdramon

[Shadowz1797]

Show of hands- does anyone think Rater's view is valid?

As a tamers exclusive viewer, I dont even know WTF a post-ultimate even is- I see no reason to make it a default assumtion - if a gm isnt letting you access endgame content, it's probably because his campain isnt set up to handle it. (again, how do you challange a full party of post ultimates?)

On an iPad, so this is gonna be a bitch to type.
While I see the sides both of you are coming from,nfor the sake of this as a tabletop game I think I need to go with Vasharan. Both of your arguments are assumption based on how people will interact with the books/supps we put out, so they both could be right. However, just because the information is in the DM (how were referring to it correct?) Handbook does not in anyway mean that players won't have access to the information. Not all DMs are going to want to include PUs in their campaigns, and if players feel inclined to take those PU talents bc they're within the player handbook, It could be destructive to the DMs vision. Two points to go off of that, 1) were all human, if players are legitimately concerned they won't be able to progress or really want a PU form they can simply ASK the DM. With a note included in the DM handbook saying that "these don't necessarily need to be included in campaigns but sure can be, give players x,y,z info if you want them included" all problems are solved. (2) also just to show my thinking as the OP. While I do think we should stay extremely close to the already established lore and guidelines of the digimon universe, there are lines that need to be drawn bc as mentioned In my first ever post, this project is to create a viable and entertaining tabletop rpg, and sometimes compromises between lore and gameplay are necessary.
EDIT: additional point. As much as we can want to side with the players and realizing their digimon dreams, DMs and their vision are necessary to any sort of campaign, keep that in mind everybody.
EDIT 2: we can make a different name for these PU digimon, maybe like enlightened, apex, etc.
Thanks,
My vote is with vasharan

[Rater202]

If t's in the GM section, then the mentality by most people is "players don't get it no matter what"

If the campaign reached a point where the Players are at a point where they meet the prerequisites for taking these extensions, they should be able to take these extensions.

If they're locked away in the GM part of the book, chances are players might not even know they're there, and chances are they'll be denied access to them even if it would be logical for them to have access to them, such as in cases where they're already at the maximum rank and one of those extensions ins the only way to grow.

It's already going to be a case of "If the GM says it's okay" simply because the players can't play a character that doesn't fit the GMs campaign.

Locking it way in the GMs section just gives the gM an excuse to not think of a legitimate reason to deny it to a player once the player is a high enough level to take it.

and that is not behavior we want to encourage with this game, as that kind of behavior leads to rage quitting and people blaming the game.

And I really don't see how "This thing that happened in every continuity of the franchise at least once" can possibly be optional.

[Shadowz1797]

Your use of the phrase "locked away" if can't understand, players have access to the GM information, and those getting familiar with a system will most definitely read it. Otherwise, out of sight out of mind and GMs don't have to deal with it if it's not a part of their campaign.

[Rater202]

I'm using the phrasing that vasharanpaladin used. Saying that Post ultimate level power belongs locked away beyond the Gm screen where it only happens due to GM fiat.

[Rakaydos]

In your Experiences, Beelzemon Blast Mode and Gallantmon Crimson Mode would be Post

Arnt those just the same megas, with more xp spent? A stronger mega isnt (beyond) its just stronger.

[Shadowz1797]

I'm using the phrasing that vasharanpaladin used. Saying that Post ultimate level power belongs locked away beyond the Gm screen where it only happens due to GM fiat.

Let's then call the phrase off, as it's simply not true either way.

[Rater202]

Arnt those just the same megas, with more xp spent? A stronger mega isnt (beyond) its just stronger.

The same Mega with More XP spent would still be utterly identical.

Blast Mode and Crimson Mode are Mode changes, which results in a massive power boost and/or the gaining of entirely new abilities. Officially they're still Mega Level, but it's still a form with a level of Power beyond the base Mega form of the species.

[Rakaydos]

The same Mega with More XP spent would still be utterly identical.Then what does XP do for digimon, in your view?


Blast Mode and Crimson Mode are Mode changes, which results in a massive power boost and/or the gaining of entirely new abilities. Officially they're still Mega Level, but it's still a form with a level of Power beyond the base Mega form of the species.

Mode change, to me, sounds like trading in talents for other talents. however, if you're trading in "can maintain this form for longer" for "moar powa" it may resemble a straight power boost.

[Rater202]

Then what does XP do for digimon, in your view? The same Mega with more XP would be the same form with more Extwensions, except Extensions are consisntant across forms.




Mode change, to me, sounds like trading in talents for other talents. however, if you're trading in "can maintain this form for longer" for "moar powa" it may resemble a straight power boost.

Well, good for you, but that's not what it is. Mode Change was introduced in 02. It's not a trade, it's power boost and may or may not grant additional capabilities-Beelzemon Blast Mode is stronger than Beelzemon, and Can fly, and gains a new attack.

[Blackhawk748]

For gods sake just give it the Leadership treatment. Leadership is in the PHB but all of the relevant info for it is in the DMG, therefore it requires DM approval. There Done. Now can we please get some mechanics?

Edit: Also a Mega with more XP can very well have more power as it has probably gone up a Rank, as i had Ultimate as simply 15+

[vasharanpaladin]

And I really don't see how "This thing that happened in every continuity of the franchise at least once" can possibly be optional.

Question: Are we now referring to "beyond Ultimate" in general here, or the Supreme rank in specific? Because, by your own logic, the latter only occurred in a single medium, and the rest only became "stronger Ultimate" Digimon.

If your argument is that Susano'omon and Armagemon can only ever be Ultimate-rank Digimon, then it follows that as the Supreme rank appears in exactly one continuity it's a fluke and thus fodder for the DM chapter.

And, by the way?

Imperialdramon Dragon Mode has a travel configuration that Fighter Mode lacks. Fighter Mode has ranged attacks that Paladin Mode lacks. Beelzebumon has a single high-power shot in Blast Mode, compared to more versatile twin Berenjena in standard configuration. Dukemon Crimson Mode sacrifices defensive power for mobility.

Burst Mode is a straight power boost, but carries the risk (demonstrated by ShineGreymon) of screwing up and going into the more dangerous Ruin Mode instead.

Ulforce V-dramon Future Mode is a straight power boost with no strings attached, as are Chronomon Destruction and Holy Modes.

The difference between the three: Mode Change is reconfiguration, Burst Mode is overclocking, and Digivolution changes the level properly.

[Rakaydos]

The difference between the three: Mode Change is reconfiguration, Burst Mode is overclocking, and Digivolution changes the level properly.

I'll buy that. Burst mode is still a straight power boost, but one that comes with a "save vs DM takes your sheet", so either way it's still an issue... but it's better than claiming them all as straight levelups past mega.

Is there another way we can represent overclocking? willpower drain so you know when Ruin mode is approaching?

[Rater202]

Question: Are we now referring to "beyond Ultimate" in general here, or the Supreme rank in specific? Because, by your own logic, the latter only occurred in a single medium, and the rest only became "stronger Ultimate" Digimon. I belive you proposed "Supreme" as a term for all beyond Ultimate Powers. In that case, it's both, and regardless, you proposed having all beyond Ultimate Powers in the GMs only Chapter. As "Beyond Ultimate" happens in every season, save for Xros Wars which lacked levels, lcoking it away makes no sense.


Imperialdramon Dragon Mode has a travel configuration that Fighter Mode lacks. Fighter Mode has ranged attacks that Paladin Mode lacks. Beelzebumon has a single high-power shot in Blast Mode, compared to more versatile twin Berenjena in standard configuration. Dukemon Crimson Mode sacrifices defensive power for mobility.
Many Citations needed. Paladin Mode Only doesn't have it's ranged attacks in the Vidogames-uit still has the atachments needed for it's attacks, it's just the sword attack is stronger. Provide Proof that Fightermode lacks base Imperialdramon's travel capabilities,. as it doens't seem any slower and there was once episode where Ken and Davis were called into Imperialdramons travel pocket dimension while in fighter mode, and even f it did lose those capabilities, a ten times increase in raw power over the base ultimate form is more than enough to justify it being on a lvele above base Ultimate

No please provide proof that Gallantmon Crimson Mode, who gains Red Digizoid Armor(The hardest alloy of Chrome Digizoid) loses defensive powers or that it only gains more manuverability.

Beelzemon Blast mode does not lose his Duoble IMpact atack, he just didn't use it becuase Corana Blaster is more powerful

Burst Mode is a straight power boost, but carries the risk (demonstrated by ShineGreymon) of screwing up and going into the more dangerous Ruin Mode instead. It's also explicitly, said right in the show, a level above ultimate.


The difference between the three: Mode Change is reconfiguration, Burst Mode is overclocking, and Digivolution changes the level properly.
All of which result in massive power boosts. I do apreciate you agreeing that they sre not the same thing, ths eliminating the need to conflate them all into the same thing and rolling them up into the none canon "Supreme" level instead of putting them under the canon friendly "post ultimate" or PU power forms umbrella.

I'd also like to note that there are cases of Ultimates digivolving into stronger Ultimates.

Known Examples are Machinedramon into Chaosdramon, and BlackWarGreymon into Omnimon Zwart, MetalGarurumon into ZeedGarurumon, and sometimes Wargreymon into VictoryGreymon.

If we put Ranks at maxing out at 25, and we put Mode Change and Digivolving into a stronger Mega at 20 and Burst Mode and true Super Ultimate digimon at 25, all under the PU or Post Ultimate banner, then I don't see whats happening.

Just include some text that says these are powerful forms and that they shouldn't be permitted unless everybody at the table is okay with it(as opposed to only if GM says so, because that can lead to GM entitlement just as much as leaving them in the players section with no warning would encourage player entitlement.

[vasharanpaladin]

...Screw it, I'm just going to come out and say it.

The ONLY standard is Digivolution.

Nothing else matters. Nothing else is exactly the same across the franchise.

We're already taking a bold step, having decided upon a unified system. You understand what that means, yes? That means that, once again, canon takes a backseat. Digivolution is the same across the franchise. Jogress is the same across the franchise. Everything else appears once and then drops by the wayside, or else it's altered subtly each time it appears.

This project will be complex enough without anyone insisting that every little detail must exactly match "canon," especially when that "canon" changes depending on the medium! So. That being said. Digivolution works identically in every medium, or near enough that it doesn't matter. Therefore, it will work that way here.

Mode Change, Biomerge, Burst Mode... they each appear in exactly one medium. They can and will be ignored or altered as required to fit our primary system. If Rater has his way, the same applies to Super Ultimate/Supreme/Complete BS Digimon, who according to him only appear in the V-Tamer manga. Note that I have provided ample opportunity for this rank of Digivolution to have existed in other media, and been shot down.

Thus, the ultimatum: If you want this project to succeed, let go of any thoughts of "canon" beyond the Digimon World games. Otherwise this project will crash and burn as it has before.

[Rater202]

Mode change apears in two diferant Anime seasons and Video games, including Digimon World Games, and the V-Tamer Manga.

Biomerge only apears once, but as we have an entire Archetype based on that season, we have to include it.

Same with Burst Mode, except Bust Mode also apears in a the Digimon Next Manga and several Video Games.

If we drop everything, then we have one archetype and people will wonder why we only play with straight up, normal, season one esgue mechanics instead of the cool stuff from the season/manga they like

It has to appeal to as many Digi-fans as possible.

And canon does not have to laid aside. We make the mechanics. we can make the mechanics fit the canon.

we don't have deadlines. we don't have budget constraints. We can pull it off. easy.

rookie Base form-champion template-ultimate template-mega template-one of four post mega templates.

Once we have a framework for how Digivolving works, we can pull it off easy.

[Rakaydos]

Ichigo Hybrid digivolves to Zangetsu! Zangetsu matrix digivolves to Tetsa Zangetsu!

[Almarck]

Rater, I think before we can do all of those mechanics, we need to figure out and master what our current "baseline" is. We're getting ahead of ourselves discussing all of these power change mechanics and tiers above Mega, because man, then things get confusing.

Yes, we're starting at a Season 1, which is a good thing to work for since it was the simplest with no frilled and side mechanics attached. We'll worry about every other mechanic and how to depict it later. When it really comes down to it, everything in the franchise can be defined as "like digivolution, but..."

Ergo, our first goal should be determining and figuring out how to represent base digivolution. Once that is done, we can discuss about how to explain everything else.

[Blackhawk748]

Baby/In-Training=1
Child/Rookie=2-5
Adult/Champion=6-10
Perfect/Ultimate=11-15
Ultimate/Mega=16-20

Seriously, here it is. Does everyone forget that i have a functioning model right now?

Edit: Why does Digivolution have to be more complicated than "Lasts for one Scene, go up to rank X", Honestly this is based off of a very freeform system for this very reason

[Rater202]

Ichigo Hybrid digivolves to Zangetsu! Zangetsu matrix digivolves to Tensa Zangetsu!

Okay, Matrix Digivolution was from a diferant season than either kind of Hybrid digivolving, but that is a funny mental image.

I kinda want to see what a Digimon made with data from files of Bleach Manga scans would end up as...

Anybody wanna fakemon it?And that puts the various methods of reaching post mega.ultimate at... lets say 25+

[Rakaydos]

Okay, Matrix Digivolution was from a diferant season than either kind of Hybrid digivolving, but that is a funny mental image.

I kinda want to see what a Digimon made with data from files of Bleach Manga scans would end up as...

Anybody wanna fakemon it?

I figured the basic zanpacto was baby/rookie, and Shikai was Adult. What was the hybrid equivilant to Matrix-digivolving to perfect? because that's Bankai.
Vizard Masks are a form of burst mode overclocking at Adult or Perfect level, but other than ichigo, they always get worfed.

Mega is reserved for Final Zangetsu, Butterfly Azien, and Ichigos second stage hollow form.

[vasharanpaladin]

And canon does not have to laid aside. We make the mechanics. we can make the mechanics fit the canon.


...

This. This is dead. Effing. WRONG.

ANY time you take a non-collaborative medium and translate it to a collaborative one, mechanics take precedence. You do not shape mechanics to fit canon. You prune canon to suit mechanics.

"We have no deadline" is not an excuse. "We have no budget constraints" is not an excuse.

We want a unified, collaborative medium made out of a fragmented non-collaborative one. Something is going to be lost in that translation... and with Digimon World still going strong, I can say with confidence that kowtowing to "canon" at every opportunity is exactly what should be discarded.

[Rater202]

I figured the basic zanpacto was baby/rookie, and Shikai was Adult. What was the hybrid equivilant to Matrix-digivolving to perfect? because that's Bankai.
Vizard Masks are a form of burst mode overclocking at Adult or Perfect level, but other than ichigo, they always get worfed.

Mega is reserved for Final Zangetsu, Butterfly Azien, and Ichigos second stage hollow form.

Well, with actual Hybrid Digimon, there was no "Perfect" level, but the beast Spirit form was equivalent to it in power. Problem is, you went straight from human to Beast.

And I'd put most of the Vandenreich, the most of the Royal Guard, and post guard training Ichigo Rukia and Renji in the Ultimate Level and Yhwach, The leader of the royal guard, and post guard training Ichigo in the Super Ultimate Level.

So, back on topic, we maybe need a more detailed thingy for how Digivolving works beyond how much boost each form can have?

And we need to codify terms.We are collaborating to make a Digimon game. Not a Digimon World game.

And a lot of the stuff you want us to drop does in fact appear in the Digimon World series, so that's moot point.

We want the game to appeal to all Digifans, yes? Then we can't focus one one part of the franchise, and we can make the mechanics fit the canon so that we don't alienate any fans who might be interested but get turned off when they see they can't do the thing they like about the franchise.

so, instead of collaborating on what we need to drop, we need to collaborate on making mechanics that mean we don't have to drop anything.

Besides, once the Digivolving mechanic is fully developed, making the everything else will be easy.

[Shadowz1797]

While we don't have a deadline, let's keep in mind projects lose steam, as do their collaborators. We're not to rush anything but we're also not going to sit around debating for months.

I think as this is going to be a game, we need to have mechanics as the precedence, that's just the way it is.

Blackhawk I see it haha, I think you should be able to sustain it for more than a scene in some cases, and should have an extra mechanic to cancel it out. I also think there should be some difference other than just a straight power boost, otherwise we again run into the "what's the point of ever doing anything other than just going mega form?"

[Blackhawk748]

So, back on topic, we maybe need a more detailed thingy for how Digivolving works beyond how much boost each form can have?

Its very simple, and while i cant find my original post, ill just repost it hear. Its works like it does in M&M, the only difference is that the form you in caps your max bonus. So you could be rank 20, but if your in Child form you only have a max of 5. Now i will also use M&M's rules for adjusting your values, you can lower 1 traits max to increase another's max.

EX. Renamon starts character creation at Rank 5 (cuz the DM said so) so she decides to lower her Resistance save by 2, to 3, and then raise her Attack by 2, to 7. So it looks like this:

To Hit=+5
Defense=+5
Attack=+7
Resistance=+3

From then on thats how her Child Form is, when she Digivolves she can change the values again, but only for that form.

[Rater202]

Since we decide the mechanics, we don't have to drop canon elements for mechanics. Once we have the base Digivolution Mechanics completed, we can make the everything else.

It should be easy.

Dropping something easy and completely discarding all but one aspect of the canon for the sake of simplification strikes me as being rather lazy, no offence intended.

Besides, it's best that we work disagreements out now instead of letting them fester and then kill the project later.There should be extensions that increase stats in base form and r in other specific forms only, and strong forms should have a few points you can assign to raise stats higher, btut otherwise I like that mechanic.

[Blackhawk748]

Blackhawk I see it haha, I think you should be able to sustain it for more than a scene in some cases, and should have an extra mechanic to cancel it out. I also think there should be some difference other than just a straight power boost, otherwise we again run into the "what's the point of ever doing anything other than just going mega form?"

Oh obviously, thats just straight bare bones. As for the multiple scenes thing, that could easily be a talent. As for the negative i was thinking you get less XP if you go to a form higher than what your fighting. I believe someone said that upthread.

[Rater202]

Oh obviously, thats just straight bare bones. As for the multiple scenes thing, that could easily be a talent. As for the negative i was thinking you get less XP if you go to a form higher than what your fighting. I believe someone said that upthread.

I suggested that, twice.

Also, are you a ninja?

[Blackhawk748]

I suggested that, twice.

Also, are you a ninja?

AH, i knew someone did

And no, Im a Rogue :smallcool:

[Rakaydos]

I'm not a fan of inflated powerlevels. The guard training may have put the various shinigami at the top of perfect, but i wouldnt push them into mega just to be mega.
I think that's part of the problem with the digimon discussion. Everything for you seems to be a power boost, and you wont be satisfied until your PL25 Burst mode'd super-mega has eaten a final boss.

Standard Digivolution is standard.
-Adult form lasts for a scene, unless you have a talent to extend it. this talent is usually available once you've achieved perffect the first time.
-Perfect has, in addition to the above, damage feedback to the Child, unless you have a talent that reduces it.
-Mega requires, in addition to the above, a plot token.

[Rater202]

I've mentioned making all methods of reaching PU power mutually exclusive, said nothing about wanting an over powered PC to eat a final boss,and I mentioned power boosts as power boosts, nothing else.

Please don't straw man my argument.

And no plot tokens for Mega. Requiring a plot token for that is just an Excuse for a GM to deny it too you ifyou reach a point where you should logically get it but they aren't ready for you to have it.

Gms denying stuff to players must always have a valid reason. Plot tokens and locking stuff behind a GM screen and making stuff GM fiat just encourages bad GMs to forgo coming up with a valid reason.

[Rakaydos]

I've mentioned making all methods of reaching PU power mutually exclusive, said nothing about wanting an over powered PC to eat a final boss,and I mentioned power boosts as power boosts, nothing else.

Please don't straw man my argument.

And no plot tokens for Mega. Requiring a plot token for that is just an Excuse for a GM to deny it too you ifyou reach a point where you should logically get it but they aren't ready for you to have it.

Gms denying stuff to players must always have a valid reason. Plot tokens and locking stuff behind a GM screen and making stuff GM fiat just encourages bad GMs to forgo coming up with a valid reason.

It seems you have problems with GMs denying you stuff. I wonder why?

[Oazard]

Standard Digivolution is standard.
-Adult form lasts for a scene, unless you have a talent to extend it. this talent is usually available once you've achieved perffect the first time.
-Perfect has, in addition to the above, damage feedback to the Child, unless you have a talent that reduces it.
-Mega requires, in addition to the above, a plot token.

Do we really need all those drawback for Perfect and Mega level? If you use a power level too high, you already gain less XP and when you reach these levels, you are generally fighting enemies more powerful than you* (and they don't have these additional drawbacks).

*To compensate for Action economy of a Group Vs. One Monster and all the bonus granted to your Digimon by your Child.

[vasharanpaladin]

Do we really need all those drawback for Perfect and Mega level? If you use a power level too high, you already gain less XP and when you reach these levels, you are generally fighting enemies more powerful than you* (and they don't have these additional drawbacks).

*To compensate for Action economy of a Group Vs. One Monster and all the bonus granted to your Digimon by your Child.

It was requested early on that we find a way to encourage players to not go full-power at all times. XP penalties were not agreed upon, only suggested and then immediately assumed by the person who suggested them.

[Almarck]

I think feedback damage should only apply to whatever is the highest form a digimon can take. Growing past a lesser form allows that form to be taken easily thus taking no feedback damage and getting the choice of talents to go last longer and do more that your highest form is not capable of.

[Rater202]

It seems you have problems with GMs denying you stuff. I wonder why?

I don't have problems with GMs denying stuff to me.

I have prblems with GMs denying stuff to anyone for no valid, logical reason.

If a Player askes the GM if they can do something with their character, as happens in all RPGs, the GM must decide if it works or not.

If the answer is not, they have to havea valid reason.

If they deny it becuase they think it's broken, they have to say why it's broken and listen to counter arguments about why it's not broken.

Putting things designed for player use in the GM chapter, or by declaring that you need a plot coupon to rach X, or any other kind of "Canomically this thing we have mechanics for can only be used by GM fiat" rule directly in the book just encourages GMs to ban things without coming up with a valid reason to do so.

For Example, if we include Burst Mode, and a hypothetical Agent reaches rank 25+ and want to learn Burst Mode, and the GM denies them the option to do this to do this, they're going to ask why, and if the GM's only response is "Well, the book says that, despite you meeting all the other prerequisites, it's only available by GM fiat, so no you can't take that extension" te guy is going to feel cheated.

The only time "GM Fiat" is an acceptable excuse for denying something to the player is if there's some storyline reason for doing it.

"You can't take the Agent Path because digisoul hasn't been discovered in my setting" or "You can't take Guilmon as a partner because we're in the tamers verse, so there's only the one Guilmon"
It was requested early on that we find a way to encourage players to not go full-power at all times. XP penalties were not agreed upon, only suggested and then immediately assumed by the person who suggested them.
I did no such thing.

I suggested it because all digivolution forms have a duration of "As long as the plot days the last" and because XP penalties makes more sense that arbitrary time limits.

Arbitrary Time Limits only make sense with Golden Armor Digimon, and only because Magnamon was specifically called out in canon has having a limited duration as a result of burning through his energy at a rapid rate.

Once more, I feel the need to state that I dislike how hostie you're coming across as.

[Oazard]

It was requested early on that we find a way to encourage players to not go full-power at all times. XP penalties were not agreed upon, only suggested and then immediately assumed by the person who suggested them.

Okay. I think there was also a suggestion that higher level drained more stamina/energy from the Child/Digimon, which is the solution I prefer*. "If we go full-power now, I hope we don't have anything else on us today!"

*And you could choose to use more stamina/energy than you have to maintain for a little longer your Digimon level, but it degenerates to a lower level after. :smallamused:

[Shadowz1797]

I don't think less xp is necessarily the way, because if you think about it, the tamers/digimon have fought the same digimon and therefore have had the same experience, why change that based on how well they did so?

I agree that a stamina option is the better route, maybe have it as a carryover thing necessary to digivolve.

For Example:
Tamer Shadowz and his Guilmon have 15 (no idea so--->) Digivolve Stamina, and lets say thresholds are (in english, still need to familiarize myself with the sub terms):
Champion-6 (-2)
Ultimate-14 (-5)
Mega-20 (-7)

Guilmon had an encounter the day before and digivolved to Growlmon, thus applying a temporary (1d3 days) -2 decrease to their stamina level, making it a 13. Therefore in an encounter that were to occur before the -2 to go away, guilmon would not be able to digivolve to Wargrowlmon. With higher stamina penalties the higher it goes, the more of an incentive there is to win the battle with lower digivolution levels, the more sustainable your future digivolution options will be.

Talents could be available to lesson this stamina decrease (sounds like a support talent!) and the digivolve stamina could be a stat that increases incrementally each level.

[Rater202]

That works too.


I only suggested reduced XP for fighting a Mon that was a lower level(and therefore likely to be weaker) because it made more sense than arbitrary time limits.

I'm not married to the concept.

Still Think Golden Armor Digivolution is the only form a Time Limit makes sense for, for aforementioned reasons.

[Rakaydos]

"Until end of scene" basically is a duration of Plot, anyway, if you include travel montauges as a single scene. A talent of "can stay in this form indefintely" and optional drawbacks of "can be knocked out of form" or "burns through power quickly" are all we really need.

[Shadowz1797]

Any comments/thoughts/etc.?

[Blackhawk748]

Any comments/thoughts/etc.?

Im all for "Scene" as the duration. Also ive been Stream-of-Conciousnessing rules while at work (dont worry i can safely zone out at work) so im gonna write those down and get them in to some semblance of order, then ill post them.

[Rakaydos]

I look forward to seeing what you, the people actually doing the hard work, have for us nitpickers. :p

[Blackhawk748]

Ok this is all ive got thats complete enough to post (still hashing out some other stuff)

There are 10 size categories 1-10 which represent the rough size of your Child and their Digimon.
Size 1- 1ft tall or less (this is usually for Baby Digimon only)
Size 2-1ft to 3ft (this is for Child Digimon usually)
Size 3-3ft-6ft (this is average human height ranges)
Size 4-
Size 5-
Size 6-
Size 7-
Size 8-
Size 9-
Size 10- 100ft+ (this is for only the biggest Digimon, and Buildings)

Now Size isnt only for determing if you can fir through that door, it also gives you various benefits, and penalties. For every Size larger than you target you get a -1 on To Hit rolls, however for every 2 Sizes larger than your target you gain +1 additional damage. Also for every Size smaller than your target you gain a +1 on To Hit rolls.

Thats what ive got so far, im also working on how many points they should get for powers (still using M&M for that) and Movement speeds.

[Rakaydos]

Would Renamon be big enough to get Size 4? Terriermon small enough for Size 1?

[Almarck]

Are digimon of the same type able to have different size categories?

Mostly, I'm asking this because of the absolutely huge in comparisone digimon in Savers. I mean, seriously, I think near the end of it, every digimon except Lilymon was a Gundam. Even the rookies or child state digimon were pretty big... Biyo/Piyomon in particular in that series probably would have been bigger than Season 1 Sora. Also, that and a certain Great Demon Lord was able to grow in size without mode changing.

I also think there were also instances of digimon being different sizes while being of the same type, species, and mode. Sometimes they were even displayed side by side if I recall correctly.

[Rater202]

The huge ass Agumon and Godzilla sized Greymon from the Digimon Adventure theatrical short/first segment of the movie, were, at least in the original japanese, the same species and mode as regular agumon and greymon.

Gallantmon from Tamers and his Cameo in Frontier were roughly human sized, but the Gallantmon in Savers was giant sized.

Make unusual size for species an extension that applies in child and post child forms.

[Blackhawk748]

Would Renamon be big enough to get Size 4? Terriermon small enough for Size 1?

Probably? I was trying to make sure that Size didnt have a huge mechanical impact, but i felt that it had to have one.

Also ya, Digimon of the same species have been shown at varying sizes (Godzilla Greymon as Rater said)

Honestly anything i have after is a recommendation, Size 1 for Baby etc, as Marineangemon, a flippin Ultimate/Mega would be Size 1, so you could totally have an Adult/Champion be Size 10. Is that a good idea? Probably not, as you would have problems Digivolving in most buildings.

Note that the actual measurements i have after are just guess-timates right now, they can be messed with.

[Blackhawk748]

STATUS UPDATE
1. Im not dead (just in case you were concerned lol)
2. Still working on stuff (life got in the way, but i should be back to 40 hour work weeks soon)
3. I do have some stuff you guys can discuss.

Skills
I believe we should use a d6 skill system similar to PTU (where 3d6 is average) the difference is i think we should use a "success" based system ie 4,5, and 6 are successes. Thoughts on this are appreciated.

Digimon Families
I know we touched on this earlier but im bringing it up again because i had an idea for the basic system of it. Each family would give a skill bonus (+1d6) and a +1 bonus to either To Hit, Defense, Damage, or Resistance. So ya real basic.

So thats what ive got for discussion right now, hopefully ill have something more comprehensive on friday (stupid taxes taking all my free time :smalltongue:)

[Shadowz1797]

I'm not dead either, gonna wait on stuff from blackhawk as combat seems to be the real system we need in place before making more progress.

[Blackhawk748]

Alrighty then, you've all been waiting for it, so here it is: Combat

There are 4 Attributes in Digimon RPG, To Hit, Defense, Attack, and Toughness. These are determined by Rank, as they all increase by 1 when you increase in Rank. When a Digimon attains a new level they may reallocate their points, subtracting points from one Attribute and putting them in another, this allows a Digimon to go over the normal cap limit of their Rank.

Ranks
Baby:1
Child:2-5
Adult:6-10
Perfect:11-15
Ultimate:16-20

Now Digimon are more than just smacking each other around, most have great powers. As such a Digimon gains Data Points equal to 5 x their rank, with these points they buy Powers, but they cannot have more ranks in a power than they have Ranks. For instance Aguman (Rank 4) may not have more than 4 ranks in any particular power, but he has 20 Data Points with which to but powers, so he has quite a few options.

Combat in Digimon is very simple. You roll a single d20 and add your To Hit value, then, if you beat your opponents defense score (which is 10 + their Defense Value) you hit them, doing damage. Damage varies with what you do, if you use a damaging power its Damage is equal to its ranks, if you use a basic attack, its damage is equal to 1/2 the Digimons Attack Attribute. After damage has been determined, the defender rolls a Resistance Roll, which is a D20 + their Toughness Attribute, the save DC is 10 + Damage. If they succeed, they take no damage, if they fail several things can happen.

If they fail by 1-4 they only get a Bruised Level, which makes them take a -1 on subsequent Resistance Checks. (this can stack multiple times)
If they fail by 5-9 they get a Bruised Level as well as Dazed for one round.
If they fail by 10-14 they get a Bruised and are Staggered for the rest of the Scene.
If they fail by 15+ they are unconscious.

Note that this is simply a list of M&M Powers i feel would fit, there are all 2nd ED unless otherwise stated
Additional Limbs
Blast
Burrowing
Cold Control
Confuse
Corrosion
Darkness Control
Dazzle
Deflect
Disintegration
Drain (this is a maybe)
Duplication (also maybe)
Electrical Control
(Element) Control
Elongation
Environmental Control
Fatigue
Flight
Force Field
Healing
Hellfire Control
Illusion
Immovable
Insubstantial
Kinetic Control
Leaping
Light Control
Magnetic Control
Mental Blast
Nauseate
Nullify (probably NPC only)
Obscure
Paralyze
Plant Control
Plasma Control
Regeneration (3rd ED)
Shield
Snare
Sonic Control
Spatial Control
Speed
Spinning
Strike
Stun
Summon (minion) (maybe)
Super Movement
Super Senses
Swimming Telekenisis

Thats pretty much it, wonderfully straightforward, simple and fast paced. Also its entirely possible i've forgotten something so please point that out.

[Shadowz1797]

I love it. Exactly what I imagined. Any other thoughts before we pursue skill trees?

[Rakaydos]

I love it. Exactly what I imagined. Any other thoughts before we pursue skill trees?

Why does the skill system and combat system use different dice mechanics?

[Blackhawk748]

Why does the skill system and combat system use different dice mechanics?

Because i prefer a success based system to a D20 one? Really its just preference but i've found that a success based system works better than "hit the DC" system.

My recommendation up thread was just that, a recommendation. Im open to discussing alternate skill systems

[Rakaydos]

Because i prefer a success based system to a D20 one? Really its just preference but i've found that a success based system works better than "hit the DC" system.

My recommendation up thread was just that, a recommendation. Im open to discussing alternate skill systems

So whats the problem with a success based combat system?

[Blackhawk748]

So whats the problem with a success based combat system?

Its pretty swingy, one good roll and you have an absolute ton of damage (this has ahppened a few to many times for my tastes) in skills this isnt as big of a deal, if you needed 5 successes but got 20, you just succeeded more epically, if that happens in combat you just turned a boss battle into a joke.

Obviously this is just preference, both skill systems have perfectly good arguments for and against them, it comes down to preference mostly.

[Rakaydos]

Its pretty swingy, one good roll and you have an absolute ton of damage (this has ahppened a few to many times for my tastes) in skills this isnt as big of a deal, if you needed 5 successes but got 20, you just succeeded more epically, if that happens in combat you just turned a boss battle into a joke.

Obviously this is just preference, both skill systems have perfectly good arguments for and against them, it comes down to preference mostly.

Sounds like you're used to large, low-odds dice pools like WoD.
Small, higher odds dice pools are much less swingy.

In Ironclaw, the target number is 4, and how good you are at an aspect decides what die you roll- D4, D6, D8, D10 or D12. You get 1 die from your stat, 1 die from your skill (if any) and 1 die from your carear/class (if applicble). If your race applies, get a die from that too.

So your big strong guy who doesnt know how to use a sword has a d12, and thus a 3/4 chance of getting... 1 success. Where as a smaller guy who is not only traine but makes his living off the sword might have a dice pool of 3d6- which is a 1/8 chance of three successes. And with a super boss who is rolling 4d12... he still caps out at 4 successes.


If your digimon;s combat skill is a number from 1-5, say, roll 3d6. Each die under you stat is a success. Each success is a -x to the Toughness save.

[Blackhawk748]

Sounds like you're used to large, low-odds dice pools like WoD.
Small, higher odds dice pools are much less swingy.

In Ironclaw, the target number is 4, and how good you are at an aspect decides what die you roll- D4, D6, D8, D10 or D12. You get 1 die from your stat, 1 die from your skill (if any) and 1 die from your carear/class (if applicble). If your race applies, get a die from that too.

So your big strong guy who doesnt know how to use a sword has a d12, and thus a 3/4 chance of getting... 1 success. Where as a smaller guy who is not only traine but makes his living off the sword might have a dice pool of 3d6- which is a 1/8 chance of three successes. And with a super boss who is rolling 4d12... he still caps out at 4 successes.


If your digimon;s combat skill is a number from 1-5, say, roll 3d6. Each die under you stat is a success. Each success is a -x to the Toughness save.

Huh interesting, would be great for Combat Maneuvers (ie Bull Rush, Trip etc) as i hadnt figured out how to do them yet.

[Baxter Konrad]

Maybe someone mentioned this already, but have you looked at BESM at all? It's been ages since I played so I'm hazy on the details, but it was a pretty simple d6 based system whereby your odds of success went down as potential payoff went up.

So, for example, in a typical BESM game the magical schoolgirl might decide she's casting a straightforward lightning bolt spell. The magical girl needs to roll 2d6 and get equal or less than her casting stat.

Next, the 80ft tall Robo-Banana (and yes, this IS a typical party in most BESM games I've seen) then decides that he's going to unleash the Wave Motion Cannon. He rolls 2d6 as before, but because aiming a Wave Motion Gun at a target in such a way that you don't accidentally blow up the Moon is a bit tricky, he gets a +10 modifier to his roll, meaning that unless he rolls snake eyes we're going to have crescent moons from now on.

A similar sort of mechanic, perhaps combined with a "variety bonus" to discourage endless spamming of the biggest moves, might be a nice way to streamline things down somewhat. After all, do the specific differences between a "Giga Bolt" and "Ultra Bolt" attack really matter? Probably not - what matters is that the Digimon has access to a powerful melee attack that's easy to do; an average difficulty, average damage aoe attack, and a hitscan ability that almost always lands and has really good range, but only deals light damage.

Also, I am kind of biased toward Renamon, so I'm not going to volunteer ideas on specific abilities, otherwise I'd just want her to be the best at everything. :smallbiggrin:

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, ive been thinking about what Rakaydos said and while i find that type of system interesting, i dont feel quite familiar enough with it to use it here. My preference for D20 in the combat system is mainly one of familiarity, as i feel confident enough to screw around with it.

That being said, im more than willing to change systems if D20 proves unworkable, and i believe that Ironclaw would probably be our next best bet (as WoD style d10 is to swingy)

[Almarck]

Which edition of WoD are we taking about? Classic? New 1? or New 2? They share similarities but some changes do make things somewhat different. Granted, I don't think either of those systems can handle Digimon that well

[Blackhawk748]

Which edition of WoD are we taking about? Classic? New 1? or New 2? They share similarities but some changes do make things somewhat different. Granted, I don't think either of those systems can handle Digimon that well

I play nWoD, and have very little experience with the others, so my comments are flavored by that.

[Rakaydos]

Which edition of WoD are we taking about? Classic? New 1? or New 2? They share similarities but some changes do make things somewhat different. Granted, I don't think either of those systems can handle Digimon that well

I've only played Exalted, but the issue with white wolf is the dice being weighted toward failure on each dice, which leads to large dice pools and thus swingy "critical hits," something that i believe is present in all the white wolf systems.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so if anyone has no objections i recommend that we move on to making Archetypes.

[Rakaydos]

Well the one series I know is Tamers, where Cardcaptor/DigiModify is a thing.

(though ow that I use that thought, the more I think Hybrid/biohybrid should be it's own thing that can be stacked with other architypes, because Cardcaptor Sakura could totally be Hybrid/Digimodify, just as bleach is totally hybrid base.)

First thought, is that the early shiw focuses on basic stat boosts- these should be relatively available at low level. Unique cards (digimon digimodifys) should be buildiable like digimon powers out of the tamers XP.
...actually, screw it. the tamer is effectively a support digimon in tamers.

[Blackhawk748]

Well the one series I know is Tamers, where Cardcaptor/DigiModify is a thing.

(though ow that I use that thought, the more I think Hybrid/biohybrid should be it's own thing that can be stacked with other architypes, because Cardcaptor Sakura could totally be Hybrid/Digimodify, just as bleach is totally hybrid base.)

First thought, is that the early shiw focuses on basic stat boosts- these should be relatively available at low level. Unique cards (digimon digimodifys) should be buildiable like digimon powers out of the tamers XP.
...actually, screw it. the tamer is effectively a support digimon in tamers.

Pretty much, i figured that most of their talents would be give a Digimon X power for X rounds, usually only being able to use the attack once, and the movement abilities generally last for a few rounds.

[Rater202]

Reminder for Archetypes:

Chosen: Destined to get a Digimon. Progression paths are crest bearer, who have fastest progression through levels and are equipped with a basic Digivice and a crest power(w/ or wo tag and crest to focus it) or Digimental bearer who have an "ancient" digimon capable of armor digivolution-partner is equipped with D3 and D-Terminal, and can acquire up to three Digimentals to grant partner more versatility.

Seeker: The human sought out a Digimon. Progressions are Tamer, who has a D-Arc and modify cards, and Agent, who has a DATS Digivice and access to Digisoul(not sure how this works, other than access to Burst Mode as a PU form)

Unnamed becoming Digimon Archetype:Don't have Digimon, become Digimon. Use a slightly modified version of evolution mechanic. progressions are spirit wielder, who has D-tector and Spirits, and Bio-Hybrid who has been modified into a true Human-Digimon Hybrid.

I suggest working on the Tamer Progression of the Seeker Archetype first, simply because, well, it sounds like it'll be easiest and it's already being discussed.

The Chosen Archetype should probably go on the back burner, because more stuff we could use for it'll probably come up in Tri.

[Blackhawk748]

Reminder for Archetypes:

Chosen: Destined to get a Digimon. Progression paths are crest bearer, who have fastest progression through levels and are equipped with a basic Digivice and a crest power(w/ or wo tag and crest to focus it) or Digimental bearer who have an "ancient" digimon capable of armor digivolution-partner is equipped with D3 and D-Terminal, and can acquire up to three Digimentals to grant partner more versatility.

Seeker: The human sought out a Digimon. Progressions are Tamer, who has a D-Arc and modify cards, and Agent, who has a DATS Digivice and access to Digisoul(not sure how this works, other than access to Burst Mode as a PU form)

Unnamed becoming Digimon Archetype:Don't have Digimon, become Digimon. Use a slightly modified version of evolution mechanic. progressions are spirit wielder, who has D-tector and Spirits, and Bio-Hybrid who has been modified into a true Human-Digimon Hybrid.

I suggest working on the Tamer Progression of the Seeker Archetype first, simply because, well, it sounds like it'll be easiest and it's already being discussed.

The Chosen Archetype should probably go on the back burner, because more stuff we could use for it'll probably come up in Tri.

This is probably a good plan, as i have some ideas for Tamers already

[Rater202]

Okay, so um, just a recapp for the Digivolution mechanic.

When a Mon reaches a certain rank, they have the otpion to learn an extension to assume the form of the next higest level, and assuming that form raises their base stats to the a certain point, and then they can rebuild stats to fit the form.

This is right, yes?

Tamer Specific Extensions are mostly Digimodify-slash X-Card, Y-happens. division-Speed/power/enrgy cards that tewmporarily increase one or more stats by small but noticeable amount, abillity cards that grant or augment abillities(Hyper Wings, or cards like WarGreymon's shild), and Digimon Cards, that allow the partner mon to use the attack of an other Digimon(Renamon using Snow Agumon's attack against Allomon or Leomon using LadyDevamon's)


But, if Tamer is Rank X, and Digimon is Rank high enough to take Ultimate level form but has yet to take extension,tamer can take Matrix Eolution Extension to combine with Digimon, becoming Ultimate Level digimon with access to certain human extensions and maybe a few mor actions. Taking MAtrix Evolution means that partner Digimon can not take the Ultimate Level form Extension.

Make sense?

[Blackhawk748]

Okay, so um, just a recapp for the Digivolution mechanic.

When a Mon reaches a certain rank, they have the otpion to learn an extension to assume the form of the next higest level, and assuming that form raises their base stats to the a certain point, and then they can rebuild stats to fit the form.

This is right, yes?

Tamer Specific Extensions are mostly Digimodify-slash X-Card, Y-happens. division-Speed/power/enrgy cards that tewmporarily increase one or more stats by small but noticeable amount, abillity cards that grant or augment abillities(Hyper Wings, or cards like WarGreymon's shild), and Digimon Cards, that allow the partner mon to use the attack of an other Digimon(Renamon using Snow Agumon's attack against Allomon or Leomon using LadyDevamon's)


But, if Tamer is Rank X, and Digimon is Rank high enough to take Ultimate level form but has yet to take extension,tamer can take Matrix Eolution Extension to combine with Digimon, becoming Ultimate Level digimon with access to certain human extensions and maybe a few mor actions. Taking MAtrix Evolution means that partner Digimon can not take the Ultimate Level form Extension.

Make sense?

The first parts are pretty much what im working off of right now, correct.

And last part seems like a fairly solid base to work off of.

[Almarck]

Here's a question should digimon be under the assumption they start as rookie or child stages?

I'm thinking rookie is maybe the standard and it cost nothing to get any digivolves before then or to maintain that form atleast in the digital world. All player tamer have enough ranks to get digimon to rookie of child but there is the possibility to start below the norm for if yiu want really low level games and such

[Rakaydos]

"Ultimate" is a confusing level.

Can we agree to use "Perfect" and 'Mega" as the two highest levels, rather than Ultmate being either one?

[Rater202]

I thought we had already determined we were using the Japanese "BabyI-BabyII-Child-Adult-Perfect-Ultimate-Super Ultimate" rankings?

As for default forms, I would assume that the default form would be Child for Chosen and Agent and Adult/H-Hybrid for as of yet unnamed human-to-mon archetype(balanced by only remaining in Digimon form for seen, just like Digivolutions)

I figure a "remain Adult/equivalent" extension would become available around the time Perfect forms become available, and Hybrid's might have an extension available from the beginning onward for a Child/Equivalent form they could stay in indefinitely.

[AuraTwilight]

It'd probably be wisest to use numerical stage namings and then explain in the rules the English and Japanese names for each phase, and that a GM is free to use either/or, or make up their own.

[Rakaydos]

I thought we had already determined we were using the Japanese "BabyI-BabyII-Child-Adult-Perfect-Ultimate-Super Ultimate" rankings?
.

I'm pretty sure we decided there wanst a super-ultimate level, even if we did use japaneese rankings. There's Optimizing (X-mode) and Overclocking (Burst mode) in Mega-equivilant digimon, but there isnt enough so-called super ultimates to have straight upgrades to any mega.

[Rater202]

There's no such thing as X-Mode, and we came to no consensus on Super Ultimate or Any Post ultimate Digimon.

I still say the rules for them should still stay in the Player Section, instead of line about it "Fiat it" in the GM section.

I again present the counter Arguments that we know exactly as much about the capabilities of Super Ultimate Digimon as we do about Digimon of the other levels, that lack of numbers is not a deterrent if the forms are "build yourself" and we have rules for making your own Digimon.

The PU-Post ultimate power level has multiple ways of being reached, and we should include all of them.Super ultimate-Strict Digivolution.

Ultimate to ultimate-Some Digimon are capable of Digivolving from one Mega into a Stronger Mega (Machinedramon to Chaosdramon, WarGreymon to VictoryGreymon, MetalGarurumon to ZeedGreymon, BlackWarGremon to Omegamon Zwart, WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon Jogress Digivolving into regular Omegamon, SlayerDramon and Breakdramon jogressing into Examon, etc)

Mode Change-Power Increase coupled with the development of New Abilities-about Ten Times as Powerful, if Imperialdramon Fighter Mode is the standard. Sometimes results in Change of Level

Burst Mode-Explicitly a Level Above Mega, achived by Overclocking Digisoul

HyperSpirit Evolution-Combining Five H-Spirits with 5 B-Spirits to achieve a form significantly more powerful that Fusion forms, which are Mega Equivalent

[JBPuffin]

So I have a passing interest in Digimon itself - certainly seemed fun, although for someone who grew up with its major competitor a bit intimidating - but the idea of a system that'd allow me to walk in and build monsters has my interest. For such reasons, I think I'll chime in every now again, maybe even get in on the testing. *JBPuffin joined your party*

Watching the tennis match that was the evolution debate threw me for a loop, and I think AuraTwilight's idea makes the game more noob-friendly. Number the stages, give them their labels in the appropriate section and move on. This also would allow infinite expansion, which since the creatures are literally data packets seems logical.

Rater's major gameplans seem sound - Child for the digimon-keepers, adult for the hybrids with the caveat of limited time, the archetype map. Y'all never did come to a consensus about the Super-Ultimates, but that may be for the best. Maybe there could just be one book with rules, for both DMs and players, while a DM-specific book has some stuff that players won't need in it? Personal vote on the S-Us: even if they don't exist straight-up normally, there are some cases they come in and both sides of the table need to understand what they mean, so put them in the rules but make them HARD to get. Like, epic level hard. They can be in the core book, but not easy access, for sure. And ya know, even if Optimizing isn't a thing, maybe it should be around anyway, just for the guys who want it. Between less than ten contributors, one person's word kind of matters, you know?

So, yeah. Gonna head over to the wiki, read things, try and understand better what's going on so i can help break up the five-page fights that may occur, and yeah. I'll toss my gmail in a PM to the man in charge. See ya around.

[Shadowz1797]

Just so we're being GAME productive, I'm gonna say we start going over talent trees. Let's transition into that discussion please

[Blackhawk748]

Just so we're being GAME productive, I'm gonna say we start going over talent trees. Let's transition into that discussion please

Seconding this, i think we should start by making a list of all the Skills available, as you buy those in a Archetype system.

[Shadowz1797]

So these would be those divided by the different seasons of anime/digivolution focus/etc. correct?

[Rater202]

I figured skills would be, basically, human extensions for "mundane" things that were not restricted by Archetype or Progression

[Shadowz1797]

Rater I believe you're correct I misread Blackhawk's post.

[Almarck]

Hm, question. Are weapons going to be treated as part of talents for digimon?

[Rater202]

Depends, do you mean things Like Leomon's Sword or Dukemon's Lance, or do you mean like in Digimon World 4.

In the first case, then it's part of the digimon and is just fluff.

In the second case...

...I'm not certain.

[vasharanpaladin]

Depends, do you mean things Like Leomon's Sword or Dukemon's Lance, or do you mean like in Digimon World 4.

In the first case, then it's part of the digimon and is just fluff.

In the second case...

...I'm not certain.

Digimon World 3 did it first, and in fact had Leomon's Shishiomaru and Dukemon's Gram as items you could buy and equip to your Digimon.

That being said, no other Digimon World title to my knowledge uses equip items, so even were we drawing primarily on Digimon World mechanics it'd fall under your first case.

[Rater202]

Everybody still Alive?

[Blackhawk748]

Everybody still Alive?

Yup, just had a lot of stuff IRL, still working on the skills in the background though. I may have a list by sunday.

[vasharanpaladin]

Hm, question. Are weapons going to be treated as part of talents for digimon?

To offer the alternative that blends in the aforementioned Digimon World titles, I would say they would be talents... for the tamer. Specifically, extensions of DigiModify.EXE that produce a copy of the weapon for your partner to use temporarily.

As an example, the writeup for your Leomon or Dukemon already accounts for having its sword or lance... but the "Leomon - Shishiomaru" or "Dukemon - Gram" card actually gives you the one from the TV series or backstory it's based on, with whatever power(s) is ascribed to it.

Mirroring Digimon World 3, then, basically puts weapons among the list of buffs that the Tamers archetype has access to.

[Rater202]

Would having that digimon's Card as an extension be a prerequisite to having it's item?

Like, if you Wanted Dukemon's Gram, which might presumably grant your partner a boost in basic attack damage and access to Royal Saber for the scene, would yuo need to have the Dukemon Card, which would, when swipped, give your partner a oneshot use of one of Dukemon's attacks?

Other, more "Generic" weaponry, like the weapon equis from Digimon World 4, would only have stat/damage mods.

I'm assuming that "Digimodify: Digivolution Activate!" won't actually be a Tamers Extension and will just be fluff for the normal Digivolution Mechanic.

[vasharanpaladin]

Would having that digimon's Card as an extension be a prerequisite to having it's item?

Like, if you Wanted Dukemon's Gram, which might presumably grant your partner a boost in basic attack damage and access to Royal Saber for the scene, would yuo need to have the Dukemon Card, which would, when swipped, give your partner a oneshot use of one of Dukemon's attacks?

Other, more "Generic" weaponry, like the weapon equis from Digimon World 4, would only have stat/damage mods.

I'm assuming that "Digimodify: Digivolution Activate!" won't actually be a Tamers Extension and will just be fluff for the normal Digivolution Mechanic.

I would imagine so, in all cases? Though, I'll point out that some of these weapons are pointed out to be holy or demonic or otherwise particularly strong against certain enemy types, which might be the point of modding on specific weapons. I.e. calling out Dukemon's card is mostly a damage boost against unholy enemies, default fluff is just that your partner now has its holy lance Gram.

[Rater202]

No, I mean like, if you wanted the Card to Equip Gram(That Extension) you need the Dukemon Card(An Earlier Extension) as a prerequisite?

Like, Swiping the Mon's Card is a oneshot use of one of that Mon's attacks(Renamon using SnowAgumon's attack against Allomon), but then you need the Mon's card to get that other card that gives the Mon access to the other mon's Item?

Or should they be separated entirely?

[Almarck]

I'm alive, just been busy.

I say we should separate equip cards whenever possible. No need to get a mon's card to say use weapons associated with it.

[vasharanpaladin]

No, I mean like, if you wanted the Card to Equip Gram(That Extension) you need the Dukemon Card(An Earlier Extension) as a prerequisite?

Like, Swiping the Mon's Card is a oneshot use of one of that Mon's attacks(Renamon using SnowAgumon's attack against Allomon), but then you need the Mon's card to get that other card that gives the Mon access to the other mon's Item?

Or should they be separated entirely?

...Oh, much less confusing. Yeah. To get Shishiomaru specifically you need the Leomon card first. But once you have them they can be used separately.

[Philemonite]

13 pages is a very long read, and i really can't do it now. I am assuming you are going for an adaptation of a more "standard" system, like M&M or some D&D variant, but I have something complete different I made for a game that didn't really get far (mostly my fault, my activity wasn't really on a high level). Anyway, here is what I have, and if someone can tell me what you guys did so far I would be very grateful.

Combat

Every Digimon has 4 dice pools: Accuracy, Evasion, Power and Defense.
When you use an attack against an enemy you roll the the dice in your Accuracy pool. A roll of 6-9 is a success, a roll of 10 is a success and you roll another die. A roll of 1-5 is a failure.
In response, your opponent rolls the dice in his Evasion pool.
If you have more successes then your enemy your attack hits. You then roll the dice in your Power pool and your enemy rolls his Defense pool. If you have more successes then the enemy you deal one point of damage for every extra success.
Every attack carries a certain elemental property. Every digimon has positive affinity with one elemental(+1 die for every roll) and negative affinity with two elementals(-1 die for every roll).

Digimon Creation

Each digimon will start with two dice in each pool and 4 extra dice to spend. No pool can have more then 4 dice.
Champion and Armor forms add two extra dice, while Ultimate forms give three extra dice.
Each digimon has 1 positive and two negative affinities. This can be chosen from Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Ice, Thunder, Light, Dark and Wood.
Each character picks either Armor Digivolution, Digi-Modification or Spirit Evolution.
Each character must pick one of 8 crest tags(remember, Darkness replaces Hope) and Digimon that belongs to a matching family.
Base HP is 8.

Primary Trait

Each digimon has a primary trait that defines the digimon's purpose in combat. There are 4 primary traits:

True Defender: Whenever an ally under 50%HP is attacked you can chose to intercept the attack. +3 HP
Exploit Weakness: When attacking an enemy with an elemental attack he is weak to add one extra accuracy and power die. +1 HP
Support Focus: +1 effect to any healing or buff ability. +1 HP
Master Controller: Any technique that inflicts negative effect and deals no damage has two extra accuracy dice.

Techniques

Standard attack techniques get +2 Accuracy and +2 Power. There are also focused (+3/+1) and mighty (+1/+3) techniques.
Other techniques have various effects that need to be discussed with GM.
Rookie form has one attack technique. Other forms have two techniques each.

Armor Digivolution

Armor Digivolution is an alternative to Champion (or Ultimate) form. Armor digivolution is activated by using a Digi-Egg. Characters start with one Digi-Egg of their choice that provides them with an extra form. Other Digi-Eggs can be obtained during the game. Your digimon can not use someone else's Digi-Egg, however, you can freely exchange Digi-Eggs at your base.

Digi Modifications

Digi Modifications are special cards that can be used to improve your digimon's performance. Characters start with two basic cards that can be used once per encounter. More cards can be obtained during the game. Cards can be exchanged at the base.

Spirit Evolution

Spirit Evolution is a special form of evolution where children combine with Spirits to morph into a digimon. It is similar to Armor Digivolution, each spirit provides another form. At higher levels the spirits can be combined to provide more powerful forms.


Basic cards

Speed: Adds one evasion die. 2 turns.
Stamina: Adds one defense die. 2 turns.
Force: Adds one power die. 2 turns.
Focus: Adds one accuracy die. 2 turns.
Flame: Adds one fire die. 2 turns.
Shine: Adds one light die. 2 turns.
Douse: Adds one water die. 2 turns.
Chill: Adds one ice die. 2 turns.
Clay: Adds one earth die. 2 turns.
Gust: Adds one wind die. 2 turns.
Shade: Adds one darkness die. 2 turns.
Spark: Adds one thunder die. 2 turns.

And that's the basics. I doesn't look like much, but it has amazing customization potential and it is very easy to understand. If you guys are interested I can dug up some sample characters.

[vasharanpaladin]

No, I mean like, if you wanted the Card to Equip Gram(That Extension) you need the Dukemon Card(An Earlier Extension) as a prerequisite?


...Yes, that's what I said. You need "Dukemon - Modify" to get "Dukemon - Gram." I just went further to point out that you do not need to use "Dukemon - Modify" in order to use "Dukemon - Gram."

[Rater202]

...Yes, that's what I said. You need "Dukemon - Modify" to get "Dukemon - Gram." I just went further to point out that you do not need to use "Dukemon - Modify" in order to use "Dukemon - Gram."

Why did you quote that post again?

You already responded to it once.

[vasharanpaladin]

Why did you quote that post again?

You already responded to it once.

...

...Probably because I'm tired and stressed out from putting off my session prep until the last second again. Don't judge. :smallsigh:

[Blackhawk748]

...

...Probably because I'm tired and stressed out from putting off my session prep until the last second again. Don't judge. :smallsigh:

*hands a bag of pretzels and a can of Mtn Dew* I feel ya.


13 pages is a very long read, and i really can't do it now. I am assuming you are going for an adaptation of a more "standard" system, like M&M or some D&D variant, but I have something complete different I made for a game that didn't really get far (mostly my fault, my activity wasn't really on a high level). Anyway, here is what I have, and if someone can tell me what you guys did so far I would be very grateful.

Combat

Every Digimon has 4 dice pools: Accuracy, Evasion, Power and Defense.
When you use an attack against an enemy you roll the the dice in your Accuracy pool. A roll of 6-9 is a success, a roll of 10 is a success and you roll another die. A roll of 1-5 is a failure.
In response, your opponent rolls the dice in his Evasion pool.
If you have more successes then your enemy your attack hits. You then roll the dice in your Power pool and your enemy rolls his Defense pool. If you have more successes then the enemy you deal one point of damage for every extra success.
Every attack carries a certain elemental property. Every digimon has positive affinity with one elemental(+1 die for every roll) and negative affinity with two elementals(-1 die for every roll).

Digimon Creation

Each digimon will start with two dice in each pool and 4 extra dice to spend. No pool can have more then 4 dice.
Champion and Armor forms add two extra dice, while Ultimate forms give three extra dice.
Each digimon has 1 positive and two negative affinities. This can be chosen from Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Ice, Thunder, Light, Dark and Wood.
Each character picks either Armor Digivolution, Digi-Modification or Spirit Evolution.
Each character must pick one of 8 crest tags(remember, Darkness replaces Hope) and Digimon that belongs to a matching family.
Base HP is 8.

Primary Trait

Each digimon has a primary trait that defines the digimon's purpose in combat. There are 4 primary traits:

True Defender: Whenever an ally under 50%HP is attacked you can chose to intercept the attack. +3 HP
Exploit Weakness: When attacking an enemy with an elemental attack he is weak to add one extra accuracy and power die. +1 HP
Support Focus: +1 effect to any healing or buff ability. +1 HP
Master Controller: Any technique that inflicts negative effect and deals no damage has two extra accuracy dice.

Techniques

Standard attack techniques get +2 Accuracy and +2 Power. There are also focused (+3/+1) and mighty (+1/+3) techniques.
Other techniques have various effects that need to be discussed with GM.
Rookie form has one attack technique. Other forms have two techniques each.

Armor Digivolution

Armor Digivolution is an alternative to Champion (or Ultimate) form. Armor digivolution is activated by using a Digi-Egg. Characters start with one Digi-Egg of their choice that provides them with an extra form. Other Digi-Eggs can be obtained during the game. Your digimon can not use someone else's Digi-Egg, however, you can freely exchange Digi-Eggs at your base.

Digi Modifications

Digi Modifications are special cards that can be used to improve your digimon's performance. Characters start with two basic cards that can be used once per encounter. More cards can be obtained during the game. Cards can be exchanged at the base.

Spirit Evolution

Spirit Evolution is a special form of evolution where children combine with Spirits to morph into a digimon. It is similar to Armor Digivolution, each spirit provides another form. At higher levels the spirits can be combined to provide more powerful forms.


Basic cards

Speed: Adds one evasion die. 2 turns.
Stamina: Adds one defense die. 2 turns.
Force: Adds one power die. 2 turns.
Focus: Adds one accuracy die. 2 turns.
Flame: Adds one fire die. 2 turns.
Shine: Adds one light die. 2 turns.
Douse: Adds one water die. 2 turns.
Chill: Adds one ice die. 2 turns.
Clay: Adds one earth die. 2 turns.
Gust: Adds one wind die. 2 turns.
Shade: Adds one darkness die. 2 turns.
Spark: Adds one thunder die. 2 turns.

And that's the basics. I doesn't look like much, but it has amazing customization potential and it is very easy to understand. If you guys are interested I can dug up some sample characters.

Also this is interesting. Currently im cannibalizing M&M so i can probably loot some of this to apply here.

[Shadowz1797]

Post to show I'm still present. Now is the time to pick a chief for governing the archetype creations. This requires collaboration of all but organization of one, would anyone want to fill that role?

[Philemonite]

Also this is interesting. Currently im cannibalizing M&M so i can probably loot some of this to apply here.

I can dig up some character sheets if you want.

[Blackhawk748]

I can dig up some character sheets if you want.

Sure, PM them to me, and ill see what i can steal borrow.

[Philemonite]

Sure, PM them to me, and ill see what i can steal borrow.

Dude, your storage is full.


Anyway, here is all the stuff:

This (https://docs.google.com/document/d/155dfB_w0LniyjkU2mbNrQc9D-mkNglKeFfpIw_PUjcw/edit) two (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1zZe1y9AEjkM21LdTQwbHpVMVk/edit) are the only actual sheets, the rest were just OOC posts, so I will just link to them.

One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18083902&postcount=5), two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18085267&postcount=7), three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18087328&postcount=8), four (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18101145&postcount=10) and five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18111860&postcount=13).
I think that should give you more then enough ideas.
Now i really want to give that game another try...

[Blackhawk748]

Dude, your storage is full.


Anyway, here is all the stuff:

This (https://docs.google.com/document/d/155dfB_w0LniyjkU2mbNrQc9D-mkNglKeFfpIw_PUjcw/edit) two (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1zZe1y9AEjkM21LdTQwbHpVMVk/edit) are the only actual sheets, the rest were just OOC posts, so I will just link to them.

One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18083902&postcount=5), two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18085267&postcount=7), three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18087328&postcount=8), four (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18101145&postcount=10) and five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18111860&postcount=13).
I think that should give you more then enough ideas.
Now i really want to give that game another try...

Well.......that embarrassing lol

And thanks, ill start flipping through this.

[Rater202]

Everyone still alive?

Hows this?

Extension:Card Slash/Digimodify: Bash Katana Activate
Type: Human
Rank:1
Prerequisites:Seeker Archetype, Tamer Progression
This extension gives the Tamer a "Bash Katana" equip card. as a Tamer action the tamer can swipe the card through their D-Arc, which equips their Digimon Partner with the titular Bash Katana, raising your partner's "To hit" stat by 2 for the remainder of the scene.

I'm not limiting myself to the actual Digimon Card Game, btw, because a lot of the cards used in Tamers weren't in the TCG at the time either.

Bash Katana is taken from the "Default" weapon equip for Dorumon in Digimon World 4

[Shadowz1797]

I'm on break starting today so LETS GET REINVIGORAAATEEEDDDDD WOOOOOH

[Blackhawk748]

I'm on break starting today so LETS GET REINVIGORAAATEEEDDDDD WOOOOOH

Why do i feel the urge to act like the hungover guy? :smalltongue:

[Shadowz1797]

hahaha :D. btw rater that looks good, if you want to spearhead more tamer oriented stuff go for it, I think i'm gonna start doing some stuff for adventure tomorrow

[Blackhawk748]

hahaha :D. btw rater that looks good, if you want to spearhead more tamer oriented stuff go for it, I think i'm gonna start doing some stuff for adventure tomorrow

Yay! ill stop procrastinating and try to get those skills done. :smalltongue:

[Shadowz1797]

These are some sample Tier 1 support skills for Digi-Destined (they're generic because of tier 1, NOT because of archetype)

Support
Tier 1:

Name: [Inspire], prerequisite: [None], Usage [Combat, 2x a Day, Digimon]
Description: Grants +1 to all rolls made by a target Digimon within 15 feet


Name: [Healer], prerequisite: [None], Usage [Passive]
Description: Digimon passively adds +1 to all healing amounts

Name: [Redeem], prerequisite: [None], Usage [Upon rolling, 1x a Day, Digimon]
Description: After an unsuccessful roll, this ability allows any Digimon to reattempt the check.

Name: [Dazzling Confusion], prerequisite: [None], Usage [Combat, 2x a Day, Any Target]
Description: The user dashes around the target causing a ruckus trying to confuse them, target receives a -2 Penalty to Defense Rolls

Please leave comments so I can either continue or change method

[JBPuffin]

So I seem to be too late, but uh...okay guys, anyone here know Arcran? Well, on another site he found this other guy's Digimon project and did some polishing, and it's - let's just say it works for now. If this is necromancy, sue me, but I had to let you in on this thing's existence.

The link to the page I got it from is here (http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/topic/10226041/1/). There's a PDF download there. I hope this is useful, at least for inspiration. Cheers, and good luck to you all.

[Rater202]

Been less than a month, so no Necro.

So, having read the document, I note that they made the same mistake about Mode Change that sme of us made, that it's a rather simple system, that it has rules for burst mode but not post-ultimate and super ultimate, and despite featuring a D-Tector and a Xros Loader in the cover art, it has no rules for Hybrid Digimon or Digixros.

Not sure if this is what we're looking for.

[vasharanpaladin]

Been less than a month, so no Necro.

So, having read the document, I note that they made the same mistake about Mode Change that sme of us made, that it's a rather simple system, that it has rules for burst mode but not post-ultimate and super ultimate, and despite featuring a D-Tector and a Xros Loader in the cover art, it has no rules for Hybrid Digimon or Digixros.

Not sure if this is what we're looking for.

It's a start, at least? I stand by "don't look a gift horse in the mouth;" we have an extant one that we can expand on and clean up as desired. Saves some of the workload, don't you think?

[Blackhawk748]

It's a start, at least? I stand by "don't look a gift horse in the mouth;" we have an extant one that we can expand on and clean up as desired. Saves some of the workload, don't you think?

I agree, i mean half the work is thinking up feats and stuff, so at least thats out of the way