Let's Make This [Digimon RP] You never know till you've tried

[Shadowz1797]

So lets face it,

I'm a digimon fan.

Not to say I don't love Pokemon, I do. It's just after watching season 3 of digimon repeatedly, Digimon has a special place in my heart. Seeing the huge success of Pokemon Tabletop, I was wondering if I could recruit a group of people to go on an epic journey, a journey to trying to create:

A VIABLE DIGIMON ROLEPLAYING GAME

I realize there are many difficulties that lie ahead of us adventurers.

The fact that in most iterations of digimon there is only one "partner" digimon may seem off-putting, however the fact that there is no role-playing version of this out there yet means we can be the deciders of how to work around this. We can be the architects of a great game.

The world of Digimon is already welcoming to zany creations, and the sheer variety of plots occurring just in the anime shows how crazy and awesome people could get role-playing digimon if given a foundation.

So I seek those with ideas, those willing to devote energy to becoming the sculptors of a role-playing wonder,

DIGIMON THE ROLE PLAYING GAME (a good version)

please reply if interested, I'll post ideas more in depth shortly.

[Blackhawk748]

dont know how much help ill be, but i love this idea, and ill chime in with whatever i can think of.

[Shadowz1797]

AND THEN THERE WERE TWO!!!!!

(since we're coming up on the weekend I'll make a major post Friday Night/Saturday Morning (EST) detailing ideas, systems, etc.)

That will also give us the chance of hopefully getting more recruits as a core group of people=better efficiency.

For compiling ideas and such: this weekend I'll also make a variety of google docs to be shared and edited, to serve as our "core books" if you will.

Thanks so much, lets bring this vision to fruition.

[AuraTwilight]

Count me in.

[Rakaydos]

I dont know that much about digimon ( seen season 3, and a little bit each of 01 and 02) butthere's a few systems I really enjoy (which are not d20) that I'd like to shill for.

Unlike pokemon, it's pretty clear that tamers can and will be attacked by digimon. Bodyguard-type talents should probably come standard with the digivise.

[Shadowz1797]

AND THEN THERE WERE 4!!!!!!!

Very excited to have all of you in.

As for your point about tamers getting attacked:
That's one of the areas where Digimon has the potential of being an awesome system, because while we can implement a well rounded class system for the tamers themselves, we can also have players experience customizing their Digimon. (In a method similar to leveling up in Pokemon Tabletop, or maybe even have it more precise and more akin to classing, WHO KNOWS!!!!!

Once again, thank you all, come tonight or tomorrow I will make a large post.
Be Ready.

[Rakaydos]

Do we really want a class based system for tamers? I would imagine a skill based system would better reflect the variety we see in the shows.
Perhaps a template based on the digivise selected? So a Renamon with an 02 Digivise gets Armor Transformatins, but a Tamers Digivise get Digi-modify cards?

[Shadowz1797]

Do we really want a class based system for tamers? I would imagine a skill based system would better reflect the variety we see in the shows.
Perhaps a template based on the digivise selected? So a Renamon with an 02 Digivise gets Armor Transformatins, but a Tamers Digivise get Digi-modify cards?

That's a great point, but I think could be fused well with a class. A prerequisite for the class could be posession of the digivice. For example a Tamer Class would need Digivice 03 and higher skills of INT possibly. Just a thought.

[Rakaydos]

That's a great point, but I think could be fused well with a class. A prerequisite for the class could be posession of the digivice. For example a Tamer Class would need Digivice 03 and higher skills of INT possibly. Just a thought.

The issue with that, I think, is that it makes all the TV shows except 02 into single-class adventuring parties.

I'm thinking something more like the white wolf "Everyone uses this one subsystem, unless you're brave enough to combine books" that they use for WoD and Exalted. It also means we can worry a bit less about digivise balance, because of how everyone in the party would have the same effects.

[Shadowz1797]

Very strong point indeed. Sometime tomorrow afternoon (EST) I'll make a giant intro post, and well start getting organized. Again let me thank you adventurers for joining me on this task.

[Blackhawk748]

As we seem to be debating what basic system to use, i must say that i do support d10, as it makes character creation very easy. However i am going to advocate for a D20 system similar to Mutants and Masterminds, as i feel their combat system will better reflect the combat style of Digimon, on the plus side its classless.

[Shadowz1797]

I do enjoy mutants and masterminds combat. And again I see what you guys mean with subsets to go off of, it does allow for actual variety within a restriction being their identical digivices in a game.

[Rakaydos]

I would love it if we could twist the Myriad Song system to fit- I'll need to ask around to see if there's a good way of doing a "pet" in that system we can expand on.

[Shadowz1797]

POST TIME!!!!!!

My Vision
I want groups to be able to have a fun and challenging experience being their own digi destined. I wan the combat to flow well regardless of the limitations of set moves for Digimon, and I want to try and remain as faithful to the series as possible, making adjustments when needed for the viability of a fun tabletop game. I also want the created system to be open and easy for people to create "Fakemon", as Digimon has always been a very creative series and I think it would be in the spirit of the series to take this creativity to the tabletop game with us.

Organization
I would like all of you to post your interests below, so that we can divide up the sections of work. The interests to choose from are:
-Combat System
-General Exploration, skills
-Character Archetyping
-Digimon Archiving
-any additional needs you are interested in dealing with please post also
I will be acting as a help on all different sections, and basically the project overseer, compiling all the different sections into one cohesive unit.



Please reply, by tonight I'll post my actual ideas for combat, leveling up, and general gameplay. Keep in mind I will most likely be starting a game on Rpol.net, so that we can frequently playtest. obviously before we start we need to have a unified vision, so that we can divide up the work without interfering with eachother.

[vasharanpaladin]

One, I like d20 as the resolution mechanic, so don't expect me to offer too much help with regard to numbers if that isn't the one we use here.

Two, W40RPG-style talent trees on top of "racial" bonuses from Digivice and partner species (or Spirit, in the case of Hybrid Evolution mechanics)? Or porting the mechanics from one of the Digimon World games a la Pokémon Tabletop? This is important, tells us how much actual work we need to do, as opposed to how much we can rip bloody-handed from an existing game.

Regarding Interception/Bodyguard mechanics, keep in mind that most Tamers/Chosen Children are generally less combat-inclined than the Child-level Digimon they're partnered with. To keep that feel is to remove player agency, and basically make the Tamer's only options in combat "shout encouragement" or "run," with "Hybrid Evolution" being an option for a Frontier-esque campaign.

And speaking of evolution, how shall that be handled? Stat template "shell programs"? Will players have to submit a full evolutionary line in advance? Noting here that Agumon can evolve into practically every Adult-level Digimon somehow.

[Shadowz1797]

One, I like d20 as the resolution mechanic, so don't expect me to offer too much help with regard to numbers if that isn't the one we use here.

Two, W40RPG-style talent trees on top of "racial" bonuses from Digivice and partner species (or Spirit, in the case of Hybrid Evolution mechanics)? Or porting the mechanics from one of the Digimon World games a la Pokémon Tabletop? This is important, tells us how much actual work we need to do, as opposed to how much we can rip bloody-handed from an existing game.

Regarding Interception/Bodyguard mechanics, keep in mind that most Tamers/Chosen Children are generally less combat-inclined than the Child-level Digimon they're partnered with. To keep that feel is to remove player agency, and basically make the Tamer's only options in combat "shout encouragement" or "run," with "Hybrid Evolution" being an option for a Frontier-esque campaign.

And speaking of evolution, how shall that be handled? Stat template "shell programs"? Will players have to submit a full evolutionary line in advance? Noting here that Agumon can evolve into practically every Adult-level Digimon somehow.

As for d20, that's the system I'm in support of, I believe it offers more flexibility and variation etc.

I personally feel it's possible to go either way with how we handle tamer specifics. While I think a talent tree would be interesting, I still think it's possible to implement a class system. Right off the bat I can look to PTU for class inspiration and come up with a solid set of: Brawler (combat oriented tamer), Strategist (Bonus Rolls for preparation/strategy etc, high INT), Chainer (Work in tandem with digimon, all sorts of combos, buff digimon, still have combat skills, etc.), Commander (Basically a buffer of entire party, can operate almost as a guardian), Healer (for lack of a better name, they are the main damage people, lol jk.). Dual-Classing could be a possibility and maybe even a suggestion to players.

As for tamers being able to fight, I understand they're supposedly young kids, but I do think there is a place for them to fight, and weapons could become commonplace. Also as they're the digi destined I think we can assume augmented abilities and such.

In advance I think it would be best if players were following a line beforehand, as most Digimon do have determined In-training, rookie, champion, ultimate, and mega forms, and then leave the rest up to the GM, for example if a tamer with agumon following basic line through wargreymon comes across an item allowing an additional evolution, that's absolutely fine with me.

As for digivolving, I think it would be easiest if it served as 2 main things. First off as a stat augmenter, there should be a set bonus/formula added to stats while in a different form. Obviously the bonus would increase depending on form of the digimon. However I do think we also need to add in different skills and abilities, as they are changing, and Hawkmon can't fly as Shurimon but can as Aquilamon, so obviously they should have different skillsets.

All my opinion, would love other input.

[Rater202]

I want in. I'm very knowledgeable about the Franchise.

I suggest that each Archetype have two or three alternate progressions paths.

Example Archetypes

Chosen Child:You are partnered with your Digimon due to Destiny Your Digimon feeds on your emotions.

Crest Barer:you have a special power within you, that may or may not be focused by a crest, The Digimon Partners of a Crest Barer are slightly more powerful than others of their level and reach more advanced forms the most quickly, but are more vulnerable to Dark Evolution/Digivolution*

Digemental Bearer: You wield one or more of the Digimentals, and with the Power of your D3 and D-Terminal can use them to evolve your partner into Armor Forms, granting a great degree of versatility. However, to make up for this versatility, you have the slowest progression through forms

Seeker: You aren't chosen by destiny. You sought out your Digimon, or it sought out you

Tamer: You have D-Arch. This allows you to scan cards to provide Data that temporarily augments your Digimon's abilities(usually Digimon trading Cards) You also have a much closer emotional bond with your partner than most that eventually allows you to combine with your partner, becoming a mega level with a great deal more potency than most members of it's species. but, this bond is a two edged sword-when one of you is overwhelmed by emotions, so is the other, and when your partner is hurt, you feel their pain.

DATS Agent: You've been recruited by a government agency that employs humans and digimon. Your custom Digivice alows yout to channel D.N.A/Digisoul, which allows your partner to rapidly digivolve, skipping to it's strongest form or just evolving or regressing through it's unlocked forms. It also gives you easiest access to Burst Mode-The Mythical level beyond Mega(Not to be confused with Ultra/Super Ultimate, the true level beyond Mega) But, Burst Mode can be dangerous and if performed improperly will destroy your partner, so easy access to it could be a liability

Merger: You do't have a partner. You have the power to turn into a Digimon.

Spirit Wielder. You have one or more spirits that come from some ancient or legendary Digimon. Becoming a Hybrid Digimon gives your great strength and the power to draw on nature to empower yourself, but not only must you find your Beast Spirit before you can advance to your ultimate Equivalent form, and other beast and human Spirits to Advance to the highest levels of power in addition to the prerequisite experience to maintain such forms, but you're restricted to one element or Attribute

Bio-Hybrid: Bio-Hybrids are works of mad science, a frankensteinian mixture of human DNA and Digimon Data. Biohybrids posses the greatest level of variety in forms, due to having multiple Digimon forms uploaded into them as opposed to true Digivolution, and are the only group other than Digimental wielding chosen Children to have Armor Forms, but they must have their forms programed into their cybernetic digivices, which takes time. Form Acquisition can also be unethical, and sometimes your Digimon Half might want out...

I've also got Xroswars inspired archetypes and a Lone Digimon one, but I'm havign a hard time figuring out paths one could take.

I figure a point buy system with ranks(You spend XP to buy character options, but you also keep track of how much total XP you've earned and when it hits a certain level, you rank up and have more and stronger options to take) and with General, Archetype Specific, and Path Specific options.

[vasharanpaladin]

As for d20, that's the system I'm in support of, I believe it offers more flexibility and variation etc.

I personally feel it's possible to go either way with how we handle tamer specifics. While I think a talent tree would be interesting, I still think it's possible to implement a class system. Right off the bat I can look to PTU for class inspiration and come up with a solid set of: Brawler (combat oriented tamer), Strategist (Bonus Rolls for preparation/strategy etc, high INT), Chainer (Work in tandem with digimon, all sorts of combos, buff digimon, still have combat skills, etc.), Commander (Basically a buffer of entire party, can operate almost as a guardian), Healer (for lack of a better name, they are the main damage people, lol jk.). Dual-Classing could be a possibility and maybe even a suggestion to players.

Talent trees are more organic, and we have the Bleach and One Piece d20 RPG's demonstrating that d20 =/= class-based. They can even be organized by "class"! I can see Strategist and Commander almost being the same tree, for instance, branching between single-target "just as planned" moments and full-party "the enemy's gate is down!" ones as you climb higher up the tree... but that shouldn't preclude the Tamer from being able to take restorative talents, or combat-oriented ones. Just have a few major trees and pretty much every possible build can go on between them.



As for tamers being able to fight, I understand they're supposedly young kids, but I do think there is a place for them to fight, and weapons could become commonplace. Also as they're the digi destined I think we can assume augmented abilities and such.

The "Digi-Destined," or Chosen Children, were specifically the group in Adventure (not 02). A kid who happens to have a Digimon is just a Tamer. I think it'd be up to the GM and whatever mood he wants to set which term is used in the campaign, but it'd be better to use "Tamer" in rules text, as it doesn't set up the expectation of PC steamrolling as readily.



In advance I think it would be best if players were following a line beforehand, as most Digimon do have determined In-training, rookie, champion, ultimate, and mega forms, and then leave the rest up to the GM, for example if a tamer with agumon following basic line through wargreymon comes across an item allowing an additional evolution, that's absolutely fine with me.

As for digivolving, I think it would be easiest if it served as 2 main things. First off as a stat augmenter, there should be a set bonus/formula added to stats while in a different form. Obviously the bonus would increase depending on form of the digimon. However I do think we also need to add in different skills and abilities, as they are changing, and Hawkmon can't fly as Shurimon but can as Aquilamon, so obviously they should have different skillsets.


So, "shell programs" (read: templates), basically? At least in the case of evolving into other Digimon of the same family? I can see following default lines working this way (your Agumon -> WarGreymon example includes each one building on the Child form's attack, to whit Pepper Breath -> Nova Blast -> Tera Force and Mega Claw -> Dramon Destroyer), but there might be some oddities with some oddball lines that way...

On that note, will we be pre-statting Child Digimon for player use? Might be a bit overwhelming just dumping players into the "build your own" corner.

[Rater202]

No. Digidestined was the dub translation of "Chosen Children" and that is everybody who had a Digimon in Adventure and ADventure 02.

It was also used in the Dub of Frontier a few times, but for the most part those kids were called the Legendary Warriors, sharing a Dub Name with the Ancient 10

[Almarck]

I know D20 and the WoD Storytelling/Storyteller systems the most, I also am only familiar with the first four seasons of the anime and even then it's been years, but I'll pitch in my two cents.

As much as I like White Wolf, Storyteller isn't so good for type of game featuring mons with a mostly linear progression. It's too "flat" in a sense, and might not be good enough and isn't good enough to portray the progression of Digivolution.

The d20 systemis had the advantage of most everyone here being familiar with most of it (Classes, Races, ect), because we're on a board the started due to a comic that features 3.5.

One thing I wouldn't mind is that in addition to "tamers" we should allow the option to either forgo "partners" in essence, playing a digimon or doing something similar to what Frontier did.

With this in mind, I think it'd be a smart move to categorize different types of player into classes, assuming we go for a d20 or class modeling system. Another advantage is that you could break down "people who have digimon partners" into lesser groups or subclasses or archetypes. "Destined", "Tamers", ect, but the point is that people who have digimon follow their own mechanics with slight differences in boosting.

Also, another advantage is leveling allows us to define the power a digimon can progress in a linear fashion, set up evolution trees, ect.

I think most of us are familiar with templates, and that can work quite well.

[Shadowz1797]

We can even make talent trees for digimon. that way people aren't scared off of choosing the one they want because it doesn't fit into a specific type. We could just do basic Damge/Support/Defense with flashed up names but make them to keep things interesting.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, im gonna toss in my two cents for Digivolution. I think we need to remember that when they Digivolve it isnt permanent, they just go up a "level" and stay that way for a Scene. Also i think we need to have something in place to stop PCs from always going "maximum power" as in the Anime the dont always go straight to mega. Maybe going up one stage takes one round? That way it takes 3 rounds to get to Mega, not a huge negative but i think most PCs would try to win at a lower power level than just jump straight to max.

As to the Digivolution paths, i think that PCs should pick which form they get when they attain the proper lvl/XP amount, and then go from there. EX Agumon could go Greymon or Meramon, but once he picks hes "locked" in to that path.

As for Attacks, most Digimon have 2-4 Signature attacks, otherwise they just use "basic attacks" EX clawing, biting, tail slapping ect. So maybe their signature moves should have some sort of cool down, maybe 1d4 to 1d6 rounds depending on power?


We can even make talent trees for digimon. that way people aren't scared off of choosing the one they want because it doesn't fit into a specific type. We could just do basic Damge/Support/Defense with flashed up names but make them to keep things interesting.

This is a good plan, Pokemon Tabletop United has all sorts of feats and various abilities pokemon can acquire, and Digimon are, in general, more intelligent than Pokemon so i see no reason why we couldnt make a list of "general talents" that all Digimon could take.

[vasharanpaladin]

No. Digidestined was the dub translation of "Chosen Children" and that is everybody who had a Digimon in Adventure and ADventure 02.

Because it worked differently. And from the look of things, 02 is being retconned out of existence anyway. :smalltongue:

"Tamer" is still less weighty than "Chosen Child." The latter should be used only at the GM's discretion, if only to prevent players from assuming they're supposed to steamroll everything just reading the book.

...I do, however, like your handy list of archetypes/sub-archetypes (though I prefer "Bonder" for the Frontier/Bio-Evolve group for some reason)~

[Blackhawk748]

Because it worked differently. And from the look of things, 02 is being retconned out of existence anyway. :smalltongue:

"Tamer" is still less weighty than "Chosen Child." The latter should be used only at the GM's discretion, if only to prevent players from assuming they're supposed to steamroll everything just reading the book.

...I do, however, like your handy list of archetypes/sub-archetypes (though I prefer "Bonder" for the Frontier/Bio-Evolve group for some reason)~

Wait, why would they do that? I loved Armor Digivolution.

Edit: I just checked Wikipedia, so take this with some salt, but it seems as if Adventure 2 isnt completely retconned.

Anyway i also think Tamer works better, seems like a more general term, while Digidestined has more "weight".

[vasharanpaladin]

Wait, why would they do that? I loved Armor Digivolution.

Anyway i also think Tamer works better, seems like a more general term, while Digidestined has more "weight".

It's only rumor at the moment. They were showing bits from a new season that included the Adventure kids, but nothing from 02's been seen so far.

And the general consensus is that this is a good thing, between Daisuke being, well, Daisuke and generally poor plot.

[Blackhawk748]

It's only rumor at the moment. They were showing bits from a new season that included the Adventure kids, but nothing from 02's been seen so far.

And the general consensus is that this is a good thing, between Daisuke being, well, Daisuke and generally poor plot.

Ya, Davis was, well Davis, but as long as they keep Armor Digivolution im happy. Speaking of which we should totally include it.

[Shadowz1797]

Armor evolution will be prevalent in these versions, remember the core book will probably contain info on all of these, so that the GM can use evolutions at their own discretion. There's no saying that armor evolution, using cards, or biomerging can't exist in every game. OK. So if we think both tamers/digimon should operate via a talent tree system, lets get people theorizing the talent trees while someone comes up with how combat should work, I think d20 works best.

I'll personally volunteer for talent trees, i think I'm best suited for that.

If you want to volunteer for combat post in here, and then start working on a template. Then post said template in this group so it can be gone over and we can modify talent trees around that.

If you want to help me on talent trees also please post, but post with an email I can use for sending over google docs.

As for digivolutions, I agree there should be a penalty for digivolving, as you don't want people to perma-mega, taking turns is a great idea, also if we have a stat on the tamer called "spirit" or something that could operate sort of like chakra in naruto, draining as they use abilities, or in the case of digimon, each turn the tamer's digi-spirit is drained by keeping their digimon in an evolved form, higher forms such as mega costing a lot of digi-spirit per turn. This mechanic would work because it would force tamers to conserve as if their digi-spirit runs out, they're stuck with a rookie digimon.

[Blackhawk748]

Im up for working on Combat, and as i said im for using Mutants and Masterminds basic combat system, as not using HP seems like a good way to go.

[Shadowz1797]

Im up for working on Combat, and as i said im for using Mutants and Masterminds basic combat system, as not using HP seems like a good way to go.

I agree, lets make sure everyone else is on board, give people about an hour to reply to that, if no replies, go right ahead.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree, lets make sure everyone else is on board, give people about an hour to reply to that, if no replies, go right ahead.

How about 24 hours? make sure everyone has a chance, also we can have decent debate about basic combat systems in that time.

[Shadowz1797]

That works for me, sorry just getting excited haha.

As much as i'm a fan of MvM combat, I also think HP based could work. it will be very interesting to see what others have to say.

[vasharanpaladin]

As for digivolutions, I agree there should be a penalty for digivolving, as you don't want people to perma-mega, taking turns is a great idea, also if we have a stat on the tamer called "spirit" or something that could operate sort of like chakra in naruto, draining as they use abilities, or in the case of digimon, each turn the tamer's digi-spirit is drained by keeping their digimon in an evolved form, higher forms such as mega costing a lot of digi-spirit per turn. This mechanic would work because it would force tamers to conserve as if their digi-spirit runs out, they're stuck with a rookie digimon.

Evolution to Adult stage should eat an action, I think, possibly with a "Fast Digivolve" feat at high level to take that penalty away. The downside is that unless your "Child" is really a weak Adult like Gatomon, you can get knocked out of it (adapted D&D's massive damage rule?), and it takes time to get back to where you can evolve again. Regarding cooldowns: Do not use random numbers, it bogs the game down with bookkeeping. Use fixed numbers like PTU or the five turns of D&D's binder class.

Matrix or Crest evolution (Perfect stage) is draining on both Tamer and Digimon. If the Digimon is knocked out of its Perfect stage it immediately drops to its Baby stage (essentially useless) and can't evolve back into its Child stage for the rest of the day. The Tamer takes half the damage his partner takes while in Perfect form, but can only be knocked out by this damage, not killed. If the Tamer drops, his partner is knocked out of its current stage at the end of its next turn.

Ultimate level and beyond are near the realm of GM fiat. A Digimon that evolves to Ultimate on its own (that is, not via Biomerge or Jogress evolution) can withstand the strain of Perfect evolution better, only reverting to Child form when knocked out of it, but reverts to Baby form when knocked out of its Ultimate stage. Such a Digimon will also revert automatically after a certain number of rounds (based on the Tamer's Spirit/Fortitude?) in its Ultimate form, and be unable to evolve to its Ultimate stage again for the same number of days.

Super Ultimate level is the demesne of end bosses and, in one notable case, perfect GM fiat. Digimon that evolve to Super Ultimate level will remain so for only a single round at most before reverting to a Digi-Egg (or eggs). A Super Ultimate Digimon is as unreliable as it is powerful, more suited for a plot device if one is raised on the players' side. This goes doubly if the Super Ultimate that the players have raised is UltimateKhaosmon (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/UltimateKhaosmon).

Regarding alternate forms of evolution: H-Spirits are roughly equivalent to Adult-level Digimon, B-Spirits are Perfect level. Most Digimentals result in Adult-level power, but are not considered to be evolution.

[Blackhawk748]

Evolution to Adult stage should eat an action, I think, possibly with a "Fast Digivolve" feat at high level to take that penalty away. The downside is that unless your "Child" is really a weak Adult like Gatomon, you can get knocked out of it (adapted D&D's massive damage rule?), and it takes time to get back to where you can evolve again. Regarding cooldowns: Do not use random numbers, it bogs the game down with bookkeeping. Use fixed numbers like PTU or the five turns of D&D's binder class.

Matrix or Crest evolution (Perfect stage) is draining on both Tamer and Digimon. If the Digimon is knocked out of its Perfect stage it immediately drops to its Baby stage (essentially useless) and can't evolve back into its Child stage for the rest of the day. The Tamer takes half the damage his partner takes while in Perfect form, but can only be knocked out by this damage, not killed. If the Tamer drops, his partner is knocked out of its current stage at the end of its next turn.

Ultimate level and beyond are near the realm of GM fiat. A Digimon that evolves to Ultimate on its own (that is, not via Biomerge or Jogress evolution) can withstand the strain of Perfect evolution better, only reverting to Child form when knocked out of it, but reverts to Baby form when knocked out of its Ultimate stage. Such a Digimon will also revert automatically after a certain number of rounds (based on the Tamer's Spirit/Fortitude?) in its Ultimate form, and be unable to evolve to its Ultimate stage again for the same number of days.

Super Ultimate level is the demesne of end bosses and, in one notable case, perfect GM fiat. Digimon that evolve to Super Ultimate level will remain so for only a single round at most before reverting to a Digi-Egg (or eggs). A Super Ultimate Digimon is as unreliable as it is powerful, more suited for a plot device if one is raised on the players' side. This goes doubly if the Super Ultimate that the players have raised is UltimateKhaosmon (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/UltimateKhaosmon).

Regarding alternate forms of evolution: H-Spirits are roughly equivalent to Adult-level Digimon, B-Spirits are Perfect level. Most Digimentals result in Adult-level power, but are not considered to be evolution.

Ok several things we need to agree on:
1. Language. The above comments are using ranks im unfamiliar with (i watched the dub, sue me :smalltongue:) so we need to agree on what rank is what. The ones im familiar with, in ascending order: Baby (or Fresh), In-Training , Rookie, Champion, Ultimate, and Mega. Im ok with using the Dub or the Official Translation, we just need to be consistent.

Edit: Votes For Dubbed Terms: 1 Against: 1 Abstaining: 1

2. Digimon. Are we going to go the PTU route and pre-gen Digimon, or are we going M&M style and allow for more freedom? Personally i say go for the M&M style where PCs have more control over their partners powers. This also has the benefit of making all Agumons not the same. We could use the Three Attributes (Virus, Vaccine, Data) as baselines for Digimon creation. (I purposefully left out Free and Variable as i feel they are to uncommon to be used generally)

Votes for Pregenned Digimon: 0 (4 if we count Example Digimon) Against: 1 (this seems fairly clear cut)

[Shadowz1797]

I also am more familiar with dubbed terminology, and I think we should not go with pre genned digimon, as it's A)less work in total and B) doesn't force people to pick a partner based on what role they want to play

[vasharanpaladin]

Ok several things we need to agree on:
1. Language. The above comments are using ranks im unfamiliar with (i watched the dub, sue me :smalltongue:) so we need to agree on what rank is what. The ones im familiar with, in ascending order: Baby (or Fresh), In-Training , Rookie, Champion, Ultimate, and Mega. Im ok with using the Dub or the Official Translation, we just need to be consistent.

2. Digimon. Are we going to go the PTU route and pre-gen Digimon, or are we going M&M style and allow for more freedom? Personally i say go for the M&M style where PCs have more control over their partners powers. This also has the benefit of making all Agumons not the same. We could use the Three Attributes (Virus, Vaccine, Data) as baselines for Digimon creation. (I purposefully left out Free and Variable as i feel they are to uncommon to be used generally)

"Ultimate" means "final." That's all I feel needs to be said on which version I prefer. :smalltongue:

And yes, I would be in favor of pre-genning at least the popular partner Digimon. We're going to need examples of how the creation mechanics would work anyway...

[Blackhawk748]

"Ultimate" means "final." That's all I feel needs to be said on which version I prefer. :smalltongue:

And yes, I would be in favor of pre-genning at least the popular partner Digimon. We're going to need examples of how the creation mechanics would work anyway...

Which is fine, i dont particularly care either way, im just more familiar with the dub

And im all for Examples of Digimon, heck M&M has several example Heroes and Villains, so thats probably a good plan.

[Shadowz1797]

Works for me. We could probably go:

Damage Build Agumon
Support Build Palmon
Defense Build Gomamon

Vashara did you want to work combat or talents

[Almarck]

Pregenning works for creating an example. We should follow off with a pregenned "noncannonical" example after doing 3 or 4 of them.

Hm, I'm thinking for our primary example, all of the Augamon family could work as a start. It's the family with the most variance.

Also, I have no experience with M&M, so, is there a place I can go to get antiquated to the rules (preferably legally)?

[Blackhawk748]

Pregenning works for creating an example. We should follow off with a pregenned "noncannonical" example after doing 3 or 4 of them.

Hm, I'm thinking for our primary example, all of the Augamon family could work as a start. It's the family with the most variance.

Also, I have no experience with M&M, so, is there a place I can go to get antiquated to the rules (preferably legally)?

This gives the basic overview of M&M 3rd ed, im more familiar with 2ed, but they are quite similar on basic mechanics.

http://freeronin.com/3e_files/MnM3_Quickstart.pdf

Edit: Ok i think we are all in agreement that we'll just make a couple of Example Digimon.

[vasharanpaladin]

Works for me. We could probably go:

Damage Build Agumon
Support Build Palmon
Defense Build Gomamon

Vashara did you want to work combat or talents

We have more than one season to work with, and two of your examples aren't even in the "popular" bucket~ :smalltongue:

I'd move Agumon to "generalist" and toss in Renamon as the sample damage build (the one in Tamers almost fell into Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArrogantKungFuGuy) by association with Ruki, and it's presented in the "Power" starter pack in Digimon World 3), with Patamon as Support and V-mon as the sample Defense mon. Throw in Guilmon if we need an example "loony."

And I'll probably focus on talents, or move to pre-genning some monsters when we start getting appropriate numbers to work with. You might be against it as "more work for us," but it's really not an excuse to dump that work on the GM instead~

[Blackhawk748]

We have more than one season to work with, and two of your examples aren't even in the "popular" bucket~ :smalltongue:

I'd move Agumon to "generalist" and toss in Renamon as the sample damage build (the one in Tamers almost fell into Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArrogantKungFuGuy) by association with Ruki, and it's presented in the "Power" starter pack in Digimon World 3), with Patamon as Support and V-mon as the sample Defense mon. Throw in Guilmon if we need an example "loony."

And I'll probably focus on talents, or move to pre-genning some monsters when we start getting appropriate numbers to work with. You might be against it as "more work for us," but it's really not an excuse to dump that work on the GM instead~

Come on, Gomamon is awesome lol

Honestly several iconic guys should be pre genned, like Devimon or Piedmon, otherwise a nice toolbox of abilities to use for monsters would be really helpful. M&M 2ed has about a dozen or so villains stated out and making minions in that system is trivially easy, considering you only need a resistance roll value and an attack roll value, as well as a power or two. Part of the reason why i recommended the system is that its very easy to make diverse opponents with minimal effort.

[Shadowz1797]

Nope if were l in agreement I view more work as fine. I also had an idea (strike it down if you want) that each line has their own "innate ability" to further distinguish them outside of just numbers. So really everything will get started once we have a combat example template set and ready.

And yeah the fact that enemies other than the "bosses" can be easily genned in mutants and mastermind is awesome

[vasharanpaladin]

Nope if were l in agreement I view more work as fine. I also had an idea (strike it down if you want) that each line has their own "innate ability" to further distinguish them outside of just numbers. So really everything will get started once we have a combat example template set and ready.

And yeah the fact that enemies other than the "bosses" can be easily genned in mutants and mastermind is awesome

Using in-series specimens as examples, I can think of Renamon's ninjutsu skills and Guilmon's "my existence is the sin that breaks the world" off the top of my head, did anyone else really have anything? Besides Keramon's affinity for direct manipulation of data, since it wasn't technically a partner Digimon...

[Blackhawk748]

Nope if were l in agreement I view more work as fine. I also had an idea (strike it down if you want) that each line has their own "innate ability" to further distinguish them outside of just numbers. So really everything will get started once we have a combat example template set and ready.

And yeah the fact that enemies other than the "bosses" can be easily genned in mutants and mastermind is awesome

Honestly i dont think anyone is gonna have a problem with pregenned Digimon, im sure many a GM will thank you for it. As for each "line" having its own "innate power" that seems.....hard. And i dont mean im against hard, it just seems overly difficult for the reward. Now each "type" getting an innate power, ie: Bird, Plants, Dragons etc would be fun. The problem is im not sure how many "types" there are, so this could still be a problem.

[Shadowz1797]

All fair and understood. Types here are the ones I can come up with: (DMO helped)

-bird
-beast
-Dragon
-Aquatic
-Demon
-rock/metal
-fire
-maybe ice?
-plant

[vasharanpaladin]

Honestly i dont think anyone is gonna have a problem with pregenned Digimon, im sure many a GM will thank you for it. As for each "line" having its own "innate power" that seems.....hard. And i dont mean im against hard, it just seems overly difficult for the reward. Now each "type" getting an innate power, ie: Bird, Plants, Dragons etc would be fun. The problem is im not sure how many "types" there are, so this could still be a problem.

Eight. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Roar) Not counting Digimon of the "Unknown" family or D-Reaper agents.

[Blackhawk748]

Eight. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Roar) Not counting Digimon of the "Unknown" family or D-Reaper agents.

Wonderful, 8 is totally do able. Hell lets call it 10 with D-Reaper and Unknown being NPC only.

[Shadowz1797]

Solid. So we at least know what were doing when we get some numbers


If I were to open a game on rpol.net would you guys be willing to make an account for play testing?

[vasharanpaladin]

Solid. So we at least know what were doing when we get some numbers


If I were to open a game on rpol.net would you guys be willing to make an account for play testing?

I'd prefer not having to learn how to use yet another tool site (still getting the hang of Roll20), and am currently running a PTU game on Fridays, so it will depend on the timing.

[Blackhawk748]

Solid. So we at least know what were doing when we get some numbers


If I were to open a game on rpol.net would you guys be willing to make an account for play testing?

Im down, we need somewhere to test out our crazy ideas lol

Ill start messing around with basic combat mechanics and see where that goes.

Edit: if Roll20 is an option im already on there.

[Shadowz1797]

It's not really a utility site it is just for PBP, but it allows many sub forums and stuff self contained in a single one for the game. Play testing would happen as it's needed. If you don't want to it's honestly all good, we can always just use this thread or create another in giantitp

Edit: let me see tonight if I can dig up an old roll20 account

[dethkruzer]

Well this certainly is right up my alley of favorite franchises. I'll post to denote interest and keep this short because I'm on my phone. I have some ideas, but I'll to read through the thread again just to make sure I'm not stepping on anyones toes.

[vasharanpaladin]

Well this certainly is right up my alley of favorite franchises. I'll post to denote interest and keep this short because I'm on my phone. I have some ideas, but I'll to read through the thread again just to make sure I'm not stepping on anyones toes.

Well, I think you're in luck, all we've done so far is decide on which existing system to crib mechanics from and quibble over which naming system we use for the evolution stages. :smallwink:

[Almarck]

No time to do games. I'm more of a builder I find than a player.

[Rater202]

Because it worked differently. And from the look of things, 02 is being retconned out of existence anyway. :smalltongue:
No proof of this, and would cuase more continuity problems that it fixes

Wait, why would they do that? I loved Armor Digivolution.

Edit: I just checked Wikipedia, so take this with some salt, but it seems as if Adventure 2 isnt completely retconned.

Anyway i also think Tamer works better, seems like a more general term, while Digidestined has more "weight".
Stuff

Ya, Davis was, well Davis, but as long as they keep Armor Digivolution im happy. Speaking of which we should totally include it.
02 had a lot of executive meddling. The problem with Davis was an executive going "Wait, this ken kid is supposed to be a foail for this Davis guy. This ken gets lots of character development. don't you dare give Davis any, becuase that'll somehow magically make them worse foils for each other."

Ok several things we need to agree on:
1. Language. The above comments are using ranks im unfamiliar with (i watched the dub, sue me :smalltongue:) so we need to agree on what rank is what. The ones im familiar with, in ascending order: Baby (or Fresh), In-Training , Rookie, Champion, Ultimate, and Mega. Im ok with using the Dub or the Official Translation, we just need to be consistent.
Levels-Egg-Baby1/Fresh-Baby2/In Training-Child/Rookie-Adult/Champion-Perfect/Ultimate-Ultimate/Mega-Super Ultimate/No Dub name, but Super Mega and Ultra have both been used informally.

I have no preference either way for which is used, but if we intend to include the Super Ultimate Level, then we should probably use the Japanese titles(maybe include the english in parentheses)

Eight. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Roar) Not counting Digimon of the "Unknown" family or D-Reaper agents.
That's not type. That's family.

Types are things like "Angel" or "Dinosaur" or "Dragon" and don't seem to have any effect on things.

also, some Mega Level Digimon can Digivolve into other megalevel digimon. How should this be handled?

[Blackhawk748]

Levels-Egg-Baby1/Fresh-Baby2/In Training-Child/Rookie-Adult/Champion-Perfect/Ultimate-Ultimate/Mega-Super Ultimate/No Dub name, but Super Mega and Ultra have both been used informally.

I have no preference either way for which is used, but if we intend to include the Super Ultimate Level, then we should probably use the Japanese titles(maybe include the english in parentheses)

That's not type. That's family.

Types are things like "Angel" or "Dinosaur" or "Dragon" and don't seem to have any effect on things.

also, some Mega Level Digimon can Digivolve into other megalevel digimon. How should this be handled?

Ok, so i think we need to agree if we are going to include Super Ultimate (or Super Mega if you prefer) as this will dictate which title we use.

Ok, so we messed up on what we intended, but i think Families would be a better way to give Digimon particular "innate abilities". Yay we accidentally-ed a solution.

Im not sure, maybe when they do they lose all they clear out all the health boxes they have checked (im using M&M rules here) and they get a different power set? Really when they do this they really dont get a ton more powerful, they tend to win because they're back at maximum and have new moves the opponent has to deal with. Also it usually only happens once, so one use items?

[vasharanpaladin]

Ok, so i think we need to agree if we are going to include Super Ultimate (or Super Mega if you prefer) as this will dictate which title we use.


Only a few Super Ultimate Digimon have ever affected a storyline, really. Omegamon is the only one that canonically appeared on the protagonists' side and was pretty much Deus Ex Machina incarnate (no, I'm not counting Imperialdramon-P or any of the Burst/Ruin Mode Digimon as stage increases). Arkadimon and Daemon were the main antagonists of V-Tamer (and no, Ulforce V-dramon doesn't count either, that was a Mode Change).

So if it's included, it'd probably be a "get out of your grave free" card for the party or a means of making an appropriately powerful end boss.

[Rater202]

I'm not one hundred percent sure that "Post Megas"(what I've been calling it" should be one use things. Perhaps it should be folded into the Mode Change rules, or presented as an alternate to Burstmode...

but then again, Mode Changing sometimes changes levels(Lucemon is a rookie who Mode Changes into an Ultimate by mode changing, and UlforceVedramon becomes Super Ultimate after Mode Changing to Future Mode)

I mean, Chaosdramon is just Machinedramon(or Mugendramon, if you prefer) but better, with a sleeker design, and a red paint job.

Maybe Post MEgas, Mode Changing, Burst Mode and Super Ultimates should be mutually Exclusive optional progressions that have diferant pros and cons?

Make Mode Changing the easiest, but it's just a pure Stat Boost(UlforceVedramon Future Mode would be a Digivolution in all but name), and Super Ultimate would be the Strongest ut the hardest to pull off(if we keep the Ranking System I proposed, maybe the Talent to evolve to that level would have to be a rank or two higher than the others, Burst Mode would be a huge boost in both stats and give stronger moves, but there's a chance you could screw up and destroy yourself, and Post Megas would be a more or less just a normal progression of stats and power.

Omegamon was not Super Ultimate. He was Mega.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'm not one hundred percent sure that "Post Megas"(what I've been calling it" should be one use things. Perhaps it should be folded into the Mode Change rules, or presented as an alternate to Burstmode...

but then again, Mode Changing sometimes changes levels(Lucemon is a rookie who Mode Changes into an Ultimate by mode changing, and UlforceVedramon becomes Super Ultimate after Mode Changing to Future Mode)

I mean, Chaosdramon is just Machinedramon(or Mugendramon, if you prefer) but better, with a sleeker design, and a red paint job.

Maybe Post MEgas, Mode Changing, Burst Mode and Super Ultimates should be mutually Exclusive optional progressions that have diferant pros and cons?

Make Mode Changing the easiest, but it's just a pure Stat Boost(UlforceVedramon Future Mode would be a Digivolution in all but name), and Super Ultimate would be the Strongest ut the hardest to pull off(if we keep the Ranking System I proposed, maybe the Talent to evolve to that level would have to be a rank or two higher than the others, Burst Mode would be a huge boost in both stats and give stronger moves, but there's a chance you could screw up and destroy yourself, and Post Megas would be a more or less just a normal progression of stats and power.

Omegamon was not Super Ultimate. He was Mega.

Being an Ultimate doesn't make his appearances any less of the Deus Ex Machina I described for going beyond Ultimate.

And wouldn't a Mode Change be more "specialized form" than a straight power bonus? Imperialdramon's Dragon Mode has superior mobility, Fighter Mode has more raw power, and Paladin Mode is actually a Jogress with Omegamon, but basically trades Fighter Mode's ranged attacks for better melee ability and extra damage against Nightmare Soldiers/Dark Area/Virus Digimon?

Also, spitballing: Dark Digivolution and Ruin Mode... is the latter strictly the downside of Burst Mode as Rater presents it, or could a Tamer (theoretically) be built to take full advantage of them?

[Rater202]

Imperialdramon Fighter Mode is explicitly ten times more powerful than base Imperialdramon, and nothingindicate tat it's slower. It's basically just a straight up power boost.

Paladinmode has no ranged attacks, but it's significantly more powerful than Fighter Mode and at the speeds it moves...

Ruin Mode... I figure if you don't mind your Digimon dying immediately afterward and thus being useless as it reconfigures, it could be uses as some Dangerous Forbidden Technique.

What power Scale are we going for? I mean, Digimon are essentially living weapons of mass destruction, and there are Ultimate Digimon that literally use nuclear missiles in their attacks. If we go on a strictly canon power progression, power creeps gonna be a factor.

[Blackhawk748]

Being an Ultimate doesn't make his appearances any less of the Deus Ex Machina I described for going beyond Ultimate.

And wouldn't a Mode Change be more "specialized form" than a straight power bonus? Imperialdramon's Dragon Mode has superior mobility, Fighter Mode has more raw power, and Paladin Mode is actually a Jogress with Omegamon, but basically trades Fighter Mode's ranged attacks for better melee ability and extra damage against Nightmare Soldiers/Dark Area/Virus Digimon?

Also, spitballing: Dark Digivolution and Ruin Mode... is the latter strictly the downside of Burst Mode as Rater presents it, or could a Tamer (theoretically) be built to take full advantage of them?

I dont know a ton about Ruin mode, but from what i read it seems like its own form, you just use dark energy to make that happen.

Dark Digivolution, is odd. Honestly i see it as more of an NPC thing, though im sure we could find a way to make it usable by PCs.

[vasharanpaladin]

Imperialdramon Fighter Mode is explicitly ten times more powerful than base Imperialdramon, and nothingindicate tat it's slower. It's basically just a straight up power boost.

Paladinmode has no ranged attacks, but it's significantly more powerful than Fighter Mode and at the speeds it moves...

File this under "annoys the crap out of me," then, because straight power boost with no drawback should mean fething evolution. :smallannoyed:



Ruin Mode... I figure if you don't mind your Digimon dying immediately afterward and thus being useless as it reconfigures, it could be uses as some Dangerous Forbidden Technique.

Yeah, I was thinking mostly in terms of enemy Tamers possibly using it...



What power Scale are we going for? I mean, Digimon are essentially living weapons of mass destruction, and there are Ultimate Digimon that literally use nuclear missiles in their attacks. If we go on a strictly canon power progression, power creeps gonna be a factor.

Replace "literally" with "said to." We are discussing creatures whose primary witnesses are children, hyperbole could be a factor...

[Shadowz1797]

While making the system familiar and largely following the rules already put forth in the Digimon universe, there are definitely some gray areas we'll have to change in order to keep this a fun rp game instead of just monotonous "aquire new digivolution, always use new digivolution".

With the imperialdramon example, I think we do have to give these different forms specific pros or cons as with all forms, because otherwise as mentioned earlier it just becomes the same combat experience over and over and over.

As for families, they would be great providers of these innate abilities, again this is trying to draw features we can that make Digimon unique, and players something a little different to build off of. After that nice translating from Rater I'm fine with using the Japanese names, and within the core book we can always include a section of these translations for reference and clarification.

[Rater202]

Skull Greymon's attack, Dark Shot, was called Ground Zero in the original japanese, and it certainly looks like a low yield nuclear weapon when he uses it to destroy the control spire when Tai' partner breaks from Ken's control after Dark Digivolving.

the lack of fallout could just be the result of it not being programed into the data for the attack.

and Mode Changeing does sometimes result in moving to higer level, but usulally it doen't. That's why I suggested having the various methods of advancing beyond mega be mutually exclusive. Mode Changing only rarely results in new attacks, so I think that' why it's not a strict evolution

On Ruin Mode, like Dark Digivolving, it kind of also tends to make the Digimon go berserk, so that's an issue too.

I sort of see it as a "massive power boost that tends to not be very practicle" and I think a partner who repeatedly forces their Digimon into Ruin Mode would have to be a major jackass-that's gotta count as abuse unless the digimon partner is already nuts. Intentionally going into ruin mode should definitely be a bad guy only power

[vasharanpaladin]

Skull Greymon's attack, Dark Shot, was called Ground Zero in the original japanese, and it certainly looks like a low yield nuclear weapon when he uses it to destroy the control spire when Tai' partner breaks from Ken's control after Dark Digivolving.

the lack of fallout could just be the result of it not being programed into the data for the attack.

Or because it's actually a non-nuclear weapon, remember Japan doesn't like dropping references to nukes in its media. Blast radius is also a bit small. Even with the lack of fallout probably being a bug in programming, it's more likely hyperbole than SkullGreymon actually using dirty bombs.



and Mode Changeing does sometimes result in moving to higer level, but usulally it doen't. That's why I suggested having the various methods of advancing beyond mega be mutually exclusive. Mode Changing only rarely results in new attacks, so I think that' why it's not a strict evolution

Right, good point. Problem is that if there's a thing in the books that will enable a player to become distinctly more powerful, it becomes "mandatory" to use that thing. This is why I've locked beyond-Ultimate evolutions (yes, including Jogress between two Ultimate-level Digimon) behind the GM side of the screen in my brainstorming of potential penalties. Ultimate is more than enough power and, again, "ultimate" means "final."



On Ruin Mode, like Dark Digivolving, it kind of also tends to make the Digimon go berserk, so that's an issue too.

I sort of see it as a "massive power boost that tends to not be very practicle" and I think a partner who repeatedly forces their Digimon into Ruin Mode would have to be a major jackass-that's gotta count as abuse unless the digimon partner is already nuts. Intentionally going into ruin mode should definitely be a bad guy only power

Digimon Emperor, then? If NPC tamers are to be built the same way as PC ones, then, make sure talents related to Dark Digivolution and/or Ruin Mode are only mentioned in GM-only chapters. PTU ran into this issue with the Lasher (or at least, my group did), and while it is possible to create one more in line with the idea of high-risk endurance training, it's not the first thing that comes to mind.

...Note, incidentally, that this me who advocates Dark Is Not Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil) nigh on every chance I get, but I'm thinking even my "dark" characters would settle for taming a Devimon rather than deliberately beating it into a rage...

[Rater202]

On the Dark is Not Evil thing, I personally am Quite partial to the "BlackAgumon-BlackGreymon-SkullGreymon-Machinedramon-Chaosdramon(if Post Megas are permitted)" as a partner and evolutionary path. I also partnered an alternate Dimension Version of Sweetie Belle with a Lucemon in a crossover Roleplay.

And what else would "Ground Zero" be a reference two if not a nuclear weapon? also note that it was never used in the real world. Everything in the Digital World is made of Data, and Data can't get radiation poisoning.

[vasharanpaladin]

On the Dark is Not Evil thing, I personally am Quite partial to the "BlackAgumon-BlackGreymon-SkullGreymon-Machinedramon-Chaosdramon(if Post Megas are permitted)" as a partner and evolutionary path. I also partnered an alternate Dimension Version of Sweetie Belle with a Lucemon in a crossover Roleplay.

Heh, I did Tsukaimon->Devimon->NeoDevimon->Daemon or Keramon's line~



And what else would "Ground Zero" be a reference two if not a nuclear weapon? also note that it was never used in the real world. Everything in the Digital World is made of Data, and Data can't get radiation poisoning.

"Ground Zero" refers to the epicenter of any major disaster, especially bombings.

[Shadowz1797]

Roll20 account located btw, so we can use that for playtesting in the future.

[Blackhawk748]

I personally am Quite partial to the "BlackAgumon-BlackGreymon-SkullGreymon-Machinedramon-Chaosdramon(if Post Megas are permitted)" as a partner and evolutionary path.

Well that just means your Agumon is a Virus instead of Vaccine. I think the problem Tai had was his Agumon was Vaccine so it shouldnt have been a Skullgreymon.

Honestly the "Black" Digimon doesnt quite mean Dark Digivolution, as Black Wargreymon turned around at the end and wasnt a homicidal maniac. I think Dark Digivolution should be an NPC exclusive thing, but PCs shouldnt be banned from using Black or Dark Digimon as they arent necessarily evil, just usually more violent.

Honestly i just realized that most of the Dark or Black Digimon are virus types, which are generally more violent than Vaccine or Data types. I feel we need to do something with this.

Edit: Interestingly according to the Wiki BlackGreymon doesnt Digivolve into Skullgreymon, thats DarkTryanomon. Though it fits thematically.

[vasharanpaladin]

Honestly i just realized that most of the Dark or Black Digimon are virus types, which are generally more violent than Vaccine or Data types. I feel we need to do something with this.


Really, the attribute types are basically Rock-Paper-Scissors. Vaccine Digimon are supposedly strong against Virus ones, and Virus against Data, while Data ones are simply stronger overall. At least, that seemed the case in the Digi-Battle Card Game (am I that old?), anyway...

Agumon is normally a Vaccine attribute, but has a black colored Virus alt. Guilmon is normally Virus attribute, but has an orange-colored Data alt (and a black-colored version, also Virus attribute). Renamon is normally Data attribute, but has a silver-colored Vaccine version.

[Rater202]

Dark Shot/Ground Zero certainly looks like a Nuke (http://youtu.be/7QJ8bkBr7G0?t=1m11s). The onlything missing is a musroom cloud, and that could be justified by it being an exceptionally low yield weapon.

Re. Virus: Guilmon and Wormmon are both Virus Types.

Guilmon's true mega, Gallantmon, is even a Holy Warrior Type

I've seen Vaccine-Data-Virus as less Good-Neutral-Evil and more Law-Neutral-Chaos

[Blackhawk748]

Dark Shot/Ground Zero certainly looks like a Nuke (http://youtu.be/7QJ8bkBr7G0?t=1m11s). The onlything missing is a musroom cloud, and that could be justified by it being an exceptionally low yield weapon.

Re. Virus: Guilmon and Wormmon are both Virus Types.

Guilmon's true mega, Gallantmon, is even a Holy Warrior Type

I've seen Vaccine-Data-Virus as less Good-Neutral-Evil and more Law-Neutral-Chaos

Ya, Dark Shot is at minimum a high yield missile. That is a big boom.

I do remember that. Honestly ive never really seen Virus as Evil, its just most of the bad guys happened to be Virus types. The Law-Neutral-Chaos analogy seems like a good example.

[vasharanpaladin]

Dark Shot/Ground Zero certainly looks like a Nuke (http://youtu.be/7QJ8bkBr7G0?t=1m11s). The onlything missing is a musroom cloud, and that could be justified by it being an exceptionally low yield weapon.

Re. Virus: Guilmon and Wormmon are both Virus Types.

Guilmon's true mega, Gallantmon, is even a Holy Warrior Type

I've seen Vaccine-Data-Virus as less Good-Neutral-Evil and more Law-Neutral-Chaos

...Mozilla's acting up with regards to YouTube, so I think I'll take your word for it.

Agreed on the Virus=Chaos analogy, tho.

[Blackhawk748]

...Mozilla's acting up with regards to YouTube, so I think I'll take your word for it.

Agreed on the Virus=Chaos analogy, tho.

Im watching Digimons tamers for.......research....ya.... research. And if Guilmon is indicative of other Virus types they are very, very, Chaotic, and now that i think of it they kinda are. Ogremon was pretty Chaotic and Demidevimon was a mustache twirling prankster

[Shadowz1797]

Im watching Digimons tamers for.......research....ya.... research. And if Guilmon is indicative of other Virus types they are very, very, Chaotic, and now that i think of it they kinda are. Ogremon was pretty Chaotic and Demidevimon was a mustache twirling prankster

Tamers is my soul food. So frickin great.

[vasharanpaladin]

Im watching Digimons tamers for.......research....ya.... research. And if Guilmon is indicative of other Virus types they are very, very, Chaotic, and now that i think of it they kinda are. Ogremon was pretty Chaotic and Demidevimon was a mustache twirling prankster

The flaws I see in the analogy come more from Devimon, Vamdemon and IceDevimon (Tamers), to name a few. At least when going by D&D's alignment descriptions, they seem to be much more Law-aligned, or Neutral at the least. Cherubimon (Frontier) at least seems more like a particularly spiteful child throwing a tantrum, so it fits him better...

[Rater202]

Consider that Cherubimon entered his Vice mode under the influence of Lucemon, and the Lucemon from Frontier himself was essentially a very spoiled child...

Just say that rather than be strict "always X", Digimon of a certain attribute are prone to act in certain ways but can act differently.

A lot of the corrupted digimon, like Devimon, could be rationalized as being Virus because really, whens the last time you've seen a program be corrupted by nonviral data?

I've conjectured before, based on various ays Deimon can come about, that Devimon can digivolve Naturally, but can also be the result of an Angemon falling from grace and accepting Evil-Natural Devimon usually follow the chaotic behavior that most virus attributes follow but former Angemon are more Lawful Evil in nature becuase they wre lawful good before embracing evil.

[Blackhawk748]

Tamers is my soul food. So frickin great.

Watched several episodes of Digimon Fusion (read Xros Wars) originally as actual research for this, honestly its not to bad, though im not sure if we could properly employ DigiFusion into the game. Something to work on at least.

Interestingly im starting to realize that Digimon Tamers and Digimon Adventure have serious differences in style, as in Tamers (at least early on) they stay at Rookie/Child and upgrade, whereas in Digimon Adventure they generally Digivolve to upgrade.


The flaws I see in the analogy come more from Devimon, Vamdemon and IceDevimon (Tamers), to name a few. At least when going by D&D's alignment descriptions, they seem to be much more Law-aligned, or Neutral at the least. Cherubimon (Frontier) at least seems more like a particularly spiteful child throwing a tantrum, so it fits him better...

Is this because of the whole planning thing? Because Chaotic beings can plan, theres just a lot less detail to the plan, its more of a goal + basic framework to achieve said goal. Also Vamdemon doesnt really seem to have any rules that he follows, he seems quite willing to do just about anything to achieve his goals. Thats just me though.

[vasharanpaladin]

Is this because of the whole planning thing? Because Chaotic beings can plan, theres just a lot less detail to the plan, its more of a goal + basic framework to achieve said goal. Also Vamdemon doesnt really seem to have any rules that he follows, he seems quite willing to do just about anything to achieve his goals. Thats just me though.

Again, Neutral is the least here. Vamdemon's out for his own interests, Devimon and IceDevimon (Tamers) had long-term goals. VenomVamdemon pitches into CE territory, though.

So, my thoughts are starting toward this: Vaccine-Data-Virus would be more like a third axis, than truly analogous to D&D's alignment chart. Reactive-Proactive, I would say?

[Rater202]

Xros Wars kinda goes down hill in the last arc, new writers, new antagonist, new main character who comes out of no where and is a bit suish.

really, the only part of the third Arc(Brave Young Hunters Leaping Through Time) is these six minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmlwsj0niSk). I don't care that it makes no sense, it's awesome.

Not sure how to balance Xros Wars as an Archetype... Maybe the Xrosser could be split into a "General" Archetyp who has a bunch of week Digimon he can combine and a Hunter Archetype that has a small number of Partners and can only combine two at a time, but eventually the primary partner can learn Hyper Evolution and advance to it's ultimate form..

So, for Talents, we've got Geral Human Talents, Talents by Archetype, and talents by specialty. And Digimon have general talents and talents by family.

Is this pulling from the same set of XP or are the Human and Digimon earning XP separately? And how does this Balance for Hybrids?.

Never got feed back on that Ranked Point buy system I proposed.

[Shadowz1797]

Again, Neutral is the least here. Vamdemon's out for his own interests, Devimon and IceDevimon (Tamers) had long-term goals. VenomVamdemon pitches into CE territory, though.

So, my thoughts are starting toward this: Vaccine-Data-Virus would be more like a third axis, than truly analogous to D&D's alignment chart. Reactive-Proactive, I would say?

I agree with vasharan as trying to make clear cut parallels to D&D alignment will most likely leave us with some weird cases. Like betamon who is one of the tamers partners in Adventure 02.

[Shadowz1797]

Not sure how to balance Xros Wars as an Archetype... Maybe the Xrosser could be split into a "General" Archetyp who has a bunch of week Digimon he can combine and a Hunter Archetype that has a small number of Partners and can only combine two at a time, but eventually the primary partner can learn Hyper Evolution and advance to it's ultimate form.

I thought we were doing these different archetypes by season as completely separate domains other than core rules, and were not expecting too much intermingling between types. I could be wrong, you guys will let me know.


So, for Talents, we've got Geral Human Talents, Talents by Archetype, and talents by specialty. And Digimon have general talents and talents by family.
sounds about right, Digimon have specialized talent trees as well correct (support, damage, defense, etc.)?


Is this pulling from the same set of XP or are the Human and Digimon earning XP separately? And how does this Balance for Hybrids?.
they might not level together 1:1 but i think the scale should probably be pretty much a set ratio of experience.

[vasharanpaladin]

Xros Wars kinda goes down hill in the last arc, new writers, new antagonist, new main character who comes out of no where and is a bit suish.

really, the only part of the third Arc(Brave Young Hunters Leaping Through Time) is these six minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmlwsj0niSk). I don't care that it makes no sense, it's awesome.

Not sure how to balance Xros Wars as an Archetype... Maybe the Xrosser could be split into a "General" Archetyp who has a bunch of week Digimon he can combine and a Hunter Archetype that has a small number of Partners and can only combine two at a time, but eventually the primary partner can learn Hyper Evolution and advance to it's ultimate form..

So, for Talents, we've got Geral Human Talents, Talents by Archetype, and talents by specialty. And Digimon have general talents and talents by family.

Is this pulling from the same set of XP or are the Human and Digimon earning XP separately? And how does this Balance for Hybrids?.

PTU has two experience pools. Pokémon gain EXP as they battle, gaining Tutor Points that they can spend on Poké Edges or on moves or abilities outside their normal list. Trainers gain TXP for catching new Pokémon, advancing the plot or generally whenever the GM feels like it, and have a larger pool of edges and features to choose from.

My thought, then, would run to something similar.

Also, I'd add in talents by attribute for Digimon, if attributes are to hold any mechanical weight. Virus Digimon might tend toward aggro features, Vaccine Digimon toward drawing aggro and Data Digimon toward support or general self-buffs. Action, reaction, inertia.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Hybrids! PTU also has a splatbook called "The Blessed and The Damned" that focuses on Legendary Pokémon. In this splat is a series of feats called "Usurper" (it's not a class, but the feats are reliant on the basic Usurper feat) that is based around the idea of defeating a Legendary Pokémon and then becoming it. It uses the same EXP/TXP divide as any trainer does; your Pokémon form gains EXP for participating in battle, while your human form gains TXP for doing other things. The two sides track levels separately.



Never got feed back on that Ranked Point buy system I proposed.

Gimme a moment, I'll dig it back up~

EDIT: Ahhh, the W40RPG method. That one, I'm familiar with~

[Shadowz1797]

Also, I'd add in talents by attribute for Digimon, if attributes are to hold any mechanical weight. Virus Digimon might tend toward aggro features, Vaccine Digimon toward drawing aggro and Data Digimon toward support or general self-buffs. Action, reaction, inertia.

My only problem with this is cornering people into roles based on choosing their partner digimon. It's not like Pokemon where you can just catch another to do something different, so I'm just worried a game could get boring if pretty much all Agumons are building the same because they have all their eggs in one basket so to speak.

[Rater202]

I thought we were doing these different archetypes by season as completely separate domains other than core rules, and were not expecting too much intermingling between types. I could be wrong, you guys will let me know.
Well, I suggested one Archetype based on the Adventure and Adventure 02 Chosen Children, and the Hybrid Archetype I suggested was split between Hybrid Digimon from frontier and the Bio-Hybrids from Savers/Data Squad

Also, I'd add in talents by attribute for Digimon, if attributes are to hold any mechanical weight. Virus Digimon might tend toward aggro features, Vaccine Digimon toward drawing aggro and Data Digimon toward support or general self-buffs. Action, reaction, inertia. Makes sense, but I figure that certain Species should have talent trees unique to them-Wizardmon and his analogs can cast spells, and they're very varied even by individuals. Maybe a Wizardmon can select one from the Non General trees available to him and replace it with the "Magic Talent" tree?


EDIT: Forgot to mention Hybrids! PTU also has a splatbook called "The Blessed and The Damned" that focuses on Legendary Pokémon. In this splat is a series of feats called "Usurper" (it's not a class, but the feats are reliant on the basic Usurper feat) that is based around the idea of defeating a Legendary Pokémon and then becoming it. It uses the same EXP/TXP divide as any trainer does; your Pokémon form gains EXP for participating in battle, while your human form gains TXP for doing other things. The two sides track levels separately.
That works.



Gimme a moment, I'll dig it back up~

EDIT: Ahhh, the W40RPG method. That one, I'm familiar with~

Basically. Allows for infinite growth without making it too open ended, and stops people from spending points on their "Level up stat" at the exclusion of others just so they can get teh kewl powerz before anyone else.

So, I'm thinking that General Human Talents should be support skills and environment skills-Good at computers, knowledgeable about survival, do you know karate, that kind of thing, while the Archetype and Specialization specific human talents should be more about supporting the Digimon(though not exclusively-I imagine a Digimental wielder could pull off some cool tricks with their D-Terminal, and since the Legendary Warriors were tied to nature, having a bit of that even in human form would be appropriate.)

[Blackhawk748]

My only problem with this is cornering people into roles based on choosing their partner digimon. It's not like Pokemon where you can just catch another to do something different, so I'm just worried a game could get boring if pretty much all Agumons are building the same because they have all their eggs in one basket so to speak.

Well thats why there are several areas to pick from: General (which will have the bulk of the talents), Family (which are primarily thematic), and then Attribute (Which can be, Reactive, Active, Inertia). The thing is, is that most Digimon have more than one version of themselves. Heck im pretty sure there is a Virus, Vaccine, and Data Agumon, so its not to much of a stretch to have all Digimon have three versions, just change their color (which is usually what happens.)

Edit: Since we're tossing around WH40k RPG for skills, anyone can buy anything, its just cheaper if you have the "tag". So Gomamon could buy "Overwhelming Attack" (feel free to use that for something) which has the "Nightmare Soldier" family tag as well as the "Virus" attribute tag, whereas DemiDevimon would be able to get it cheaper as he has both "tags". Honestly this method would solve the majority of our problems.

[Rater202]

Worse case scenario, if you don' like the data/vaccine talents for your character but have your heart set on a species, you can paint it Black.(or grey. or Dark Blue) or hell, if the GM(Digi-Master?) won't let you make a vaccine version of your normally data or virus species, you can paint it White

...BlackAgumon is Black, but BlackGreymon is Blue, There is no BlackMetalGreymon but instead MetalGreymon(Virus) who is blue, and then we've got BlackWarGreymon.

[Blackhawk748]

Worse case scenario, if you don' like the data/vaccine talents for your character but have your heart set on a species, you can paint it Black.(or grey. or Dark Blue) or hell, if the GM(Digi-Master?) won't let you make a vaccine version of your normally data or virus species, you can paint it White

...BlackAgumon is Black, but BlackGreymon is Blue, There is no BlackMetalGreymon but instead MetalGreymon(Virus) who is blue, and then we've got BlackWarGreymon.

This is the new title for this RPG's GM.

[vasharanpaladin]

My only problem with this is cornering people into roles based on choosing their partner digimon. It's not like Pokemon where you can just catch another to do something different, so I'm just worried a game could get boring if pretty much all Agumons are building the same because they have all their eggs in one basket so to speak.

Easy fix: There are two sets of prerequisites. Virus Digimon, for example, are already inclined toward action, and thus have relaxed entry requirements for certain +aggro feats (i.e. acting earlier in the combat round, extra attacks, etc.) that Data or Vaccine Digimon would have to put more work toward getting.

Or, put another way, that Combat Reflexes talent normally requires 13 Agility to take, but Guilmon can take it anyway just because he's a Virus. Note that this should not be a complete override for all (or, indeed, any) talents; just easier prerequisites for the Digimon they're better suited for.

EDIT: Damn it, Blackhawk, where's the Like button...

[Rater202]

This is the new title for this RPG's GM.

Approval of suggestion is appreciated.

Should we maybe wait for Adventure Tri? It's sort of a tradition for anime seasons to introduce new Evolution Mechanics(Ultimate/Mega level was a plot twist in Adventure, 02 introduced Armor and Mode Change and codified Jogress, Tamers gave Biomerging, Frontier gives Slide Evolution and Hybrid Digimon, Savers/Data Squad introduces Burst Mode and Bio-Hybrids, and Xroswars/fusion introduces the concept of Digixros/digifusion. Tri is practically guaranteed to give something new, or codify something old)

[Almarck]

While I have no idea how complex we need the mechanics to be, I don't think it will be a big deal if we start now.

We're arguably still going to be working on it, play testing, having general interest in this that we'll still be working on it by the time that the new evolution mechanic is revealed. Even then, the evolution mechanic is probably not going to change too many things that we can't solve by just treating it as another "source book".

Seriously, there's how much expanded material we could conceivably stat out or use? While yes, the most basic mechanics themselves will probably be done in a few weeks (or even a week), populating it with stat blocks is going to take a while.

[Blackhawk748]

Approval of suggestion is appreciated.

Should we maybe wait for Adventure Tri? It's sort of a tradition for anime seasons to introduce new Evolution Mechanics(Ultimate/Mega level was a plot twist in Adventure, 02 introduced Armor and Mode Change and codified Jogress, Tamers gave Biomerging, Frontier gives Slide Evolution and Hybrid Digimon, Savers/Data Squad introduces Burst Mode and Bio-Hybrids, and Xroswars/fusion introduces the concept of Digixros/digifusion. Tri is practically guaranteed to give something new, or codify something old)

Well its scheduled for April, and while we may have a functional game by then i dont think it will be polished enough for a full scale release.

Worse case scenario we simply make a splat for it. (Ya not the best solution, but hey, lets hope they make something cool enough to dedicate a splat book to)

Edit: *in my best Lord Bale impression* NINJAAAAS

[vasharanpaladin]

Start working now, when Adventure Tri comes up we can see if there's anything worth poaching then.

That said, there are actually very few truly "new" concepts past Tamers: Hybrid Evolution is basically Biomerging, Slide Evolution is a cleaned-up Mode Change, Bio-Hybrids are another take on Hybrid Evolution/Biomerging, Burst Mode is a not-Digivolution similar to Digimentals, and DigiXros is a Jogress with one "material" taking precedence over the rest.

So, really, we only need basic evolution, Crest/Matrix Evolution, Jogress, Mega Evolution, Mode Change and Biomerging. Practically everything else is just reseasoning to taste.

[Shadowz1797]

We might as well start making these different archetypes and then adapt as tri comes out (super excited btw)

[Rater202]

Start working now, when Adventure Tri comes up we can see if there's anything worth poaching then.

That said, there are actually very few truly "new" concepts past Tamers: Hybrid Evolution is basically Biomerging, Slide Evolution is a cleaned-up Mode Change, Bio-Hybrids are another take on Hybrid Evolution/Biomerging, Burst Mode is a not-Digivolution similar to Digimentals, and DigiXros is a Jogress with one "material" taking precedence over the rest.

So, really, we only need basic evolution, Crest/Matrix Evolution, Jogress, Mega Evolution, Mode Change and Biomerging. Practically everything else is just reseasoning to taste.

I think you're over simplifying things. Hybrid Digimon are nothing like Biomerging, because there's no Digimon to fuse with, and it has it's own seperate levels, like Armor Digimon(All Armor Digimon are Armor Level, and Armor Level varies in power-Flamedramon is close to a Champion in power, while Raidramon is closer to Ultimate, and Magnamon is greater than U;timate and depending on continuity might even be full mega, but they're all listed as Armor Level. Agnimon, Vritamon, Aldamon, and KaiserGreymon are all listed as "Hybrid Level" but they're not equally strong.)

Slide Evolution is a case of a Digimon of one level transforming into an other Digimon of the Same LEvel-it was presented in frontier as one hybrid switching into another hybrid, but since then it';s been used for any Digimon of one level switching into a Digimon of the same level-DarkTyrannomon can become MetalTyrannomon and SkullGreymon. If SkullGreymon were to become MetalTyrannomon, then that would be slide evolving. It is nothing like mode change

Digimentals are not a "not-evolution" Armor Digivolving is still Digivolving, and it's nothing like Burst Mode, which is a Mode change that provides a massive Power Boost at the cost of being difficult to access and fatal if you screw it up.

And Biohybrids are not Bio-Merging as there is no partner Digimon, can lead to any level(The ones we saw had Armor Forms and Mega Forms), and is the result of some kind of complicated procedure that involves at least one surgery.

And the last time I checked, you couldn't Jogress more than two digimon together at once.

[Blackhawk748]

I think you're over simplifying things. Hybrid Digimon are nothing like Biomerging, because there's no Digimon to fuse with, and it has it's own seperate levels, like Armor Digimon(All Armor Digimon are Armor Level, and Armor Level varies in power-Flamedramon is close to a Champion in power, while Raidramon is closer to Ultimate, and Magnamon is greater than U;timate and depending on continuity might even be full mega, but they're all listed as Armor Level. Agnimon, Vritamon, Aldamon, and KaiserGreymon are all listed as "Hybrid Level" but they're not equally strong.)

Slide Evolution is a case of a Digimon of one level transforming into an other Digimon of the Same LEvel-it was presented in frontier as one hybrid switching into another hybrid, but since then it';s been used for any Digimon of one level switching into a Digimon of the same level-DarkTyrannomon can become MetalTyrannomon and SkullGreymon. If SkullGreymon were to become MetalTyrannomon, then that would be slide evolving. It is nothing like mode change

Digimentals are not a "not-evolution" Armor Digivolving is still Digivolving, and it's nothing like Burst Mode, which is a Mode change that provides a massive Power Boost at the cost of being difficult to access and fatal if you screw it up.

And Biohybrids are not Bio-Merging as there is no partner Digimon, can lead to any level(The ones we saw had Armor Forms and Mega Forms), and is the result of some kind of complicated procedure that involves at least one surgery.

And the last time I checked, you couldn't Jogress more than two digimon together at once.

While it may have been and oversimplification, from a mechanical aspect many of them will be quite similar to each other.

[Rater202]

The only ones that would be similar, mechanically, would be Hybrid Digimon an Biohybrids, and that's why I suggested them to be alternate aspects of the Same Archetype, and Burst Mode being Similar to a mode change or uper Ultimate, which is why I suggested that Mode Change, Burst Mode, Post Ultimate/Mega, and Super Ultimate be mutually Exclusive talents.

[Shadowz1797]

I do agree that burst mode should be treated more like a digivolution rather than a separate archetype

[Rater202]

I didn't suggest it being a separate archetype, so much as it being an alternate form of going beyond Mega(with Digisoul userrs having easiest access to it)

Like: Mode change-increase all stats by X amount and that's all you get

Post Mega-Gain small stat boost, like halfway what you'd get for evolving, and gain stronger attacks as evolution

Burst Mode-Gain massive stat boost and stronger attacks, as evolution, but form is difficult to maintain and can go wrong, resulting in destruction at power down.

super Ultimate-Full fledged Evolution and strongest "beyond mega" form, but hardest to obtain, being a few ranks higher than the others.

All forms are mutually Exclusive.

Post Megas could be folded into Super ultimate for simplicity, and I expect that Mode Changes that actually increase level or change attack patterns would just be refluffed something else(UlforceVedramon is the classic example, being a Super Ultimate when he's in Future Mode but a mega the rest of the time.)

[vasharanpaladin]

I think you're over simplifying things.

Keep It Simple, Stupid.

In point of fact, we need exactly three different mechanic sets for Digivolution: Basic (i.e. Child->Adult, simple rank-up evolution), Jogress (Digimon+Digimon=Stronger Digimon) and Biomerging (Human->Digimon). Full stop. Literally everything else is a modifier to one of these three formats.

Crest or Matrix Evolution is, quite literally, Basic Evolution + Outside Power Source = Stronger Digimon. Mega Evolution is, similarly, Perfect Digimon -> Ultimate Digimon. Digimental Evolution is Basic Evolution + Program Bypass = Not-Digivolution (do note the entire point was that it bypassed the Control Spires' lockdown on Digivolution).

If Biomerging is basic Human+Digimon=Stronger Digimon, then Hybrid Evolution is a talent that, when taken first thing, enables the Tamer to skip the Digimon requirement. Slide Evolution is, yes, what Mode Change should be; a Digimon changing into another Digimon of roughly equal level. File them both together, with the caveat that a "Mode Change" that strictly increases power level is in fact a Digivolution.

DigiXros is a multi-part Jogress, in which one Digimon retains influence over all others involved. It's an extension that modifies Jogress on the Digimon that uses it, not its own thing. Useful for a player with multiple Digimon partners (somehow) that wants to Jogress his own Digimon, without allowing him to break the action economy.

Burst Mode is in fact the same Not-Digivolution as Digimentals, at a higher level. You gain additional power, temporarily (hence "burst") without gaining level. This is an extension that modifies an Ultimate Digimon, probably allowing it to gain power akin to a Super Ultimate without actually allowing players to go Super Ultimate.

Oversimplifying? Yeah, probably. But this is a matter more complex than Pokémon's metamorphosis. When translating to the tabletop, you simplify everything you possibly can and go from there. Three basic Digivolution types, everything else is a modifying extension. Keep it simple.

[Almarck]

One important question that needs to be addressed.

Should it be possible to play just a digimon? I mean I know that alot of attention is put on the kids, but how about outside of that? Conversely, should we also allow mechanics for two players to form a team together with one acting as the tamer and the other as a digimon.

[vasharanpaladin]

One important question that needs to be addressed.

Should it be possible to play just a digimon? I mean I know that alot of attention is put on the kids, but how about outside of that? Conversely, should we also allow mechanics for two players to form a team together with one acting as the tamer and the other as a digimon.

Would that be along the lines of your average "Digimorphs" fic (i.e. child becomes Digimon), something that could be addressed with a Biomerge extension locking the fused form together indefinitely (played in a forum RP that was certainly meant to be this)? Or something like Digimon World 4 or the X-Evolution short film, in which there were no humans involved whatsoever?

One is much easier than the other, I would think. At least, in the current PTU-esque space of "human with Digimon form progresses both forms separately" that I'm operating in at the moment.

(I like this idea, actually.)

[Rater202]

It' still to much of an over simplicifaction.

And you're ignoring that Digimentals-the "Digieggs" from 02, is explicitly a type of Digivolution. Armor Digivolving is still Digivolving. You assume a more potent form with different attacks, and it is a level gained(Armor is listed as a level). Burst Mode is a massive Power Up, with new attacks, but the digimon doesn't change form. ShineGreymon Burst Mode is still ShineGreymon. Flamedramon is not Veemon. Se what I'm sayin?. IT's nowhere near the same thing.

Hybrid's are an Archetype. We've determined that That's the thing that makes their Archetype distinct. rolling it up into Biomerging removes an entire Archetype from the game and over coweds the "Tamer" Sub-Archetype-They have to be distinct for the purposes of variety.

Relatedly, folding Burst Mode into the same category as Armor Digivolving, in addition to making absolutely no sense, over croweds the Digimental Wielder Archetype.

Doing as you ask would take us from 3 distinct Archetypes with two progression paths each(for a total of six classes) to 2 archetypes, one of which would have a single progression path that's an obvious choice due to having a partner and being able to become a digimon and being able to biomerge and being able to Digimodify, and a second archetype that would have one progression path that no one would take due to it only giving you, essentially, just the strait Digivolution progression while the other gives you a strait progression+Armor Forms+Burtsmode+The usefulness of the D-Terminal.

Besides, why would we need different rules for Digivolving Crest(Super) Digivolving/Matrix Digivolving, and Mega Digivolving?n Just make a few talents that let you Digivolve to the next highest level available at an appropriate rank using the same mechanic for base digivolution.

The Biomerge Mechanic would be exclusive to the Tamer Path of the Seeker Archetype, add some of the tamers stats to the Stats of the Megaform, be mutually exclusive with The Mega Digivolution Talent for balance and redundancy reasons, since it's an auto mega form, and potentially permit certain appropriate Human Only forms to be used while combined(though only if the digimon body is appropriately shaped in the case of physical talents)

Hybrid Digimon have Hybrid Level forms that are the Equivelent of Adult(H-Spirit), Perfect(B-Spirit), Ultimate(Fusion Evolution) and much stronger Ultimate(Hyper Spirit Evolution), while Bio-Hybrids can have Armor and Mega forms, and presumably forms from other levels. Biomerging is automatically Ultimate regardless of level of the digimon before hand, so the Hybrid Archetype would have to be distinct from the Archetype that grants access to Biomenrge. Human side and Digimon side earn XP seperatly, but like the biomerged tamer might be able to use certain appropriate human talents in digimon form. Since Both types go from human strait to Digimon and don't digivolve from one digimon form to an other unless slide evolving, going from human to perfect/ultimate or equivalents should either require a talent or be draining on the human(somehow)

Slide Evolution would be something like, a Hybrid Digimon or Bio-Hybrid switching from one form to another without stopping back at human, or an ordinary Digimon getting a talent that gives them an Alternate form at one level and the ability to Switch Between the Two while already on that form.

Mode Changing is and always has been a strait power up. Cases like Lucemon or Ulforceveedramon can be refluffed digivolving. but for the most part it should be treated as something separate from evolution, a power up exclusive from post ultimate, super ultimate, or burst mode.

Lone Digimon should be it's own Archetype. I very much dislike the implications that anything that is not strict "Human partnered with Digimon" should be folded into Biomerge.

Actually, if we're gonna be using the Japanese terms, then we should be calling Biomerge "Matrix Evolution"

[Blackhawk748]

Ok ive got a basic combat outline, and i am ripping this bloody fisted from M&M. Now M&M has Power Levels, which serve as a cap for your Defense, To Hit, Damage, and Resistance. These can be over-come, but thats not important right now. Basically each Digimon rank has a max PL. Heres what ive got so far:

Baby/In-Training=1
Child/Rookie=2-5
Adult/Champion=6-10
Perfect/Ultimate=11-15
Ultimate/Mega=16-20

Now since we're using a Resistance roll system the save to resist is DC 10+ the atack's Damage Rating (DR). This should make fights a bit more fair for different lvl Digimon.

Also (and im assuming the Digimon will be in Child/Rookie mode the bulk of the time) the Digimon may have their base rating be above 5, they simply cant use the higher number until they Digivolve.

Ex. Agumon (with a +7 to Defense and To Hit) is fighting an Ogremon. He can only use +5 of his Defense and To Hit until he decides to Digivole into Greymon (Or Centarumon or Meramon etc) then he may use his full +7.

Thoughts?

Edit: Since ive only seen Adventure 1 and 2 (and im in the process of watching Tamers as well as Fusion (or Xross wars if you prefer)) im gonna leave the Digivolution discussion to the experts.

[vasharanpaladin]

...No, I think there's a key point missing from this communication. Let me see if I can find it.

We only need RULES for three basic types of Digivolution. AT ITS MOST BASIC FORM, Digivolution is one of Standard (Digimon->Digimon), Jogress (Digimon+Digimon) or Biomerge (Human->Digimon). Accept this, it will make sense later.

All other forms of Digivolution EXPAND UPON these three basic forms. To wit: Each of the basic forms has its set of rules. Each additional form CALLS UPON and MODIFIES those rules. To use one example, Hybrid Evolution. At its core, it is a Human->Digimon change, and thus calls upon the rules for Biomerge evolution.

Now, allow me to use a hypothetical here. HybridEvolve.EXE is an extension granted by the D-Tect model Digivice. This extension allows Takuya, who has "partnered" with a "Digimon" named Spirit of Fire, to Biomerge his partner in defiance of whatever rules Biomerging may have followed in a particular TV season into the Child-rank Digimon Flamon, the Adult-rank Agnimon, Perfect-rank Vritramon, or Ultimate-rank Aldamon, depending on the levels involved. He is thus no stronger than Takato (who chose to partner Guilmon with his D-Arc model), nor is he calling upon particularly arcane rules (using the same rules for Biomerging that anyone else would use, modified by his choice of Digivice).

Your Archetypes are still intact; I've only simplified the rules they call on.

[Shadowz1797]

Combat seems fine to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in M&M there are different stages when an attack actually lands for the target, like dazed-unconscious. If those are a thing are we using the same stages with slight mods?

[Blackhawk748]

Combat seems fine to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in M&M there are different stages when an attack actually lands for the target, like dazed-unconscious. If those are a thing are we using the same stages with slight mods?

More or less. 3e (which is what im using) has no limit on how many Bruised conditions you can have, they just get a cumulative -1 for each "Bruised" they have and you only get a "Bruised" when you fail the check by 1-4. You get dazed until your next turn when its 5-9 (one move or standard action), 10-14 is Staggered (half speed, with 1 move or standard) 15+ is your unconcious. Oh and all of these give a -1 on further Resistance checks. On a success nothing happens, you simply shrug off the attack.

Im gonna have to check M&Ms healing rates to see when these go away without powers.

[Rakaydos]

Out of curiosity, is Tamers's "Digi modify cards" a really weak form of Jogress or it's own thing?

[Blackhawk748]

Out of curiosity, is Tamers's "Digi modify cards" a really weak form of Jogress or it's own thing?

Actually i dont think we've quite figured out the specifics on that. Honestly i see them more as the specialized Support Path, as they are effectively super buff monkeys, at least until much later.

[vasharanpaladin]

Out of curiosity, is Tamers's "Digi modify cards" a really weak form of Jogress or it's own thing?

Once again simplifying where possible, no they are not a form of Jogress, which is strictly a basic Digivolution format.

If, as in my previous example, HybridEvolve.EXE is the primary extension of the D-Tect/"Bonder" archetype, then Modify.EXE is the core extension of the D-Arc/"Seeker" archetype. Basically, it allows the Tamer access to a suite of executable (read: not passive or "always on") programs that are normally Digimon-only, and overlay those programs on his Digimon. For example, Ruki could get hold of an Agumon card containing PepperBreath.EXE and, using her Modify.EXE extension, enable Renamon to use Pepper Breath.

This one might take more balancing, but is a basic gist, yes?

[Rater202]

Here' the problem. Biomerging is automatically a Mega Level effect.

You can't use the same rules for Biomerging as you can for Hybrid Digimon, because Hybrid Digimon have forms that are not megas

Hybrid Digimon also don't operate under the normal evolution mechanics. Takuya also wouldn't be partnered with a Hypothetical "Sprit of Fire" digimon, he'd be partnered with "Human Spirit of Fire" that is Agnimon, "Beast Spirit of Fire" that is Vritamon, combine them into "Aldamon" or combine them with four other Human Spirits and Four other Beast Spirits to get KaiserGreymon.

The Bio-Hybrids from Savers are also different-the ones we see have multiple Digimon forms,each one demonstrates one Armor Form and one Mega Form, these forms are altered from the base species, and are in no way connected to each other.

What we need are Rules for Normal Digivolution, Jogress Digivolution, Armor Digivolution, and Humans becoming Digimon.

Armor Digivolutions come from Rookies only and armor forms are classified as "Armor" levels, which can be equivocal to adult, perfect, and ultimate level depending on the digimental used to digivolve into that form. Officially there is no limit on how many Digimentals one can use, but I suggest limiting it to one champion equivalent form, one ultimate equivalent form, and one "Golden Digimental" that is mega equivalent. You have to convince the Digi-Master to let you find your Digimental, and you can't take the talent for that Armor Form until you're a high enough level to unlock a normal evolution of that level, and the Golden Armor form doesn't last long due to burning energy like you wouldn't believe. To balance this versatility, The Sub Archetype's with access to Armor Forms has the slowest rate of unlocking higher levels. Bio-Hybrids wit Armor forms instead use normal Human to Digimon rules.

Humans becoming Digimon depends either finding the spirit/outside power source needed to use that form and having the talent to assume forms of that level, or having unlocked forms of that level and having the down time to upload the data of the form, depending on Hybrid Digimon or Biohybrid.

Seeing as how Takuya only became Flamon in that one episode, that might have been a fluke. Rookie/Equivalent forms shouldn't be a built in part of the Hybrid Archetype-maybe an option. week digimon form the human can stay in indefinitely, as opposed to champion or higher forms that have time limits or cool downs.

I figure Bio-Hybrids should get one, and only one, Armor form.

Biomerge(Or Matrix Evolution) would be a Tamers Exclusive Alternate to the Mega Talent, Mode Change would be in the "Post Mega" section with it's own rules, and Slide Evolution would be an optional talent for alternate forms of certain levels.

[Rakaydos]

Actually i dont think we've quite figured out the specifics on that. Honestly i see them more as the specialized Support Path, as they are effectively super buff monkeys, at least until much later.

They're buffs, sure, but aside from the plain stat-up cards, it seems as if certian crds can give aspects of another digimon to the tamer's partner. Given the terms used upthread, I thought that might mechanically be digi+digi

[Rater202]

You're a bit confused on what the argument is about.

Conflating Biomerge with Bio-Hybrids and Hybrid Digimon, and Conflating Burst Mode with Armor Digivolution and then claiming that Armor Digivolution is not evolution.

[Rakaydos]

Here' the problem. Biomerging is automatically a Mega Level effect.

You can't use the same rules for Biomerging as you can for Hybrid Digimon, because Hybrid Digimon have forms that are not megas

Hybrid Digimon also don't operate under the normal evolution mechanics. Takuya also wouldn't be partnered with a Hypothetical "Sprit of Fire" digimon, he'd be partnered with "Human Spirit of Fire" that is Agnimon, "Beast Spirit of Fire" that is Vritamon, combine them into "Aldamon" or combine them with four other Human Spirits and Four other Beast Spirits to get KaiserGreymon.

The Bio-Hybrids from Savers are also different-the ones we see have multiple Digimon forms,each one demonstrates one Armor Form and one Mega Form, these forms are altered from the base species, and are in no way connected to each other.

What we need are Rules for Normal Digivolution, Jogress Digivolution, Armor Digivolution, and Humans becoming Digimon.

Armor Digivolutions come from Rookies only and armor forms are classified as "Armor" levels, which can be equivocal to adult, perfect, and ultimate level depending on the digimental used to digivolve into that form. Officially there is no limit on how many Digimentals one can use, but I suggest limiting it to one champion equivalent form, one ultimate equivalent form, and one "Golden Digimental" that is mega equivalent. You have to convince the Digi-Master to let you find your Digimental, and you can't take the talent for that Armor Form until you're a high enough level to unlock a normal evolution of that level, and the Golden Armor form doesn't last long due to burning energy like you wouldn't believe. To balance this versatility, The Sub Archetype's with access to Armor Forms has the slowest rate of unlocking higher levels. Bio-Hybrids wit Armor forms instead use normal Human to Digimon rules.

Humans becoming Digimon depends either finding the spirit/outside power source needed to use that form and having the talent to assume forms of that level, or having unlocked forms of that level and having the down time to upload the data of the form, depding on Hybrid Digimon or Biohybrid.

Seeing as how Takuya only became Flamon in that one episode, that might have been a fluke. Rookie/Equivelent forms shouldn't be a built in part of the Hybrid Archetype-maybe an option. week digimon form the human can stay in indefinitly, as opposed to champion or higher forms that have time limits or cool downs.

So, Biomerge is a Human+(aspect: Digimon) that is granted at high XP to generate a Mega form.
Hybrid is Human + (Aspect: Spirit) that is granted at any XP value.
I'm not seeing why we cant share a mechanical framework between these tw, despite the differences. A Wizard has to learn spells and memorize them, where a sorcerer can choose what he can cast when he casts it, but they both use the "Spellcasting" subsystem, not the Invocation, Truenaming, or Martial Stances systems.

[Rater202]

Because the Human is merging with his partner at high level to Biomerge, and this always results in a Megaform.

Hybrid Digimon result from a Human combining with the non sentient data of a Digimon, while Bio-Hybrids are literal Hybrids of Human DNA and Digimon Data.

so to use your example, Biomerging is more like a Psion Using that Fusion Power to combine himself with a Monster, while a Hybrid is more like a Synthesis archetype summoner from Pathfinder-he doesn't have an Eidolon because he is his Eidolon

[Almarck]

I see what Rater is saying and I agree. Hybrid digimon don't follow traditional mechanics.

They could use biomerge as a basis, but the mechanics are more akin to something out of Majora's mask. How do you propose we handle it? Treat hybrid as a "modifier" to all other evolution types, in that no partner is involved?

[Rakaydos]

Considering I'm also sugggesting Digi-modify cards to be a weak form of Digimon+Digimon (things like Renamon getting armored fists from a card, and the like) I'm still seeing an equal amount of similarities between Hybrids and Biomerge.

When a tamer biomerges with a digimon, he also merges with that digimon's data. But because there's also a living digimon involved, there's certian bonuses, and all cannon examples result in Mega forms.
Hybrids merge with a weaker, data only form, and lack the bonuses of a full digimon biomerge.

[Rakaydos]

Out of curiosity, what would happen if a hybrid digimon attempted to Jogress-evolve with another digimon? I would think the result would ber a resembelance to biomerging.

[Rater202]

Digimodify wouldn't be Jogress or Biomerge, and as it's not a form of Evolution, t wouldn't use the same mechanics

A Hybrid Digimon Jogressing with a normal Digimon would be the same as a Normal Jogress. No reason why it wouldn't-cept for the "certain human talents get used in Digimon form" if appropriate body type.

True Hybrid Digimon would be restricted to Jogressing with a Digimon whose level is equivalent to their Hybrid Level, while Bio-Hybrids follow the normal levels and can jogress with those levels.

[Oazard]

Out of curiosity, what would happen if a hybrid digimon attempted to Jogress-evolve with another digimon? I would think the result would ber a resembelance to biomerging.

It lets the Hybrid Digimon to reach its next Evolution stage (For example, Agnimon + any Adult Digimon -> Vritramon), but I'm using these wiki pages as my source: Vritramon (http://wikimon.net/Vritramon) and Agnimon (http://wikimon.net/Agnimon)

Oh and I'm lurking this thread because I found this projetc really interesting. :smallredface:

EDIT: Rater was faster than me.

[vasharanpaladin]

Here' the problem. Biomerging is automatically a Mega Level effect.


And you're ignoring what I'm saying just to prove me wrong.

Here's how it works. Standard Digivolution works one way. Jogress Evolution works another way. And Biomerge works a third way. There are no other sets of rules for Digivolution, it will ALWAYS call on one of these object classes.

If, as you say, Biomerge only allows for evolution into the Ultimate form, there is no problem with having Hybrid Evolution call on it. Why?

Because HybridEvolve.EXE creates an exception. Hybrid Evolution involves a human becoming a Digimon and thus follows the rules for Biomerging. Biomerging requires you to join with a flesh-and-blood partner Digimon to become an Ultimate Digimon? HybridEvolve.EXE says no, you're Biomerging with MY requirements. Takato can't use Biomerge.EXE without the requirement of a level minimum-for-Ultimate-rank Digimon that has access to its Perfect form; Takuya can use HybridEvolve.EXE with a disembodied AncientGreymon from the get-go, the only other hotfix being that he will be locked to the same power ranking as the rest of the party. So yes, he Biomerges with the Spirit of Fire and becomes Flamon, if he's not at a high enough level for Agnimon.

Are you seeing the problem here? When you are translating a system to the tabletop, you must be prepared to make concessions. In this case, no, Takuya never became Flamon voluntarily, nor did he do it more than once, nor did he have to become Flamon before becoming Agnimon. And it didn't matter, because 1) he was in a TV show, where trivial things like "party balance" is moot because there's only one person controlling all the characters, and 2) he was in a party comprised of nothing but the same archetype.

If this archetype is to be included in a tabletop game where other archetypes may be present, it must be brought to heel at the same level. If that means it must be forced to follow the same rules as everyone else, if that means Takuya must Hybrid Evolve to Flamon at the start of the game, then it will be so.

[Rakaydos]

Digimodify wouldn't be Jogress or Biomerge, and as it's not a form of Evolution, t wouldn't use the same mechanics
Why not? Why much evolution mechanics be "special?"

[Rakaydos]

And you're ignoring what I'm saying just to prove me wrong.

Here's how it works. Standard Digivolution works one way. Jogress Evolution works another way. And Biomerge works a third way. There are no other sets of rules for Digivolution, it will ALWAYS call on one of these object classes.

If, as you say, Biomerge only allows for evolution into the Ultimate form, there is no problem with having Hybrid Evolution call on it. Why?

Because HybridEvolve.EXE creates an exception. Hybrid Evolution involves a human becoming a Digimon and thus follows the rules for Biomerging. Biomerging requires you to join with a flesh-and-blood partner Digimon to become an Ultimate Digimon? HybridEvolve.EXE says no, you're Biomerging with MY requirements. Takato can't use Biomerge.EXE without the requirement of a level minimum-for-Ultimate-rank Digimon that has access to its Perfect form; Takuya can use HybridEvolve.EXE with a disembodied AncientGreymon from the get-go, the only other hotfix being that he will be locked to the same power ranking as the rest of the party. So yes, he Biomerges with the Spirit of Fire and becomes Flamon, if he's not at a high enough level for Agnimon.

Are you seeing the problem here? When you are translating a system to the tabletop, you must be prepared to make concessions. In this case, no, Takuya never became Flamon voluntarily, nor did he do it more than once, nor did he have to become Flamon before becoming Agnimon. And it didn't matter, because 1) he was in a TV show, where trivial things like "party balance" is moot because there's only one person controlling all the characters, and 2) he was in a party comprised of nothing but the same archetype.

If this archetype is to be included in a tabletop game where other archetypes may be present, it must be brought to heel at the same level. If that means it must be forced to follow the same rules as everyone else, if that means Takuya must Hybrid Evolve to Flamon at the start of the game, then it will be so.

I'd actually take a step back, and have Biomerge, Hybrid Evolve, AND Jogress all call on a single "Merge Data" mechanic, and layer each one's special rules on top of it.

[Almarck]

I'd actually take a step back, and have Biomerge, Hybrid Evolve, AND Jogress all call on a single "Merge Data" mechanic, and layer each one's special rules on top of it.

That might be the simplest manner. We could also add in the rules for "poaching" data from slain digimon into the frame work while we're at it.

So we'd have standard, linear evolution and mode changes, with the caveat that it's all within a single digimon that's moving in whatever which way.

Then we'd have "comboing" which covers every other form of evolution where outside data is added to the base.

[Rater202]

You're ignoring Bio-hybrids, who have forms that are not related to each other, and it makes significantly more sense for Bio-Merging to be an Exception to the normal Ultimate Level mechanics that it does to twist Hybrid Digimon uinto something that fits the biomerge mold.

It makes significantly more sense, for the splat that has "Human turns into Digimon" as it's shtick and that does not follow the normal level system to have it's own unique evolution mechanic that it does for the splat that follows the normal evolution path and normal levels up until you get to the ultimate level where you do it different.

Biomerge should be the exception to the normal Digivolution Rules.

Spirit Evolution and Bi-Hybrid Digivolution should have their own separate system from those rules.

Folding Hybrid Digimon and Bio-Hybrids into the Biomerge rules makes no sense from a lore perspective or from the perspective of looking at it from the Archetypes.

so, the Things we need hard rules for are "Normal Digivolution, Jogress Digivolution, Armor Forms for the Digimental Wielders and Bio-Hybrids, and a "Human turns into Digimon" system form spirit Wielders and Bio-Hybrids.


No, no, no, no, we can't fold Humans tuning into Digimon, Human combine with Digimon, and Two Digiumon combine into the same system, especially when one of those is restricted toa single achetype and one of them is restricted to a single progression path of a single archetype, while the third is a universal thing.

A Human combining with a Digimon should be mechanically diferant from two digimon combining, and since its someitnh only one "class" can do, it can be an exception.

Since humans becoming a Digimon is the main stcik of the "Merger Achetype" with two diferant progression paths that do so in slightly diferant ways, it should have it;s own mechanic.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'd actually take a step back, and have Biomerge, Hybrid Evolve, AND Jogress all call on a single "Merge Data" mechanic, and layer each one's special rules on top of it.

...Well, now, that's even better. But the problem is that the Tamer is not a Digimon, so having Biomerge that similar to a Jogress would be a bit... problematic, wouldn't it?

In my mind, at least, the difference was that Jogress took two players' Digimon and fused them together into one, that would get the power boost inherent to moving up a rank (less raw power than now getting to act twice per round), balanced out by it being easier to bring down one target than two (DigiXros extension allowing for a player to Jogress exclusively his own Digimon for a straight power boost, but not getting an extra turn of actions due to not having codominant partners).

While Biomerge gives a straight power boost and has the dual identity of Human and Digimon if such tags are called on by other effects, getting to act on both the Tamer round (purely mental) and the Digimon round (actual fighting). Hybrid Evolution, then, would cut out the second turn in exchange for enabling the Biomerge at all ranks (because the "Digimon" doesn't actually exist in this case; writing down "Flamon" in your partner area would be a placeholder).

...And before anything is said, yes, I have Digimentals calling on Standard rules for this. My conceit to complexity is that I vastly prefer groups of three...

[Rakaydos]

No, no, no, no, we can't fold Humans tuning into Digimon, Human combine with Digimon, and Two Digiumon combine into the same system, especially when one of those is restricted toa single achetype and one of them is restricted to a single progression path of a single archetype, while the third is a universal thing.

A Human combining with a Digimon should be mechanically diferant from two digimon combining, and since its someitnh only one "class" can do, it can be an exception.

Since humans becoming a Digimon is the main stcik of the "Merger Achetype" with two diferant progression paths that do so in slightly diferant ways, it should have it;s own mechanic.

Again, why? Just because Wizard and cleric are different architypes, doesnt mean they can both use spells. Jst because a paladin hits things with a sword, doesnt mean he cant also use spells.

[vasharanpaladin]

You're ignoring Bio-hybrids, who have forms that are not related to each other, and it makes significantly more sense for Bio-Merging to be an Exception to the normal Ultimate Level mechanics that it does to twist Hybrid Digimon uinto something that fits the biomerge mold.

It makes significantly more sense, for the splat that has "Human turns into Digimon" as it's shtick and that does not follow the normal level system to have it's own unique evolution mechanic that it does for the splat that follows the normal evolution path and normal levels up until you get to the ultimate level where you do it different.

Biomerge should be the exception to the normal Digivolution Rules.

Spirit Evolution and Bi-Hybrid Digivolution should have their own separate system from those rules.

Folding Hybrid Digimon and Bio-Hybrids into the Biomerge rules makes no sense from a lore perspective or from the perspective of looking at it from the Archetypes.

so, the Things we need hard rules for are "Normal Digivolution, Jogress Digivolution, Armor Forms for the Digimental Wielders and Bio-Hybrids, and a "Human turns into Digimon" system form spirit Wielders and Bio-Hybrids.


...Further clarification, then.

If you're so hung up on the labels, try this: We need rules for Digimon-to-Digimon evolution, for Digimon-plus-Digimon evolution, and for Human-to-Digimon evolution. Regardless of what you say, the bottom line is that every form of Digivolution calls on one of these three methods.

[Rater202]

It makes no sense from a lore perspective. That's why.

You're comparing a Wizard and Cleric, when it's really a Psion and a Synthesist.

The Synthesist augmenting his body is not the same as the Spion manifesting the power to Fuse his body with an others, and the Bio-Hybrid Digivolving into BioRaidramon is not the same and the Tamer and his Black agumon Biomerging into BlackWarGreymon, and neither is anything like WarGreymon and Metalgarurumon Merging into Omegamon

The Biomerge should be the Exception to the normal Digivolution rules.

The Entire other thing that has very little in common with normal digivolution and might not even follow the same level system should not be the exception to a system that is itself an exception to the normal system, it should be it's own system.

And Bioimaging and Jogress should not be the same system because Biomerging is only Ultimate while jogress is "One level higher" and becuase humans will have talents that digimon do not, and hybrid/bio-hybrid/bio-merged digimon will have both by their nature, while jogress digimon will have only digimon talents.

you guys are taking something that is complex and are making it overly simple at the cost of raping the lore. If it's to be a Digimon game, then it can't diverge from Digimon's lore unless it's for a good reason and oversimplification is not a good enough reason.

[Rakaydos]

There's a reason Invokers, Warlocks, Warblades, Psions, and Binders were not in PHB1. Unified mechanics are more important. If you cant make your special digvolution form work with rules a new player can understand, it shoud probably wait for a splatbook.

With that thought, how about we focus entirely on basic digivolution to start with, get a functional early-01 based system going, before we even think about fancy high level subsystems.

[Rater202]

...Further clarification, then.

If you're so hung up on the labels, try this: We need rules for Digimon-to-Digimon evolution, for Digimon-plus-Digimon evolution, and for Human-to-Digimon evolution. Regardless of what you say, the bottom line is that every form of Digivolution calls on one of these three methods.

This is correct.

The "Human merges with digimon" however, should not, in fact, follow the same rules as the Human to Digimon Evolution rules, however, becuase the Digimon will be in meat space and not be one or more nonsentient blobs of data, and because that Digimon will be following the normal evolution mechanic up untill that point.

It makes signifigantly more sense for Biomerging to be an exception to the normal digivolution rules than it does for Spirit Evolution and Bio-Hybrid Digivolution, which is one guy assumigng a new form by mergiing with data t assume any level form(or an equivalent) to be an exception to the "Digimon and human, sperate fully sentient entities, combining to fomr a mega level" rule, and that does not need it's own system.

[Shadowz1797]

Really wish I had a computer.

Oh well xD

[vasharanpaladin]

This is correct.

The "Human merges with digimon" however, should not, in fact, follow the same rules as the Human to Digimon Evolution rules, however, becuase the Digimon will be in meat space and not be one or more nonsentient blobs of data, and because that Digimon will be following the normal evolution mechanic up untill that point.

It makes signifigantly more sense for Biomerging to be an exception to the normal digivolution rules than it does for Spirit Evolution and Bio-Hybrid Digivolution, which is one guy assumigng a new form by mergiing with data t assume any level form(or an equivalent) to be an exception to the "Digimon and human, sperate fully sentient entities, combining to fomr a mega level" rule, and that does not need it's own system.

In that case, I'm prepared to ignore the existence of Biomerge evolution entirely (at least as used in Tamers) in favor of getting everything else squared away. I will, however, point out that Hybrid Evolution is an expanded take on the concept, allowing for a "Biomerge" across all ranks.

That said, for the sake of quelling this before it heats up again (apologies if I said something out of turn, by the by), I'll agree with Rakaydos, in that we should focus on Standard Digivolution for now...

[Rakaydos]

Can someone more familiar with Mutants and Masterminds ell me- is there any ability already in the system for a "super sayan" mechanic, where they become temporarally more powerful/higher PL-equvilant, with or without drawbacks?

No sence reinventing the wheel, after all.

[Shadowz1797]

Yep everybody just remember we're need to be constructive and not destructive. Ok, as for standard evolution:
Things I believe were in agreement on:
-takes up an action/turn to digivolve
-stat booster
-possibly runs in tandem with a tamer entity (spirit) almost like a mana bar in an rpg.

[Rater202]

If we drop biomerge ntirly, then something needs to take it's place in the Tamers sub Archtype

[Rakaydos]

If we drop biomerge ntirly, then something needs to take it's place in the Tamers sub Archtype

That will matter when we GET to architypes. We're not there yet.
But might I suggest Digimodify instead? It was used for far more of Tamers than Biomerge ever was.

[vasharanpaladin]

If we drop biomerge ntirly, then something needs to take it's place in the Tamers sub Archtype

Temporary. Since we can't agree on where it fits in the mechanics now, we'll make the mechanics first and fit it in later.

[Oazard]

This is correct.

The "Human merges with digimon" however, should not, in fact, follow the same rules as the Human to Digimon Evolution rules, however, becuase the Digimon will be in meat space and not be one or more nonsentient blobs of data, and because that Digimon will be following the normal evolution mechanic up untill that point.

It makes signifigantly more sense for Biomerging to be an exception to the normal digivolution rules than it does for Spirit Evolution and Bio-Hybrid Digivolution, which is one guy assumigng a new form by mergiing with data t assume any level form(or an equivalent) to be an exception to the "Digimon and human, sperate fully sentient entities, combining to fomr a mega level" rule, and that does not need it's own system.

Does not the Tamer Archetype would simply use the "Digimon to Digimon" for digivolution and then the "Human to Digimon" to reach the Mega level? (With the prerequisite to be near your digimon partner) Does the Digimon Partner still exists in the new Digimon or the Tamer completely overwrites the Digimon's personality? (I don't know very much about the Tamers season)

[vasharanpaladin]

Does not the Tamer Archetype would simply use the "Digimon to Digimon" for digivolution and then the "Human to Digimon" to reach the Mega level? (With the prerequisite to be near your digimon partner) Does the Digimon Partner still exists in the new Digimon or the Tamer completely overwrites the Digimon's personality? (I don't know very much about the Tamers season)

Boiled down, it's essentially a Human + Digimon Jogress. The resulting Digimon is both itself and its Tamer, at least in the dub.

[Shadowz1797]

They exist in unison, as seen. With the meshing of their voices when they speak

[Rakaydos]

Does not the Tamer Archetype would simply use the "Digimon to Digimon" for digivolution and then the "Human to Digimon" to reach the Mega level? (With the prerequisite to be near your digimon partner) Does the Digimon Partner still exists in the new Digimon or the Tamer completely overwrites the Digimon's personality? (I don't know very much about the Tamers season)

In tamers, Biomerge was a grand-finale super mode where tamer and digimon whould have conversations with each other while merged. it was implied the two were acting in concert, something that took immence levels of trust between the two.


I say the tamers subtype should focus on the digimodify, as it was by far the more common mechanic of the series.

[Shadowz1797]

I say the tamers subtype should focus on the digimodify, as it was by far the more common mechanic of the series.

I agree. Also I find it a lot more interesting than bio merging haha

[vasharanpaladin]

I say the tamers subtype should focus on the digimodify, as it was by far the more common mechanic of the series.

That reminds me, how would we declare archetypes, anyway? Related to your choice of Digivice, since they all share the same functions other than whatever the current season's hotness is? But that wouldn't work, I don't think the Bio-Hybrids had anything like a D-Tect...

[Blackhawk748]

Can someone more familiar with Mutants and Masterminds ell me- is there any ability already in the system for a "super sayan" mechanic, where they become temporarally more powerful/higher PL-equvilant, with or without drawbacks?

No sence reinventing the wheel, after all.

Ill need to dig a bit but im pretty sure they have one.

Edit: Yup its called boost and its in 2ed (im pilfering stuff from 2nd and 3rd Ed)

[Rakaydos]

Ill need to dig a bit but im pretty sure they have one.

Edit: Yup its called boost and its in 2ed (im pilfering stuff from 2nd and 3rd Ed)

Hmm. I've heard Boost was...rather broken in 2nd, but if we codify exactly how it can be used (+x for rookies, +y for adults, +z for ulti, ect) and make it a stable of the system (digivolution) then it shouldn be as much of a problem.

[Rater202]

That reminds me, how would we declare archetypes, anyway? Related to your choice of Digivice, since they all share the same functions other than whatever the current season's hotness is? But that wouldn't work, I don't think the Bio-Hybrids had anything like a D-Tect...

With what I suggested, Archetypes follow a general theme and sub progressions are specifically how you accomplish that theme, and that includes what kind of Digivice you have

The "Chosen Child" Archetype, for example, covers people who are aprtnered with a Digimon becuase it's their destiny to do so. The "Crest Bearer" progression path has the Adventure Digivice, a Crest Power, and may or may not have a tag and/or crest to focus that crest power, while the Digimental Bearer Sup Progression has a D3 and D-Terminal. The Crest Bearer is your bare bones basics "class" in that most of it's talents are passive "make your digimon stronger" powers and has a fast evolution, while the Digimental Bearer has more versatility due to having access to armor digivolution. at th cost of slower progress through evolution forms

THe "Seeker" archetype I suggested, how ever, covers people who saught out a digimon partner or created one of their own, or were saught out by their digimon. the "Tamer" progression has a D-Arc and modify cards, while the "Agent" has the Datasquad Digivice, Digisoul, and the option to use Burst Mode

The "Merger"(better name needed) covers people who become combinations of human and digimon. Spirit Wieders have a D-Tector and 1-ten spirits to combine with, while Bio-Hybrids have a had a procedure preformd upon the to become literal Human Digimon hybrids, with Digimon Data bonded to and encoded in their DNA, with a Cybernetic Digivice used to assume their Digimon forms.

[vasharanpaladin]

...So I ended up thinking in computer terms for a bit. I ended up thinking that talents should be called "extensions."

Name.EXT (replace with .EXE for activated abilities or .PART for passive ones)
IF (prerequisites)
THEN (benefit for having this extension)
ELSE (optional; reminder text of normal rules if this extension creates an exception to them)

Seems simple enough to me, at any rate? An actual entry might look like this:

Evolve.EXE
IF Digimon level is 5 or higher
THEN Digimon may Standard Digivolve to the next rank as a standard action.

GreatFortitude.PART
IF Digimon Stamina is 3 or higher, OR Digimon has Data attribute
THEN Digimon gains +1 Stamina.

*shrug* I kinda like the nod to programming and data structures, but then I would...

[Blackhawk748]

Hmm. I've heard Boost was...rather broken in 2nd, but if we codify exactly how it can be used (+x for rookies, +y for adults, +z for ulti, ect) and make it a stable of the system (digivolution) then it shouldn be as much of a problem.

It was, but only if you mixed the Slow Fade extra and then paid extra to have it buff all your stats at once. So you'd wind up with a fairly insane bonus for the whole scene. This really only worked if you made it your primary power.

Now we shouldnt have this problem as this wont be their primary power, and they cant buy more ranks as its a Trait they purchase later, as in it has fixed stats when they get it and it doesnt increase from there.

Honestly can rookies even use Burst mode?


...So I ended up thinking in computer terms for a bit. I ended up thinking that talents should be called "extensions."

Name.EXT (replace with .EXE for activated abilities or .PART for passive ones)
IF (prerequisites)
THEN (benefit for having this extension)
ELSE (optional; reminder text of normal rules if this extension creates an exception to them)

Seems simple enough to me, at any rate? An actual entry might look like this:

Evolve.EXE
IF Digimon level is 5 or higher
THEN Digimon may Standard Digivolve to the next rank as a standard action.

GreatFortitude.PART
IF Digimon Stamina is 3 or higher, OR Digimon has Data attribute
THEN Digimon gains +1 Stamina.

*shrug* I kinda like the nod to programming and data structures, but then I would...

Love it. I mean they are called Digital Monsters

[vasharanpaladin]

With what I suggested, Archetypes follow a general theme and sub progressions are specifically how you accomplish that theme, and that includes what kind of Digivice you have

The "Chosen Child" Archetype, for example, covers people who are aprtnered with a Digimon becuase it's their destiny to do so. The "Crest Bearer" progression path has the Adventure Digivice, a Crest Power, and may or may not have a tag and/or crest to focus that crest power, while the Digimental Bearer Sup Progression has a D3 and D-Terminal. The Crest Bearer is your bare bones basics "class" in that most of it's talents are passive "make your digimon stronger" powers and has a fast evolution, while the Digimental Bearer has more versatility due to having access to armor digivolution. at th cost of slower progress through evolution forms

THe "Seeker" archetype I suggested, how ever, covers people who saught out a digimon partner or created one of their own, or were saught out by their digimon. the "Tamer" progression has a D-Arc and modify cards, while the "Agent" has the Datasquad Digivice, Digisoul, and the option to use Burst Mode

The "Merger"(better name needed) covers people who become combinations of human and digimon. Spirit Wieders have a D-Tector and 1-ten spirits to combine with, while Bio-Hybrids have a had a procedure preformd upon the to become literal Human Digimon hybrids, with Digimon Data bonded to and encoded in their DNA, with a Cybernetic Digivice used to assume their Digimon forms.

Thank you. I still like "Bonder," by the way~ (or "Digimorph," Bio-Hybrids feel rather close to that particular quirk of fanfiction...)

I don't suppose the V-Tamer manga shows any archetypes too much different from any of these?

[Shadowz1797]

...So I ended up thinking in computer terms for a bit. I ended up thinking that talents should be called "extensions."

Name.EXT (replace with .EXE for activated abilities or .PART for passive ones)
IF (prerequisites)
THEN (benefit for having this extension)
ELSE (optional; reminder text of normal rules if this extension creates an exception to them)

Seems simple enough to me, at any rate? An actual entry might look like this:

Evolve.EXE
IF Digimon level is 5 or higher
THEN Digimon may Standard Digivolve to the next rank as a standard action.

GreatFortitude.PART
IF Digimon Stamina is 3 or higher, OR Digimon has Data attribute
THEN Digimon gains +1 Stamina.

*shrug* I kinda like the nod to programming and data structures, but then I would...

Love it, keeps everything simple And easy to read

[Rakaydos]

...So I ended up thinking in computer terms for a bit. I ended up thinking that talents should be called "extensions."

Name.EXT (replace with .EXE for activated abilities or .PART for passive ones)
IF (prerequisites)
THEN (benefit for having this extension)
ELSE (optional; reminder text of normal rules if this extension creates an exception to them)

Seems simple enough to me, at any rate? An actual entry might look like this:

Evolve.EXE
IF Digimon level is 5 or higher
THEN Digimon may Standard Digivolve to the next rank as a standard action.

GreatFortitude.PART
IF Digimon Stamina is 3 or higher, OR Digimon has Data attribute
THEN Digimon gains +1 Stamina.

*shrug* I kinda like the nod to programming and data structures, but then I would...

I like it. it's certiantly better than using "level" to refer to XP, spells, and floors... :p Every game has their lingo, and yours makes sence with the setting while being clear and, dare I say, logical. :p

[vasharanpaladin]

I like it. it's certiantly better than using "level" to refer to XP, spells, and floors... :p Every game has their lingo, and yours makes sence with the setting while being clear and, dare I say, logical. :p

Input appropriate numbers and I shall output appropriate extensions~

Blackhawk, I believe Agumon Burst Mode was in a movie?

[Almarck]

Love it too. Tried to do it with a separate project. Didn't fare well. I like the use of file names.

It's especially fun when you realize the -mon thing is also a file extension.

[Blackhawk748]

Input appropriate numbers and I shall output appropriate extensions~

Blackhawk, I believe Agumon Burst Mode was in a movie?

Ok, so its gonna need to scale...... bonus equal to half your rank for one scene? Actually does it increase all stats or only a few?

Seriously i know literally nothing about Burst Mode other than its similar to Super Saiyan.

Ex: a Gatoman who is Rank 6 goes to Burst mode, she gets a +3 bonus.

[Rakaydos]

Input appropriate numbers and I shall output appropriate extensions~

Blackhawk, I believe Agumon Burst Mode was in a movie?

Alas, it is far more likely I would provide the ancient curse of GIGO.

So, those who are familiar with M&M... what would be a good PL baseline for a Child digimon? For a Rookie, Adult, Ulti and Mega?

I'm trying to get a good range so we can look at MM's existing material.

[vasharanpaladin]

Ok, so its gonna need to scale...... bonus equal to half your rank for one scene? Actually does it increase all stats or only a few?

Seriously i know literally nothing about Burst Mode other than its similar to Super Saiyan.

Ex: a Gatoman who is Rank 6 goes to Burst mode, she gets a +3 bonus.

Nope, it was anime. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Agumon#.22Agumon_Burst_Mode.22)

[Blackhawk748]

Alas, it is far more likely I would provide the ancient curse of GIGO.

So, those who are familiar with M&M... what would be a good PL baseline for a Child digimon? For a Rookie, Adult, Ulti and Mega?

I'm trying to get a good range so we can look at MM's existing material.

This is my working model:

Baby/In-Training=1
Child/Rookie=2-5
Adult/Champion=6-10
Perfect/Ultimate=11-15
Ultimate/Mega=16-20

[Rakaydos]

Nope, it was anime. (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Agumon#.22Agumon_Burst_Mode.22)

Looks like it shares a lot of traits with Digi Modify- where burst mode might have more raw power, Digi modify has more potential flexibility.

[Rakaydos]

Love it too. Tried to do it with a separate project. Didn't fare well. I like the use of file names.

It's especially fun when you realize the -mon thing is also a file extension.

The real question, though, is if a villinous character can trap helpless digimon in a .RAR or .ZIP

[vasharanpaladin]

The real question, though, is if a villinous character can trap helpless digimon in a .RAR or .ZIP

No, that'd be what you call whatever external is storing the power needed to call on your partner's Examon form. :smallwink:

[Rater202]

Thank you. I still like "Bonder," by the way~ (or "Digimorph," Bio-Hybrids feel rather close to that particular quirk of fanfiction...)

I don't suppose the V-Tamer manga shows any archetypes too much different from any of these?

That version of Taichi and his Partner Zeromaru/Veedramon are a pretty standard case of Refluffing the "Crest Bearer" progression, taking a talent to make the champion form the default, taking the "Super Ultimate" post ultimate talent, and refluffing it as a mode change.

I could See Agumon Burst Mode as being a Refluffed Digimodify, but I think standard "level beyond ultimate" Burst Mode should be in that "post ultimate" category

I'm not getting the "Examon" joke.

[Rakaydos]

Is that a thing? I've only seen tamers, and a little 01 and 02

[vasharanpaladin]

I'm not getting the "Examon" joke.

Examon (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Examon) is named for the exabyte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exabyte), which is as far beyond a terabyte as the terabyte is beyond a megabyte. In other words, he's Too Fricking Big. :smalltongue:

[Rakaydos]

Examon (http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Examon) is named for the exabyte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exabyte), which is as far beyond a terabyte as the terabyte is beyond a megabyte. In other words, he's Too Fricking Big. :smalltongue:

...I'm totally ok with the ultimate dragon soverign mega digimon being released... from a .rar file. :3

[Rater202]

...I'm totally ok with the ultimate dragon sovereign mega digimon being released... from a .rar file. :3

That is funny, But Examon isn't a Sovereign... or a dragon type, despite his looks

He's one of the Royal Knights... Was he among their Number when they appeared in Savers? I think he was like, the 10th or eleventh member to be revealed, but all I know for sure is that he's not the first(Omegamon), he wasn't in X-Revolution, and he's not 12(Ganookmon) or 13(Jesumon)

[vasharanpaladin]

That is funny, But Examon isn't a Sovereign... or a dragon type, despite his looks

He's one of the Royal Knights... Was he among their Number when they appeared in Savers? I think he was like, the 10th or eleventh member to be revealed, but all I know for sure is that he's not the first(Omegamon), he wasn't in X-Revolution, and he's not 12(Ganookmon) or 13(Jesumon)

Examon is a member of the Dragon's Roar family, that counts. :smalltongue:

And no, according to the article he didn't appear in Savers.

[Rakaydos]

Anyway, we have a system, we have power level targets for the normal digivoltion levels, and we have a specific ability for digivolving.

where do we want to bring the tamers into the system? are they exclusively for advanced architypes, or how can they affect the battle othwise?
Someone mentioned divivolution draininng the tamers stamina... does that sound right? someone want to eyeball some numbers?

[vasharanpaladin]

Tamers are pretty much meatbodies that exist to use skills that Digimon can't, shout commands, execute Modify programs and occasionally demoralize their own partners when they die.

The primary advantage of a Human-to-Digimon evolution is that said "meatbody" is significantly less vulnerable due to being sheathed in a protective coat of combat-ready data.

[Rakaydos]

Tamers are pretty much meatbodies that exist to use skills that Digimon can't, shout commands, execute Modify programs and occasionally demoralize their own partners when they die.

The primary advantage of a Human-to-Digimon evolution is that said "meatbody" is significantly less vulnerable due to being sheathed in a protective coat of combat-ready data.

Wasnt it a plot point in Tamers, when they were exploring the digital world, that most digimon cnt devolve as easilly as the ones that Choose a human tamer? some kind of clock episode... I'd have to rewatch it.

To the other series have anything similar to say about basic digivolution?

[vasharanpaladin]

Wasnt it a plot point in Tamers, when they were exploring the digital world, that most digimon cnt devolve as easilly as the ones that Choose a human tamer? some kind of clock episode... I'd have to rewatch it.

To the other series have anything similar to say about basic digivolution?

Not entirely sure if it's a plot point in Tamers (Digivolution was a power sealed inside Calumon, remember), but supposedly Adventure/02's Gatomon defaults to her Adult stage because she grew into it "naturally" before being bonded to Kari.

[Rater202]

Digimon can grow stronger by consuming enrgy from human emotions.

Partnering with a human allows said digimon to easily and safely consume lots of that emotional energy from a single human-stronger bond with partner, more energy can be consumed.

consuming this energy allows the Digimon to temporarily jump into stronger forms while at the same time growing stronger at a more rapid rate.

Thats basically the purpose of a Human Partner. It's a symbiotic relationship-the Digimon gets access to energy that makes it stronger, and the human gets a good friend with a vested interest in keeping them happy and healthy.

The fact that it works better when they're friendly with each other is a bonus.

The problem is feeding on energy that doesn't agree with them (Tai's false courage in Adventure or Takato's psychotic rage in Tamers) leeds to Dark Digivolution, which results in them going on a rampage, and also that losing access to that energy, such as by the partner no longer feeling the relevant emotion at all, causes rapid deterioration(Tentomon de-digivolving into motimon and then his baby-1 form when Izzy gave up his curiosity is an example of this)

[Almarck]

So here's another important question. Where do we put all of our work on? Should one of us like make a wiki somewhere and use that? Or do we just use Google docs or something similar?

I'd rather like a place where we can keep information on separate places if at all possible. I don't want to have to deal with endless scrolling if I can avoid it. And I imagine it'd be a big productivity boost to keep information organized.

[Blackhawk748]

So here's another important question. Where do we put all of our work on? Should one of us like make a wiki somewhere and use that? Or do we just use Google docs or something similar?

I'd rather like a place where we can keep information on separate places if at all possible. I don't want to have to deal with endless scrolling if I can avoid it. And I imagine it'd be a big productivity boost to keep information organized.

PM Shadowz. i believe they were gonna start making google docs.

[Rakaydos]

Digimon can grow stronger by consuming enrgy from human emotions.

Partnering with a human allows said digimon to easily and safely consume lots of that emotional energy from a single human-stronger bond with partner, more energy can be consumed.

consuming this energy allows the Digimon to temporarily jump into stronger forms while at the same time growing stronger at a more rapid rate.

Thats basically the purpose of a Human Partner. It's a symbiotic relationship-the Digimon gets access to energy that makes it stronger, and the human gets a good friend with a vested interest in keeping them happy and healthy.

The fact that it works better when they're friendly with each other is a bonus.

The problem is feeding on energy that doesn't agree with them (Tai's false courage in Adventure or Takato's psychotic rage in Tamers) leeds to Dark Digivolution, which results in them going on a rampage, and also that losing access to that energy, such as by the partner no longer feeling the relevant emotion at all, causes rapid deterioration(Tentomon de-digivolving into motimon and then his baby-1 form when Izzy gave up his curiosity is an example of this)

So, what's a good Mutants and Masterminds mechanic to represent this?

[Rater202]

Not everything has to come from Mutants and Masterminds.

This whole thing could just be fluff, really, or maybe some flaws to represent the partners being "Out of synch" leeding the partner to be prone to regression or Dark Digivolution.

[Blackhawk748]

So, what's a good Mutants and Masterminds mechanic to represent this?

Well theres Absorption, but thats more of a temporary boost or a recharge. Still could work as a base though.

Edit: im with Rater on this one, this would be a strange thing to model with mechanics. Also i dont think its overly important, but if we feel it is we can come back and do it later

[Rakaydos]

I was thinking less a targeted ability like absorption, and more a "costs for Boost are paid for by the tamer, but the effects are on the digimon, without any "boost other" upgrade.

[Blackhawk748]

I was thinking less a targeted ability like absorption, and more a "costs for Boost are paid for by the tamer, but the effects are on the digimon, without any "boost other" upgrade.

Huh, that could be a fun talent. I wouldnt make it standard but it could be a sweet upgrade.

[Rakaydos]

Huh, that could be a fun talent. I wouldnt make it standard but it could be a sweet upgrade.

Hm? how so? I was just trying to link digivolution duration and the link to tamers emotions.

[Blackhawk748]

Hm? how so? I was just trying to link digivolution duration and the link to tamers emotions.

Ooooh, ya i was thinking the Tamers boost their Digimon by spending their own strength, like they become Exhausted for X and the Digimon gets a bonus.

[vasharanpaladin]

Hm? how so? I was just trying to link digivolution duration and the link to tamers emotions.

Functionally, it's moot. Adult rank generally lasts as long as it needs to, Perfect and higher can be worfed out.

As far as penalties go, I do think we should encourage going at least to Adult in most fights, with Child being something that makes it easier to masquerade. For Perfect, use the setup from Tamers; in the Perfect rank the Tamer takes feedback damage, and dropping the Tamer instantly knocks the Digimon back down to size. Ultimate Digimon should come with about the same feedback, on top of limited activation time.

That's if we want to discourage going full-power at all times, anyway.

[Blackhawk748]

Functionally, it's moot. Adult rank generally lasts as long as it needs to, Perfect and higher can be worfed out.

As far as penalties go, I do think we should encourage going at least to Adult in most fights, with Child being something that makes it easier to masquerade. For Perfect, use the setup from Tamers; in the Perfect rank the Tamer takes feedback damage, and dropping the Tamer instantly knocks the Digimon back down to size. Ultimate Digimon should come with about the same feedback, on top of limited activation time.

That's if we want to discourage going full-power at all times, anyway.

I agree here, i mean it works similarly in Adventure, we just never see a Digidestined get knocked out. And going Champion/Adult in just about every fight is normal procedure in the three series ive watched, as they upgrade after as necessary.

[Almarck]

We should make a mechanic that there are times when going all out is neccesary as well. Such as when dealing with really high level opponents in quick succession.

Perhaps some sort of "resolve" mechanic where digivolution of higher tiers can be held longer when fighting much stronger foes.

Or perhaps, that might be the trigger, the crux of the mechanic. Higher evolutions may only be used in the correct circumstances.

[Rater202]

Maybe an Exp penalty for fighting Digimon at a lower level than the form you're currently at unless it's a lot of them or there is something that negate your advantage?

Not that I'm opposed to shorter durations or cool down times. I suggested Golden Armor Digivolution essentially being "Rookie to Mega" at the cost of you bleeding through energy at a rapid rate.

[vasharanpaladin]

...By the way, after its initial appearance Keramon's line appears to advance exclusively by multi-part Jogress. Armagemon is the result of millions of Kuramon fusing together, and dozens of Chrysalimon fuse in Tamers to make up a Diablomon.

[Shadowz1797]

Yeah we'll do google docs, pm me your google account associated emails or post them in here.

[Rater202]

...By the way, after its initial appearance Keramon's line appears to advance exclusively by multi-part Jogress. Armagemon is the result of millions of Kuramon fusing together, and dozens of Chrysalimon fuse in Tamers to make up a Diablomon.

Aremgemon was more the result of a few thousand Kuramon that were all clones of that specific Diablomon that may of had it's data laoded into it merging together so that it could transfer its consciousness into the real world. Big difference.

Not sure about the Chrysalimon in Tamers. Might be a fluke. I suggest ignoring it.

[Shadowz1797]

I shared docs of stuff we're working on so far:

-Digimon Talent Trees
-Tamer Talent Trees
-Combat Systems


With almarck and vasharan, please share your emails with me so all can edit!

[Rater202]

I'm not so good with hard rules, but I can make suggestions and tweeks and provide critique.

I assume this thread will remain for discussion?

[Shadowz1797]

Yes this will still be the main thread for discussion and going over everything. The information going in the docs is the Set in stone information, as for the core book we would directly copy from the docs basically.

[Rater202]

I don't like using the Term Tamer to refer to all humans, because then the Tamers Sub-Archetype can't be named Tamer...

Unless we can come up with a more fitting name for the "D-Arch, Digimodify, and Biomerge" subclass...

Actually, that might have to be retooled a bit now. If all players have the sympathetic pain and shared emotions thing, then the Tamers Inspired Subclass needsa new drawback...

Anyway, I suggest that the Human Talent trees be organized on the doc as
General Human Talents

Archetype 1 Talents

Subclass 1a talents
Subclass 1b talents

Achetype 2 Talents

Subclass 2a talents
And so on and so forth.

[Rakaydos]

Well retool all the architypes when we get to them.

Might I suggest Humans chosen by Digimon as companions, or Chosen for short.

[Rater202]

Well retool all the architypes when we get to them.

Might I suggest Humans chosen by Digimon as companions, or Chosen for short.

has to much overlap-sometimes the human and the digimon are chosen by destiny instead of one choosing the other.

Partner and companion works.

[vasharanpaladin]

Well retool all the architypes when we get to them.

Might I suggest Humans chosen by Digimon as companions, or Chosen for short.

"Chosen" carries with it the idea that the players' victory is inevitable and the DM has no say in the matter.

"Tamer" is much more neutral, and an adequate description of the human's role in the partnership; they're there to keep their partner on a leash.

Now, that being said, Rater took both for his archetypes, so allow me to point this out. "Tamer," again, carries no weight and is a succinct descriptor. Thus it could not be used as an archetype, and if so we should consider the role that Takato's group actually played in the third season: They fought the great evil, but they were not selected by any power to do so. If Adventure/02's group were Chosen, then the groups in Tamers and Savers were Unchosen. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUnchosenOne)

That said, the alternative that no one seems to have considered? "Child." Which, yes, sets up the expectation that the PC's will be younger than the characters in Savers (an aberration in itself, trust not the series that lacked a gogglehead!), but that's much easier to deal with (and more appropriate to the lore surrounding the non-Adventure sets) than calling everyone "Chosen" like they were all set up for some great destiny!

EDIT: Frontier's group as well as Ryo Akiyama were Chosen, so that doesn't work as an archetype either.

[Rater202]

Ignore Ryu! Ryu had two destined partners, at least one of which was one of the Bad Guys from Adventure.

Ryu transplanted between two continuities.

Ryu's story is highly convoluted.

Ryu breaks all the rules

This game will be complex enough without dragging Ryu into it.

That said, a major theme in the Etamon arc of Adventure was essentially that just because they're chosen doesn't mean they're infallible, they can still fail, and they can still die, so I see no reason why the chosen Children Archetype would need a rename-essentially all it means is that they were fated to come to the digital world and meet those digimon.

I gave the Tamers inspired sub-archtype the Tamer name because, well, it's the only season that used the Tamer title-any other use would have been in a video game or manga and some of those are weird.

Also, Marcus Damon* was fourteen, and the other major Dats agents were about the same age, except Keenan* who was in the 10-13 range. They just look grown up because of the art style shift compared to earlier seasons.

*I can't spell the japanese names for those two.

[vasharanpaladin]

Ignore Ryu! Ryu had two destined partners, at least one of which was one of the Bad Guys from Adventure.

Ryu transplanted between two continuities.

Ryu's story is highly convoluted.

Ryu breaks all the rules

This game will be complex enough without dragging Ryu into it.

The fact remains that Ryo was Chosen, but uses a D-Arc. The Frontier group was Chosen, but use D-Tects.

My conclusion, then, is that the title of "Chosen" is campaign-dependent, and the archetype you gave that name to should be called something else.



That said, a major theme in the Etamon arc of Adventure was essentially that just because they're chosen doesn't mean they're infallible, they can still fail, and they can still die, so I see no reason why the chosen Children Archetype would need a rename-essentially all it means is that they were fated to come to the digital world and meet those digimon.

fated to come to the digital world and meet those digimon.

fated
"Drawn" might be a less weighted alternative, then. If a Seeker went out looking for trouble, then a Drawn was pulled into it. No, I don't care that it looks weird as a noun.



I gave the Tamers inspired sub-archtype the Tamer name because, well, it's the only season that used the Tamer title-any other use would have been in a video game or manga and some of those are weird.
V-Tamer predates Adventure and was the first to use the title of "Tamer." And Digimon in general began as a spear counterpart of Tamagotchi... so we'd be remiss to spurn video games in this, don't you think?



Also, Marcus Damon* was fourteen, and the other major Dats agents were about the same age, except Keenan* who was in the 10-13 range. They just look grown up because of the art style shift compared to earlier seasons.

*I can't spell the japanese names for those two.

Masaru's still older than the previous protagonists, and besides that he committed the sin of not wearing goggles. If any medium is to be ignored, the lack of a gogglehead is a greater black mark on Savers than any other part of the franchise can offer.

[Rater202]

Most of the Digimon Lore comes from the various Anime seasons though, and Masaru did do the awesome deed of punching multiple VenomVamdemon and BeleialVamdemon to death in the crossover arc of Xroswars.

What does that tell you about that Evolutionary Line? Vamdemon was a genuinely terrifying arc villain, but his Megaform VenomMyotismon was, while terrifying, kinda silly, even if he was near explicitly compared with Satan, and then his most powerful form was defeated by a bunch of children shouting out their dreams and then he had his soul obliterated.

Then in Xroswars, his megaforms are all mooks to be destroyed in waves by the good guys.

[Rakaydos]

"Drawn" might be a less weighted alternative, then. If a Seeker went out looking for trouble, then a Drawn was pulled into it. No, I don't care that it looks weird as a noun.
-team of 4 "drawn"
-"Lets split up to find the maguffin faster!"

=The Drawn are quartered. :p


...anyway, is everyone ok with calling the generic human partner "child?"

[vasharanpaladin]

Most of the Digimon Lore comes from the various Anime seasons though, and Masaru did do the awesome deed of punching multiple VenomVamdemon and BeleialVamdemon to death in the crossover arc of Xroswars.
Actually, this just tells me that Digimon are overall much weaker in Xros Wars.

And "most of" the lore actually comes from the "manual," to wit various tidbits put out by the creators on the internet. The anime seasons do not comprise the majority.



What does that tell you about that Evolutionary Line? Vamdemon was a genuinely terrifying arc villain, but his Megaform VenomMyotismon was, while terrifying, kinda silly, even if he was near explicitly compared with Satan, and then his most powerful form was defeated by a bunch of children shouting out their dreams and then he had his soul obliterated.
There is a reason it's considered a good thing that 02 might be retconned out of existence...

[Rater202]

Retconing 02 in it's entirety would cause more continuity issues than it solves, and Tri explicitly takes place 2 years after 02. It's not being retconned, with the hopeful exception of that gods awful epilog.

[vasharanpaladin]

Retconing 02 in it's entirety would cause more continuity issues than it solves, and Tri explicitly takes place 2 years after 02. It's not being retconned, with the hopeful exception of that gods awful epilog.

"T.K. made up a whole bunch of horsehockey to sell more books."

There. Practically anything someone finds distasteful about 02 can be swept under the rug with no glaring continuity issues. Up to and including the entire season, if necessary.

[Rater202]

Retconing 02 and it's entirety removes armor digivolution. armor digimon appear in Tamers, Frontier, Savers, and Xros Wars.

It also adversely affects the Xrosswars timeline and the V-Tamer Manga, and the existence of Ken Ichijoji as well as Daisuke's Veemon, and a lot of it's backstory is important to the convoluted backstory of Ryo, and changing Ryo's backstory changes Tamers.

The closest to a full retcon is "The series is being treated in broad strokes and the new guys will be getting minimal appearances if they show up at all" and hopefully the epilog will be retconned.

since this takes place while Taichi and the others are in Highschool(except for TK and Kari who are in middle schools and wearing the middle school uniform from 02) using the TK made stuff up for his books excuse for a retcon wouldn't work becuase TK wouldn't have written his books yet.

and according to something I read, part of Tri is deconstructing the idea of humans and digimon living closely together, like they were at the end of 02.

[Rakaydos]

Getting a bit off topic there, both of you.

[Rater202]

Yes, probably.

[Rakaydos]

Question for those of you doing "research":

Is there an example of Digimon getting abilities other than 1)digivolving, or 2) Child Interaction (training montauge, digi modify, Power of hope, whatever)

I think in Tamers Renamon went for some solo training, but she did so because Rika made her feel inadiquate... which feels tenuous, but possibly enough to call it a corner case on a single mechanic.

Someone mentioned up thread that the pokemon RP had both trainer XP and pokemon XP. But what if this digimon RP didnt?

What if the trainer had a single pool of XP, and he can spend it on himslf (reading up, working out, getting more digi modify cards) or he can spend it on the digimon (training montauge, power unlock, earning the next digivolution)? Does that work from a lore standpoint?

[vasharanpaladin]

Question for those of you doing "research":

Is there an example of Digimon getting abilities other than 1)digivolving, or 2) Child Interaction (training montauge, digi modify, Power of hope, whatever)

Keramon was able to access the internet and Digivolve several times without a bonded Child in "Our War Game."

The short film Digimon X-Evolution similarly involves zero humans, solely about a Digital problem solved entirely by Digimon alone. DORUmon was able to Digivolve on its own.

Anything else is the realm of fanfiction.



Someone mentioned up thread that the pokemon RP had both trainer XP and pokemon XP. But what if this digimon RP didnt?

What if the trainer had a single pool of XP, and he can spend it on himslf (reading up, working out, getting more digi modify cards) or he can spend it on the digimon (training montauge, power unlock, earning the next digivolution)? Does that work from a lore standpoint?

That was me, yes. The core ideas are roughly similar (a boy and his monster), the chief difference being that in Pokémon you are expected to keep more than one. Keeping tamer rank and Digimon level separate also makes it easier to enable Children like Willis (Lopmon and Terriermon) or the PC's in the later Digimon World games (admittedly I've only played 3 and Dawn/Dusk, both of which give you a party of three Digimon).

[Rakaydos]

Keramon was able to access the internet and Digivolve several times without a bonded Child in "Our War Game."

The short film Digimon X-Evolution similarly involves zero humans, solely about a Digital problem solved entirely by Digimon alone. DORUmon was able to Digivolve on its own.

Anything else is the realm of fanfiction.
Hmm. I wonder if solo digimon could be ran using hybrid/bio hybrid rules.


That was me, yes. The core ideas are roughly similar (a boy and his monster), the chief difference being that in Pokémon you are expected to keep more than one. Keeping tamer rank and Digimon level separate also makes it easier to enable Children like Willis (Lopmon and Terriermon) or the PC's in the later Digimon World games (admittedly I've only played 3 and Dawn/Dusk, both of which give you a party of three Digimon).

So how does the split XP work with solo digimon, as well as hybrids, bio hybrids and the like? And how would Willis and Lopmon be different from the other trainers as far as having a single XP pool? I would think it would actually be better for him, spending XP on child abilities instead of digimon ones.

(I also think tamers had the players RP as each others digimon to make things interesting. Takato played Lopmon, Willis played Renamon, Rika played Impmon, and Impmon's tamers played Guilmon)

[vasharanpaladin]

Hmm. I wonder if solo digimon could be ran using hybrid/bio hybrid rules.

So how does the split XP work with solo digimon, as well as hybrids, bio hybrids and the like? And how would Willis and Lopmon be different from the other trainers as far as having a single XP pool? I would think it would actually be better for him, spending XP on child abilities instead of digimon ones.

"Split XP" works like this: The Child has his XP pool that he can spend on Child-only abilities, and (each of) his Digimon has its own XP pool to determine its level/abilities/whatever. Child gains XP for story advancement, milestones, just showing up for the session or even because the DM feels like it. Digimon gain XP for participating in battle.

In PTU, the splatbook "The Blessed and The Damned" features rules for trainers who have killed a Legendary Pokémon and performed a ritual to become able to take on its form. The trainer continues to have his own features and abilities and can use them while in his Pokémon form, while the Pokémon form starts at level 1 and advances as a Pokémon... that is, the Usurper's Pokémon form does not automatically scale by his trainer level, but he has to break it in and get used to it the same way he would a new Pokémon: By battling in that form.

Bio/Hybrid characters would work the same way. Their Child form advances as a Child would, and their Digimon form advances as a Digimon would. So Takuya would add to his Child XP pool by advancing milestones and suchlike, gaining Child extensions that way, but he would have to actually take the time to morph into and battle as Flamon/The Spirit of Fire in order to gain power as a Digimon.

If the game is balanced around the idea of Children being around to buff their Digimon partners, then it would only be fair thata "solo Digimon" player be pointed toward the Bio/Hybrid ("Digimorph) rules so that he's not nerfing himself.



(I also think tamers had the players RP as each others digimon to make things interesting. Takato played Lopmon, Willis played Renamon, Rika played Impmon, and Impmon's tamers played Guilmon)

Point of order: Takato played Terriermon, Ruki played Guilmon, and Lee played Renamon. Impmon was a DMPC. :smallwink:

[Rater202]

Question for those of you doing "research":

Is there an example of Digimon getting abilities other than 1)digivolving, or 2) Child Interaction (training montauge, digi modify, Power of hope, whatever)

I think in Tamers Renamon went for some solo training, but she did so because Rika made her feel inadiquate... which feels tenuous, but possibly enough to call it a corner case on a single mechanic.

Someone mentioned up thread that the pokemon RP had both trainer XP and pokemon XP. But what if this digimon RP didnt?

What if the trainer had a single pool of XP, and he can spend it on himslf (reading up, working out, getting more digi modify cards) or he can spend it on the digimon (training montauge, power unlock, earning the next digivolution)? Does that work from a lore standpoint?

Beelzemon was able to use the attacks of Digimon whose Data he absorbed, but this might be a power unique to him, as he's the Demon Lord of Gluttony.

[Rakaydos]

In PTU, the splatbook "The Blessed and The Damned" features rules for trainers who have killed a Legendary Pokémon and performed a ritual to become able to take on its form. The trainer continues to have his own features and abilities and can use them while in his Pokémon form, while the Pokémon form starts at level 1 and advances as a Pokémon... that is, the Usurper's Pokémon form does not automatically scale by his trainer level, but he has to break it in and get used to it the same way he would a new Pokémon: By battling in that form.
How often in digimon does an existing tamer get a new digimon? most of the latecomers I remember from tamers were given bonus XP for starting late: Lopmon spent all her XP on having a mega base form, Leomon was champion with a lot of nice digi modify cards, (and doomed), and androidmon or whatever dedigivoved when he joind a -competent- tamer.



Point of order: Takato played Terriermon, Ruki played Guilmon, and Lee played Renamon. Impmon was a DMPC. :smallwink:

Really? I just feel Guilmon is better played by a 3 year old, then by a tourny winning minmaxer.

[vasharanpaladin]

How often in digimon does an existing tamer get a new digimon? most of the latecomers I remember from tamers were given bonus XP for starting late: Lopmon spent all her XP on having a mega base form, Leomon was champion with a lot of nice digi modify cards, (and doomed), and androidmon or whatever dedigivoved when he joind a -competent- tamer.


First, Antylamon is Perfect, all of the Devas are. Lopmon's "bonus" was that she could skip Adult straight to it when needed.

Second, I don't think anyone actually got a new Digimon, so much as their current one reformatted; T.K. didn't get a new Patamon, his old one just reincarnated with an updated PSU driver. The situations you've named are pretty much the player joining the game late and the DM wanting them on an even keel with the ones who've been there the whole time.

Leomon's death marked Juri-player's last session with the group and Juri being taken over by the DM. :smallbiggrin:




Really? I just feel Guilmon is better played by a 3 year old, then by a tourny winning minmaxer.

The key words here are "tourney-winning minmaxer." Ruki-player had enough of thinking for her own character and decided to turn her brain off whenever she played as Guilmon. :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

Got some more Combat stuff. I thinking instead of using Str, Dex etc like M&M (which is primarily used for skills and non super powered attacks) we could base the Digimons basic attack (clawing, biting, punching etc) off of half their Rank. So if you're rank 6 your basic attack does 3 damage. (obviously this is still capped by your form, so even if your rank 6 you have to be in Adult form to do 3, otherwise you do 2)

Also on the Digivolution discussion, why dont we just have it last for one scene? Hoenstly they usually De-Digivolve right after the battle anyhow so i dont see this being a huge problem.


The key words here are "tourney-winning minmaxer." Ruki-player had enough of thinking for her own character and decided to turn her brain off, and turn her stomach on, whenever she played as Guilmon. :smalltongue:

Fixed that for ya :smallwink:

[vasharanpaladin]

Fixed that for ya :smallwink:

Actually? Just got to thinking, it's probably more likely the DM had them each design a partner Digimon. Ruki-player made Guilmon intending it to be her partner... and then the DM says "Okay, pass the Digimon sheets to the person on your right~"

So she made Guilmon an idiot out of spite! :smallbiggrin:

[Blackhawk748]

Actually? Just got to thinking, it's probably more likely the DM had them each design a partner Digimon. Ruki-player made Guilmon intending it to be her partner... and then the DM says "Okay, pass the Digimon sheets to the person on your right~"

So she made Guilmon an idiot out of spite! :smallbiggrin:

That actually makes sense, and then he turned out to be several kinds of awesome, and the comic relief.

[Oazard]

Also on the Digivolution discussion, why dont we just have it last for one scene? Hoenstly they usually De-Digivolve right after the battle anyhow so i dont see this being a huge problem.


I could see when you reach a certain level, you can maintain your digimon in Champion form for a long time. Just to use your partner as a mount for long journey. :smallbiggrin:

[Rater202]

How often in digimon does an existing tamer get a new digimon? most of the latecomers I remember from tamers were given bonus XP for starting late: Lopmon spent all her XP on having a mega base form, Leomon was champion with a lot of nice digi modify cards, (and doomed), and androidmon or whatever dedigivoved when he joind a -competent- tamer.

Lopmon was a rookie who atarted with a perfect base fomr.

Lopmons megaform is Cherubimon.

you're thinking of MarineAngemon-he was the partner with the Ultimate base form.

[Rakaydos]

First, Antylamon is Perfect, all of the Devas are. Lopmon's "bonus" was that she could skip Adult straight to it when needed.

Second, I don't think anyone actually got a new Digimon, so much as their current one reformatted; T.K. didn't get a new Patamon, his old one just reincarnated with an updated PSU driver. The situations you've named are pretty much the player joining the game late and the DM wanting them on an even keel with the ones who've been there the whole time.

Leomon's death marked Juri-player's last session with the group and Juri being taken over by the DM. :smallbiggrin:

So, I'm basically looking at these situations as "stress testing" the XP system. Lopmon/Antylamon spent just enough XP on the tamer to have a 3 year old girl who knows nothing about digimon, and spent EVERYTHING on the Digimon. Same goes for when Beazamon went good. Conversely, when Kazu for Androidmon, he spent his XP on tamer abilities and stuck with the Guardromon form. I feel this was the result of a player's choice when spending XP, rather than a GM-mandated (or system mandated) split between Child XP and Mon XP.

[vasharanpaladin]

So, I'm basically looking at these situations as "stress testing" the XP system. Lopmon/Antylamon spent just enough XP on the tamer to have a 3 year old girl who knows nothing about digimon, and spent EVERYTHING on the Digimon. Same goes for when Beazamon went good. Conversely, when Kazu for Androidmon, he spent his XP on tamer abilities and stuck with the Guardromon form. I feel this was the result of a player's choice when spending XP, rather than a GM-mandated (or system mandated) split between Child XP and Mon XP.

Works for those examples, yes. But my counterexamples were Willis and the Digimon World tamers, who have multiple Digimon. If that sort of archetype is to exist, the "single pool" system might have problems.

[Rakaydos]

I could see when you reach a certain level, you can maintain your digimon in Champion form for a long time. Just to use your partner as a mount for long journey. :smallbiggrin:

Wernt most of those done after achieving the next digivolution?

If not, well, there's always the "travel montauge is a scene, right?" excuse.

[Rater202]

Misunderstood part of question-a New Tamer does not get a new Partner.

The bond lasts forever, which really sucks if you're in Tamers and Digimon die forever when killed.

[Rakaydos]

Works for those examples, yes. But my counterexamples were Willis and the Digimon World tamers, who have multiple Digimon. If that sort of archetype is to exist, the "single pool" system might have problems.

I'm willing to throw out the games entirely- Pokemon was always about the games, where Digimon was more about the show. We can probably have a sidebar talking about combining with PokeRP to represent the games, but I'd really prefer to have solid support for the show over the games.

With that said, Wilis... from what I read on the wiki, his digimon feel more like DM shenangans for plot.

[Oazard]

Wernt most of those done after achieving the next digivolution?

If not, well, there's always the "travel montauge is a scene, right?" excuse.

I think it was always (or near always, I think the exceptions are Digimons whom their base form was at higher level than Rookie) after they reached the next digivolution.

Yup, there is always this excuse, but well, as long as I can ride around the Digital World on my Kiwimon, I'm happy. :smalltongue:


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18756479&postcount=219]Works[/url] for those examples, yes. But my counterexamples were Willis and the Digimon World tamers, who have multiple Digimon. If that sort of archetype is to exist, the "single pool" system might have problems.

Doesn't this archetype would compensate the lower power of each of his Digimons by their number? Individually, they would be weaker than a Digimon of same level. Or, for this archetype, upgrading their Digimons cost less XP, but I don't like this idea.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'm willing to throw out the games entirely- Pokemon was always about the games, where Digimon was more about the show. We can probably have a sidebar talking about combining with PokeRP to represent the games, but I'd really prefer to have solid support for the show over the games.

With that said, Wilis... from what I read on the wiki, his digimon feel more like DM shenangans for plot.

Digimon began with games, they're not to be discarded so casually.

[Rater202]

I'd like people to note that Digimon the Movie was three movies in Japan, and that Willis(Or Wallace, to use his real name) had nothing to do with Diablomon and that his Movie, Hurricane Touchdown! The Golden Digimentals, is not canonical and is in fact only one of two Digimon movies that is not.

In other words, we can ignore his Mary Sue ass.

I think multiple Partners should be restricted to an Archetype based on the "Digixros" mechanics, and only if we make rules for them.

[Almarck]

I'm thinking for players who have a more than one digimon, they get price discounts for XP, but their total XP has to be shared between all of their partners mostly evenly.

We could make a chart about how to handle it.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'd like people to note that Digimon the Movie was three movies in Japan, and that Willis(Or Wallace, to use his real name) had nothing to do with Diablomon and that his Movie, Hurricane Touchdown! The Golden Digimentals, is not canonical and is in fact only one of two Digimon movies that is not.


That so? What's the other one, then?

[Rater202]

Digimon began with games, they're not to be discarded so casually.

At the same time, the Canon is defined mostly by the Anime, and the franchise has grown beyond the games.

The reason why the Ultimate/Perfect stages were called that is because they were the last, strongest, fully Digivolved forms in the games.

Mega/Ultimate level Digimon were a plot twist in Adventure.

The fact that most of the games haven't been released outside of Japan also makes holding ourselves to them strictly very difficult.

[Rakaydos]

Digimon began with games, they're not to be discarded so casually.

Sonic the Hedgehog began with games too. But these days the sonic boom games are mere videogame tie-ins to the Sonic Boom TV show.

Digimon also has the relentless pressure to be "more like pokemon", given the other's immence popularity. But even the pokemon anime generally limits most trainers to 1-2 "main" pokemon each. (Ash is an exception, as is some gym leaders) But if I want to play a Digimon RPG, chances are I've been inspired by one or more of the digimon shows/manga, not the games.

[Rater202]

That so? What's the other one, then?

The three movies were "Digomon Adventure" the little short at the begining with Tai and Kari and the really big Agumon that becmae a really big Greymon, that was a short film that was made and shown theatrically to advertise the Digimon Adventure Anime. The second Segmment, with Diablomon, was a canonical post season movie, "Our War Game" that also helped set up Adventure 02 and the Ryo games. The third was the non canonical movie with Wallace.

Executive meddling made them edit the fils together and treat Hurricane touchdown as Canon, and they had to tie Wallace(renamed willis because the "engrish" expert was out that day, same reason Diablomon became Diaborromon) to the "Our War Game" sequence so that the third segment wouldn't feel tacked on.

[vasharanpaladin]

The fact that most of the games haven't been released outside of Japan also makes holding ourselves to them strictly very difficult.

That should mean "don't appeal to them exclusively," not "ignore them entirely."

[vasharanpaladin]

The three movies were "Digomon Adventure" the little short at the begining with Tai and Kari and the really big Agumon that becmae a really big Greymon, that was a short film that was made and shown theatrically to advertise the Digimon Adventure Anime. The second Segmment, with Diablomon, was a canonical post season movie, "Our War Game" that also helped set up Adventure 02 and the Ryo games. The third was the non canonical movie with Wallace.

Executive meddling made them edit the fils together and treat Hurricane touchdown as Canon, and they had to tie Wallace(renamed willis because the "engrish" expert was out that day, same reason Diablomon became Diaborromon) to the "Our War Game" sequence so that the third segment wouldn't feel tacked on.

Meant "the other non-canon one."

[Rakaydos]

That should mean "don't appeal to them exclusively," not "ignore them entirely."

We can worry about them when we get to series-specific stuff. Hybrids will also probably need cost modifiers as well.

[Rater202]

Meant "the other non-canon one."

Second Tamers movie, Runaway Locomon.

It takes place after Tamers, so the Tamers partners are tapped in the Digital World at the time it should take place.

The Canon ending is in a Drama CD

[Blackhawk748]

same reason Diablomon became Diaborromon

Personally i prefer Diaborro over Diablo, as i think it sounds cooler when he says it, my opinion though.

Also i step away for 20 minutes to make some fish sticks and the board explodes :smallmad:

Edit: on the multiple digimon part, i wouldnt do anything to reduce cost, you get two partners instead of one, while you may not have as many things as them you have two Digimon to use in combat.

[vasharanpaladin]

We can worry about them when we get to series-specific stuff.

Actually, one important bit comes up consistently that would apply to the core: How your partner Digimon is handled.

In Digimon World 3 (at least), your partner(s) is always the Child form, with Digivolved states being modifiers to that. While you can set your Digimon to automatically enter battle in a Digivolved state, some enemy Digimon have attacks that force your Digimon to degenerate into a lower form, requiring you to spend turns Digivolving again. This game also has Training Points (TP) for increasing stats or resistances (could be used to buy additional extensions?).

In Digimon World Dusk, your partner changes every time you Digivolve it and again every time you degenerate it back to a lower form. This, I believe, is the point we are trying to avoid, being so similar to Pokémon? This game also has typed EXP, with certain Digivolutions requiring you to have a set amount of XP from Beast Digimon, or from Dark Digimon, or some such to evolve.



Hybrids will also probably need cost modifiers as well.

Only if you're insistent that they must work exactly as in the series. Which they shouldn't, if they're to be on par with the other archetypes.

In your suggested system, the Child gets all the XP and can split it between improving himself and improving his Digimon, correct? Why would a Hybrid be different? It is, after all, a Child who is also a Digimon. So he would have the choice of spending XP to improve himself, or spending it to improve his Digimon form.

[Rakaydos]

Edit: on the multiple digimon part, i wouldnt do anything to reduce cost, you get two partners instead of one, while you may not have as many things as them you have two Digimon to use in combat.

Depends on how attack scaling works- sure, two digimon is twice the action economy, but two level 10 fighters arnt going to beat a level 20 anything.

[Blackhawk748]

In Digimon World 3 (at least), your partner(s) is always the Child form, with Digivolved states being modifiers to that. While you can set your Digimon to automatically enter battle in a Digivolved state, some enemy Digimon have attacks that force your Digimon to degenerate into a lower form, requiring you to spend turns Digivolving again. This game also has Training Points (TP) for increasing stats or resistances (could be used to buy additional extensions?)

This is what i considered to be standard and was the assumption i was working under. Obviously a Talent that keeps your partner permanently in Adult mode should be available.


Depends on how attack scaling works- sure, two digimon is twice the action economy, but two level 10 fighters arnt going to beat a level 20 anything.

In DnD? oh hell ya. In M&M its doable, a lot harder but do able. Also you could be on par with the party, you'd just have less options.

[Rakaydos]

In your suggested system, the Child gets all the XP and can split it between improving himself and improving his Digimon, correct? Why would a Hybrid be different? It is, after all, a Child who is also a Digimon. So he would have the choice of spending XP to improve himself, or spending it to improve his Digimon form.

My thinking was that Because the digimon doesnt have to spend XP on bodyguard-type abilities to protect the Child, the hybrid would have to spend more for the same effects, but if we roll bodyguarding into "normal" child-digimon relationships, we can simply take that one aspect out when they choose to go hybrid.

[vasharanpaladin]

Personally i prefer Diaborro over Diablo, as i think it sounds cooler when he says it, my opinion though.

Also i step away for 20 minutes to make some fish sticks and the board explodes :smallmad:

One, intentional Engrish is not funny. It's Keramon->Chrysalimon->Infermon->Diablomon.

Two, that would be the board telling you not to eat fish sticks. :smalltongue:



Edit: on the multiple digimon part, i wouldnt do anything to reduce cost, you get two partners instead of one, while you may not have as many things as them you have two Digimon to use in combat.

Counterpoint, again: The given example has two Digimon, one of which was sufficient to maul a party of seven. Including the other one, which proved sufficient to bring down the first alongside only one of the other six when given a suitable upgrade.

Of course, as Rater pointed out, GoldRapidmon is non-canon, but still.

Best to wait and do as Rater suggests, using it for a DigiXros archetype. Still going to be better to focus on one of them (read: Shoutmon) and use the rest of your pack as battery packs, though...

[Rater202]

Who suggested children and partners drawing from the same pool? I dislike that idea. I think we should stick with the human and digimon having separate pools of experience.

Oh no, the Digimental of Destiny and Mega-Equivalent Gold Rapidmon is Canon, it's just the actual movie and the events depicted there in that's none Cannon.

[Rakaydos]

Who suggested children and partners drawing from the same pool? I dislike that idea. I think we should stick with the human and digimon having separate pools of experience.

I did, based on examples of late-joiners from Tamers, the one series I'm familiar with. What is your reasoning for sticking to PokeRP's system?

[vasharanpaladin]

Who suggested children and partners drawing from the same pool? I dislike that idea. I think we should stick with the human and digimon having separate pools of experience.

That would be Rakaydos, with whom I was discussing~



Oh no, the Digimental of Destiny and Mega-Equivalent Gold Rapidmon is Canon, it's just the actual movie and the events depicted there in that's none Cannon.

Right, so take that as "the entire counterpoint is based on a non-canon movie."


I did, based on examples of late-joiners from Tamers, the one series I'm familiar with. What is your reasoning for sticking to PokeRP's system?

Presumably the same as mine, that it makes it easier for multi-Digimon archetypes to be slotted in.

[Blackhawk748]

One, intentional Engrish is not funny. It's Keramon->Chrysalimon->Infermon->Diablomon.

Two, that would be the board telling you not to eat fish sticks. :smalltongue:



Counterpoint, again: The given example has two Digimon, one of which was sufficient to maul a party of seven. Including the other one, which proved sufficient to bring down the first alongside only one of the other six when given a suitable upgrade.

Of course, as Rater pointed out, GoldRapidmon is non-canon, but still.

Best to wait and do as Rater suggests, using it for a DigiXros archetype. Still going to be better to focus on one of them (read: Shoutmon) and use the rest of your pack as battery packs, though...

Honestly i just thought they mistakenly stuck a double R there instead of an L, i dont know japanese so for all i knew that could be a normal screw up. So apologies if i offended.

Also i second the Xross achetype, as we have more material to work with there.

Edit: On the XP discussion i am largely neutral as both have solid cases for them

[Rakaydos]

I dont know Xross, but it sounds like digivolving there is mainly X+Y=Z?

If we scale digivolving right, we might be able to make it better to merge 2 equal power digimon than to merge 1 really weak and 1 really strong, even given equal points.

[Rater202]

We should focus on a multi partner/digixros archetype once we've got the base, Jogress, and Hybrid evolution rules

Digixros isn't evolution at all, and the Digimon in that season didn't even have levels.

Evolution was more like it was in pokemon, once a species reaches a certain age, it assumes a more powerful form, except when Hyper Evolving, where it temporarily assumed an older and more powerful form

[vasharanpaladin]

I dont know Xross, but it sounds like digivolving there is mainly X+Y=Z?

If we scale digivolving right, we might be able to make it better to merge 2 equal power digimon than to merge 1 really weak and 1 really strong, even given equal points.

Jogress is the merging of two Digimon of equal power (read: two different players) to create a stronger Digimon with aspects of both.

DigiXros is one or more Digimon merging with a single strong Digimon (read: one player with more than one partner) to make that Digimon stronger.

A Jogressed Digimon should have the same action economy as two Digimon, but is more fragile than two Digimon of the same rank would be.

A DigiXros allows multiple Digimon to take part in the same fight, without breaking action economy for the player using it.

[Blackhawk748]

We should focus on a multi partner/digixros archetype once we've got the base, Jogress, and Hybrid evolution rules

Agreed, and i love how we keep agreeing to push certain things off lol

[Shadowz1797]

Blackhawk btw if you don't want to give a google account that's cool, just sometime write in here a post i can copy paste about the combat system.

[Blackhawk748]

Blackhawk btw if you don't want to give a google account that's cool, just sometime write in here a post i can copy paste about the combat system.

Ok, ill bring it all together when i get the rest of it, as ive got about half or so right now.