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Rakeesh
2007-04-04, 01:09 PM
Could someone please give me an example of how Spring Attack is actually used in a 3.5 combat situation? I'm a bit confused on just what benefits it offers, and why (if at all) it should be taken.

How does it help? What does having it let a character do, that otherwise he couldn't do?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-04, 01:13 PM
It lets a character move, attack, and then move again, something you can't do without the use of the feat. It's useful for harrying tactics, so that a weaker character can move into position, attack, and then retreat to safety without ever provoking a threat to their well-being.

Indon
2007-04-04, 01:14 PM
You're a monk fighting a bear in a redwood forest.

So, because you're a monk you move really fast. You run up to the bear, hit him once, and then tumble away with the rest of your movement behind a tree.

So now the bear has to lumber after you. If you moved out of the bear's normal movement range, he can't attack you at all, because you're behind a big tree and can't be charged at. So, bear runs up to you and can't attack, so you hit him again and run behind another tree. Repeat until you have to make a craft(Gourmet Bear Meat) check.

Edit: It's also pretty useful for Scouts, come to think of it.

Tengu
2007-04-04, 01:20 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

Though it also requires the feat Hold the Line.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-04, 01:25 PM
I've only used it once myself (against my own players, heh) but I really like using it along with Hide in Plain Sight. It's like infinite free attacks so long as they can't find you.

NullAshton
2007-04-04, 01:47 PM
...ooo, hide in plain sight. GENIUS.

Psychic Warrior/Shadowdancer with spring attack... invincible! Especially with armor of greater shadow, skill focus for both hide and move silently, stealthy feat...

Combine with hustle. You get to move in, full attack, move back out, and remain hidden the whole time.

Indon
2007-04-04, 01:48 PM
I've only used it once myself (against my own players, heh) but I really like using it along with Hide in Plain Sight. It's like infinite free attacks so long as they can't find you.

Don't you get a -20 to your hide checks right after making an attack, though?

Or is that just for ranged attacks...

NullAshton
2007-04-04, 01:50 PM
Don't you get a -20 to your hide checks right after making an attack, though?

Or is that just for ranged attacks...

Yes, you do.

That's why you raise hide in plain sight through the roof. THE ROOF IS THE LIMIT, BABY! ROOF IS THE LIMIT!

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-04, 02:00 PM
I combined it with a ring of hiding for maximum ownage. Skill boosting gear is ridiculously cheap, and makes this a really crazy funny way of dealing free damage.

Zherog
2007-04-04, 02:03 PM
You're a monk fighting a bear in a redwood forest.

So, because you're a monk you move really fast. You run up to the bear, hit him once, and then tumble away with the rest of your movement behind a tree.

You don't need to Tumble away. Movement against the target you attack doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

***

One of the best uses of Spring Attack is a character with a reach weapon. You basically get two attacks for every attack your enemy makes (as long as your opponent isn't also using a reach weapon).

Move up to your opponent until you're 10' away, smack him with your weapon once, then move away. Whether your opponent charges or uses normal movement to get to you, he'll need to move through a square you threaten (because you have reach), so you take your AoO before he whacks you.

If you combine that with other feat trees, it can get even better. For example, if you have Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip while using a reach weapon that can be used to trip (spiked chain, guisarme, and whip from core), you can make a trip attempt as your Attack of Opportunity, then you can essentially trade a full attack for the ability to keep your target prone and unable to attack you.

NullAshton
2007-04-04, 02:05 PM
I combined it with a ring of hiding for maximum ownage. Skill boosting gear is ridiculously cheap, and makes this a really crazy funny way of dealing free damage.

Not to mention, think of the fun you could have with it in solo encounters. Appearing dramatically from the shadows, slashing someone, just to keep running and disappear back into the shadows.Your opponent whirls to face where they got attacked from, then a few seconds later, you do the exact same thing. Then your opponent just starts randomly attacking stuff around him...

Of course then your DM gets annoyed, and starts tossing things like dragons after you.

JellyPooga
2007-04-04, 02:13 PM
Probaly the best application of Spring Attack I can think of is the access it gives you to the Telflammar Shadowlord PrC from Forgotten Realms. That class is all kinds of badass. See in magical darkness, shadowjump, attacking after using any DD effect, death attack, magic and practical immortality? Yes please!

TheDarkOne
2007-04-04, 02:16 PM
One of the other main benifits is being able to move through your targets threatened area with out taking AOOs. You could use this to approch something with large reach and combat reflexes, the only restriction being that you haveto move before and after your attack, which isn't that big of a problem really.

martyboy74
2007-04-04, 02:41 PM
One of the other main benifits is being able to move through your targets threatened area with out taking AOOs. You could use this to approch something with large reach and combat reflexes, the only restriction being that you haveto move before and after your attack, which isn't that big of a problem really.

It depends on your speed, and their reach. A gargantuan/colossal creature with a reach weapon would kill you.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-04, 02:42 PM
Just did a price check, for anyone interested- you can get a hide +20 ring for around 40,000 gold for a total negation of the movement problem. Take the Dread Commando class for stealthy movements and you can make the ordinary -20 go to a -10 instead.

So, my ultimate Spring Attack god in fifteen levels-

Human Rogue 1/Scout 7/Shadowdancer 2/Dread Commando (HoB) 5
For once, I'm going to suggest maxing out his dexterity first during character creation followed by intelligence, instead of the other way around. Then you can mix-and-match as you please with the rest, though I'd really suggest going in order of strength>constitution>charisma>wisdom. Make strength at least a 13 for the last three feats I'm listing, though they aren't absolutely necessary.
Feats, in order of acquisition: Dodge, Mobility, Swift Ambusher (CS), Spring Attack, Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper (CW)
At this level, you can bring hide and move silently to an 18. After three ability score bonuses, your dexterity should be at a 21, netting a +5 boost for 23. Not bad, not bad. Now, you should have around 200,000 gold according to WBL. Blow 80k total on two rings- a ring of hide +20 and a ring of move silently +20. Due to your Dread Commando levels, this means you're up +10 when charging (or still the full +20 if you don't charge, which is highly possible with your present 40 ft. movement range and flawless stride due to scout levels). In total, that's a 33(43). Compare that against... well, jeez, anything of your CR. The Tarrasque at CR 20 only has spot and listen at 17. The Tarrasque would only find you if something horrible were to happen!
I then left a lot of other goodies in this build for causing damage, including Shock Trooper since your lack of ever being found will mean you can sacrifice as much AC as you want while remaining perfectly safe every round. Leap Attack would be a great idea as well. Pick out whatever weapon you like best, and happy hunting!

Arbitrarity
2007-04-04, 03:28 PM
Uhhh... sping attack doesn't let you charge, does it?

Oh cool! You can! It says an attack action, not a standard attack action, so you can do effectively a less than limited charge every round! Coolness!

Move 20 ft, attack, back 20 ft, for example.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-04, 03:35 PM
it works against foes whose special abilities require them to stay still like dwarven defenders, or can only do single actions like zombies, or retreat from a foe without provoking an AOO, or against foes that have huge numbers of attacks, like say a marilith, with having to move to attack you then can only attack once. used properly it's awesome

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 03:50 PM
No, Spring Attack does NOT let you charge. Charging is a full-round action--or a standard action for a partial charge if you only have a standard action, like in a surprise round.

Spring Attack, basically, is almost never a good idea. Maybe if you're, like, a War Hulk.

martyboy74
2007-04-04, 03:56 PM
No, Spring Attack does NOT let you charge. Charging is a full-round action--or a standard action for a partial charge if you only have a standard action, like in a surprise round.

Spring Attack, basically, is almost never a good idea. Maybe if you're, like, a War Hulk.

War Hulk's only really a good idea in gestalt or if you're a hulking hurler.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-04, 03:57 PM
Bah, stupid charging rules. Okay, nix the feat tree for Shock Trooper from my prior build, then. And, hell, Dread Commando starts becoming less useful too. Might want to sack those levels for more scout levels. Pick up weapon finesse as well. Should work fine.

crazedloon
2007-04-04, 04:06 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

NullAshton
2007-04-04, 04:10 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html
Yeah... that's already been mentioned before, near the top. Is a good use for it though.

Quietus
2007-04-04, 04:15 PM
Sorry crazed, you're 17 posts too late.

::Edit:: Congrats Ashton, you're the first person to ninja me!

ken-do-nim
2007-04-04, 04:19 PM
There's this nifty impervious vest in Magic Item Compendium that allows you to put up a blade barrier that you personally can pass through without problem. So ...

your high movement rate character puts up said blade barrier, spring attacks through it to reach foe, then moves back through the barrier and waves, "Come get me".

Lemur
2007-04-04, 04:19 PM
Burrowing creatures, particularly ones that can earth glide (like earth elementals) and incoporeal creatures can both use Spring Attack for some interesting tactics. Of course, opponents will start to ready actions once they wise up, but it's still good for confusing people.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-04, 04:26 PM
Burrowing creatures, particularly ones that can earth glide (like earth elementals) and incoporeal creatures can both use Spring Attack for some interesting tactics. Of course, opponents will start to ready actions once they wise up, but it's still good for confusing people.

Burrowing creatures with Imp. Grab and Swallow Whole and Spring Attack are the worst.

MobiusKlein
2007-04-04, 04:42 PM
Also, try the Unending Flanking.

Start with one Tank attacking creature X.
Opposite the Tank, a series of Rogues slide in, sneak attack via flanking, and Spring away leaving a slot for the next Rogue to sneak attack in.

The Tank fights defensivly, etc, for the best chance to not get hit.

Requires Rogue 6, or Rogue 3 / Fighter 2. It's what all the hip theives guilds doo.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-04, 05:13 PM
Spring Attack is ok if you want to trade one attack at a time with a foe - maybe they've got 4 natural attacks and you've got one greatsword thwack.

Clementx
2007-04-04, 06:44 PM
Spring Attack, basically, is almost never a good idea. Maybe if you're, like, a War Hulk.
Wow, you have never played a Fighter or Fighter/Rogue or something that doesn't want to trade full-attacks. Hell, even as a straight Rogue I would take Spring Attack over TWFing. A second attack in the first round does you no good when you die in the second round. People b!tch and moan about getting a -2 penalty from TWF, but think that attacks coming in at -10 and -15 are still worth something. What a world.

People really overestimate the benefit of full-attacks for anyone but a glass cannon that can't use them or sedentary tanks that can't move anyways. It's nice crushing your enemies, but maintaining proper battlefield positioning while negating the need to make very many Tumble checks (rarely need more than one or two in a couple squares) is more important. Especially when you can do it every round at levels where magic control spells suck. And your control doesn't require saves (for the opposition to negate or your allies to avoid being just as hemmed in).

Rakeesh
2007-04-04, 07:22 PM
For the record (sorry folks, I should've specified) this is for a character concept of a Scout in the Underdark.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 07:41 PM
Wow, you have never played a Fighter or Fighter/Rogue or something that doesn't want to trade full-attacks. Hell, even as a straight Rogue I would take Spring Attack over TWFing. A second attack in the first round does you no good when you die in the second round. People b!tch and moan about getting a -2 penalty from TWF, but think that attacks coming in at -10 and -15 are still worth something. What a world.
I play very solid fighters, thank you. They would absolutely destroy a spring attacker.
People bitch and moan about a -2 penalty compared to THF. The attacks at -10 and -15 are worth something; quite a bit, in fact. A level 20 fighter (not that they exist :smalltongue:) can easily have an AB of, oh, 20 BAB + 12 STR + 5 weapon + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Greater Weapon Focus = +39, add in +2 for flanking for +41. An attack at +31 or +26 against ACs of 30-35? Definitely still good.
At lower levels, ACs are lower, and iterative attacks are useful.
If someone has five attacks (with a Speed weapon or Haste) and hits only three times, they're doing thrice the damage each round that they would be if they were srping attacking.


People really overestimate the benefit of full-attacks for anyone but a glass cannon that can't use them or sedentary tanks that can't move anyways. It's nice crushing your enemies, but maintaining proper battlefield positioning while negating the need to make very many Tumble checks (rarely need more than one or two in a couple squares) is more important. Especially when you can do it every round at levels where magic control spells suck. And your control doesn't require saves (for the opposition to negate or your allies to avoid being just as hemmed in).
Anyone who should be mobile--like rogues--can make Tumble checks easily.
There are no levels at which control spells suck.
Spring Attack is NOT control. It's getting out of harm's way--barely. You're gonna spring, what, 15 feet away from them? Geez, they'll just charge you and hit you harder than you hit them.

Full attacks are where damage come from. Without them, you're only contributing one hit a round, which isn't much.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-04, 07:46 PM
The most lame fight ever was a mind-controlled battle between a Spring-Attacking Rogue/Ftr/Duelist and a Monk who'd bumped up some technical maneuvers.

He disarmed the Spring Attacker. And won. Force the Spring Attacker to burn an action so he can't go full-round, and his entire feat chain is nerfed, as well as having his tactics thrown inexorably off, as from then on you can just press the attack. And it only takes you one of your attacks each round the keep him on the off—trip, disarm are especially nice, and Stunning Fist wrecks 'em. Mobility fighters are good support characters, as they can dart in and out of a fight will larger characters keep them pinned down, but gearing your character completely towards being as a good of an annoyer as possible is unwise.

Mike_G
2007-04-04, 07:47 PM
It's a good tactic for a Scout who has allies.

You need to move 10' to get your bonus damage, so you move, attack, and move away without him getting to attack you. Your ally the tank then moves into melee. If the enemy moves off to attack you, your ally gets an AoO, so generally the enemy will just fight him. You can move in, make your skirmish attack and move away every round.

If the enemy does chase you, your ally gets the AoO, then charges him with Shock Trooper, etc on his turn. You get the AC bonus for moving as a scout anyway, and the enemy can't get multiple attacks on you, since he had to move.

In a one on one fight, it's not so good, unless you want to deny an enemy mutiple attacks. You lose iterative attacks too, but sometimes that's an ok trade. With allies, or against a slow or fixed enemy, it's good.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 07:50 PM
The problem with spring attacking scouts is that their bonus damage is so small. And scouts tend to be dexers, too. So your little mosquito-bite hit is going to be negligible.
You'd do more damage just using archery without skirmish.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-04, 07:58 PM
Or, far better, grab Evasive Reflexes and things like Kharmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Spellcasting Harrier, Defensive Sweep, and the like. Particularly for those of you who grab the feet to allow skirmish to be affected by Ranger levels, to get full BAB and skirmishes. Those 5 ft.-step AoOs don't provoke, and still contribute towards the 10 ft. to get skirmish, if I read correctly. So you only need to pull of one such Evasive AoO, and then take a step on your turn to be dishing a full attack with +xd6 damage.

Zherog
2007-04-04, 08:03 PM
I agree with BWL that generally speaking, Spring Attack is weak. If you can find some way to make more than one attack on a standard action, it gets a little better. And if you can guarantee your opponent will provoke an Attack of Opportunity every time he attacks you, it's not always bad - since you're then trading two hits for one.

Overall, though, I just don't like the scout class. I've always found it to be terribly weak from the moment I first read it. I guess if you were going to play an entire campaign in under 8 levels, it might be OK (since you'll never get iterative attacks anyway). *shrug*

Mike_G
2007-04-04, 08:12 PM
I agree with BWL that generally speaking, Spring Attack is weak. If you can find some way to make more than one attack on a standard action, it gets a little better. And if you can guarantee your opponent will provoke an Attack of Opportunity every time he attacks you, it's not always bad - since you're then trading two hits for one.

Overall, though, I just don't like the scout class. I've always found it to be terribly weak from the moment I first read it. I guess if you were going to play an entire campaign in under 8 levels, it might be OK (since you'll never get iterative attacks anyway). *shrug*

The Scout can't be compared to Fighter subclasses. It's pretty much a Rogue with a different flavor. It's a fine skillmonky option, and the mechanics are clearly designed for a mobility fighter. This works nicely at low levels, and I pretty much hate high level games, since you play a caster or sit at the kiddie table, so I like the Scout fine.

With the right items, the Spring Attack Scout can be effective. Not as a main damage dealer, but as a harassing dealer of damage, and a character who can get through the front line to harass the enemy squishies.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-04, 08:13 PM
I agree with BWL that generally speaking, Spring Attack is weak. If you can find some way to make more than one attack on a standard action, it gets a little better.The PHB2 has a pair of Spring Attack feats; the first lets you attack twice on a spring attack, the second lets you attack 3 times. The prereqs are pretty steep, though; aside from having already sunk a mess of feats into getting spring attack, I know the last one requires BAB +18. The other is probably about BAB +12 or so.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-04, 08:16 PM
My biggest issue with the Scout is that, while skirmish makes you mobile, that generally doesn't matter in a party situation. The Rogue wants full attacks. The Fighter wants full attacks. Even the Cleric probably wants full attacks. The fact that you can prance about doesn't make a tremendous difference if no one else is going to, and since you're probably an archer anyway, you likely don't actually need to move to hit anything. It could probably work in a largely sneaky, partially ToB party, but I just don't see it being as effective as... pretty much anything it's similar to.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-04, 08:18 PM
Move up to your opponent until you're 10' away, smack him with your weapon once, then move away. Whether your opponent charges or uses normal movement to get to you, he'll need to move through a square you threaten (because you have reach), so you take your AoO before he whacks you.

you could just five foot step it away..

Mike_G
2007-04-04, 08:25 PM
My biggest issue with the Scout is that, while skirmish makes you mobile, that generally doesn't matter in a party situation. The Rogue wants full attacks. The Fighter wants full attacks. Even the Cleric probably wants full attacks. The fact that you can prance about doesn't make a tremendous difference if no one else is going to, and since you're probably an archer anyway, you likely don't actually need to move to hit anything. It could probably work in a largely sneaky, partially ToB party, but I just don't see it being as effective as... pretty much anything it's similar to.

The Scout has better survivability than a Rogue who sticks around to get his full attack. If the Fighter nad Rogue flank an enemy, and stay there, the enemy can probably smear the lower AC and HP Rogue pretty fast, eliminating one opponent rather than blunting his sword on the high AC and HP Fighter.

Scouts are skillmonkeys. They are there to spot the bad guys, find the traps, etc. They function as a Rogue. True, a melee Rogue has more Sneak Attack damage than a Scout has Skirmish damage, but if he stands around to take those extra TWF attacks, he's very vulnerable. Plus, the Scout's AC increases when he moves, so all things being equal, the AC and Save bonuses, the Hide In Plain Sight, and the Mobility/Spring Attack tree make the Scout less likely to die in melee. Not a bad trade for less damage.

A skillmonkey's job in combat is to live so he can do his skillmonkey thing for the next room or corridor. That or get a good attack on an unsuspecting enemy. Harassing and wearing down the bad guys is fine contribution from a character who true value is pre combat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 08:29 PM
A good rogue has okay survivability, and can do a lot of damage to a vulnerable enemy (TWF, sneak attack doing twice the damage the Scout does). The rogue will usually be fine if the fight ends quickly, which it's far more likely to with the handfuls of d6es coming from flanking full attacks.

Black Hand
2007-04-04, 08:33 PM
Here's a question: Would you be able to use Spring attack in lieu of the Withdraw manoever? Where with withdrawl you take a full round action to leave the threatened area, but in theory with Spring attack you could get one good smack in and 'run away' (http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/small/HolyGrail184.jpg)

Rakeesh
2007-04-04, 08:35 PM
Hmm. I was overlooking the benefits of Hide in Plain Sight, that sort of thing. Definitely a massive benefit, it seems to me.

It also seems to me that in an Underdark setting, which is perhaps going to be rife with stalagtites, stalagmites, cave walls, pits, that sort of thing, Spring Attack might get some increased utility...

Mike_G
2007-04-04, 08:37 PM
A good rogue has okay survivability, and can do a lot of damage to a vulnerable enemy (TWF, sneak attack doing twice the damage the Scout does). The rogue will usually be fine if the fight ends quickly, which it's far more likely to with the handfuls of d6es coming from flanking full attacks.

If you are a bad guy, and you are flanked by a Rogue and a Fighter, the Rogue using the TWF, Sneak Attack, Flaming/ Shocking shortswords, and the Fighter using the 2HF Power Attack option, you have a tough, armored guy doing lots of damage, and a squishy, poorly armored guy doing lots of damage. Turning your full attack on the Rogue for a round may well take him out, and it's the tactically better thing to do.

Now, if the big guy is PA/2HFing you, and some guy comes out of nowhere, whacks you for some bonus damage, and is gone, would you chase him down, giving up your Full Attack and exposing yourself to a further Charge from the Fighter?

I play Rogues and skillmonkey classes (Scouts, Beguilers, etc) most of the time. I find that surviving a combat against foes who are meant to challenge the tanks is done best by not being around to get hit.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-04, 08:39 PM
Outside of Hide in Plain Sight and cheese like the Spiked Chain, there isn't much use to it. Full attacks are generally a better option in any other instance, and doubly so for any single instance where the character is supposed to be a fighter-type.

But since you're building a scout-type, really take a look at the build I mentioned earlier. To sum things up nicely, take your first level in rogue and then burn your third feat on Swift Ambusher from Complete Scoundrel so that you can have good sneak attack AND skirmish, then take either one or two levels in Shadowdancer (honestly though, I'd only take the second level for darkvision. If you feel you can get along without it or are just going to buy a magical item that can grant it, feel free to skip it). The basic scout levels after this just keep sweetening the deal.

Indon
2007-04-04, 08:46 PM
Hmm. I was overlooking the benefits of Hide in Plain Sight, that sort of thing. Definitely a massive benefit, it seems to me.

It also seems to me that in an Underdark setting, which is perhaps going to be rife with stalagtites, stalagmites, cave walls, pits, that sort of thing, Spring Attack might get some increased utility...

Yeah. Obstacles prevent charging, and so make spring attack much more viable.

Many DM's don't seem to bother with things like non-flat terrain, however.

Mind also that a Scout 3/Rogue X can get sneak attack at X and Skirmish at X+3, with the right feat. Sadly, rogue levels would seem to preclude those high-tier spring attack feats...

cykessa
2007-04-05, 12:26 AM
Our group recently had a member use Spring Attack for the first time ever in the group. She used it several times to move to attack a new foe when the one she was fighting went down on her previous turn. After she attacked the new foe she then moved out of the way so that I (a wizard) could then blast away with an area effect spell. I was able to get several of our opponents without the risk of hitting one of my allies and did more damage then if she had simply moved, attacked and then stayed there. The foe naturally closed ranks with her on their next turn which meant she could then use her full attack option on her next turn. Whether or not this makes it worth taking all of the other feats to get Spring Attack is yet to be seen, but we thought in this situation it worked out pretty well.

Jannex
2007-04-05, 02:18 AM
Basically, if you're playing a scout or other agile skillmonkey type, your goals in combat are as follows:

1. DON'T DIE.

2. Help kill the bad guys.

Spring Attack goes a long way toward helping you accomplish goal #1. Since you're a scout, and your bonus damage (and AC) rely on moving, it also helps out with #2. Hence, it's a good plan.

Now, if you're a heavily-armored tank, and don't care about letting the monsters have a full attack on you every round, it's a lot less useful. But... raise your hand if your hit die is a d8 or smaller, and you only wear light armor. *raises hand* Right. Spring Attack is your friend. At 3/4 BAB progression, your iterative attacks are a lot less interesting anyway.

its_all_ogre
2007-04-05, 04:13 AM
spring attack can also let your allies close with a foe with reach.
you move in and hit, then step 5' to one side, allies use you as cover to move forwards into melee.

Zherog
2007-04-05, 06:52 AM
Basically, if you're playing a scout or other agile skillmonkey type, your goals in combat are as follows:

1. DON'T DIE.

2. Help kill the bad guys.

Honestly? That's everybody's goal in combat.


If you are a bad guy, and you are flanked by a Rogue and a Fighter, the Rogue using the TWF, Sneak Attack, Flaming/ Shocking shortswords, and the Fighter using the 2HF Power Attack option, you have a tough, armored guy doing lots of damage, and a squishy, poorly armored guy doing lots of damage. Turning your full attack on the Rogue for a round may well take him out, and it's the tactically better thing to do.

I've never had a rogue character of mine die; I've had a fighter die, and I've had a wizard die.

You keep talking about rogues as though they have to have low AC. What level are you talking about? Because, really, getting an AC in the 30's isn't hard, and getting one into the 40's only requires a little extra work.

NullAshton
2007-04-05, 07:43 AM
Rogue characters can be heavily armored. One of my crazy ideas is a half-dragon rogue in full plate armor. After all, all that happens is a little armor check penalty, and loss of evasion.

Jannex
2007-04-05, 08:17 AM
Rogue characters can be heavily armored. One of my crazy ideas is a half-dragon rogue in full plate armor. After all, all that happens is a little armor check penalty, and loss of evasion.

My brain just did a little dance and fell over.

I think your play style and mine must be very different. For me, the entire point of a rogue is shiny skills--especially the Dex-based ones that take armor check penalties--and never having to worry about Reflex saves. Also not ever being flat-footed. Don't get me wrong, sneak attack is awesome, but it's not why I play rogues.

Clementx
2007-04-05, 10:03 AM
Bears, you missed several facts about Spring Attack.

You lose the full-attack. So does your enemy. Hell, bears have better full attacks than Fighters at levels where there are suitable challenges. You limit them to a charge, and it requires a lot more feats to be devastating on a charge than to be good with a Spring Attack. Nevermind the fact you assumed completely flat terrain where a Springer can't get out of direct line of charge (which only occurs where your DM is lame and your Springer doesn't invest in movement bonuses). Using a reach weapon (and you don't need a Spiked Chain cheese as other imply), you can still control the battlefield and get two attacks at full BAB for each of his attacks, at worst. Mix in Hold the Line, and you get THREE against his charges when he can make them. As for Haste, it gives you an extra one if you full-attack. It also gives you movement. It is by no means just for full-attackers. Of course, you can just go Dervish by waiting a bit before getting Spring Attack and get the best of both worlds.

You say battlefield control spells don't suck? I didn't either. They have limitation. Web. Nice when you want to block off part of the battlefield. It also blocks your way as well, and protects trapped enemies. Its a really good lvl2 spell. Its also a lvl2 spell. It isn't WIN GAME. Spring Attacking gives melee fighters a customizable, adaptable, and never-ending means to supplement battlefield control in a way that doesn't require your party members to make saves to move through it.

Mike_G
2007-04-05, 01:20 PM
Rogue characters can be heavily armored. One of my crazy ideas is a half-dragon rogue in full plate armor. After all, all that happens is a little armor check penalty, and loss of evasion.

I gotta agree with Jannex.

Skills are the point of a Rogue. Evasion is one of their coolest abilities.

I've seen many melee Rogues get smeared. Ranged attacking Rogues, or Shadowdancer Rogues or Spring Attack Rogues last longer.

Sure, you can boost your AC, but a Fighter starts out 6-8 points ahead of you, before having to buy magic items. He'll still have about double your HP. A bad guy meant to challenge a Fighter in melee should smear a Rogue in melee.

The other advantages of a Scout are the AC and Save bonuses, the Hide in Plain Sight, and the increased move rate. All these things make Spring Attack better, and using it with the Hide or with difficult terrain to foil charges, keeps your squishy, d6-HD-havin' ass alive longer.

As a Fighter, I want to pour on the damage. That's a priority. As a skillmonkey, I want to max my skills, so no plate armor, and not get hit. Damage output is secondary. A Scout with Spring Attack works well for this. Especially if you aren't fighting on a football field where everybody can charge you every round.